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The history at Basho Matsuo says
suggesting that the following was already redundant when the following msg was placed. -- Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)
Why has this been moved to here [bolded after the fact by Jerzy] from Matsuo Basho? I'm pretty sure that "Matsuo Basho" is the more common order of his names when he's referred to in English, and a basic principle of naming articles here is to put things under the most common English-language name. I'll move it back unless there's a reason not to. -- Camembert
I was interested in this murky history bcz of the reference to Mastuo Munefusa with the surname spelled differing from "Matsuo" by a two-letter transposition. I intended to leave a note here asking for help in being sure it's a typo, but i now think that even if it were intended, the author's failure to note Basho's trick in choosing a slightly different surname, and the effort i've made re the history, would entitle me to risk that error immediately. [smile] -- Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)
Tnx! -- Jerzy 20:33, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)
In another matter, i'm leaving it thus:
Note this is agnostic abt the time relation between becoming a recluse and gaining the rep. At least the second is usually an extended process, so anything more precise might be unjustified, but i'm ignorant. Perhaps someone knows at least whether reclusion (a word?) fell during his rise. -- Jerzy 20:33, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)
Regarding "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Tokugawa Shogunate" I suggest "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Edo period"; any comments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.1.54.253 ( talk) 13:01, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
User:Fg2 has posed an interesting question—do we need to talk about the change from haikai to haiku in the Matsuo Basho article? I think that since for both Japanese and non-Japanese Basho is known almost exclusively as a haiku poet, that something must be said in the article, and probably in the intro, about the fact that in his lifetime he was known as a haikai no renga poet, but today he is known as a haiku poet. BlankVerse ∅ 01:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I've fiddled with the use of italics. I haven't been thorough, and I'm not fully happy with what I've done, but here's the reasoning.
Putting Japanese aside, there is indeed an English custom by which the title of any poem (in English) of any length is given in italics. But this is not common. If we want to be persnickety about parentheses, then The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) implies that there's one, bilingual title, and thus is wrong. The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) [note vertical parentheses!] is OK, but it's slightly harder for me to scan than is "The Narrow Road to the Deep North" (Oku no Hosomichi); I therefore recommend that italics are reserved for book titles, as well of course as unassimilated foreign words. (Of course if a published book titled The Narrow Road to the Deep North is cited, it should be cited in italics.) -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We read: ". . . which is dominated by the concept of wabi-sabi: the identification of man with nature." While I'm no expert in this kind of thing, I'm surprised by the idea that there is a single concept of wabi-sabi (I'd thought that they were two words, each expressing a concept or cluster of concepts) and that this amalgam means "the identification of man with nature". Did something get garbled here? -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Peer review suggested that the level of prose needed major improvement more than anything else, so I just rewrote the entire article. Apparently I used the same sources as the previous version, because not much changed by way of facts. Ashibaka tock 23:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The kanji for Bashō are provided, as they should be; but those for his other names are not, which seems a pity. -- Hoary 08:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
What's the distinction between "Bibliography" and "References"?
Three of the items in the short bibliography are translations of Oku no hosomiti. Are these the best three translations? Or are they the translations that have the best additional editorial comments about Bashō's work in general or his life? Also, I'm a bit surprised not to see within the "Bibliography" a reference to some separate, scholarly study (perhaps in an academic journal) of Bashō's work as a whole, of some particular aspect of Bashō's work, or of Bashō's biography. There must be scads of the stuff in Japanese, but I'd expect also a certain amount in English. (Maybe what's written in "References" is relevant here.)
NB I'm definitely not angling for "bibliography-stuffing": the mindless addition of impressive-sounding references. No: in the past I've seen lucid, approachable, informative articles (as opposed to "deconstructionist" and similar drivel created merely to impress other academics) about writers in such journals as Monumenta Nipponica, and I guessed that there would be good stuff about Bashō too.
We read that Bashō was at one time (ambiguously) interested in homosexuality; presumably this is somehow relevant to Louis Crompton's Homosexuality and Civilization. But I'd be surprised if such a grandly titled book by somebody with a non-Japanese name would be a good source on Bashō. (I don't know it; apologies to Crompton if I mischaracterize it.) Does Crompton cite any research on Bashō? If so, it might be better to cite that directly.
