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Poland and History of Poland don't link here yet. Wetman 17:34, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Whoever put the sentence: The Free City of Danzig voted democratically to become a part of Germany again. Democratically??
Majority of citizens had choosen Nazi government in the democratic elections, yes that right. However, election of the enemies of democracy marked the end of democracy. Cautious 11:58, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
97% of the people in Danzig before ww2 were Germans
97% of the people in Danzig before ww2 were Germans. thats the reason why poland failed in attempt to annex it after ww1. there was no reason for the people of Danzig to vote for poland. The city was since 13th
century inhabitad by germans. the culture was hanseatic northgerman.
the architecture of the most important buildings is the the so called northgerman Backsteingothik. there was never a signifikant polnish mayority existing in this city. that Danzig should be part of poland was the idea of some polnish extrem rightwing nationalists as part of the idea to create a greater poland. Completly ignoring the right of national selfdetermination of the people of Danzig.
What, no map? :o) — OwenBlacker 21:04, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)
"... Poles living on the German re-annexed territories were deprived of their human rights, and faced serious persecutions. By contrast, after World War II Germans living east of the Oder-Neisse Line were expelled to Germany..." The use of the word "contrast" here suggests that the Poles discussed here would have preferred to have been expelled, since the Germans were expelled and that is contrasted favourably with the non-expulsion (but persecution) of the Poles. The article thus claims, in effect, that the Poles were persecuted, in "contrast" to the Germans, who were presumably not persecuted because they were expelled instead. Either expulsions are bad things or good things, I would think. The fact that the article suggests expulsions of one ethnicity is bad (earlier in the article) but of another ethnicity is good makes no sense to me. Bdell555 21:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Since unlike the Soviets, Germans annexed only parts of Poland, and treated other as occupied territory, why not move this article to Polish areas annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The map misinforms that only the 1939-1941 GG was occupied. What about Eastern Poland? Xx236 ( talk) 10:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Expanded a bit, added more info on specific measures against Poles in that region, and more numbers. Table of volksdeutsche is in the proper article, I see no need for it here in such form, also the usage of word indigenous is very unfortunate as it was largely Nazi propaganda.-- Molobo ( talk) 17:30, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The text inserted by Skapperod claims that Germans from the " Altreich" (is that btw a Nazi era terminology?) did not form the colonists. However the term Altreich is also in regards to Sudety region from which 110.000 German colonists came as the text indicates. So it seems that people from "Altreich" did come. -- Molobo ( talk) 14:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The data for 1939 presented by Skapperod as the number of Germans and Poles in 1939 was actually a Nazi claim made in Nazi organised census, which the author herself points out in the book and warns that is is problematic. I would advise Skapperod once more to point out when Nazi propaganda is involved, and warn readers that the "data" is product of this regime(we had discussion about this in Prussian Settlement Comission before). The statements of Nazi Germany should only be presented as such, and in proper context. I added more scholary data on number of German minority as well as number of Jews in the region. I also corrected some terms, as both Poles and Jews were subject to both extermination and expulsion. I also deleted non-relevenat issues about "peace conference" about Recovered Territories that is of no connection to those territories. I added that former Nazi colonists and adminstration officials in that region are regarded as expelled by Germany. I also corrected the pursuit of Nazi collaborators. If some people find that information needing references I will be happy to provide them .-- Molobo ( talk) 14:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The Heinemann numbers are not directly attributed to the 1939 census. In a footnote regarding East Upper Silesia, she refers to another book, "Musterstadt", for problems with the 1939 numbers without going into detail. This is not enough to back up changes attributing all the numbers Heinemann gives to the 1939 census (though it is possible she is citing the census, but we don't know for sure), that's why I attributed them to Heinemann directly. Also, the "Nazis" did not "claim" someone to be German. If the 1939 census is the source, the persons declared themselves to be German, and the Nazis were the ones not satisfied with this mere declaration, but "racially evaluated" everyone and decided who was "really" German only after this process. Skäpperöd ( talk) 16:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC) The Heinemann numbers are not directly attributed to the 1939 census. In a footnote regarding East Upper Silesia, she refers to another book, "Musterstadt", for problems with the 1939 numbers without going into detail. This is not what Heinmann writes actually. She clearly mentions that the results are from December census performed in bezirke and gau's during 1939. Now what other then Nazi authority was able to conduct census in that regions. And btw-I am afraid you are confusing the Gaus with Polish annexed territories. Only Warthegau was made solely out of them-others acquired Polish territories but consisted of already existing German areas. In fact it would be good idea to split this information into the Gau article itself, while leaving information about Polish annexed territories. Anyway If you insist on disputing what Heinmann writes I can simply quote her and let others decide if what you are saying is correct. However her data isn't essential here as it concerns only partially the topic. -- Molobo ( talk) 23:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC) Oberschlessien hatte 4.2 Millionen Einwohner in annektier Ostoberschlesien(Regierungsbezirk Kattowitz) lebten etwa 2.43 Millionen Menschen, davon ungefahr 1,08 Millionen Deutsche, 930 ,000 Polen und fast 90.000 Juden. Zu den problemen der daten die auf einwohnererfassun vom Dezember 1939 beruhen It is clear from the above text that she quotes data from Nazi administrative units. In addition the data is only in regards to part of the annexed territory and the whole annexed area of Polish Silesia by Germany. Thus-we have only partial information, second what others then Nazis conducted population polls in December 1939 ? Third-the information is not about Polish annexed territories but wider region. -- Molobo ( talk) 23:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
