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There's a contradiction in regard to Money's definition of autonepiophilia.
In the section on diaper fetishism it states:
"John Money distinguishes between infantilism or autonepiophilia and paraphilic diaper-wearing, stating that the latter is a paraphilic fetish that manifests as an erotic attraction to an article of clothing while the former is a non-fetishistic paraphilia directed at a change of status in terms of age identity" (Money, 1986, p. 96)
In the section on Lovemap theory it states:
"Money also coined the term "autonepiophilia" meaning a "diaperism" or diaper fetishism in 1984 to describe the condition." (Money, 1984, no page given)
These readings appear to be incommensurate. Either Money had changed his position on the meaning of the term by 1986 or one of our readings is in error. As he states in 1986 the terms infantilism (autonepiophilia) and paraphilic diaperism stand for two phenomena. Also Money 1985 refers to the coining of the term in conjunction with the Greek classicist Diskin Clay and that the word nepon is Greek for infant (Money, 1985, p.147; see also Money 1986, p. 70). — Preceding unsigned comment added by FiachraByrne ( talk • contribs) 00:30, August 30, 2011
Money's 1984 article is represented fairly in the infantilism article. He does refer to autonepiophilia as "diaperism" (p. 167) and "a diaper fetish" (p.171). He also classifies autonepiophilia as a fetish in this article (he lists 6 categories of paraphilia: Sacrificial, Predatory, Mercantile, Fetish, Eligibility, Allurement). However, in his 1986 book Lovemaps he categorises autonepiophilia as a Eligibility (or Stigmatic) paraphilia. FiachraByrne ( talk) 01:37, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
I realize the clinical term is, strictly speaking, both accurate and non-disparaging to informed audiences. However, given our audience is nonspecialists and WP:TECHNICAL, as well as the huge red flags that the word "pedophile" raises in the gneeral community, I think there is definite merit in using a definition rather than the "quote" term. In other words, instead of "autoerotic pedophilia", it's "sexually attracted to the idea of being a child."
Another option might be to provide the definition, followed by an attributed term - "the ETLE theory states that the person is attracted to the idea of being a child, which X and Y term 'autoerotic pedophilia'." It's still very important IMO to draw a bold, bright line between pedophiles and infantilists, particularly because of the (completely justified) stigma that is attached to pedophilia. More sources that make the distinction would help. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 13:38, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Here's the thing though. CB&B report F&B as regarding ETL, whether internal or external, as a basic dimension of sexuality and independent of the object of attraction. Therefore, for them, what would seem to separate the autogynaephile or whatever is that object of attraction (in this instance children, although the child as self here). I think also their discussion of diaper fetishists apparently lacking infantilist qualities should also be understood in terms of this. This is so because if the diaper fetishists are not lying to the clinicians about their self-imaging as a child or if they don't represent some intermediary stage on the way to infantilism they are likely to be, according to ETL, paedophiles.
I think the page is now fully sourced. For the characteristics section I cited the Village Voice article; it's not ideal but it does give a pretty comprehensive breakdown of the major groups, and it's attributed to a practitioner. The split between practitioner (popular attention, little medical attention since they don't seek medical help) and medical/legal (where infantilism causes attention from doctors or courts) isn't ideal, but unless a sexologist makes these distinctions for us, we're pretty hamstrung. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 15:52, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Thank you WLU for removing the original research. I was questioning this in the past however I could see the page was high-jacked by an editor strong in his POV and it would take more patience then I had to resolve the problems. Gogreenlight ( talk) 18:45, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
This morning's revert was yet another demonstration of WLU's sense of ownership over this article.
I suspect WLU will try to claim FiachraByrne's support, but her last relevant edit was to revert him [10]. Next he might claim grassroots support, after including this article on a list of "socking" resources. Of course, if non-sockpuppet/meatpuppet support were really present, such a list wouldn't be needed. What WLU really needs to do is read the sources and let others edit. BitterGrey ( talk) 15:16, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
WLU recently made the following comment: "...Several editors have agreed that the DSM doesn't discuss infantilism in the sense used on this page. Bringing up Cantor's own editing history on wikipedia is meaningless since he's not responsible for any of the recent changes..." [16]
This, of course, is simply untrue. The first refers to an RSN discussion, now archived [17]. Cantor became involved in that discussion [18] [19]. Of course, he argued against the DSM and offered his own publication as an alternative. He never mentioned that there was a conflict between the DSM and his employer, CAMH. (In the DSM, the APA categorizes infantilism under masochism. CAMH, or at least a few of Cantor's coworkers there, categorized it as a type of pedophilia.) After that exchange and the one at AN/I [20], Cantor's article went from being cited zero times in this article to being cited NINE (9) times - more than any other reference.
Prior to this growth opportunity, Cantor had himself used the DSM to define infantilism on Wikipedia [21].
Cantor et al's publication is the only one connecting the fringe theory by his coworkers Fruend and Blanchard to infantilism. Fruend and Blanchard did not mention infantilism when defining their fringe theory.
Cantor's involvement was instrumental in this conflict, enabling WLU to push the fringe theory of Cantor's coworkers. WLU might have conveniently forgotten this. If WLU wishes, I can detail where the remainder of those "several editors" made it clear that they hadn't read even the relevant pages of the DSM. BitterGrey ( talk) 01:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
WLU, please stop prodding others in hopes of getting a gang together (eg, one person, three pokes: [24] [25] [26]). I realize that all your "me and my gang vs. you and nobody agrees with you" claims seem silly since no one is voluntarily supporting you. However, this is not an excuse for votestacking. Wikipedia should be driven by sources, real (not votestacked) consensus, and policy.
The policy you are trying to dodge is the one that is intended to maintain a neutral point of view by holding that an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. Given the odds that you will again accuse me of distorting or misunderstanding, I'll include the exact quote: "Fringe theory in a nutshell: To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea." Or more specific to the CAMH fringe theory you are pushing " Fringe theories may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way.."
This article is about infantilism, not "masochistic qynephiles" or whatever they are called in the fringe theory you are trying to push, by edit warring to include it in THREE PLACES in the article. It seems plainly clear that there are no independent sources - so your fringe theory does not meet criteria for inclusion defined by the guideline. BitterGrey ( talk) 15:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Blanchard's fringe theory, about which no independent source is available and about which not even two CAMH sources agree, is now being pushed by WLU as both paraphilic infantilism and some other condition. This is a contradiction. BitterGrey ( talk) 15:59, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
It is claimed that citing Blanchard, Freund, Cantor and Barbaree's works is undue weight to appear three times. There is no consensus on what causes or contributes to paraphilic infantilism that I am aware of, merely a small number of theories. The DSM certainly does not (see discussion). Three sections have been tagged:
Within the supersection of "Relation to other conditions":
Paraphilic infantilism#Pedophilia - In this section, Blanchard and Freund are cited to make a distinction between pedophilia and paraphilic infantilism. This is two sentences, clearly attributed.
Paraphilic infantilism#Other conditions - In this section, a single sentence fragment is used to indicate some authors believe that PI is a form of autoeroticism akin to autogynaephilia. There are three sources, one of which is a letter to the editor not written by any of the four authors cited above. This clearly suggests that the theory has some respect and thus is not a fringe theory.
Within the supersection of "Causes":
Paraphilic infantilism#Erotic location target error - This is the place where Blanchard et al. get the most text as one of three proposed causes for PI. It is two sentences long, and there is an illegitimate citation of the DSM despite outside input noting it is not appropriate (noted above, but let's link again: discussion).
In none of these three cases is the citation lengthy. In the first and third it is attributed as an opinion. There does not seem to be any scholarly consensus for the cause, or relationship between PI and any other disorders. In all cases, alternatives are discussed which are of approximately the same length. All the sources are peer reviewed articles or a chapter in a scholarly book. In no case has any of the theories or links been criticized in the scholarly literature that I am aware of, and no such critical sources have been presented. Particluarly when there is a lack of discussion of PI overall (noted in references 12, 6 and 15) this is not undue weight. The sources are used for different purposes (in the first two sections to distinguish between PI and pedophilia and a proposed link to autoeroticism respectively; in the third section it proposes an etiology). Given the expertise of the scholars writing (all sexologists who study and publish on paraphilias), the reliability of the sources (Oxford University Press and the British Journal of Psychiatry), and the lack of a generally accepted etiology or link to other disorders in the psychiatric/psychological community in general, this is not undue weight. It is appropriate weight given to proposed explanations by experts publishing in respected venues. I propose the undue weight and contradiction tags be removed. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 16:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Freund and Blanchard (1993) referred to this characteristic as an erotic target location error...They interpret infantilism as an erotic target location error for persons whose erotic target is children, that is, infantilism as an autoerotic form of epdophilia.