In general, then, I'd be inclined to add a short annotation to each entry in the bibliography and references -- and also of course to indicate which slightly (or more than slightly) controversial claim within the article came from which source. -- Hoary 08:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
This article needs a copyedit very badly. Too many words and expressions are used to describe even the little things. There are too many assumptions in the article. Which means that if sources agree then say so and source the information given. Lincher 16:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Examples of it:
And these are assumptions that need to be addressed by both views or some words need to be changed to confer a less point-of-vue orientation unless they are inline cited.
And there are many other instances throughout the text that I didn't point out. Lincher 11:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Ashibaka tock 03:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
There have been various attempts to link to a site offering Oku no hosomichi in Spanish and Japanese. These have been reverted as "spam", which seems an undeservedly harsh term. I don't see why this article needs a link to a Spanish translation, but right now it doesn't have a link to a Japanese version. On the other (third?) hand, I'd be inclined to think that there's a scholarly Japanese site with a Japanese version -- but characteristically, I'm too lazy to investigate this thoroughly. Comments from one or two people who (unlike me) are well informed about Oku no hosomichi would be welcome. -- Hoary 10:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The summary for this recent edit, part of which I am about to revert, is footnotes are in Harvard format.
This is bizarre, in that there are no footnotes.
Let's take "footnotes" to be a sleepy mistake for "references" or "citations". It's still bizarre, as a grand total of one assertion is referenced: "He had a great many visitors, and a male disciple by the name of Tsuboi Tokoku (坪井 杜国) who may have become his lover, although there does not seem to have been any contemporary interest in their relationship. (Crompton 2003)"
Even this looks pretty feeble, as "Crompton 2003" is an entire book that's purportedly about "homosexuality and civilization" in general and thus is unlikely to devote many words to Bashō. Why no page number(s)? Moreover, my suspicions about the value of Crompton's work, expressed above months ago, seem simply to have been ignored. (And finally, I'm puzzled by what seems to be a bit of an obsession in WP articles about unconfirmed rumors of bisexuality, which often [as here] aren't shown to have any significance even if true.)
Let's return to the article. It's bristling with assertions. Where do they come from, or where may one check to see that they also appear in a reliable source? My guess is that they come from Ueda's books Matsuo Bashō and Bashō and His Interpreters, but this is not made clear. Neither is the relationship between "References" and "Bibliography".
The {{citations missing}} flag, which I am about to add, should removed when useful citations are added, and not before. -- Hoary 02:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about that. It just annoyed me that the only contributions made to my article have been vandalism and an uninformative pastel box. Ideally, I would have more than 2 sources and footnotes would be both helpful and necessary, but Mr. Ueda was the only author I could find in the Boston Public Library. Ashi b aka tock 23:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Several of his students compiled quotations from him about his own poetry
It might be useful to give some of these quotations, as it is otherwise almost impossible to judge their nature. Shinobu 03:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I note that this article appears to have some references and a bibliography. That's good. But it would be better if facts in the article were cited inline using <ref>. Shinobu 05:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
User Shii's rudely worded removal of text today in violation of WP:OWN has been undone-you'll have to come up with something better than "my article" for a reason. This is nobody's article, and everyone's. Chris 21:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I read:
Even if these assertions are true (and no evidence is presented), none of this tells me anything about Basho except that he's at least moderately well known (which is obvious from other phenomena such as the number of editions of his works). It struck me as trivia, and I therefore removed it. -- Hoary 06:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I have studied Basho. I have studied Japanese history, literature, and a whole bunch of other crap. I have lived in Japan. I have seen references to Basho's having been a ninja numerous times in numerous places, both as a part of my studies as well as directly from relatively learned Japanese people. I put in a nice section on this, which, as I noted is also included on wikipedia entries on Basho in other languages, as well as supplying a reference, only to have it ripped out unceremoniously as "tosh". 204.15.3.5 17:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
"Because they were well disguised, some have even suggested Matsuo Bashō, a traveling poet, was actually a ninja employed by the shōgun to keep a watch over daimyō, and that haiku he published were really secret codes telling other ninja some unknown secrets. This is a view dismissed by almost all historians." [1]
"The bus to Kisakata, the following day, took us through emerald glens. Someone said Basho allegedly embarked on his Oku no Hosomichi odyssey because he was really a ninja and was on an intelligence-gathering mission for the Tokugawa shogunate. I laughed at the thought of a ninja weeping, as the sentimental poet often described himself doing." [2]
"Some people, though, have tried to read even more into Basho’s life and work. In recent times, a bizarre theory has spread. It claims that Basho was actually a ninja spy for the shogunate, sent to Tohoku to report on any unrest that might be fermenting in the provinces; accordingly, his haikus are supposed to be coded missives. There’s no real evidence for this, but some of the arguments are intriguing. The conspiracy theorists point to the fact that Basho covered 2500km on foot in 150 days (sometimes 50km a day) at the ripe old age of 46; only certain ninja, they say, were able to accomplish this, using methods of running and walking that used minute amounts of energy. He was also able to gain access to high-level feudal territory, apparently impossible for ordinary people. Adding fuel to the rumours is the undeniable fact of the poet’s early employment history (many ninja were also samurai), as well as the nature of his birthplace, in the Iga province – home of the famous Iga Ninja school." [3]
To do the IP justice, I don't think he has suggested that he subscribes to the notion that Bashō was a ninja. He does, however, believe that other people do subscribe to this notion; moreover, that these people are sufficiently numerous or well-read for the belief to be notable. (Compare the popular Japanese belief in a blood-type "theory" of personality: Complete bollocks, of course, but the fact that people believe it is itself of some note; it even gets its own article here. And of course the simple souls who earnestly compile en:WP articles on aidoru tarento etc dutifully add this "information" to them.) Further, the IP did adduce the Sellars quote.
I am delisting this article as a GA because on the fact that there are inline citations, failing 2b, "factually accurate and verifiable" under the good article criteria ( WP:WIAGA). Wizardman 21:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Use of Ueda's translations of Bashō hokku here looks like a straightforward copyvio. Is there some reason to believe this isn't the case?
--
Yumegusa (
talk) 13:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Gwern. Though I've come across positions conflicting with your interpretation elsewhere in WP (no, I don't remember where), I'm happily assured now.
--
Yumegusa (
talk) 17:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
My recent edit to make Bashō appear in categories (such as Japanese poets) under B (rather than M for Matsuo)(viz. {{DEFAULTSORT:Basho, Matsuo}}) has been undone. This seems absurd since the poet is universally known by his pseudonym Bashō (or Basho) rather than his family name Matsuo. MOS:JP does not appear to address the issue directly, but I have raised the question on its associated Talk page. I'd be grateful for any clarification/explanation of policy or further discussion, there. Thanks -- Yumegusa ( talk) 13:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I've opened a discussion at Talk:Basho regarding that dab page and whether 'Basho' should link to it or should redirect to this article. All interested editors are invited to participate.-- Yumegusa ( talk) 17:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I wonder about the recent addition of "The Essential Haiku" to the list in the Translations section. Upto this point, it has been limited to translations of Bashō only, rather than collections which include his work among others. The list could get extremely long and unwieldy if it was to include everything that happens to include him. Thoughts, anyone? -- Yumegusa ( talk) 17:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
In the article section Oku no Hosomichi, we read, "The first edition was published posthumously in 1702" for which I have requested a cite, while under "List of works" we are told that it was published in 1694, with a ref to the 1948 Japanese-language Kokusai Bunka Shinkōkai (国際文化振興会). Puzzlingly, there is no mention of publication date in the main article Oku no Hosomichi. Any clarification would be welcome. -- Yumegusa ( talk) 09:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I added a translated works but I am struggling to find the ISBN. Any suggestions? TheTallSarge ( talk) 00:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Should his poems be uploaded to wikicommons. They are after all hundreds of years old and well past copyright laws. Ink Falls ( talk) 14:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I see huge problems with the way Bashō's name is handled in this article:
In sum, the whole thing is confusing, because Japanese and English norms and standards are being used at the same time and not explained sufficiently well. Might someone please address this issue as soon as possible? I just thought I'd speak my mind and ask nicely before personally dealing with (at least) the third point.
