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Archive 35 | ← | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | Archive 41 |
Romania did everything the Nazis did. The Nazis weren't unique. Fundamentally, in principle, Romania was on par. Granted, in scale there is no comparison. I honestly can't stand the "Nazi absolutism" at play here. The prevailing notion that Hitler always led the way, when in fact it was Romania having the most antisemitic legislation before Barbarossa started, and indeed, actually spearheaded the Holocaust for at least the first 2 months of Barbarossa, per Hitler's own account. Romania was killing Jewish women and children more than a month before the Nazis started to do so. All of this is duly sourced, it's in the article, kindly go give it a read.
You think what I'm doing is to radical? Trust me, I'm (still) holding back, a small fear that if I go too hard in one fell swoop it will all be reverted. But yes, we should have more of Romania in the heading, the sections, and the infobox. That part in the Barbarossa section, stating that the Nazis started going after women and children from 1 August? Yeah uhh, Romania had been doing that for over a month! And I'd add this there for context.
I am very familiar with the - to put it mildly - lackluster Holocaust memory in Romania. With the public cult of war criminals - street names, monuments and the like - including Antonescu. But then, I look at us, over here in the West. We expect the Romanians to be impacted, we keep reminding them of the Wiesel Commission report which states that Romania was the 2nd greatest perpetrator. And yet...What would a Romanian, checking out this article, be seeing? Nazi this and Nazi that, oh and look here, a few lines on Romania, like a footnote, almost like an afterthought. You see, Romania was the second greatest perpetrator. Not only that, it was the only other "full package" perpetrator country, and for a while, at the beginning, the biggest perpetrator. And it's high time we start acting like it. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 11:24, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
I wish to add two brief statements from my original attempt in Romania's section, those sourced to Hilberg and stone. And to add (such as Romania) next to "its collaborators". Am I asking too much still? Transylvania1916 ( talk) 14:46, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Can I add some of this info in the Romania section of the Responsability article? Look, it's just that I spent time and effort digging these up and wording them, I want something to come of it... Transylvania1916 ( talk) 15:12, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Why is the Holocaust the exclusive domain of the Nazis? Why is Romania lumped together as a "collaborator" when it didn't collaborate, implementing its own plan instead? Why is all this allowed? How on Earth is it fair to nit-pick on my sources - which I do make sure always come from academic publishers - when there are books-worth of unsourced content on the Wiki? Why do you think it's fair to revert my hours worth of work with a few despicably dismissive words then be surprised when I naturally react? Why you despicably dismissively revert all my work, and don't make the slightest attempt to salvage anything? Why am I even bothering to write this, when I know that you people are too dense to understand what I'm saying? Why do you hit me with a WP:Something instead of talking to me like a normal human, a dignity which I do afford you? Why is "the consensus" only interested in perpetual stagnation? Why do I even bother?... Transylvania1916 ( talk) 21:58, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Buidhe - Please explain in more details why the long-standing image of Pilecki has been removed [1] and what precisely is undue in this long-standing version. Let's start with this one. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 04:44, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Buidhe - I disagree. You need to build consensus for your massive changes. I’m going to revert you (already done by different user). Please discuss line by line. Thanks -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 05:18, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
It reads:
Notable massacres include the July 1941 Ponary massacre near Vilnius (Soviet Lithuania), in which Einsatgruppe B and Lithuanian collaborators shot 72,000 Jews and 8,000 non-Jewish Lithuanians and Poles.
Please take a peek at the Ponary massacre article. The victims are listed as follow:
Where are non-Jewish Lithuanians come from? I would like to see a quotation, particularly regarding non-Jewish Lithuanians. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 05:26, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
@ User:EnlightenmentNow1792 - In light of your edit - [2] I’m requesting a quotation from the source you evidently based your edit on [1] (Stone page 2-3). Pinging User:Ealdgyth as well. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 02:02, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
"For the purpose of this book, the Holocaust is understood as the genocide of the Jews, as they were defined by the Nazi regime, during World War II and, importantly, as a key part of Germany's war effort. Europe's Romany (Gypsy) population was also the victim of genocide under the Nazis. Many other population groups, notably Poles, Ukrainians, and Soviet prisoners of war were killed in huge numbers, and smaller groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Black Germans, and homosexuals suffered terribly under Nazi rule."Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 02:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
understood as ... the genocide of the Jews". While I'm nitpicking, "especially" has a connotation that makes it unsuitable here. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 03:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
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Why in the first paragraph, it is written "Some six million jews" Instead of "Around six million jews"? רם אבני ( talk) 01:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
I see now that this debate had come up before and that the article does at least get around eventually to a discussion of the Gentile victims of the Holocaust deeper in with specific sections on various groups.
The problem is that the masses, googling "the Holocaust" for the first time, are going to read the first line and think "Ok: that's the basic story [and scope] of what happened," which is totally erroneous.
With nothing like a total scholarly consensus (and frankly it wouldn't change the inaccuracy even if there *were* one), it seems to me either absurdly pedantic or clearly slanted to insist on the nonmention of the nonJewish victims in the first sentence which is, for good or ill, the only sentence many readers will ever read.
Exactly the young and uneducated people who are already beginning to have the impression that only Jews were killed in the Holocaust.
In another 75 years of heading the current direction we're going the nonJewish victims will be considered an "alternative fact."
If most mainstream scholars had somehow come to the agreement that the Holocaust never in fact took place, is that what Wikipedia should reflect?
Obviously not.
It should reflect the truth.
Ya know: the actual, rational, reasonable empirical truth of the basic factual reality of an event for which we have no other name in common parlance.
Not just the most popular opinion. 97.115.170.34 ( talk) 14:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
> Perhaps you should try reading as far as the fourth paragraph.
as much as you might wish otherwise, not everyone is going to do that. the jewish death toll is in the first paragraph but, i had to go to a separate article to find the total number of deaths.
i personally see no reason that should be the case. it seems like the most significant number would be how many people died, and that doesn't seem to be easily accessible anywhere. Binarycat64 ( talk) 19:02, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
As another user noted, it's simply disgraceful the lack of mention for gays, gypsies, blacks, Jehovah's Witnesses, Slavs, the disabled, etc. It's an insult to these groups to not treat them as equally worth mention in the first paragraph along with the Jewish death toll. Mleonard85032 ( talk) 01:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
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Suggesting to make an addition to a sentence.
Original: The Holocaust is understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews, but during the Holocaust era[8] (1933–1945), systematic mass-killings of other population groups occurred, including Roma, Poles, Ukrainians and Soviet civilians and prisoners of war.
Suggestion: The Holocaust is understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews, but during the Holocaust era[8] (1933–1945), systematic mass-killings of other population groups occurred, including Roma, Serbs, Poles, Ukrainians and Soviet civilians and prisoners of war.
The Serbs were also targeted during this war - see article on Jasenovac concentration camp. 2607:FEA8:1E63:3A00:250C:406E:DE77:FB56 ( talk) 04:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
among other targeted populationsis suitable, as editors in that discussion expressed interest in phrasing it to be more original. I will do so momentarily.
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Please add a link to the White Ruthenia under the Romani section.
White Ruthenia is not very well known so a link to its page is recommended. Aayaffe ( talk) 10:16, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Could we edit the death toll on the right tab to reflect the 5 million non-Jews killed in the Holocaust? i.e. "Deaths" would say "6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews"? Especially since the persecution of non-Jews is mentioned later in the article, without a specific toll.
Philoquaker ( talk) 22:10, 26 June 2022 (UTC) Philoquaker
I wish to return to an earlier version of the end of the lead:
The European Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event during the Holocaust era (1933–1945), [1] in which Germany and its collaborators persecuted and murdered millions of others, including ethnic Poles, Soviet civilians and prisoners of war, the Roma, the disabled, political and religious dissidents, and gay men. [2]
It's a better description, besides it had been changed
by a blocked editor.
