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I did not read all coments here, BUT: as a re to some of you
Yes if you what the historical facts you need the word 'szlachta'! this is due to the fact, that the polish gentry has a differ a lot from thet of thier neighbors.
and yes the 'szlachta' considert them self as nobels NOT citizens! one has to also see this in the european context of noblemen. best proof is that the 'szlachta' could marry with other nobles in europe. citizens were not permited. Poland also had citizens. eg: the cities Gdansk/Danzig e. a.
before you make wied statements read up. But make sure you dont just use one sided books. (like polish school books ... wuppy! Poland is the holly nation [ironic]) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.93.41.161 ( talk) 10:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Do we really need this term 'szlachta' ??? let's stick to the 'noblemen'.
This is about specific Polish-only class, not general Noblemen. -- Taw
Not really, there was Nobility in all European states. In some states it was as highly privileged as in Poland. In some countries it was just a mere paper title. But in all of them it is called "nobilitas" - Nobility. The word "szlachta" in today's Polish has w very broad meaning, covering both the historic Polish nobility as well as some burlesque knoghthoods conferred by today's monarch. But this article is about the original nobility.
Hello, guys. Maybe you have forgotten to give some information about ukrainian gentry, haven't you ?
Hello Polish contributors -- Could you plese try to remember that, in English, we use a lot of articles -- 'a', 'an', and 'the' -- before nouns? It would help a lot. Also, if you are going to keep a term in its native language (unless it is common English usage) the term should be italicized every time. Finally, it would be very nice if you would provide pronunciation guides for polish words. One of the reasons so many Eastern European cities are known by their German names is that English speakers have long been more familiar with German (plus the fact that German was the Imperial language...). If you want the correct Polish names to gain currency, people need to be able to pronounce them -- otherwise, they'll look for easier, non-Polish equivalents that they can remember! Thanks for the help -- HK
Indeed, articles are our problem :D
Anyway, the term is used in british publications as well, although it might not be that popular among the general population... Could you possibly post a link that would lead me to some foreign diacrites chart? Does Wiki support phonetical script at all?
As a temporary solution I will add the polish-for-dummies name version.
BTW, we should consider adding some paragraph describing the differences between polish szlachta and all the other gentry social groups in Europe. Halibutt 19:00, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Corrected the transcription. Please note that the Polish "sz" is NOT the same as the English "sh". -Arael
"Poland was called the Republic (Rzeczpospolita)" I see it like this:
Republika = Republic
Rzeczpospolita = Commonwealth
Hence, I think commonwealth would suit Rzeczpospolita better in terms of style.
[Edit by Jakub] Summing it up
To do list moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Articles. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:17, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Od czasu do czasu wrzucam nowe obrazki do mojej galerii - "niewykorzystanych", zwiazanych z historia, jezeli ktos ma pomysl gdzie powstawiac, niech przebiera :) - Galeria.-- Emax 16:56, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
First off, Poland was around before germany was, and Poland had a government when the germans where still in tribes. Also germans would attack the pole and lose, so the germans took there Word as fear. also the polish had a very free people, yes the szlachta had voting right but also mad up 95% of the military. also you are discribing english noblity in golden freedom not polish, Piotrus. and the polish people are starting to know this.
The word "Szlachta" was borrowed in Romanian as "Şleahtă", with a changed meaning: "a gang or mob of people with dubious intentions" and it's almost always used as a pejorative. Any idea why they became so unfamous ? Bogdan | Talk 14:28, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Polish word szlachta comes most certainly from Middle High German geslaht (today's Geschlecht), meaning family. One can see that none of you except Halibutt has studied Germanic languages. -- Alexvonf 09:50, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, I think the case for szlactha being German-derived is pretty good; if you consider the preponderance of the evidence: rycerz/ritter, pancerni/panzer etc., it starts to look like to look like most of the feudal terminology was German-derived. The Lech derivation looks like a charming folk etymology. (An interesting comparison would be to see what Bohemian nobles were called. "Czecthta?" I doubt it. Why were the Russian (and I believe Bulgarian) nobility called "boyars," not "Russars" or "Bulgars?" Were they just not as conscious of their roots as the Sons of Lech?)-- Jpbrenna 17:23, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the Etymology section needs to be re-written. The meaning of at least two sentences is unclear, and there is no logical 'flow' from one sentence to the next. In fact, the third to last sentence ("Some would even become...") I still don't understand after reading it three times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Star-lists ( talk • contribs) 09:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Why are you thinking that the polish take words for the germans, this is the same german and russian propaganda I hear everywhere. Next you'll say that the arabs stole words from the spanish, but not the other way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Modern Szlachta ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The Szabla article seems to link the szabla sword to the nobility; added to the bloody-type derivations I see, I think this likely. Other nobilties (Hapsburg, Buckingham Palace) got their starts with swords. My 2 cents.-- John Bessa ( talk) 19:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
It's a matter of usages in Polish and English. English seldom uses "Mr. + [title]." There may be a few rare exceptions, e.g. "Mr. President" or "Mr. Mayor." But one doesn't say "Mr. Doctor," "Mr. Professor," "Mr. Engineer," "Mr. General" or "Mr. Brother." I find it hard to imagine an anglicized Polish nobleman saying, "Mr. Brother." I think he would say, simply, "Brother." (Cf. " Br'er Rabbit.") logologist 23:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've seen it argued (but can't remember where, so you'll have to treat this as unsourced) that the szlachta are a citizen class and not a noble one. This is a narrow citizenry, in the same manner as Athens or Rome (or the antebellum South) rather than the modern universal citizenry, of course, but there are some citizen-like characteristics to the szlachta, as well as the many noble-like characteristics. In particular, mutual equality and the use of law in their relations with each other are very citizen-like.
I'm not at all sure how to even start putting this into the article - for a start, I'd need to dig up the source and I've just read too much Polish history over the years to even know where to start - but I thought I'd throw it out there as an alternative view for the rest of you to chew over.
The article states that the reasons for this privilige was: "a compensation for the unsuccessful incursion on Moldavia which had decimated the szlachta". However the incursion and the Polish defeat actually took place a year later, in 1497 ( Battle of the Cosmin Forest). Until this is verified and explained, I moved this sentence here.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The Good article nomination for Szlachta/Archive 1 has failed, for the following reason:
Szlachta and Poland in general is anything but tolerant. Ukraine unionist church is great example. QuestPc 13:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
It is RELATIVE. And this specically refers to religious matter of a certain era. Poland was the only place in Europe where a non-Christian could occasionally be ennobled without conversion. Galassi 14:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Also to me it seems that this section isn't balanced enough. The Szlachta-part of the population constituted several million individuals. Surely there must have been many people within this group with extreme views towards people with other religious beliefs; just as there were many people with great understanding towards other creeds. Which of these tendencies were stronger is difficult to prove. One or a few documents don't prove anything, since just by accident a "bad apple" among mostly good apples could be picked; just as the opposite could be true. In any case such claims, as are currently made in the article, must be proven with references. As it now stands it rather gives the reader a feeling that the writer for some reason wants to protect the Szlachta against claims that it would not have been tolerant towards Jews and Non-catholic Christians. -- Smallchanges 16:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
The lead states: "Szlachta (['ʃlaxta] (help·info)) Lithuanian: Bajorai, was the noble class in Poland, Ukraine and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the three countries that later jointly formed the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth." Is this entirely accurate? Many parts of present day countries were covered by the PLC, why is Ukraine singled out? Ukraine wasn't part of the Union of Lublin. JRWalko 23:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
You're right it shouldn't be singled out. Ukraine at the time of Union of Lubin wasn't a country - part belonged to Crown (Poland) and part to Grand Duchy of Lithuania. There were projects of creating Commonwealt of Tree Nations (see: XVII century - Khmelnytsky rebellion) but it was never really done. Ayway not everyone would agree with using the term "szlachta" while speaking about Cossacks starshyna (as Commonwealth nobility wouldn't let them be seen as "szlachta" and those that owned most of land on that territory were families listed as Lithuanians or "adopted" into Polish nobile families, see: Union of Horodło and what Sigismund II Augustus done to "persuade" magnats from Lithuania to sign the Union of Lublin). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrząszcz ( talk • contribs) Feb 26, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.30.197.161 ( talk) 17:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The original sentence read:
'A Polish nobleman living at this time before the 15th century was referred to as a "rycerz" (German "ritter"), very roughly equivalent to the English "knight", the critical difference being the status of "rycerz" WAS strictly hereditary; the class of all such individuals was known as the "rycerstwo".'
This was changed to 'the status of "rycerz" WASN'T strictly hereditary ...,' the reason being cited as "correction done in face of strong evidence to the contrary."
This so-called "strong evidence to the contrary" is not produced and stating the rycerz WASN'T strictly hereditary obliterates the critical difference of English knights from the Polish rycerz, and obliterates the very meaning of the original sentence.
Produce the strong evidence to the contrary before making such a change.
The stated hereditary status of the Polish rycerz is based off the work of scholar TADEUSZ MANTEUFFEL, "The Formation of the Polish State: The Period of Ducal Rule, 963-1194" (Detroit, MICHIGAN, U.S.A.: WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY PRESS, 1982), cited in the footnotes.
Keep in mind the period and years under discussion, a time no later than 1400 A.D., and including a hereditary tradition originating much earlier in antiquity. Ties of blood were the strictest assurance of loyalty and solidarity in those ancient times, when warfare was every man's stock and trade. -- Exxess ( talk) 20:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have no Idea how to give a reference to a PART OF an article. the reason I created this article is that in the fictional universe of The World of Darkness, a 'race' of ghouls exists. These ghouls are created, or fleshcrafted, by the Tzimisce clan of vampires. this 'race' is referred to as Szlachta. I thought it would be good to create a 'see the disambiguation page' for the word szlachta.
Apparently I'm not as good a Wikipedia editor as I thought I was.