WLU, please skip the accusations and claims of "subtle, nuanced issues" too mysterious for other editors to understand. The relevant Wikipedia policies are clear and simple. This is an article about infantilism, not whatever Freund and Blanchard discuss. In their article, they never referred to it as infantilism. The minimum standard for inclusion is set by the fringe theories guideline: " Fringe theories may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way." The essay on independent sources gives detail: "An independent source is a source that has no significant connection to the subject and therefore describes it from a disinterested perspective." Blanchard et all has a significant connection with Blanchard et all, and so is not independent. All five authors being cited are or were coworkers with Blanchard at CAMH.
WLU, if you have any independent sources for this fringe theory, why don't you share them? If you don't, accept that Wikipedia guidelines don't permit the inclusion of that fringe theory - much less in multiple places in the article. BitterGrey ( talk) 03:03, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
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While I'm neutral about a recent edit by an IP [44], I would have tended to keep it as a good faith edit, and to encourage new contributors. (Well, after removing the one extra coma for a coma-separated list, or switching the other comas to semicolons, that is.) WLU's version of the article could benefit from improvements by others: Improvements which won't occur if he continues to demonstrate a sense of ownership by reverting changes by others. This has been brought up before [45]. WLU's only response was to make accusations on another board, accusations that he then need to retract because they were based on assumptions of ill will [46] [47].)
WLU's given motivation for quickly reverting back to his own version, "they'd be diaper lovers, not infantilists", is not valid. The nearby link to diaper lovers redirects to the diaper fetish article, which defines it as "a sexual fetish." Those who "enjoy the diapers in a non-sexual way, and do not identify as adult babies" would then not be simply grouped as diaper fetishists.
WLU, I believe it is time you stepped back and let others edit. BitterGrey ( talk) 05:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
F&B's "Erotic target location errors in male gender dysphorics, paedophiles, and fetishists." is about, according to the very first line "A clinical series of male paedophiles..." The article doesn't mention "infantilism" at all. In contrast, "paedophile" or "paedophilic" occur 16 times, including the title. The article claims to be about pedophiles, not infantilists. The DSM and many, many other sources clearly differentiate between infantilism and pedophilia. Unless part of some assertion that infantilism is a form of pedophilia - an exceptional claim not supported by any independent sources - F&B doesn't belong here. BitterGrey ( talk) 22:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
The hyperfocus on the use of the word "pedophilia" while ignoring what the actual source intends is a blatant misrepresentation of the source. Freund & Blanchard use their case series to distinguish between pedophiles and infantilists, and Cantor, Blanchard & Barbaree is a secondary source that also makes that distinction while clearly referencing infantilists explicitly. Claiming the DSM discusses infantilists at all is flatly wrong, which you know, and which the community has clearly stated is wrong, twice here and here. Why you think I'd change my mind when there's no evidence of that is beyond me. FiachraByrne's comment is distinguishing between two groups of infantilists - those who do so because of masochism and those who do so because of an erotic target location error. The full quote is:
CB&B refer to Freund and Blanchard's 1993 article and state that, "They hypothesized that erotic target location was a basic dimension of sexual attraction, independent of the nature of the erotic target (object) itself. They interpreted infantilism as an erotic target location error for persons whose erotic target is children, that is, infantilism as an autoerotic form of pedophilia" (p.531). It would seem clear that CB&B characterise infantilism as an "erotic identity disorder" (p.530). That they wish to apply this concept as a general one across the paraphilias is obvious from their parallel treatment of transexualism (autogynaephilia) and those who self-image as amputees. Similary F&B assert that errors in erotic targeting are a basic feature of the paraphilias. They delineate a small sub-set of paedophiles who self-image as infants or children. The term they use as an analogue to gender identity disorder is "age identity disorder" and they obviously see it as structurally very similar (irrespective of the object of attraction) to the former condition. In these autoerotic disorders, they conjecture, the object of attraction becomes inverted and attached to the self. They clearly distinguish this paraphilia from what they term "masochistic gynaephiles" who although they fantasise about themselves as infants or little boys do so in fantasies involving adult women. They speculate that this group is fundamentally different from the previous one although the fantasies are similar as one use the fantasy to increase distance and difference from their sexual object (women) and the other use it to collapse difference (infants/children). As CB&B refer to infantilism as an autoerotic form of paedophilia it would seem that they consider it distinct from similar behaviour with a putatively different aetiology that is essentially masochistic.
But really if you want to know what FiachraByrne thinks now and of the current page, you'll have to ask her.
If your argument is that F&B should be removed from the page, it essentially changes nothing - Cantor, Barbaree & Blanchard can be used to verify the exact same points as Freund & Blanchard's 1993 paper. The first use in the pedophilia section states that pedophiles are attracted to kids while infantilists are attracted to the idea of being kids. The second use is redundant to two other citations, one of which is Cantor, Blanchard and Barbaree, a reliable source, and merely states that infantilism has been linked to autoeroticism and autogynephilia. So by all means, remove the sources and replace them with CBB, but there is no reason to change the text. And here is the long, pointless discussion I've been wanting to avoid, but what have you. Again, nothing changes. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 17:04, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, this is why I consider engaging with you on a talk page to be virtually worthless. CB&B is not a primary source, and CB&B and F&B both make it clear that infantilists are not pedophiles. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 13:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
In my opinion the 3O is unclear, there is no central question asked. In my opinion the issues are whether the sources in the removed text are reliable, relevant and appropriately summarized. The two sources are Cantor, Blanchard & Barbaree's chapter in the Oxford Textbook of Psychopathology, page 531 (available via google books preview here) and Freund & Blanchard's paper in the British Journal of Psychiatry, PMID 8481752 (which I can e-mail). A letter to the editor is also used as a citation [63], which I can also e-mail. I see the sources as reliable (published in a peer reviewed journal and a textbook by Oxford University Press), relevant (Cantor et al. discusses infantilism explicitly, Freund & Blanchard does so implicitly but is also explicitly cited by Cantor et al. as discussing infantilism - thus no original research is needed to verify the text, while the argument to exclude the paper is itself original research that ignores the relevant parts of the F&B case series - the comments section found on pages 561-2 where pedophiles and infantilsts are contrasted, and the discussion section found on page 562 where the theory of erotic target location errors is discussed - both from Freund & Blanchard 1993) and appropriately summarized (the sources clearly distinguish between pedophilles and paraphilic infantilists; the theory of erotic target location errors states that these are different points on a continuum - pedophiles desire child sexual partners, infantilists desire to be transformed into children and adult sexual partners who treat them as such). They are not a fringe theory, they are in my opinion an alternative theoretical formulation for a condition with very little research on it. The current version of the page does not feature these sources used in this manner, they were removed in this diff. These are the specific reference uses:
In an effort to keep this section short, I will stop here and not address the obvious behavioural issues. For me, the only issue that needs 3O input is whether the sources are adequate and appropriately summarized. I believe an appropriate summary can be found in the old version. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 00:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
In August 2011, WLU wrote "I've been ignoring Bitter[G]rey's constant claims of bias and his interpretations. Cuts down on the reading." [88] He has admitted to not considering my input in other places as well (eg [89] [90]...). Friday, WLU wrote "I'll continue to revert, but I have nothing to add to this talk page beyond the thousands of words I've already put in." As is clear from the archives, "thousands of words" is no exaggeration. There will still be the issue of the edit wars due to WLU's sense of ownership, of course. However, much of the time that would have been wasted preparing discussion points for WLU to ignore will be saved.
So can we get this (or maybe just the second part) written in stone? BitterGrey ( talk) 04:04, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Those looking over that page might notice that a few articles are heavily cited, even though they are given little weight elsewhere. This isn't was a consensus development, but the result of a determination of an editor to specifically cite CAMH sources: two papers written by four authors, all at the same facility, CAMH. For brevity, we'll call the papers F&B (Freund and Blanchard) and C,B,&B (Cantor, Blanchard, and Barbaree). This determination would also have driven the removal of references to the DSM, since the APA's established, consensus view as expressed in the DSM was in conflict with some of CAMH's conclusions. A number of the CAMH conclusions disagree with basic observations. This is why they have been largely disregarded as fringe theories in academia.
These fringe theories include:
A) Everyone expressing a sexual interest in diapers, but who doesn't want to be a baby, either has an incomplete form of infantilism or is hiding their desire to be a baby. (C,B,&B pg 531) That is, diaper fetishes do not exist.
B) Female gynephiles don't exist.(F&B 588) That is, women who prefer women - lesbians - do not exist.
C) Infantilism is an autoerotic form of pedophilia (C,B,&B pg 531).
With additional synthesis from WLU, that "masochistic qynephile"=infantilist, the fringe theories also include:
D) Infantilists ("masochistic qynephiles") are all heterosexual males or homosexual females (qyne = woman, wife). Homosexual male infantilists do not occur.
E) All infantilists will (if complete) want to be baby girls. A pedophilic masochistic qynephile with the "erotic target location error" hypothesized would desire to be the erotic target of a pedophilic qynephile; a little girl. (pedo- child, gyne- woman, wife)
These fringe theories, and the papers advocating them, should not be included.