"Political and religious opponents" is way better than just Jehovah's Witnesses, Black Germans were rarely targeted.
References
RF354 ( talk) 09:21, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
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Change "including, according to David Cesarani" to just "including" as mentioning the name of the historian casts doubt on his opinion and implies that his statement is contentious which it clearly isn't Originalcola ( talk) 02:59, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
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Nythar
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It may help the article to include Lewi Stone's analysis of Operation Reinhard. Analyzing railway transportation records, Stone found that 25% (1.47+ million) of all Jews murdered in the Holocaust died during the 100-day Operation, arguing that it was more violent than relatively recent genocides and yielded a kill-rate ten times higher than some authorities have estimated for the Holocaust. ScissorMeRamses ( talk) 01:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
17 million people died in the holocaust but the other 11 million get even less coverage. 125.238.231.204 ( talk) 06:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
In this section of the lede, I think the word smaller is a bit dismissive of the suffering of these groups. The Holocaust is understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews, but during the Holocaust era (1933–1945), systematic mass-killings of other population groups occurred. These included Roma, Poles, Ukrainians, Soviet civilians and prisoners of war, and other targeted populations. Smaller groups were also victims of deadly Nazi persecution, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Black Germans, disabled people, and homosexuals. Could we just replace smaller with the word Other? Or if we have to reflect total numbers, how about Other less numerically smaller groups, or Other groups in smaller numbers? Incidentally smaller is presumed here to reflect total numbers, e.g., some sources state that percentage wise the Roma were the largest group of victims. Pngeditor ( talk) 10:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
No, this article is also about other victims as well. I think you misunderstand; 'smaller' here can easily be interpreted as the number of victims, and it is not required, so it can be removed without disrupting the meaning. We only need to say other groups. Otherwise we should give numbers for all groups. Smaller can easily be perceived as implying that total numbers are meant as opposed to percentages. Why take that risk? Pngeditor ( talk) 09:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
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HI everyone.
May I suggest to include in the introduction a wikilink, in a new line, to the page photography of the Holocaust?
It would be nice to have a direct link to all the photage available (available in the page itself, through the navbox at the bottom).
Thank you. LucaLindholm ( talk) 21:46, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
There were some problems with citations in the recent copy of content from World War II casualties of the Soviet Union. I've fixed the main problem with the citation itself (which can now be found as "Filimoshin, M.V" in Works cited), but the paragraph of copied content had various orphaned {{ sfn}}s, because the editor who added the content here included the {{ sfn}}s from the original, but not citations they referred to from the Works cited of the source article. I've fixed up the Filimoshin orphans, but there are also some Krivosheev 2001 orphans which I haven't and are still orphans, and there may be others. Mathglot ( talk) 09:15, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Romania already has its own sub-section in the "Germany's allies" section, but I argue even that isn't enough. I plan to elevate it to a full section, which would be a miniature version of all that is said about Germany: background, road to the Holocaust, extermination phases and methods etc. Romania's track record of antisemitism had no match in Europe before the Nazis, with Nazi-like laws of state employment and usage of Yiddish going back to the 19th century. Romania was also the last country in Europe to give citizenship to its Jews. Finally, as already stated in the article, Romania was the only country that matched Nazi Germany, in principle if not in quantity, "all the steps of the destruction process", the only other country during the Holocaust that truly did its own thing, as it were. This is only an idea as of now, but I'd like to hear some opinions. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 20:42, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
The Holocaust was the persecution of various ethnic groups, but primarily Jews. You can see here that there is probably around 15 million victims in total, if it is around the low end estimate: /info/en/?search=Holocaust_victims
It should be mentioned in the lede that it was a state-sponsored "ethnic cleansing" of various ethnicities, but of course Jews were the primary target. It is kind of weird that this is not mentioned in the lede section, considering how vital this article is. 2003:F0:F30:C00:F8CF:CA1C:AA4A:D408 ( talk) 19:16, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
I was going to respond to the previous section ("Six million...") by pointing to the FAQ, and was surprised not to see one. I think creating one will save everybody a lot of time, and that would surely be one of the top three or five questions. The The in the title (also above) being another of the top five. Mathglot ( talk) 00:21, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
I think this page should belong only to Category:The Holocaust or at least avoid over-categorizing. This is because the Category:The Holocaust already belongs to all necessary categories, such as Category:Antisemitism in Europe, etc. In addition, see my edit summary here. My very best wishes ( talk) 01:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
The name of the article as of 26/8/2022 is "The Holocaust". However most other Wikipedia article titles don't have "the"٫ and this should be no different. I understand it might be to avoid leading the reader to believe that it's not a matter of "A Holocaust" but rather of "The Holocaust". But like I said earlier٫ if you look at pretty much any other Wikipedia title٫ they don't use "the". GenZenny ( talk) 03:18, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
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Dear Wikipedia editors it has come to my attention that you have failed to mention the six million head that died in the camps.
There is a serious problem of lack of holocaust awareness in the world 72.76.155.3 ( talk) 14:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
The picture shows 'Jews from Subcarpathian Rus (then part of Hungary)'. The caption 'Hungarian Jews' may be unsourced. Xx236 ( talk) 09:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Block evasion by User:HarveyCarter. |
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Even Sir Martin Gilbert, a Zionist historian, confirmed the Holocaust did not begin until the summer of 1941: https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/churchill_holocaust_01.shtml JamesEdwardson ( talk) 11:53, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
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There may be an incorrect geographic term in the article. In the section "Invasion of the Soviet Union (22 June 1941)" under the title "Mass shootings" in the 5th paragraph it is written "Einsatzgruppe C in the Ukraine with Army Group South". The term "The Ukraine" is not advised, using "Ukraine" would be better, in fact, it's even advised by the page "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Ukranian places)" So, if other editors agree that this is a mistake, Someone with editing rights should fix it. 83.178.143.2 ( talk) 13:59, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure I really get what the first explanatory note is trying to do. It seems half of those sources are for establishing that the term "Holocaust" refers specifically to the genocide of Jews (and not e.g. Roma), but that's not really relevant to the sentence it is attached to, which doesn't actually use the term "Holocaust". And it seems the other half of the sources are for establishing due weight for describing the death toll as "some six million", by quoting other sources who do the same. I can kind of get the point of that, though wouldn't it be better to actually explain the context and reasoning behind quoting that figure? For instance, like we do in §Death toll:
The most commonly cited death toll is the six million given by Adolf Eichmann to SS member Wilhelm Höttl, who signed an affidavit mentioning this figure in 1945.[420][ac] Historians' estimates range from 4,204,000 to 7,000,000.[422] According to Yad Vashem, "[a]ll the serious research" confirms that between five and six million Jews were murdered.[ac]
To me something along those lines would be more informative, particularly given I'm not entirely sure what the point of the note is at the moment. I guess it's just "yes this is due" source dumps, but is there not a better way to present that? Endwise ( talk) 07:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Having got no response, I'm going to boldly attempt a fix for the problem mentioned above. Here's what I'll do:
Endwise ( talk) 03:56, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
More eyes needed at the Journal of Historical Review, a holocaust denial publication by the Institute for Historical Review. There is discussion as to whether this should be categorised as an academic journal, and whether we should use the template for academic journals. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Well yes the Holocaust was mostly killing Jewish people, there was more to that, the list of “types” of people they killed includes but is not limited to; LQBTQ+, the mentally ill, and disabled along with those deemed “ugly” by societies beauty standards, please correct this to stop any misconception from spreading, especially because this website is meant to educate others and not spread misinformation. Raccoon dude111 ( talk) 02:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
In his account of the coronation of Richard the Lionheart in 1189, English chronicler Richard of Devizes was the first person to use the word holocaust when he described the mass murder of the Jews of London, although the use of this word simply refers to a " whole (holos) burnt (kaustos)" sacrificial offering to a god. [1] 86.187.237.124 ( talk) 22:02, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
The Holocaust is not my topic but just stumbled over this article. So just a FYI:
Grabowski, Jan; Klein, Shira (9 February 2023). "Wikipedia's Intentional Distortion of the History of the Holocaust". The Journal of Holocaust Research.
