This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tadeusz Kościuszko article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Tadeusz Kościuszko is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 17, 2014. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why is Kościuszko categorized as "Polish Roman Catholic"? This is an absurd as he was known for his anticlericalism and fierce criticism of Catholic Church and organized religion as such. E.g: https://www.tygodnikprzeglad.pl/kosciuszko-o-religii/ . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.64.75.116 ( talk) 09:34, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
I am done expanding this article with Storozynski. At this point the article could use a language copyediting by a native speaker of English before we can submit it for a Good Article. Any volunteers? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
This article (including talk page) has been significantly altered in recent months by sockmaster User:Danton's Jacobin operating several abusive sock-puppet accounts including just confirmed User:Guitar hero on the roof blocked on 18 January 2013 by AGK with an expiry time of indefinite, and indefinitely topic-banned from all edits relating to race and ethnicity as well. Please check the content for accuracy with special consideration given to heritage, purported by any of the relevant accounts. Poeticbent talk 21:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Since there have been no major edits to the article last week, I'd like to nominate it for a GA. Any comments? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
There seems to have been a misinterpretation of Nash/Hodges' book that explores Jefferson's refusal to carry out K's bequest to use his money in the US to buy freedom for slaves and educate them. In addition, an editor interjected private opinion (Jefferson was right), and hid other sources commentary on this issues by burying them in footnotes. Historians have recently looked at this issue and criticized Jefferson for failing to use the money and the power of his prestige to at least free some of his own slaves, which could have relieved his own financial distress. People can use other sources that support Jefferson's refusal to carry out the bequest, but they should not be distorting Nash and Hodges' position; they did not conclude that Jefferson was right in his actions, as was previously suggested here - in the Lead and in the lengthier discussion. Jefferson created more complexity. The discussion on this issue deserves place in the article - for instance, Nash and Hodges noted distortions in 1820 in how the terms of the bequest were presented publicly. This needs to be accurate. Parkwells ( talk) 14:28, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
I wonder if the topic is notable enough for its own article -
Kościuszko's last will? This would allow us to move all the potentially controversial details there, and just leave a general summary here. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 01:39, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Ref [24] is now invalid, and links to a page with no reference. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 16:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
The sentence "he left Vienna and moved to Solothurn, Switzerland, where his friend Franciszek Zeltner was mayor" is definitely wrong. Zeltner's first name is not Franciszek but Franz Xaver (he was Swiss, not Polish). He wasn't the mayor of Solothurn either, "only" the brother of the former Swiss ambassador. Here is a short biography by the Kościuszko Museum in Solothurn (in German), and here the same in Polish. -- Voyager ( talk) 09:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
While doing bibliography work and adding locations for publishers to the sources, per advice, there is one publication written in Polish whose location is obscure to this English speaking editor. Would Piotrus or anyone who can read Polish check out this book and if possible add the location ( |location=xxx ) to its 'cite book' entry in the bibliography? It's probably in Poland but I didn't see anything to that effect. The city name would be nice also if that's possible. Thanx. -- Gwillhickers 00:19, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Mongo, why did you remove links for 'artillery' and 'garrison'? They were not linked anywhere else in the article. I have restored these links. -- Gwillhickers 15:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
This information is covered in Kosciuszko A Biography, by Monica Mary Gardner. I am not familiar with Gardner. If her biography of Kościuszko (found in external links) is considered a reliable source I'll add this information. This article is still a good candidate for FA but that doesn't mean it can't get better. -- Gwillhickers 11:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
While many of the recent edits made by another editor were improvements, more care needs to be given when important and definitive items and historical context are deleted. e.g. Mention of Benedict Arnold being a traitor was removed. While condensing the text can be helpful we don't want to truncate the prose too much because when this starts to happen the text starts to read like a police report. One of the FA requirements is a well written article that affords a fair amount of details, context and in depth coverage. Also, unless it is a minor tweak, spelling, etc, editors are encouraged to make edit summaries on a per edit basis, explaining why they are making changes in the literature. -- Gwillhickers 17:37, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be quite a few links in the lede which I think would be better if they occurred in the body of the text, esp common knowledge links, such as Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, and the United States. If there is a consensus to reduce this number a bit I think it would be less distracting as the lede goes. It would seem that topics should only be linked here if they are key topics to the article's subject, and only when they are not common knowledge topics. The lede is not the place to invite the reader to tens of other subjects. Interest or curiosity for a topic/link usually occurs when that topic is used in context in the body of the text. -- Gwillhickers 19:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Opinions are welcomed at: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tadeusz Kościuszko/archive1 -- Gwillhickers 04:58, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Got a note that the FA review might mean that the lack of cites on my edit discussing Thaddeus of Warsaw could cause it to get bumped from the article. Personally, I feel that info sourced on a linked page should be fine but (a) ymmv and (b) that article isn't currently sourced (I took its info from the Jane Porter page, whose sources it presumably shares). I'll go ahead and try to give that page some sources; if they're necessary here, kindly copy them over and restore any blanked info. — LlywelynII 07:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Please see FA review page concerning undiscussed changes. -- Gwillhickers 17:42, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
(Continuing a conversation at User_talk:Novickas#Cite_book_page_numbers between User:Gwillhickers, User:Piotrus, and myself).