As the areas have been merged with German ones the Nazi census was further manipulated. But they are estimates of number of Germans in Polish areas and I will source them as soon as possible. Additionall estimates for Germans settled are in the collaborative scholary work WYSIEDLENIA, WYPĘDZENIA I UCIECZKI 1939-1959. ATLAS ZIEM POLSKI [2] And here [3] -- Molobo ( talk) 14:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
We don't need to attribute most statements in text, not unless it is important to clarify that this opinion is held by a particular person. See also Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Is_detailed_attribution_good_or_bad_practice.3F. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be any major scholary dispute. There are differences in numbers but not in great scale. -- Molobo ( talk) 23:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
1.Changed structure to logical order-first annexed units, then what were they annexed into. 2.Gave information on various measures specific to annexed territories. 3.Gave information regarding Nazi estimates 4.Numerous other minor information expansions. 5.Moved information from invasion of Poland to proper place. -- Molobo ( talk) 23:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Your "logic" fucked messed up the format. Also, this article is about the time during the annexation, not before. Also you again messed up the Heinemann numbers stating they are the Nazi census. This is your generalization and interpretion of a footnote in Heinemann's book that does not say so. The table you inserted also needs some more work.
Skäpperöd (
talk) 06:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
This information is obviously wrong, Danzig-WP was also partially made up of pre-war German territory.
Skäpperöd ( talk) 08:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I see a lot of OR in your text-nowhere had I read that reversing Versailles was the reason for annexation of Łódż or territories that never formed German Empire. Could you give us source on that ? That the military districts were created is true but nor relevant to the subject in great deal-I moved the information ot Invasion of Poland. As to dispute by Nazis and Wehrmach who gets which territory-It makes me happy me that you are interested in information I provided, I can add more if you wish but this shouldn't distort the article. As to the precise number it is more elegant to use the exact numbers rather the rough estimates here-Is there any reason to remove this ? Please also check references-they clearly show what documents are used, also the documents are widely used in scholary works on the subject so they are notable.-- Molobo ( talk) 08:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
1."She does not say so, so don't attribute it to her." Heinmann: Oberschlessien hatte 4.2 Millionen Einwohner in annektier Ostoberschlesien(Regierungsbezirk Kattowitz) lebten etwa 2.43 Millionen Menschen, davon ungefahr 1,08 Millionen Deutsche, 930 ,000 Polen und fast 90.000 Juden. Zu den problemen der daten die auf einwohnererfassun vom Dezember 1939 beruhen Do you want me to consult others if the data here is A-relavant since it does not concern Polish territories but Reischsgaue B-If Heinmann uses census data from Nazi administrative units C-If Heinmann mentions problems with the data D-If there was any other census then Nazi census in Nazi Administrative units ?-- Molobo ( talk) 11:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
2. Concentrate on the topic not on the person you are talking to. "Everybody knows" is not an argument and constitutes Original Research.-- Molobo ( talk) 11:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
3.Sure, I will link it to proper section in Invasion of Poland.-- Molobo ( talk) 11:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
4.The article is still in process of expansion. However the dispute is not really that relavant, I am surprised on your insistance that it is. What sources back you up that it is important ?-- Molobo ( talk) 11:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I have copyedited the first part of the article. I think both sides make good points, but please, try to keep the above discussion structured - in the moddle I got lost trying to figure out who's replying to whom. My thoughts:
I am not addressing other issues because either I have no strong opinion, or the above discussion doesn't allow me to clearly understand the points being made. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I think we should move Heinmann data to proper place in Reichsgau article. People are now confusing the data of those Reichsgau with Polish areas. Furthermore the data is complicated by the unreliability of the Nazi census she presented.What do you think -- Molobo ( talk) 17:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I cut this paragraph from the article as it is not transporting any information. It reads
This paragraph needs to be rewritten or left out:
It would be very helpful if we could expand the article on census in Germany, particularly with section on Nazi census of 1939 and its reliability. I think that one of Molobo's points here is that Nazi data is unreliable and this should be pointed out in the text. It seems like a good point to me. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The 1939 census data is not even cited here. The only reason the paragraph is in here is the insistence of Molobo that Heinemann cited the figures, which is still unproven (see numerous posts above). Actually, it is now evident that the Heinemann figures for Warthegau and Danzig-WP are the same as in the table - this table however gives the November estimate and not the December census. I shortened the Heinemann paragraph accordingly. The only possibility that December census data is in the article is the Heinemann figure for East Upper Silesia. Heinemann says in the footnote that these numbers are based on a population count of December 1939, which still does not mean that she cited them unprocessed, though it is possible.