Please help...?!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkruijff ( talk • contribs)
The reasoning behind the move was as explained in the edit summaries:
In more detail:
As one can see by clicking on these Google Book results, even the academic literature presents the terms as "the Polish nobility, the szlachta,...". In other words, though only the Polish term may be used later, the English term is used first even in academic literature, and "szlachta" is never used without first being explained. It is not English and cannot be used as an article title in an encyclopedia meant for the general public. There is no reason to violate one of the most important WP policies, to use English terms as article titles: Wikipedia:ENGLISH
See also all the other articles on European nobilities in WP - they have English instead of foreign article names, like it should be: Category:European_nobility
And Norman Davies specifically says here that "/szlachta/ should be translated as 'nobility'" -- Espoo ( talk) 21:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
1) M.K., you ignored that my edit cleaned up the incomprehensibly long definition by splitting it into parts and that has fortunately stayed. 2) You simply ignored what i wrote above:
As one can see by clicking on these Google Book results, even the academic literature presents the terms as "the Polish nobility, the szlachta,...". In other words, though only the Polish term may be used later, the English term is used first even in academic literature, and "szlachta" is never used without first being explained. It is not English and cannot be used as an article title in an encyclopedia meant for the general public. There is no reason to violate one of the most important WP policies, to use English terms as article titles: Wikipedia:ENGLISH.
As an article name, szlachta is a very bad idea not only because it violates WP:English but because it's completely incomprehensible to WP's target audience, general readers, who will find this article unnecessarily difficult or will not read it at all. There is no reason we cannot use Polish-Lithuanian nobility. In fact, since the Lithuanian nobility joined the Polish nobility, my original move was not incorrect at all though you're right that many would consider it misleading. -- Espoo ( talk) 09:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Is it correct to call the magnates "aristocracy"? Aristocracy is supposed to be much more than that. It's not enough to be wealthy to be an aristocrat, or should we write that there are aristocrats in the US? Bill Gates? The Kennedy Clan? The Bushes?
Why not just call them magnates, as they're called by historians anyway?
Really? There were just 7 ordynacjas. Out of them 4 were short lived: Jarosławska 1470-1519 (49 years), Ostrogska 1609-1766 (dissolved after many law suits and after changing hands many times), Ostrowska 1740-1775 (35 years), and the Sułkowskis' since 1775 (just 20 years before the Partitions of Poland) Is it really supposed to explain the alleged aristocratic status of the families in the Old Republic?
Only 2-3 were successful: the Radziwiłłs' since 1586, the Zamoyskis' since 1589, and Pińczowska since 1601 (but this one was quite small - only 3 cities and tens of villages, it fell out early in the 19th century).
The majority of the magnates never even asked to have an ordynacja created for them. The Polish ordynacja wasn't the same as the English fee tail. It wasn't just about keeping the property together. An ordynat had huge duties. He had to keep a private army, build fortifications, support all of his relatives, and do anything the Sejm required to be allowed to create an ordynacja. Simply many magnates couldn't afford it, that's why the ordynacjas failed.
Are you sure the Potockis had an ordynacja in the Old Republic? The Lubomirskis only inherited an ordynacja which had to be dissolved. That reduces your list to two names. Perhaps it'd be good to compare how many of them had it and how many did not, and then write something less general? After all we're speaking only of several families anyway.
What does the Rzeź galicyjska have to do with the Old Republic's szlachta anyway? It was another country and another social structure. It was no longer szlachta, only the Austrian aristocracy, because the few who kept their land became Austrian aristocrats after the Partitions.
Perhaps it's be better to write about aristocracy after the Partitions of Poland and after szlachta had lost its status? Then there were really many aristocrats in the Russian, Austrian and Prussian courts, and at that time tens of ordynacjas were created, the majority of which survived until WWII, but they had nothing to do with the Old Republic's szlachta, or the szlachta's law that made ordynacja very difficult to create and keep.-- 178.73.50.48 ( talk) 20:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Is anyone still following this page ?? I would like to add the appropriate information in the references section. Rogala ( talk) 14:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
By all means, be bold and improve the page in any way you can. If you have any specific questions, try WT:POLAND as well. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:56, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Quick fail due to insufficient citations. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:57, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
This article is in the main pure fiction. It ignores history and the fact that in Poland we had two casts one being the Lechici the other Kmiecie. Lechici being the warrior cast the Kmiecie common free folk during middle ages. Otherwise where did in 1750 the 60% of Polish, then serves population come from?? Mars?? They were initially all equal in law but differed in clan’s rules. All initially owned land but under a different conditions or terms. Artisans and city folk did also come from Kmiecie cast .Well if I had to rate it I would give it, like all the German Nazi propaganda on this site, a z grade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.15.76.15 ( talk) 10:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Please join the discussion in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Heraldry and vexillology#Polish heraldry and genealogy about how to correctly handle historical Polish concepts "ród", "ród herbowy" vs. "House" & "Clan", etc. Staszek Lem ( talk) 18:16, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
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It is disputed whether Zaporozhians were part of szlachta, it is therefore best if we don't mention it. Internet sources wouldn't be enough. A proper historical analysis is required. Oliszydlowski (TALK), 13:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
How strange that there's no Polish version of an article that deals with such a Polish topic! 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 14:12, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
...lowest percentage of nobles Kiev, Braclaw...
5th revision of 1794 says there was 7,72% of szlachta in Kiev Governorate, 6,73% in Volhynian Governorate and 8,88% in Podolian Governorate. And thats excluding Clergy (~1,5% in every Governorate), which in most cases was szlachta as well. Mykola Krykun Palatinates of Right-Bank Ukraine in the Sixteenth through Eighteenth Centuries: Studies and Source Materials. Lviv 2012. 702 p., ill., maps. ISBN 978-617-607-240-9 See p. 586
The greatest concentrations of impoverished nobles (szlachta zagrodowa) could be found in the palatinates of Masovia, Podlachia and Lublin.
We already mentioned above that at least 3/4 (or 75%) of all Lithuanian szlachta was minor nobility. page 10 And about high concentration of szlachta in Mazovia etc. No point of mentioning again in the same paragraph.
3% of szlachta in Galicia
I would leave it out, as here are two sources that would give us:
1) 6% according to L. Slivka. (2004). УКРАЇНСЬКА ШЛЯХЕТСЬКА ЕЛІТА: ПРОЯВИ САМОСВІДОМОСТІ ДРІБНОЇ ШЛЯХТИ ГАЛИЧИНИ НАПРИКІНЦІ ХVІІІ – НА ПОЧАТКУ ХХ ст. The Ukrainian Noble Elite: View of self-image of the Galician Petty Gentry from the end of the eighteenth until the beginning of the 20th centuries. (Ukrainian) Ivano-Frankivsk: Ivano-Frankivsk State Medical University.
2) About 10% (no figure in the article, but it would be about 300 000 mentioned in the article out of ~3 150 000 as I recall) according to Zarys działalności Związku Szlachty Zagrodowej w latach 1938-1939
Korwinski ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:52, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Someone in Poland, very knowledgeable, perhaps ideally a Polish noble, needs to challenge the following in the Szlachta article:
"Later, as marriages by a noble—male or female—to a commoner became more frequent, children inherited nobility from their noble parent. And a noble girl married to a commoner could transmit nobility to her husband and to all their children."
There's no citation, and it flies in the face of history, and seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking, that nobility would be transmitted through the mother.
From the 1505 General Seym in Radom and Its Nihil Novi Statutes, stating nobility follows the father, not the mother:
"Let no one be received to the Cathedral and Parish Churches in our Kingdom for the Bishoprics, Prelatries, Canonries but only those that cure nobles by birth to both parents of nobiliary status, and those who are reared in the nobiliary habit. Yet a certain number of individuals of simple descent shall be affiliated with the Churches. ... And since there used to be asked questions about what the nobiliary habit is (the habit being variously understood) we explain this issue to the extent that is required by the Statute, and specifically that only the one shall be worthy of the name of nobleman and deserving of being awarded the specified dignities and Ecclesiastical endowment, whose both parents were noblemen... We wish that also the following individuals be classified as those belonging to the nobiliary estate, and specifically those whose Mother was of simple extraction but whose Father was a Nobleman, ..." - Nihil Novi sine communi consensu
From the Patrilineality article:
"In the Bible, family and tribal membership appears to be transmitted through the father. For example, a person is considered to be a priest or Levite if his father is a priest or Levite, and the members of all the twelve tribes are called Israelites because their father is Israel (Jacob). Because of this they are called the 'chosen people' by virtue of being 'sons of Israel'; that is, the biological male descendants of Israel, who is referred to as their 'father' in the sense that he is their lineal male ancestor."
The law says:
"Children born under a legitimate marriage shall always follow the condition of the father, never the mother. Co. Litt. 123; Black's, 2d. 305; Lynch v. Clarke, 1 Sandf. Ch. (N.Y.) 583, 660. However, in the case of slaves and animals, the offspring follows the condition of the mother. Inst. 2, 1, 9; 1 Bouv. Inst. n. 167, 502." "He who is born outside of lawful matrimony, or of an unlawful one, follows the condition of the mother. C.L.M.; Cycl. Dict. 840."
Landed estates were patrimonies, key letters "patri" as in Patriarchy.
Citing the statutes of the Polish Nobility Association in Poland ( http://www.szlachta.org.pl/en/), descent from the noble father is required:
"§ 13. 1. Both Polish and foreign citizens become Ordinary Members regardless of their place of residence if they meet the requirements listed in this Paragraph.