About the dual baptism. I think it likely that Mr Krol had insider information about this from his contacts in Belarus. It's probably written somewhere else, but it would be hard to find. IMO it's not worth getting wrapped around the axle about, so it's OK with me to leave it out.
About including number-of-pages-in-book in bibliography entries. G, can you find similar usage in other FAs or a supporting WP:MOS entry? I recently read the Disraeli article while looking for recent biographical FAs, didn't see it there. Because I'm used to the Chicago Manual of Style, which doesn't do that, I found it startling. Maybe User:Wehwalt (Hi!), who has shepherded several dozen articles to featured status, will weigh in? Novickas ( talk) 15:35, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Apparently, at long last, we have fixed and tweaked this article more than any other on the planet, it seems. If there's any last items to fix or adjust, let's do it before we put this article on the FA chopping block again, which I hope will be soon. -- Gwillhickers 17:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
I appreciate all the work that's gone into this. But I was depressed about it after reading the Disraeli article and remain so.
Three actionable things. One, we aren't given a reason as to why he went to France in 1798, just a dramatic introduction: "In March 1798 Kościuszko received a bundle of letters from Europe. The news in one of them came as a shock to him, causing him, in his crippled condition, to spring from his couch and limp unassisted to the middle of the room and exclaim..." Why the shock? We aren't told.
Two, there are two practically identical sentences about the will, right next to each other, one in the Later life section and one in the immediately following will section. Maybe the will doesn't need its own section? Moving the current wills content into the later life section, with a wikilink to the wills article rather than a "main article: see...", would do to my mind.
Three. This one is a little thornier. User:Piotrus has expressed the opinion that K.'s baptism in the Orthodox church is a fringe theory. But I've found a website (in Polish) that discusses this. [3]; Google translation here [4]. It seems reliable to me - the author is Doroteusz Fionik, an ethnographer who has an article in the Polish wiki [5] and a presence in Google books. [6]. This phrase gives me some pause -"Białoruski biograf Kościuszki Józef Jucho również wskazuje na Siechnowicze, uważając że początkowo był on ochrzczony w obrządku wschodnim." Specifically, the word uważając. It could mean either that "[Jozef Jucho] considers that he was first baptized in the Orthodox church ..." or “ considering that he was first baptized in the Orthodox church..." Is Fionik speaking for himself here or for Jucho?
I see his Orthodox baptism as a minority opinion, worthy of inclusion, and we can attribute it as such, to George A. Krol and to researcher Anatol Bienziaruk, but not sure whether to include Fionik. Novickas ( talk) 23:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
As I've asserted before, Kosciuszko's will is one of the key features in the biography as it reflects intimately on Kosciuszko the man and deserves more than a passing mention in his biography here. If there is a wide textual overlap in this and the
main article -- good. The two articles deserve to be connected with more than just a passing reference and a link, imo.
The bundle of letters, one of which caused Kosciuszko to hastily depart for France, "at once", contained the news that Polish soldiers were fighting under Napoleon in France and that his two nephews...
had been sent in the name of Kościuszko by their mother to Bonaparte with the prayer that they might serve in his ranks. By the end of June, 1798, Kościuszko was in France, in Bayonne. , Gardner, p.183 I'll work on a summary and work this into the paragraph in the 'Later life' section that mentions the "bundle of letters". As I also said before, I'll let you two sort of the details of Kosciuszko's baptism. --
Gwillhickers 08:40, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Done --
Gwillhickers 09:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
We have contradictory sentences in the Disposition of American estate section and in the lead with regard to whether any of his US assets were used to free and/or educate slaves. Each of the oppositional assertions are supported by their refs. Of the two statements in the disposition section, one, currently supported in this article by refs using Monica Mary Gardner and Nash & Hodges, is that a school for African Americans was established and that it was funded by the estate. Per Nash & Hodges: “Unlike Kosciusko, who intended to make a major stroke against slavery with his bequest, Lear had to settle for a small school far away from the areas…” (p. 242) (Lear was the executor at that time). No mention of using the funds to buy freedom. The other statement, supported by Storozynski, is that none of the money was used for its intended purposes. (See Storozynski, (p. 282, [8]).
