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fix and correct a big mistake in the kurds page

The page currently describes Kurds as an "Iranian ethnic group," which is not correct. The Kurds are a distinct ethnic group with their own language, culture, and history, and they should not be solely categorized as Iranian. I kindly request that the page be updated to reflect this distinction more accurately. A more appropriate description could be "Kurds are a West Asian ethnic group native to a region known as Kurdistan, which spans southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria." Thank you for considering this request. I appreciate the hard work you do to maintain the accuracy and integrity of Wikipedia. Best regards,

Jami Jamilmajid3 ( talk) 03:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I am writing to address an important issue concerning the portrayal of the Kurdish people on the Wikipedia page dedicated to them. The current description labels the Kurds as an "Iranian ethnic group," which inaccurately represents their distinct identity. The Kurds possess a unique linguistic, cultural, and historical heritage, distinguishing them as a separate ethnic group. Their ancestral homeland, Kurdistan, extends across parts of southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria. I respectfully request an update to the page to more accurately depict the Kurds' identity. A suggested revision could be: "Kurds are a West Asian ethnic group indigenous to a region known as Kurdistan, spanning across several countries including southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria."

regards, Jami Majid Jamilmajid3 ( talk) 03:23, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

As of now, the article uses the label "Iranic ethnic group", not "Iranian ethnic group". Also, the current lead sentence does not say nor imply that Kurds do not have a distinct identity or are not a separate ethnic group.
One may argue (and which is also my personal opinion) that the geographic label "West Asian" is more helpful for the general reader than the label "Iranic" that emphasizes the wider linguistic, cultural, and historical affliations of the Kurds, but a discussion in Nov/Dec 2023 has shown that there is no consensus for such a change. – Austronesier ( talk) 12:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Agreed. West Asian seems more appropriate than Iranic. 70.29.13.119 ( talk) 04:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
agree, because we are not Iranian ReShan1956 ( talk) 09:28, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply

1st The Kurds are not "Iranic ethnic group" but they are "West Asian ethnic group native to a region known as Kurdistan, which spans southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria"

Sources: The Kurds: A Concise Handbook" by Mehrdad Izady. In this book, Izady explores the unique aspects of Kurdish culture, history, and language, distinguishing them from their neighbors, including the Iranians.

Another source is "The Kurds: A People in Search of Their Homeland" by Kevin McKiernan. This book provides an overview of Kurdish history and the struggle for a distinct Kurdish identity, including their differences from the Iranian people.

2nd The Kurdish Language is not "Western Iranian branch of the Iranian languages" but The Kurdish people speak Kurdish languages, which are divided into different dialects such as Sorani and Kurmanji, each with its own unique accents and variations

Sources: The Kurds: A Modern History" by Michael M. Gunter: This book provides a detailed account of Kurdish history, politics, and society, highlighting their distinct ethnic identity separate from Iranians, Turks, and Arabs.

"A People Without a State: The Kurds from the Rise of Islam to the Dawn of Nationalism" by Michael Eppel: This book explores the historical background of the Kurdish people, their struggles for autonomy, and their unique cultural and linguistic identity.

"Kurdish Culture and Society: An Annotated Bibliography" by Lokman I. Meho and Kelly Maglaughlin: This bibliography provides an extensive list of resources on Kurdish culture, language, and history, offering insights into their distinct identity.

"The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society" edited by Sebastian Maisel: This encyclopedia covers various aspects of Kurdish life, including their languages, cultural practices, and social structures, highlighting their uniqueness as an ethnic group.

172.103.196.12 ( talk) 16:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Dispute: Kurds as an ethnic Ethnic Group.

Hello,

I would like to raise a concern regarding the description of Kurds in the article. The page currently describes Kurds as an "Iranic ethnic group," which I believe is not accurate. the Kurds distinct ethnic group with their own unique language, culture, and history.

Kurds inhabit a region known as Kurdistan, which spans across southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria. This geographical distribution and their distinct identity suggest that Kurds should not be solely categorized as Iranian.