•
H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈
{KLAT} • 21:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but is there a reason the haiku are formatted like this?
Instead of something like this?
toshi kurenu kasa kite waraji hakinagara |
another year is gone a traveler's shade on my head, straw sandals at my feet |
Would anybody else prefer a different format? AerobicFox ( talk) 06:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
In Edo period, it was customary to write haiku in one line, as the photo of this page [4] shows. Three-line format is of modern origin.-- 116.80.246.192 ( talk) 15:03, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
I edited this Because in Japanese language is written following. When he was 13 years old his father died and his elder brother took the house. From little age he was sdudied that Life is Painful.Basho (not his real name)was a servant at the samurai family Yoshitada, taking care of senior of Yoshitada Kitamura Gin who was two years older him. His boss was lover of cicada singing and poetry. After his death in 1666 Basho moved to the another city doing construction job. Haikago ( talk) 14:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
I found this phrase confusing
Bashō traveled alone, off the beaten path, that is, on the Edo Five Routes, which in medieval Japan were regarded as immensely dangerous
Did he travel off the Edo Five Routes? Or did he travel on them, but they were still dangerous? If he traveled on them, then "off the beaten path" isn't the right phrase, even if they were dangerous.
I commented out the "Influences=" parameter to suppress the warning message informing reader that {{ Infobox writer}} does not use this paramater (any longer).
Influences= Imagism, Beat Generation; Robbie Basho, Steffen Basho-Junghans
-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 01:35, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
At the time of writing, there is a request for clarification on this sentence:
"In 1526, two of Bashō's hokku were printed in a compilation."
Have I misunderstood, or is this a typo? Bashō was not born until 1644. 165.142.249.81 ( talk) 06:23, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
For the recently closed requested move, please see Talk:Basho (disambiguation)#Requested move 30 June 2020. P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 21:26, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Here in Japan they are generally called haiku now in the 21st century, though as pointed out in the article haiku originate in the starting verse of linked verses (renga) or hokku. After this introduction however, when referencing Basho's poetry the word hokku continues to be used. This seems to me to be inappropriate. Timtak ( talk) 01:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Matsuo Bashō has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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The history at Basho Matsuo says
suggesting that the following was already redundant when the following msg was placed. -- Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)
Why has this been moved to here [bolded after the fact by Jerzy] from Matsuo Basho? I'm pretty sure that "Matsuo Basho" is the more common order of his names when he's referred to in English, and a basic principle of naming articles here is to put things under the most common English-language name. I'll move it back unless there's a reason not to. -- Camembert
I was interested in this murky history bcz of the reference to Mastuo Munefusa with the surname spelled differing from "Matsuo" by a two-letter transposition. I intended to leave a note here asking for help in being sure it's a typo, but i now think that even if it were intended, the author's failure to note Basho's trick in choosing a slightly different surname, and the effort i've made re the history, would entitle me to risk that error immediately. [smile] -- Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)
Tnx! -- Jerzy 20:33, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)
In another matter, i'm leaving it thus:
Note this is agnostic abt the time relation between becoming a recluse and gaining the rep. At least the second is usually an extended process, so anything more precise might be unjustified, but i'm ignorant. Perhaps someone knows at least whether reclusion (a word?) fell during his rise. -- Jerzy 20:33, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)
Regarding "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Tokugawa Shogunate" I suggest "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Edo period"; any comments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.1.54.253 ( talk) 13:01, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
User:Fg2 has posed an interesting question—do we need to talk about the change from haikai to haiku in the Matsuo Basho article? I think that since for both Japanese and non-Japanese Basho is known almost exclusively as a haiku poet, that something must be said in the article, and probably in the intro, about the fact that in his lifetime he was known as a haikai no renga poet, but today he is known as a haiku poet. BlankVerse ∅ 01:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I've fiddled with the use of italics. I haven't been thorough, and I'm not fully happy with what I've done, but here's the reasoning.