The current statement in the lead – “the funds were never used for that purpose” – follows Storozynski but not Nash & Hodges and Gardner.
Any thoughts on how to resolve this? Novickas ( talk) 19:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this up again, but currently the text reads "None of the money that Kościuszko had earmarked for the manumission and education of African Americans in the United States was ever used for that purpose.[103] Though the American will was never carried out, its legacy went to found an educational institute for African Americans in the United States." For me, this seems to be contradictory: It says no money was used for education of african americans and in the next sentence it says the money (or parts of it) was used to found a school for arican americans, which for me sounds like eduction for african americans. If there are sources for both, I think there should be a decision for one which is more plausible or it should be stated as an open question - like this it just is confusing.-- 86.176.115.55 ( talk) 14:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I restored 'also' to 'opposed slavery', as numerous sources cite Jefferson opposing slavery all his life, in his letters, writings, political involvements, etc, while owning slaves. Some historians of course question his sincerity, but that is speculation -- much of it politically and socially motivated. -- Gwillhickers 02:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
It's been a good number of months since we last tried to get FA status for this article. Unless there are no other issues to deal with we should resubmit and go for it again. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:21, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Have s.o. at West Point pronouncing it /kʊˈʃʊʃkoʊ/, [11] but can't tell if that's the normal English pronunciation there, or if he's trying to approximate the Polish for his Polish guests. Does anyone know? Do people give the man the common Usonian and Australian pronunciation of /ˌkɒziˈɒskoʊ/, or is that just for things named after him? — kwami ( talk) 22:57, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
The first sentence of the article is anachronistic: "... became a national hero in Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and the United States." Belarus did not become a nation until long after his death. Better would be "... became a national hero in Poland-Lithuania and the United States." Maproom ( talk) 07:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I would consider adding the Polish pronounciation of his name to the lead. It goes like this:"taˈdɛuʂ kɔɕˈt͡ɕuʂkɔ". If editors involved in this article agree and reviewed this it should be moved the the article. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 13:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
@
Hawkeye7,
Piotrus,
MONGO,
AustralianRupert,
Ian Rose,
Kwamikagami, and
Euniana: -- Hawkeye, an official country doesn't need to be involved for one to become a traitor. One can betray his cause/people, switch sides or become a traitor, even when there is no 'country' that has been officially established. The people involved regarded the land for which they fought for as their country.
In Wiktionary there are several various definitions that refer to other things besides "country", which is a legal technicality really. They all have this one underlying principle:
"Hence, one who betrays any confidence or trust". There are a number of
biographies about B.A. (and
other sources) that use the term traitor in their titles. Since Benedict Arnold is famous for being
"synonymous with traitor" and the term was used when the article passed FA it should be restored. --
Gwillhickers (
talk) 15:42, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
In the United States, " Benedict Arnold" is a synonym for " traitor". He would also be considered to have been one to the nascent United States — which had declared their independence before Arnold betrayed them — by any objective commentator. Nihil novi ( talk) 21:53, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
@ Hawkeye7, MONGO, DoctorJoeE, Nihil novi, and Piotrus: -- Is the qualified phrase became a traitor against the Americans less than neutral? If there are no further objections I'll add this to the narrative, as again, traitor is synonymous with Arnold and almost all sources have always used this term. Most importantly, the reference (#40) for this statement (Storozynski, 2011, pp. 128–30) refers to Arnold as an "infamous traitor", and the term traitor was in place when this article passed its FA review. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 03:42, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
There is an alternative opinion that TK was a Belarusian. Actually Belarusian nation hasn't been formed yet in the beginning of the 19-th century. But he claimed himself to be Litwin. Belarusian historyography has an opinion that Litwins has just been renamed into Belarusians because of the policy of Russian Empire on occupied lands. Now there are many sources which could prove either Polish or Belarusian nationality of TK. There is an information about it in the text of article but there is no such statement in it's preamble. In Eastern-Slavic Wikipedias we usually put all the possible nationalities into preamble to add more neutrality to it. So I offer to add this information to the preamble. -- Belarus2578 ( talk) 10:01, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