I kindly request that the page be updated to reflect this distinction more accurately. A more appropriate description could be:

"Kurds are a West Asian ethnic group native to a region known as Kurdistan, which spans southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria."

This change would provide a more comprehensive understanding of the Kurdish identity and their geographical distribution.

Thank you for considering this modification.

Jamilmajid3 ( talk) 19:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply

First of all, don't add disputed-tags to talk pages. The way you used the tags indicated to readers that the accuracy of what you wrote is disputed. That was hardly your intention. Second, we go by reliable sources. Your suggestion is to change a text based on the terminology of reliable sources to a text based on your preferences. That is not how Wikipedia works. Jeppiz ( talk) 20:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
there is 100 of evidences that we are indigenous people from Kurdistan ReShan1956 ( talk) 09:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Jamilmajid3: This is spam at this rate. Kindly refrain from creating multiple sections for the same topic where you ask the same thing (I already merged your multiple sections here [1]). Please also read WP:SOAPBOX, WP:JDLI, WP:FORUM and the previous consensus [2]. HistoryofIran ( talk) 22:35, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I've seen several pages where they write correct history. Please don't spread wrong information. We are indigenous ethnic groups and are not from Iran. ReShan1956 ( talk) 09:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Looks like there is some brigading occurring. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 12:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ HistoryofIranHistoryofIran,
I understand that there are guidelines and policies to follow on Wikipedia, and I respect the importance of maintaining the integrity of the encyclopedia. However, I believe that our discussions are a genuine attempt to ensure the accuracy and representation of the Kurdish people on Wikipedia. I kindly request that we continue this conversation with a focus on the content and sources, without perceiving each discussion or edit as spam or a threat. Our goal is to contribute positively to the article and reach a consensus that reflects the most accurate information based on reliable sources. Thank you for your understanding. 172.103.196.12 ( talk) 22:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@172.103.196.12: I'll keep it short and only answer to your second question from 23 March 2024. You say: The Kurdish Language is not "Western Iranian branch of the Iranian languages", even though we have multiple sources in various articles to support this well-known fact. Kurdish is an Indo-European language and belongs to its Iranian branch (or "Iranic" if that's more palatable to you). Denying this is linguistic flat-earthism.
So do these sources that you mention above (Gunter, Eppel, Meho & Maglaughlin, Maisel) belong to some alternative scholarly universe where this classification is rejected? No, claiming otherwise would mean slandering these academics. But their concern is not historical linguistics, so chances are high that they probably don't bother to delve into the question of the linguistic affiliation because it's off-topic to their discussion. Lack of mention does not imply rejection.
Please make yourself familar with at least some basic facts about language families before you go on to mechanically repeat that The Kurdish Language is not "Western Iranian branch of the Iranian languages". Thank you. – Austronesier ( talk) 17:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

[1]

According to recent research of Palaeo/Archaeo-genetics and DNA Genealogy, forefathers of Kurds were in their earliest traceable origins mainly descendants of Near Eastern and Eurasian indigenous aboriginal peoples, predominantly oldest Neolithic farmers and shepherds who cultivated areas of the Northern Fertile Crescent ca. 10,000-5,000 B.C.E. During the last millennia B.C.E. these aboriginal Neolithic forefathers of Kurds were linguistically Indoiranianized by emigrating militarily organized elites from Central Asia

Kurds are traditionally regarded as Iranians and of Iranian origin, and therefore as Indo-Europeans, mainly, because they speak Iranian. This hypothesis is largely based on linguistic considerations and was predominantly developed by linguists. In contrast to such believes, newest DNA-research of advanced Human Anthropology indicates, that in earliest traceable origins, forefathers of Kurds were obviously de-scendants of indigenous (first) Neolithic Northern Fertile Crescent aborigines, geographically mainly from outside and northwest of what is Iran of today in Near East and Eurasia. Oldest ancestral forefathers of Kurds were millennia later linguistically Iranianized in several waves by militarily organized elites 2A02:3102:4162:AC:248D:F799:F704:35F5 ( talk) 22:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

