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The term Slavomacedonian ( Greek: Σλαβομακεδόνας, σλαβομακεδονικός) is a term used to refer to members of the ethnic Macedonian community. The Greek Helsinki Monitor reports that it was introduced and initially accepted by the community itself in order to overcome the confusion caused by the different and often conflicting uses of the name Macedonian. According to members of the community, however, its subsequent misuse by the Greek authorities in a "pejorative, discriminatory way" has led, to the "reluctance if not hostility of modern-day Macedonians of Greece (i.e. people with a Macedonian national identity) to accept it".{{ref|ghm}}
The term was used by the EBLUL to refer to both the Slavic speaking minority in northern Greece, and the population in the Republic of Macedonia. The term was dropped after complaints from ethnic Macedonian organisations. {{ref|eblul}}
If that article gets deleted, the info should be added to this page. Balkan Fever 07:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
In the 6th and 7th centuries AD, Slavic-speaking populations temporarily overturned Macedonia's Greek ethnic composition, and Slavic languages have been spoken in the area alongside Greek in the region ever since.
A not concluded period of 1500 years cannot be classified as temporary [1]
Alex Makedon ( talk) 11:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I see that my contribution was reverted by User:Tasoskessaris with the comment: Temporarily refers to the 6th and 7th centuries only. That's two hundred years not 1500. After the 7th century the population became predominantly Greek again and stayed predominant ever since
Now the Britannica link attached [2]from wich a part of the aticle is copy/pased does not use the term temporary. Instead it states that after the 6-7th century Slavic invasion most of the region subsequently fell under the sway of the first Bulgarian empire in the 9th century meaning that the region continued to be mainly inhabited with Slavs. Saint Cyril and Methodius born in Thessaloniki, Macedonia in the 9th century created the Cyrillic alphabet for the Slavofonic population living in the region. During the Middle ages this region was ruled by Bulgarian and Serbian empires. By the same Britannica Article the ensuing treaty in 1913 of the Balcan Wars assigned the southern half or “Aegean Macedonia” to Greece. Grece or the Hellenic population are not mentioned before 1913 so the Slavic population has lived in the Macedonia region ever since the 6th century, not as you are claiming just from the 6th till the 7th century. According to the same source the Slavofinic Macedonian language is spoken in Agean Macedonia ever since 6th century. Its clear that the Slavofonic population that inhabited the Macedonia region have 1500 years of continous history, language and culture. Alex Makedon ( talk) 22:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
To be precise the Britannica article reffers to the history and the inhabitants of the Macedonia (region) which covers parts of five Balkan Modern countries: Republic of Macedonia, Greece, Bulgaria and minor parts of Albania and Serbia. Infact in the chapter discussing the Balcan Wars it is stated The ensuing treaty in 1913 assigned the southern half, or “Aegean Macedonia,” to Greece and most of the northern half (“Vardar Macedonia”) to Serbia; a much smaller portion, “Pirin Macedonia,” went to Bulgaria. Alex Makedon ( talk) 02:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Since the geographical area Macedonia of Modern Greece is a part of the Macedonia region i found the above statement by Dr.K. ambiguous, so i needed to precise. Alex Makedon ( talk) 03:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Its strange why the word overturned sounds not appropriate all of a sudden, considering that it was on the article ever since 16 June 2006 [3] furthermore it is used in the Britannica Article, and i dont think they would use an inappropriate term. Alex Makedon ( talk) 11:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Polibiush wants this image in, AerospaceM and some IP from Athens want it removed? It was created by a Greek user based on an ethnologue map. What do others think about it? Balkan Fever 03:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
No, it hasn't. The map needs to be scrapped and redrawn from scratch, preferably according to more reliable sources. I've already pointed out the most glaring errors that need to be fixed. Kalamata, a major population centre, and Athens itself, as opposed to the surrounding Attica region, are not traditional Arvanitika-speaking areas, and Pomak and Turkish are spoken in Thrace, not eastern Macedonia. ·ΚέκρωΨ· ( talk) 02:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
These are very small errors, almost unnoticable with such a small map with low resolution. The original ethnologue map (the link is provided in the caption) do not have the mistakes you pointed out. Also in the caption, it is clarified that these are "approximate areas", meaning the areas shown in the map could be off by a couple of kilometers. The map is alright, no major problem here. Polibiush ( talk) 20:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
According to Roland Schmieger, [1]
“ | Apart from certain peripheral areas in the far east of Greek Macedonia, which in our opinion must be considered as part of the Bulgarian linguistic area (the region around Kavala and in the Rhodope Mountains, as well as the eastern part of Drama nomos), the dialects of the Slav minority in Greece belong to Macedonia diasystem. | ” |
Polibiush ( talk) 04:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay guys, I've redrawn that map. It's now closer to the original at Ethnologue. Comments welcome; it can still be modified fairly easily. commons:Image talk:Greece linguistic minorities.svg. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
(undent)