2. The following persons may be accepted as Members:
1) descendents of Nobles in the direct male line (the son or daughter of a noble father)"
Quoting the Polish Nobility Association Foundation
"In ancient times, the nobility was the ruling class of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with the exclusive right to enjoy full citizenship. Nobility was hereditary in the male line, and the knight's shield was an outward sign of this."
http://pnaf.us/pnaf-history.html
And a quote from Rafal Heydel-Mankoo ( http://heydel-mankoo.com/):
"Nobility has always been traced along a patrilineal descent (only real exceptions being Scotland and Portugal where a man may become armigerous through his mother--after application to the Court of Lord Lyon for Scottish cases). In Spain in 1997 the Spanish Constitutional Tribunal ruled that the Spanish law which gave equality to the sexes was not to be applied to titles of nobility. (The case dealt with the title of Conde de Cardona with Grandeeship). Even so in Spain titles may pass along maternal lines if several criteria are met. (The Polish Puslowski family for example may be able to rejuvenate certain dormant Spanish titles which were possessed by the Pignatelli d'Aragon y Cortes family) ... Those who are interested might wish to check the web-site of Guy Stair Sainty's web-site it the foremost internet-based source on such matters. Mr. Stair-Sainty is an internationally recognised expert on nobiliary law and orders of chivalry."
Sainty website: https://web.archive.org/web/20130102023701/http://www.chivalricorders.org:80/index3.htm
quoting POLISH NOBILITY AND ITS HERALDRY: AN INTRODUCTION by Piotr Pawel Bajer
"Szlachta was rightly cautious, however, when it believed that not all ennobled persons were worthy of this honour. It's apprehension was even more justified by the rapid increase in the number of the ennoblements owed to merits rendered doubtful by szlachta. For example, there was a curious situation in the University of Cracow where after ten years of service the professors were granted a nobility for life. After a twenty-year service, however, this nobility grant was becoming hereditary. Because many of the ennobled were priests, their privileges could be passed on to their brothers or male lineal descendants."
https://web.archive.org/web/20160504225306/http://podolska.neostrada.pl/teksty/heraldry.htm
AQUINAS, THOMAS. "SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Supplement to the Third Part (Supplementum Tertiæ Partis): Question 52. The impediment of the condition of slavery". "Now slavery is a condition of the body, since a slave is to the master a kind of instrument in working; wherefore children follow the mother in freedom and bondage; whereas in matters pertaining to dignity as proceeding from a thing's form, they follow the father, for instance in honors, franchise, inheritance and so forth. The canons are in agreement with this (cap. Liberi, 32, qu. iv, in gloss.: cap. Inducens, De natis ex libero ventre) as also the law of Moses (Exodus 21). ... It is because the son derives honor from his father rather than from his mother that in the genealogies of Scripture, and according to common custom, children are named after their father rather than from their mother. But in matters relating to slavery they follow the mother by preference."
https://web.archive.org/web/20170507201232/http://newadvent.org/summa/5052.htm
Consider ancient Rome, divided into two classes: the patricians, or those who could identify their father ("patri" from whence comes "patrician"), and the plebeians, or those who could not. The plebeians were a racially mixed lot, and at one time probably ran in tribes, were polygamous and profligate, with their blood and lineage coming from a mother considered queen of the tribe.
Also, there's the matter of the Y chromosome:
"The Y chromosome is passed only from father to son."
Exxess ( talk) 20:46, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
re: per my last edit on blood lines.
Maybe we can add Racism to the list, from German "Rasse", originally from Italian "Razza", via French "Race". Also Old High German "Reiza": "line".
The Polish equivalent is "Rasa" and caries the connotation of stock/breed. ie: "Rasa psów", which is "Breed of Dog" (essentially Blood 'line', like 'reiza'); it's been strangely transposed. 76.69.76.140 ( talk) 14:16, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
"The nobleman's sense of distinction led to practices that in later periods would be characterized as racism." - This quotation has been removed! Obvious tampering. In fact, nearly all instances of the word 'race' have been removed. I believe this is what you call the 'manufacture of credibility'; where none exists. This article is now rubbish. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Szlachta&diff=867093972&oldid=867078949 (the edit in which it was removed). Obvious bias, as the account is Polish and made dozens of edits. Changed to: "some noblemen's sense of superiority was said to lead to practices that sometimes approximated to bullying and slavery". Bullying? LMAO... where is the correct citation for this garbage? The old one is still there but the quote was arbitrarily altered. According to this: https://books.google.ca/books?id=Pe9oAAAAMAAJ&dq=isbn%3A0231053517&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=racist the word racism/racist exist on page 233, but it's cropped out. The quote seems to have been altered to the one that is visible in this small excerpt. It was Googled, not original source. 174.95.203.52 ( talk) 13:33, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
NOTE: Editor is referring to the Khmelnytsky Uprising (1648-57), a mass movement against the Citizens of Poland (the Polish nobility aka szlachta) known as the Cossack-Polish War - Exxess ( talk) 16:52, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Although born as Litwin and as Litwin I will die, but Polish idiom we must use in our homeland.
— Janusz Radziwiłł, in letter to his brother Krzysztof Radziwiłł
Reference uses specific words "anti-Polish" in article by eminent Ukrainian historian Orest Subtelny, University of Toronto, about Khmelnytsky Uprising aka Cossack-Polish War, "...and anti-noble and anti-Polish revolts also broke out there. ... Zhdanovych tried to hold the anti-Polish front but did not succeed." User Korwinski deletes reference because has peculiar idea Khmelnytsky Uprising was not "anti-Polish." Encyclopædia Britannica states the same thing, but not using specific words "anti-Polish," but rather, "...Cossack resentment of Polish authority..." Is it wrong to state "anti-Polish Khmelnytsky Uprising"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exxess ( talk • contribs) 20:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Just to clarify: User Exxess in the past couple of days managed to violate WP:Consensus, start WP:Edit war and I'm pretty sure hate speech is not something wikipedia users should be using here in discussion. Just shows level of... well, you got what I mean. Also user ignored all of my sources and still added his questionable ones to the article despite them contradicting ones I've added. I should remind that this article is about the szlachta of Kingdom of Poland, and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia, which after the Union of Lublin in 1569 became a single state. It is not article about szlachta of just Kingdom of Poland, or just szlachta of Polish descent or szlachta of Bohemia, Hungary etc. Szlachta of Zaporozhian Host should be stated in the article as it was part of szlachta of PLC until they decided to join Uprising or later (up until Second half of XVIII century) move to Zaporozhian Host for different reasons creating Malorossian szlachta. Ivan Sulyma, Mykhailo Krychevsky, Krzysztof Kosiński, Prince Dmytro Vyshnevetsky, Przecław Lanckoroński, Ivan Mazepa, Prince pl:Bohdan Różyński, pl:Jakub Ostrzanin, pl:Jan Oryszowski, Petro Konashevych-Sahaidachny, Pylyp Orlyk, Mykhailo Khanenko, Prince Michał Wiśniowiecki (1529–1584) or Samuel Zborowski were all szlachta of PLC, despite their actions against the crown or king himself.
Also if it makes any difference I'm of Polish szlachta descent myself (hence the username). Clarifications and edits I've added to the article where to expand it and show that Szlachta (especially in XV-XVII century) were ethnically more diverse. As during time of the Commonwealth "Polish" was used as a name for political nation of the Commonwealth and it should not be mistaken with modern Polish nation. But still my actions and edit showed no offence or disregard to Polish people (as I'm myself 1/4 Polish, that would be just stupid), and also claims about my Ukrainian nationalism in here I can only add to the list of other nonsense written by user Exxess in my regard. But in case it is unknown to user Exxess, Galicia had largest part of minor nobility of the former PWC. And mostly they were not polonized Ukrainian-speaking Greek Catholics. And obviously many of them joined nationalists. pl:Kateryna Zaryćka, Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych etc had full or partial szlachta ancestry. See Western Ukrainian clergy and Ukrainian nobility of Galicia. But since it is not subject of this our discussion, I see not point stating "nationalism" nonsense here.
American and especially French revolutions created meaning of modern nation states, and nations in modern sense. Before, citizens were subjects of the crown, and were socially divided. While sharing (or not) religion, language etc, but the most important - state they were living in, they did not identify as a whole. In Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, lower classes even by speaking Polish and belonging to Roman Catholic church did not belong and did not identify as part of Polish political nation:
The older peasants called themselves Masurians, and their speech Masurian ... I myself did not know that I was a Pole till I began to read books and papers, and I fancy that other villagers came to be aware of the national attachment in much the same way. [2]
Members of Polish szlachta disregarded peasants up until XIX century. But even then such opinion was still common between. In the mid-19th century one of the three greatest Polish poets Zygmunt Krasiński wrote to his English friend Henry Reeve:
"Believe me and rest assured that apart from aristocracy there’s nothing in Poland: no talent, no bright minds, nor sense of sacrifice. Our third state [bourgeoisie] is nonsense; our peasants are machines. Only we [nobles] are Poland. [3]
In my opinion the best and quickest way to resolve this would be to find out what was identity of szlachta of PLC. Now if we look into this questions and publication regarding that, we will see that sources state that szlachta was "narod polityczny (political nation)" [4] [5]. What does that mean?:
Proces kształtowania się nowoczesnej wspólnoty narodowej w polskiej re eksji rozpoczął się pod koniec XVIII stulecia. W powszechnym wyobrażeniu był to naród polityczny składający się z różnych grup etnicznych o odmiennych kulturach, językach, religii. [6]
Now the source above is regarding Polish identity in end of XVIII-XIX century, when modern Polish identity was being formed. While modern Ukrainian, Belorussian and Lithuanian identity just started to form. The best option resolve this case is to actually use source that describes national consciousness for that time XVI-XVII Century. Polish source preferable I assume. So Stanislaw Kot and his “ Swiadomosc narodowa w Polsce wieku XV-XVII”:
I tak znienacka gentes poszcegolne zlewaly sie w jedna natio, ktora nie oznaczala jak dawniej obywateli jednego panstwa, choc roznego pochodzenia I jezyka, ale obywateli jednego zjednoczonych w jednej wspolnocie jezyka, instytucyj, a co najwazniejsza – jednej polskiej swiadomosci narodowej […] Oto gdy wiezia narodowa przestal byc jezyk I wspolne pochodzenie, a staly sie nia swobody polityczne I udzial w zyciu publicznym, pojecie narodu ogranicz sie do tej tylko warstwy, ktora byla uprawniona do zycia politycznego.