1: Per the Fringe theories guideline: " Fringe theories may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way." Since this is not an article on these fringe theories but on paraphilic infantilism, the fringe theories may only be mentioned if connected by independent sources. C, B, B, and F are all colleagues: C, B(lanchard), &B is not independent of F&B(lanchard).
2: Without fudging the sources, mentioning fringe theory B would involve "pedophilia," an emotionally charged word. per MOS, " Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." One facility represented by four people, two sources is not "widely used."
3: Regarding fringe theory C, the C,B,&B paper only cites the one paper by F&B. As detailed in the essay on "Party and Person," first-party work without meta-analysis of multiple primary sources is itself just a primary source, and so C,B,&B is primary in this regard.
4: Also regarding fringe theory C; The text of F&B was so ambiguous that WLU thought "Freund & Blanchard explicitly states that the sexual focus is only superficially similar and discusses what distinguishes a pedophile from an infantilist (which they term masochistic gynaephile)." [96] until it was pointed out to him that his reading of F&B differed from the one presented in C, B. &B [97].
5: F&B is structured around novel categories labeled with neologisms. Neologisms should generally be avoided because their definitions tend to be unstable and many do not last. In particular, it does not use the term "paraphilic infantilism." Attempts to use C,B,&B to conclude that one or more specific neologisms is infantilism are WP:original research, since C,B,&B doesn't state which neologism(s) was intended to replace paraphilic infantilism, and so mean(s) the same thing. The assumption that it was the category that is least out-of-line from the DSM ("masochistic qynephile") is just that - an assumption.
6: C,B,&B cites Malitz and Tuchman & Lachman to support "There have also been reports of individuals ... who express no desire to seem like an infant (Malitz, 1966, Tuchman & Lachman, 1964)" However, they both mentioned regression. Malitz: "Dynamically the patient's diaper [fetish] appeared to symbolize a regression to infancy in order to reclaim the attention and love of his mother and to undo his displacement in her affections by his sister's birth." Tuchman & Lachman conclude "The regressive quality and symbolism of the behavior pattern suggest a schizophrenic mechanism." When challenged on this point, James Cantor commented only on the typography on the challenge, not the sexology. (Pate comments that neither Malitz's nor Tuchman & Lachman's patient's said they wanted to be a baby. While both authors mentioned regressive themes, neither documented the patient saying that he wanted to be a baby.)
7: C,B,&B intermixes psychosexual infantilism (Stekel) and paraphilic infantilism (defined by the DSM). Most cases of psychosexual infantilism did not involve either diapers or babyhood. While reasonable before the publication of DSM IIIR, modern sources should observe this distinction. IIIR was the first to include a definition of paraphilic infantilism, and was published in 1987.
8: CAMH has editor(s?) on it's payroll promoting themselves and CAMH interests on Wikipedia. Only one of these is (or at least was) open about his financial conflict of interest, and then only after it was discovered by another editor [98]. Relevant to this article, he argued for removing references to the DSM from this article and suggested his own writings and an alternative [99]. This opened the door for his own writing to be cited in this article NINE times, even though it conflicted with the established consensus opinion, expressed in the DSM.
Alternatives to the promotion of all of this fringe, uncertainly, and baggage, have been proposed and ignored. BitterGrey ( talk) 03:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Independent sources are those subject to independent scrutiny (i.e. peer review) and publication. This is met by any article published in a peer reviewed journal or a scholarly press book as all of Blanchard, Freund, Cantor and Barbaree's works cited here are. Blanchard may indeed have an interest in how his theory is published and summarized, but that doesn't mean he has control over publication - if his ideas were not considered respected or supported, the peer review process or editor would not publish it. Quoting a policy doesn't mean it applies correctly. I've posted a notice at the reliable sources noticeboard.
The DSM issue was discussed and closed, for the second time I will point to it: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_103#Lack_of_references_in_the_DSM. If you are claiming the APA source that portrays the "consensus view" on paraphilic infantilism is the DSM, you are wrong and your interpretation has never been supported by any other editor.
Blanchard, Freund, Cantor and Barbaree's works are not fringe theories. You have provided no reliable sources to substantiate this assertion, merely your own opinion. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 15:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Some relevant quotes from a now-archived discussion [104] about these sources.
The discussion itself was stretched out to twelve thousand words, perhaps expecting that fatigue would prevent others from becoming involved in the article, or doing more than just expressing their concerns on the noticeboard. Sadly, this effect was apparently achieved. BitterGrey ( talk) 06:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Is the following text adequately sourced by the attached sources?
“ | In 1993 sexologists Ray Blanchard and Kurt Freund published and discussed a series of case studies involving infantilists(1) and noted a distinction between them and pedophiles. While pedophiles were attracted to children (and objects related to childhood) due to the desire for a child sexual partner, infantilists imagined themselves as children and adopted the objects of childhood or infancy to increase the power difference between themselves and their preferred sexual partners of adult women, with whom they acted out masochistic fantasies.(2) | ” |
“ | An additional theory is that infantilism is an erotic identity disorder where the erotic fantasy is centered on the self rather than on a sexual partner and results from an erotic targeting location error where the erotic target was children yet becomes inverted. According to this model, proposed by Ray Blanchard and Kurt Freund in 1993, infantilism is a sexual attraction to the idea of the self being a child.(1) | ” |
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I believe the sources are adequate; to be used exactly as they are currently would require a minor modification of the rules since reference (2) does not use the word "infantilism", but does define the key term "masochistic gynaephiles" as individuals who "habitually imagine themselves as little boys or babies" (Freund & Blanchard 1993, p. 561) - the definiton of paraphilic infantilists. Ray Blanchard is also a co-author of both the first (2009) and second (1993) sources. The 1993 source most clearly makes the distinction between pedophiles and paraphilic infantilists, making it most valuable in explicitly verifying the text. Cantor, Blanchard & Barbaree can be used for a modified version of the above. The actual statement from Cantor et al (2008) page 531 is "erotic fantasies of persons with erotic identity disorders pertain less to any sexual partners and more to their transformed images of themselves; some authors refer to these paraphilias as autoerotic...[Freund and Blanchard] interpreted infantilism as an erotic target location error for persons whose erotic target is children, that is, infantilism as an autoerotic form of pedophilia." Within the theory of "erotic target location errors", that places pedophilia on opposite ends of a spectrum; on one end are pedophiles (who are sexually attracted to children and desire children as sexual partners). On the other end are paraphilic infantilists (who are sexually attracted to the idea of being, and being treated like an infant, and desire adult sexual partners who treat them like children). Both sources clearly distinguish pedophiles from paraphilic infantilists, even if their wording is unclear to those not familiar with the theory of erotic target location errors.
This has been discussed, at length, repeatedly, before ( FTN, FTN2, FTN 3, RSN 1, and RSN 2, which started this morning and lead to this post at the suggestion of Kmhkmh). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 20:06, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
“ | The above cases suggest a distinction between paedophiles with erotic imagery of themselves as children and masochistic gynaephiles with similar fantasies. This view is based on our analysis of the relationships between the infantile (or juvenile) self-imagery and the other elements of the total fantasy. With paedophiles, this imagery increases the subject's similarity to the sexual object (children). With masochistic gynaephiles, the same imagery increases the subject's difference from the sexual object (women), in particular, the difference between subject and object in power and control. This power differential, expressed in such fantasies by the imagined woman spanking or scolding the subject, is central to the masochistic arousal. A similar analysis can be applied to the fetish objects (usually nappies) used in masturbation by the two groups. With paedophiles, the fetish derives its power from its association with the sexual object, children. With masochistic gynaephiles,the fetish derives its power from association with the (fantasised) subject; it is an accoutrement to the role of the shamed, defenceless, punished little boy. In light of these differences, we believe that erotic fantasies of being a child probably have different aetiologies in the two groups. | ” |
I question the necessity of this second discussion. As we've seen, it appears doomed to merely rehash what was already said in the prior discussion. The core issue is still that F&Bs "Erotic target location errors in male gender dysphorics, paedophiles, and fetishists." doesn't mention infantilism (or any synonym used by any other reliable source). Infantilism was formally defined six years prior (1987 vs 1993), so the authors could have used the established term - but chose not to. Perhaps the most basic question is whether we feel the need to, as WLU requests, ignore all rules to use this source. (He called it a "minor modification." [127]) We can discuss WP:SYNTH and WP:OR at great length, but that doesn't mean that their results should be used in articles. F&B's first sentence claims that it is based on "[a] clinical series of male paedophiles..." and we have no reason, short of WP:SYNTH or WP:OR, to question that. If we can't trust what an article says, we shouldn't be using it.