-- Jo1971 ( talk) 09:01, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
Are the issues in this gonna be addressed? https://forward.com/news/536276/new-research-documents-how-wikipedia-distorts-the-holocaust/
66.31.80.7 ( talk) 21:08, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
References
I've just Googled 'when did the Holocaust begin' and in the information panel that Google displays alongside search results was the phrase "Deaths: around 6 million Jews", which came from this Wikipedia article.
Two things struck me: 1. "around 6 million Jews" could be worded better I think. It is not encyclopaedic language and the word "around" has a "more or less" ring to it. That's fine if you're talking about what time you usually eat dinner ('around 6pm') or the price of a cup of coffee ('around 2 dollars'). This is talking about people's lives and I think "approximately 6 million Jewish people" or "estimated 6 million Jewish people" would be vastly preferable. 2. While Jewish people were the principal focus of the Nazi Holocaust, they were not the sole focus. Therefore "6 million Jewish people" should be edited (by someone more knowledgeable on the topic than me) to acknowledge that other groups were also targeted (either by being less specific or being more specific). 2A01:4C8:140A:C751:B501:B769:D156:601E ( talk) 22:36, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
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In the section on Romania the word "Transnistria" should link to " Transnistria Governorate". 93.72.49.123 ( talk) 01:20, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Academic sources have exposed that Wikipedia is purposely tainting the truth of the Holocaust. You guys are minimizing the Jewish losses and genocide against the Jewish people. The way I see it extended-confirming this article is pointless in protecting sockpuppetry as the most high-level people know how to avoid it, making them blend in with top-editors. Can you please explain why the holocaust is purposely being distorted to push an agenda on ethnic Poles being the victims while the truth is Jews of Poland were the primary target and not the ethnic Poles. 71.95.53.132 ( talk) 22:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
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Change ‘genocide of 6 million Jews during World War II’ to ‘genocide of 11 million people during World War II’ and include a link to the detailed victim count 86.31.149.143 ( talk) 23:31, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
There's a tag requesting a transcription for the word Shoah in the first article. I also think there should be a pronunciation listed. I suggest the IPA transcription /'ʃoʊ.ə/, as that's the one I've heard most often. If there's a more common or accepted pronunciation, that should be added in its place. Aykazeb ( talk) 21:49, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
The link from "Ivangorod, Ukraine" points to Ivangorod, Russia. So either the link is wrong(most likely) or the caption is wrong. 2A00:A041:2D23:DC00:46ED:CEA7:93A:6FBB ( talk) 23:17, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Essay introduction and infobox written Genocide of European Jews while North African Jews were also killed in the Holocaust. Parham wiki ( talk) 12:35, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
... If Holocaust means mass murder, then a “Holocaust” did not occur in North Africa. The history of the Jews in this period should correctly be discussed under the threat of a looming Holocaust which did not materialize. However, if what we mean by the Holocaust also includes the series of stages that (in Europe) preceded actual mass murder – e.g., concentrating the Jews in specific areas, stripping the Jews of their professions, despoiling the Jews of their property and material wealth, and depriving the Jews of their liberty by sending them to labor and other camps, then …. we are face to face with the looming Holocaust in its preliminary stages with all the considerable suffering involved.I think a paragraph or two about this would be a useful addition. --jpgordon 𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 13:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
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In this phrase:
In December 1942, the United Nations adopted a joint declaration condemning the systematic murder of Jews.
the words "United Nations" are linked to United Nations. This organisation didn't exist until 1945. As you can see at United Nations (disambiguation), the Allies of World War II were frequently known as the "United Nations" at the time.
With this in mind, please change [[United Nations]] to [[Allies of World War II|United Nations]]. 123.51.107.94 ( talk) 00:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
A study conducted by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) in 2021 showed that out of 1,028 pieces of content o Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Telegram and TikTok, 16.4 % either denied or distorted the history of the Holocaust. Figure 3 compares the proportion of content on each platform containing themes of Holocaust denial or distortion. On Facebook 8% of the content related to the Holocaust either denies or distorts it. That’s 3% of the Holocaust related content on Instagram, 49% on Telegram, 17% on TikTok and 19% on Twitter. [1]
While on some platforms (such as Facebook and Instagram), the proportions are relatively small, they are nevertheless significant in light of the enormous volume of content that is published on these platforms. Furthermore, the proportion of Holocaust denial and distortion may be underestimated on image-reliant platforms such as Instagram that rely on using CrowdTangle to research hashtags and keywords. This methodology does not identify these terms if they are represented in the image alone.
Secondly, across three of the platforms reviewed (Telegram, Twitter and TikTok), the proportion of Holocaust denial and distortion is relatively large – indeed on Telegram it approaches 50 per cent of the content reviewed. On this platform in particular, users who are looking for accurate and reliable content on that period in history have a high chance of encountering material that denies or distorts the Holocaust.
Holocaust denial and distortion are an issue in all the languages in question. Each platform, however, reveals different patterns. Facebook had comparable amounts of denial and distortion content in German, English and French, but none in Spanish. On Instagram, the small amount of Holocaust denial and distortion found was almost exclusively in English. On Telegram, all languages showed a high prevalence but German was particularly striking, with over 80 per cent of all German language content reviewed either denying or distorting the Holocaust. This chimes with other research claiming that German-language Telegram hosts conspiracy theories and misinformation, which is especially concerning as the number of German-language Telegram users continues to increase. [2] On TikTok, French was the language that contained most denial and distortion. This was partly driven by the popularity of antisemitic French comic Dieudonné on the platform. On Twitter, the significant amount of problematic content was relatively equal across all languages. While no content relating to denial or distortion was found in Spanish on Facebook or in French on Instagram, this does not mean that Holocaust denial and distortion are nonexistent on online platforms in these languages. Considering that only approximately 200 pieces of content were reviewed per language for each platform over a period of about a week through a keyword search, it is not necessarily the case that there is no content that denies and distorts the Holocaust in these languages, but simply that the prevalence of this content is too low to be uncovered in a small sample. Other studies, such as the Anti-Defamation League’s report, “Holocuento y otras mentiras”: El antisemitismo en español en Facebook [“The Holohoax and other lies”: Antisemitism in Spanish on Facebook], suggest that moderation is actually a lot less effective on non-English content. [3]
Lisa Rechelle ( talk) 09:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
References
I can see that there was some discussion of it and one resolved issue that (I think) is supposed to broaden the definition, but it doesn't seem that great to me. If you go back in the archives there's some great points which explain why extermination of Jews in particular should be the main topic of the article and I totally agree with it. Where I now have the issue is that at the moment the article defines the Holocaust as the extermination of Jews and Jews only. This is:
a) inconsistent with the page itself, which later does talk about other groups targeted (e.g. LGBTQ people, Roma people, Poles, Russians, etc.),
b) inconsistent with " Holocaust victims" - how can the Holocaust be only about Jews and somehow Holocaust victims be a larger group - it's a major inconsistency between articles.
c) (I'd say, with my knowledge of history) simply not true, as the Nazis targeted more than just one group with their policies, even in the same ways - as in, for example talking about certain groups destroying Germany and mentioning other groups than Jews as being "detrimental" (or said differently), e.g. LGBTQ people
d) feels exclusionary to people whose families and places experienced the Holocaust, but who were not of Jewish origin or did/do not identify with the Jewish identity - e.g. Polish people, whose families have been exterminated, etc.
e) seems historically and societally significant, as it shows hate (and in this case a very extreme form of it) going outside a particular group or its feature to a broader category of people deemed "worse" or otherwise "lesser", especially in the context of this being the top website listed after Googling "Holocaust".