  1. ^ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265947486_The_Origin_of_Kurds
Stop creating more and more threads, this is what, the eight one? Next time you will be reported. If you bothered to look into the previous discussion as you had been advised, you would have know this exact source was already discussed. I'm removing this section and merging it into the current one. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 23:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Kurds are not Iranic people. There is a very significant misleading and misinformation on the identity of the Kurdish people. Please re-consider your resources and edit them properly. Mehtap Leyla Turanalp Uysal ( talk) 19:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC) reply

  •  Not done Malformed request without sources. Duplicates discussion above. Discuss with reliable sources in the above section and gain WP:CONSENSUS for change. Currently the consensus of reliable sources does not support this change.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Map

@ Lionel Cristiano, I want to let you know that the WP:BURDEN is on you to provide the sources for the map on Wikimedia Commons. See WP:OR and WP:RS. It is clear that the map doesn't reflect what is on this article. Please self-revert and start a discussion on this talk page per WP:BRD instead of restoring your unsourced insertion. Thank you. Aintabli ( talk) 14:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hello @ Aintabli, there is map diaspora in all races. I made the map based on the resources here. If u think it's wrong, I can edit it again, but it would be wrong to delete the map completely. Lionel Cristiano ? 14:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Lionel Cristiano
  • there is map diaspora in all races.
Frankly, that doesn’t justify adding an unsourced map cross-wiki which disrupts the core verifiability policy of Wikipedia.
  • I made the map based on the resources here.
The content on an article can change, and when it comes to such a map, it is imperative to be clear about the sources, which should not be difficult to find. On the other hand, I am repeating myself but the map doesn’t reflect the article fully.
  • If u think it's wrong, I can edit it again
My opinions are irrelevant other than it being totally unsourced.
  • it would be wrong to delete the map completely
Sorry, but it is not constructive to restore a contested addition. Think as if I added an unsourced statement and reverted your justified revert. It would be disruptive for me to force my favored revision which was contested. Please self-revert per WP:BRD. You can later specify the sources and adjust the map accordingly. Then, feel free to present the new version of the map here. Thank you, Aintabli ( talk) 15:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I deleted the map. Lionel Cristiano ? 15:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Thank you. Aintabli ( talk) 15:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Origins of Kurds are contested, not Iranic ethnic group WP:NPOV=