Someone should change Megleno-rumanian (242 google hits) to Megleno-Romanian (2,140) or Meglenitic (3,690). Balkan Fever 00:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The map still shows a significant chunk of Messenia as a traditional Arvanitic-speaking area. To the best of my knowledge, the Arvanites of Messenia are located in and around Ano Dorio, a part of the Triphylia area near the border with Elis, not in the large coloured area in the centre of the prefecture. The location of Pomak and Turkish still look too far west, and the size of the Moglenitic area is overblown considering the language is spoken only in six villages according to the relevant article. ·ΚέκρωΨ· ( talk) 02:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
You're probably right about the Pomak area, but I always thought it lay more directly north-northeast of Xanthi. Echinos is the main Pomak centre, so drawing the blob around that should do the trick. As for Turkish, the westernmost red blob should be moved to the east of the other so that it lies more substantially in Komotini. I agree that we should use more precise data where possible. ·ΚέκρωΨ· ( talk) 12:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
i dont't see any linguistic maps of the past and nowdays for turkey ,albania or FYROM, where many millions greeks,kurds vlachs etc have lived there for thousands years.. but instead of it you drew a map for some hundred(not millions)thousands guys that spoke an x language a long time ago... [unsigned]
Okay, once more, I'll explain why I personally prefer to have the label say "Macedonian Slavic" rather than simply "Slavic". "Slavic" (Slavika) may, for the Greek reader, be something like a proper name for that particular variety of Slavic they speak there. If it was just that, it would be fine. However, for the outside reader, "Slavic" is primarily a generic term for the whole language family, reaching all the way up to Siberia. Therefore, "Slavic" presents us with yet another disambiguation issue. We have another type of Slavic already in the map, the Pomak bit in Thrace (it doesn't matter whether we label that as Pomak or as Bulgarian, the problem is the same either way.) If the varieties in Macedonia are "Slavic", we must tell the reader what kind of Slavic. The most neutral way of doing that is "Macedonian Slavic", the Slavic spoken in Macedonia. Then, everybody can decide for themselves what national characteristics they associate with the "M" word. As I said, the only viable alternative would be to go straight for "M" alone, but I can see why that would meet with resistance here. "Slavic" alone may be what Ethnologue chose, for whatever reasons best known to them, but it would be poor service to our readers. And as I said above, I don't accept that just because we got the factual data from them forces us to stick with their terminology; using a source is not a suicide pact. Fut.Perf. ☼ 01:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
All I see is academic hypotheses, verbosely. That's too far from consensus. Self-identification it is. That, or double-standards. Niko Silver 13:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, "international English-speaking literature" for it, is limited to the two quotes already in the articles. It is expresely stated that those are hypotheses, and that the self-id name is Dopia. I challenge you to find one that doesn't. Niko Silver 13:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
So, how about the accurate " Eastern South Slavic"? And, why not, how about we go ahead and call it " Dopia"? (I'd be in for a move of that article too btw. I'm creating a redirect for now.) Niko Silver 14:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
We can have wikilinked texts in maps ( eg), but that's irrelevant indeed. Local name it is then. Thanks. Niko Silver 14:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Similar arguments were used for Macedonian (Slavic) vs Bulgarian. I don't know about the Asia Minor Greeks theory, all I know is how the current speakers call it. And that is undebatable by all scholars. What is debatable, is how close Dopia falls to either of the two very close languages up North. So we have a variation of a variation of a variation, that also happens to be a direct variation in some places. How can we assign a name of either to that? Niko Silver 15:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
NikoSilver, You have to be careful when you say "I know how the current speakers call it." Perhaps some of them do call it Dopia, but one thing is certain, they do not call it "Dopia" when speaking in their Slavic language. The word "Dopia" is only used when speaking in Greek. In their own language they call it "Makedonski", since "Dopia" is Greek word. Polibiush ( talk) 16:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Update: Actually, if we switch to the Euromosaic reports as our primary data source, we might be forced to merge the "Macedonian" and "Bulgarian/Pomak" blobs into a single category after all. In that case, we can switch to a label of "Slavic" as a cover term for both. Maybe that way the problem is avoided after all. Reason is, while all the literature I've seen agrees it is in principle possible to assign some subvarieties to "M" and others to "B", different sources draw the line differently. For instance, the Euromosaic report has a Slavophone corner straddling Serres and Drama prefectures, not shown in the Ethnologue map (and according to the report less vital than Western Macedonia), and it calles those varieties Bulgarian. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I made a second draft on the basis of the Euromosaic data. Much of it matches the Ethnologue data quite well. Where it does not, the trouble is, those reports just give you information like "12-14 X-speaking villages in prefecture Y". If you're lucky you get "in the east of prefecture Y" or "in eparchia Z". Not very exact, that is. So, I did a few very tentative blobs in a couple cases. What do you guys say, is that acceptable?
