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Has anyone ever heard of a connection between Khan and Robert Heinlein's 1942 novel Beyond This Horizon?
In the backstory of Heinlein's novel (pages 25 thru 28 in the 1964 paperback edition), Khan is the leader of the genetically-engineered supermen who conquer the world in the Second "Genetic" (not "Eugenics") War. Maybe Wilber or Coon (Space Seed's authors) read the novel and incorporated part of its backstory into what eventually would become the Star Trek canon?
Has anyone heard of anything about this, even in the fanzines? Are the sources good enough that this tidbit could be incorporated into the article? RoyGoldsmith ( talk) 19:53, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Because Star Trek is fictional, the TV shows and the movies, it is somewhat ridiculous to assert that the novels or the animated series are not "real Star Trek," or non-canon. The novels certainly fit into the "expanded Star Trek universe." Whether even Gene Roddenberry felt this or that was consistent with his view of the Star Trek universe may be interesting in itself but is hardly the final word. Prominent Star Trek contributors Dorothy Fontana, David Gerrold, William Shatner, and Leonard Nimoy have all mocked the canon-- noncanon delineations as arbitrary and silly. AaronCBurke ( talk) 17:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Is this link worth putting in the article? http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Khan
It is a fan site but does talk about the Cox books. -- FeanorStar7 ( talk) 21:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The Gazette link should be disambiguated. Art LaPella ( talk) 16:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
I noticed the similarity between the names Khan Noonien Singh and Dr. Noonien Soong, the creator of Data and several other androids. Neither the article on Khan nor the article on Dr. Soong seem to discuss any connection between the two characters, although the article on Soong has a link to the Khan article. Is there a connection, and if so, should it be explained in the article? - Mark Dixon ( talk) 14:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
In all the discussions this character has generated, has no one commented that Ricardo Montalban looks nothing like a Sikh? I would have expected this to generate nearly as much controversy as if Sir Laurence Olivier had played Martin Luther King in blackface... Paul Magnussen ( talk) 21:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.114.171 ( talk) 08:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Second picture down, the caption. Doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me. Why should we be paying special attention? Maybe something like "The director chose Khan's revealing outfit because (reason 1), and (reason 2). ( 24.131.254.74 ( talk) 14:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC))
I've edited the reference to script girl to be the more accurate script supervisor. For the reasoning, one need look no farther than Wikipedia's own entry about "script supervisor." XofWiki ( talk)
So what's the situation with sourcing, here? We have a line in the original 1967 TV script where a character looks at Khan and says that he is "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh.", and then nothing until a 2003 spin-off novel where Greg Cox fleshes that line out to have Khan proudly talking about his "Sikh ancestors", followed by a 2006 "supervillain book" where he's listed as being "a Sikh born in India's Punjab region", and a 2012 blog entry (which I think fails WP:RS) that calls him a "Sikh superman"?
We should be careful about using spin-off novels and fan encyclopaedias as sources for facts which aren't mentioned in the main television and film series; the bulk of the article is talking about Khan's appearance and reception on television and in film. (If another spin-off novel revealed that Khan was secretly a robot, it would be confusing to open the article by talking about Khan being a robot.) When we say "Khan appears as a North Indian Sikh who is both admired and reviled by the Enterprise crew." we are implying that this is how he appears in the TV show, which seems misleading.
We have a clear primary source where the 1967 TV script has a character describe him as appearing to be "from the northern India area" and "probably a Sikh". The first half is strong enough to say that he "appears as an Indian" the lede, but given that the second is only a "probably", I think it's better left in context in the body of the article. -- McGeddon ( talk) 09:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Let us be clear: Star Trek canon does not consider the various third-party or spinoff novels, even if authorized by the rights holders, to be canonical. The upside is that it gives authors wide latitudes in creative expression; the downside is they cannot be used in Wikipedia articles. We mention Greg Cox's book as a notable appearance of the character, but it's not a valid source, and neither are scripts (they might give us intent, but ultimately what is canon is what ends up on screen.) The supervillain book is probably just copying Cox's info, and the blog is simply not reliable. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 13:54, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
A character supposes they are a Sikh, and draws that picture. But nowhere does Khan himself say "why I'm North Indian, and a Sikh, don't you know." Acting as if it's definitely stated is incorrect, and in that realm it doesn't matter what Greg Cox says as it's non-canon.We're an encyclopedia, not a work of original research. The whole point of the verbiage is largely irrelevant, as his supposed ethnicity is pretty inconsequential for the lead--he's not known because he's possibly-Indian. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 17:53, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
" The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." - quoting that not only is he portrayed as Indian, but a northern Indian and "probably a Sikh", seems a bit too much weight. It's fine that this is mentioned in the article body, but we shouldn't overwhelm the lead by focusing on aspects of a character which, although they might be important to us as individual editors, are not a big part of the article. -- McGeddon ( talk) 11:15, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
This is the sort of annoying goof (to those who understand the Indian culture). Jeffery Archer, the British novelist,made the same stupid error when he named a short-story character of his Anil Khan. He cleverly took first name of Anil Kapoor and the last of Salman Khan and thought he has created libel-safe name for a fictional cop. But the idiot didn't know was that Anil is essentially a Hindu name and one named thus can never be a Muslim, which a person with second name as Khan is sure to be !