Given that, I'd suggest framing the article in a way that clearly states the predominant impact of antisemitism and antisemitic narratives on the development of the Holocaust, and the fact that it predominantly targeted Jews, while understanding and acknowledging the fact that other groups were deeply affected and also targeted. I'd suggest adding a death toll for these groups and writing in the entry something along the lines of "[...] was the genocide of European Jews, together with other minorities and ethnicities in occupied territories, during World War II.". This could even be done on it's own, leaving the rest of the article focused on Jews, since I believe that way it frames the issue quite accurately.
P.S. I'm new to Wikipedia editing, so pls be understanding if I messed up some terminology or this issue has been settled for good, etc.
Chrisludw (
talk) 19:31, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
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The first 3-4 paragraphs of this article identify the Holocaust as only the murder of Jews. But let's be clear, the Nazis first came for leftists--communists, socialists, trade unionists. And the Holocaust included the decimation of many minorities and other ethnicities in the region--the Polish, Russians, etc. The current iteration on Wikipedia is SHOCKINGLY misleading. 76.37.232.1 ( talk) 03:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
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The lead should be updated this should be replaced,
Besides the Jews, Germany and its collaborators persecuted and murdered millions of others, including Poles, Soviet prisoners of war, the Roma, the disabled, political and religious dissidents, and gay men.
with what Buidhe put in the death toll section,
Historian Alex J. Kay estimates that including Jewish Holocaust victims, around 13 million people died as a result of Nazi mass killings, including "300,000 mentally and physically disabled people, up to 100,000 members of the Polish ruling classes and elites... 200,000 European Roma, at least 2 million residents of Soviet cities, up to 3.3 million Soviet POWs, around 1 million unarmed civilians in primarily rural areas during preventive terror operations and reprisals in the occupied territories (even after accounting for actual partisans among the dead), and another 185,000 civilian residents of Warsaw".[348]
As that source is 1 year old and not more then 10 years old. Are you going to update that @ Buidhe:? Dan white 76 ( talk) 19:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
During my work on another article, I found something unexpected. It is generally believed that due to the Nazi racial laws any sexual contacts between Germans and Jews were strictly prohibited, so the mass murder of Jews, as a rule, was not accompanied by mass rapes. However, in this detailed study, the author states that whereas consensual sexual contacts between Germans and Jews (and only within the borders of the Reich) were considered a violation of racial laws, rape or other forms of sexual abuse and humiliation were not prohibited. The situation was especially terrible in the occupied Eastern Europe.
Using numerous documents and testimonies, the author demonstrates that mass rape and various forms of sexual violence were the essential component of deportation and execution of Jews. I think we may consider incorporation of this information into the article. Paul Siebert ( talk) 04:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
This article needs to be shortened to give readers a concise summary of the topic and to meet Wikipedia guidelines for article length. In addition, there are prominent aspects of the Holocaust that are not currently present in the article.
Nazi human experimentation has its own article and as stated in the edit summary affected only an infintestimal proportion of Holocaust victims, while many experimentation victims were not Jewish. A quick persual of the high quality, recent sources listed at the top of this talk page shows that giving it a unique section is clearly undue weight compared to the coverage in these sources. ( t · c) buidhe 03:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
In the interest of focusing on specific content, please use the following sections to discuss: ( t · c) buidhe 19:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
[7] Nazi human experimentation has its own article and as stated in the edit summary affected only an infintestimal proportion of Holocaust victims, while many experimentation victims were not Jewish. A quick persual of the high quality, recent sources listed at the top of this talk page shows that giving it a unique section is clearly undue weight compared to the coverage in these sources. ( t · c) buidhe 03:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
[8] Aktion T4 is not part of the article scope (see above discussions). ( t · c) buidhe 19:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
[9] These features don't actually distinguish the Holocaust from other genocides and the paragraph is extra confusing to readers, because many of the statements in this paragraph apply only to German Jews and not Holocaust victims from other countries. Additionally, most Wikipedia articles about historical topics start with a background section because it is confusing to readers to put historiographical debates (such as comparison with other genocides) before giving them the main information on the event itself. ( t · c) buidhe 19:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
[10] Scholars have identified many factors that impacted survival rates, such as assimilation of the Jewish community, geography, attitudes of local non-Jews, and opportunities to emigrate before the killing began. To not even mention these and just cover in depth the theory that credits it entirely to state existence—without even mentioning the obvious counter-examples such as Slovakia—is obviously POV. ( t · c) buidhe 05:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
[11] If there is going to be a table that lists deaths per country, there is no need to duplicate this information in prose. It would be worthwhile to add a couple sentences on *why* the death rate varied, but just giving non-contexualized figures is not very informative. ( t · c) buidhe 06:18, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Why was Template:Infobox civilian attack removed? We the infobox on articles about several other genocides (i. e. California genocide, Circassian genocide, Armenian genocide, Rwandan genocide). CJ-Moki ( talk) 04:55, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
this latest rewrite is totally bellitling the effect of the Holocaust in Europe in WW2 Did it not happen in the Baltics and Eastern Europe? It does not explain the Holocaust country by country or its effects I am personally disappointed with this latest version I wont be back to use oy as a point of reference or research. 82.132.184.31 ( talk) 01:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Borsoka ( talk · contribs) 12:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
(Criteria marked are unassessed)
A highly sensitive theme that requires much attention. I planning to complete the review in a week. I have one preliminary question: why are not Zionism, the establishment of the State of Israel and Holocaust denial mentioned in the article? Borsoka ( talk) 12:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
I will continue my review. Borsoka ( talk) 03:21, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
I do not currently have access to Kweit 1997/2001 to find out more about where this estimate comes from. ( t · c) buidhe 04:36, 18 May 2023 (UTC)For the figure of between 200,000 and 250,000, see Dieter Pohl, Holocaust. Die Ursachen, das Geschehen, die Folgen (Freiburg im Breisgau: Herder, 2000), p. 124; Wendy Lower, Hi t l e r ’s Furies: German Women in the Nazi Killing Fields (Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2013), p. 244, n. 154. For the figure of more than 500,000, see Konrad Kwiet, ‘Rassenpolitik und Völkermord’, in Wolfgang Benz, Hermann Graml and Hermann Weiß, eds, Enzyklopädie des Nationalsozialismus (Munich: dtv, 2001 [1997]), pp. 50–65, here p. 62
I will continue the review later. Borsoka ( talk) 03:40, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
I will continue the review on Sunday afternoon or Monday morning. Borsoka ( talk) 03:25, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
Thank you so much for your review. ( t · c) buidhe 07:26, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
References
I realize this is a subject that gets raised over and over again at this talk page. Editors have decided, based on the preponderance of reliable sources, that the primary topic of "the Holocaust" is the genocide of Jews, rather than being inclusive of all victims of Nazi persecution. Unfortunately, the article itself muddles its own topic and tries to have it both ways.
My concrete proposal is to remove the section "Other victims of Nazi persecution" and instead add a hatnote as follows:
This scope and title of the proposed new article are inspired by the new book Empire of Destruction: A History of Nazi Mass Killing by Alex J. Kay. It would be a broad concept article that covers this article but also anti-partisan warfare, Romani genocide, nazi-induced famines, German mistreatment of Soviet prisoners of war, murder of political opponents, persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany, etc.
