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I have the following sources regarding who wrote the words in the book Art of the Deal:
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/264591/donald-trump-didnt-write-art-deal-tony-schwartz/
http://boingboing.net/2016/02/26/450103.html
http://www.showbiz411.com/2011/04/16/donald-trump-forgets-all-his-ghost-writers-and-co-authors
https://twitter.com/tonyschwartz/status/644304700884582400?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
https://books.google.com/books?id=PYbs1THTchMC&pg=PA7
Will Green Cardamom accept any of these as sufficient sources of Tony Schwartz' claim that he wrote all of the words of the book?
(Of course, Trump should be credited as an author of the book, this is only a question of whether he in fact wrote any of the words.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.102.148.66 ( talk) 16:55, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
2604:2000:A100:5D00:230:65FF:FEEF:A464 ( talk) 01:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)ric 2604:2000:A100:5D00:230:65FF:FEEF:A464 ( talk) Since in the book cover, the "Ghostwriter" (see Wikipedia article on "Ghostwriter") name is credited (ie. Trump with Schwartz,) it implies that the ghostwriter did a lot, if not all, of the physical writing. If Schwartz served only as an editor, his name probably would not had been credited. According to the Wikipedia article on "Ghostwriter," the ghostwriter may be just an editor, or the ghostwriter may have written the whole thing. In the Wikipedia article, for celebrity books, it is common in the book industry for the ghostwriter to physically write the whole book. In such cases, the ghostwriter's name is usually credited. It is sort of standard practice in the book industry, so that it is not unusual, and most readers do not consider this a big deal. Specially, when the ghostwriter's name appears on the title page of the book, readers would assume that the ghostwriter did most, if not all, of the physical writing. For the reader to gauge how much input the ghostwriter got from the subject person of the book, some books actually described the relationship between the subject person and the ghost writer. For example, in Lana Turner's book, it was written in the beginning of the book the nature and length of the interview sessions. In my opinion, if a statement is included "that the ghostwriter did all of the physical writing of Trump's book" than it is necessary to include how much interview of the subject person was done, and the nature and length of the interviews and observations. Otherwise, a false implication may be made that the ghostwriter "invented" the whole thing, in which case, the ghostwriter would seem to be some kind of business theory genius to have came up with all of these business acumen all by himself.
2604:2000:A100:5D00:230:65FF:FEEF:A464 ( talk) 01:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)ric 2604:2000:A100:5D00:230:65FF:FEEF:A464 ( talk) Partial facts can be misleading, even though they are facts. It is standard practice in politics to take a short sound bit out of context to disparage opponents.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The proposed edit is here (left side) with the current version on the right. Specifically should this sentence (or some variation) be included:
Journalist
Tony Schwartz has claimed that Trump's involvement in the project was limited to reading the final version before it was published on November 1, 1987 by
Warner Books. (Source:
https://twitter.com/tonyschwartz/status/644304700884582400 )
In the discussion space below please leave a comment or !vote Support for inclusion or Oppose. Per WP:RFC discussions usually remain open for about a month.
Additional sources listed in previous talk section above (note the books.google link is to a vanity press publisher). -- Green C 01:34, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I am adding to my support the following new citation for the assertion that Tony Schwartz claimed to write the book: "Anderson Cooper 360, broadcast March 17, 2016; (at about the 11 minute mark); you can retrieve the video from the following url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVCNXZbvb2c" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.102.148.66 ( talk) 00:35, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Several users have added and removed inclusion of a statement about Peter Ross Range's conclusion that Trump's Art of the Deal has comparisons with Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. The only ref provided for this is a USA Today piece by Range. As this reads as an extraordinary claim, it should have extraordinary sources for inclusion. At a minimum, a piece by someone other than Range commenting on the similarities should be included. If no such RS ref exists, this seems like an undue claim to include in the article at this time. Dialectric ( talk) 16:48, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
Remove it unless corroborating reliable sources can be added. Textbook example of WP:UNDUE. Toohool ( talk) 22:50, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Trump and Hitler proceed from the same apocalyptic starting point. In Trump’s narrative, America is on the brink of ruin.