F&B claims to be about pedophilies, not infantilists. if we consider it reliable in this, we should not use it because it is not relevant. Alternatively, if we don't consider it reliable in this, we should not use it because it is not reliable. BitterGrey ( talk) 00:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Given the last round of silence, the next step is to edit. Here is a step-by-step description of what I'm removing and why:
1) Two citations to Freund & Blanchard, 1993: The term infantilism was formally adopted by the APA in the DSM IIIR, in 1987. F&B choose not to use that term, or any established synonym, in their paper. The first line of the abstract describes it as being based on a sample of pedophiles. Thus, according to F&B, F&B isn't about infantilism. Counterarguments degenerated into an invitation for WP:OR, equating "masochistic gynephiles" with infantilism based on editor opinion. This invitation was repeated nine times [160] [161] [162] [163] [164] [165] [166] [167] [168]. These were answered with past quotes from the inviter showing that in other contexts, he held that infantilists were not generally masochistic: "the sexual fixations are different - for infantilists it is being treated and coddled like an infant; for masochists it is the humiliation of being forced to be treated like a baby. One is about being cared for, the other is about being humiliated.". That is, infantilists are not generally masochists, and so not generally "masochistic gynephilies." Please note that the inviter continues to reject the DSM's applicability to infantilism (eg. [169]), even though it actually uses the term infantilism and multiple independent sources refer to it as a source on infantilism. Neither of these are true of F&B.
2) Two citations to Cantor, Blanchard, and Barbaree, 2009: These are used in WP:SYNTH to apply specific comments in F&B regarding "masochistic gynephiles" to infantilists, even though CB&B never use the term "masochistic gynephiles." This synth is contradicted by an on-wiki comment by James Cantor: "I have never met a professional who would diagnose paraphilic infantilism as masochism. In my experience, it is diagnosed as 'paraphilia NOS (infantilism)'. The erotic focus of masochism is the pain and humiliation, whereas the erotic focus of paraphilic infantilism is being treated as a baby. That is, people with paraphilic infantilism do not experience the interaction as humiliating, just erotic; whereas the masochists do not experience the interaction as being "mothered" (rather, they are obeying a dominatrix who is belittling them, which they do experience as erotic)."
3) The paragraph previously supported only by #1 and #2.
4) One citation to Dickey, 2007: As a letter to the editor, this was never peer-reviewed.
5) The phrase previously supported only by #1, #2, and #4.
6) One citation to Cantor, Blanchard, and Barbaree, 2009: In the paragraph on ETLE, the source reads "[Freund and Blanchard] interpreted infantilism as an erotic target location error for persons whose erotic target is children, that is, infantilism as an autoerotic form of pedophilia." Paul B at RSN commented "It's blindingly obvious that Blanchard believes that infantalism is an 'Autoerotic form of pedophilia'. WLU says that 'Autoerotic form of pedophilia' is not the same thing as 'pedophilia'. Well, yes it is. That's what 'a form of pedophilia' means. I think this theory is utterly idiotic..." [170]. This is also an exceptional claim, since no other RS claims that infantilism is pedophilia.
The paragraph removed in #3 is a good illustration of how problematic the sources are: F&B was previously used in Wikipedia to support text stating that infantilists _are not_ pedophiles. CB&B mention F&B as claiming that infantilists _are_ pedophiles. Per AGF, we can't assume that this is an intentional act of misrepresentation, but evidence that F&B is obscure, and indirectly that CB&B's comment on F&B isn't that certain. This might be why Dickey doesn't cite F&B, even though they all work for the same facility, CAMH. (In spite of this, there is no overlap in the terminology of Dickey, CB&B, and F&B.)
Even in Cantor's on-wiki comment, he wrote that "In my experience, it is diagnosed as 'paraphilia NOS (infantilism)'." ...not pedophilia. It is possible that the fringe theory that infantilists are pedophiles is only held by Blanchard, and then only recently. Fringe theories should be included in articles (other than those about the fringe theory itself) "only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way." Additionally, Exceptional claims require "multiple, high-quality sources". This single, questionable source doesn't fit the bill.
7) The section previously supported only by #6. On Dec 6th, this section was weasel-worded to avoid removal due to the exceptional claim. However, the exceptional claim is in the only source, so removing it from the text would be a misrepresentation. Whether the text includes or does not include the exceptional claim, the end result is the same: The text should be removed. BitterGrey ( talk) 02:17, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
“ | I have no idea what your bizarre "sky is purple" analogy is supposed to imply. If you published the statement in the peer reviewed "Oxford Companion to the Sky" it would not affect the book's status as a reliable source by Wikipedia's rules, and it certainly would not make it into a "primary source". It would simply be a case in which a technically reliable source contained an error. It happens regularly. This whole dispute seems to me to be built around deep disingenuousness. It's blindingly obvious that Blanchard believes that infantalism is an "Autoerotic form of pedophilia". WLU says that "Autoerotic form of pedophilia" is not the same thing as "pedophilia". Well, yes it is. That's what "a form of pedophilia" means. I think this theory is utterly idiotic, and I can well understand why Bittergrey finds it deeply offensive. But since I don't get published in peer reviewed medical/psychological journals my opinion is irrelevant. Bittergrey should just accept that a theory which he understandably finds offensive does exist in the literature, and stop wikilawyering to keep it out. The claim that a textbook is a primary source because it is "written by people directly involved" is particularly ludicrous. By this interepretation every peer reviewed work would be a primary source, since experts are obviously directly involved with the subject (the policy passage in fact refers to direct involvement in an event which is being described). WLU should admit that the theory does indeed state that infantalism is a form of paedophila, and recognise that infantalists will find this view offensive. The article should discuss the theory to the extent of the weight it has in the literature as a whole. | ” |
— Paul B |
“ | Yes, I read the debate. Clearly F&B did not use that term, but equally clearly they had the phenomenon we now call "infantalism" in mind. That is specified in the later publication. Yes, they "all come from the same facilty". Clearly it is the specific theory of a particular researcher and his associates. I can see no logic to your suggestion that "CB&B" may be a "primary source" for this claim. It is in the nature of scholarly secondary sources that they sift through material and present models of it. That's what scholars do. It'as one of the very things that defines a secondary source. | ” |
— Paul B |
I have been watching this dispute. My view is that everything WLU has said is absolutely right and that everything Bittergrey has said is absolutely wrong. To Bittergrey I would ask: if you find WLU's alleged attacks on your sexuality to be offensive or distressing, why are you so eager to draw other editor's attention to them by linking to them? 203.118.187.209 ( talk) 22:08, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I am not WLU, and have never been in any kind of communication with him off-Wiki or even on-Wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.118.187.226 ( talk) 01:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
As we can see by contrasting a Sept 2011 version with an April 2012 version, almost all significant changes from WLU's version have been reverted by WLU.
WLU does permit some spelling corrections and the removal of images, but quickly and dogmatically reverts almost all significant changes, demonstrating an ongoing sense of ownership. This has discouraged other editors from contributing. Those that do engage in discussion (me) see their time wasted, because WLU doesn't consider the points raised - he just reverts.
WLU's sense of ownership has been discussed before [244] [245]. WLU's only counterpoint was an accusation raised at wikiquette assistance, which he needed to retract when it became clear that he had not even looked at my edit [246]. BitterGrey ( talk) 16:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia should follow the consensus, not merely the majority. However, in practice at least, it seems that only the position of 203.118.x.x matters here. Based on this, I would like to ask 203.118.x.x which case or cases in F&B he or she believes CB&B were referring to. (Again, F&B is Freund and Blanchard, and CB&B is Cantor, Blanchard, et al.) BitterGrey ( talk) 14:50, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
How can a consensus be built if editors won't engage in meaningful discussion? If 203.118.x.x was not acting as a puppet, he or she would have needed to become familiar with the sources before joining the edit war. For one who is familiar with the sources and not pushing a misrepresentation, the question I asked is a simple one. Furthermore, it is important since F&B never use the term "infantilism" or any established synonym, and so can only be used after WP:SYNTH with CB&B. I asked a simple question a month ago, and am still waiting for an answer. BitterGrey ( talk) 22:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Freund and Blanchard's paper never uses the term "infantilism," nor any established synonym. WLU does not deny this, but still fights to keep it and misrepresentations of its claims in three sections of this article. In contrast, WLU removed a section from the corrective rape article commenting "Janoff doesn't use the term "corrective rape" at all...". These two positions are incompatible with any singular interpretation of Wikipedia standards. WLU is fighting to implement his own double standard.
Currently the only active editor to support WLU's current position on F&B is WLU. WLU has gone through at least three positions on F&B, but persists in his fight.
Freund and Blanchard could have used the then-formally-recognized term "infantilism" to describe their few subjects, but chose to use other terms. They described their patients mostly as pedophiles. Applying F&B to infantilism, in spite of what F&B actually wrote, is WP:OR at best. It should be removed from all three sections, since Freund and Blanchard doesn't use the term "infantilism" at all... BitterGrey ( talk) 00:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
There's a contradiction in regard to Money's definition of autonepiophilia.