The article doesn't mention Kościuszko's command of languages. It seems self-evident from the biography that he at least spoke his native Polish, English, and French, probably also Russian (?), but what about German? - I'm asking this question because according to the article Thaddeus of Warsaw, Kościuszko praised the German edition of the novel. I'm not sure whether that's even possible, see the talk page there - there may have been no German edition prior to Kościuszko's death. I strongly suspect that the source given may be in error and it was not a German, but a French edition. So, did Kościuszko speak/read German? Though he spent his last years in Solothurn (Soleure) in the German-speaking part of Switzerland, I think he would have managed with French there, as his hosts and all educated people there also spoke French. - Anyway, I would welcome some small paragraph regarding Kościuszko's languages. Gestumblindi ( talk) 20:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
/Émigré/ section: In "...1793, Prussia and Russia signed the Second Partition of Poland". Was the piece of paper they scribbled their names on actually headed "The Second Partition of Poland", or something else? I could attempt an answer, but I have other things to do, and я говорю только на русском языке, а не на польском. Пожалей меня :) > MinorProphet ( talk) 22:35, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Tadeusz Kościuszko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:00, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tadeusz Kościuszko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.capitalbridges.8m.com/bridges/thaddeus-kosciusko/When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:48, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tadeusz Kościuszko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:46, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tadeusz Kościuszko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
User:HorCrux48 has added "Freemason" to the introduction, giving http://www.loza-galileusz.pl/en/1.polscy.wolnomularze.php as a source, which apparently is a page of a Masonic lodge in Bydgoszcz, Poland, listing famous Poles who, according to this list, were Freemasons. Well, as I already commented when I reverted HorCrux48's first, unsourced edit here, I think there should be a part in the main body of the article, if this addition proves tenable, giving some detail regarding Kościuszko as a Freemason, as the lead section is an overview of the article's topic that should be based on the article itself. But as it stands now, it looks rather untenable to me. Until now, the article doesn't mention freemasonry at all, and as I'm fascinated by Kościuszko, I have quite extensively read about him, and never found anything in the available biographies mentioning that he was a Freemason. For example, there's nothing in Alex Storozynski's biography "The Peasant Prince" (Masons are mentioned there a few times, but never stating that Kościuszko was one). On the contrary, it seems that, according to this article, Kościuszko was "never made a Mason" - Storozynski is there quoted as saying "If I had found anything, I would have surely included it in my book!" So, I think that this list by the Bydgoszc lodge (they don't state any source for their list, so it doesn't seem to be a very good source itself) is too thin a base to describe Kościuszko as a Freemason. Gestumblindi ( talk) 21:52, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
As we know Freemasons keep their secrets to themselves, so it is clear that there are not any public records about Kościuszko being a Freemason. The only thing out there are records of two Masonic Lodges where Kościuszko is mentioned: the first one in Bydgoszcz, Poland( http://www.loza-galileusz.pl/en/1.polscy.wolnomularze.php); the second one in New York, USA( https://nymasons.org/site/thaddeus-kosciuszko/). Furthermore the National Museum of Warsaw, in 2014, held an exhibition curated by Tadeusz Cegielski a Freemason himself, where he mentioned Kościuszko as a Freemason( http://www.mnw.art.pl/en/temporary-exhibitions/freemasonry-ipro-publico-bonoi,5.html) ( https://culture.pl/en/article/secrets-of-the-freemasons-revealed-in-warsaw). User:HorCrux48 ( talk) 23:20, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:22, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Kościuszko identified as Lithuanian: "“What am I if not a Lithuanian, one of your chosen countrymen?… Whom should I defend if not you and myself?… It angers me to be away from Lithuania and serving in Poland…” –Thaddeus Kosciusko" [13]. Kasha lover ( talk) 13:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
No mention of the street in Los Angeles named after him?? It one of the only streets to get you to “ grand lower st” where a bunch of tv commercials were filmed over many decades 107.127.60.27 ( talk) 20:46, 2 April 2022 (UTC)\
Here’s but one example of the currency he’s been on On moneyFile:1000 marek polskich from 1919 - front.jpg Victor Grigas ( talk) 01:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tadeusz Kościuszko article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Tadeusz Kościuszko is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 17, 2014. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why is Kościuszko categorized as "Polish Roman Catholic"? This is an absurd as he was known for his anticlericalism and fierce criticism of Catholic Church and organized religion as such. E.g: https://www.tygodnikprzeglad.pl/kosciuszko-o-religii/ . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.64.75.116 ( talk) 09:34, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
I am done expanding this article with Storozynski. At this point the article could use a language copyediting by a native speaker of English before we can submit it for a Good Article. Any volunteers? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
This article (including talk page) has been significantly altered in recent months by sockmaster User:Danton's Jacobin operating several abusive sock-puppet accounts including just confirmed User:Guitar hero on the roof blocked on 18 January 2013 by AGK with an expiry time of indefinite, and indefinitely topic-banned from all edits relating to race and ethnicity as well. Please check the content for accuracy with special consideration given to heritage, purported by any of the relevant accounts. Poeticbent talk 21:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Since there have been no major edits to the article last week, I'd like to nominate it for a GA. Any comments? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