These political biases are what makes this entry so murky. It seems as if those who are wanting to compare the Art of the Deal to Mein Kampf and associate Trump with Hitler are also the ones suggesting that Trump had nothing to do with the writing of the book at all, which would mean any comparison to Hitler actually fall on the co-author, Tony Schwartz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8080:7207:E048:AD82:DBA:82CC:5BEC ( talk) 18:18, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the following be included in the "Reception" sub-section?
n the discussion space below please leave a comment or !vote Support for inclusion or Oppose. Per WP:RFC discussions usually remain open for about a month. -- Green C 14:33, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
The Trump Series template may confuse some readers insofar as it blurs the distinctions between the logos used by Donald J. Trump for President Inc. and Trump personally.
The text font in the campaign logo used by Donald J. Trump for President Inc. is Franklin Gothic, whereas the text font in the logo Trump uses on his airplane is Arial Black. -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 05:59, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
The New Yorker (obviously a reliable source) just published a complete mea culpa by Schwartz regarding this book. In it, he comes clean about writing the entire book, sanitizing Trump's narcissism, and his word is confirmed by people at the publishing house and others. Here is the link to the story. Without objection, I think the article should be updated to reflect this. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) ( My talkpage) 14:01, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree, and I've included this information in my reorg of the article. I used words and phrases that avoid identifying Trump (or Schwartz) as the author of the book, except in the section where the authorship is discussed. I would argue that the infobox identifying Trump and Schwartz as co-authors remain as it is, however, because that's how the book is credited. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 16:26, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
The article cited clearly states that Schwartz wrote every word of the book. This needs to be reflected in the lede. Additionally, the word "magnate" is, by its very definition, inherently non- neutra. The correct description is "businessman." Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) ( My talkpage) 17:37, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I am aware that wikipedia does not often strive to present an objective view of events and rather aims to cobble together what others say, ( WP:FORUM) however, especially in this circumstance there is little actual evidence given within the said article in question. I think that much of the rush for inclusion falls under WP:SOAP. Inclusion of this amount of material in the article is WP:UNDUE. Liftmoduleinterface ( talk) 01:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I pared down a new info dump into the lede. I removed duplicate info and material which was previously !voted to remove (the Hitler comparison), and moved new info (DT demanding royalties back) to the Development section. The authorship question is now addressed in the lede: in a second paragraph, rather than the opening sentence. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 20:49, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
You are invited to participate in an ongoing talk-page discussion about the lead picture at Donald Trump. -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 06:37, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
The Title. The books title is a statement about his philosophy and even the fact that the book has no deal making art references in it is explained by the title indicating the book you should read to learn Trumps Philosophy was written by Sun Tzu over 2,000 years ago. Scottprovost ( talk) 20:39, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
this article (politico.com 1 June 2018) begins:
section development of the article says
=> imo more accurate: Trump hired Schwartz to write the book (and imo one might mention the good payment Schwartz got). -- Neun-x ( talk) 14:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
References
obrien
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This book describes Trump's Soviet Union trip in 1987 and his interesting in doing business there, per example The Art of the Deal text and other in other refs. Add to See also; Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. X1\ ( talk) 20:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
I think that dates are incredibly important to include when quoting co-authors and critics of the book. Though the book was written in the 1980s, many of those criticizing the book, as well as comments made by the co-authors, did not happen until Donald Trump began his presidential campaign. This leads many to believe that their "change of heart" is based more upon their own political beliefs, or from pressure to distance themselves and their affiliation with Donald Trump. Additionally, many comments inserted into this page have nothing to do with the book at all, or are using loose or obscure quotes in order to present an inauthentic depiction of the facts.
When a restaurant or business suddenly becomes the target of a scandal, Yelp and Google Reviews actively engages in filtering out those leaving inauthentic or politically motivated reviews versus reviews from actual customers so that the business does not garner a skewed score. This page should not be used as a sounding board for individuals who wish to taint the facts based upon their personal political viewpoints.
Certainly I have my political biases as we all do. That is why I encourage moderators to be more scrupulous to not allow these pages to become sounding boards (which it appears it has). That is why I recommend including dates in all criticisms. This book was released over three decades ago yet many of the criticisms have only been made since Trump began his presidential campaign. Including dates will allow readers to make their own judgement. Not including dates can create the false impression that the critic has maintained this same opinion since the book's release. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8080:7207:E048:AD82:DBA:82CC:5BEC ( talk) 18:50, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Please explain your remark "theory of a conspiracy"? This is a surprising comment.
