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Some TV spots of the brief live-action Mrs Chen encounter in ATSV have listed the SSU as Earth-688. Obviously this is just referencing the unofficial Marvel Fandom designation of Earth-TRN688, but considering it’s now featured in an actual movie I’m wondering if we should update to reflect that. MarioProtIV ( talk/ contribs) 20:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
pretty much" is not enough of a confirmation, and since Marvel Studios has yet to confirm or acknowledge that the Spider-Verse is connected, I'm not confident it should be included here at this time. I'm pretty sure once Beyond, Madame Web, and the fourth MCU Spidey film release, we'll have a closer understanding of what's going on and how these all may be connected, but we do not know this solidly yet. Trailblazer101 ( talk) 08:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
With ATSV creating some more confusion with the whole universe designations, I have a suggestion that could be beneficial to readers and also not rely on pure WP:SYNTH. I believe that the article should be expanded into a broader sense for the multiverse on the film side of things, so as to differentiate this from the comics (which we have at Multiverse (Marvel Comics). This might seem silly at first, but ultimately I think we should be able to group all of the films that have connections to the multiverse (the MCU, SSU and Spider-Verse films) where there is a strong enough link to it. I can break this down below into seperate categories for better understanding:
The whole point of this is so we have all the proven multiverse connections in Marvel films under one umbrella similar to how we have Marvel Comics, and hopefully make some sense to readers, rather then excluding stuff because of companies having different ways their designations and stuff work. Will it be a bit messy? Maybe, but I can try to make it make sense as best as I can, and I’m going to be starting up a draft in my userspace to organize this all out. The finished product there will be what I present and hopefully make some users who will probably be against this - just based on the wording in this proposal - perhaps feel a bit more comfortable. That will take a few days though to set up. Here’s to maybe a better organized multiverse page? MarioProtIV ( talk/ contribs) 05:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
implies" it is in the Spider-Verse does not automatically mean it ought to be mentioned here, as this is strictly for the MCU multiverse, and not just a Marvel films multiverse. I do not think such an article dedicated to those needs to be separate from the comics multiverse article, though it should not be constructed within this one. The only mentions of the SV should remain "In other media", which should be just the mention of the throwaway line and maybe the archive footage, though I don't think the latter should be included. We can not connect the dots from the film to justify including universes not part of the MCU here via "
it gives further credence that the spiderverse realities exist in the same multiverse as the realities we've seen in the MCU" is not confirmed by Marvel Studios and no sources confirm this without speculating just as is being done here; that is still the definition of WP:SYNTH. Sony does not dictate what is in the MCU multiverse via a film with no Marvel Studios involvement. Trailblazer101 ( talk) 16:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
I think our readers should be able to be given the descriptions of these films while also making clear that their connection to the MCU has not yet been solidified but evidence points that way." If a connection to the MCU is not solidly confirmed, we can not state or imply this in this article. I fail to see how including that would not just be putting it up to our readers to make an assumption given it would be including a non-MCU multiverse thing in the MCU multiverse article.
The spiderverse realities cannot be in the comics page because they directly contradict the designations given." How so? Is there a specific consensus on the comics Multiverse article forbidding adaptational pieces to be noted. Also, we can just explain the Spider-Verse multiverse stuff at Spider-Man in film#Animated Spider-Verse. "
Given that it seems like a much better idea to merge these under a film multiverse page, because the evidence is there and (again) the writers themselves have stated that is their intention." No no no, we should not be merging all the multiverse film contents into one article. This is for the MCU multiverse only, with Venom being the only confirmed SSU character to appear in the MCU. Mrs. Chen did not appear in the MCU as there was no direct connection between her interaction with the Spot and with the MCU. The creatives at Sony have made parts of their intentions to connect these three together known, which is noted at the SSU article. Until we actually have an official connection between the MCU and the Spider-Verse, the SV should not be linked to the MCU multiverse here. WP:CRYSTAL falls into play for that. You have acknowledged yourself "
that their connection to the MCU has not yet been solidified but evidence points that way.", which is not definitive 100% and we still need proper reliable sourcing from the Marvel Studios side of things on what is in the MCU multiverse. "