In the section on diaper fetishism it states:
"John Money distinguishes between infantilism or autonepiophilia and paraphilic diaper-wearing, stating that the latter is a paraphilic fetish that manifests as an erotic attraction to an article of clothing while the former is a non-fetishistic paraphilia directed at a change of status in terms of age identity" (Money, 1986, p. 96)
In the section on Lovemap theory it states:
"Money also coined the term "autonepiophilia" meaning a "diaperism" or diaper fetishism in 1984 to describe the condition." (Money, 1984, no page given)
These readings appear to be incommensurate. Either Money had changed his position on the meaning of the term by 1986 or one of our readings is in error. As he states in 1986 the terms infantilism (autonepiophilia) and paraphilic diaperism stand for two phenomena. Also Money 1985 refers to the coining of the term in conjunction with the Greek classicist Diskin Clay and that the word nepon is Greek for infant (Money, 1985, p.147; see also Money 1986, p. 70). — Preceding unsigned comment added by FiachraByrne ( talk • contribs) 00:30, August 30, 2011
Money's 1984 article is represented fairly in the infantilism article. He does refer to autonepiophilia as "diaperism" (p. 167) and "a diaper fetish" (p.171). He also classifies autonepiophilia as a fetish in this article (he lists 6 categories of paraphilia: Sacrificial, Predatory, Mercantile, Fetish, Eligibility, Allurement). However, in his 1986 book Lovemaps he categorises autonepiophilia as a Eligibility (or Stigmatic) paraphilia. FiachraByrne ( talk) 01:37, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
I realize the clinical term is, strictly speaking, both accurate and non-disparaging to informed audiences. However, given our audience is nonspecialists and WP:TECHNICAL, as well as the huge red flags that the word "pedophile" raises in the gneeral community, I think there is definite merit in using a definition rather than the "quote" term. In other words, instead of "autoerotic pedophilia", it's "sexually attracted to the idea of being a child."
Another option might be to provide the definition, followed by an attributed term - "the ETLE theory states that the person is attracted to the idea of being a child, which X and Y term 'autoerotic pedophilia'." It's still very important IMO to draw a bold, bright line between pedophiles and infantilists, particularly because of the (completely justified) stigma that is attached to pedophilia. More sources that make the distinction would help. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 13:38, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Here's the thing though. CB&B report F&B as regarding ETL, whether internal or external, as a basic dimension of sexuality and independent of the object of attraction. Therefore, for them, what would seem to separate the autogynaephile or whatever is that object of attraction (in this instance children, although the child as self here). I think also their discussion of diaper fetishists apparently lacking infantilist qualities should also be understood in terms of this. This is so because if the diaper fetishists are not lying to the clinicians about their self-imaging as a child or if they don't represent some intermediary stage on the way to infantilism they are likely to be, according to ETL, paedophiles.
I think the page is now fully sourced. For the characteristics section I cited the Village Voice article; it's not ideal but it does give a pretty comprehensive breakdown of the major groups, and it's attributed to a practitioner. The split between practitioner (popular attention, little medical attention since they don't seek medical help) and medical/legal (where infantilism causes attention from doctors or courts) isn't ideal, but unless a sexologist makes these distinctions for us, we're pretty hamstrung. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 15:52, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Thank you WLU for removing the original research. I was questioning this in the past however I could see the page was high-jacked by an editor strong in his POV and it would take more patience then I had to resolve the problems. Gogreenlight ( talk) 18:45, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
This morning's revert was yet another demonstration of WLU's sense of ownership over this article.
I suspect WLU will try to claim FiachraByrne's support, but her last relevant edit was to revert him [10]. Next he might claim grassroots support, after including this article on a list of "socking" resources. Of course, if non-sockpuppet/meatpuppet support were really present, such a list wouldn't be needed. What WLU really needs to do is read the sources and let others edit. BitterGrey ( talk) 15:16, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
WLU recently made the following comment: "...Several editors have agreed that the DSM doesn't discuss infantilism in the sense used on this page. Bringing up Cantor's own editing history on wikipedia is meaningless since he's not responsible for any of the recent changes..." [16]
This, of course, is simply untrue. The first refers to an RSN discussion, now archived [17]. Cantor became involved in that discussion [18] [19]. Of course, he argued against the DSM and offered his own publication as an alternative. He never mentioned that there was a conflict between the DSM and his employer, CAMH. (In the DSM, the APA categorizes infantilism under masochism. CAMH, or at least a few of Cantor's coworkers there, categorized it as a type of pedophilia.) After that exchange and the one at AN/I [20], Cantor's article went from being cited zero times in this article to being cited NINE (9) times - more than any other reference.
Prior to this growth opportunity, Cantor had himself used the DSM to define infantilism on Wikipedia [21].
Cantor et al's publication is the only one connecting the fringe theory by his coworkers Fruend and Blanchard to infantilism. Fruend and Blanchard did not mention infantilism when defining their fringe theory.
Cantor's involvement was instrumental in this conflict, enabling WLU to push the fringe theory of Cantor's coworkers. WLU might have conveniently forgotten this. If WLU wishes, I can detail where the remainder of those "several editors" made it clear that they hadn't read even the relevant pages of the DSM. BitterGrey ( talk) 01:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
WLU, please stop prodding others in hopes of getting a gang together (eg, one person, three pokes: [24] [25] [26]). I realize that all your "me and my gang vs. you and nobody agrees with you" claims seem silly since no one is voluntarily supporting you. However, this is not an excuse for votestacking. Wikipedia should be driven by sources, real (not votestacked) consensus, and policy.
The policy you are trying to dodge is the one that is intended to maintain a neutral point of view by holding that an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. Given the odds that you will again accuse me of distorting or misunderstanding, I'll include the exact quote: "Fringe theory in a nutshell: To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea." Or more specific to the CAMH fringe theory you are pushing " Fringe theories may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way.."
This article is about infantilism, not "masochistic qynephiles" or whatever they are called in the fringe theory you are trying to push, by edit warring to include it in THREE PLACES in the article. It seems plainly clear that there are no independent sources - so your fringe theory does not meet criteria for inclusion defined by the guideline. BitterGrey ( talk) 15:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Blanchard's fringe theory, about which no independent source is available and about which not even two CAMH sources agree, is now being pushed by WLU as both paraphilic infantilism and some other condition. This is a contradiction. BitterGrey ( talk) 15:59, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
It is claimed that citing Blanchard, Freund, Cantor and Barbaree's works is undue weight to appear three times. There is no consensus on what causes or contributes to paraphilic infantilism that I am aware of, merely a small number of theories. The DSM certainly does not (see discussion). Three sections have been tagged:
Within the supersection of "Relation to other conditions":
Paraphilic infantilism#Pedophilia - In this section, Blanchard and Freund are cited to make a distinction between pedophilia and paraphilic infantilism. This is two sentences, clearly attributed.
Paraphilic infantilism#Other conditions - In this section, a single sentence fragment is used to indicate some authors believe that PI is a form of autoeroticism akin to autogynaephilia. There are three sources, one of which is a letter to the editor not written by any of the four authors cited above. This clearly suggests that the theory has some respect and thus is not a fringe theory.
Within the supersection of "Causes":
Paraphilic infantilism#Erotic location target error - This is the place where Blanchard et al. get the most text as one of three proposed causes for PI. It is two sentences long, and there is an illegitimate citation of the DSM despite outside input noting it is not appropriate (noted above, but let's link again: discussion).
In none of these three cases is the citation lengthy. In the first and third it is attributed as an opinion. There does not seem to be any scholarly consensus for the cause, or relationship between PI and any other disorders. In all cases, alternatives are discussed which are of approximately the same length. All the sources are peer reviewed articles or a chapter in a scholarly book. In no case has any of the theories or links been criticized in the scholarly literature that I am aware of, and no such critical sources have been presented. Particluarly when there is a lack of discussion of PI overall (noted in references 12, 6 and 15) this is not undue weight. The sources are used for different purposes (in the first two sections to distinguish between PI and pedophilia and a proposed link to autoeroticism respectively; in the third section it proposes an etiology). Given the expertise of the scholars writing (all sexologists who study and publish on paraphilias), the reliability of the sources (Oxford University Press and the British Journal of Psychiatry), and the lack of a generally accepted etiology or link to other disorders in the psychiatric/psychological community in general, this is not undue weight. It is appropriate weight given to proposed explanations by experts publishing in respected venues. I propose the undue weight and contradiction tags be removed. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 16:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Freund and Blanchard (1993) referred to this characteristic as an erotic target location error...They interpret infantilism as an erotic target location error for persons whose erotic target is children, that is, infantilism as an autoerotic form of epdophilia.