As for technicalities of how to handle the legends, or modifying the colour scheme or whatever, I'm open for suggestions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, should we represent Turkish in Kos and Rhodos? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:53, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks guys. About Ladino, it could be included simply for its historical significance, rather than its present-day demographic weight. As its presence is punctual, just in the city of Thessaloniki (I guess?), it wouldn't make for a colour blob, but perhaps some symbol, like a small star or circle. We could do it similarly for Turkish in Kos and Rhodos. Or does anybody know if there are specific geographical corners in those islands where Turkish is concentrated? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Arvanitika/Slav or Tsakonian are spoken by elderly people and so are Pontic.In fact where you put Slav speaking population there is a sea of a way more populous Pontic Greek language linguistic minority.
PS:None of the above mentioned languages is really spoken but if you want to show historical accuracy about were these almost dead languages were spoken then you are POV excluding the biggest linguistic minority by numbers after 1922. Eagle of Pontus ( talk) 09:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
So nowdays there are more than 2.500.000 greek speaking people to Macedonia and only few thousands(30.000+)who speak slav dialects mainly in northern florina(but few of them don’t have greek identity(ouranio toxo a slavskopian party took only 3.000 votes in Macedonia) Also greeks with one or two arvanites parents are about 200.000 all over the Greece.BUT only 30 thousands of them speak a language that is not teached by greek schools,arvanitika(I am arvanitis btw)..most of them are old people. Moreover more than 5.000.000 greek speaking people live in attiki (green coloured area) and about 500.000 migrant workers(Albanians,pakistans,Russians. Etc) who came there after 1991. This map is accurate only for western thraca!and probably its information are taken of propagandist books that speaks-propagandize of so-called “great albania”-“great Macedonia”etc
Ps:The 1904 Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha recorded 373,227 Greeks and 204,317 Bulgarians in the VILAYET(region) Selânik (Thessaloniki) alone, while it makes no mention of a Macedonian Slav ethnicity (which at the time was regarded as Bulgarian). According to the same census, Greeks were also dominant in the vilayet of Manastır (Bitola), counting 261,283 Greeks and 178,412 Bulgarians.So more than 500.000 were greek speaking people and about 100 thousands slav and vlach speaking with greek identity(as next census also shows) census in 1925 (after balkan wars and before civil war between communists and anticommunists in which more than 35 thousands slavs (and thousands greeks )left greece and came to communistic yugoslavia and soviet union after defeat etc ) a census that shows the number of greek speaking natives of the area ,slav or vlach speaking people with greek or bulgarian ,romanian identity,greek speaking(that came from anatolia),jews etc http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9766/ethnologicalcompositionqi2.jpg Population Exchange in Greek Macedonia, Oxford, Elizabeth Kontogiorgi, 2006 i have to notice also that many slavs were nazi's allies ,during world war 2 and german occupation of greece, with nationalist dreams of an"indepedent macedonia" (a purpose that never changed even afterwhile they joined democratic army) last but not least i dont see any data dealing with the map
Anyway ,sorry for my english.I hope you understood me :) bye! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.132.183 ( talk) 12:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the HRW block quote, which User:P m kocovski has apparently been adding to a host of articles. The material should be summarized and referenced appropriately if it is to be of any value. ·ΚέκρωΨ· ( talk) 08:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this, an important clarification needs to be made. Whatever the origins of Arvanitika, the Arvanites not only do not identify as Albanians, but find the label offensive. As the Helsinki source makes clear, they "loathe" its use. Language doesn't equal ethnic identity, and giving credence to the claims of Albanian nationalists that the Arvanites are really just a subgroup of ethnic Albanians is unhelpful. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· ( talk) 10:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The Hammond map does not have a colour code for the ethnicities. I suggest the full map, with colour code, is included, or to remove the map until this can be rectified. Politis ( talk) 17:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
From article: "Their properties were either confiscated, destroyed or taken over by relatives who identified as Greeks. Recently, this issue has brought some controversy because some elderly representatives of the Chams and their descendants are claiming their properties back from the Greek state while Greek descendants of Cham atrocities are also claiming compensation from Albania."