Much cited Piotr Eberhardt in his 2003 book says their was a debate whether the 1939 census is reliable or not, and summarizes that some (German) authors said so and some (Polish) authors said it is not. So I would not introduce a proven unreliability but rather a note that there was (is?) a debate. But if we do not have the census data in here, it does not make much sense to include such a note at all.
The 1939 census sure has the problem most pre- and post-war censuses have, that is the census asks for either a German or a Polish ethnicity. In the broader area of the historical Polish-German frontier, for many people it was not easy to sort themselves into one of these categories, and such a "non-fixed ethnicity" could switch from Polish to German and back depending on the political circumstances. Even after the war there was the "verification" and "rehabilitation" of "autochtones", a million of which were confirmed as Poles. So this million is the bottom margin of uncertainty we have, given the high number of people who died during the war or fled and did not return. Additionally we have an uncertain number of people who considered themselves to be Germans/Poles, and then the Nazis came, "evaluated" them and said "No you are not a German but an untermensch" or "No you are not a Pole but a Polonized German". A German who could not with documents prove the aryaness of at least three generations of his ancestors was not regarded German by the Nazis, wheras a Pole who fit in their pseudo-scientific racial parameters was in many cases.
Given these rationales, it would be easiest to leave the 1939 census out as long as it is not even cited here. Or, to insert a section about the inconsistency between ethnic categorization and the self-perception of the so categorized, which may include a paragraph about the census. I fear however we would unreasonably boost the scope of the article with such a section. Skäpperöd ( talk) 10:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
As the data isn't clear and author indicates the Nazi census has its problems I removed this information per undue weight.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Skäpperöd for making editions piece by piece, it so much easier to follow and understand. Thanks again.-- Jacurek ( talk) 22:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The number in the table (> 7 million) seems way too high. Heinemann says all Upper Silesia had 4.2 million inhabitants (Rasse, Siedlung ... p.229), Autonomous Silesian Voivodeship (annexed part minus two counties, ~half of Upper Silesia) article says 1.5 million in 1925. Maybe the numbers in the table are for all of Silesia? This needs to be checked. Skäpperöd ( talk) 10:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I've created a new article, since its something that seems to apply not only to annexed territories but also to General Government. I also noticed there there seem to be lack of categories for historical German administrative territories? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I updated the article, added new information in regards to Nazi repressions and measures, I added tables, new sections and data as to support for Nazi rule, number of incidents with friendly Germans reported, new demographic tables. Merged repressions as it was illogical to have the article split into two seperate repressive sections. Somebody removed from the lead that Jews and Poles were target of genocide-I restored it. I will continue to update the article as time allows.-- Molobo ( talk) 13:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
...should not be used here. See this thread at WP:RS/N. Skäpperöd ( talk) 12:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
When I read the above citation my observation is that the material posted is communist propaganda, a clever way to whitewash German crimes in Poland, imply that it is communist propaganda. Think!!-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
In the respective WP:RS/N thread (linked above), most participants said these sources must be used with care and that these sources should be used to illustrate the Communist era historiographic perception. That is clearly not what is done here, and the removal of in-text attribution to indicate that the sources are from the Communist era wasn't suitable either. I again tagged the respective sections as relying heavily or entirely on Communist era sources - which is an undisputed fact - until this is fixed. Skäpperöd ( talk) 12:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
As the scholar and historian Andrzej Friszke noted in IPN Bulletin fom 4th May of 2004 Czesław Madajczyk remains the best author and scholar in regards to studies on Nazi Germany's policies in Poland. Also Friszke did write that most of Polish research on Nazi Germany is based on publications before 1989 as post-1989 researches focused on Soviet era and territories [4]-as such there is no doubt that this sources are considered reliable. In fact even modern historians from Germany use Madajczyk's works and praise him which can be sourced.
For the abuse of tags see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism
Abuse of tags Bad-faith placing of non-content tags or other tags on pages that do not meet such criteria. This includes removal of extremely-long-standing policy and related tags without forming consensus on such a change first.