There seems to have been a misinterpretation of Nash/Hodges' book that explores Jefferson's refusal to carry out K's bequest to use his money in the US to buy freedom for slaves and educate them. In addition, an editor interjected private opinion (Jefferson was right), and hid other sources commentary on this issues by burying them in footnotes. Historians have recently looked at this issue and criticized Jefferson for failing to use the money and the power of his prestige to at least free some of his own slaves, which could have relieved his own financial distress. People can use other sources that support Jefferson's refusal to carry out the bequest, but they should not be distorting Nash and Hodges' position; they did not conclude that Jefferson was right in his actions, as was previously suggested here - in the Lead and in the lengthier discussion. Jefferson created more complexity. The discussion on this issue deserves place in the article - for instance, Nash and Hodges noted distortions in 1820 in how the terms of the bequest were presented publicly. This needs to be accurate. Parkwells ( talk) 14:28, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
I wonder if the topic is notable enough for its own article -
Kościuszko's last will? This would allow us to move all the potentially controversial details there, and just leave a general summary here. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 01:39, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Ref [24] is now invalid, and links to a page with no reference. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 16:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
The sentence "he left Vienna and moved to Solothurn, Switzerland, where his friend Franciszek Zeltner was mayor" is definitely wrong. Zeltner's first name is not Franciszek but Franz Xaver (he was Swiss, not Polish). He wasn't the mayor of Solothurn either, "only" the brother of the former Swiss ambassador. Here is a short biography by the Kościuszko Museum in Solothurn (in German), and here the same in Polish. -- Voyager ( talk) 09:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
While doing bibliography work and adding locations for publishers to the sources, per advice, there is one publication written in Polish whose location is obscure to this English speaking editor. Would Piotrus or anyone who can read Polish check out this book and if possible add the location ( |location=xxx ) to its 'cite book' entry in the bibliography? It's probably in Poland but I didn't see anything to that effect. The city name would be nice also if that's possible. Thanx. -- Gwillhickers 00:19, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Mongo, why did you remove links for 'artillery' and 'garrison'? They were not linked anywhere else in the article. I have restored these links. -- Gwillhickers 15:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
This information is covered in Kosciuszko A Biography, by Monica Mary Gardner. I am not familiar with Gardner. If her biography of Kościuszko (found in external links) is considered a reliable source I'll add this information. This article is still a good candidate for FA but that doesn't mean it can't get better. -- Gwillhickers 11:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
While many of the recent edits made by another editor were improvements, more care needs to be given when important and definitive items and historical context are deleted. e.g. Mention of Benedict Arnold being a traitor was removed. While condensing the text can be helpful we don't want to truncate the prose too much because when this starts to happen the text starts to read like a police report. One of the FA requirements is a well written article that affords a fair amount of details, context and in depth coverage. Also, unless it is a minor tweak, spelling, etc, editors are encouraged to make edit summaries on a per edit basis, explaining why they are making changes in the literature. -- Gwillhickers 17:37, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be quite a few links in the lede which I think would be better if they occurred in the body of the text, esp common knowledge links, such as Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, and the United States. If there is a consensus to reduce this number a bit I think it would be less distracting as the lede goes. It would seem that topics should only be linked here if they are key topics to the article's subject, and only when they are not common knowledge topics. The lede is not the place to invite the reader to tens of other subjects. Interest or curiosity for a topic/link usually occurs when that topic is used in context in the body of the text. -- Gwillhickers 19:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Opinions are welcomed at: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tadeusz Kościuszko/archive1 -- Gwillhickers 04:58, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Got a note that the FA review might mean that the lack of cites on my edit discussing Thaddeus of Warsaw could cause it to get bumped from the article. Personally, I feel that info sourced on a linked page should be fine but (a) ymmv and (b) that article isn't currently sourced (I took its info from the Jane Porter page, whose sources it presumably shares). I'll go ahead and try to give that page some sources; if they're necessary here, kindly copy them over and restore any blanked info. — LlywelynII 07:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Please see FA review page concerning undiscussed changes. -- Gwillhickers 17:42, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
(Continuing a conversation at User_talk:Novickas#Cite_book_page_numbers between User:Gwillhickers, User:Piotrus, and myself).