Tak wiec narodem polskim od XVI w., zwlaszcza od jego polowy stala sie warstwa wyzsa w ziemiach korony, bez wzgledu no pochodzenie etniczne, jezyk, religie, zreszta zwolna ku jednosci jezyka I religii sie sklaniajaca zlaczona przywilejami I korzysciami stanowymi, wspolna ich obrona wytwarzajaca wspolna tradycje w wyraznym przeciwienstwie do chlopstwa rodzimego, ktore odsuwano od poczucia I korzysci wspolnosci narodowej, torujac przy tym droge do zacierania u chlopow swiadomosci narodowej, co ulatwialo na ziemiach wschodnich zlewanie sie chlopa polskiego z ruskim.
As we can see by Khmelnytsky Uprising “Polish nation” meant meant szlachta of different ethnic background and identity. Ruthenian and Lithuanian szlachta despite polonization continue to recognise their Lithuanian and Ruthenian identity. Hetman Janusz Radziwill (future rival of Khmelnytsky) wrote to his brother:
Although born as Litwin and as Litwin I will die, but Polish idiom we must use in our homeland.
And as Janusz Tazbir said regarding Radziwill's statements:
Choć obaj magnaci nie potrafili już mówić w swym ojczystym języku, to jednak posiadali tak silne poczucie na- rodowej odrębności, że niepodobna ich uznać za Polaków. Ostateczną instancję stanowi subiektywne kryterium przynależności do danej wspólnoty etnicznej: skoro uważali się za Litwinów, to i nimi naprawdę byli. Używana przez szlacheckich przedstawicieli innych grup etnicznych polszczyzna była po prostu językiem państwowym (Staatssprache), a posługiwanie się nią wiązało się poniekąd z istnieniem „Polaka politycznego”, członka warstwy rządzącej, kogoś, kto korzysta ze wszystkich jej przywilejów. [7]
While Ruthnian nobility more and more started to identify as gente Rutheni, natione Poloni. By natio Poloni meaning belonging to Polish political nation aka szlachta [8].
Considering that so many of the szlachta fought on Cossack side, it would be simply misleading to use "Anti-Polish" statement here without clarification. Mykhailo Krychevsky, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Ivan Vyhovsky, Zhdanovych etc were all szlachta. Pinsk szlachta, Liubech szlachta etc joined rebellion, that did not mean that they were not szlachta anymore or any less of political nation of the state (see Confederation (Poland)). Yes, sources provided by user Exxess specify "Anti-Polish", but they do not specify reason for using such terminology. And also "Ukraine" at the time meant area of Kiev and Braclaw voivodeship, and "Belorussia" were called lands in between Minsk and Moscow. Obviously we cannot use such terminology, otherwise we go straight for Caesar being great Italian leader or Višeslav the great King of Yugoslavia. It is not vital to this article. It does not change any of the facts, so I see no point in keeping it.
Now lets go over user Excess statements:
Khmelnytsky Uprising was thoroughly ANTI-POLISH through and through, ideologically and ethnically
As we can see above "Anti-polish" was more like "Anti-rich, catholic (both Roman and Uniate) szlachta", and even that is not correct definition. For example Sylvester Kosiv (Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev, Galicia and All-Ruthenia):
In 1647 he became the metropolitan of Kiev. It happened just before the Khmelnytsky Uprising, a time of uncertainty in Ukraine and in the Ruthenian church. Kosov himself was strongly opposed to union with Tsardom of Russia, and also against unreserved alliance with Poland. He condemned the 1654 treaty of Pereyaslav between the Cossack Hetmanate and the Tsardom of Muscovy. Despite being critical of some of the policies of the Cossacks, he attempted to rectify the situation and along with the Patriarch of Jerusalem Paiseus gave Bohdan Khmelnytsky a hero's welcome when he entered Kiev in 2 January 1649 (Old Style 23 December 1648). Kosiv strived for an independent Ruthenian Orthodox Church that would be only under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople, and he fought against the subjugation of the Kiev metropolate to Moscow.
Or Prince Zakhariy Swiatopolk-Chetvertynsky of Orthodox faith (also father of another Orthodox metroplite Gedeon (Svyatopolk-Chetvertynsky)) who signed appointment of Sylvester Kosiv as a metropolitan, died during Battle of Zborow fighting Cossacks. Or Ivan Vyhovsky who:
was captured by Khmelnystsky's rebel Cossack forces at the Battle of Zhovti Vody in May 1648, he was freed on account of his education and experience and rose to become secretary-general or chancellor (heneralny pysar) of the Cossacks and one of Khmelnytsky's closest advisors.
Ideologically? As I stated and provided sources above, sarmatism was vital part of Cossack culture, but obviously adopted in their own version. Here are just a few sarmatian portraits of Cossack szlachta to compare with szlachta portraits on PLC counterparts: Mykhaylo Myklashevsky of Ostoja Coat of Arms, Hryhoriy Hamaleya of Deja Coat of Arms, Semen Sulyma of Sulyma Coat of Arms etc. Literature works I've already specify above, but here's another by Stefan Yavorsky of Sas coat of arms, about Sulima coat of arms of uk:Іван Обидовський (nephew of hetman Ivan Mazeppa). Very "not-Sarmatic". Both Mazeppa (whose father in 1662 position of Chernihiv Podczaszy from John II Casimir, and he himself served in his court) and Obidovsky, whose mother was Mazeppa's sister were as much szlachta as in any other living at that time in that area.
Peasants born on territory once belonging to OLD POLAND were ANTI-POLISH
As I've provided sources above. Polish (as in Catholic and speaking Polish) peasants did not identify as Polish. Actually source you provided there is regarding Galicia in XIX century. And Galician slaughter executed by Polish peasants on Polish counterparts of Galicia against Polish szlachta is a good example of why "Anti-Polish" is very misleading here.
szlachta, who originated in OLD POLAND, with an admixture of knights arriving from what is now Germany and Bohemia - not the Ukraine, not Russia, not Lithuania, not Ruthenium
Again. This article is about szlachta of PLC. Not of Polish szlachta before Union of Horodło. And even then, after capturing Galicia back in mid XIV century, Ruthenian nobility quickly received nobility. Piotr of Klecia and his son Dymitr of Goraj are a good example of that.
Ukrainians/Cossacks to be szlachta (Citizens of Poland) need to have a Polish coat of arms, evidence of formal ennoblement by a Polish King or Sejm, which needs documentation with reputable sources.
There was no such thing as "Citizens of Poland" at the time. Subjects of the King or member of "Polish nation" (which as I've provided sources above meant szlachta, not Polish nation in modern sense. After liquidation of Zaporozhian host, Malorossian szlachta had to prove their nobility to Russian Government. Just like szlachta later had to. Those who could prove it, received it. Otherwise declassification to peasants or townsman.
The government was trying to incorporate the upper echelons of the Cossack officer stratum without opening the door too wide and allowing the ennoblement of tens of thousands of well-to-do Cossacks whose ancestors had held elective office in the army and the civil administration of the Hetmanate. The authorities were desperate to avoid a situation in which the number of recognized nobles in the former Hetmanate would be many times greater than in the Russian gubernias of the empire. They vacillated, recognizing the noble status of some officeholders but not others, granting it one day and taking it away the next. Policy remained in flux until the late eighteenth century, when Emperor Paul I decided to compile a new register of the imperial nobility. According to the imperial decree of 1797, families claiming noble status had to submit documents proving their noble origins, which turned out to be a problem for many of them. [9]
Korwinski's dubious-dual-Citizenship assertions - the Szlachta article makes it apparent that szlachta (noble) equals Citizen of Poland.
Please specify where I said either of those things? Citizenship did not exist yet. Residents and subjects of the Crown? Yes. Citizens - no.
members of the Cossack Hetmanate were EVER Citizens of Poland, aka szlachta, or were ever ennobled by any King or Sejm of Poland
Please specify a source that states that most of residents of Zaporozhian Host were not former residents of PLC? Regarding ennoblement please see quote above.
...there are claims...
No claims. It is a historical fact. Sources 1, 2, 3, 4. Any number. You name it.
...composed of a majority of Cossacks...'
Majority of the population of any state at that time were peasants. Come on.
...without a Polish coat of arms...
Modzalevsky and his work “ Malorossian armorial” would strongly disagree with you. Just in case another source with more information and images 1. Or you can use Herbarz Polski od Średniowiecza do XX wieku (Polish Armorials from the Middle Ages to the 20th century) by Tadeusz Gajl. pl:Aleksandrowicz małorosyjski for example should ring a bell.
they were never formally ennobled by any King or Sejm of Poland, and so "self-identified" as szlachta...
While receiving dvorianstvo of Russian Empire, they actually had to provide documents and prove their nobility and szlachta (just like szlachta from Right-bank). About 100000 (out of ~ 1000000 whole male population of Zaporozhian Host) claimed to have szlachta ancetry. Only about 20000 were able to prove it. The rest had to receive dvorianstvo via government service, officer ranks etc. The rest (just like szlachta from Right-bank) mainly declassified to peasants with personal freedom, right for private owning of their land, right to belong to Malorossian kozak sosloviye, and right to prove their right for dvorianstvo in the future. Korwinski ( talk) 17:45, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Ukrainian populace, particularly the Cossacks and peasants, against the Polish Commonwealth. Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky assumed leadership of the Ukrainian forces. The war can be divided into six phases. January–November 1648. In this period a series of brilliant Cossack victories aroused the whole Ukrainian people
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I did not read all coments here, BUT: as a re to some of you
Yes if you what the historical facts you need the word 'szlachta'! this is due to the fact, that the polish gentry has a differ a lot from thet of thier neighbors.
and yes the 'szlachta' considert them self as nobels NOT citizens! one has to also see this in the european context of noblemen. best proof is that the 'szlachta' could marry with other nobles in europe. citizens were not permited. Poland also had citizens. eg: the cities Gdansk/Danzig e. a.
before you make wied statements read up. But make sure you dont just use one sided books. (like polish school books ... wuppy! Poland is the holly nation [ironic]) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.93.41.161 ( talk) 10:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Do we really need this term 'szlachta' ??? let's stick to the 'noblemen'.