Could someone possibly cite this claim? -- PG-Rated ( talk) 03:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed "Distribution of races in the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor in 1922, Racial Map Of Europe by Hammond & Co." since it is inaccurate.
Since this was a map made before the population exchanges, all these errors shows its inaccurate and should be removed. Maktruth ( talk) 20:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Just a query Most Pomaks are fluent in their Pomak dialects
Their dialects are usually classified as dialects of Bulgarian
There dialects are always classified as Bulgarian, that is what they speak. Pomak Dialects, they speak bulgarian! Any Comments. P m kocovski ( talk) 12:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Pomaks consider their language to be Pomak, not Bulgarian but they are certainly no strangers to each other... (I think the official Slav Macedonian language is closer to Bulgarian than Pomak). There is even a Pomak manual to teach the language to thei children and it uses the Greek alphabet. Politis ( talk) 14:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
"Its neighbor Greece, with an ideological construct of a “100% homogeneity” to quote the Athens Journalists’ Union president among many others, is the other OSCE country besides Turkey that refuses to recognize the presence of ethno-national minorities, like Macedonians and Turks, while recognizing only one religious minority, the Muslims, as imposed by the Treaty of Lausanne. The latter are denied the right to call themselves and their associations Turks and Turkish (but allowed to call themselves and their groups Pomak or Roma). Restrictions of the freedom of association and expression of Macedonians and Turks have been criticized by ECRI, while CERD has appealed to Greece to respect self-identification and apply its General Recommendations VIII and XXIV (see above)." Mactruth ( talk) 00:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Aromanians are the biggest minority in Greece, but i see everybody ignores them.Most of the aromanians in Greece want minority status, but the aromanian societis , sponsored by the greek gouverment don't want this. Why do you consider aromanians greeks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camaradianis ( talk • contribs) 10:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I've reverted this section for three reasons: 1) Some of the facts are not even controversial (e.g. Greece is not alone in the EU to having stopped collecting ethnicity/religious data) 2) Most of the issues are already covered in Human rights in Greece 3) It was very poorly written -- Avg 21:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
AVG your revert is borderline to vandalism, if you consider that "some" of the facts are not controversal you can discuss about this facts alone not revert the whole section, if according to your POV the section is poorly written, contribute positively to wikipedia and enrich it.
1) id like to hear what countries in EU or in the world officially do not have any minorities!? I would like to hear what countries in the EU do not permit the expression of etchnicity or don't permit an ethcnic census? What countries in EU or the World take the religious appartenence or the native language as the etchnicity of a population? And how can all this not be highly controversal!?
2) Most of the issues are not already covered in Human rights in Greece, infact there is just one vague refference in a line about the limits on the ability of ethnic minority groups to self-identify. Human rights in Greece is a wider argument and the facts expressed in the section are specific to the Minorities in Greece article.
3) A pooly written section, its a pretty lame excuse for a revert.
I am reverting the selection since there is no objective reason this facts about the Greek Minorities to be omitted. Alex Makedon ( talk) 12:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
lol an unsigned 85.75.0.160 IP from Greece has instantly reverted my edit! no talk page refference of the revert, no reasons stated. wow if all vandals can do thingls like this to wiki it wont get far Alex Makedon ( talk) 14:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
There is no sense in writing about linguistic-minorities and religious-minorities, and not writing about etchnic minorities. Eg. we talk about an Albanian-speaking minority and an Albanian-cultural minority but not Albanian Etcnic Minority.
Id suggest to write sections about the different Etchnic Minorities, eg. Albanian Etcnic Minority, Turk Etcnic Minority, Vlach Etcnic Minority etc... and eventually in every minority section to add a linguistic, cultural and religious refference. Something like Ethnic minorities in Northern Ireland. what do you think about this? Alex Makedon ( talk) 12:49, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Trained linguists will note significant differences between the Macedonian and Bulgarian language. Despite some similarity like it can be found among languages from the same language group, there are stark differences. Key differences in alphabet, pronunciation, vocabulary and history of development. Bulgarian and Macedonian are as similar as Welsh and American English —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.82.229.184 ( talk) 01:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
The page is very outdated and typifies the Greek POV that there are no ethnic Minorities in the country. Therefore i am proposing to reshape the page to align with better parallel pages on wikipedia. I cannot really see why every time it is a greek related issue editing is so hard because of many users rigid way one sided way of looking at things. Proposal
anything else can go in to "Religion in Greece" and various other pages. We all know that the groups are clearly ethnic minorities and not "linguistic/cultural" ones as people would like us to believe. PMK1 ( talk) 01:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The term Slavomacedonian ( Greek: Σλαβομακεδόνας, σλαβομακεδονικός) is a term used to refer to members of the ethnic Macedonian community. The Greek Helsinki Monitor reports that it was introduced and initially accepted by the community itself in order to overcome the confusion caused by the different and often conflicting uses of the name Macedonian. According to members of the community, however, its subsequent misuse by the Greek authorities in a "pejorative, discriminatory way" has led, to the "reluctance if not hostility of modern-day Macedonians of Greece (i.e. people with a Macedonian national identity) to accept it".{{ref|ghm}}
The term was used by the EBLUL to refer to both the Slavic speaking minority in northern Greece, and the population in the Republic of Macedonia. The term was dropped after complaints from ethnic Macedonian organisations. {{ref|eblul}}
If that article gets deleted, the info should be added to this page. Balkan Fever 07:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
In the 6th and 7th centuries AD, Slavic-speaking populations temporarily overturned Macedonia's Greek ethnic composition, and Slavic languages have been spoken in the area alongside Greek in the region ever since.
