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Title Change- Israel Hamas War
Since the talk page has been completely protected away from any discussion by smaller accounts, I say this here-
With the drones set to hit Israel soon enough, the wars, conflicts, should all be merged into ONE article. the conflicts have become intertwined.
IEditPolitics (
talk) 22:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I disagree. They're distinct enough to merit separate articles.
David O. Johnson (
talk) 22:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
That article would be too long, and then we'd have to split them into different articles again.
JohnR1Roberts (
talk) 22:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I disagree on merging here. It would be better to have this article with summaries of others and page links.
Alexanderkowal (
talk) 01:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Open warfare
Recent developments suggest a significant escalation from what has traditionally been characterized as a proxy conflict to more direct military engagements between Iran and Israel.
[1] In the
IranāIsrael proxy conflict the article reads āThis is the first direct military confrontation between the two countries since the beginning of the
IranāIsrael conflict.ā
Given these developments, I believe it may be necessary to reconsider the title of or make a
new article to ensure it accurately reflects the current nature of the conflict.
I would also like to note the date format, as technically the proxy war is over, should the date say 16 February 1985 ā
1 April 2024?
LuxembourgLover (
talk) 02:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The proxy war is over. As of this writing Israel has not struck Iran. We wait on events.
kencf0618 (
talk) 03:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
As of yet, I wouldn't consider it an end to the proxy conflict, since the
Al-Asad Airbase retaliation for the
Assassination of Qasem Soleimani didn't lead to a direct conflict between the United States and Iran. But this is still recent, nobody knows about the possible escalations that could follow suit.
Christophervincent01 (
talk) 04:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
With additional strikes being made by both sides, I think the "proxy" part of the contlifct is over.
LuxembourgLover (
talk) 15:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Requested move 15 April 2024
It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be
renamed and moved.
A bot will list this discussion on
requested moves' current discussions
subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the
closing instructions). Please base arguments on
article title policy, and keep discussion
succinct and
civil.
Iran and Israel are now attacking each other directly, and in the past they have carried out cyber attacks, direct covert operations and other actions other than supporting proxies. Therefore, the title is not correct and needs to be changed.
Parham wiki (
talk) 19:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Cfls (
talk) 21:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment - we have a separate article for the ongoing direct conflict in 2024, so we should ask ourselves whether we want to cover the proxy conflict separately or not. ā
AsarlaĆ(
talk) 21:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Whatever the new title is, the current one is no good because it's no longer just a only simple "proxy war". Therefore in favor of support removing "proxy" on title of article. That of 2024 is just a new phase and battle.
5.91.127.57 (
talk) 13:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose both The scope of the
IranāIsrael proxy conflict article is far bigger than just the direct conflict starting this year, going back to 1985. In addition, we already have an article titled
2024 IranāIsrael conflict, so there is no need to make another one. The
Russia and the IranāIsrael proxy conflict does not cover the direct conflict between Iran and Israel, but rather the proxy conflict many years before the direct one, so a move does not make sense.
Gƶdel2200 (
talk) 14:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
As we assess this, we may want to reevaluate whether "Iran--Israel proxy conflict" is even a framing that's actually supported by RS. Reading through an arbitrary selection of the article's sources, I'm not seeing examples of sources themselves calling conflict between Iran and Israel a proxy conflict--at most, they describe some groups as Iranian proxy groups (meanwhile, there is only one group identified as an Israeli proxy, which has at most engaged in a handful of targeted assassinations). We can't infer this lens of describing the conflict simply from the presence of proxies, that would be
WP:OR. signed, Rosguilltalk 14:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It looks like there's some coverage with this framing indexed by Google Scholar, but it's limited to publications we typically consider non-RS: undergraduate theses and student journals (e.g.
[1] in
Sentris). signed, Rosguilltalk 14:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Support ā Due to the escalation of the conflict.