About the dual baptism. I think it likely that Mr Krol had insider information about this from his contacts in Belarus. It's probably written somewhere else, but it would be hard to find. IMO it's not worth getting wrapped around the axle about, so it's OK with me to leave it out.
About including number-of-pages-in-book in bibliography entries. G, can you find similar usage in other FAs or a supporting WP:MOS entry? I recently read the Disraeli article while looking for recent biographical FAs, didn't see it there. Because I'm used to the Chicago Manual of Style, which doesn't do that, I found it startling. Maybe User:Wehwalt (Hi!), who has shepherded several dozen articles to featured status, will weigh in? Novickas ( talk) 15:35, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Apparently, at long last, we have fixed and tweaked this article more than any other on the planet, it seems. If there's any last items to fix or adjust, let's do it before we put this article on the FA chopping block again, which I hope will be soon. -- Gwillhickers 17:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
I appreciate all the work that's gone into this. But I was depressed about it after reading the Disraeli article and remain so.
Three actionable things. One, we aren't given a reason as to why he went to France in 1798, just a dramatic introduction: "In March 1798 Kościuszko received a bundle of letters from Europe. The news in one of them came as a shock to him, causing him, in his crippled condition, to spring from his couch and limp unassisted to the middle of the room and exclaim..." Why the shock? We aren't told.
Two, there are two practically identical sentences about the will, right next to each other, one in the Later life section and one in the immediately following will section. Maybe the will doesn't need its own section? Moving the current wills content into the later life section, with a wikilink to the wills article rather than a "main article: see...", would do to my mind.
Three. This one is a little thornier. User:Piotrus has expressed the opinion that K.'s baptism in the Orthodox church is a fringe theory. But I've found a website (in Polish) that discusses this. [3]; Google translation here [4]. It seems reliable to me - the author is Doroteusz Fionik, an ethnographer who has an article in the Polish wiki [5] and a presence in Google books. [6]. This phrase gives me some pause -"Białoruski biograf Kościuszki Józef Jucho również wskazuje na Siechnowicze, uważając że początkowo był on ochrzczony w obrządku wschodnim." Specifically, the word uważając. It could mean either that "[Jozef Jucho] considers that he was first baptized in the Orthodox church ..." or “ considering that he was first baptized in the Orthodox church..." Is Fionik speaking for himself here or for Jucho?
I see his Orthodox baptism as a minority opinion, worthy of inclusion, and we can attribute it as such, to George A. Krol and to researcher Anatol Bienziaruk, but not sure whether to include Fionik. Novickas ( talk) 23:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
As I've asserted before, Kosciuszko's will is one of the key features in the biography as it reflects intimately on Kosciuszko the man and deserves more than a passing mention in his biography here. If there is a wide textual overlap in this and the
main article -- good. The two articles deserve to be connected with more than just a passing reference and a link, imo.
The bundle of letters, one of which caused Kosciuszko to hastily depart for France, "at once", contained the news that Polish soldiers were fighting under Napoleon in France and that his two nephews...
had been sent in the name of Kościuszko by their mother to Bonaparte with the prayer that they might serve in his ranks. By the end of June, 1798, Kościuszko was in France, in Bayonne. , Gardner, p.183 I'll work on a summary and work this into the paragraph in the 'Later life' section that mentions the "bundle of letters". As I also said before, I'll let you two sort of the details of Kosciuszko's baptism. --
Gwillhickers 08:40, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Done --
Gwillhickers 09:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
We have contradictory sentences in the Disposition of American estate section and in the lead with regard to whether any of his US assets were used to free and/or educate slaves. Each of the oppositional assertions are supported by their refs. Of the two statements in the disposition section, one, currently supported in this article by refs using Monica Mary Gardner and Nash & Hodges, is that a school for African Americans was established and that it was funded by the estate. Per Nash & Hodges: “Unlike Kosciusko, who intended to make a major stroke against slavery with his bequest, Lear had to settle for a small school far away from the areas…” (p. 242) (Lear was the executor at that time). No mention of using the funds to buy freedom. The other statement, supported by Storozynski, is that none of the money was used for its intended purposes. (See Storozynski, (p. 282, [8]).