I will start the article if the reception is positive. ( t · c) buidhe 09:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
Since this discussion seems to have petered out, perhaps we need a broader discussion to clarify the scope after all. Because if some editors seem to think the scope is a superposition of two different things, or the article lead has a different scope than the body, I do not think that such a local consensus is compliant with overall Wikipedia article scope policies. Ealdgyth, what do you think? ( t · c) buidhe 01:06, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | Archive 41 |
Romania did everything the Nazis did. The Nazis weren't unique. Fundamentally, in principle, Romania was on par. Granted, in scale there is no comparison. I honestly can't stand the "Nazi absolutism" at play here. The prevailing notion that Hitler always led the way, when in fact it was Romania having the most antisemitic legislation before Barbarossa started, and indeed, actually spearheaded the Holocaust for at least the first 2 months of Barbarossa, per Hitler's own account. Romania was killing Jewish women and children more than a month before the Nazis started to do so. All of this is duly sourced, it's in the article, kindly go give it a read.
You think what I'm doing is to radical? Trust me, I'm (still) holding back, a small fear that if I go too hard in one fell swoop it will all be reverted. But yes, we should have more of Romania in the heading, the sections, and the infobox. That part in the Barbarossa section, stating that the Nazis started going after women and children from 1 August? Yeah uhh, Romania had been doing that for over a month! And I'd add this there for context.
I am very familiar with the - to put it mildly - lackluster Holocaust memory in Romania. With the public cult of war criminals - street names, monuments and the like - including Antonescu. But then, I look at us, over here in the West. We expect the Romanians to be impacted, we keep reminding them of the Wiesel Commission report which states that Romania was the 2nd greatest perpetrator. And yet...What would a Romanian, checking out this article, be seeing? Nazi this and Nazi that, oh and look here, a few lines on Romania, like a footnote, almost like an afterthought. You see, Romania was the second greatest perpetrator. Not only that, it was the only other "full package" perpetrator country, and for a while, at the beginning, the biggest perpetrator. And it's high time we start acting like it. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 11:24, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
I wish to add two brief statements from my original attempt in Romania's section, those sourced to Hilberg and stone. And to add (such as Romania) next to "its collaborators". Am I asking too much still? Transylvania1916 ( talk) 14:46, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Can I add some of this info in the Romania section of the Responsability article? Look, it's just that I spent time and effort digging these up and wording them, I want something to come of it... Transylvania1916 ( talk) 15:12, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Why is the Holocaust the exclusive domain of the Nazis? Why is Romania lumped together as a "collaborator" when it didn't collaborate, implementing its own plan instead? Why is all this allowed? How on Earth is it fair to nit-pick on my sources - which I do make sure always come from academic publishers - when there are books-worth of unsourced content on the Wiki? Why do you think it's fair to revert my hours worth of work with a few despicably dismissive words then be surprised when I naturally react? Why you despicably dismissively revert all my work, and don't make the slightest attempt to salvage anything? Why am I even bothering to write this, when I know that you people are too dense to understand what I'm saying? Why do you hit me with a WP:Something instead of talking to me like a normal human, a dignity which I do afford you? Why is "the consensus" only interested in perpetual stagnation? Why do I even bother?... Transylvania1916 ( talk) 21:58, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Buidhe - Please explain in more details why the long-standing image of Pilecki has been removed [1] and what precisely is undue in this long-standing version. Let's start with this one. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 04:44, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Buidhe - I disagree. You need to build consensus for your massive changes. I’m going to revert you (already done by different user). Please discuss line by line. Thanks -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 05:18, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
It reads:
Notable massacres include the July 1941 Ponary massacre near Vilnius (Soviet Lithuania), in which Einsatgruppe B and Lithuanian collaborators shot 72,000 Jews and 8,000 non-Jewish Lithuanians and Poles.
Please take a peek at the Ponary massacre article. The victims are listed as follow:
Where are non-Jewish Lithuanians come from? I would like to see a quotation, particularly regarding non-Jewish Lithuanians. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 05:26, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
@ User:EnlightenmentNow1792 - In light of your edit - [2] I’m requesting a quotation from the source you evidently based your edit on [1] (Stone page 2-3). Pinging User:Ealdgyth as well. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 02:02, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
"For the purpose of this book, the Holocaust is understood as the genocide of the Jews, as they were defined by the Nazi regime, during World War II and, importantly, as a key part of Germany's war effort. Europe's Romany (Gypsy) population was also the victim of genocide under the Nazis. Many other population groups, notably Poles, Ukrainians, and Soviet prisoners of war were killed in huge numbers, and smaller groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Black Germans, and homosexuals suffered terribly under Nazi rule."Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 02:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
understood as ... the genocide of the Jews". While I'm nitpicking, "especially" has a connotation that makes it unsuitable here. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 03:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
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Why in the first paragraph, it is written "Some six million jews" Instead of "Around six million jews"? רם אבני ( talk) 01:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
I see now that this debate had come up before and that the article does at least get around eventually to a discussion of the Gentile victims of the Holocaust deeper in with specific sections on various groups.
The problem is that the masses, googling "the Holocaust" for the first time, are going to read the first line and think "Ok: that's the basic story [and scope] of what happened," which is totally erroneous.
With nothing like a total scholarly consensus (and frankly it wouldn't change the inaccuracy even if there *were* one), it seems to me either absurdly pedantic or clearly slanted to insist on the nonmention of the nonJewish victims in the first sentence which is, for good or ill, the only sentence many readers will ever read.
Exactly the young and uneducated people who are already beginning to have the impression that only Jews were killed in the Holocaust.
In another 75 years of heading the current direction we're going the nonJewish victims will be considered an "alternative fact."
If most mainstream scholars had somehow come to the agreement that the Holocaust never in fact took place, is that what Wikipedia should reflect?
Obviously not.
It should reflect the truth.
Ya know: the actual, rational, reasonable empirical truth of the basic factual reality of an event for which we have no other name in common parlance.
Not just the most popular opinion. 97.115.170.34 ( talk) 14:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
> Perhaps you should try reading as far as the fourth paragraph.
as much as you might wish otherwise, not everyone is going to do that. the jewish death toll is in the first paragraph but, i had to go to a separate article to find the total number of deaths.
i personally see no reason that should be the case. it seems like the most significant number would be how many people died, and that doesn't seem to be easily accessible anywhere. Binarycat64 ( talk) 19:02, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
As another user noted, it's simply disgraceful the lack of mention for gays, gypsies, blacks, Jehovah's Witnesses, Slavs, the disabled, etc. It's an insult to these groups to not treat them as equally worth mention in the first paragraph along with the Jewish death toll. Mleonard85032 ( talk) 01:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
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Suggesting to make an addition to a sentence.
Original: The Holocaust is understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews, but during the Holocaust era[8] (1933–1945), systematic mass-killings of other population groups occurred, including Roma, Poles, Ukrainians and Soviet civilians and prisoners of war.
Suggestion: The Holocaust is understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews, but during the Holocaust era[8] (1933–1945), systematic mass-killings of other population groups occurred, including Roma, Serbs, Poles, Ukrainians and Soviet civilians and prisoners of war.
The Serbs were also targeted during this war - see article on Jasenovac concentration camp. 2607:FEA8:1E63:3A00:250C:406E:DE77:FB56 ( talk) 04:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
among other targeted populationsis suitable, as editors in that discussion expressed interest in phrasing it to be more original. I will do so momentarily.
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Please add a link to the White Ruthenia under the Romani section.
White Ruthenia is not very well known so a link to its page is recommended. Aayaffe ( talk) 10:16, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Could we edit the death toll on the right tab to reflect the 5 million non-Jews killed in the Holocaust? i.e. "Deaths" would say "6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews"? Especially since the persecution of non-Jews is mentioned later in the article, without a specific toll.
Philoquaker ( talk) 22:10, 26 June 2022 (UTC) Philoquaker
I wish to return to an earlier version of the end of the lead:
The European Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event during the Holocaust era (1933–1945), [1] in which Germany and its collaborators persecuted and murdered millions of others, including ethnic Poles, Soviet civilians and prisoners of war, the Roma, the disabled, political and religious dissidents, and gay men. [2]
It's a better description, besides it had been changed
by a blocked editor.