The same blunder is repeated here : A Singh is always a Sikh. Though a gurkha, a rajput(hindu) or even a bania(in very rare cases) might be a Singh. But a Muslim can never be a Singh, and a Khan cannot be a Sikh( or a hindu )! 124.253.202.166 ( talk) 07:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Aftabgujral ( talk) 13:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)"Sava Lakh Se Ekh Laraaoon" means "One can fight 125000" Not to be rude but you are not doing a good job of translating a simple phrase. Personally, I am afraid, I take this (the name / origins of Khan) as another example of the ignorance shown by English and American authors, film makers etc. Aftabgujral ( talk) 13:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi all, are there any WP:Reliable references to what Khan Noonien means? I have done some research and Khan Noon would mean "The Law". Khan Noonien or Khan Noonie would mean "Abider of Law". Anyone else find anything on this? Thanks SH 15:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
This article may need to undergo FAR considering that at least a third of the sections are missing some very important citations. Especially the Star Trek Into Darkness and Novel section. I have added {{
cn}}
where required to meet the minimum. I certainly think there's an opportunity to fix the article before the film comes out, otherwise this should in fairness be going to a FAR considering the seriousness of the issues at hand.
Mkdw
talk 05:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Generally there's not much of a reason to cite content that specifically comes from media, because that media is itself the source--we don't usually cite much in plot sections for that reason. As for other FA criteria, the fact that Cumberbatch is Khan, which has clearly been kept quiet, means there's not as much on his portrayal as I'd like, but after the dust settles from release I plan on incorporating what's relevant. I'm open to opinions from editors on how to format the article, given that the past 30 years of information, awards and recognition has been based intrinsically on Montalban's portrayal. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 16:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The Klingon homeworld is still called Kronos at this point in the alternate timeline, it is shown onscreen. Yes the actual name is Qu'onoS in Klingonese, but the federation did not use that spelling until after the events of Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country.
See the talk page of Into Darkness for further information. Colliric ( talk) 07:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Shame that Gene's charachter that was based on a chap he met in the 2nd World War called Kim Noonien Singh wasn't honoured in the new film. Interesting article [1] here on this. SH 16:44, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
no offence but you have no idea what you are talking about. North-West Indians are light brown skinned. They have originated from groups like Jat, Scythians from the Black Sea area. They tend to be tall. An extreme variation is the wrestler The Great Khali. There is no stirring by Muslims (please stop confusing Muslims with Sikhs). He is not a Sheik but a SIKH. Motalban looks exactly like North-West Indians or Punjabi's. It's this sort of ignorance that has led to the Whitewashing of the Star Trek Universe. SH 14:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Guys, let's cut this short. This is a venue for discussing improvements to the article, not airing grievances about the film. If there's commentary on the perceived whitewashing of the character from reliable sources, we can add it in. Otherwise, this thread doesn't have much of a purpose. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 13:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
According to "Marla McGivers: From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors. —"Space Seed". Star Trek: The Original Series. Season 1. Episode 22. 1967-02-16. NBC." it clearly states that Maria McGivers describes Khan Noonien Singh as "Northern Indian" and NOT India, yet one editor persists on adding Indian. On a personal level I find this quite insulting and verging on racism. Please add your views. Thanks SH 15:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
SH 18:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
David I think the anon IP has made my point. He's widely regarded as "northern Indian" or "Sikh" because of the episode "Space Seed" where Marla describes him as such dismissed. I even proposed that he is "described as" or "widely recognised" in the lead, but you keep dismissing it David and reverting my or any other editor's edits. Thanks SH 09:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The reference to the Nietzschian Übermensch is completely wrong. Nietzsche's Overman has NOTHING to do with being physically or mentally superior to other humans. That's a nazi/fascist concept that Nietzsche was not eluding to. The Nietzschian Overman actually 'rises above himself'. Thus, for example, Superman, Batman or Khan, are NOT overmen. Super heroes and villains never 'rise above themselves', but remain limited by their birth circumstance. Please remove this mistaken and wrong reference to the Nietzschian overman. In contrast, Kubrik's post-human "Starchild" from Space odyssee 2001 might be regarded as "Overman", but that again has nothing to do with physical/mental superiority over other humans. The Overman conquers himself, not others. You have completely misunderstood Nietzsche. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.78.118 ( talk) 08:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Okay, so I understand that in Star Trek Into Darkness the characters spell and speak the name of the Klingon homeworld as "Kronos". However, as the Klingon language exists in real life and since this page describes material from multiple Star Trek works not only Star Trek Into Darkness, is it wrong to write "Qo'noS" since we know "Kronos" to be something of a production inaccuracy? Transphasic ( talk) 17:22, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I saw the section, saw that it needed a some work, and edited it to look a bit more presentable. Then, looking at the page history, I realized that the section was only added today (hours before I edited it), and I began questioning the section's necessity. I'd be OK with keeping it, but if the consensus is to remove, that's OK too (Editor for years, new to this article). Any thoughts? -- MattMauler ( talk) 19:45, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Surely a still from the actual film or a poster clipping or the like would meet WP:FAIRUSE for this article? A photo of Cumberbatch in a suit jacket and tie with a different hair colour, from what I suspect may have been before he was even cast as the character, seems somewhat irrelevant. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 15:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
That there is a retcon is clear from the actual dialog of "Space Seed" and the actual dialog of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
In "Space Seed" the reason for Khan's abilities is only described as coming from "selective breeding". In The Wrath of Khan, the reason for Khan's abilities is only described as coming from "genetic engineering".
The phrase "genetic engineering" had not yet been created in 1967.
You want to call me a liar, David Fuchs, and once again hog an article as your personal property as you've done to me in the past, your bad habit, as the words are there for anyone to listen and compare between the original episode and the movie made fifteen years later.
You didn't write the story or the screenplay to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and you DO NOT own it. -- Davidkevin ( talk) 04:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Also inline with my edit summary, take into account that the article is to be written for the layperson, who will not care about the distinction. ( Undue weight is probably the most relevant policy off the top of my head.)
As for selective breeding vice genetic engineering, please take into account also that the characters in the screenplays are not reliable sources; who is to say that one character is more correct than the other without that explicitly being voiced by the Star Trek creators? -- Izno ( talk) 06:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
life experience [...]: That and the following paragraph would be ad hominem, so it's not worth responding to.
script is not an explicit voice of what they intended, is it?
: You cannot guarantee it without the universe creators saying as such in an interview or the Star Trek Encyclopedia or some other out-of-universe source. Period. As I suggested, it's normal for universe creators to explain such differences away with "oh, that character isn't a reliable one" or "that character has a different viewpoint" (or a slew of other explanations; an example of differing viewpoints/reliability of the character coming into question would be several in the
Warcraft RPG, before those sources were actually officially removed from that universe's canon), so without such out-of-universe sourcing to suggest that the change in phrasing in the context of Star Trek was either deliberate or accidental, any suggestion of a
retcon in the article-proper is
original research. Period. (Again.)
Every. Single. Time.
Hyperbole. While I
don't doubt that your intentions are good, this particular change (and potentially your others, though I have not reviewed your contributions) are clearly not in keeping with at least one of the core policies of Wikipedia.
reliable resource
: Wikipedia will never be reliable. Useful, maybe. (This is perhaps quibbling, but I do not know how precise your verbiage is in this context.)
I give up.
: Wikipedia apparently needs a Wikipedia essay on
WP:Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Regardless, you shall always have the
right to vanish, so no-one is stopping you from leaving or choosing not to contribute. --
Izno (
talk) 02:07, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
There is no WP:CONSENSUS for these changes. Dbrodbeck ( talk) 11:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I would like to mentioned that DS9's "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" not only clearly stated that Khan was the product of DNA resequencing but that the The Eugenics Wars (ie WWIII) happened only 200 years ago which would put it in the 22nd century.--
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Has anyone ever heard of a connection between Khan and Robert Heinlein's 1942 novel Beyond This Horizon?