Putting Japanese aside, there is indeed an English custom by which the title of any poem (in English) of any length is given in italics. But this is not common. If we want to be persnickety about parentheses, then The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) implies that there's one, bilingual title, and thus is wrong. The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) [note vertical parentheses!] is OK, but it's slightly harder for me to scan than is "The Narrow Road to the Deep North" (Oku no Hosomichi); I therefore recommend that italics are reserved for book titles, as well of course as unassimilated foreign words. (Of course if a published book titled The Narrow Road to the Deep North is cited, it should be cited in italics.) -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We read: ". . . which is dominated by the concept of wabi-sabi: the identification of man with nature." While I'm no expert in this kind of thing, I'm surprised by the idea that there is a single concept of wabi-sabi (I'd thought that they were two words, each expressing a concept or cluster of concepts) and that this amalgam means "the identification of man with nature". Did something get garbled here? -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Peer review suggested that the level of prose needed major improvement more than anything else, so I just rewrote the entire article. Apparently I used the same sources as the previous version, because not much changed by way of facts. Ashibaka tock 23:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The kanji for Bashō are provided, as they should be; but those for his other names are not, which seems a pity. -- Hoary 08:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
What's the distinction between "Bibliography" and "References"?
Three of the items in the short bibliography are translations of Oku no hosomiti. Are these the best three translations? Or are they the translations that have the best additional editorial comments about Bashō's work in general or his life? Also, I'm a bit surprised not to see within the "Bibliography" a reference to some separate, scholarly study (perhaps in an academic journal) of Bashō's work as a whole, of some particular aspect of Bashō's work, or of Bashō's biography. There must be scads of the stuff in Japanese, but I'd expect also a certain amount in English. (Maybe what's written in "References" is relevant here.)
NB I'm definitely not angling for "bibliography-stuffing": the mindless addition of impressive-sounding references. No: in the past I've seen lucid, approachable, informative articles (as opposed to "deconstructionist" and similar drivel created merely to impress other academics) about writers in such journals as Monumenta Nipponica, and I guessed that there would be good stuff about Bashō too.
We read that Bashō was at one time (ambiguously) interested in homosexuality; presumably this is somehow relevant to Louis Crompton's Homosexuality and Civilization. But I'd be surprised if such a grandly titled book by somebody with a non-Japanese name would be a good source on Bashō. (I don't know it; apologies to Crompton if I mischaracterize it.) Does Crompton cite any research on Bashō? If so, it might be better to cite that directly.
In general, then, I'd be inclined to add a short annotation to each entry in the bibliography and references -- and also of course to indicate which slightly (or more than slightly) controversial claim within the article came from which source. -- Hoary 08:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
This article needs a copyedit very badly. Too many words and expressions are used to describe even the little things. There are too many assumptions in the article. Which means that if sources agree then say so and source the information given. Lincher 16:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Examples of it:
And these are assumptions that need to be addressed by both views or some words need to be changed to confer a less point-of-vue orientation unless they are inline cited.
And there are many other instances throughout the text that I didn't point out. Lincher 11:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Ashibaka tock 03:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
There have been various attempts to link to a site offering Oku no hosomichi in Spanish and Japanese. These have been reverted as "spam", which seems an undeservedly harsh term. I don't see why this article needs a link to a Spanish translation, but right now it doesn't have a link to a Japanese version. On the other (third?) hand, I'd be inclined to think that there's a scholarly Japanese site with a Japanese version -- but characteristically, I'm too lazy to investigate this thoroughly. Comments from one or two people who (unlike me) are well informed about Oku no hosomichi would be welcome. -- Hoary 10:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The summary for this recent edit, part of which I am about to revert, is footnotes are in Harvard format.
This is bizarre, in that there are no footnotes.
Let's take "footnotes" to be a sleepy mistake for "references" or "citations". It's still bizarre, as a grand total of one assertion is referenced: "He had a great many visitors, and a male disciple by the name of Tsuboi Tokoku (坪井 杜国) who may have become his lover, although there does not seem to have been any contemporary interest in their relationship. (Crompton 2003)"
Even this looks pretty feeble, as "Crompton 2003" is an entire book that's purportedly about "homosexuality and civilization" in general and thus is unlikely to devote many words to Bashō. Why no page number(s)? Moreover, my suspicions about the value of Crompton's work, expressed above months ago, seem simply to have been ignored. (And finally, I'm puzzled by what seems to be a bit of an obsession in WP articles about unconfirmed rumors of bisexuality, which often [as here] aren't shown to have any significance even if true.)