Thank you @ Austronesier: for directing me to that former discussion. I read the discussion and agree with @ S Marshall: the discussion was inconclusive. The solution is not to make up a term and add it to the article lead. The academic consensus is that the origin of Kurds is contested. See this Limbert, J. (1968). The origins and appearance of the Kurds in pre‐Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1(2), 41-51.. See the sources from many different centuries along with more recent works I have cited below. First, adding the word Iranic ethnic group violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view because it favors one perspective. Second, an argument based on WP:WEIGHT doesn't apply because the number of sources not mentioning Iranian origin or saying something against it are in majority as you can see below. Third, none of the three references listed in the article mentioned the term Iranic ethnic group. There is a confusion between the notion of Kurdish belonging to Iranian languages with the origins of its people. Scholars who made this classification clearly warned about its caveats for example the peer reviewed article by Liumbert that quotes Vladimir Minorsky saying The classification of the Kurds among the Iranian nations is based mainly on linguistic and historical data and does not prejudice the fact there is a complexity of ethnical elements incorporated in them. Historically several theories have been around. Greeks and Europeans associated Kurds with Kardu, and we see such claims in works of scholars and missionaries visiting the region. Here you see McDowall speculates: Perhaps the Kardu... were really Medes, as Kurds themselves like to think, a distinct mountain tribal people of Indo-Aryan origin. He is not alone in this and many other scholars have the same view. I can numerous resources spanning centuries for this view. None of the sources mention Iranian or Iranic origins. Second, many associated the origin of Kurds to Arabs. This was the dominant view before the 20th century. You can see this view in this works of many Arab, Kurdish and Persian scholars and more from the region. Perhaps the oldest grepresentative of this view is Al-Masudi that in his The Meadows of Gold wrote that the origin of Kurds is contested. They were Aarbs and became mixed with Ajams (non-Arabs, e.g., Persians) and hence their different language. The original text is in Arabic and I can share it with you (can't post the URL here. Not allowed). This account has been shared by many other scholars including Waqyenegar, who is Kurdish and wrote Baday-ul-Lughat a Kurdish Persian dictionary. There are many other sources I can list if needed. Third, some Persian sources inspired by Persian mythology of Shahnameh and a story it tells about the origin of Kurds (people who survived the tyranny of the mythological king Zahhak the snake shoulder). Finally, Kurds themselves are very heterogeneous and some only speak Kurdish and have other origins such as Armenian etc. Please read KURDISH SOCIETY: HETEROGENEITY, STRATIFICATION, MINORITIES part of the article, which says "They were kurdophone and called themselves Kurds without attempting to hide their Armenian origins." There are many other sources like these: Hennerbichler, F. (2012). The origin of Kurds. Advances in Anthropology, 2(02), 64. The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society. Edited by Sebastian Maisel. Santa Barbara These are the some of the major perspectives, but there are more. So I don't see why such big claim should be made in the beginning of the article favoring one perspective, while it is not supported by most academic sources. Pirehelo ( talk) 18:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Austronesier: in case it didn't work first time. 18:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Less than 24 hrs ago you wrote in the edit summary: Kurdish is an Iranian language but there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group (emphasis added). Now you say it is a matter that favors one perspective, only to deny again in the following sentence that "Iranic" can be an appropriate qualifier for an ethnic group. This is confusing.
You see, "Iranic ethnic group" was a compromise; the earlier version read "Iranian ethnic group". A compromise to appease persistent whining about Kurds not being "from Iran", since for many, this is apparently the only reading of "Iranian ethnic group", even when one click on the blue text elucidates (to those who actually care) what "Iranian ethnic group" actually means (= one of the "Iranian peoples"). The terms "Iranian peoples" and "Iranic peoples" are firmly established in the literature, and a search in academic repositories and lesser sites like Google Scholar will inform you that the phrases "Iranic ethnic group" and "Iranian ethnic group" are not unheard of. I reverted the removal of the text not only because of the existing non-consensus to delete "Iranic/Iranian" as descriptor from "ethnic grouip", but also because of the counterfactual statement "there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group".
Don't get me wrong, I myself have opined multiple times that "Iranic/Iranian ethnic group" is not a good characterization for the Kurds in the opening sentence. But many editors disagree (and some certainly for reasons that are just as valid as mine). And I don't support changes that may result in a version that might align better with what I would like to see, but at the same time are argued on erroneous premises. – Austronesier ( talk) 19:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Austronesier:I reiterated that there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group. Could you please provide a few reliable references by researchers in Kurdish studies for it (Not 2024 articles copying English Wikipedia!)? Iranian languages do exist and Kurdish belong to them. Those who think Kurds are an Iranian ethnicity support their claim based on linguistics reasoning, and I just quoted Vladimir Minorsky, who belongs to this group, that literally warns about the limitations of such statement. Also again none of the three provided references support such thing. If something is so disputed why should it be in the lead? At least add a line saying this is contested with some being of such opinion not reverting my edits fully. Pirehelo ( talk) 20:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
First an attempt at claiming Nowruz and its influences across the world as "Kurdish" and now this. The citations you asked for are already in the thread you were advised to read, including responses to the arguments you are making. HistoryofIran ( talk) 20:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ HistoryofIran:I am asking for where in the sources the term Iranic ethnic group is mentioned. It's a madeup word? If you think otherwise, please add them as footnotes. 21:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
"Iranic" is a synonym for "Iranian", one simple Google eboks search would show you that it is indeed used in literature. HistoryofIran ( talk) 12:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Kurds&oldid=1221033973"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Talk:Kurdish people)


fix and correct a big mistake in the kurds page

The page currently describes Kurds as an "Iranian ethnic group," which is not correct. The Kurds are a distinct ethnic group with their own language, culture, and history, and they should not be solely categorized as Iranian. I kindly request that the page be updated to reflect this distinction more accurately. A more appropriate description could be "Kurds are a West Asian ethnic group native to a region known as Kurdistan, which spans southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria." Thank you for considering this request. I appreciate the hard work you do to maintain the accuracy and integrity of Wikipedia. Best regards,