In the backstory of Heinlein's novel (pages 25 thru 28 in the 1964 paperback edition), Khan is the leader of the genetically-engineered supermen who conquer the world in the Second "Genetic" (not "Eugenics") War. Maybe Wilber or Coon (Space Seed's authors) read the novel and incorporated part of its backstory into what eventually would become the Star Trek canon?
Has anyone heard of anything about this, even in the fanzines? Are the sources good enough that this tidbit could be incorporated into the article? RoyGoldsmith ( talk) 19:53, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Because Star Trek is fictional, the TV shows and the movies, it is somewhat ridiculous to assert that the novels or the animated series are not "real Star Trek," or non-canon. The novels certainly fit into the "expanded Star Trek universe." Whether even Gene Roddenberry felt this or that was consistent with his view of the Star Trek universe may be interesting in itself but is hardly the final word. Prominent Star Trek contributors Dorothy Fontana, David Gerrold, William Shatner, and Leonard Nimoy have all mocked the canon-- noncanon delineations as arbitrary and silly. AaronCBurke ( talk) 17:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Is this link worth putting in the article? http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Khan
It is a fan site but does talk about the Cox books. -- FeanorStar7 ( talk) 21:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The Gazette link should be disambiguated. Art LaPella ( talk) 16:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
I noticed the similarity between the names Khan Noonien Singh and Dr. Noonien Soong, the creator of Data and several other androids. Neither the article on Khan nor the article on Dr. Soong seem to discuss any connection between the two characters, although the article on Soong has a link to the Khan article. Is there a connection, and if so, should it be explained in the article? - Mark Dixon ( talk) 14:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
In all the discussions this character has generated, has no one commented that Ricardo Montalban looks nothing like a Sikh? I would have expected this to generate nearly as much controversy as if Sir Laurence Olivier had played Martin Luther King in blackface... Paul Magnussen ( talk) 21:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.114.171 ( talk) 08:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Second picture down, the caption. Doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me. Why should we be paying special attention? Maybe something like "The director chose Khan's revealing outfit because (reason 1), and (reason 2). ( 24.131.254.74 ( talk) 14:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC))
I've edited the reference to script girl to be the more accurate script supervisor. For the reasoning, one need look no farther than Wikipedia's own entry about "script supervisor." XofWiki ( talk)
So what's the situation with sourcing, here? We have a line in the original 1967 TV script where a character looks at Khan and says that he is "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh.", and then nothing until a 2003 spin-off novel where Greg Cox fleshes that line out to have Khan proudly talking about his "Sikh ancestors", followed by a 2006 "supervillain book" where he's listed as being "a Sikh born in India's Punjab region", and a 2012 blog entry (which I think fails WP:RS) that calls him a "Sikh superman"?
We should be careful about using spin-off novels and fan encyclopaedias as sources for facts which aren't mentioned in the main television and film series; the bulk of the article is talking about Khan's appearance and reception on television and in film. (If another spin-off novel revealed that Khan was secretly a robot, it would be confusing to open the article by talking about Khan being a robot.) When we say "Khan appears as a North Indian Sikh who is both admired and reviled by the Enterprise crew." we are implying that this is how he appears in the TV show, which seems misleading.
We have a clear primary source where the 1967 TV script has a character describe him as appearing to be "from the northern India area" and "probably a Sikh". The first half is strong enough to say that he "appears as an Indian" the lede, but given that the second is only a "probably", I think it's better left in context in the body of the article. -- McGeddon ( talk) 09:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Let us be clear: Star Trek canon does not consider the various third-party or spinoff novels, even if authorized by the rights holders, to be canonical. The upside is that it gives authors wide latitudes in creative expression; the downside is they cannot be used in Wikipedia articles. We mention Greg Cox's book as a notable appearance of the character, but it's not a valid source, and neither are scripts (they might give us intent, but ultimately what is canon is what ends up on screen.) The supervillain book is probably just copying Cox's info, and the blog is simply not reliable. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 13:54, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
A character supposes they are a Sikh, and draws that picture. But nowhere does Khan himself say "why I'm North Indian, and a Sikh, don't you know." Acting as if it's definitely stated is incorrect, and in that realm it doesn't matter what Greg Cox says as it's non-canon.We're an encyclopedia, not a work of original research. The whole point of the verbiage is largely irrelevant, as his supposed ethnicity is pretty inconsequential for the lead--he's not known because he's possibly-Indian. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 17:53, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
" The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." - quoting that not only is he portrayed as Indian, but a northern Indian and "probably a Sikh", seems a bit too much weight. It's fine that this is mentioned in the article body, but we shouldn't overwhelm the lead by focusing on aspects of a character which, although they might be important to us as individual editors, are not a big part of the article. -- McGeddon ( talk) 11:15, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
This is the sort of annoying goof (to those who understand the Indian culture). Jeffery Archer, the British novelist,made the same stupid error when he named a short-story character of his Anil Khan. He cleverly took first name of Anil Kapoor and the last of Salman Khan and thought he has created libel-safe name for a fictional cop. But the idiot didn't know was that Anil is essentially a Hindu name and one named thus can never be a Muslim, which a person with second name as Khan is sure to be !