In regards to the template itself it doesn't have its place here. Much as I dislike Peoples Republic of Poland, its really is absurd to name it a totalitarian communist regime in 1987. It certainly was not totalitarian nor communist. The template is more fitting to sources from Stalinist period in SU or North Korean sources.-- Molobo ( talk) 13:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
The discussion seems to have moved to Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2009_May_17#Template:Communist_era_sources. Skäpperöd ( talk) 19:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Please keep in mind this is not the article about Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles. This is an article whose section should describe Nazi treatment of Poles on the annexed territories and make it clear how it differed from treatment of Poles in the General Government. Only if the treatment differed it should be described there, there is no need to repeat the content of the Nazi crimes... article here. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Certainly Piotrus-the information here comes directly from specific measures used in annexed territories mentioned. GG was to be used as reservation for Poles untill their final extermination within 10-15 years as designed by Germany. The differences are mentioned by Madajczak-for instance Catholic Church was going to be exploited rather then destroyed in order to better control Polish population. Age of slave labour was highter in GG then in annexed territories and so on. But the measures described here are specific to Annexed territories-the German terror in GG was based on other means and laws. The best comparision is that while General Gouvernment was a concentration camp with slave labour, Annexed territories were mainly a death camp for Polish and Jewish population that was to be removed as fast as possible. Of course some general information is needed-such as classification of Poles and Jews as creatures inferior to dogs by German authorities.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:09, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Large parts of the article are based on two sources published in Communist Poland. How should these sources be used and attributed? How should the results of this RS/N discussion and this TfD discussion be adapted? Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
After the above-linked RS/N discussion, I have in-text attributed these sources like this:
This was removed. I have then tagged the sections in question with "Template:Communist era sources". The template was removed and the above linked TfD discussion was initiated.
I request a comment what (alternative) approach should be used here. Pre-1989 Poland was ruled by a totalitarian Communist regime with an anti-German agenda. That makes every book published in Poland during this era likely to be biased regarding contemporary history. If information derived from such sources is nevertheless used in wikipedia, the reader needs to be aware of it. Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Judging by the title of second publication Dokumenty niemieckie (German documents), it is some collection of documents from the 1939-1945 period. This is not a communist-era source, although selection of documents may be biased. D.Albionov ( talk) 01:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
To finish this, here's a proof that Czesław Madajczyk (1970) is cited in hundreds of works published after 1989: [5], including over a hundred English language works: [6]. Czesław Łuczak (1987) is slightly less known, but is still cited in close to a hundred works: [7], [8]. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Molobo just picked this book up in the library yesterday, you may find it of interest. Author is Phillip T. Rutherford Title is Prelude to the Final Solution: The Nazi Program for Deporting Ethnic Poles, 1939-1941Hardcover, ISBN 0700615067 Publisher: Univ Pr of Kansas, 2007 The fate of Polish Jews under the German occupation has been well documented, but not as much is known about the wartime ordeal of non-Jewish Poles. Phillip Rutherford investigates Nazi policies of "ethnic cleansing" to reveal the striking anti-Polish nature of the crusade to Germanize newly occupied territory and to show... This will suffice as a reliable source, but the article would need some redo work. Regards--- Woogie10w ( talk) 21:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Since one user continues to object Madajczyk as reliable source here is what The Institute of History of Present Time (research unit of the CNRS, the French National Center for Scientific Research) has to say about Madajczyk:
"It is with great sadness that we have learned of the death of Professor Czeslaw Madaiczyk, Chairman of the Polish Committee for the History of World War I and II, who died on 15 February 2008. Czeslaw Madajczyk was an eminent historian, whose scholarly work on 20th Century Polish and European History has been widely acknowledged and respected. His important studies on Nazi occupation of Europe after 1938, and in particular on Hitler’s rule of Poland have greatly enhanced our understanding of the often complicated and obscured processes of German occupation policies as well as of the differing experiences of ordinary peoples under Fascist dictatorship and oppression. These and some of his other books, notably on cultural life in Nazi occupied Europe, on the “Generalplan Ost” and other German war-time plans for Eastern Europe as well as on the Soviet massacre at Katyn, have become milestones of the historiography of the Second World War. He was a co-founder and for more than two decades also the first editor of the distinguished Polish quarterly “Dzieje Najnowsze” (Recent History). Between 1971 and 1983 Professor Madajczyk led the Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Besides he was Vice-President of the Polish Committee of Historical Sciences (1971-1985) and later became one of the Vice-Presidents of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War (1980–1995). In these capacities Czeslaw Madajczyk was an ardent supporter of international scholarly cooperation and exchanges, even at times when relations between historians on both sides of the iron curtain were still threatened or questioned by political conditions and developments. The death of Czeslaw Madajczyk is a grave loss for the international community of World War II historians. Gerhard Hirschfeld President of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War" [9]
I hope this settles once and for all if Madajczyk is acceptable and reliable source by modern standards. -- Molobo ( talk) 18:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
During the B-class review for WikiProject Poland, User:Piotrus determined that the article seems to him to meet the criteria for the B-class. Good job! — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 00:26, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
There was a mistake in the text, Madajczyk noted that there were only ) noted that 529 cases of friendly contacts between Germans and Poles reported by Gestapo, not intimate contacts. I corrected the mistake.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:58, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
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The word district should be replaced, the GG was divided into Distrikts, so we have a district od districts. Xx236 ( talk) 07:27, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
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Hello, I think there's a typo: Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany#Expulsion and genocide of Poles and Jews Heinemann and Łuczak ak as cited by Eberhardt detail the expulsions as follows ("ak"). Best regards, - Bédévore [knock knock] 22:08, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
…move the article to other titles without consensus. Especially highly POV irredentist ones. Volunteer Marek 23:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
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WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations (9 May 2021): The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. |
Poland and History of Poland don't link here yet. Wetman 17:34, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Whoever put the sentence: The Free City of Danzig voted democratically to become a part of Germany again. Democratically??