"Political and religious opponents" is way better than just Jehovah's Witnesses, Black Germans were rarely targeted.
References
RF354 ( talk) 09:21, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
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Change "including, according to David Cesarani" to just "including" as mentioning the name of the historian casts doubt on his opinion and implies that his statement is contentious which it clearly isn't Originalcola ( talk) 02:59, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
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It may help the article to include Lewi Stone's analysis of Operation Reinhard. Analyzing railway transportation records, Stone found that 25% (1.47+ million) of all Jews murdered in the Holocaust died during the 100-day Operation, arguing that it was more violent than relatively recent genocides and yielded a kill-rate ten times higher than some authorities have estimated for the Holocaust. ScissorMeRamses ( talk) 01:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
17 million people died in the holocaust but the other 11 million get even less coverage. 125.238.231.204 ( talk) 06:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
In this section of the lede, I think the word smaller is a bit dismissive of the suffering of these groups. The Holocaust is understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews, but during the Holocaust era (1933–1945), systematic mass-killings of other population groups occurred. These included Roma, Poles, Ukrainians, Soviet civilians and prisoners of war, and other targeted populations. Smaller groups were also victims of deadly Nazi persecution, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Black Germans, disabled people, and homosexuals. Could we just replace smaller with the word Other? Or if we have to reflect total numbers, how about Other less numerically smaller groups, or Other groups in smaller numbers? Incidentally smaller is presumed here to reflect total numbers, e.g., some sources state that percentage wise the Roma were the largest group of victims. Pngeditor ( talk) 10:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
No, this article is also about other victims as well. I think you misunderstand; 'smaller' here can easily be interpreted as the number of victims, and it is not required, so it can be removed without disrupting the meaning. We only need to say other groups. Otherwise we should give numbers for all groups. Smaller can easily be perceived as implying that total numbers are meant as opposed to percentages. Why take that risk? Pngeditor ( talk) 09:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
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HI everyone.
May I suggest to include in the introduction a wikilink, in a new line, to the page photography of the Holocaust?
It would be nice to have a direct link to all the photage available (available in the page itself, through the navbox at the bottom).
Thank you. LucaLindholm ( talk) 21:46, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
There were some problems with citations in the recent copy of content from World War II casualties of the Soviet Union. I've fixed the main problem with the citation itself (which can now be found as "Filimoshin, M.V" in Works cited), but the paragraph of copied content had various orphaned {{ sfn}}s, because the editor who added the content here included the {{ sfn}}s from the original, but not citations they referred to from the Works cited of the source article. I've fixed up the Filimoshin orphans, but there are also some Krivosheev 2001 orphans which I haven't and are still orphans, and there may be others. Mathglot ( talk) 09:15, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Romania already has its own sub-section in the "Germany's allies" section, but I argue even that isn't enough. I plan to elevate it to a full section, which would be a miniature version of all that is said about Germany: background, road to the Holocaust, extermination phases and methods etc. Romania's track record of antisemitism had no match in Europe before the Nazis, with Nazi-like laws of state employment and usage of Yiddish going back to the 19th century. Romania was also the last country in Europe to give citizenship to its Jews. Finally, as already stated in the article, Romania was the only country that matched Nazi Germany, in principle if not in quantity, "all the steps of the destruction process", the only other country during the Holocaust that truly did its own thing, as it were. This is only an idea as of now, but I'd like to hear some opinions. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 20:42, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
The Holocaust was the persecution of various ethnic groups, but primarily Jews. You can see here that there is probably around 15 million victims in total, if it is around the low end estimate: /info/en/?search=Holocaust_victims
It should be mentioned in the lede that it was a state-sponsored "ethnic cleansing" of various ethnicities, but of course Jews were the primary target. It is kind of weird that this is not mentioned in the lede section, considering how vital this article is. 2003:F0:F30:C00:F8CF:CA1C:AA4A:D408 ( talk) 19:16, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
I was going to respond to the previous section ("Six million...") by pointing to the FAQ, and was surprised not to see one. I think creating one will save everybody a lot of time, and that would surely be one of the top three or five questions. The The in the title (also above) being another of the top five. Mathglot ( talk) 00:21, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
I think this page should belong only to Category:The Holocaust or at least avoid over-categorizing. This is because the Category:The Holocaust already belongs to all necessary categories, such as Category:Antisemitism in Europe, etc. In addition, see my edit summary here. My very best wishes ( talk) 01:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
The name of the article as of 26/8/2022 is "The Holocaust". However most other Wikipedia article titles don't have "the"٫ and this should be no different. I understand it might be to avoid leading the reader to believe that it's not a matter of "A Holocaust" but rather of "The Holocaust". But like I said earlier٫ if you look at pretty much any other Wikipedia title٫ they don't use "the". GenZenny ( talk) 03:18, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
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Dear Wikipedia editors it has come to my attention that you have failed to mention the six million head that died in the camps.
There is a serious problem of lack of holocaust awareness in the world 72.76.155.3 ( talk) 14:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
The picture shows 'Jews from Subcarpathian Rus (then part of Hungary)'. The caption 'Hungarian Jews' may be unsourced. Xx236 ( talk) 09:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
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Even Sir Martin Gilbert, a Zionist historian, confirmed the Holocaust did not begin until the summer of 1941: https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/churchill_holocaust_01.shtml JamesEdwardson ( talk) 11:53, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
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There may be an incorrect geographic term in the article. In the section "Invasion of the Soviet Union (22 June 1941)" under the title "Mass shootings" in the 5th paragraph it is written "Einsatzgruppe C in the Ukraine with Army Group South". The term "The Ukraine" is not advised, using "Ukraine" would be better, in fact, it's even advised by the page "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Ukranian places)" So, if other editors agree that this is a mistake, Someone with editing rights should fix it. 83.178.143.2 ( talk) 13:59, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure I really get what the first explanatory note is trying to do. It seems half of those sources are for establishing that the term "Holocaust" refers specifically to the genocide of Jews (and not e.g. Roma), but that's not really relevant to the sentence it is attached to, which doesn't actually use the term "Holocaust". And it seems the other half of the sources are for establishing due weight for describing the death toll as "some six million", by quoting other sources who do the same. I can kind of get the point of that, though wouldn't it be better to actually explain the context and reasoning behind quoting that figure? For instance, like we do in §Death toll:
The most commonly cited death toll is the six million given by Adolf Eichmann to SS member Wilhelm Höttl, who signed an affidavit mentioning this figure in 1945.[420][ac] Historians' estimates range from 4,204,000 to 7,000,000.[422] According to Yad Vashem, "[a]ll the serious research" confirms that between five and six million Jews were murdered.[ac]
To me something along those lines would be more informative, particularly given I'm not entirely sure what the point of the note is at the moment. I guess it's just "yes this is due" source dumps, but is there not a better way to present that? Endwise ( talk) 07:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Having got no response, I'm going to boldly attempt a fix for the problem mentioned above. Here's what I'll do:
Endwise ( talk) 03:56, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
More eyes needed at the Journal of Historical Review, a holocaust denial publication by the Institute for Historical Review. There is discussion as to whether this should be categorised as an academic journal, and whether we should use the template for academic journals. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Well yes the Holocaust was mostly killing Jewish people, there was more to that, the list of “types” of people they killed includes but is not limited to; LQBTQ+, the mentally ill, and disabled along with those deemed “ugly” by societies beauty standards, please correct this to stop any misconception from spreading, especially because this website is meant to educate others and not spread misinformation. Raccoon dude111 ( talk) 02:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
In his account of the coronation of Richard the Lionheart in 1189, English chronicler Richard of Devizes was the first person to use the word holocaust when he described the mass murder of the Jews of London, although the use of this word simply refers to a " whole (holos) burnt (kaustos)" sacrificial offering to a god. [1] 86.187.237.124 ( talk) 22:02, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
The Holocaust is not my topic but just stumbled over this article. So just a FYI:
Grabowski, Jan; Klein, Shira (9 February 2023). "Wikipedia's Intentional Distortion of the History of the Holocaust". The Journal of Holocaust Research.