Svartner (
talk) 12:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose both: the scope of this article is the description of almost 40 years of conflict operated mostly indirectly, so not a "direct conflict" as the renaming would imply. The fact that in these days things may escalate does not change this substantial aspect, nor it justifies renaming arbitrarily the past. Eventually, this relabelling for 1985-2024 period, would be up to future historians, not up to us living things directly as they happen. Furthermore, for the time being the conflict has not yet assumed the characteristics of a direct conflict. Even in the unlucky case things between Israel and Iran get worse, this article deserves an existence on its own, with the current title. It is the detailed background leading to today's situation, that would turn into something totally different if it turns out into a real direct war (hopefully not). If that would be the unlucky case, that should be described on an article totally apart. Changing the title, or at least, doing it now, would be hasty. We don't even know how things will evolve, we cannot predict the future and state, as for things are today, that "there is already a real conflict and all the past we considered as "proxy" has suddenly become a direct conflict".--
Superspritz (
talk) 13:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I think the points made here need to be refuted before any change
Alexanderkowal (
talk) 13:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose both: the outbreak of direct conflict between Iran and Israel doesn't mean that the proxy war never was a proxy war, it means the proxy war has ended. If the
Cold Warwent hot, I doubt the article on it would be called US-USSR conflict. The scope of this article should remain on the years of indirect warfare which led up to the current conflict, anyway.
Oppose both: per @
ZionniThePeruser rationale. There is already the article
2024 IranāIsrael conflict, that documents the current conflict, which could be renamed to
IranāIsrael conflict in the future if the conflict continues beyond 2024. Also per @
Superspritz comment, this article documents the history of the proxy conflict, whereby the content hasn't suddenly changed due to the current conflict/crisis.
Suggestion: Add hatnote to aricle for
2024 IranāIsrael conflict for people who want to read about the current conflict and not the proxy.
Oppose it's too soon to make this change based on recent events. Additionally, if events escalate, this article should still be kept in-place; if the USSR and the US went to war in the 80s, it's not like we would've renamed the "Cold War" article.
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 23:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose both Even if this became a "hot war" renaming this article and making the last four decades of proxy conflict moot would not be the correct path. The better way (if it is deemed to become a conflict which I have serious doubts on) would be to have this article cover 1985 to 2023 and then a new article on the conflict itself.
Yeoutie (
talk) 15:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1978 Iranian politics, which has been
designated as a contentious topic.
Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
An editor must be
aware before they can be sanctioned.
With respect to any reverting restrictions:
Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion.
Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as clear vandalism.
Clear vandalism of any origin may be reverted without restriction.
Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to
the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance.
If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to
Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
join the project where you can contribute to the
discussions and help with our
open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles
This page has archives. Sections older than 20 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present.
Title Change- Israel Hamas War
Since the talk page has been completely protected away from any discussion by smaller accounts, I say this here-
With the drones set to hit Israel soon enough, the wars, conflicts, should all be merged into ONE article. the conflicts have become intertwined.
IEditPolitics (
talk) 22:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I disagree. They're distinct enough to merit separate articles.
David O. Johnson (
talk) 22:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
That article would be too long, and then we'd have to split them into different articles again.
JohnR1Roberts (
talk) 22:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I disagree on merging here. It would be better to have this article with summaries of others and page links.
Alexanderkowal (
talk) 01:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Open warfare
Recent developments suggest a significant escalation from what has traditionally been characterized as a proxy conflict to more direct military engagements between Iran and Israel.
[1] In the
IranāIsrael proxy conflict the article reads āThis is the first direct military confrontation between the two countries since the beginning of the
IranāIsrael conflict.ā
Given these developments, I believe it may be necessary to reconsider the title of or make a
new article to ensure it accurately reflects the current nature of the conflict.
I would also like to note the date format, as technically the proxy war is over, should the date say 16 February 1985 ā
1 April 2024?
LuxembourgLover (
talk) 02:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The proxy war is over. As of this writing Israel has not struck Iran. We wait on events.
kencf0618 (
talk) 03:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
As of yet, I wouldn't consider it an end to the proxy conflict, since the
Al-Asad Airbase retaliation for the
Assassination of Qasem Soleimani didn't lead to a direct conflict between the United States and Iran. But this is still recent, nobody knows about the possible escalations that could follow suit.
Christophervincent01 (
talk) 04:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
With additional strikes being made by both sides, I think the "proxy" part of the contlifct is over.
LuxembourgLover (
talk) 15:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Requested move 15 April 2024
It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be
renamed and moved.
A bot will list this discussion on
requested moves' current discussions
subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the
closing instructions). Please base arguments on
article title policy, and keep discussion
succinct and
civil.