Jami Jamilmajid3 ( talk) 03:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I am writing to address an important issue concerning the portrayal of the Kurdish people on the Wikipedia page dedicated to them. The current description labels the Kurds as an "Iranian ethnic group," which inaccurately represents their distinct identity. The Kurds possess a unique linguistic, cultural, and historical heritage, distinguishing them as a separate ethnic group. Their ancestral homeland, Kurdistan, extends across parts of southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria. I respectfully request an update to the page to more accurately depict the Kurds' identity. A suggested revision could be: "Kurds are a West Asian ethnic group indigenous to a region known as Kurdistan, spanning across several countries including southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria."

regards, Jami Majid Jamilmajid3 ( talk) 03:23, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

As of now, the article uses the label "Iranic ethnic group", not "Iranian ethnic group". Also, the current lead sentence does not say nor imply that Kurds do not have a distinct identity or are not a separate ethnic group.
One may argue (and which is also my personal opinion) that the geographic label "West Asian" is more helpful for the general reader than the label "Iranic" that emphasizes the wider linguistic, cultural, and historical affliations of the Kurds, but a discussion in Nov/Dec 2023 has shown that there is no consensus for such a change. – Austronesier ( talk) 12:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Agreed. West Asian seems more appropriate than Iranic. 70.29.13.119 ( talk) 04:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
agree, because we are not Iranian ReShan1956 ( talk) 09:28, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply

1st The Kurds are not "Iranic ethnic group" but they are "West Asian ethnic group native to a region known as Kurdistan, which spans southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria"

Sources: The Kurds: A Concise Handbook" by Mehrdad Izady. In this book, Izady explores the unique aspects of Kurdish culture, history, and language, distinguishing them from their neighbors, including the Iranians.

Another source is "The Kurds: A People in Search of Their Homeland" by Kevin McKiernan. This book provides an overview of Kurdish history and the struggle for a distinct Kurdish identity, including their differences from the Iranian people.

2nd The Kurdish Language is not "Western Iranian branch of the Iranian languages" but The Kurdish people speak Kurdish languages, which are divided into different dialects such as Sorani and Kurmanji, each with its own unique accents and variations

Sources: The Kurds: A Modern History" by Michael M. Gunter: This book provides a detailed account of Kurdish history, politics, and society, highlighting their distinct ethnic identity separate from Iranians, Turks, and Arabs.

"A People Without a State: The Kurds from the Rise of Islam to the Dawn of Nationalism" by Michael Eppel: This book explores the historical background of the Kurdish people, their struggles for autonomy, and their unique cultural and linguistic identity.

"Kurdish Culture and Society: An Annotated Bibliography" by Lokman I. Meho and Kelly Maglaughlin: This bibliography provides an extensive list of resources on Kurdish culture, language, and history, offering insights into their distinct identity.

"The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society" edited by Sebastian Maisel: This encyclopedia covers various aspects of Kurdish life, including their languages, cultural practices, and social structures, highlighting their uniqueness as an ethnic group.

172.103.196.12 ( talk) 16:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Dispute: Kurds as an ethnic Ethnic Group.

Hello,

I would like to raise a concern regarding the description of Kurds in the article. The page currently describes Kurds as an "Iranic ethnic group," which I believe is not accurate. the Kurds distinct ethnic group with their own unique language, culture, and history.

Kurds inhabit a region known as Kurdistan, which spans across southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria. This geographical distribution and their distinct identity suggest that Kurds should not be solely categorized as Iranian.