Majority of citizens had choosen Nazi government in the democratic elections, yes that right. However, election of the enemies of democracy marked the end of democracy. Cautious 11:58, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
97% of the people in Danzig before ww2 were Germans
97% of the people in Danzig before ww2 were Germans. thats the reason why poland failed in attempt to annex it after ww1. there was no reason for the people of Danzig to vote for poland. The city was since 13th
century inhabitad by germans. the culture was hanseatic northgerman.
the architecture of the most important buildings is the the so called northgerman Backsteingothik. there was never a signifikant polnish mayority existing in this city. that Danzig should be part of poland was the idea of some polnish extrem rightwing nationalists as part of the idea to create a greater poland. Completly ignoring the right of national selfdetermination of the people of Danzig.
What, no map? :o) — OwenBlacker 21:04, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)
"... Poles living on the German re-annexed territories were deprived of their human rights, and faced serious persecutions. By contrast, after World War II Germans living east of the Oder-Neisse Line were expelled to Germany..." The use of the word "contrast" here suggests that the Poles discussed here would have preferred to have been expelled, since the Germans were expelled and that is contrasted favourably with the non-expulsion (but persecution) of the Poles. The article thus claims, in effect, that the Poles were persecuted, in "contrast" to the Germans, who were presumably not persecuted because they were expelled instead. Either expulsions are bad things or good things, I would think. The fact that the article suggests expulsions of one ethnicity is bad (earlier in the article) but of another ethnicity is good makes no sense to me. Bdell555 21:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Since unlike the Soviets, Germans annexed only parts of Poland, and treated other as occupied territory, why not move this article to Polish areas annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The map misinforms that only the 1939-1941 GG was occupied. What about Eastern Poland? Xx236 ( talk) 10:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Expanded a bit, added more info on specific measures against Poles in that region, and more numbers. Table of volksdeutsche is in the proper article, I see no need for it here in such form, also the usage of word indigenous is very unfortunate as it was largely Nazi propaganda.-- Molobo ( talk) 17:30, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The text inserted by Skapperod claims that Germans from the " Altreich" (is that btw a Nazi era terminology?) did not form the colonists. However the term Altreich is also in regards to Sudety region from which 110.000 German colonists came as the text indicates. So it seems that people from "Altreich" did come. -- Molobo ( talk) 14:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The data for 1939 presented by Skapperod as the number of Germans and Poles in 1939 was actually a Nazi claim made in Nazi organised census, which the author herself points out in the book and warns that is is problematic. I would advise Skapperod once more to point out when Nazi propaganda is involved, and warn readers that the "data" is product of this regime(we had discussion about this in Prussian Settlement Comission before). The statements of Nazi Germany should only be presented as such, and in proper context. I added more scholary data on number of German minority as well as number of Jews in the region. I also corrected some terms, as both Poles and Jews were subject to both extermination and expulsion. I also deleted non-relevenat issues about "peace conference" about Recovered Territories that is of no connection to those territories. I added that former Nazi colonists and adminstration officials in that region are regarded as expelled by Germany. I also corrected the pursuit of Nazi collaborators. If some people find that information needing references I will be happy to provide them .-- Molobo ( talk) 14:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The Heinemann numbers are not directly attributed to the 1939 census. In a footnote regarding East Upper Silesia, she refers to another book, "Musterstadt", for problems with the 1939 numbers without going into detail. This is not enough to back up changes attributing all the numbers Heinemann gives to the 1939 census (though it is possible she is citing the census, but we don't know for sure), that's why I attributed them to Heinemann directly. Also, the "Nazis" did not "claim" someone to be German. If the 1939 census is the source, the persons declared themselves to be German, and the Nazis were the ones not satisfied with this mere declaration, but "racially evaluated" everyone and decided who was "really" German only after this process. Skäpperöd ( talk) 16:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC) The Heinemann numbers are not directly attributed to the 1939 census. In a footnote regarding East Upper Silesia, she refers to another book, "Musterstadt", for problems with the 1939 numbers without going into detail. This is not what Heinmann writes actually. She clearly mentions that the results are from December census performed in bezirke and gau's during 1939. Now what other then Nazi authority was able to conduct census in that regions. And btw-I am afraid you are confusing the Gaus with Polish annexed territories. Only Warthegau was made solely out of them-others acquired Polish territories but consisted of already existing German areas. In fact it would be good idea to split this information into the Gau article itself, while leaving information about Polish annexed territories. Anyway If you insist on disputing what Heinmann writes I can simply quote her and let others decide if what you are saying is correct. However her data isn't essential here as it concerns only partially the topic. -- Molobo ( talk) 23:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC) Oberschlessien hatte 4.2 Millionen Einwohner in annektier Ostoberschlesien(Regierungsbezirk Kattowitz) lebten etwa 2.43 Millionen Menschen, davon ungefahr 1,08 Millionen Deutsche, 930 ,000 Polen und fast 90.000 Juden. Zu den problemen der daten die auf einwohnererfassun vom Dezember 1939 beruhen It is clear from the above text that she quotes data from Nazi administrative units. In addition the data is only in regards to part of the annexed territory and the whole annexed area of Polish Silesia by Germany. Thus-we have only partial information, second what others then Nazis conducted population polls in December 1939 ? Third-the information is not about Polish annexed territories but wider region. -- Molobo ( talk) 23:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