WLU, please skip the accusations and claims of "subtle, nuanced issues" too mysterious for other editors to understand. The relevant Wikipedia policies are clear and simple. This is an article about infantilism, not whatever Freund and Blanchard discuss. In their article, they never referred to it as infantilism. The minimum standard for inclusion is set by the fringe theories guideline: " Fringe theories may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way." The essay on independent sources gives detail: "An independent source is a source that has no significant connection to the subject and therefore describes it from a disinterested perspective." Blanchard et all has a significant connection with Blanchard et all, and so is not independent. All five authors being cited are or were coworkers with Blanchard at CAMH.
WLU, if you have any independent sources for this fringe theory, why don't you share them? If you don't, accept that Wikipedia guidelines don't permit the inclusion of that fringe theory - much less in multiple places in the article. BitterGrey ( talk) 03:03, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
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While I'm neutral about a recent edit by an IP [44], I would have tended to keep it as a good faith edit, and to encourage new contributors. (Well, after removing the one extra coma for a coma-separated list, or switching the other comas to semicolons, that is.) WLU's version of the article could benefit from improvements by others: Improvements which won't occur if he continues to demonstrate a sense of ownership by reverting changes by others. This has been brought up before [45]. WLU's only response was to make accusations on another board, accusations that he then need to retract because they were based on assumptions of ill will [46] [47].)
WLU's given motivation for quickly reverting back to his own version, "they'd be diaper lovers, not infantilists", is not valid. The nearby link to diaper lovers redirects to the diaper fetish article, which defines it as "a sexual fetish." Those who "enjoy the diapers in a non-sexual way, and do not identify as adult babies" would then not be simply grouped as diaper fetishists.
WLU, I believe it is time you stepped back and let others edit. BitterGrey ( talk) 05:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
F&B's "Erotic target location errors in male gender dysphorics, paedophiles, and fetishists." is about, according to the very first line "A clinical series of male paedophiles..." The article doesn't mention "infantilism" at all. In contrast, "paedophile" or "paedophilic" occur 16 times, including the title. The article claims to be about pedophiles, not infantilists. The DSM and many, many other sources clearly differentiate between infantilism and pedophilia. Unless part of some assertion that infantilism is a form of pedophilia - an exceptional claim not supported by any independent sources - F&B doesn't belong here. BitterGrey ( talk) 22:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
The hyperfocus on the use of the word "pedophilia" while ignoring what the actual source intends is a blatant misrepresentation of the source. Freund & Blanchard use their case series to distinguish between pedophiles and infantilists, and Cantor, Blanchard & Barbaree is a secondary source that also makes that distinction while clearly referencing infantilists explicitly. Claiming the DSM discusses infantilists at all is flatly wrong, which you know, and which the community has clearly stated is wrong, twice here and here. Why you think I'd change my mind when there's no evidence of that is beyond me. FiachraByrne's comment is distinguishing between two groups of infantilists - those who do so because of masochism and those who do so because of an erotic target location error. The full quote is:
CB&B refer to Freund and Blanchard's 1993 article and state that, "They hypothesized that erotic target location was a basic dimension of sexual attraction, independent of the nature of the erotic target (object) itself. They interpreted infantilism as an erotic target location error for persons whose erotic target is children, that is, infantilism as an autoerotic form of pedophilia" (p.531). It would seem clear that CB&B characterise infantilism as an "erotic identity disorder" (p.530). That they wish to apply this concept as a general one across the paraphilias is obvious from their parallel treatment of transexualism (autogynaephilia) and those who self-image as amputees. Similary F&B assert that errors in erotic targeting are a basic feature of the paraphilias. They delineate a small sub-set of paedophiles who self-image as infants or children. The term they use as an analogue to gender identity disorder is "age identity disorder" and they obviously see it as structurally very similar (irrespective of the object of attraction) to the former condition. In these autoerotic disorders, they conjecture, the object of attraction becomes inverted and attached to the self. They clearly distinguish this paraphilia from what they term "masochistic gynaephiles" who although they fantasise about themselves as infants or little boys do so in fantasies involving adult women. They speculate that this group is fundamentally different from the previous one although the fantasies are similar as one use the fantasy to increase distance and difference from their sexual object (women) and the other use it to collapse difference (infants/children). As CB&B refer to infantilism as an autoerotic form of paedophilia it would seem that they consider it distinct from similar behaviour with a putatively different aetiology that is essentially masochistic.
But really if you want to know what FiachraByrne thinks now and of the current page, you'll have to ask her.
If your argument is that F&B should be removed from the page, it essentially changes nothing - Cantor, Barbaree & Blanchard can be used to verify the exact same points as Freund & Blanchard's 1993 paper. The first use in the pedophilia section states that pedophiles are attracted to kids while infantilists are attracted to the idea of being kids. The second use is redundant to two other citations, one of which is Cantor, Blanchard and Barbaree, a reliable source, and merely states that infantilism has been linked to autoeroticism and autogynephilia. So by all means, remove the sources and replace them with CBB, but there is no reason to change the text. And here is the long, pointless discussion I've been wanting to avoid, but what have you. Again, nothing changes. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 17:04, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, this is why I consider engaging with you on a talk page to be virtually worthless. CB&B is not a primary source, and CB&B and F&B both make it clear that infantilists are not pedophiles. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 13:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
In my opinion the 3O is unclear, there is no central question asked. In my opinion the issues are whether the sources in the removed text are reliable, relevant and appropriately summarized. The two sources are Cantor, Blanchard & Barbaree's chapter in the Oxford Textbook of Psychopathology, page 531 (available via google books preview here) and Freund & Blanchard's paper in the British Journal of Psychiatry, PMID 8481752 (which I can e-mail). A letter to the editor is also used as a citation [63], which I can also e-mail. I see the sources as reliable (published in a peer reviewed journal and a textbook by Oxford University Press), relevant (Cantor et al. discusses infantilism explicitly, Freund & Blanchard does so implicitly but is also explicitly cited by Cantor et al. as discussing infantilism - thus no original research is needed to verify the text, while the argument to exclude the paper is itself original research that ignores the relevant parts of the F&B case series - the comments section found on pages 561-2 where pedophiles and infantilsts are contrasted, and the discussion section found on page 562 where the theory of erotic target location errors is discussed - both from Freund & Blanchard 1993) and appropriately summarized (the sources clearly distinguish between pedophilles and paraphilic infantilists; the theory of erotic target location errors states that these are different points on a continuum - pedophiles desire child sexual partners, infantilists desire to be transformed into children and adult sexual partners who treat them as such). They are not a fringe theory, they are in my opinion an alternative theoretical formulation for a condition with very little research on it. The current version of the page does not feature these sources used in this manner, they were removed in this diff. These are the specific reference uses:
In an effort to keep this section short, I will stop here and not address the obvious behavioural issues. For me, the only issue that needs 3O input is whether the sources are adequate and appropriately summarized. I believe an appropriate summary can be found in the old version. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 00:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
In August 2011, WLU wrote "I've been ignoring Bitter[G]rey's constant claims of bias and his interpretations. Cuts down on the reading." [88] He has admitted to not considering my input in other places as well (eg [89] [90]...). Friday, WLU wrote "I'll continue to revert, but I have nothing to add to this talk page beyond the thousands of words I've already put in." As is clear from the archives, "thousands of words" is no exaggeration. There will still be the issue of the edit wars due to WLU's sense of ownership, of course. However, much of the time that would have been wasted preparing discussion points for WLU to ignore will be saved.
So can we get this (or maybe just the second part) written in stone? BitterGrey ( talk) 04:04, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Those looking over that page might notice that a few articles are heavily cited, even though they are given little weight elsewhere. This isn't was a consensus development, but the result of a determination of an editor to specifically cite CAMH sources: two papers written by four authors, all at the same facility, CAMH. For brevity, we'll call the papers F&B (Freund and Blanchard) and C,B,&B (Cantor, Blanchard, and Barbaree). This determination would also have driven the removal of references to the DSM, since the APA's established, consensus view as expressed in the DSM was in conflict with some of CAMH's conclusions. A number of the CAMH conclusions disagree with basic observations. This is why they have been largely disregarded as fringe theories in academia.
These fringe theories include:
A) Everyone expressing a sexual interest in diapers, but who doesn't want to be a baby, either has an incomplete form of infantilism or is hiding their desire to be a baby. (C,B,&B pg 531) That is, diaper fetishes do not exist.
B) Female gynephiles don't exist.(F&B 588) That is, women who prefer women - lesbians - do not exist.
C) Infantilism is an autoerotic form of pedophilia (C,B,&B pg 531).
With additional synthesis from WLU, that "masochistic qynephile"=infantilist, the fringe theories also include:
D) Infantilists ("masochistic qynephiles") are all heterosexual males or homosexual females (qyne = woman, wife). Homosexual male infantilists do not occur.
E) All infantilists will (if complete) want to be baby girls. A pedophilic masochistic qynephile with the "erotic target location error" hypothesized would desire to be the erotic target of a pedophilic qynephile; a little girl. (pedo- child, gyne- woman, wife)
These fringe theories, and the papers advocating them, should not be included.