This is about specific Polish-only class, not general Noblemen. -- Taw
Not really, there was Nobility in all European states. In some states it was as highly privileged as in Poland. In some countries it was just a mere paper title. But in all of them it is called "nobilitas" - Nobility. The word "szlachta" in today's Polish has w very broad meaning, covering both the historic Polish nobility as well as some burlesque knoghthoods conferred by today's monarch. But this article is about the original nobility.
Hello, guys. Maybe you have forgotten to give some information about ukrainian gentry, haven't you ?
Hello Polish contributors -- Could you plese try to remember that, in English, we use a lot of articles -- 'a', 'an', and 'the' -- before nouns? It would help a lot. Also, if you are going to keep a term in its native language (unless it is common English usage) the term should be italicized every time. Finally, it would be very nice if you would provide pronunciation guides for polish words. One of the reasons so many Eastern European cities are known by their German names is that English speakers have long been more familiar with German (plus the fact that German was the Imperial language...). If you want the correct Polish names to gain currency, people need to be able to pronounce them -- otherwise, they'll look for easier, non-Polish equivalents that they can remember! Thanks for the help -- HK
Indeed, articles are our problem :D
Anyway, the term is used in british publications as well, although it might not be that popular among the general population... Could you possibly post a link that would lead me to some foreign diacrites chart? Does Wiki support phonetical script at all?
As a temporary solution I will add the polish-for-dummies name version.
BTW, we should consider adding some paragraph describing the differences between polish szlachta and all the other gentry social groups in Europe. Halibutt 19:00, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Corrected the transcription. Please note that the Polish "sz" is NOT the same as the English "sh". -Arael
"Poland was called the Republic (Rzeczpospolita)" I see it like this:
Republika = Republic
Rzeczpospolita = Commonwealth
Hence, I think commonwealth would suit Rzeczpospolita better in terms of style.
[Edit by Jakub] Summing it up
To do list moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Articles. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:17, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Od czasu do czasu wrzucam nowe obrazki do mojej galerii - "niewykorzystanych", zwiazanych z historia, jezeli ktos ma pomysl gdzie powstawiac, niech przebiera :) - Galeria.-- Emax 16:56, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
First off, Poland was around before germany was, and Poland had a government when the germans where still in tribes. Also germans would attack the pole and lose, so the germans took there Word as fear. also the polish had a very free people, yes the szlachta had voting right but also mad up 95% of the military. also you are discribing english noblity in golden freedom not polish, Piotrus. and the polish people are starting to know this.
The word "Szlachta" was borrowed in Romanian as "Şleahtă", with a changed meaning: "a gang or mob of people with dubious intentions" and it's almost always used as a pejorative. Any idea why they became so unfamous ? Bogdan | Talk 14:28, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Polish word szlachta comes most certainly from Middle High German geslaht (today's Geschlecht), meaning family. One can see that none of you except Halibutt has studied Germanic languages. -- Alexvonf 09:50, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, I think the case for szlactha being German-derived is pretty good; if you consider the preponderance of the evidence: rycerz/ritter, pancerni/panzer etc., it starts to look like to look like most of the feudal terminology was German-derived. The Lech derivation looks like a charming folk etymology. (An interesting comparison would be to see what Bohemian nobles were called. "Czecthta?" I doubt it. Why were the Russian (and I believe Bulgarian) nobility called "boyars," not "Russars" or "Bulgars?" Were they just not as conscious of their roots as the Sons of Lech?)-- Jpbrenna 17:23, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the Etymology section needs to be re-written. The meaning of at least two sentences is unclear, and there is no logical 'flow' from one sentence to the next. In fact, the third to last sentence ("Some would even become...") I still don't understand after reading it three times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Star-lists ( talk • contribs) 09:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Why are you thinking that the polish take words for the germans, this is the same german and russian propaganda I hear everywhere. Next you'll say that the arabs stole words from the spanish, but not the other way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Modern Szlachta ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The Szabla article seems to link the szabla sword to the nobility; added to the bloody-type derivations I see, I think this likely. Other nobilties (Hapsburg, Buckingham Palace) got their starts with swords. My 2 cents.-- John Bessa ( talk) 19:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
It's a matter of usages in Polish and English. English seldom uses "Mr. + [title]." There may be a few rare exceptions, e.g. "Mr. President" or "Mr. Mayor." But one doesn't say "Mr. Doctor," "Mr. Professor," "Mr. Engineer," "Mr. General" or "Mr. Brother." I find it hard to imagine an anglicized Polish nobleman saying, "Mr. Brother." I think he would say, simply, "Brother." (Cf. " Br'er Rabbit.") logologist 23:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've seen it argued (but can't remember where, so you'll have to treat this as unsourced) that the szlachta are a citizen class and not a noble one. This is a narrow citizenry, in the same manner as Athens or Rome (or the antebellum South) rather than the modern universal citizenry, of course, but there are some citizen-like characteristics to the szlachta, as well as the many noble-like characteristics. In particular, mutual equality and the use of law in their relations with each other are very citizen-like.
I'm not at all sure how to even start putting this into the article - for a start, I'd need to dig up the source and I've just read too much Polish history over the years to even know where to start - but I thought I'd throw it out there as an alternative view for the rest of you to chew over.
The article states that the reasons for this privilige was: "a compensation for the unsuccessful incursion on Moldavia which had decimated the szlachta". However the incursion and the Polish defeat actually took place a year later, in 1497 ( Battle of the Cosmin Forest). Until this is verified and explained, I moved this sentence here.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The Good article nomination for Szlachta/Archive 1 has failed, for the following reason:
Szlachta and Poland in general is anything but tolerant. Ukraine unionist church is great example. QuestPc 13:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
It is RELATIVE. And this specically refers to religious matter of a certain era. Poland was the only place in Europe where a non-Christian could occasionally be ennobled without conversion. Galassi 14:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Also to me it seems that this section isn't balanced enough. The Szlachta-part of the population constituted several million individuals. Surely there must have been many people within this group with extreme views towards people with other religious beliefs; just as there were many people with great understanding towards other creeds. Which of these tendencies were stronger is difficult to prove. One or a few documents don't prove anything, since just by accident a "bad apple" among mostly good apples could be picked; just as the opposite could be true. In any case such claims, as are currently made in the article, must be proven with references. As it now stands it rather gives the reader a feeling that the writer for some reason wants to protect the Szlachta against claims that it would not have been tolerant towards Jews and Non-catholic Christians. -- Smallchanges 16:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
The lead states: "Szlachta (['ʃlaxta] (help·info)) Lithuanian: Bajorai, was the noble class in Poland, Ukraine and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the three countries that later jointly formed the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth." Is this entirely accurate? Many parts of present day countries were covered by the PLC, why is Ukraine singled out? Ukraine wasn't part of the Union of Lublin. JRWalko 23:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
You're right it shouldn't be singled out. Ukraine at the time of Union of Lubin wasn't a country - part belonged to Crown (Poland) and part to Grand Duchy of Lithuania. There were projects of creating Commonwealt of Tree Nations (see: XVII century - Khmelnytsky rebellion) but it was never really done. Ayway not everyone would agree with using the term "szlachta" while speaking about Cossacks starshyna (as Commonwealth nobility wouldn't let them be seen as "szlachta" and those that owned most of land on that territory were families listed as Lithuanians or "adopted" into Polish nobile families, see: Union of Horodło and what Sigismund II Augustus done to "persuade" magnats from Lithuania to sign the Union of Lublin). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrząszcz ( talk • contribs) Feb 26, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.30.197.161 ( talk) 17:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The original sentence read:
'A Polish nobleman living at this time before the 15th century was referred to as a "rycerz" (German "ritter"), very roughly equivalent to the English "knight", the critical difference being the status of "rycerz" WAS strictly hereditary; the class of all such individuals was known as the "rycerstwo".'
This was changed to 'the status of "rycerz" WASN'T strictly hereditary ...,' the reason being cited as "correction done in face of strong evidence to the contrary."
This so-called "strong evidence to the contrary" is not produced and stating the rycerz WASN'T strictly hereditary obliterates the critical difference of English knights from the Polish rycerz, and obliterates the very meaning of the original sentence.
Produce the strong evidence to the contrary before making such a change.
The stated hereditary status of the Polish rycerz is based off the work of scholar TADEUSZ MANTEUFFEL, "The Formation of the Polish State: The Period of Ducal Rule, 963-1194" (Detroit, MICHIGAN, U.S.A.: WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY PRESS, 1982), cited in the footnotes.
Keep in mind the period and years under discussion, a time no later than 1400 A.D., and including a hereditary tradition originating much earlier in antiquity. Ties of blood were the strictest assurance of loyalty and solidarity in those ancient times, when warfare was every man's stock and trade. -- Exxess ( talk) 20:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have no Idea how to give a reference to a PART OF an article. the reason I created this article is that in the fictional universe of The World of Darkness, a 'race' of ghouls exists. These ghouls are created, or fleshcrafted, by the Tzimisce clan of vampires. this 'race' is referred to as Szlachta. I thought it would be good to create a 'see the disambiguation page' for the word szlachta.
Apparently I'm not as good a Wikipedia editor as I thought I was.