As the areas have been merged with German ones the Nazi census was further manipulated. But they are estimates of number of Germans in Polish areas and I will source them as soon as possible. Additionall estimates for Germans settled are in the collaborative scholary work WYSIEDLENIA, WYPĘDZENIA I UCIECZKI 1939-1959. ATLAS ZIEM POLSKI [2] And here [3] -- Molobo ( talk) 14:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
We don't need to attribute most statements in text, not unless it is important to clarify that this opinion is held by a particular person. See also Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Is_detailed_attribution_good_or_bad_practice.3F. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be any major scholary dispute. There are differences in numbers but not in great scale. -- Molobo ( talk) 23:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
1.Changed structure to logical order-first annexed units, then what were they annexed into. 2.Gave information on various measures specific to annexed territories. 3.Gave information regarding Nazi estimates 4.Numerous other minor information expansions. 5.Moved information from invasion of Poland to proper place. -- Molobo ( talk) 23:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Your "logic" fucked messed up the format. Also, this article is about the time during the annexation, not before. Also you again messed up the Heinemann numbers stating they are the Nazi census. This is your generalization and interpretion of a footnote in Heinemann's book that does not say so. The table you inserted also needs some more work.
Skäpperöd (
talk) 06:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
This information is obviously wrong, Danzig-WP was also partially made up of pre-war German territory.
Skäpperöd ( talk) 08:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I see a lot of OR in your text-nowhere had I read that reversing Versailles was the reason for annexation of Łódż or territories that never formed German Empire. Could you give us source on that ? That the military districts were created is true but nor relevant to the subject in great deal-I moved the information ot Invasion of Poland. As to dispute by Nazis and Wehrmach who gets which territory-It makes me happy me that you are interested in information I provided, I can add more if you wish but this shouldn't distort the article. As to the precise number it is more elegant to use the exact numbers rather the rough estimates here-Is there any reason to remove this ? Please also check references-they clearly show what documents are used, also the documents are widely used in scholary works on the subject so they are notable.-- Molobo ( talk) 08:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
1."She does not say so, so don't attribute it to her." Heinmann: Oberschlessien hatte 4.2 Millionen Einwohner in annektier Ostoberschlesien(Regierungsbezirk Kattowitz) lebten etwa 2.43 Millionen Menschen, davon ungefahr 1,08 Millionen Deutsche, 930 ,000 Polen und fast 90.000 Juden. Zu den problemen der daten die auf einwohnererfassun vom Dezember 1939 beruhen Do you want me to consult others if the data here is A-relavant since it does not concern Polish territories but Reischsgaue B-If Heinmann uses census data from Nazi administrative units C-If Heinmann mentions problems with the data D-If there was any other census then Nazi census in Nazi Administrative units ?-- Molobo ( talk) 11:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
2. Concentrate on the topic not on the person you are talking to. "Everybody knows" is not an argument and constitutes Original Research.-- Molobo ( talk) 11:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
3.Sure, I will link it to proper section in Invasion of Poland.-- Molobo ( talk) 11:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
4.The article is still in process of expansion. However the dispute is not really that relavant, I am surprised on your insistance that it is. What sources back you up that it is important ?-- Molobo ( talk) 11:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I have copyedited the first part of the article. I think both sides make good points, but please, try to keep the above discussion structured - in the moddle I got lost trying to figure out who's replying to whom. My thoughts:
I am not addressing other issues because either I have no strong opinion, or the above discussion doesn't allow me to clearly understand the points being made. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I think we should move Heinmann data to proper place in Reichsgau article. People are now confusing the data of those Reichsgau with Polish areas. Furthermore the data is complicated by the unreliability of the Nazi census she presented.What do you think -- Molobo ( talk) 17:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I cut this paragraph from the article as it is not transporting any information. It reads
This paragraph needs to be rewritten or left out:
It would be very helpful if we could expand the article on census in Germany, particularly with section on Nazi census of 1939 and its reliability. I think that one of Molobo's points here is that Nazi data is unreliable and this should be pointed out in the text. It seems like a good point to me. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The 1939 census data is not even cited here. The only reason the paragraph is in here is the insistence of Molobo that Heinemann cited the figures, which is still unproven (see numerous posts above). Actually, it is now evident that the Heinemann figures for Warthegau and Danzig-WP are the same as in the table - this table however gives the November estimate and not the December census. I shortened the Heinemann paragraph accordingly. The only possibility that December census data is in the article is the Heinemann figure for East Upper Silesia. Heinemann says in the footnote that these numbers are based on a population count of December 1939, which still does not mean that she cited them unprocessed, though it is possible.