-- Jo1971 ( talk) 09:01, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
Are the issues in this gonna be addressed? https://forward.com/news/536276/new-research-documents-how-wikipedia-distorts-the-holocaust/
66.31.80.7 ( talk) 21:08, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
References
I've just Googled 'when did the Holocaust begin' and in the information panel that Google displays alongside search results was the phrase "Deaths: around 6 million Jews", which came from this Wikipedia article.
Two things struck me: 1. "around 6 million Jews" could be worded better I think. It is not encyclopaedic language and the word "around" has a "more or less" ring to it. That's fine if you're talking about what time you usually eat dinner ('around 6pm') or the price of a cup of coffee ('around 2 dollars'). This is talking about people's lives and I think "approximately 6 million Jewish people" or "estimated 6 million Jewish people" would be vastly preferable. 2. While Jewish people were the principal focus of the Nazi Holocaust, they were not the sole focus. Therefore "6 million Jewish people" should be edited (by someone more knowledgeable on the topic than me) to acknowledge that other groups were also targeted (either by being less specific or being more specific). 2A01:4C8:140A:C751:B501:B769:D156:601E ( talk) 22:36, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
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In the section on Romania the word "Transnistria" should link to " Transnistria Governorate". 93.72.49.123 ( talk) 01:20, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Academic sources have exposed that Wikipedia is purposely tainting the truth of the Holocaust. You guys are minimizing the Jewish losses and genocide against the Jewish people. The way I see it extended-confirming this article is pointless in protecting sockpuppetry as the most high-level people know how to avoid it, making them blend in with top-editors. Can you please explain why the holocaust is purposely being distorted to push an agenda on ethnic Poles being the victims while the truth is Jews of Poland were the primary target and not the ethnic Poles. 71.95.53.132 ( talk) 22:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
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Change ‘genocide of 6 million Jews during World War II’ to ‘genocide of 11 million people during World War II’ and include a link to the detailed victim count 86.31.149.143 ( talk) 23:31, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
There's a tag requesting a transcription for the word Shoah in the first article. I also think there should be a pronunciation listed. I suggest the IPA transcription /'ʃoʊ.ə/, as that's the one I've heard most often. If there's a more common or accepted pronunciation, that should be added in its place. Aykazeb ( talk) 21:49, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
The link from "Ivangorod, Ukraine" points to Ivangorod, Russia. So either the link is wrong(most likely) or the caption is wrong. 2A00:A041:2D23:DC00:46ED:CEA7:93A:6FBB ( talk) 23:17, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Essay introduction and infobox written Genocide of European Jews while North African Jews were also killed in the Holocaust. Parham wiki ( talk) 12:35, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
... If Holocaust means mass murder, then a “Holocaust” did not occur in North Africa. The history of the Jews in this period should correctly be discussed under the threat of a looming Holocaust which did not materialize. However, if what we mean by the Holocaust also includes the series of stages that (in Europe) preceded actual mass murder – e.g., concentrating the Jews in specific areas, stripping the Jews of their professions, despoiling the Jews of their property and material wealth, and depriving the Jews of their liberty by sending them to labor and other camps, then …. we are face to face with the looming Holocaust in its preliminary stages with all the considerable suffering involved.I think a paragraph or two about this would be a useful addition. --jpgordon 𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 13:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
This
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In this phrase:
In December 1942, the United Nations adopted a joint declaration condemning the systematic murder of Jews.
the words "United Nations" are linked to United Nations. This organisation didn't exist until 1945. As you can see at United Nations (disambiguation), the Allies of World War II were frequently known as the "United Nations" at the time.
With this in mind, please change [[United Nations]] to [[Allies of World War II|United Nations]]. 123.51.107.94 ( talk) 00:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
A study conducted by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) in 2021 showed that out of 1,028 pieces of content o Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Telegram and TikTok, 16.4 % either denied or distorted the history of the Holocaust. Figure 3 compares the proportion of content on each platform containing themes of Holocaust denial or distortion. On Facebook 8% of the content related to the Holocaust either denies or distorts it. That’s 3% of the Holocaust related content on Instagram, 49% on Telegram, 17% on TikTok and 19% on Twitter. [1]
While on some platforms (such as Facebook and Instagram), the proportions are relatively small, they are nevertheless significant in light of the enormous volume of content that is published on these platforms. Furthermore, the proportion of Holocaust denial and distortion may be underestimated on image-reliant platforms such as Instagram that rely on using CrowdTangle to research hashtags and keywords. This methodology does not identify these terms if they are represented in the image alone.
Secondly, across three of the platforms reviewed (Telegram, Twitter and TikTok), the proportion of Holocaust denial and distortion is relatively large – indeed on Telegram it approaches 50 per cent of the content reviewed. On this platform in particular, users who are looking for accurate and reliable content on that period in history have a high chance of encountering material that denies or distorts the Holocaust.
Holocaust denial and distortion are an issue in all the languages in question. Each platform, however, reveals different patterns. Facebook had comparable amounts of denial and distortion content in German, English and French, but none in Spanish. On Instagram, the small amount of Holocaust denial and distortion found was almost exclusively in English. On Telegram, all languages showed a high prevalence but German was particularly striking, with over 80 per cent of all German language content reviewed either denying or distorting the Holocaust. This chimes with other research claiming that German-language Telegram hosts conspiracy theories and misinformation, which is especially concerning as the number of German-language Telegram users continues to increase. [2] On TikTok, French was the language that contained most denial and distortion. This was partly driven by the popularity of antisemitic French comic Dieudonné on the platform. On Twitter, the significant amount of problematic content was relatively equal across all languages. While no content relating to denial or distortion was found in Spanish on Facebook or in French on Instagram, this does not mean that Holocaust denial and distortion are nonexistent on online platforms in these languages. Considering that only approximately 200 pieces of content were reviewed per language for each platform over a period of about a week through a keyword search, it is not necessarily the case that there is no content that denies and distorts the Holocaust in these languages, but simply that the prevalence of this content is too low to be uncovered in a small sample. Other studies, such as the Anti-Defamation League’s report, “Holocuento y otras mentiras”: El antisemitismo en español en Facebook [“The Holohoax and other lies”: Antisemitism in Spanish on Facebook], suggest that moderation is actually a lot less effective on non-English content. [3]
Lisa Rechelle ( talk) 09:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
References
I can see that there was some discussion of it and one resolved issue that (I think) is supposed to broaden the definition, but it doesn't seem that great to me. If you go back in the archives there's some great points which explain why extermination of Jews in particular should be the main topic of the article and I totally agree with it. Where I now have the issue is that at the moment the article defines the Holocaust as the extermination of Jews and Jews only. This is:
a) inconsistent with the page itself, which later does talk about other groups targeted (e.g. LGBTQ people, Roma people, Poles, Russians, etc.),
b) inconsistent with " Holocaust victims" - how can the Holocaust be only about Jews and somehow Holocaust victims be a larger group - it's a major inconsistency between articles.
c) (I'd say, with my knowledge of history) simply not true, as the Nazis targeted more than just one group with their policies, even in the same ways - as in, for example talking about certain groups destroying Germany and mentioning other groups than Jews as being "detrimental" (or said differently), e.g. LGBTQ people
d) feels exclusionary to people whose families and places experienced the Holocaust, but who were not of Jewish origin or did/do not identify with the Jewish identity - e.g. Polish people, whose families have been exterminated, etc.
e) seems historically and societally significant, as it shows hate (and in this case a very extreme form of it) going outside a particular group or its feature to a broader category of people deemed "worse" or otherwise "lesser", especially in the context of this being the top website listed after Googling "Holocaust".