I kindly request that the page be updated to reflect this distinction more accurately. A more appropriate description could be:

"Kurds are a West Asian ethnic group native to a region known as Kurdistan, which spans southeastern Turkey, northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, and northern Syria."

This change would provide a more comprehensive understanding of the Kurdish identity and their geographical distribution.

Thank you for considering this modification.

Jamilmajid3 ( talk) 19:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply

First of all, don't add disputed-tags to talk pages. The way you used the tags indicated to readers that the accuracy of what you wrote is disputed. That was hardly your intention. Second, we go by reliable sources. Your suggestion is to change a text based on the terminology of reliable sources to a text based on your preferences. That is not how Wikipedia works. Jeppiz ( talk) 20:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
there is 100 of evidences that we are indigenous people from Kurdistan ReShan1956 ( talk) 09:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Jamilmajid3: This is spam at this rate. Kindly refrain from creating multiple sections for the same topic where you ask the same thing (I already merged your multiple sections here [1]). Please also read WP:SOAPBOX, WP:JDLI, WP:FORUM and the previous consensus [2]. HistoryofIran ( talk) 22:35, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I've seen several pages where they write correct history. Please don't spread wrong information. We are indigenous ethnic groups and are not from Iran. ReShan1956 ( talk) 09:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Looks like there is some brigading occurring. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 12:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ HistoryofIranHistoryofIran,
I understand that there are guidelines and policies to follow on Wikipedia, and I respect the importance of maintaining the integrity of the encyclopedia. However, I believe that our discussions are a genuine attempt to ensure the accuracy and representation of the Kurdish people on Wikipedia. I kindly request that we continue this conversation with a focus on the content and sources, without perceiving each discussion or edit as spam or a threat. Our goal is to contribute positively to the article and reach a consensus that reflects the most accurate information based on reliable sources. Thank you for your understanding. 172.103.196.12 ( talk) 22:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@172.103.196.12: I'll keep it short and only answer to your second question from 23 March 2024. You say: The Kurdish Language is not "Western Iranian branch of the Iranian languages", even though we have multiple sources in various articles to support this well-known fact. Kurdish is an Indo-European language and belongs to its Iranian branch (or "Iranic" if that's more palatable to you). Denying this is linguistic flat-earthism.
So do these sources that you mention above (Gunter, Eppel, Meho & Maglaughlin, Maisel) belong to some alternative scholarly universe where this classification is rejected? No, claiming otherwise would mean slandering these academics. But their concern is not historical linguistics, so chances are high that they probably don't bother to delve into the question of the linguistic affiliation because it's off-topic to their discussion. Lack of mention does not imply rejection.
Please make yourself familar with at least some basic facts about language families before you go on to mechanically repeat that The Kurdish Language is not "Western Iranian branch of the Iranian languages". Thank you. – Austronesier ( talk) 17:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

[1]

According to recent research of Palaeo/Archaeo-genetics and DNA Genealogy, forefathers of Kurds were in their earliest traceable origins mainly descendants of Near Eastern and Eurasian indigenous aboriginal peoples, predominantly oldest Neolithic farmers and shepherds who cultivated areas of the Northern Fertile Crescent ca. 10,000-5,000 B.C.E. During the last millennia B.C.E. these aboriginal Neolithic forefathers of Kurds were linguistically Indoiranianized by emigrating militarily organized elites from Central Asia

Kurds are traditionally regarded as Iranians and of Iranian origin, and therefore as Indo-Europeans, mainly, because they speak Iranian. This hypothesis is largely based on linguistic considerations and was predominantly developed by linguists. In contrast to such believes, newest DNA-research of advanced Human Anthropology indicates, that in earliest traceable origins, forefathers of Kurds were obviously de-scendants of indigenous (first) Neolithic Northern Fertile Crescent aborigines, geographically mainly from outside and northwest of what is Iran of today in Near East and Eurasia. Oldest ancestral forefathers of Kurds were millennia later linguistically Iranianized in several waves by militarily organized elites 2A02:3102:4162:AC:248D:F799:F704:35F5 ( talk) 22:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