Much cited Piotr Eberhardt in his 2003 book says their was a debate whether the 1939 census is reliable or not, and summarizes that some (German) authors said so and some (Polish) authors said it is not. So I would not introduce a proven unreliability but rather a note that there was (is?) a debate. But if we do not have the census data in here, it does not make much sense to include such a note at all.
The 1939 census sure has the problem most pre- and post-war censuses have, that is the census asks for either a German or a Polish ethnicity. In the broader area of the historical Polish-German frontier, for many people it was not easy to sort themselves into one of these categories, and such a "non-fixed ethnicity" could switch from Polish to German and back depending on the political circumstances. Even after the war there was the "verification" and "rehabilitation" of "autochtones", a million of which were confirmed as Poles. So this million is the bottom margin of uncertainty we have, given the high number of people who died during the war or fled and did not return. Additionally we have an uncertain number of people who considered themselves to be Germans/Poles, and then the Nazis came, "evaluated" them and said "No you are not a German but an untermensch" or "No you are not a Pole but a Polonized German". A German who could not with documents prove the aryaness of at least three generations of his ancestors was not regarded German by the Nazis, wheras a Pole who fit in their pseudo-scientific racial parameters was in many cases.
Given these rationales, it would be easiest to leave the 1939 census out as long as it is not even cited here. Or, to insert a section about the inconsistency between ethnic categorization and the self-perception of the so categorized, which may include a paragraph about the census. I fear however we would unreasonably boost the scope of the article with such a section. Skäpperöd ( talk) 10:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
As the data isn't clear and author indicates the Nazi census has its problems I removed this information per undue weight.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Skäpperöd for making editions piece by piece, it so much easier to follow and understand. Thanks again.-- Jacurek ( talk) 22:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The number in the table (> 7 million) seems way too high. Heinemann says all Upper Silesia had 4.2 million inhabitants (Rasse, Siedlung ... p.229), Autonomous Silesian Voivodeship (annexed part minus two counties, ~half of Upper Silesia) article says 1.5 million in 1925. Maybe the numbers in the table are for all of Silesia? This needs to be checked. Skäpperöd ( talk) 10:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I've created a new article, since its something that seems to apply not only to annexed territories but also to General Government. I also noticed there there seem to be lack of categories for historical German administrative territories? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I updated the article, added new information in regards to Nazi repressions and measures, I added tables, new sections and data as to support for Nazi rule, number of incidents with friendly Germans reported, new demographic tables. Merged repressions as it was illogical to have the article split into two seperate repressive sections. Somebody removed from the lead that Jews and Poles were target of genocide-I restored it. I will continue to update the article as time allows.-- Molobo ( talk) 13:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
...should not be used here. See this thread at WP:RS/N. Skäpperöd ( talk) 12:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
When I read the above citation my observation is that the material posted is communist propaganda, a clever way to whitewash German crimes in Poland, imply that it is communist propaganda. Think!!-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
In the respective WP:RS/N thread (linked above), most participants said these sources must be used with care and that these sources should be used to illustrate the Communist era historiographic perception. That is clearly not what is done here, and the removal of in-text attribution to indicate that the sources are from the Communist era wasn't suitable either. I again tagged the respective sections as relying heavily or entirely on Communist era sources - which is an undisputed fact - until this is fixed. Skäpperöd ( talk) 12:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
As the scholar and historian Andrzej Friszke noted in IPN Bulletin fom 4th May of 2004 Czesław Madajczyk remains the best author and scholar in regards to studies on Nazi Germany's policies in Poland. Also Friszke did write that most of Polish research on Nazi Germany is based on publications before 1989 as post-1989 researches focused on Soviet era and territories [4]-as such there is no doubt that this sources are considered reliable. In fact even modern historians from Germany use Madajczyk's works and praise him which can be sourced.
For the abuse of tags see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism
Abuse of tags Bad-faith placing of non-content tags or other tags on pages that do not meet such criteria. This includes removal of extremely-long-standing policy and related tags without forming consensus on such a change first.