Rob Reiner recently claimed that his wife, Michele Singer, took the photo of Trump on the cover of the book. However, I notice that there are several different editions with different photos, but I assume Reiner is talking about the first edition. However, looking in the book, I don't see any credit for Singer. Does anyone know more about this? Viriditas ( talk) 22:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Trump: The Art of the Deal article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
I have the following sources regarding who wrote the words in the book Art of the Deal:
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/264591/donald-trump-didnt-write-art-deal-tony-schwartz/
http://boingboing.net/2016/02/26/450103.html
http://www.showbiz411.com/2011/04/16/donald-trump-forgets-all-his-ghost-writers-and-co-authors
https://twitter.com/tonyschwartz/status/644304700884582400?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
https://books.google.com/books?id=PYbs1THTchMC&pg=PA7
Will Green Cardamom accept any of these as sufficient sources of Tony Schwartz' claim that he wrote all of the words of the book?
(Of course, Trump should be credited as an author of the book, this is only a question of whether he in fact wrote any of the words.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.102.148.66 ( talk) 16:55, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
2604:2000:A100:5D00:230:65FF:FEEF:A464 ( talk) 01:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)ric 2604:2000:A100:5D00:230:65FF:FEEF:A464 ( talk) Since in the book cover, the "Ghostwriter" (see Wikipedia article on "Ghostwriter") name is credited (ie. Trump with Schwartz,) it implies that the ghostwriter did a lot, if not all, of the physical writing. If Schwartz served only as an editor, his name probably would not had been credited. According to the Wikipedia article on "Ghostwriter," the ghostwriter may be just an editor, or the ghostwriter may have written the whole thing. In the Wikipedia article, for celebrity books, it is common in the book industry for the ghostwriter to physically write the whole book. In such cases, the ghostwriter's name is usually credited. It is sort of standard practice in the book industry, so that it is not unusual, and most readers do not consider this a big deal. Specially, when the ghostwriter's name appears on the title page of the book, readers would assume that the ghostwriter did most, if not all, of the physical writing. For the reader to gauge how much input the ghostwriter got from the subject person of the book, some books actually described the relationship between the subject person and the ghost writer. For example, in Lana Turner's book, it was written in the beginning of the book the nature and length of the interview sessions. In my opinion, if a statement is included "that the ghostwriter did all of the physical writing of Trump's book" than it is necessary to include how much interview of the subject person was done, and the nature and length of the interviews and observations. Otherwise, a false implication may be made that the ghostwriter "invented" the whole thing, in which case, the ghostwriter would seem to be some kind of business theory genius to have came up with all of these business acumen all by himself.
2604:2000:A100:5D00:230:65FF:FEEF:A464 ( talk) 01:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)ric 2604:2000:A100:5D00:230:65FF:FEEF:A464 ( talk) Partial facts can be misleading, even though they are facts. It is standard practice in politics to take a short sound bit out of context to disparage opponents.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The proposed edit is here (left side) with the current version on the right. Specifically should this sentence (or some variation) be included:
Journalist
Tony Schwartz has claimed that Trump's involvement in the project was limited to reading the final version before it was published on November 1, 1987 by
Warner Books. (Source:
https://twitter.com/tonyschwartz/status/644304700884582400 )
In the discussion space below please leave a comment or !vote Support for inclusion or Oppose. Per WP:RFC discussions usually remain open for about a month.
Additional sources listed in previous talk section above (note the books.google link is to a vanity press publisher). -- Green C 01:34, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I am adding to my support the following new citation for the assertion that Tony Schwartz claimed to write the book: "Anderson Cooper 360, broadcast March 17, 2016; (at about the 11 minute mark); you can retrieve the video from the following url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVCNXZbvb2c" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.102.148.66 ( talk) 00:35, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Several users have added and removed inclusion of a statement about Peter Ross Range's conclusion that Trump's Art of the Deal has comparisons with Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. The only ref provided for this is a USA Today piece by Range. As this reads as an extraordinary claim, it should have extraordinary sources for inclusion. At a minimum, a piece by someone other than Range commenting on the similarities should be included. If no such RS ref exists, this seems like an undue claim to include in the article at this time. Dialectric ( talk) 16:48, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
Remove it unless corroborating reliable sources can be added. Textbook example of WP:UNDUE. Toohool ( talk) 22:50, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Trump and Hitler proceed from the same apocalyptic starting point. In Trump’s narrative, America is on the brink of ruin.