  1. ^ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265947486_The_Origin_of_Kurds
Stop creating more and more threads, this is what, the eight one? Next time you will be reported. If you bothered to look into the previous discussion as you had been advised, you would have know this exact source was already discussed. I'm removing this section and merging it into the current one. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 23:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Kurds are not Iranic people. There is a very significant misleading and misinformation on the identity of the Kurdish people. Please re-consider your resources and edit them properly. Mehtap Leyla Turanalp Uysal ( talk) 19:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC) reply

  •  Not done Malformed request without sources. Duplicates discussion above. Discuss with reliable sources in the above section and gain WP:CONSENSUS for change. Currently the consensus of reliable sources does not support this change.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Map

@ Lionel Cristiano, I want to let you know that the WP:BURDEN is on you to provide the sources for the map on Wikimedia Commons. See WP:OR and WP:RS. It is clear that the map doesn't reflect what is on this article. Please self-revert and start a discussion on this talk page per WP:BRD instead of restoring your unsourced insertion. Thank you. Aintabli ( talk) 14:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hello @ Aintabli, there is map diaspora in all races. I made the map based on the resources here. If u think it's wrong, I can edit it again, but it would be wrong to delete the map completely. Lionel Cristiano ? 14:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Lionel Cristiano
  • there is map diaspora in all races.
Frankly, that doesn’t justify adding an unsourced map cross-wiki which disrupts the core verifiability policy of Wikipedia.
  • I made the map based on the resources here.
The content on an article can change, and when it comes to such a map, it is imperative to be clear about the sources, which should not be difficult to find. On the other hand, I am repeating myself but the map doesn’t reflect the article fully.
  • If u think it's wrong, I can edit it again
My opinions are irrelevant other than it being totally unsourced.
  • it would be wrong to delete the map completely
Sorry, but it is not constructive to restore a contested addition. Think as if I added an unsourced statement and reverted your justified revert. It would be disruptive for me to force my favored revision which was contested. Please self-revert per WP:BRD. You can later specify the sources and adjust the map accordingly. Then, feel free to present the new version of the map here. Thank you, Aintabli ( talk) 15:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I deleted the map. Lionel Cristiano ? 15:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Thank you. Aintabli ( talk) 15:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Origins of Kurds are contested, not Iranic ethnic group WP:NPOV=