In regards to the template itself it doesn't have its place here. Much as I dislike Peoples Republic of Poland, its really is absurd to name it a totalitarian communist regime in 1987. It certainly was not totalitarian nor communist. The template is more fitting to sources from Stalinist period in SU or North Korean sources.-- Molobo ( talk) 13:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
The discussion seems to have moved to Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2009_May_17#Template:Communist_era_sources. Skäpperöd ( talk) 19:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Please keep in mind this is not the article about Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles. This is an article whose section should describe Nazi treatment of Poles on the annexed territories and make it clear how it differed from treatment of Poles in the General Government. Only if the treatment differed it should be described there, there is no need to repeat the content of the Nazi crimes... article here. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Certainly Piotrus-the information here comes directly from specific measures used in annexed territories mentioned. GG was to be used as reservation for Poles untill their final extermination within 10-15 years as designed by Germany. The differences are mentioned by Madajczak-for instance Catholic Church was going to be exploited rather then destroyed in order to better control Polish population. Age of slave labour was highter in GG then in annexed territories and so on. But the measures described here are specific to Annexed territories-the German terror in GG was based on other means and laws. The best comparision is that while General Gouvernment was a concentration camp with slave labour, Annexed territories were mainly a death camp for Polish and Jewish population that was to be removed as fast as possible. Of course some general information is needed-such as classification of Poles and Jews as creatures inferior to dogs by German authorities.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:09, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Large parts of the article are based on two sources published in Communist Poland. How should these sources be used and attributed? How should the results of this RS/N discussion and this TfD discussion be adapted? Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
After the above-linked RS/N discussion, I have in-text attributed these sources like this:
This was removed. I have then tagged the sections in question with "Template:Communist era sources". The template was removed and the above linked TfD discussion was initiated.
I request a comment what (alternative) approach should be used here. Pre-1989 Poland was ruled by a totalitarian Communist regime with an anti-German agenda. That makes every book published in Poland during this era likely to be biased regarding contemporary history. If information derived from such sources is nevertheless used in wikipedia, the reader needs to be aware of it. Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Judging by the title of second publication Dokumenty niemieckie (German documents), it is some collection of documents from the 1939-1945 period. This is not a communist-era source, although selection of documents may be biased. D.Albionov ( talk) 01:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
To finish this, here's a proof that Czesław Madajczyk (1970) is cited in hundreds of works published after 1989: [5], including over a hundred English language works: [6]. Czesław Łuczak (1987) is slightly less known, but is still cited in close to a hundred works: [7], [8]. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Molobo just picked this book up in the library yesterday, you may find it of interest. Author is Phillip T. Rutherford Title is Prelude to the Final Solution: The Nazi Program for Deporting Ethnic Poles, 1939-1941Hardcover, ISBN 0700615067 Publisher: Univ Pr of Kansas, 2007 The fate of Polish Jews under the German occupation has been well documented, but not as much is known about the wartime ordeal of non-Jewish Poles. Phillip Rutherford investigates Nazi policies of "ethnic cleansing" to reveal the striking anti-Polish nature of the crusade to Germanize newly occupied territory and to show... This will suffice as a reliable source, but the article would need some redo work. Regards--- Woogie10w ( talk) 21:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Since one user continues to object Madajczyk as reliable source here is what The Institute of History of Present Time (research unit of the CNRS, the French National Center for Scientific Research) has to say about Madajczyk:
"It is with great sadness that we have learned of the death of Professor Czeslaw Madaiczyk, Chairman of the Polish Committee for the History of World War I and II, who died on 15 February 2008. Czeslaw Madajczyk was an eminent historian, whose scholarly work on 20th Century Polish and European History has been widely acknowledged and respected. His important studies on Nazi occupation of Europe after 1938, and in particular on Hitler’s rule of Poland have greatly enhanced our understanding of the often complicated and obscured processes of German occupation policies as well as of the differing experiences of ordinary peoples under Fascist dictatorship and oppression. These and some of his other books, notably on cultural life in Nazi occupied Europe, on the “Generalplan Ost” and other German war-time plans for Eastern Europe as well as on the Soviet massacre at Katyn, have become milestones of the historiography of the Second World War. He was a co-founder and for more than two decades also the first editor of the distinguished Polish quarterly “Dzieje Najnowsze” (Recent History). Between 1971 and 1983 Professor Madajczyk led the Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Besides he was Vice-President of the Polish Committee of Historical Sciences (1971-1985) and later became one of the Vice-Presidents of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War (1980–1995). In these capacities Czeslaw Madajczyk was an ardent supporter of international scholarly cooperation and exchanges, even at times when relations between historians on both sides of the iron curtain were still threatened or questioned by political conditions and developments. The death of Czeslaw Madajczyk is a grave loss for the international community of World War II historians. Gerhard Hirschfeld President of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War" [9]
I hope this settles once and for all if Madajczyk is acceptable and reliable source by modern standards. -- Molobo ( talk) 18:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
During the B-class review for WikiProject Poland, User:Piotrus determined that the article seems to him to meet the criteria for the B-class. Good job! — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 00:26, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
There was a mistake in the text, Madajczyk noted that there were only ) noted that 529 cases of friendly contacts between Germans and Poles reported by Gestapo, not intimate contacts. I corrected the mistake.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:58, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
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Hello, I think there's a typo: Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany#Expulsion and genocide of Poles and Jews Heinemann and Łuczak ak as cited by Eberhardt detail the expulsions as follows ("ak"). Best regards, - Bédévore [knock knock] 22:08, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
…move the article to other titles without consensus. Especially highly POV irredentist ones. Volunteer Marek 23:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)