These political biases are what makes this entry so murky. It seems as if those who are wanting to compare the Art of the Deal to Mein Kampf and associate Trump with Hitler are also the ones suggesting that Trump had nothing to do with the writing of the book at all, which would mean any comparison to Hitler actually fall on the co-author, Tony Schwartz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8080:7207:E048:AD82:DBA:82CC:5BEC ( talk) 18:18, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the following be included in the "Reception" sub-section?
n the discussion space below please leave a comment or !vote Support for inclusion or Oppose. Per WP:RFC discussions usually remain open for about a month. -- Green C 14:33, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
The Trump Series template may confuse some readers insofar as it blurs the distinctions between the logos used by Donald J. Trump for President Inc. and Trump personally.
The text font in the campaign logo used by Donald J. Trump for President Inc. is Franklin Gothic, whereas the text font in the logo Trump uses on his airplane is Arial Black. -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 05:59, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
The New Yorker (obviously a reliable source) just published a complete mea culpa by Schwartz regarding this book. In it, he comes clean about writing the entire book, sanitizing Trump's narcissism, and his word is confirmed by people at the publishing house and others. Here is the link to the story. Without objection, I think the article should be updated to reflect this. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) ( My talkpage) 14:01, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree, and I've included this information in my reorg of the article. I used words and phrases that avoid identifying Trump (or Schwartz) as the author of the book, except in the section where the authorship is discussed. I would argue that the infobox identifying Trump and Schwartz as co-authors remain as it is, however, because that's how the book is credited. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 16:26, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
The article cited clearly states that Schwartz wrote every word of the book. This needs to be reflected in the lede. Additionally, the word "magnate" is, by its very definition, inherently non- neutra. The correct description is "businessman." Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) ( My talkpage) 17:37, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I am aware that wikipedia does not often strive to present an objective view of events and rather aims to cobble together what others say, ( WP:FORUM) however, especially in this circumstance there is little actual evidence given within the said article in question. I think that much of the rush for inclusion falls under WP:SOAP. Inclusion of this amount of material in the article is WP:UNDUE. Liftmoduleinterface ( talk) 01:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I pared down a new info dump into the lede. I removed duplicate info and material which was previously !voted to remove (the Hitler comparison), and moved new info (DT demanding royalties back) to the Development section. The authorship question is now addressed in the lede: in a second paragraph, rather than the opening sentence. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 20:49, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
You are invited to participate in an ongoing talk-page discussion about the lead picture at Donald Trump. -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 06:37, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
The Title. The books title is a statement about his philosophy and even the fact that the book has no deal making art references in it is explained by the title indicating the book you should read to learn Trumps Philosophy was written by Sun Tzu over 2,000 years ago. Scottprovost ( talk) 20:39, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
this article (politico.com 1 June 2018) begins:
section development of the article says
=> imo more accurate: Trump hired Schwartz to write the book (and imo one might mention the good payment Schwartz got). -- Neun-x ( talk) 14:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
References
obrien
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This book describes Trump's Soviet Union trip in 1987 and his interesting in doing business there, per example The Art of the Deal text and other in other refs. Add to See also; Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. X1\ ( talk) 20:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
I think that dates are incredibly important to include when quoting co-authors and critics of the book. Though the book was written in the 1980s, many of those criticizing the book, as well as comments made by the co-authors, did not happen until Donald Trump began his presidential campaign. This leads many to believe that their "change of heart" is based more upon their own political beliefs, or from pressure to distance themselves and their affiliation with Donald Trump. Additionally, many comments inserted into this page have nothing to do with the book at all, or are using loose or obscure quotes in order to present an inauthentic depiction of the facts.
When a restaurant or business suddenly becomes the target of a scandal, Yelp and Google Reviews actively engages in filtering out those leaving inauthentic or politically motivated reviews versus reviews from actual customers so that the business does not garner a skewed score. This page should not be used as a sounding board for individuals who wish to taint the facts based upon their personal political viewpoints.
Certainly I have my political biases as we all do. That is why I encourage moderators to be more scrupulous to not allow these pages to become sounding boards (which it appears it has). That is why I recommend including dates in all criticisms. This book was released over three decades ago yet many of the criticisms have only been made since Trump began his presidential campaign. Including dates will allow readers to make their own judgement. Not including dates can create the false impression that the critic has maintained this same opinion since the book's release. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8080:7207:E048:AD82:DBA:82CC:5BEC ( talk) 18:50, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Please explain your remark "theory of a conspiracy"? This is a surprising comment.
Rob Reiner recently claimed that his wife, Michele Singer, took the photo of Trump on the cover of the book. However, I notice that there are several different editions with different photos, but I assume Reiner is talking about the first edition. However, looking in the book, I don't see any credit for Singer. Does anyone know more about this? Viriditas ( talk) 22:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)