Please help...?!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkruijff ( talk • contribs)
The reasoning behind the move was as explained in the edit summaries:
In more detail:
As one can see by clicking on these Google Book results, even the academic literature presents the terms as "the Polish nobility, the szlachta,...". In other words, though only the Polish term may be used later, the English term is used first even in academic literature, and "szlachta" is never used without first being explained. It is not English and cannot be used as an article title in an encyclopedia meant for the general public. There is no reason to violate one of the most important WP policies, to use English terms as article titles: Wikipedia:ENGLISH
See also all the other articles on European nobilities in WP - they have English instead of foreign article names, like it should be: Category:European_nobility
And Norman Davies specifically says here that "/szlachta/ should be translated as 'nobility'" -- Espoo ( talk) 21:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
1) M.K., you ignored that my edit cleaned up the incomprehensibly long definition by splitting it into parts and that has fortunately stayed. 2) You simply ignored what i wrote above:
As one can see by clicking on these Google Book results, even the academic literature presents the terms as "the Polish nobility, the szlachta,...". In other words, though only the Polish term may be used later, the English term is used first even in academic literature, and "szlachta" is never used without first being explained. It is not English and cannot be used as an article title in an encyclopedia meant for the general public. There is no reason to violate one of the most important WP policies, to use English terms as article titles: Wikipedia:ENGLISH.
As an article name, szlachta is a very bad idea not only because it violates WP:English but because it's completely incomprehensible to WP's target audience, general readers, who will find this article unnecessarily difficult or will not read it at all. There is no reason we cannot use Polish-Lithuanian nobility. In fact, since the Lithuanian nobility joined the Polish nobility, my original move was not incorrect at all though you're right that many would consider it misleading. -- Espoo ( talk) 09:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Is it correct to call the magnates "aristocracy"? Aristocracy is supposed to be much more than that. It's not enough to be wealthy to be an aristocrat, or should we write that there are aristocrats in the US? Bill Gates? The Kennedy Clan? The Bushes?
Why not just call them magnates, as they're called by historians anyway?
Really? There were just 7 ordynacjas. Out of them 4 were short lived: Jarosławska 1470-1519 (49 years), Ostrogska 1609-1766 (dissolved after many law suits and after changing hands many times), Ostrowska 1740-1775 (35 years), and the Sułkowskis' since 1775 (just 20 years before the Partitions of Poland) Is it really supposed to explain the alleged aristocratic status of the families in the Old Republic?
Only 2-3 were successful: the Radziwiłłs' since 1586, the Zamoyskis' since 1589, and Pińczowska since 1601 (but this one was quite small - only 3 cities and tens of villages, it fell out early in the 19th century).
The majority of the magnates never even asked to have an ordynacja created for them. The Polish ordynacja wasn't the same as the English fee tail. It wasn't just about keeping the property together. An ordynat had huge duties. He had to keep a private army, build fortifications, support all of his relatives, and do anything the Sejm required to be allowed to create an ordynacja. Simply many magnates couldn't afford it, that's why the ordynacjas failed.
Are you sure the Potockis had an ordynacja in the Old Republic? The Lubomirskis only inherited an ordynacja which had to be dissolved. That reduces your list to two names. Perhaps it'd be good to compare how many of them had it and how many did not, and then write something less general? After all we're speaking only of several families anyway.
What does the Rzeź galicyjska have to do with the Old Republic's szlachta anyway? It was another country and another social structure. It was no longer szlachta, only the Austrian aristocracy, because the few who kept their land became Austrian aristocrats after the Partitions.
Perhaps it's be better to write about aristocracy after the Partitions of Poland and after szlachta had lost its status? Then there were really many aristocrats in the Russian, Austrian and Prussian courts, and at that time tens of ordynacjas were created, the majority of which survived until WWII, but they had nothing to do with the Old Republic's szlachta, or the szlachta's law that made ordynacja very difficult to create and keep.-- 178.73.50.48 ( talk) 20:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Is anyone still following this page ?? I would like to add the appropriate information in the references section. Rogala ( talk) 14:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
By all means, be bold and improve the page in any way you can. If you have any specific questions, try WT:POLAND as well. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:56, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Quick fail due to insufficient citations. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:57, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
This article is in the main pure fiction. It ignores history and the fact that in Poland we had two casts one being the Lechici the other Kmiecie. Lechici being the warrior cast the Kmiecie common free folk during middle ages. Otherwise where did in 1750 the 60% of Polish, then serves population come from?? Mars?? They were initially all equal in law but differed in clan’s rules. All initially owned land but under a different conditions or terms. Artisans and city folk did also come from Kmiecie cast .Well if I had to rate it I would give it, like all the German Nazi propaganda on this site, a z grade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.15.76.15 ( talk) 10:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Please join the discussion in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Heraldry and vexillology#Polish heraldry and genealogy about how to correctly handle historical Polish concepts "ród", "ród herbowy" vs. "House" & "Clan", etc. Staszek Lem ( talk) 18:16, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
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It is disputed whether Zaporozhians were part of szlachta, it is therefore best if we don't mention it. Internet sources wouldn't be enough. A proper historical analysis is required. Oliszydlowski (TALK), 13:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
How strange that there's no Polish version of an article that deals with such a Polish topic! 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 14:12, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
...lowest percentage of nobles Kiev, Braclaw...
5th revision of 1794 says there was 7,72% of szlachta in Kiev Governorate, 6,73% in Volhynian Governorate and 8,88% in Podolian Governorate. And thats excluding Clergy (~1,5% in every Governorate), which in most cases was szlachta as well. Mykola Krykun Palatinates of Right-Bank Ukraine in the Sixteenth through Eighteenth Centuries: Studies and Source Materials. Lviv 2012. 702 p., ill., maps. ISBN 978-617-607-240-9 See p. 586
The greatest concentrations of impoverished nobles (szlachta zagrodowa) could be found in the palatinates of Masovia, Podlachia and Lublin.
We already mentioned above that at least 3/4 (or 75%) of all Lithuanian szlachta was minor nobility. page 10 And about high concentration of szlachta in Mazovia etc. No point of mentioning again in the same paragraph.
3% of szlachta in Galicia
I would leave it out, as here are two sources that would give us:
1) 6% according to L. Slivka. (2004). УКРАЇНСЬКА ШЛЯХЕТСЬКА ЕЛІТА: ПРОЯВИ САМОСВІДОМОСТІ ДРІБНОЇ ШЛЯХТИ ГАЛИЧИНИ НАПРИКІНЦІ ХVІІІ – НА ПОЧАТКУ ХХ ст. The Ukrainian Noble Elite: View of self-image of the Galician Petty Gentry from the end of the eighteenth until the beginning of the 20th centuries. (Ukrainian) Ivano-Frankivsk: Ivano-Frankivsk State Medical University.
2) About 10% (no figure in the article, but it would be about 300 000 mentioned in the article out of ~3 150 000 as I recall) according to Zarys działalności Związku Szlachty Zagrodowej w latach 1938-1939
Korwinski ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:52, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Someone in Poland, very knowledgeable, perhaps ideally a Polish noble, needs to challenge the following in the Szlachta article:
"Later, as marriages by a noble—male or female—to a commoner became more frequent, children inherited nobility from their noble parent. And a noble girl married to a commoner could transmit nobility to her husband and to all their children."
There's no citation, and it flies in the face of history, and seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking, that nobility would be transmitted through the mother.
From the 1505 General Seym in Radom and Its Nihil Novi Statutes, stating nobility follows the father, not the mother:
"Let no one be received to the Cathedral and Parish Churches in our Kingdom for the Bishoprics, Prelatries, Canonries but only those that cure nobles by birth to both parents of nobiliary status, and those who are reared in the nobiliary habit. Yet a certain number of individuals of simple descent shall be affiliated with the Churches. ... And since there used to be asked questions about what the nobiliary habit is (the habit being variously understood) we explain this issue to the extent that is required by the Statute, and specifically that only the one shall be worthy of the name of nobleman and deserving of being awarded the specified dignities and Ecclesiastical endowment, whose both parents were noblemen... We wish that also the following individuals be classified as those belonging to the nobiliary estate, and specifically those whose Mother was of simple extraction but whose Father was a Nobleman, ..." - Nihil Novi sine communi consensu
From the Patrilineality article:
"In the Bible, family and tribal membership appears to be transmitted through the father. For example, a person is considered to be a priest or Levite if his father is a priest or Levite, and the members of all the twelve tribes are called Israelites because their father is Israel (Jacob). Because of this they are called the 'chosen people' by virtue of being 'sons of Israel'; that is, the biological male descendants of Israel, who is referred to as their 'father' in the sense that he is their lineal male ancestor."
The law says:
"Children born under a legitimate marriage shall always follow the condition of the father, never the mother. Co. Litt. 123; Black's, 2d. 305; Lynch v. Clarke, 1 Sandf. Ch. (N.Y.) 583, 660. However, in the case of slaves and animals, the offspring follows the condition of the mother. Inst. 2, 1, 9; 1 Bouv. Inst. n. 167, 502." "He who is born outside of lawful matrimony, or of an unlawful one, follows the condition of the mother. C.L.M.; Cycl. Dict. 840."
Landed estates were patrimonies, key letters "patri" as in Patriarchy.
Citing the statutes of the Polish Nobility Association in Poland ( http://www.szlachta.org.pl/en/), descent from the noble father is required:
"§ 13. 1. Both Polish and foreign citizens become Ordinary Members regardless of their place of residence if they meet the requirements listed in this Paragraph.