A not concluded period of 1500 years cannot be classified as temporary [1]
Alex Makedon ( talk) 11:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I see that my contribution was reverted by User:Tasoskessaris with the comment: Temporarily refers to the 6th and 7th centuries only. That's two hundred years not 1500. After the 7th century the population became predominantly Greek again and stayed predominant ever since
Now the Britannica link attached [2]from wich a part of the aticle is copy/pased does not use the term temporary. Instead it states that after the 6-7th century Slavic invasion most of the region subsequently fell under the sway of the first Bulgarian empire in the 9th century meaning that the region continued to be mainly inhabited with Slavs. Saint Cyril and Methodius born in Thessaloniki, Macedonia in the 9th century created the Cyrillic alphabet for the Slavofonic population living in the region. During the Middle ages this region was ruled by Bulgarian and Serbian empires. By the same Britannica Article the ensuing treaty in 1913 of the Balcan Wars assigned the southern half or “Aegean Macedonia” to Greece. Grece or the Hellenic population are not mentioned before 1913 so the Slavic population has lived in the Macedonia region ever since the 6th century, not as you are claiming just from the 6th till the 7th century. According to the same source the Slavofinic Macedonian language is spoken in Agean Macedonia ever since 6th century. Its clear that the Slavofonic population that inhabited the Macedonia region have 1500 years of continous history, language and culture. Alex Makedon ( talk) 22:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
To be precise the Britannica article reffers to the history and the inhabitants of the Macedonia (region) which covers parts of five Balkan Modern countries: Republic of Macedonia, Greece, Bulgaria and minor parts of Albania and Serbia. Infact in the chapter discussing the Balcan Wars it is stated The ensuing treaty in 1913 assigned the southern half, or “Aegean Macedonia,” to Greece and most of the northern half (“Vardar Macedonia”) to Serbia; a much smaller portion, “Pirin Macedonia,” went to Bulgaria. Alex Makedon ( talk) 02:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Since the geographical area Macedonia of Modern Greece is a part of the Macedonia region i found the above statement by Dr.K. ambiguous, so i needed to precise. Alex Makedon ( talk) 03:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Its strange why the word overturned sounds not appropriate all of a sudden, considering that it was on the article ever since 16 June 2006 [3] furthermore it is used in the Britannica Article, and i dont think they would use an inappropriate term. Alex Makedon ( talk) 11:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Polibiush wants this image in, AerospaceM and some IP from Athens want it removed? It was created by a Greek user based on an ethnologue map. What do others think about it? Balkan Fever 03:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
No, it hasn't. The map needs to be scrapped and redrawn from scratch, preferably according to more reliable sources. I've already pointed out the most glaring errors that need to be fixed. Kalamata, a major population centre, and Athens itself, as opposed to the surrounding Attica region, are not traditional Arvanitika-speaking areas, and Pomak and Turkish are spoken in Thrace, not eastern Macedonia. ·ΚέκρωΨ· ( talk) 02:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
These are very small errors, almost unnoticable with such a small map with low resolution. The original ethnologue map (the link is provided in the caption) do not have the mistakes you pointed out. Also in the caption, it is clarified that these are "approximate areas", meaning the areas shown in the map could be off by a couple of kilometers. The map is alright, no major problem here. Polibiush ( talk) 20:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
According to Roland Schmieger, [1]
“ | Apart from certain peripheral areas in the far east of Greek Macedonia, which in our opinion must be considered as part of the Bulgarian linguistic area (the region around Kavala and in the Rhodope Mountains, as well as the eastern part of Drama nomos), the dialects of the Slav minority in Greece belong to Macedonia diasystem. | ” |
Polibiush ( talk) 04:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay guys, I've redrawn that map. It's now closer to the original at Ethnologue. Comments welcome; it can still be modified fairly easily. commons:Image talk:Greece linguistic minorities.svg. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
(undent)
Someone should change Megleno-rumanian (242 google hits) to Megleno-Romanian (2,140) or Meglenitic (3,690). Balkan Fever 00:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The map still shows a significant chunk of Messenia as a traditional Arvanitic-speaking area. To the best of my knowledge, the Arvanites of Messenia are located in and around Ano Dorio, a part of the Triphylia area near the border with Elis, not in the large coloured area in the centre of the prefecture. The location of Pomak and Turkish still look too far west, and the size of the Moglenitic area is overblown considering the language is spoken only in six villages according to the relevant article. ·ΚέκρωΨ· ( talk) 02:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