Leaving it the way it is now would just create unnecessary confusion for those reading who’ve seen the film and are curious about the connection to the MCU." The only connection the Spider-Verse has to the MCU on a technicality is Mrs. Chen, who appeared in Across in the same universe as Venom, who appeared in NWH, plus the Garfield and Maguire archives, who appeared in NWH, but connecting the dots for those would still be SYNTH as no directly apparent connection to the MCU was made in Across or confirmed, ie showing Holland's Spidey in Across. Point being, there is nothing clear connecting the Spider-Verse to the MCU, and there should not be a separate Marvel film multiverse article as it is too soon for that to be made and would be made from connecting the dots, which we can't do Trailblazer101 ( talk) 19:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
In other mediasection, it shouldn't affect the rest of the article as the Spider-Verse, SSU, Tobey, and Andrew films are not canon to the MCU. You'll notice that § Peter-Two's reality and § Peter-Three's reality only discuss what is explictly shown and said in No Way Home, and not any plot information from non-MCU films, because we cannot affirmatively say that the events of those films happened to the characters we saw in No Way Home. Similarly, we cannot conclude that the events of the MCU, SSU, Tobey, and Andrew films are canon to the Spider-Verse franchise unless the creatives and/or studio say so ( WP:OR).As I mentioned earlier, Sony has been trying to build this massive Spider-Man multiverse for years, which I suspect Marvel Studios (relucantly) agreed to when they renewed their deal. I don't know if this multiverse/franchise/concept should have its own article one day, but if all we're operating with right now is Easter eggs and references, a hypothetical article would be a WP:FANCRUFTy creation that should promptly be taken to AfD. If we're just talking about article dedicated solely to the multiverse seen in the Spider-Verse franchise, that I also feel would be too FANCRUFTy and premature at this moment — we don't even have a Miles Morales article yet! But of course, you are free to start drafting in draftspace. InfiniteNexus ( talk) 05:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
I might be beating a dead horse, but one of the artisits behind the design/concept art for Donald Glover’s LA Prowler seems to have spoiled that it was indeed the MCU Prowler, as shown at the bottom with the tag saying “MCU Prowler”. I’m not sure if this changes anything but this makes the ATSV worlds as part of the larger MCU multiverse position stronger. MarioProtIV ( talk/ contribs) 17:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
@ Trailblazer101: The designations of 96283 and 120703 should be exceptions because since we are likely not going to see them again until (possibly) Beyond in 2025/26 Secret Wars in 2027/28, we aren’t likely to see an in-film confirmation. But given that they’re widely known as such and even Marvel.com itself mentions Raimi-verse as Earth-96283 in a 2020 post and not stuff from the marvel fandom wiki. And the official script gives them the name Raimi-verse and Webb-verse. This is almost the same things used to justify mentioning the 688 designation for SSU since ATSV designated it that. MarioProtIV ( talk/ contribs) 06:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
widely known" is a good rationale. I am not doubting their official usage by the Handbook, although I will stress that they have not been used or recognized by Marvel Studios, Sony, or the creatives of NWH, and we know what the Handbook uses can differ for Marvel Studios (ie 199999 vs 616). We can definitely mention the universe names as given in the script, although, as this article is specifically about the MCU multiverse, we should go by what is used in terms of that. We do not mention Earth-688 here, nor at the main MCU article or the MCU films list but solely at the SSU article and I believe at Across, for that reason (plus SSU and Across are both Sony-owned and controlled properties). Marvel Studios and Sony collectively dictate the MCU Spidey films content, and none of them have used those universe designations from what we are aware of. If a source confirms they do, then we can add it, although, the current sourcing is not a confirmation of its usage here by simply stating what the Handbook uses and I don't think an exception should be made for this as no source concretely backs it up. We cannot automatically assume that because they are the same universes that the same universe designation from the Marvel Comics side of things is used for the Marvel Studios films. That would be WP:SYNTHESIS. Trailblazer101 ( talk) 18:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't think the person who made the page notice understands what a multiverse is. The MCU should be regarded as a "mini-multiverse," with Earth-199999 as its primary timeline/continuity, not unlike how the "DCAU" is a mini multiverse with Earth 12 as its primary continuity. To refer to the MCU as if it is a reboot of all Marvel media is completely absurd. Bringing up the fact that the Prime Marvel Universe and Spider-verse films aren't canon to the MCU is absurd too. Because OBVIOUSLY that's how canon works. If something takes place in some universes but not one in particular, it's not canon. I think we need to rethink how we go about this and just stick to the handbook designation because it was first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HaydenTCEM ( talk • contribs) 13:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Multiverse (Marvel Cinematic Universe) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
Frequently asked questions