Thank you @ Austronesier: for directing me to that former discussion. I read the discussion and agree with @ S Marshall: the discussion was inconclusive. The solution is not to make up a term and add it to the article lead. The academic consensus is that the origin of Kurds is contested. See this Limbert, J. (1968). The origins and appearance of the Kurds in pre‐Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1(2), 41-51.. See the sources from many different centuries along with more recent works I have cited below. First, adding the word Iranic ethnic group violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view because it favors one perspective. Second, an argument based on WP:WEIGHT doesn't apply because the number of sources not mentioning Iranian origin or saying something against it are in majority as you can see below. Third, none of the three references listed in the article mentioned the term Iranic ethnic group. There is a confusion between the notion of Kurdish belonging to Iranian languages with the origins of its people. Scholars who made this classification clearly warned about its caveats for example the peer reviewed article by Liumbert that quotes Vladimir Minorsky saying The classification of the Kurds among the Iranian nations is based mainly on linguistic and historical data and does not prejudice the fact there is a complexity of ethnical elements incorporated in them. Historically several theories have been around. Greeks and Europeans associated Kurds with Kardu, and we see such claims in works of scholars and missionaries visiting the region. Here you see McDowall speculates: Perhaps the Kardu... were really Medes, as Kurds themselves like to think, a distinct mountain tribal people of Indo-Aryan origin. He is not alone in this and many other scholars have the same view. I can numerous resources spanning centuries for this view. None of the sources mention Iranian or Iranic origins. Second, many associated the origin of Kurds to Arabs. This was the dominant view before the 20th century. You can see this view in this works of many Arab, Kurdish and Persian scholars and more from the region. Perhaps the oldest grepresentative of this view is Al-Masudi that in his The Meadows of Gold wrote that the origin of Kurds is contested. They were Aarbs and became mixed with Ajams (non-Arabs, e.g., Persians) and hence their different language. The original text is in Arabic and I can share it with you (can't post the URL here. Not allowed). This account has been shared by many other scholars including Waqyenegar, who is Kurdish and wrote Baday-ul-Lughat a Kurdish Persian dictionary. There are many other sources I can list if needed. Third, some Persian sources inspired by Persian mythology of Shahnameh and a story it tells about the origin of Kurds (people who survived the tyranny of the mythological king Zahhak the snake shoulder). Finally, Kurds themselves are very heterogeneous and some only speak Kurdish and have other origins such as Armenian etc. Please read KURDISH SOCIETY: HETEROGENEITY, STRATIFICATION, MINORITIES part of the article, which says "They were kurdophone and called themselves Kurds without attempting to hide their Armenian origins." There are many other sources like these: Hennerbichler, F. (2012). The origin of Kurds. Advances in Anthropology, 2(02), 64. The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society. Edited by Sebastian Maisel. Santa Barbara These are the some of the major perspectives, but there are more. So I don't see why such big claim should be made in the beginning of the article favoring one perspective, while it is not supported by most academic sources. Pirehelo ( talk) 18:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Austronesier: in case it didn't work first time. 18:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Less than 24 hrs ago you wrote in the edit summary: Kurdish is an Iranian language but there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group (emphasis added). Now you say it is a matter that favors one perspective, only to deny again in the following sentence that "Iranic" can be an appropriate qualifier for an ethnic group. This is confusing.
You see, "Iranic ethnic group" was a compromise; the earlier version read "Iranian ethnic group". A compromise to appease persistent whining about Kurds not being "from Iran", since for many, this is apparently the only reading of "Iranian ethnic group", even when one click on the blue text elucidates (to those who actually care) what "Iranian ethnic group" actually means (= one of the "Iranian peoples"). The terms "Iranian peoples" and "Iranic peoples" are firmly established in the literature, and a search in academic repositories and lesser sites like Google Scholar will inform you that the phrases "Iranic ethnic group" and "Iranian ethnic group" are not unheard of. I reverted the removal of the text not only because of the existing non-consensus to delete "Iranic/Iranian" as descriptor from "ethnic grouip", but also because of the counterfactual statement "there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group".
Don't get me wrong, I myself have opined multiple times that "Iranic/Iranian ethnic group" is not a good characterization for the Kurds in the opening sentence. But many editors disagree (and some certainly for reasons that are just as valid as mine). And I don't support changes that may result in a version that might align better with what I would like to see, but at the same time are argued on erroneous premises. – Austronesier ( talk) 19:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Austronesier:I reiterated that there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group. Could you please provide a few reliable references by researchers in Kurdish studies for it (Not 2024 articles copying English Wikipedia!)? Iranian languages do exist and Kurdish belong to them. Those who think Kurds are an Iranian ethnicity support their claim based on linguistics reasoning, and I just quoted Vladimir Minorsky, who belongs to this group, that literally warns about the limitations of such statement. Also again none of the three provided references support such thing. If something is so disputed why should it be in the lead? At least add a line saying this is contested with some being of such opinion not reverting my edits fully. Pirehelo ( talk) 20:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
First an attempt at claiming Nowruz and its influences across the world as "Kurdish" and now this. The citations you asked for are already in the thread you were advised to read, including responses to the arguments you are making. HistoryofIran ( talk) 20:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ HistoryofIran:I am asking for where in the sources the term Iranic ethnic group is mentioned. It's a madeup word? If you think otherwise, please add them as footnotes. 21:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC) reply
"Iranic" is a synonym for "Iranian", one simple Google eboks search would show you that it is indeed used in literature. HistoryofIran ( talk) 12:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Kurds&oldid=1221033973"

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