You're probably right about the Pomak area, but I always thought it lay more directly north-northeast of Xanthi. Echinos is the main Pomak centre, so drawing the blob around that should do the trick. As for Turkish, the westernmost red blob should be moved to the east of the other so that it lies more substantially in Komotini. I agree that we should use more precise data where possible. ·ΚέκρωΨ· ( talk) 12:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
i dont't see any linguistic maps of the past and nowdays for turkey ,albania or FYROM, where many millions greeks,kurds vlachs etc have lived there for thousands years.. but instead of it you drew a map for some hundred(not millions)thousands guys that spoke an x language a long time ago... [unsigned]
Okay, once more, I'll explain why I personally prefer to have the label say "Macedonian Slavic" rather than simply "Slavic". "Slavic" (Slavika) may, for the Greek reader, be something like a proper name for that particular variety of Slavic they speak there. If it was just that, it would be fine. However, for the outside reader, "Slavic" is primarily a generic term for the whole language family, reaching all the way up to Siberia. Therefore, "Slavic" presents us with yet another disambiguation issue. We have another type of Slavic already in the map, the Pomak bit in Thrace (it doesn't matter whether we label that as Pomak or as Bulgarian, the problem is the same either way.) If the varieties in Macedonia are "Slavic", we must tell the reader what kind of Slavic. The most neutral way of doing that is "Macedonian Slavic", the Slavic spoken in Macedonia. Then, everybody can decide for themselves what national characteristics they associate with the "M" word. As I said, the only viable alternative would be to go straight for "M" alone, but I can see why that would meet with resistance here. "Slavic" alone may be what Ethnologue chose, for whatever reasons best known to them, but it would be poor service to our readers. And as I said above, I don't accept that just because we got the factual data from them forces us to stick with their terminology; using a source is not a suicide pact. Fut.Perf. ☼ 01:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
All I see is academic hypotheses, verbosely. That's too far from consensus. Self-identification it is. That, or double-standards. Niko Silver 13:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, "international English-speaking literature" for it, is limited to the two quotes already in the articles. It is expresely stated that those are hypotheses, and that the self-id name is Dopia. I challenge you to find one that doesn't. Niko Silver 13:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
So, how about the accurate " Eastern South Slavic"? And, why not, how about we go ahead and call it " Dopia"? (I'd be in for a move of that article too btw. I'm creating a redirect for now.) Niko Silver 14:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
We can have wikilinked texts in maps ( eg), but that's irrelevant indeed. Local name it is then. Thanks. Niko Silver 14:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Similar arguments were used for Macedonian (Slavic) vs Bulgarian. I don't know about the Asia Minor Greeks theory, all I know is how the current speakers call it. And that is undebatable by all scholars. What is debatable, is how close Dopia falls to either of the two very close languages up North. So we have a variation of a variation of a variation, that also happens to be a direct variation in some places. How can we assign a name of either to that? Niko Silver 15:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
NikoSilver, You have to be careful when you say "I know how the current speakers call it." Perhaps some of them do call it Dopia, but one thing is certain, they do not call it "Dopia" when speaking in their Slavic language. The word "Dopia" is only used when speaking in Greek. In their own language they call it "Makedonski", since "Dopia" is Greek word. Polibiush ( talk) 16:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Update: Actually, if we switch to the Euromosaic reports as our primary data source, we might be forced to merge the "Macedonian" and "Bulgarian/Pomak" blobs into a single category after all. In that case, we can switch to a label of "Slavic" as a cover term for both. Maybe that way the problem is avoided after all. Reason is, while all the literature I've seen agrees it is in principle possible to assign some subvarieties to "M" and others to "B", different sources draw the line differently. For instance, the Euromosaic report has a Slavophone corner straddling Serres and Drama prefectures, not shown in the Ethnologue map (and according to the report less vital than Western Macedonia), and it calles those varieties Bulgarian. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I made a second draft on the basis of the Euromosaic data. Much of it matches the Ethnologue data quite well. Where it does not, the trouble is, those reports just give you information like "12-14 X-speaking villages in prefecture Y". If you're lucky you get "in the east of prefecture Y" or "in eparchia Z". Not very exact, that is. So, I did a few very tentative blobs in a couple cases. What do you guys say, is that acceptable?