|
A fact from Multiverse (Marvel Cinematic Universe) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 28 July 2022 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
Some TV spots of the brief live-action Mrs Chen encounter in ATSV have listed the SSU as Earth-688. Obviously this is just referencing the unofficial Marvel Fandom designation of Earth-TRN688, but considering it’s now featured in an actual movie I’m wondering if we should update to reflect that. MarioProtIV ( talk/ contribs) 20:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
pretty much" is not enough of a confirmation, and since Marvel Studios has yet to confirm or acknowledge that the Spider-Verse is connected, I'm not confident it should be included here at this time. I'm pretty sure once Beyond, Madame Web, and the fourth MCU Spidey film release, we'll have a closer understanding of what's going on and how these all may be connected, but we do not know this solidly yet. Trailblazer101 ( talk) 08:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
With ATSV creating some more confusion with the whole universe designations, I have a suggestion that could be beneficial to readers and also not rely on pure WP:SYNTH. I believe that the article should be expanded into a broader sense for the multiverse on the film side of things, so as to differentiate this from the comics (which we have at Multiverse (Marvel Comics). This might seem silly at first, but ultimately I think we should be able to group all of the films that have connections to the multiverse (the MCU, SSU and Spider-Verse films) where there is a strong enough link to it. I can break this down below into seperate categories for better understanding:
The whole point of this is so we have all the proven multiverse connections in Marvel films under one umbrella similar to how we have Marvel Comics, and hopefully make some sense to readers, rather then excluding stuff because of companies having different ways their designations and stuff work. Will it be a bit messy? Maybe, but I can try to make it make sense as best as I can, and I’m going to be starting up a draft in my userspace to organize this all out. The finished product there will be what I present and hopefully make some users who will probably be against this - just based on the wording in this proposal - perhaps feel a bit more comfortable. That will take a few days though to set up. Here’s to maybe a better organized multiverse page? MarioProtIV ( talk/ contribs) 05:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
implies" it is in the Spider-Verse does not automatically mean it ought to be mentioned here, as this is strictly for the MCU multiverse, and not just a Marvel films multiverse. I do not think such an article dedicated to those needs to be separate from the comics multiverse article, though it should not be constructed within this one. The only mentions of the SV should remain "In other media", which should be just the mention of the throwaway line and maybe the archive footage, though I don't think the latter should be included. We can not connect the dots from the film to justify including universes not part of the MCU here via "
it gives further credence that the spiderverse realities exist in the same multiverse as the realities we've seen in the MCU" is not confirmed by Marvel Studios and no sources confirm this without speculating just as is being done here; that is still the definition of WP:SYNTH. Sony does not dictate what is in the MCU multiverse via a film with no Marvel Studios involvement. Trailblazer101 ( talk) 16:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
I think our readers should be able to be given the descriptions of these films while also making clear that their connection to the MCU has not yet been solidified but evidence points that way." If a connection to the MCU is not solidly confirmed, we can not state or imply this in this article. I fail to see how including that would not just be putting it up to our readers to make an assumption given it would be including a non-MCU multiverse thing in the MCU multiverse article.
The spiderverse realities cannot be in the comics page because they directly contradict the designations given." How so? Is there a specific consensus on the comics Multiverse article forbidding adaptational pieces to be noted. Also, we can just explain the Spider-Verse multiverse stuff at Spider-Man in film#Animated Spider-Verse. "
Given that it seems like a much better idea to merge these under a film multiverse page, because the evidence is there and (again) the writers themselves have stated that is their intention." No no no, we should not be merging all the multiverse film contents into one article. This is for the MCU multiverse only, with Venom being the only confirmed SSU character to appear in the MCU. Mrs. Chen did not appear in the MCU as there was no direct connection between her interaction with the Spot and with the MCU. The creatives at Sony have made parts of their intentions to connect these three together known, which is noted at the SSU article. Until we actually have an official connection between the MCU and the Spider-Verse, the SV should not be linked to the MCU multiverse here. WP:CRYSTAL falls into play for that. You have acknowledged yourself "
that their connection to the MCU has not yet been solidified but evidence points that way.", which is not definitive 100% and we still need proper reliable sourcing from the Marvel Studios side of things on what is in the MCU multiverse. "