The same blunder is repeated here : A Singh is always a Sikh. Though a gurkha, a rajput(hindu) or even a bania(in very rare cases) might be a Singh. But a Muslim can never be a Singh, and a Khan cannot be a Sikh( or a hindu )! 124.253.202.166 ( talk) 07:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Aftabgujral ( talk) 13:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)"Sava Lakh Se Ekh Laraaoon" means "One can fight 125000" Not to be rude but you are not doing a good job of translating a simple phrase. Personally, I am afraid, I take this (the name / origins of Khan) as another example of the ignorance shown by English and American authors, film makers etc. Aftabgujral ( talk) 13:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi all, are there any WP:Reliable references to what Khan Noonien means? I have done some research and Khan Noon would mean "The Law". Khan Noonien or Khan Noonie would mean "Abider of Law". Anyone else find anything on this? Thanks SH 15:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
This article may need to undergo FAR considering that at least a third of the sections are missing some very important citations. Especially the Star Trek Into Darkness and Novel section. I have added {{
cn}}
where required to meet the minimum. I certainly think there's an opportunity to fix the article before the film comes out, otherwise this should in fairness be going to a FAR considering the seriousness of the issues at hand.
Mkdw
talk 05:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Generally there's not much of a reason to cite content that specifically comes from media, because that media is itself the source--we don't usually cite much in plot sections for that reason. As for other FA criteria, the fact that Cumberbatch is Khan, which has clearly been kept quiet, means there's not as much on his portrayal as I'd like, but after the dust settles from release I plan on incorporating what's relevant. I'm open to opinions from editors on how to format the article, given that the past 30 years of information, awards and recognition has been based intrinsically on Montalban's portrayal. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 16:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The Klingon homeworld is still called Kronos at this point in the alternate timeline, it is shown onscreen. Yes the actual name is Qu'onoS in Klingonese, but the federation did not use that spelling until after the events of Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country.
See the talk page of Into Darkness for further information. Colliric ( talk) 07:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Shame that Gene's charachter that was based on a chap he met in the 2nd World War called Kim Noonien Singh wasn't honoured in the new film. Interesting article [1] here on this. SH 16:44, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
no offence but you have no idea what you are talking about. North-West Indians are light brown skinned. They have originated from groups like Jat, Scythians from the Black Sea area. They tend to be tall. An extreme variation is the wrestler The Great Khali. There is no stirring by Muslims (please stop confusing Muslims with Sikhs). He is not a Sheik but a SIKH. Motalban looks exactly like North-West Indians or Punjabi's. It's this sort of ignorance that has led to the Whitewashing of the Star Trek Universe. SH 14:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Guys, let's cut this short. This is a venue for discussing improvements to the article, not airing grievances about the film. If there's commentary on the perceived whitewashing of the character from reliable sources, we can add it in. Otherwise, this thread doesn't have much of a purpose. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 13:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
According to "Marla McGivers: From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors. —"Space Seed". Star Trek: The Original Series. Season 1. Episode 22. 1967-02-16. NBC." it clearly states that Maria McGivers describes Khan Noonien Singh as "Northern Indian" and NOT India, yet one editor persists on adding Indian. On a personal level I find this quite insulting and verging on racism. Please add your views. Thanks SH 15:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
SH 18:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
David I think the anon IP has made my point. He's widely regarded as "northern Indian" or "Sikh" because of the episode "Space Seed" where Marla describes him as such dismissed. I even proposed that he is "described as" or "widely recognised" in the lead, but you keep dismissing it David and reverting my or any other editor's edits. Thanks SH 09:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The reference to the Nietzschian Übermensch is completely wrong. Nietzsche's Overman has NOTHING to do with being physically or mentally superior to other humans. That's a nazi/fascist concept that Nietzsche was not eluding to. The Nietzschian Overman actually 'rises above himself'. Thus, for example, Superman, Batman or Khan, are NOT overmen. Super heroes and villains never 'rise above themselves', but remain limited by their birth circumstance. Please remove this mistaken and wrong reference to the Nietzschian overman. In contrast, Kubrik's post-human "Starchild" from Space odyssee 2001 might be regarded as "Overman", but that again has nothing to do with physical/mental superiority over other humans. The Overman conquers himself, not others. You have completely misunderstood Nietzsche. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.78.118 ( talk) 08:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Okay, so I understand that in Star Trek Into Darkness the characters spell and speak the name of the Klingon homeworld as "Kronos". However, as the Klingon language exists in real life and since this page describes material from multiple Star Trek works not only Star Trek Into Darkness, is it wrong to write "Qo'noS" since we know "Kronos" to be something of a production inaccuracy? Transphasic ( talk) 17:22, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I saw the section, saw that it needed a some work, and edited it to look a bit more presentable. Then, looking at the page history, I realized that the section was only added today (hours before I edited it), and I began questioning the section's necessity. I'd be OK with keeping it, but if the consensus is to remove, that's OK too (Editor for years, new to this article). Any thoughts? -- MattMauler ( talk) 19:45, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Surely a still from the actual film or a poster clipping or the like would meet WP:FAIRUSE for this article? A photo of Cumberbatch in a suit jacket and tie with a different hair colour, from what I suspect may have been before he was even cast as the character, seems somewhat irrelevant. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 15:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
That there is a retcon is clear from the actual dialog of "Space Seed" and the actual dialog of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
In "Space Seed" the reason for Khan's abilities is only described as coming from "selective breeding". In The Wrath of Khan, the reason for Khan's abilities is only described as coming from "genetic engineering".
The phrase "genetic engineering" had not yet been created in 1967.
You want to call me a liar, David Fuchs, and once again hog an article as your personal property as you've done to me in the past, your bad habit, as the words are there for anyone to listen and compare between the original episode and the movie made fifteen years later.
You didn't write the story or the screenplay to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and you DO NOT own it. -- Davidkevin ( talk) 04:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Also inline with my edit summary, take into account that the article is to be written for the layperson, who will not care about the distinction. ( Undue weight is probably the most relevant policy off the top of my head.)
As for selective breeding vice genetic engineering, please take into account also that the characters in the screenplays are not reliable sources; who is to say that one character is more correct than the other without that explicitly being voiced by the Star Trek creators? -- Izno ( talk) 06:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
life experience [...]: That and the following paragraph would be ad hominem, so it's not worth responding to.
script is not an explicit voice of what they intended, is it?
: You cannot guarantee it without the universe creators saying as such in an interview or the Star Trek Encyclopedia or some other out-of-universe source. Period. As I suggested, it's normal for universe creators to explain such differences away with "oh, that character isn't a reliable one" or "that character has a different viewpoint" (or a slew of other explanations; an example of differing viewpoints/reliability of the character coming into question would be several in the
Warcraft RPG, before those sources were actually officially removed from that universe's canon), so without such out-of-universe sourcing to suggest that the change in phrasing in the context of Star Trek was either deliberate or accidental, any suggestion of a
retcon in the article-proper is
original research. Period. (Again.)
Every. Single. Time.
Hyperbole. While I
don't doubt that your intentions are good, this particular change (and potentially your others, though I have not reviewed your contributions) are clearly not in keeping with at least one of the core policies of Wikipedia.
reliable resource
: Wikipedia will never be reliable. Useful, maybe. (This is perhaps quibbling, but I do not know how precise your verbiage is in this context.)
I give up.
: Wikipedia apparently needs a Wikipedia essay on
WP:Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Regardless, you shall always have the
right to vanish, so no-one is stopping you from leaving or choosing not to contribute. --
Izno (
talk) 02:07, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
There is no WP:CONSENSUS for these changes. Dbrodbeck ( talk) 11:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I would like to mentioned that DS9's "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" not only clearly stated that Khan was the product of DNA resequencing but that the The Eugenics Wars (ie WWIII) happened only 200 years ago which would put it in the 22nd century.--
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