Let's return to the article. It's bristling with assertions. Where do they come from, or where may one check to see that they also appear in a reliable source? My guess is that they come from Ueda's books Matsuo Bashō and Bashō and His Interpreters, but this is not made clear. Neither is the relationship between "References" and "Bibliography".
The {{citations missing}} flag, which I am about to add, should removed when useful citations are added, and not before. -- Hoary 02:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about that. It just annoyed me that the only contributions made to my article have been vandalism and an uninformative pastel box. Ideally, I would have more than 2 sources and footnotes would be both helpful and necessary, but Mr. Ueda was the only author I could find in the Boston Public Library. Ashi b aka tock 23:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Several of his students compiled quotations from him about his own poetry
It might be useful to give some of these quotations, as it is otherwise almost impossible to judge their nature. Shinobu 03:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I note that this article appears to have some references and a bibliography. That's good. But it would be better if facts in the article were cited inline using <ref>. Shinobu 05:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
User Shii's rudely worded removal of text today in violation of WP:OWN has been undone-you'll have to come up with something better than "my article" for a reason. This is nobody's article, and everyone's. Chris 21:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I read:
Even if these assertions are true (and no evidence is presented), none of this tells me anything about Basho except that he's at least moderately well known (which is obvious from other phenomena such as the number of editions of his works). It struck me as trivia, and I therefore removed it. -- Hoary 06:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I have studied Basho. I have studied Japanese history, literature, and a whole bunch of other crap. I have lived in Japan. I have seen references to Basho's having been a ninja numerous times in numerous places, both as a part of my studies as well as directly from relatively learned Japanese people. I put in a nice section on this, which, as I noted is also included on wikipedia entries on Basho in other languages, as well as supplying a reference, only to have it ripped out unceremoniously as "tosh". 204.15.3.5 17:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
"Because they were well disguised, some have even suggested Matsuo Bashō, a traveling poet, was actually a ninja employed by the shōgun to keep a watch over daimyō, and that haiku he published were really secret codes telling other ninja some unknown secrets. This is a view dismissed by almost all historians." [1]
"The bus to Kisakata, the following day, took us through emerald glens. Someone said Basho allegedly embarked on his Oku no Hosomichi odyssey because he was really a ninja and was on an intelligence-gathering mission for the Tokugawa shogunate. I laughed at the thought of a ninja weeping, as the sentimental poet often described himself doing." [2]
"Some people, though, have tried to read even more into Basho’s life and work. In recent times, a bizarre theory has spread. It claims that Basho was actually a ninja spy for the shogunate, sent to Tohoku to report on any unrest that might be fermenting in the provinces; accordingly, his haikus are supposed to be coded missives. There’s no real evidence for this, but some of the arguments are intriguing. The conspiracy theorists point to the fact that Basho covered 2500km on foot in 150 days (sometimes 50km a day) at the ripe old age of 46; only certain ninja, they say, were able to accomplish this, using methods of running and walking that used minute amounts of energy. He was also able to gain access to high-level feudal territory, apparently impossible for ordinary people. Adding fuel to the rumours is the undeniable fact of the poet’s early employment history (many ninja were also samurai), as well as the nature of his birthplace, in the Iga province – home of the famous Iga Ninja school." [3]
To do the IP justice, I don't think he has suggested that he subscribes to the notion that Bashō was a ninja. He does, however, believe that other people do subscribe to this notion; moreover, that these people are sufficiently numerous or well-read for the belief to be notable. (Compare the popular Japanese belief in a blood-type "theory" of personality: Complete bollocks, of course, but the fact that people believe it is itself of some note; it even gets its own article here. And of course the simple souls who earnestly compile en:WP articles on aidoru tarento etc dutifully add this "information" to them.) Further, the IP did adduce the Sellars quote.
I am delisting this article as a GA because on the fact that there are inline citations, failing 2b, "factually accurate and verifiable" under the good article criteria ( WP:WIAGA). Wizardman 21:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Use of Ueda's translations of Bashō hokku here looks like a straightforward copyvio. Is there some reason to believe this isn't the case?