Leaving it the way it is now would just create unnecessary confusion for those reading who’ve seen the film and are curious about the connection to the MCU." The only connection the Spider-Verse has to the MCU on a technicality is Mrs. Chen, who appeared in Across in the same universe as Venom, who appeared in NWH, plus the Garfield and Maguire archives, who appeared in NWH, but connecting the dots for those would still be SYNTH as no directly apparent connection to the MCU was made in Across or confirmed, ie showing Holland's Spidey in Across. Point being, there is nothing clear connecting the Spider-Verse to the MCU, and there should not be a separate Marvel film multiverse article as it is too soon for that to be made and would be made from connecting the dots, which we can't do Trailblazer101 ( talk) 19:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
In other mediasection, it shouldn't affect the rest of the article as the Spider-Verse, SSU, Tobey, and Andrew films are not canon to the MCU. You'll notice that § Peter-Two's reality and § Peter-Three's reality only discuss what is explictly shown and said in No Way Home, and not any plot information from non-MCU films, because we cannot affirmatively say that the events of those films happened to the characters we saw in No Way Home. Similarly, we cannot conclude that the events of the MCU, SSU, Tobey, and Andrew films are canon to the Spider-Verse franchise unless the creatives and/or studio say so ( WP:OR).As I mentioned earlier, Sony has been trying to build this massive Spider-Man multiverse for years, which I suspect Marvel Studios (relucantly) agreed to when they renewed their deal. I don't know if this multiverse/franchise/concept should have its own article one day, but if all we're operating with right now is Easter eggs and references, a hypothetical article would be a WP:FANCRUFTy creation that should promptly be taken to AfD. If we're just talking about article dedicated solely to the multiverse seen in the Spider-Verse franchise, that I also feel would be too FANCRUFTy and premature at this moment — we don't even have a Miles Morales article yet! But of course, you are free to start drafting in draftspace. InfiniteNexus ( talk) 05:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
I might be beating a dead horse, but one of the artisits behind the design/concept art for Donald Glover’s LA Prowler seems to have spoiled that it was indeed the MCU Prowler, as shown at the bottom with the tag saying “MCU Prowler”. I’m not sure if this changes anything but this makes the ATSV worlds as part of the larger MCU multiverse position stronger. MarioProtIV ( talk/ contribs) 17:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
@ Trailblazer101: The designations of 96283 and 120703 should be exceptions because since we are likely not going to see them again until (possibly) Beyond in 2025/26 Secret Wars in 2027/28, we aren’t likely to see an in-film confirmation. But given that they’re widely known as such and even Marvel.com itself mentions Raimi-verse as Earth-96283 in a 2020 post and not stuff from the marvel fandom wiki. And the official script gives them the name Raimi-verse and Webb-verse. This is almost the same things used to justify mentioning the 688 designation for SSU since ATSV designated it that. MarioProtIV ( talk/ contribs) 06:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
widely known" is a good rationale. I am not doubting their official usage by the Handbook, although I will stress that they have not been used or recognized by Marvel Studios, Sony, or the creatives of NWH, and we know what the Handbook uses can differ for Marvel Studios (ie 199999 vs 616). We can definitely mention the universe names as given in the script, although, as this article is specifically about the MCU multiverse, we should go by what is used in terms of that. We do not mention Earth-688 here, nor at the main MCU article or the MCU films list but solely at the SSU article and I believe at Across, for that reason (plus SSU and Across are both Sony-owned and controlled properties). Marvel Studios and Sony collectively dictate the MCU Spidey films content, and none of them have used those universe designations from what we are aware of. If a source confirms they do, then we can add it, although, the current sourcing is not a confirmation of its usage here by simply stating what the Handbook uses and I don't think an exception should be made for this as no source concretely backs it up. We cannot automatically assume that because they are the same universes that the same universe designation from the Marvel Comics side of things is used for the Marvel Studios films. That would be WP:SYNTHESIS. Trailblazer101 ( talk) 18:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't think the person who made the page notice understands what a multiverse is. The MCU should be regarded as a "mini-multiverse," with Earth-199999 as its primary timeline/continuity, not unlike how the "DCAU" is a mini multiverse with Earth 12 as its primary continuity. To refer to the MCU as if it is a reboot of all Marvel media is completely absurd. Bringing up the fact that the Prime Marvel Universe and Spider-verse films aren't canon to the MCU is absurd too. Because OBVIOUSLY that's how canon works. If something takes place in some universes but not one in particular, it's not canon. I think we need to rethink how we go about this and just stick to the handbook designation because it was first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HaydenTCEM ( talk • contribs) 13:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)