Given that, I'd suggest framing the article in a way that clearly states the predominant impact of antisemitism and antisemitic narratives on the development of the Holocaust, and the fact that it predominantly targeted Jews, while understanding and acknowledging the fact that other groups were deeply affected and also targeted. I'd suggest adding a death toll for these groups and writing in the entry something along the lines of "[...] was the genocide of European Jews, together with other minorities and ethnicities in occupied territories, during World War II.". This could even be done on it's own, leaving the rest of the article focused on Jews, since I believe that way it frames the issue quite accurately.
P.S. I'm new to Wikipedia editing, so pls be understanding if I messed up some terminology or this issue has been settled for good, etc.
Chrisludw (
talk) 19:31, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
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The first 3-4 paragraphs of this article identify the Holocaust as only the murder of Jews. But let's be clear, the Nazis first came for leftists--communists, socialists, trade unionists. And the Holocaust included the decimation of many minorities and other ethnicities in the region--the Polish, Russians, etc. The current iteration on Wikipedia is SHOCKINGLY misleading. 76.37.232.1 ( talk) 03:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
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The lead should be updated this should be replaced,
Besides the Jews, Germany and its collaborators persecuted and murdered millions of others, including Poles, Soviet prisoners of war, the Roma, the disabled, political and religious dissidents, and gay men.
with what Buidhe put in the death toll section,
Historian Alex J. Kay estimates that including Jewish Holocaust victims, around 13 million people died as a result of Nazi mass killings, including "300,000 mentally and physically disabled people, up to 100,000 members of the Polish ruling classes and elites... 200,000 European Roma, at least 2 million residents of Soviet cities, up to 3.3 million Soviet POWs, around 1 million unarmed civilians in primarily rural areas during preventive terror operations and reprisals in the occupied territories (even after accounting for actual partisans among the dead), and another 185,000 civilian residents of Warsaw".[348]
As that source is 1 year old and not more then 10 years old. Are you going to update that @ Buidhe:? Dan white 76 ( talk) 19:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
During my work on another article, I found something unexpected. It is generally believed that due to the Nazi racial laws any sexual contacts between Germans and Jews were strictly prohibited, so the mass murder of Jews, as a rule, was not accompanied by mass rapes. However, in this detailed study, the author states that whereas consensual sexual contacts between Germans and Jews (and only within the borders of the Reich) were considered a violation of racial laws, rape or other forms of sexual abuse and humiliation were not prohibited. The situation was especially terrible in the occupied Eastern Europe.
Using numerous documents and testimonies, the author demonstrates that mass rape and various forms of sexual violence were the essential component of deportation and execution of Jews. I think we may consider incorporation of this information into the article. Paul Siebert ( talk) 04:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
This article needs to be shortened to give readers a concise summary of the topic and to meet Wikipedia guidelines for article length. In addition, there are prominent aspects of the Holocaust that are not currently present in the article.
Nazi human experimentation has its own article and as stated in the edit summary affected only an infintestimal proportion of Holocaust victims, while many experimentation victims were not Jewish. A quick persual of the high quality, recent sources listed at the top of this talk page shows that giving it a unique section is clearly undue weight compared to the coverage in these sources. ( t · c) buidhe 03:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
In the interest of focusing on specific content, please use the following sections to discuss: ( t · c) buidhe 19:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
[7] Nazi human experimentation has its own article and as stated in the edit summary affected only an infintestimal proportion of Holocaust victims, while many experimentation victims were not Jewish. A quick persual of the high quality, recent sources listed at the top of this talk page shows that giving it a unique section is clearly undue weight compared to the coverage in these sources. ( t · c) buidhe 03:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
[8] Aktion T4 is not part of the article scope (see above discussions). ( t · c) buidhe 19:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
[9] These features don't actually distinguish the Holocaust from other genocides and the paragraph is extra confusing to readers, because many of the statements in this paragraph apply only to German Jews and not Holocaust victims from other countries. Additionally, most Wikipedia articles about historical topics start with a background section because it is confusing to readers to put historiographical debates (such as comparison with other genocides) before giving them the main information on the event itself. ( t · c) buidhe 19:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
[10] Scholars have identified many factors that impacted survival rates, such as assimilation of the Jewish community, geography, attitudes of local non-Jews, and opportunities to emigrate before the killing began. To not even mention these and just cover in depth the theory that credits it entirely to state existence—without even mentioning the obvious counter-examples such as Slovakia—is obviously POV. ( t · c) buidhe 05:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
[11] If there is going to be a table that lists deaths per country, there is no need to duplicate this information in prose. It would be worthwhile to add a couple sentences on *why* the death rate varied, but just giving non-contexualized figures is not very informative. ( t · c) buidhe 06:18, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Why was Template:Infobox civilian attack removed? We the infobox on articles about several other genocides (i. e. California genocide, Circassian genocide, Armenian genocide, Rwandan genocide). CJ-Moki ( talk) 04:55, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
this latest rewrite is totally bellitling the effect of the Holocaust in Europe in WW2 Did it not happen in the Baltics and Eastern Europe? It does not explain the Holocaust country by country or its effects I am personally disappointed with this latest version I wont be back to use oy as a point of reference or research. 82.132.184.31 ( talk) 01:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Borsoka ( talk · contribs) 12:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
(Criteria marked are unassessed)
A highly sensitive theme that requires much attention. I planning to complete the review in a week. I have one preliminary question: why are not Zionism, the establishment of the State of Israel and Holocaust denial mentioned in the article? Borsoka ( talk) 12:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
I will continue my review. Borsoka ( talk) 03:21, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
I do not currently have access to Kweit 1997/2001 to find out more about where this estimate comes from. ( t · c) buidhe 04:36, 18 May 2023 (UTC)For the figure of between 200,000 and 250,000, see Dieter Pohl, Holocaust. Die Ursachen, das Geschehen, die Folgen (Freiburg im Breisgau: Herder, 2000), p. 124; Wendy Lower, Hi t l e r ’s Furies: German Women in the Nazi Killing Fields (Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2013), p. 244, n. 154. For the figure of more than 500,000, see Konrad Kwiet, ‘Rassenpolitik und Völkermord’, in Wolfgang Benz, Hermann Graml and Hermann Weiß, eds, Enzyklopädie des Nationalsozialismus (Munich: dtv, 2001 [1997]), pp. 50–65, here p. 62
I will continue the review later. Borsoka ( talk) 03:40, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
I will continue the review on Sunday afternoon or Monday morning. Borsoka ( talk) 03:25, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
Thank you so much for your review. ( t · c) buidhe 07:26, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
References
I realize this is a subject that gets raised over and over again at this talk page. Editors have decided, based on the preponderance of reliable sources, that the primary topic of "the Holocaust" is the genocide of Jews, rather than being inclusive of all victims of Nazi persecution. Unfortunately, the article itself muddles its own topic and tries to have it both ways.
My concrete proposal is to remove the section "Other victims of Nazi persecution" and instead add a hatnote as follows:
This scope and title of the proposed new article are inspired by the new book Empire of Destruction: A History of Nazi Mass Killing by Alex J. Kay. It would be a broad concept article that covers this article but also anti-partisan warfare, Romani genocide, nazi-induced famines, German mistreatment of Soviet prisoners of war, murder of political opponents, persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany, etc.
I will start the article if the reception is positive. ( t · c) buidhe 09:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
Since this discussion seems to have petered out, perhaps we need a broader discussion to clarify the scope after all. Because if some editors seem to think the scope is a superposition of two different things, or the article lead has a different scope than the body, I do not think that such a local consensus is compliant with overall Wikipedia article scope policies. Ealdgyth, what do you think? ( t · c) buidhe 01:06, 28 April 2023 (UTC)