The current statement in the lead – “the funds were never used for that purpose” – follows Storozynski but not Nash & Hodges and Gardner.
Any thoughts on how to resolve this? Novickas ( talk) 19:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this up again, but currently the text reads "None of the money that Kościuszko had earmarked for the manumission and education of African Americans in the United States was ever used for that purpose.[103] Though the American will was never carried out, its legacy went to found an educational institute for African Americans in the United States." For me, this seems to be contradictory: It says no money was used for education of african americans and in the next sentence it says the money (or parts of it) was used to found a school for arican americans, which for me sounds like eduction for african americans. If there are sources for both, I think there should be a decision for one which is more plausible or it should be stated as an open question - like this it just is confusing.-- 86.176.115.55 ( talk) 14:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I restored 'also' to 'opposed slavery', as numerous sources cite Jefferson opposing slavery all his life, in his letters, writings, political involvements, etc, while owning slaves. Some historians of course question his sincerity, but that is speculation -- much of it politically and socially motivated. -- Gwillhickers 02:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
It's been a good number of months since we last tried to get FA status for this article. Unless there are no other issues to deal with we should resubmit and go for it again. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 20:21, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Have s.o. at West Point pronouncing it /kʊˈʃʊʃkoʊ/, [11] but can't tell if that's the normal English pronunciation there, or if he's trying to approximate the Polish for his Polish guests. Does anyone know? Do people give the man the common Usonian and Australian pronunciation of /ˌkɒziˈɒskoʊ/, or is that just for things named after him? — kwami ( talk) 22:57, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
The first sentence of the article is anachronistic: "... became a national hero in Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and the United States." Belarus did not become a nation until long after his death. Better would be "... became a national hero in Poland-Lithuania and the United States." Maproom ( talk) 07:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I would consider adding the Polish pronounciation of his name to the lead. It goes like this:"taˈdɛuʂ kɔɕˈt͡ɕuʂkɔ". If editors involved in this article agree and reviewed this it should be moved the the article. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 13:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
@
Hawkeye7,
Piotrus,
MONGO,
AustralianRupert,
Ian Rose,
Kwamikagami, and
Euniana: -- Hawkeye, an official country doesn't need to be involved for one to become a traitor. One can betray his cause/people, switch sides or become a traitor, even when there is no 'country' that has been officially established. The people involved regarded the land for which they fought for as their country.
In Wiktionary there are several various definitions that refer to other things besides "country", which is a legal technicality really. They all have this one underlying principle:
"Hence, one who betrays any confidence or trust". There are a number of
biographies about B.A. (and
other sources) that use the term traitor in their titles. Since Benedict Arnold is famous for being
"synonymous with traitor" and the term was used when the article passed FA it should be restored. --
Gwillhickers (
talk) 15:42, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
In the United States, " Benedict Arnold" is a synonym for " traitor". He would also be considered to have been one to the nascent United States — which had declared their independence before Arnold betrayed them — by any objective commentator. Nihil novi ( talk) 21:53, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
@ Hawkeye7, MONGO, DoctorJoeE, Nihil novi, and Piotrus: -- Is the qualified phrase became a traitor against the Americans less than neutral? If there are no further objections I'll add this to the narrative, as again, traitor is synonymous with Arnold and almost all sources have always used this term. Most importantly, the reference (#40) for this statement (Storozynski, 2011, pp. 128–30) refers to Arnold as an "infamous traitor", and the term traitor was in place when this article passed its FA review. -- Gwillhickers ( talk) 03:42, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
There is an alternative opinion that TK was a Belarusian. Actually Belarusian nation hasn't been formed yet in the beginning of the 19-th century. But he claimed himself to be Litwin. Belarusian historyography has an opinion that Litwins has just been renamed into Belarusians because of the policy of Russian Empire on occupied lands. Now there are many sources which could prove either Polish or Belarusian nationality of TK. There is an information about it in the text of article but there is no such statement in it's preamble. In Eastern-Slavic Wikipedias we usually put all the possible nationalities into preamble to add more neutrality to it. So I offer to add this information to the preamble. -- Belarus2578 ( talk) 10:01, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