--
Yumegusa (
talk) 13:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Gwern. Though I've come across positions conflicting with your interpretation elsewhere in WP (no, I don't remember where), I'm happily assured now.
--
Yumegusa (
talk) 17:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
My recent edit to make Bashō appear in categories (such as Japanese poets) under B (rather than M for Matsuo)(viz. {{DEFAULTSORT:Basho, Matsuo}}) has been undone. This seems absurd since the poet is universally known by his pseudonym Bashō (or Basho) rather than his family name Matsuo. MOS:JP does not appear to address the issue directly, but I have raised the question on its associated Talk page. I'd be grateful for any clarification/explanation of policy or further discussion, there. Thanks -- Yumegusa ( talk) 13:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I've opened a discussion at Talk:Basho regarding that dab page and whether 'Basho' should link to it or should redirect to this article. All interested editors are invited to participate.-- Yumegusa ( talk) 17:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I wonder about the recent addition of "The Essential Haiku" to the list in the Translations section. Upto this point, it has been limited to translations of Bashō only, rather than collections which include his work among others. The list could get extremely long and unwieldy if it was to include everything that happens to include him. Thoughts, anyone? -- Yumegusa ( talk) 17:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
In the article section Oku no Hosomichi, we read, "The first edition was published posthumously in 1702" for which I have requested a cite, while under "List of works" we are told that it was published in 1694, with a ref to the 1948 Japanese-language Kokusai Bunka Shinkōkai (国際文化振興会). Puzzlingly, there is no mention of publication date in the main article Oku no Hosomichi. Any clarification would be welcome. -- Yumegusa ( talk) 09:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I added a translated works but I am struggling to find the ISBN. Any suggestions? TheTallSarge ( talk) 00:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Should his poems be uploaded to wikicommons. They are after all hundreds of years old and well past copyright laws. Ink Falls ( talk) 14:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I see huge problems with the way Bashō's name is handled in this article:
In sum, the whole thing is confusing, because Japanese and English norms and standards are being used at the same time and not explained sufficiently well. Might someone please address this issue as soon as possible? I just thought I'd speak my mind and ask nicely before personally dealing with (at least) the third point.
•
H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈
{KLAT} • 21:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but is there a reason the haiku are formatted like this?
Instead of something like this?
toshi kurenu kasa kite waraji hakinagara |
another year is gone a traveler's shade on my head, straw sandals at my feet |
Would anybody else prefer a different format? AerobicFox ( talk) 06:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
In Edo period, it was customary to write haiku in one line, as the photo of this page [4] shows. Three-line format is of modern origin.-- 116.80.246.192 ( talk) 15:03, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
I edited this Because in Japanese language is written following. When he was 13 years old his father died and his elder brother took the house. From little age he was sdudied that Life is Painful.Basho (not his real name)was a servant at the samurai family Yoshitada, taking care of senior of Yoshitada Kitamura Gin who was two years older him. His boss was lover of cicada singing and poetry. After his death in 1666 Basho moved to the another city doing construction job. Haikago ( talk) 14:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
I found this phrase confusing
Bashō traveled alone, off the beaten path, that is, on the Edo Five Routes, which in medieval Japan were regarded as immensely dangerous
Did he travel off the Edo Five Routes? Or did he travel on them, but they were still dangerous? If he traveled on them, then "off the beaten path" isn't the right phrase, even if they were dangerous.
I commented out the "Influences=" parameter to suppress the warning message informing reader that {{ Infobox writer}} does not use this paramater (any longer).
Influences= Imagism, Beat Generation; Robbie Basho, Steffen Basho-Junghans
-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 01:35, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
At the time of writing, there is a request for clarification on this sentence:
"In 1526, two of Bashō's hokku were printed in a compilation."
Have I misunderstood, or is this a typo? Bashō was not born until 1644. 165.142.249.81 ( talk) 06:23, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
For the recently closed requested move, please see Talk:Basho (disambiguation)#Requested move 30 June 2020. P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 21:26, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Here in Japan they are generally called haiku now in the 21st century, though as pointed out in the article haiku originate in the starting verse of linked verses (renga) or hokku. After this introduction however, when referencing Basho's poetry the word hokku continues to be used. This seems to me to be inappropriate. Timtak ( talk) 01:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)