1: Per the Fringe theories guideline: " Fringe theories may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way." Since this is not an article on these fringe theories but on paraphilic infantilism, the fringe theories may only be mentioned if connected by independent sources. C, B, B, and F are all colleagues: C, B(lanchard), &B is not independent of F&B(lanchard).
2: Without fudging the sources, mentioning fringe theory B would involve "pedophilia," an emotionally charged word. per MOS, " Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." One facility represented by four people, two sources is not "widely used."
3: Regarding fringe theory C, the C,B,&B paper only cites the one paper by F&B. As detailed in the essay on "Party and Person," first-party work without meta-analysis of multiple primary sources is itself just a primary source, and so C,B,&B is primary in this regard.
4: Also regarding fringe theory C; The text of F&B was so ambiguous that WLU thought "Freund & Blanchard explicitly states that the sexual focus is only superficially similar and discusses what distinguishes a pedophile from an infantilist (which they term masochistic gynaephile)." [96] until it was pointed out to him that his reading of F&B differed from the one presented in C, B. &B [97].
5: F&B is structured around novel categories labeled with neologisms. Neologisms should generally be avoided because their definitions tend to be unstable and many do not last. In particular, it does not use the term "paraphilic infantilism." Attempts to use C,B,&B to conclude that one or more specific neologisms is infantilism are WP:original research, since C,B,&B doesn't state which neologism(s) was intended to replace paraphilic infantilism, and so mean(s) the same thing. The assumption that it was the category that is least out-of-line from the DSM ("masochistic qynephile") is just that - an assumption.
6: C,B,&B cites Malitz and Tuchman & Lachman to support "There have also been reports of individuals ... who express no desire to seem like an infant (Malitz, 1966, Tuchman & Lachman, 1964)" However, they both mentioned regression. Malitz: "Dynamically the patient's diaper [fetish] appeared to symbolize a regression to infancy in order to reclaim the attention and love of his mother and to undo his displacement in her affections by his sister's birth." Tuchman & Lachman conclude "The regressive quality and symbolism of the behavior pattern suggest a schizophrenic mechanism." When challenged on this point, James Cantor commented only on the typography on the challenge, not the sexology. (Pate comments that neither Malitz's nor Tuchman & Lachman's patient's said they wanted to be a baby. While both authors mentioned regressive themes, neither documented the patient saying that he wanted to be a baby.)
7: C,B,&B intermixes psychosexual infantilism (Stekel) and paraphilic infantilism (defined by the DSM). Most cases of psychosexual infantilism did not involve either diapers or babyhood. While reasonable before the publication of DSM IIIR, modern sources should observe this distinction. IIIR was the first to include a definition of paraphilic infantilism, and was published in 1987.
8: CAMH has editor(s?) on it's payroll promoting themselves and CAMH interests on Wikipedia. Only one of these is (or at least was) open about his financial conflict of interest, and then only after it was discovered by another editor [98]. Relevant to this article, he argued for removing references to the DSM from this article and suggested his own writings and an alternative [99]. This opened the door for his own writing to be cited in this article NINE times, even though it conflicted with the established consensus opinion, expressed in the DSM.
Alternatives to the promotion of all of this fringe, uncertainly, and baggage, have been proposed and ignored. BitterGrey ( talk) 03:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Independent sources are those subject to independent scrutiny (i.e. peer review) and publication. This is met by any article published in a peer reviewed journal or a scholarly press book as all of Blanchard, Freund, Cantor and Barbaree's works cited here are. Blanchard may indeed have an interest in how his theory is published and summarized, but that doesn't mean he has control over publication - if his ideas were not considered respected or supported, the peer review process or editor would not publish it. Quoting a policy doesn't mean it applies correctly. I've posted a notice at the reliable sources noticeboard.
The DSM issue was discussed and closed, for the second time I will point to it: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_103#Lack_of_references_in_the_DSM. If you are claiming the APA source that portrays the "consensus view" on paraphilic infantilism is the DSM, you are wrong and your interpretation has never been supported by any other editor.
Blanchard, Freund, Cantor and Barbaree's works are not fringe theories. You have provided no reliable sources to substantiate this assertion, merely your own opinion. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 15:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Some relevant quotes from a now-archived discussion [104] about these sources.
The discussion itself was stretched out to twelve thousand words, perhaps expecting that fatigue would prevent others from becoming involved in the article, or doing more than just expressing their concerns on the noticeboard. Sadly, this effect was apparently achieved. BitterGrey ( talk) 06:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Is the following text adequately sourced by the attached sources?
“ | In 1993 sexologists Ray Blanchard and Kurt Freund published and discussed a series of case studies involving infantilists(1) and noted a distinction between them and pedophiles. While pedophiles were attracted to children (and objects related to childhood) due to the desire for a child sexual partner, infantilists imagined themselves as children and adopted the objects of childhood or infancy to increase the power difference between themselves and their preferred sexual partners of adult women, with whom they acted out masochistic fantasies.(2) | ” |
“ | An additional theory is that infantilism is an erotic identity disorder where the erotic fantasy is centered on the self rather than on a sexual partner and results from an erotic targeting location error where the erotic target was children yet becomes inverted. According to this model, proposed by Ray Blanchard and Kurt Freund in 1993, infantilism is a sexual attraction to the idea of the self being a child.(1) | ” |
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I believe the sources are adequate; to be used exactly as they are currently would require a minor modification of the rules since reference (2) does not use the word "infantilism", but does define the key term "masochistic gynaephiles" as individuals who "habitually imagine themselves as little boys or babies" (Freund & Blanchard 1993, p. 561) - the definiton of paraphilic infantilists. Ray Blanchard is also a co-author of both the first (2009) and second (1993) sources. The 1993 source most clearly makes the distinction between pedophiles and paraphilic infantilists, making it most valuable in explicitly verifying the text. Cantor, Blanchard & Barbaree can be used for a modified version of the above. The actual statement from Cantor et al (2008) page 531 is "erotic fantasies of persons with erotic identity disorders pertain less to any sexual partners and more to their transformed images of themselves; some authors refer to these paraphilias as autoerotic...[Freund and Blanchard] interpreted infantilism as an erotic target location error for persons whose erotic target is children, that is, infantilism as an autoerotic form of pedophilia." Within the theory of "erotic target location errors", that places pedophilia on opposite ends of a spectrum; on one end are pedophiles (who are sexually attracted to children and desire children as sexual partners). On the other end are paraphilic infantilists (who are sexually attracted to the idea of being, and being treated like an infant, and desire adult sexual partners who treat them like children). Both sources clearly distinguish pedophiles from paraphilic infantilists, even if their wording is unclear to those not familiar with the theory of erotic target location errors.
This has been discussed, at length, repeatedly, before ( FTN, FTN2, FTN 3, RSN 1, and RSN 2, which started this morning and lead to this post at the suggestion of Kmhkmh). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 20:06, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
“ | The above cases suggest a distinction between paedophiles with erotic imagery of themselves as children and masochistic gynaephiles with similar fantasies. This view is based on our analysis of the relationships between the infantile (or juvenile) self-imagery and the other elements of the total fantasy. With paedophiles, this imagery increases the subject's similarity to the sexual object (children). With masochistic gynaephiles, the same imagery increases the subject's difference from the sexual object (women), in particular, the difference between subject and object in power and control. This power differential, expressed in such fantasies by the imagined woman spanking or scolding the subject, is central to the masochistic arousal. A similar analysis can be applied to the fetish objects (usually nappies) used in masturbation by the two groups. With paedophiles, the fetish derives its power from its association with the sexual object, children. With masochistic gynaephiles,the fetish derives its power from association with the (fantasised) subject; it is an accoutrement to the role of the shamed, defenceless, punished little boy. In light of these differences, we believe that erotic fantasies of being a child probably have different aetiologies in the two groups. | ” |
I question the necessity of this second discussion. As we've seen, it appears doomed to merely rehash what was already said in the prior discussion. The core issue is still that F&Bs "Erotic target location errors in male gender dysphorics, paedophiles, and fetishists." doesn't mention infantilism (or any synonym used by any other reliable source). Infantilism was formally defined six years prior (1987 vs 1993), so the authors could have used the established term - but chose not to. Perhaps the most basic question is whether we feel the need to, as WLU requests, ignore all rules to use this source. (He called it a "minor modification." [127]) We can discuss WP:SYNTH and WP:OR at great length, but that doesn't mean that their results should be used in articles. F&B's first sentence claims that it is based on "[a] clinical series of male paedophiles..." and we have no reason, short of WP:SYNTH or WP:OR, to question that. If we can't trust what an article says, we shouldn't be using it.