As for technicalities of how to handle the legends, or modifying the colour scheme or whatever, I'm open for suggestions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, should we represent Turkish in Kos and Rhodos? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:53, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks guys. About Ladino, it could be included simply for its historical significance, rather than its present-day demographic weight. As its presence is punctual, just in the city of Thessaloniki (I guess?), it wouldn't make for a colour blob, but perhaps some symbol, like a small star or circle. We could do it similarly for Turkish in Kos and Rhodos. Or does anybody know if there are specific geographical corners in those islands where Turkish is concentrated? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Arvanitika/Slav or Tsakonian are spoken by elderly people and so are Pontic.In fact where you put Slav speaking population there is a sea of a way more populous Pontic Greek language linguistic minority.
PS:None of the above mentioned languages is really spoken but if you want to show historical accuracy about were these almost dead languages were spoken then you are POV excluding the biggest linguistic minority by numbers after 1922. Eagle of Pontus ( talk) 09:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
So nowdays there are more than 2.500.000 greek speaking people to Macedonia and only few thousands(30.000+)who speak slav dialects mainly in northern florina(but few of them don’t have greek identity(ouranio toxo a slavskopian party took only 3.000 votes in Macedonia) Also greeks with one or two arvanites parents are about 200.000 all over the Greece.BUT only 30 thousands of them speak a language that is not teached by greek schools,arvanitika(I am arvanitis btw)..most of them are old people. Moreover more than 5.000.000 greek speaking people live in attiki (green coloured area) and about 500.000 migrant workers(Albanians,pakistans,Russians. Etc) who came there after 1991. This map is accurate only for western thraca!and probably its information are taken of propagandist books that speaks-propagandize of so-called “great albania”-“great Macedonia”etc
Ps:The 1904 Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha recorded 373,227 Greeks and 204,317 Bulgarians in the VILAYET(region) Selânik (Thessaloniki) alone, while it makes no mention of a Macedonian Slav ethnicity (which at the time was regarded as Bulgarian). According to the same census, Greeks were also dominant in the vilayet of Manastır (Bitola), counting 261,283 Greeks and 178,412 Bulgarians.So more than 500.000 were greek speaking people and about 100 thousands slav and vlach speaking with greek identity(as next census also shows) census in 1925 (after balkan wars and before civil war between communists and anticommunists in which more than 35 thousands slavs (and thousands greeks )left greece and came to communistic yugoslavia and soviet union after defeat etc ) a census that shows the number of greek speaking natives of the area ,slav or vlach speaking people with greek or bulgarian ,romanian identity,greek speaking(that came from anatolia),jews etc http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9766/ethnologicalcompositionqi2.jpg Population Exchange in Greek Macedonia, Oxford, Elizabeth Kontogiorgi, 2006 i have to notice also that many slavs were nazi's allies ,during world war 2 and german occupation of greece, with nationalist dreams of an"indepedent macedonia" (a purpose that never changed even afterwhile they joined democratic army) last but not least i dont see any data dealing with the map
Anyway ,sorry for my english.I hope you understood me :) bye! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.132.183 ( talk) 12:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the HRW block quote, which User:P m kocovski has apparently been adding to a host of articles. The material should be summarized and referenced appropriately if it is to be of any value. ·ΚέκρωΨ· ( talk) 08:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this, an important clarification needs to be made. Whatever the origins of Arvanitika, the Arvanites not only do not identify as Albanians, but find the label offensive. As the Helsinki source makes clear, they "loathe" its use. Language doesn't equal ethnic identity, and giving credence to the claims of Albanian nationalists that the Arvanites are really just a subgroup of ethnic Albanians is unhelpful. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· ( talk) 10:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The Hammond map does not have a colour code for the ethnicities. I suggest the full map, with colour code, is included, or to remove the map until this can be rectified. Politis ( talk) 17:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
From article: "Their properties were either confiscated, destroyed or taken over by relatives who identified as Greeks. Recently, this issue has brought some controversy because some elderly representatives of the Chams and their descendants are claiming their properties back from the Greek state while Greek descendants of Cham atrocities are also claiming compensation from Albania."