2. The following persons may be accepted as Members:
1) descendents of Nobles in the direct male line (the son or daughter of a noble father)"
Quoting the Polish Nobility Association Foundation
"In ancient times, the nobility was the ruling class of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with the exclusive right to enjoy full citizenship. Nobility was hereditary in the male line, and the knight's shield was an outward sign of this."
http://pnaf.us/pnaf-history.html
And a quote from Rafal Heydel-Mankoo ( http://heydel-mankoo.com/):
"Nobility has always been traced along a patrilineal descent (only real exceptions being Scotland and Portugal where a man may become armigerous through his mother--after application to the Court of Lord Lyon for Scottish cases). In Spain in 1997 the Spanish Constitutional Tribunal ruled that the Spanish law which gave equality to the sexes was not to be applied to titles of nobility. (The case dealt with the title of Conde de Cardona with Grandeeship). Even so in Spain titles may pass along maternal lines if several criteria are met. (The Polish Puslowski family for example may be able to rejuvenate certain dormant Spanish titles which were possessed by the Pignatelli d'Aragon y Cortes family) ... Those who are interested might wish to check the web-site of Guy Stair Sainty's web-site it the foremost internet-based source on such matters. Mr. Stair-Sainty is an internationally recognised expert on nobiliary law and orders of chivalry."
Sainty website: https://web.archive.org/web/20130102023701/http://www.chivalricorders.org:80/index3.htm
quoting POLISH NOBILITY AND ITS HERALDRY: AN INTRODUCTION by Piotr Pawel Bajer
"Szlachta was rightly cautious, however, when it believed that not all ennobled persons were worthy of this honour. It's apprehension was even more justified by the rapid increase in the number of the ennoblements owed to merits rendered doubtful by szlachta. For example, there was a curious situation in the University of Cracow where after ten years of service the professors were granted a nobility for life. After a twenty-year service, however, this nobility grant was becoming hereditary. Because many of the ennobled were priests, their privileges could be passed on to their brothers or male lineal descendants."
https://web.archive.org/web/20160504225306/http://podolska.neostrada.pl/teksty/heraldry.htm
AQUINAS, THOMAS. "SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Supplement to the Third Part (Supplementum Tertiæ Partis): Question 52. The impediment of the condition of slavery". "Now slavery is a condition of the body, since a slave is to the master a kind of instrument in working; wherefore children follow the mother in freedom and bondage; whereas in matters pertaining to dignity as proceeding from a thing's form, they follow the father, for instance in honors, franchise, inheritance and so forth. The canons are in agreement with this (cap. Liberi, 32, qu. iv, in gloss.: cap. Inducens, De natis ex libero ventre) as also the law of Moses (Exodus 21). ... It is because the son derives honor from his father rather than from his mother that in the genealogies of Scripture, and according to common custom, children are named after their father rather than from their mother. But in matters relating to slavery they follow the mother by preference."
https://web.archive.org/web/20170507201232/http://newadvent.org/summa/5052.htm
Consider ancient Rome, divided into two classes: the patricians, or those who could identify their father ("patri" from whence comes "patrician"), and the plebeians, or those who could not. The plebeians were a racially mixed lot, and at one time probably ran in tribes, were polygamous and profligate, with their blood and lineage coming from a mother considered queen of the tribe.
Also, there's the matter of the Y chromosome:
"The Y chromosome is passed only from father to son."
Exxess ( talk) 20:46, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
re: per my last edit on blood lines.
Maybe we can add Racism to the list, from German "Rasse", originally from Italian "Razza", via French "Race". Also Old High German "Reiza": "line".
The Polish equivalent is "Rasa" and caries the connotation of stock/breed. ie: "Rasa psów", which is "Breed of Dog" (essentially Blood 'line', like 'reiza'); it's been strangely transposed. 76.69.76.140 ( talk) 14:16, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
"The nobleman's sense of distinction led to practices that in later periods would be characterized as racism." - This quotation has been removed! Obvious tampering. In fact, nearly all instances of the word 'race' have been removed. I believe this is what you call the 'manufacture of credibility'; where none exists. This article is now rubbish. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Szlachta&diff=867093972&oldid=867078949 (the edit in which it was removed). Obvious bias, as the account is Polish and made dozens of edits. Changed to: "some noblemen's sense of superiority was said to lead to practices that sometimes approximated to bullying and slavery". Bullying? LMAO... where is the correct citation for this garbage? The old one is still there but the quote was arbitrarily altered. According to this: https://books.google.ca/books?id=Pe9oAAAAMAAJ&dq=isbn%3A0231053517&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=racist the word racism/racist exist on page 233, but it's cropped out. The quote seems to have been altered to the one that is visible in this small excerpt. It was Googled, not original source. 174.95.203.52 ( talk) 13:33, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
NOTE: Editor is referring to the Khmelnytsky Uprising (1648-57), a mass movement against the Citizens of Poland (the Polish nobility aka szlachta) known as the Cossack-Polish War - Exxess ( talk) 16:52, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Although born as Litwin and as Litwin I will die, but Polish idiom we must use in our homeland.
— Janusz Radziwiłł, in letter to his brother Krzysztof Radziwiłł
Reference uses specific words "anti-Polish" in article by eminent Ukrainian historian Orest Subtelny, University of Toronto, about Khmelnytsky Uprising aka Cossack-Polish War, "...and anti-noble and anti-Polish revolts also broke out there. ... Zhdanovych tried to hold the anti-Polish front but did not succeed." User Korwinski deletes reference because has peculiar idea Khmelnytsky Uprising was not "anti-Polish." Encyclopædia Britannica states the same thing, but not using specific words "anti-Polish," but rather, "...Cossack resentment of Polish authority..." Is it wrong to state "anti-Polish Khmelnytsky Uprising"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exxess ( talk • contribs) 20:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Just to clarify: User Exxess in the past couple of days managed to violate WP:Consensus, start WP:Edit war and I'm pretty sure hate speech is not something wikipedia users should be using here in discussion. Just shows level of... well, you got what I mean. Also user ignored all of my sources and still added his questionable ones to the article despite them contradicting ones I've added. I should remind that this article is about the szlachta of Kingdom of Poland, and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia, which after the Union of Lublin in 1569 became a single state. It is not article about szlachta of just Kingdom of Poland, or just szlachta of Polish descent or szlachta of Bohemia, Hungary etc. Szlachta of Zaporozhian Host should be stated in the article as it was part of szlachta of PLC until they decided to join Uprising or later (up until Second half of XVIII century) move to Zaporozhian Host for different reasons creating Malorossian szlachta. Ivan Sulyma, Mykhailo Krychevsky, Krzysztof Kosiński, Prince Dmytro Vyshnevetsky, Przecław Lanckoroński, Ivan Mazepa, Prince pl:Bohdan Różyński, pl:Jakub Ostrzanin, pl:Jan Oryszowski, Petro Konashevych-Sahaidachny, Pylyp Orlyk, Mykhailo Khanenko, Prince Michał Wiśniowiecki (1529–1584) or Samuel Zborowski were all szlachta of PLC, despite their actions against the crown or king himself.
Also if it makes any difference I'm of Polish szlachta descent myself (hence the username). Clarifications and edits I've added to the article where to expand it and show that Szlachta (especially in XV-XVII century) were ethnically more diverse. As during time of the Commonwealth "Polish" was used as a name for political nation of the Commonwealth and it should not be mistaken with modern Polish nation. But still my actions and edit showed no offence or disregard to Polish people (as I'm myself 1/4 Polish, that would be just stupid), and also claims about my Ukrainian nationalism in here I can only add to the list of other nonsense written by user Exxess in my regard. But in case it is unknown to user Exxess, Galicia had largest part of minor nobility of the former PWC. And mostly they were not polonized Ukrainian-speaking Greek Catholics. And obviously many of them joined nationalists. pl:Kateryna Zaryćka, Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych etc had full or partial szlachta ancestry. See Western Ukrainian clergy and Ukrainian nobility of Galicia. But since it is not subject of this our discussion, I see not point stating "nationalism" nonsense here.
American and especially French revolutions created meaning of modern nation states, and nations in modern sense. Before, citizens were subjects of the crown, and were socially divided. While sharing (or not) religion, language etc, but the most important - state they were living in, they did not identify as a whole. In Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, lower classes even by speaking Polish and belonging to Roman Catholic church did not belong and did not identify as part of Polish political nation:
The older peasants called themselves Masurians, and their speech Masurian ... I myself did not know that I was a Pole till I began to read books and papers, and I fancy that other villagers came to be aware of the national attachment in much the same way. [2]
Members of Polish szlachta disregarded peasants up until XIX century. But even then such opinion was still common between. In the mid-19th century one of the three greatest Polish poets Zygmunt Krasiński wrote to his English friend Henry Reeve:
"Believe me and rest assured that apart from aristocracy there’s nothing in Poland: no talent, no bright minds, nor sense of sacrifice. Our third state [bourgeoisie] is nonsense; our peasants are machines. Only we [nobles] are Poland. [3]
In my opinion the best and quickest way to resolve this would be to find out what was identity of szlachta of PLC. Now if we look into this questions and publication regarding that, we will see that sources state that szlachta was "narod polityczny (political nation)" [4] [5]. What does that mean?:
Proces kształtowania się nowoczesnej wspólnoty narodowej w polskiej re eksji rozpoczął się pod koniec XVIII stulecia. W powszechnym wyobrażeniu był to naród polityczny składający się z różnych grup etnicznych o odmiennych kulturach, językach, religii. [6]
Now the source above is regarding Polish identity in end of XVIII-XIX century, when modern Polish identity was being formed. While modern Ukrainian, Belorussian and Lithuanian identity just started to form. The best option resolve this case is to actually use source that describes national consciousness for that time XVI-XVII Century. Polish source preferable I assume. So Stanislaw Kot and his “ Swiadomosc narodowa w Polsce wieku XV-XVII”:
I tak znienacka gentes poszcegolne zlewaly sie w jedna natio, ktora nie oznaczala jak dawniej obywateli jednego panstwa, choc roznego pochodzenia I jezyka, ale obywateli jednego zjednoczonych w jednej wspolnocie jezyka, instytucyj, a co najwazniejsza – jednej polskiej swiadomosci narodowej […] Oto gdy wiezia narodowa przestal byc jezyk I wspolne pochodzenie, a staly sie nia swobody polityczne I udzial w zyciu publicznym, pojecie narodu ogranicz sie do tej tylko warstwy, ktora byla uprawniona do zycia politycznego.