F&B claims to be about pedophilies, not infantilists. if we consider it reliable in this, we should not use it because it is not relevant. Alternatively, if we don't consider it reliable in this, we should not use it because it is not reliable. BitterGrey ( talk) 00:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Given the last round of silence, the next step is to edit. Here is a step-by-step description of what I'm removing and why:
1) Two citations to Freund & Blanchard, 1993: The term infantilism was formally adopted by the APA in the DSM IIIR, in 1987. F&B choose not to use that term, or any established synonym, in their paper. The first line of the abstract describes it as being based on a sample of pedophiles. Thus, according to F&B, F&B isn't about infantilism. Counterarguments degenerated into an invitation for WP:OR, equating "masochistic gynephiles" with infantilism based on editor opinion. This invitation was repeated nine times [160] [161] [162] [163] [164] [165] [166] [167] [168]. These were answered with past quotes from the inviter showing that in other contexts, he held that infantilists were not generally masochistic: "the sexual fixations are different - for infantilists it is being treated and coddled like an infant; for masochists it is the humiliation of being forced to be treated like a baby. One is about being cared for, the other is about being humiliated.". That is, infantilists are not generally masochists, and so not generally "masochistic gynephilies." Please note that the inviter continues to reject the DSM's applicability to infantilism (eg. [169]), even though it actually uses the term infantilism and multiple independent sources refer to it as a source on infantilism. Neither of these are true of F&B.
2) Two citations to Cantor, Blanchard, and Barbaree, 2009: These are used in WP:SYNTH to apply specific comments in F&B regarding "masochistic gynephiles" to infantilists, even though CB&B never use the term "masochistic gynephiles." This synth is contradicted by an on-wiki comment by James Cantor: "I have never met a professional who would diagnose paraphilic infantilism as masochism. In my experience, it is diagnosed as 'paraphilia NOS (infantilism)'. The erotic focus of masochism is the pain and humiliation, whereas the erotic focus of paraphilic infantilism is being treated as a baby. That is, people with paraphilic infantilism do not experience the interaction as humiliating, just erotic; whereas the masochists do not experience the interaction as being "mothered" (rather, they are obeying a dominatrix who is belittling them, which they do experience as erotic)."
3) The paragraph previously supported only by #1 and #2.
4) One citation to Dickey, 2007: As a letter to the editor, this was never peer-reviewed.
5) The phrase previously supported only by #1, #2, and #4.
6) One citation to Cantor, Blanchard, and Barbaree, 2009: In the paragraph on ETLE, the source reads "[Freund and Blanchard] interpreted infantilism as an erotic target location error for persons whose erotic target is children, that is, infantilism as an autoerotic form of pedophilia." Paul B at RSN commented "It's blindingly obvious that Blanchard believes that infantalism is an 'Autoerotic form of pedophilia'. WLU says that 'Autoerotic form of pedophilia' is not the same thing as 'pedophilia'. Well, yes it is. That's what 'a form of pedophilia' means. I think this theory is utterly idiotic..." [170]. This is also an exceptional claim, since no other RS claims that infantilism is pedophilia.
The paragraph removed in #3 is a good illustration of how problematic the sources are: F&B was previously used in Wikipedia to support text stating that infantilists _are not_ pedophiles. CB&B mention F&B as claiming that infantilists _are_ pedophiles. Per AGF, we can't assume that this is an intentional act of misrepresentation, but evidence that F&B is obscure, and indirectly that CB&B's comment on F&B isn't that certain. This might be why Dickey doesn't cite F&B, even though they all work for the same facility, CAMH. (In spite of this, there is no overlap in the terminology of Dickey, CB&B, and F&B.)
Even in Cantor's on-wiki comment, he wrote that "In my experience, it is diagnosed as 'paraphilia NOS (infantilism)'." ...not pedophilia. It is possible that the fringe theory that infantilists are pedophiles is only held by Blanchard, and then only recently. Fringe theories should be included in articles (other than those about the fringe theory itself) "only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way." Additionally, Exceptional claims require "multiple, high-quality sources". This single, questionable source doesn't fit the bill.
7) The section previously supported only by #6. On Dec 6th, this section was weasel-worded to avoid removal due to the exceptional claim. However, the exceptional claim is in the only source, so removing it from the text would be a misrepresentation. Whether the text includes or does not include the exceptional claim, the end result is the same: The text should be removed. BitterGrey ( talk) 02:17, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
“ | I have no idea what your bizarre "sky is purple" analogy is supposed to imply. If you published the statement in the peer reviewed "Oxford Companion to the Sky" it would not affect the book's status as a reliable source by Wikipedia's rules, and it certainly would not make it into a "primary source". It would simply be a case in which a technically reliable source contained an error. It happens regularly. This whole dispute seems to me to be built around deep disingenuousness. It's blindingly obvious that Blanchard believes that infantalism is an "Autoerotic form of pedophilia". WLU says that "Autoerotic form of pedophilia" is not the same thing as "pedophilia". Well, yes it is. That's what "a form of pedophilia" means. I think this theory is utterly idiotic, and I can well understand why Bittergrey finds it deeply offensive. But since I don't get published in peer reviewed medical/psychological journals my opinion is irrelevant. Bittergrey should just accept that a theory which he understandably finds offensive does exist in the literature, and stop wikilawyering to keep it out. The claim that a textbook is a primary source because it is "written by people directly involved" is particularly ludicrous. By this interepretation every peer reviewed work would be a primary source, since experts are obviously directly involved with the subject (the policy passage in fact refers to direct involvement in an event which is being described). WLU should admit that the theory does indeed state that infantalism is a form of paedophila, and recognise that infantalists will find this view offensive. The article should discuss the theory to the extent of the weight it has in the literature as a whole. | ” |
— Paul B |
“ | Yes, I read the debate. Clearly F&B did not use that term, but equally clearly they had the phenomenon we now call "infantalism" in mind. That is specified in the later publication. Yes, they "all come from the same facilty". Clearly it is the specific theory of a particular researcher and his associates. I can see no logic to your suggestion that "CB&B" may be a "primary source" for this claim. It is in the nature of scholarly secondary sources that they sift through material and present models of it. That's what scholars do. It'as one of the very things that defines a secondary source. | ” |
— Paul B |
I have been watching this dispute. My view is that everything WLU has said is absolutely right and that everything Bittergrey has said is absolutely wrong. To Bittergrey I would ask: if you find WLU's alleged attacks on your sexuality to be offensive or distressing, why are you so eager to draw other editor's attention to them by linking to them? 203.118.187.209 ( talk) 22:08, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I am not WLU, and have never been in any kind of communication with him off-Wiki or even on-Wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.118.187.226 ( talk) 01:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
As we can see by contrasting a Sept 2011 version with an April 2012 version, almost all significant changes from WLU's version have been reverted by WLU.
WLU does permit some spelling corrections and the removal of images, but quickly and dogmatically reverts almost all significant changes, demonstrating an ongoing sense of ownership. This has discouraged other editors from contributing. Those that do engage in discussion (me) see their time wasted, because WLU doesn't consider the points raised - he just reverts.
WLU's sense of ownership has been discussed before [244] [245]. WLU's only counterpoint was an accusation raised at wikiquette assistance, which he needed to retract when it became clear that he had not even looked at my edit [246]. BitterGrey ( talk) 16:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia should follow the consensus, not merely the majority. However, in practice at least, it seems that only the position of 203.118.x.x matters here. Based on this, I would like to ask 203.118.x.x which case or cases in F&B he or she believes CB&B were referring to. (Again, F&B is Freund and Blanchard, and CB&B is Cantor, Blanchard, et al.) BitterGrey ( talk) 14:50, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
How can a consensus be built if editors won't engage in meaningful discussion? If 203.118.x.x was not acting as a puppet, he or she would have needed to become familiar with the sources before joining the edit war. For one who is familiar with the sources and not pushing a misrepresentation, the question I asked is a simple one. Furthermore, it is important since F&B never use the term "infantilism" or any established synonym, and so can only be used after WP:SYNTH with CB&B. I asked a simple question a month ago, and am still waiting for an answer. BitterGrey ( talk) 22:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Freund and Blanchard's paper never uses the term "infantilism," nor any established synonym. WLU does not deny this, but still fights to keep it and misrepresentations of its claims in three sections of this article. In contrast, WLU removed a section from the corrective rape article commenting "Janoff doesn't use the term "corrective rape" at all...". These two positions are incompatible with any singular interpretation of Wikipedia standards. WLU is fighting to implement his own double standard.
Currently the only active editor to support WLU's current position on F&B is WLU. WLU has gone through at least three positions on F&B, but persists in his fight.
Freund and Blanchard could have used the then-formally-recognized term "infantilism" to describe their few subjects, but chose to use other terms. They described their patients mostly as pedophiles. Applying F&B to infantilism, in spite of what F&B actually wrote, is WP:OR at best. It should be removed from all three sections, since Freund and Blanchard doesn't use the term "infantilism" at all... BitterGrey ( talk) 00:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)