The article doesn't mention Kościuszko's command of languages. It seems self-evident from the biography that he at least spoke his native Polish, English, and French, probably also Russian (?), but what about German? - I'm asking this question because according to the article Thaddeus of Warsaw, Kościuszko praised the German edition of the novel. I'm not sure whether that's even possible, see the talk page there - there may have been no German edition prior to Kościuszko's death. I strongly suspect that the source given may be in error and it was not a German, but a French edition. So, did Kościuszko speak/read German? Though he spent his last years in Solothurn (Soleure) in the German-speaking part of Switzerland, I think he would have managed with French there, as his hosts and all educated people there also spoke French. - Anyway, I would welcome some small paragraph regarding Kościuszko's languages. Gestumblindi ( talk) 20:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
/Émigré/ section: In "...1793, Prussia and Russia signed the Second Partition of Poland". Was the piece of paper they scribbled their names on actually headed "The Second Partition of Poland", or something else? I could attempt an answer, but I have other things to do, and я говорю только на русском языке, а не на польском. Пожалей меня :) > MinorProphet ( talk) 22:35, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Tadeusz Kościuszko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:00, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tadeusz Kościuszko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.capitalbridges.8m.com/bridges/thaddeus-kosciusko/When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:48, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tadeusz Kościuszko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:46, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tadeusz Kościuszko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
User:HorCrux48 has added "Freemason" to the introduction, giving http://www.loza-galileusz.pl/en/1.polscy.wolnomularze.php as a source, which apparently is a page of a Masonic lodge in Bydgoszcz, Poland, listing famous Poles who, according to this list, were Freemasons. Well, as I already commented when I reverted HorCrux48's first, unsourced edit here, I think there should be a part in the main body of the article, if this addition proves tenable, giving some detail regarding Kościuszko as a Freemason, as the lead section is an overview of the article's topic that should be based on the article itself. But as it stands now, it looks rather untenable to me. Until now, the article doesn't mention freemasonry at all, and as I'm fascinated by Kościuszko, I have quite extensively read about him, and never found anything in the available biographies mentioning that he was a Freemason. For example, there's nothing in Alex Storozynski's biography "The Peasant Prince" (Masons are mentioned there a few times, but never stating that Kościuszko was one). On the contrary, it seems that, according to this article, Kościuszko was "never made a Mason" - Storozynski is there quoted as saying "If I had found anything, I would have surely included it in my book!" So, I think that this list by the Bydgoszc lodge (they don't state any source for their list, so it doesn't seem to be a very good source itself) is too thin a base to describe Kościuszko as a Freemason. Gestumblindi ( talk) 21:52, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
As we know Freemasons keep their secrets to themselves, so it is clear that there are not any public records about Kościuszko being a Freemason. The only thing out there are records of two Masonic Lodges where Kościuszko is mentioned: the first one in Bydgoszcz, Poland( http://www.loza-galileusz.pl/en/1.polscy.wolnomularze.php); the second one in New York, USA( https://nymasons.org/site/thaddeus-kosciuszko/). Furthermore the National Museum of Warsaw, in 2014, held an exhibition curated by Tadeusz Cegielski a Freemason himself, where he mentioned Kościuszko as a Freemason( http://www.mnw.art.pl/en/temporary-exhibitions/freemasonry-ipro-publico-bonoi,5.html) ( https://culture.pl/en/article/secrets-of-the-freemasons-revealed-in-warsaw). User:HorCrux48 ( talk) 23:20, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:22, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Kościuszko identified as Lithuanian: "“What am I if not a Lithuanian, one of your chosen countrymen?… Whom should I defend if not you and myself?… It angers me to be away from Lithuania and serving in Poland…” –Thaddeus Kosciusko" [13]. Kasha lover ( talk) 13:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
No mention of the street in Los Angeles named after him?? It one of the only streets to get you to “ grand lower st” where a bunch of tv commercials were filmed over many decades 107.127.60.27 ( talk) 20:46, 2 April 2022 (UTC)\
Here’s but one example of the currency he’s been on On moneyFile:1000 marek polskich from 1919 - front.jpg Victor Grigas ( talk) 01:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)