Could someone possibly cite this claim? -- PG-Rated ( talk) 03:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed "Distribution of races in the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor in 1922, Racial Map Of Europe by Hammond & Co." since it is inaccurate.
Since this was a map made before the population exchanges, all these errors shows its inaccurate and should be removed. Maktruth ( talk) 20:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Just a query Most Pomaks are fluent in their Pomak dialects
Their dialects are usually classified as dialects of Bulgarian
There dialects are always classified as Bulgarian, that is what they speak. Pomak Dialects, they speak bulgarian! Any Comments. P m kocovski ( talk) 12:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Pomaks consider their language to be Pomak, not Bulgarian but they are certainly no strangers to each other... (I think the official Slav Macedonian language is closer to Bulgarian than Pomak). There is even a Pomak manual to teach the language to thei children and it uses the Greek alphabet. Politis ( talk) 14:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
"Its neighbor Greece, with an ideological construct of a “100% homogeneity” to quote the Athens Journalists’ Union president among many others, is the other OSCE country besides Turkey that refuses to recognize the presence of ethno-national minorities, like Macedonians and Turks, while recognizing only one religious minority, the Muslims, as imposed by the Treaty of Lausanne. The latter are denied the right to call themselves and their associations Turks and Turkish (but allowed to call themselves and their groups Pomak or Roma). Restrictions of the freedom of association and expression of Macedonians and Turks have been criticized by ECRI, while CERD has appealed to Greece to respect self-identification and apply its General Recommendations VIII and XXIV (see above)." Mactruth ( talk) 00:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Aromanians are the biggest minority in Greece, but i see everybody ignores them.Most of the aromanians in Greece want minority status, but the aromanian societis , sponsored by the greek gouverment don't want this. Why do you consider aromanians greeks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camaradianis ( talk • contribs) 10:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I've reverted this section for three reasons: 1) Some of the facts are not even controversial (e.g. Greece is not alone in the EU to having stopped collecting ethnicity/religious data) 2) Most of the issues are already covered in Human rights in Greece 3) It was very poorly written -- Avg 21:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
AVG your revert is borderline to vandalism, if you consider that "some" of the facts are not controversal you can discuss about this facts alone not revert the whole section, if according to your POV the section is poorly written, contribute positively to wikipedia and enrich it.
1) id like to hear what countries in EU or in the world officially do not have any minorities!? I would like to hear what countries in the EU do not permit the expression of etchnicity or don't permit an ethcnic census? What countries in EU or the World take the religious appartenence or the native language as the etchnicity of a population? And how can all this not be highly controversal!?
2) Most of the issues are not already covered in Human rights in Greece, infact there is just one vague refference in a line about the limits on the ability of ethnic minority groups to self-identify. Human rights in Greece is a wider argument and the facts expressed in the section are specific to the Minorities in Greece article.
3) A pooly written section, its a pretty lame excuse for a revert.
I am reverting the selection since there is no objective reason this facts about the Greek Minorities to be omitted. Alex Makedon ( talk) 12:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
lol an unsigned 85.75.0.160 IP from Greece has instantly reverted my edit! no talk page refference of the revert, no reasons stated. wow if all vandals can do thingls like this to wiki it wont get far Alex Makedon ( talk) 14:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
There is no sense in writing about linguistic-minorities and religious-minorities, and not writing about etchnic minorities. Eg. we talk about an Albanian-speaking minority and an Albanian-cultural minority but not Albanian Etcnic Minority.
Id suggest to write sections about the different Etchnic Minorities, eg. Albanian Etcnic Minority, Turk Etcnic Minority, Vlach Etcnic Minority etc... and eventually in every minority section to add a linguistic, cultural and religious refference. Something like Ethnic minorities in Northern Ireland. what do you think about this? Alex Makedon ( talk) 12:49, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Trained linguists will note significant differences between the Macedonian and Bulgarian language. Despite some similarity like it can be found among languages from the same language group, there are stark differences. Key differences in alphabet, pronunciation, vocabulary and history of development. Bulgarian and Macedonian are as similar as Welsh and American English —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.82.229.184 ( talk) 01:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
The page is very outdated and typifies the Greek POV that there are no ethnic Minorities in the country. Therefore i am proposing to reshape the page to align with better parallel pages on wikipedia. I cannot really see why every time it is a greek related issue editing is so hard because of many users rigid way one sided way of looking at things. Proposal
anything else can go in to "Religion in Greece" and various other pages. We all know that the groups are clearly ethnic minorities and not "linguistic/cultural" ones as people would like us to believe. PMK1 ( talk) 01:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)