Tak wiec narodem polskim od XVI w., zwlaszcza od jego polowy stala sie warstwa wyzsa w ziemiach korony, bez wzgledu no pochodzenie etniczne, jezyk, religie, zreszta zwolna ku jednosci jezyka I religii sie sklaniajaca zlaczona przywilejami I korzysciami stanowymi, wspolna ich obrona wytwarzajaca wspolna tradycje w wyraznym przeciwienstwie do chlopstwa rodzimego, ktore odsuwano od poczucia I korzysci wspolnosci narodowej, torujac przy tym droge do zacierania u chlopow swiadomosci narodowej, co ulatwialo na ziemiach wschodnich zlewanie sie chlopa polskiego z ruskim.
As we can see by Khmelnytsky Uprising “Polish nation” meant meant szlachta of different ethnic background and identity. Ruthenian and Lithuanian szlachta despite polonization continue to recognise their Lithuanian and Ruthenian identity. Hetman Janusz Radziwill (future rival of Khmelnytsky) wrote to his brother:
Although born as Litwin and as Litwin I will die, but Polish idiom we must use in our homeland.
And as Janusz Tazbir said regarding Radziwill's statements:
Choć obaj magnaci nie potrafili już mówić w swym ojczystym języku, to jednak posiadali tak silne poczucie na- rodowej odrębności, że niepodobna ich uznać za Polaków. Ostateczną instancję stanowi subiektywne kryterium przynależności do danej wspólnoty etnicznej: skoro uważali się za Litwinów, to i nimi naprawdę byli. Używana przez szlacheckich przedstawicieli innych grup etnicznych polszczyzna była po prostu językiem państwowym (Staatssprache), a posługiwanie się nią wiązało się poniekąd z istnieniem „Polaka politycznego”, członka warstwy rządzącej, kogoś, kto korzysta ze wszystkich jej przywilejów. [7]
While Ruthnian nobility more and more started to identify as gente Rutheni, natione Poloni. By natio Poloni meaning belonging to Polish political nation aka szlachta [8].
Considering that so many of the szlachta fought on Cossack side, it would be simply misleading to use "Anti-Polish" statement here without clarification. Mykhailo Krychevsky, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Ivan Vyhovsky, Zhdanovych etc were all szlachta. Pinsk szlachta, Liubech szlachta etc joined rebellion, that did not mean that they were not szlachta anymore or any less of political nation of the state (see Confederation (Poland)). Yes, sources provided by user Exxess specify "Anti-Polish", but they do not specify reason for using such terminology. And also "Ukraine" at the time meant area of Kiev and Braclaw voivodeship, and "Belorussia" were called lands in between Minsk and Moscow. Obviously we cannot use such terminology, otherwise we go straight for Caesar being great Italian leader or Višeslav the great King of Yugoslavia. It is not vital to this article. It does not change any of the facts, so I see no point in keeping it.
Now lets go over user Excess statements:
Khmelnytsky Uprising was thoroughly ANTI-POLISH through and through, ideologically and ethnically
As we can see above "Anti-polish" was more like "Anti-rich, catholic (both Roman and Uniate) szlachta", and even that is not correct definition. For example Sylvester Kosiv (Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev, Galicia and All-Ruthenia):
In 1647 he became the metropolitan of Kiev. It happened just before the Khmelnytsky Uprising, a time of uncertainty in Ukraine and in the Ruthenian church. Kosov himself was strongly opposed to union with Tsardom of Russia, and also against unreserved alliance with Poland. He condemned the 1654 treaty of Pereyaslav between the Cossack Hetmanate and the Tsardom of Muscovy. Despite being critical of some of the policies of the Cossacks, he attempted to rectify the situation and along with the Patriarch of Jerusalem Paiseus gave Bohdan Khmelnytsky a hero's welcome when he entered Kiev in 2 January 1649 (Old Style 23 December 1648). Kosiv strived for an independent Ruthenian Orthodox Church that would be only under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople, and he fought against the subjugation of the Kiev metropolate to Moscow.
Or Prince Zakhariy Swiatopolk-Chetvertynsky of Orthodox faith (also father of another Orthodox metroplite Gedeon (Svyatopolk-Chetvertynsky)) who signed appointment of Sylvester Kosiv as a metropolitan, died during Battle of Zborow fighting Cossacks. Or Ivan Vyhovsky who:
was captured by Khmelnystsky's rebel Cossack forces at the Battle of Zhovti Vody in May 1648, he was freed on account of his education and experience and rose to become secretary-general or chancellor (heneralny pysar) of the Cossacks and one of Khmelnytsky's closest advisors.
Ideologically? As I stated and provided sources above, sarmatism was vital part of Cossack culture, but obviously adopted in their own version. Here are just a few sarmatian portraits of Cossack szlachta to compare with szlachta portraits on PLC counterparts: Mykhaylo Myklashevsky of Ostoja Coat of Arms, Hryhoriy Hamaleya of Deja Coat of Arms, Semen Sulyma of Sulyma Coat of Arms etc. Literature works I've already specify above, but here's another by Stefan Yavorsky of Sas coat of arms, about Sulima coat of arms of uk:Іван Обидовський (nephew of hetman Ivan Mazeppa). Very "not-Sarmatic". Both Mazeppa (whose father in 1662 position of Chernihiv Podczaszy from John II Casimir, and he himself served in his court) and Obidovsky, whose mother was Mazeppa's sister were as much szlachta as in any other living at that time in that area.
Peasants born on territory once belonging to OLD POLAND were ANTI-POLISH
As I've provided sources above. Polish (as in Catholic and speaking Polish) peasants did not identify as Polish. Actually source you provided there is regarding Galicia in XIX century. And Galician slaughter executed by Polish peasants on Polish counterparts of Galicia against Polish szlachta is a good example of why "Anti-Polish" is very misleading here.
szlachta, who originated in OLD POLAND, with an admixture of knights arriving from what is now Germany and Bohemia - not the Ukraine, not Russia, not Lithuania, not Ruthenium
Again. This article is about szlachta of PLC. Not of Polish szlachta before Union of Horodło. And even then, after capturing Galicia back in mid XIV century, Ruthenian nobility quickly received nobility. Piotr of Klecia and his son Dymitr of Goraj are a good example of that.
Ukrainians/Cossacks to be szlachta (Citizens of Poland) need to have a Polish coat of arms, evidence of formal ennoblement by a Polish King or Sejm, which needs documentation with reputable sources.
There was no such thing as "Citizens of Poland" at the time. Subjects of the King or member of "Polish nation" (which as I've provided sources above meant szlachta, not Polish nation in modern sense. After liquidation of Zaporozhian host, Malorossian szlachta had to prove their nobility to Russian Government. Just like szlachta later had to. Those who could prove it, received it. Otherwise declassification to peasants or townsman.
The government was trying to incorporate the upper echelons of the Cossack officer stratum without opening the door too wide and allowing the ennoblement of tens of thousands of well-to-do Cossacks whose ancestors had held elective office in the army and the civil administration of the Hetmanate. The authorities were desperate to avoid a situation in which the number of recognized nobles in the former Hetmanate would be many times greater than in the Russian gubernias of the empire. They vacillated, recognizing the noble status of some officeholders but not others, granting it one day and taking it away the next. Policy remained in flux until the late eighteenth century, when Emperor Paul I decided to compile a new register of the imperial nobility. According to the imperial decree of 1797, families claiming noble status had to submit documents proving their noble origins, which turned out to be a problem for many of them. [9]
Korwinski's dubious-dual-Citizenship assertions - the Szlachta article makes it apparent that szlachta (noble) equals Citizen of Poland.
Please specify where I said either of those things? Citizenship did not exist yet. Residents and subjects of the Crown? Yes. Citizens - no.
members of the Cossack Hetmanate were EVER Citizens of Poland, aka szlachta, or were ever ennobled by any King or Sejm of Poland
Please specify a source that states that most of residents of Zaporozhian Host were not former residents of PLC? Regarding ennoblement please see quote above.
...there are claims...
No claims. It is a historical fact. Sources 1, 2, 3, 4. Any number. You name it.
...composed of a majority of Cossacks...'
Majority of the population of any state at that time were peasants. Come on.
...without a Polish coat of arms...
Modzalevsky and his work “ Malorossian armorial” would strongly disagree with you. Just in case another source with more information and images 1. Or you can use Herbarz Polski od Średniowiecza do XX wieku (Polish Armorials from the Middle Ages to the 20th century) by Tadeusz Gajl. pl:Aleksandrowicz małorosyjski for example should ring a bell.
they were never formally ennobled by any King or Sejm of Poland, and so "self-identified" as szlachta...
While receiving dvorianstvo of Russian Empire, they actually had to provide documents and prove their nobility and szlachta (just like szlachta from Right-bank). About 100000 (out of ~ 1000000 whole male population of Zaporozhian Host) claimed to have szlachta ancetry. Only about 20000 were able to prove it. The rest had to receive dvorianstvo via government service, officer ranks etc. The rest (just like szlachta from Right-bank) mainly declassified to peasants with personal freedom, right for private owning of their land, right to belong to Malorossian kozak sosloviye, and right to prove their right for dvorianstvo in the future. Korwinski ( talk) 17:45, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Ukrainian populace, particularly the Cossacks and peasants, against the Polish Commonwealth. Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky assumed leadership of the Ukrainian forces. The war can be divided into six phases. January–November 1648. In this period a series of brilliant Cossack victories aroused the whole Ukrainian people