Iran and Israel are now attacking each other directly, and in the past they have carried out cyber attacks, direct covert operations and other actions other than supporting proxies. Therefore, the title is not correct and needs to be changed.
Parham wiki (
talk) 19:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Cfls (
talk) 21:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment - we have a separate article for the ongoing direct conflict in 2024, so we should ask ourselves whether we want to cover the proxy conflict separately or not. ā
AsarlaĆ(
talk) 21:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Whatever the new title is, the current one is no good because it's no longer just a only simple "proxy war". Therefore in favor of support removing "proxy" on title of article. That of 2024 is just a new phase and battle.
5.91.127.57 (
talk) 13:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose both The scope of the
IranāIsrael proxy conflict article is far bigger than just the direct conflict starting this year, going back to 1985. In addition, we already have an article titled
2024 IranāIsrael conflict, so there is no need to make another one. The
Russia and the IranāIsrael proxy conflict does not cover the direct conflict between Iran and Israel, but rather the proxy conflict many years before the direct one, so a move does not make sense.
Gƶdel2200 (
talk) 14:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
As we assess this, we may want to reevaluate whether "Iran--Israel proxy conflict" is even a framing that's actually supported by RS. Reading through an arbitrary selection of the article's sources, I'm not seeing examples of sources themselves calling conflict between Iran and Israel a proxy conflict--at most, they describe some groups as Iranian proxy groups (meanwhile, there is only one group identified as an Israeli proxy, which has at most engaged in a handful of targeted assassinations). We can't infer this lens of describing the conflict simply from the presence of proxies, that would be
WP:OR. signed, Rosguilltalk 14:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It looks like there's some coverage with this framing indexed by Google Scholar, but it's limited to publications we typically consider non-RS: undergraduate theses and student journals (e.g.
[1] in
Sentris). signed, Rosguilltalk 14:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Support ā Due to the escalation of the conflict.
Svartner (
talk) 12:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose both: the scope of this article is the description of almost 40 years of conflict operated mostly indirectly, so not a "direct conflict" as the renaming would imply. The fact that in these days things may escalate does not change this substantial aspect, nor it justifies renaming arbitrarily the past. Eventually, this relabelling for 1985-2024 period, would be up to future historians, not up to us living things directly as they happen. Furthermore, for the time being the conflict has not yet assumed the characteristics of a direct conflict. Even in the unlucky case things between Israel and Iran get worse, this article deserves an existence on its own, with the current title. It is the detailed background leading to today's situation, that would turn into something totally different if it turns out into a real direct war (hopefully not). If that would be the unlucky case, that should be described on an article totally apart. Changing the title, or at least, doing it now, would be hasty. We don't even know how things will evolve, we cannot predict the future and state, as for things are today, that "there is already a real conflict and all the past we considered as "proxy" has suddenly become a direct conflict".--
Superspritz (
talk) 13:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I think the points made here need to be refuted before any change
Alexanderkowal (
talk) 13:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose both: the outbreak of direct conflict between Iran and Israel doesn't mean that the proxy war never was a proxy war, it means the proxy war has ended. If the
Cold Warwent hot, I doubt the article on it would be called US-USSR conflict. The scope of this article should remain on the years of indirect warfare which led up to the current conflict, anyway.
Oppose both: per @
ZionniThePeruser rationale. There is already the article
2024 IranāIsrael conflict, that documents the current conflict, which could be renamed to
IranāIsrael conflict in the future if the conflict continues beyond 2024. Also per @
Superspritz comment, this article documents the history of the proxy conflict, whereby the content hasn't suddenly changed due to the current conflict/crisis.
Suggestion: Add hatnote to aricle for
2024 IranāIsrael conflict for people who want to read about the current conflict and not the proxy.
Oppose it's too soon to make this change based on recent events. Additionally, if events escalate, this article should still be kept in-place; if the USSR and the US went to war in the 80s, it's not like we would've renamed the "Cold War" article.
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 23:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose both Even if this became a "hot war" renaming this article and making the last four decades of proxy conflict moot would not be the correct path. The better way (if it is deemed to become a conflict which I have serious doubts on) would be to have this article cover 1985 to 2023 and then a new article on the conflict itself.
Yeoutie (
talk) 15:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply