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This
section of the article is almost competely unreferenced, and frankly, anyone getting to that point in the article after reading all the meat above will think they have stumbled down a rabbit hole and are now attending the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. The arguments presented are strongly POV and revisionist to the point of departing from reality. I think the section should be drastically cut back to mention that there are alternate/revisionist views of these events and to provide a footnote or two pointing the interested reader to appropriate sources for further reading.--
Paul 19:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Wow, you're right, what a wreck. Forgot about that mess....I'll see what I can do in a bit. K. Lastochka 19:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
It's gone. :) If we feel the need, we can maybe write a completely new better version of that section, but the current incarnation had to go. K. Lastochka 21:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
A question: at what point does a 'revolt' become a 'revolution?' I feel that this title is biased. I understand that there have been billboards up in Times Square calling it a revolution, but surely the definition of revolution does not fit what happened in Hungary in 1956. The Wikipedia definition: "A revolution is a drastic change that usually occurs relatively quickly." Altho this should actually be modified by 'social' or 'political', since a heart attack would not be called a revolution, it's not a bad definition. In Hungary there was a drastic change but it almost immediately went back to status ante. And worse. the American or French revolutions would not be called so if they had ended in French or Royalist victory respectively. They would be called 'rebellions' or 'revolts.' I feel that the title of this article should be changed. The encyclopedia cannot have its language be skewed by political partisanship, however much one may actually sympathize with those who suffered under and struggled against Soviet rule. [Kenvyn, Oct. 23/06]
While technically it was a revolt, the events are known to Hungarians as the Hungarian Revolution. The Boston Tea Party wasn't really a tea party, but that doesn't mean we need to change the name of what it is commonly referred to. Attila226 17:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
In a few short months this article has gone from being the most piss poor history of the revolution I had ever seen to being something worth reading!! I have to apologize for not having contributed anything (life has a nasty habbit of getting in the way of academics). I was in Budapest during the most recent political upheaval. It will be interesting to see how things play out 50 years later.10/18/06
I love the way this article looks now, but if we look at an from about a year ago, we find two things. One, the improvement has indeed been dramatic. But two, I like the last section and especially the "historical debate" section. I think the current version doesn't present enough interpretive viewpoints on the matter. Of course we must remain neutral, but might it not be a good idea to restore such a section, with proper citation, and give readers an idea of historians' debates on the subject? Biruitorul 08:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
We debated that "historical debate" paragraph. Finding the citations would have been too much of a pain and the section wasn't really all that informative, at least not enough to be worth the effort of cleaning it up. K. Lastochka 18:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, very soon. Lets make a list of things we need yet (but not in the official to-do box)
Thanks to NCurse, we have requested a judgement, and know exactly what we need to do. The very moment we (God willing) are successful, we may put it up for nomination here. I have put up the AID and FAC noms, would someone else like to do the honours this time? The actual nom follows a certain format - Ive built out one on the sandbox its Test 1. (though anyone could delete it. Please look and edit. Istvan 19:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC) I had to move it to my talk page as it was getting deleted (figures!) Istvan 19:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Please at least look up the word totalitarian before you throw it around. It's a problematic term because it has so many definitions, making it vague and incredibly POV. How can a government that controls every area of life be subject to a widespread revolution? -- TheMightyQuill 07:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Common to all definitions is the attempt to mobilize entire populations in support of the state and a political or religious ideology, and the intolerance of activities which are not directed towards the goals of the state, such as involvement with labour unions, non-sanctioned churches or opposition political parties.
I presume the issue is the replacement of "totalitarian" by "authoritarian" in the lead paragraph (first sentence) and the "Political repression and economic decline" subsection of the "Prelude" section. The Prelude "authoritarian" is already enhanced by the sentences that follow; there is little doubt that the reader will think that the Rákosi government was simply "strict". As a compromise position, and using the same logic (that the reader can understand from the context without being banged over the head with a "strong" word like "totalitarian"), leave it as authoritarian but add the second sentence, putting the word "authoritarian" in the context of policies that would incite a rebellion. Something like a mini-version of the Prelude section, that hits the points of occupation, economic failures of collectivism, show trials, etc. Again, not too blustery, just the facts. Ryanjo 16:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
How about "repressive" ? The descriptor is immediately backed up by the text that follows. Istvan 17:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Totalitarian seems a perfectly good word to use in describing Hungary under Mátyás Rákosi.
Sorry. Totalitarian is blatant violation of NPOV. Hungary was a multi-party socialist democracy during Matyas Rakosi. Parties within the Hungarian government at the time included Független Kisgazda-,Földmunkás és Polgári Párt and Nemzeti Parasztpárt
The preceding unsigned comment was added by the same IP user who has repeatedly posted revisionist "statistics" on other pages dealing with other crimes of the Soviet era. (check the page history and the IP user's previous contribs.) The People's Republic of Hungary was by no stretch of any sane imagination a "multiparty socialist democracy"--you make it sound like Sweden. K. Lastochka 20:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC) Also, the other claim that the PRH was not "totalitarian", that a revolution couldn't happen in a totalitarian state, well, that's just silly. Tsar Nicholas II was pretty damn totalitarian, and look what happened to him. K. Lastochka 21:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Fortunately for Wikipedia, such deranged points of view are not tolerated. You are incorrect about conditions of the People's Republic of Hungary as its constitution specifically as a socialist democracy in which power was exercised by the people. I don't know about you, but I think Hungarians would be more informed of conditions of their country rather than some CIA controlled western outlet.
The characterization of Sweden as a democratic socialist state simply laughable as the means of production in that country do not belong to the people. The comparison of the Tsar to the socialist democratic Hungarian People's Republic is also completely inappropriate as Hungary has been liberated from the monarchy since 1918. All of these simpleton buzzword adjectives like "totalitarian" are superfluous and are more importantly a violation of POV.
Power exercised by the people? Don't make me laugh! Whoever you are, you CLEARLY are not on the side of "the people." And I'm not some CIA-brainwashed Western pig, I HATE imperialism...whether it's the USA propping up dictatorships or the USSR propping up the dictatorships!! The Hungarian people clearly were unhappy with their "socialist democratic people's republic", that's why there was a friggin' REVOLUTION. Oh, and don't give me any bullshit about the revolution being backed by the CIA or something. The Americans did not lift a finger to help the PRO-DEMOCRACY rebels, even though they told them over the radio that they would help. Grrr... K. Lastochka 00:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that perhaps Nicolas II wasn't exactly the best example to use. I still don't quite understand your political rationale for not calling him a dictator/totalitarian, but I can agree that maybe using less "inflammatory" words is in the best interest of the article (so it won't attract any more komcsi trolls!) :) Cheers, K. Lastochka 13:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Read what I just said: "I can agree that maybe using less "inflammatory" words is in the best interest of the article." I am not advocating adding harsh adjectives. I was disagreeing with OTHER rationales offered for not using words like dictator and totalitarian. I know perfectly well why Wikipedia is here, and as for my comments on the FAC, we were ALL a little stunned at first by the number of POV complaints we were getting. I have since achieved a better perspective. As for my angry responses to the "comrade" who "contributed" yesterday, responses that were probably ill-conceived as I seem to have now lost credibility and painted myself as a flaming nationalist troll, I apologize for losing my head but in my defense, I doubt I'm the only person in the world who gets a bit touchy when dealing with blatant and ill-informed revisionists, especially those of a pro-Soviet variety, especially in this context.
By the way, I never thanked you for your advice and assistance since we went up for FAC. I would like to take the opportunity now to do so. :) You've been quite helpful! K. Lastochka 22:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
If you ment me above then "your very welcome"! Well I dont know what else to say, hopefully we all in agreement now. - Tutmosis 23:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I meant you, Tutmosis. :) Sorry again for repeatedly losing my temper yesterday and today, been under a lot of stress in the real world lately. I'm really not usually THIS excitable...:) So we're cool? K. Lastochka 00:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Cheers! :) K. Lastochka 02:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
20,000 post-revolution executions is the number I'm most familiar with, and although that number is alleged in the infobox, it isn't referenced. Later, in the aftermath section, even the CIA estimates only 1,200 (which seems low to me). We should definitely get a reference for this, but at very least, the numbers should be consistent. Or maybe I somehow read this wrong, since I've been staring at it for too long. I hope I'm wrong, because this is a pretty big foul up for a FA. -- TheMightyQuill 07:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
At this point, Its important to keep the page within its scope - i.e. covering the same ground as it did when it was declared FA. There are, however some edits which, IMHO are certainly fair game: Tightening references (as did TMQ and Paul) is of course important - Ive been combing the bibliography too, and working on articles linked from this one. Photoedits (without introducing POV in the captions) - (resisting comment on Khruchshev's barnstars was difficult) now that the AHF has declared them public domain, we may "upgrade" or move around some photos. Audio - having the audio clip of Nagy Imre's last radio broadcast would be big. However, it must be converted to OGG format. (its on the AHF 56 portal). Istvan 15:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Im not suggesting following any of these before the anniversary, only afterwards: See Samantha Smith (another FA article) - its a "spoken article" (swanky!) too bad I cant get it to play - perhaps worth emulating. See Warsaw Uprising (also FA) they have a template Template:Warsaw Uprising which links to several sub-articles. This might be a good place to put sub-sections (photogallery, the UN report, quotes from famous people about 56, maybe even a POV/editorial debate (basically all ancillary stuff that doesnt belong in an encyclopedia article). It may be a good release valve for all the POV language if people have a place to vent their spleens about it - like a newspaper giving a big story both a lead article plus a separate editorial. Istvan 15:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Excellent idea about the template! I unfortunately have no idea how to create templates--anyone know? K. Lastochka 20:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Great idea. In the main article I'd still like to incorporate the part about the revolution outside Budapest that I highlighted here. In the template, we could have one article on historical interpretations, that I alluded to here, and one on cultural representations–monuments, celebrations, portrayals in Communist and post-Communist Hungary, but also its reflection in art, as a number of novels, poems, films, songs, paintings, etc. have dealt with the Revolution. So I endorse the idea of post-October 23 expansion in a number of directions. Biruitorul 01:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As for its reflection in art, I just remembered that there is speculation that Shostakovich's 11th Symphony, despite being subtitled "The Year 1905" and purportedly describing the ill-fated popular uprising in Russia in that year, was actually inspired by the 56 revolution, if not an outright musical depiction thereof. Will have to give that one another listen, maybe it's worth including in a list of cultural representations? K. Lastochka 14:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just been listening to it. :) Great piece, Shostakovich at his best. I have a very good book about him ("Shostakovich: A Life Remembered", by Elizabeth Wilson), and it is pretty clear that 56 was why he wrote that symph., will post some quotes later. It is not specifically about 56--it is meant to describe (on one level) the failed democratic revolution in Russia in 1905, but also in a much more universal sense, the tragedies of all suppressed freedom fights, all oppressed nations etc, and 56 was pretty clearly the impetus. K. Lastochka 03:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm horrible with sound files--tried to e-mail an iTunes file to a friend once and nearly crashed both our computers. :) Although if anyone is better than that, the Nagy Imre clip would be fabulous to have. Anyone? (maybe there are some guidelines on the commons?) I'm toying with the idea of setting up a whole auxilliary page to this article, specifically about various perspectives and cultural reactions to 56--we can put a bit about the symphony, some poems (if there are any good ones...there seemed to be some on the AHF but didn't get a chance to read them closely), novels, movies etc., maybe also links to various international newpaper editorials about the uprising. (Nice analogy about M*A*S*H by the way!) Your comment about "stay vigilant" reminded me, I think it would be prudent to fix whatever little details we can tomorrow and Saturday, then lock the page on Saturday night to prevent any possible last-minute vandalism--I've been a bit nervous about that since the komsci-troll incident of a few days ago. :) After all our work, I'd hate to see something ridiculous up on the main page... K. Lastochka 04:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
BTW I will not be around at all tomorrow (Friday) but on Saturday will be able to help out. Cheers! K. Lastochka 04:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This seems to be developing nicely. I haven't read any novels on the revolution, but I have seen two great films that touch upon it. One is Szerelem by Károly Makk, which features a man imprisoned during the revolution returning from prison, and mainly explores the effects of his imprisonment on his wife and mother. The other is Peter Watkins' The Forgotten Faces, in which Watkins recreated scenes from the revolution on a street in Canterbury, England. I can tell you it's so realistic that, until the credits rolled, I kept asking myself, "How did he manage to film this stuff?" It really is quite authentic in feel. I'm sure there are other films – does anyone know of more? Biruitorul 21:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's "Freedom's Fury", but I somehow doubt that one will be any good... K. Lastochka 15:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Of course we'll mention it! :) K. Lastochka 23:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just started the page Cultural representations of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Needs a LOT of work. K. Lastochka 19:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It looks as if the the Andropov and Khrushchev photos have been deleted.-- Paul 04:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they're completely gone. There's absolutely no Andropov photo on the Wiki, and the only good Khr. photo is also under threat of deletion. I think especially the Andropov photo would work well there since most people find it interesting that he was Soviet ambassador to Hungary in 1956. If anyone can get another photo (that's not copyvio) then please put it up. Istvan 06:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
There is one photo of Krchs. showing him as the Time Man of the Year for 1958, if there isn't any other pictures, maybe you could use that (possibly cutting out, the red Time border)-- Dami 17:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
There is irrefutable evidence that marchers and demonstrators were already armed as early as 3 p.m. on 23 October. Ironically, the evidence for this is in a book entirely sympathetic with the revolution, and fully on the side of the freedom fighters.
A large photograph, spread over two pages, shows four demonstrators, 3 men and a woman, marching side by side at the head of a very large procession, entirely filling the bridge and the sidewalks (the university students' march from Pest to Buda, on their way to the Bem statue). The weapons (rifles) are being carried openly, even demonstratively, by the four at the head of the procession. It is, therefore, historically incorrect to state or to imply that AVH forces opened fire on 'unarmed marchers' or 'unarmed demonstrators'. (This is, however, not a justification of the bloodshed that followed and it should not be taken as such.)
Reg Gadney: Cry Hungary! Uprising 1956 (Introduction by George Mikes), publ. Weidenfeld, London (1986) photograph on pp. 20-21. ISBN 0-297-78960-0 Gk1956 14:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting! Is it only those four at the head of the parade that are armed, or is everybody packing heat? It's quite conceivable that those four armed protestors weren't actually AT the rally outside the broadcasting station, and that crowd that the AVH fired on WAS unarmed. Good catch though... K. Lastochka 14:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should say "peaceful" demonstrators instead of specifically saying "unarmed"? K. Lastochka 15:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Except, the photo does not show the event in question--that is, the protest outside the broadcasting headquarters, where the ÁVH fired on the protestors. According to your description, the photo shows the march across the city earlier that afternoon. Unless someone can produce a photo of armed demonstrators at the broadcasting station, the article must stay as it is. K. Lastochka 19:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with K. Lastochka: We have the UN report, testimony from contemporary witnesses, even if they were refugees, and then a photograph, which is not taken at the radio station. How can we presume to overturn the document we are using as a reference, using a picture that doesn't even refer to the event? I would suggest a footnote at "unarmed demonstrators", which mentions that there is photographic evidence that some demonstrators at the earlier protest march carried firearms, but that the UN report specifically reports that the radio crowd was unarmed, until supplied from the ambulance. This detail is important, since is was an inciting event for the widespread armed resistance. Ryanjo 00:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The protestors marching to the parliament were completely unarmed, even the soldiers marching with them were unarmed as the Hungarian army was banned from public displays of weaponry.
To some events there is now a better source than the UN Report - the recording of the Hungarian Radio. It is pretty clear, that there was about 30 minutes between the first shots by the AVH guards (whether these first shots were aimed at the demonstrators or not cannot be deducted from the recording of course) and the first shots from the demonstrators. In any case, by 9 p.m. the first AVH officer was shot dead.
The recording of the Hungarian Radio also clearly shows that Gerő did not call the demonstrators mob (csürhe). The word was actually used by Nagy at arriving to Parliament in the evening (and also called them counter-revolutionaries). However, I cannot source this, though the information is reliable. However, anybody can listen to Gerő's speech and hence the statement in the article is inaccurate.
As to Kossuth Square, there is still no evidence about the people who shot from the roof of the Ministry of Agriculture, thus the definitive statement is highly problematic in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 10:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I know. Unfortunately, the Hungarian Radio sometimes puts on media files, then takes them off, let's hope that eventually it will have a permanent section. Also, most of the people was convinced that Gerő used the word, though he couldn't, as he read a written speech agreed in the Politbureau (though not all members were present). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 15:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
An editor just added the following text:
On November 2, 1956, the Eisenhower administration issued the statement "The government of the United States does not look with favor upon governments unfriendly to the Soviet Union on the borders of the Soviet Union." [4] [5]
This is third-hand information from someone not in a position to know. If there were such telegrams with such language, I would think there would be a copy of of same in the National Archives or the Soviet Archives. It seems to me unwise to include this claim without a better quality source. Other comments?-- Paul 18:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
After reading through the two interviews with Gergely Pongracz, I further doubt that any telegram (if it existed) was influential in Khrushchev's decision to end the Revolution:
"Following the long meeting of the 28th, the most important of the Soviet leaders attended two receptions on the 29th. One was in celebration of the Turkish national day, the other on the occasion of the visit to Moscow of the Prime Minister of Afghanistan. At the first, Ambassador Bohlen of the United States had an important conversation with Marshal Zhukov; Bohlen once again called attention to Secretary of State Dulles's speech delivered two days earlier in Dallas. Dulles had said that the American administration would not consider a Hungary liberated from Soviet rule as a potential ally. (Foreign Relations of the United States 1955-1957, Eastern Europe, Vol. XXV (Washington, DC: Government Printing Office, 1990. 336.)"
Here is a longer extract of Dulles comments in Dallas on October 27 [9]. In addition, another well-referenced analysis of Soviet and American interplay over the response to the Revolution (Csaba Békés: The 1956 Revolution and World Politics, see the section titled "The United States" [10]) has a detailed discussion on what the US State Department said to the Soviets and why Dulles said: ‘We do not look upon these nations as potential military allies.’ It is unlikely that the Hungarians were able to hear the complete context of Dulles statement. Could a misunderstanding of this context be the source of the comments by Gergely Pongracz? Ryanjo 03:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It is clear from the source that the Dulles quote was given out of context - I have removed it from the text, but am happy if you re-insert it in proper context as you wish, with ref. We're up in less than 24 hours now. Best to pick the nits now. Istvan 04:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The statement in the lead, which reads: "Although it had previously agreed to a ceasefire, the Politburo reversed itself and now moved to quash the revolution." Is unsourced and I believe it to be mistaken. Neither the Politburo nor any other Soviet authority had agreed to a cease-fire; there is no such Agreement! It is true that Nagy had "ordered" a cease-fire [note the word "ordered"] but that order was always meant to be an order issued to the AVH, the Hungarian Army, and the civilian freedom fighters. Nagy had no authority over the Soviets. The UNITED NATIONS REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON THE PROBLEM OF HUNGARY, in section 67, states: " On 28 October, Mr. Nagy’s Government ordered a cease-fire.". Subsequent references in the Report to cease-fire are all based on this reference. I have placed a {{fact}}tag on this sentence in the lead. Please do not remove it without first making clear what you are relying on for the staement that the Politburo reversed itself. The Soviet's withdrawal of forces from Bp was no more than a tactical withdrawal from the city, to lick their wounds and to regroup their forces. That's a long way short of "Politburo reversed itself". Gk1956 19:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
In order to prove its dedication to peace to the world, the Soviet Union issued the Declaration of the Government of the USSR on the Principles of Development and Further Strengthening of Friendship and Cooperation between the Soviet Union and other Socialist States on October 30, 1956. This document illustrates the lengths to which Khrushchev destalinized foreign relations. In it, the Soviet Union admits that Moscow had made not only errors but "egregious mistakes" in Eastern Europe and that it committed "violations of the principle of equality in relations between socialist countries." It even suggested the removal of Soviet troops from Warsaw Pact countries. In conclusion, the Declaration pledged to "observe the full sovereignty of each socialist state."
Perhaps "agreeing to a ceasfire" is an imprecise way to state the facts, but the Presidium does appeared to have "reversed itself" from a policy of relative laissez-faire and withdrawal. Would you care to suggest a better wording?Under the auspices of the October 30 Declaration, there was a Presidium meeting in which the leadership in Moscow considered a withdrawal from Hungary. Khrushchev, Zhukov, Molotov and others conceded in a Presidium meeting on October 30 that "the peaceful path - the path of troop withdrawals and negotiations should be followed in Hungary" (Kramer, Mark. “New Evidence on Soviet Decision-Making and the 1956 Polish and Hungarian Crises.” Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars: Cold War International History Project, www.cwihp.si.edu). Thus, it appeared that the Soviet Union was ready to allow events in Hungary to take their own course."
Anyone here already adept at Wikisource? There are at least two articles that belong there - Albert Camus' The Blood of the Hungarians and Bibó István's For Freedom and Truth (both linked from this article, and both now on the EnWiki) - and there may be others... as such, I anticipate that on 23 Oct, we would get tons of comments about these being in the wrong place, maybe even moving or deleting them, etc. If any of the editors here is good on Wikisource, could you please move those over? Istvan 06:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Based on the advice in {{ move to wikisource}}, I've moved For Freedom and Truth. No time for the other one right now... K issL 10:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The reference provided for the sentence: "it [the Politburo] had previously announced a willingness to negotiate the complete withdrawal of troops" does not support the sentence.
What the reference cited states is: "[T]he Soviet Government is prepared to enter into the appropriate negotiations with the government of the Hungarian People's Republic and other members of the Warsaw Treaty on the question of the presence of Soviet troops on the territory of Hungary."
False, corrupt, and misleading citations, once the staple wares of Szabad Nép and Pravda, were wares the Hungarian freedom fighters despised and fought against. Gk1956 13:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Please take note that the above issue has altered the structure of the article - previously, the summary paragraphs bore no references, and as such, simply summarised the text below. Now, we have a ref and a tag. I would recommend removing both, and rewriting the text to accurately reflect the body of the article below. I would recommend using the sentence "Although the Soviet army observed the ceasefire and began negotiating a withdrawal of forces from Hungary,...". The text body below must also be altered to include the referenced statements - (the Soviets observing of the ceasefire, the Pravda editorial and announcement, the invitation to Tököl, etc.) to back it up. But it should stay a summary of the text itself. I will make the changes in a few hours unless someone objects. Istvan 15:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The meaning of the sentence is morphing and wandering. The original point, and the clarified point is that the Soviets first decided to use diplomacy and withdrawl troops, then they changed their minds and crushed the revolution. This is what the original text meant, and what the modified text says. Keeping this in mind and leaving the details for the body of the article, the following text is true and should be left in the intro: Although it had previously announced a willingness to negotiate the withdrawal of troops, the Politburo reversed itself and now moved to quash the revolution.-- Paul 15:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is pretty clear, isn't it?"Under the auspices of the October 30 Declaration, there was a Presidium meeting in which the leadership in Moscow considered a withdrawal from Hungary. Khrushchev, Zhukov, Molotov and others conceded in a Presidium meeting on October 30 that "the peaceful path - the path of troop withdrawals and negotiations should be followed in Hungary" (Kramer, Mark. “New Evidence on Soviet Decision-Making and the 1956 Polish and Hungarian Crises.” Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars: Cold War International History Project, www.cwihp.si.edu). Thus, it appeared that the Soviet Union was ready to allow events in Hungary to take their own course."
It doesnt matter. We are here to record a history from historical references; not read tea leaves, psychoanalyse or guess intent. There are ample references which show that the Soviet Government announced not only an intent/preparation/willingness to negotiate a withdrawal of forces from Hungary, but also actually entered into these negotiations, as it prepared to crush the revolution. There are the above citations to which must be added the Nagy-Andropov communications. To be as generous to the Kremlin as possible is to call this a "reversal", to be less so is to call it "deception" (which certainly worked - defenses were unprepared, and the Hungarian chiefs of staff were under arrest from the outset) But the fact remains - Soviets intitially hesitated, and then were talking peace as they put their military into position to attack Budapest. Remember the Soviets had surrounded Bp 30 mins before the Hungarian delegation even arrived at Thököl. Istvan 21:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states: Although it is widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet military to crush the Revolution, minutes of the October 31 meeting of the Presidium of the Soviet Party indicate that this declaration was only one of several contributing factors. This appears to have the chronology wrong. The CPSU decided to "restore order" on October 31st. On Nov. 1st, alarmed by reports of troop movements into Hungary from the Soviet Union, Nagy declared neutrality and withdrew from the Warsaw Pact. So, unless I am reading the sources and documents incorrectly, withdrawing from the Warsaw Pact was a reaction to hostile moves from the Soviets, not the other way around. Agree, disagree? Further, since the Warsaw Pact announcement was made on November 1, it could not have been a topic of discussion at the Oct. 31 Presidium meeting. Does the article need rewording?-- Paul 01:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
There was a single thing that Khrushchev spoke about at length and repetitiously that was protecting the prestige of the empire. A military pullout from Hungary would give evidence to the weakness of the Soviet Union, and the Western powers would take advantage of that. “If we depart from Hungary, it will give a great boost to the Americans, English, and French -- the imperialists. They will perceive it as weakness on our part and will go onto the offensive. ... To Egypt they will then add Hungary.”(47) Interestingly enough Khrushchev considered the Suez case being decided already at this moment. He also emphasized the domestic political effects of a grave loss of prestige. "[By withdrawing] we would then be exposing the weakness of our positions. Our Party will not accept if we do this."(48) The reference was much rather to the "circles" capable of influencing the leadership than to the grass roots party members, mainly to the army, to state security and the apparatus. What turned out to be fundamentally important was the protection of the Soviet Union's position as a world power and the retaining of the unity of the leadership. Apparently, none of the other issues influencing the decision (ideology, the maintainance of the image, pure military and strategic considerations) had sufficient weight in Khrushchev's thinking to justify a hard-line decision.
Although it is widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet military to crush the Revolution, minutes of the October 31 meeting of the Presidium of the Soviet Party indicate that this declaration was
only one of severalnot a contributing factors.
Good catch - The sentence is best off stating that the mistaken belief (neutrality caused invasion) is wrong because the decision for invasion came before the decision for neutrality, therefore it couldnt have caused it. How about:
Although it is widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet military to crush the Revolution, minutes of the meeting of the Presidium of the Soviet Party reveal that the Kremlin had decided on October 31 to invade, one day before Hungary declared neutrality on November 1.
or something like that. (are you sure about the title "Presidium of the Soviet Party"?) That settles it pretty clearly. Istvan 04:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Should we take off the bullet, and say the following:Hungarian neutrality and withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact represented a breach in the Soviet defensive buffer zone of satellite nations.[71] Soviet's fear of invasion from the West cemented their insistance upon a defensive buffer of allied states on her borders.
The reason to leave the "buffer state" sentence here is that it also corrects a common assumption that fear of Western invasion was an immediate cause of the 4 November attack. Ryanjo 15:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)Although Hungarian neutrality and withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact might have caused a breach in the Soviet defensive buffer zone of satellite nations, [71] fear of invasion from the West did not influence the decision to move against Hungary.
I have uploaded a file of Nagy Imre's appeal. Peter O. ( Talk) 02:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Score! and thank you. Now if I could just figure out how to play it... I plan to put it right below his radio broadcast photo. Istvan 04:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, Real Player will play it (but only from my desktop, not the wikipedia!) This is a very very powerful clip, especially for Hungarians (its his voice in Hungarian followed by an English translation) and it should go up on our page. Trouble is, getting it there and getting it to work... I cant get the file to play via linking it into the caption of the Nagy Imre pic. It keeps displaying the filename which links to the file page, not the file itself. Anyone know a workaround? Perhaps getting a small speaker icon onto the caption of the Nagy Imre image (at the radio desk) that opens the sound file in Real Player? Tall order I know, but Im sure someone knows how to do it easily. Istvan 05:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
OK again, got it up there, but cant play it. Can anyone else? For me, it loads the file and opens real player, but the program requres "additional software" that it cant find on the web. Saving and double-clicking will play it fine (but most readers wont have the patience for this). Can anyone else hear the clip? Istvan 05:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Try Templates Listen(more standalone, better into the text body) or Audio(for inline use, like image caption use):
{{Audio|ImreNagy.ogg|Imre Nagy Speech}}:
{{Listen|filename=ImreNagy.ogg|title=Imre Nagy Speech|description=Radio speech of Imre Nagy in Hungarian and English translation|format=[[Ogg]]}}:
--
Dami 12:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, great clip! I wish to God I understood Hungarian better, I can only pick out about a third of what he's saying, but it's so great to have it! Thanks so much Peter O.!!! K. Lastochka 15:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Dami, I switched from your version A to your version B but could never get that little speaker icon to pop up. If someone, anyone, could get that little icon to appear on the page, then please do so as this really puts this article over the top. Istvan 16:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It must be an overlap problem with the picture. I put the picture on the right, so now I see the icon, hope I didn't ruin the "composition" of the pictures this way.-- Dami 16:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there any way to stick that clip in the box with the picture of Nagy Imre? As is, it's just sort of out there floating around randomly--looks pretty sloppy, but my (botched, subsequently cancelled) attempt to put in in the picture box looked even worse. :) K. Lastochka 18:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me, that seems to see that clip being in the right place all the time after the section discussing his speech and before the next section. I admit the image on the other hand seems to be where it finds its place, but actually its always between the same two words. The result is that at 1024*768 resoulution its right next to the paragraph discussing the speech, in other resolutions its in a way different paragraph. Putting the image in the right paragraph might have the negative consequences of it overlapiing the "sound icon" of the clip, but if the image is made smaller it just might be right.-- Dami 19:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I think at this point it still worked...-- Dami 19:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Its not working for me. Can anyone else hear it? Istvan 02:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Uh-oh, not working for me either... K. Lastochka 03:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I get this error message each time:
Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Lost connection to MySQL server during query in /home/gmaxwell/public_html/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php on line 31
Couldn't connect to database: Lost connection to MySQL server during query
Looks like the in-browser audio playback isnt working properly. Istvan 03:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Same error message for me. HELP! K. Lastochka 03:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I cant get the "play in browser" to work, but clicking on the main link ("Imre Nagy Final Broadcast") will play in windows media player, if you get the .ogg codecs plugins from http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/ (It plays just fine). But the "play in browser" not working is really rotten luck because its such a powerful clip. Istvan 04:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
That's really weird though, "play in browser" worked just fine earlier when I clicked on it here on the talk page. K. Lastochka 05:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
of course NOW it works.....typical! Istvan 14:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Well isn't THAT just the luck of the Hungarians....ridiculous. :) K. Lastochka 14:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
On 20 October, 2006, The Upper House of the Russian Parliament held an Extraordinary Session and issued the following statement: "Whilst we are not answerable for the actions of the Soviet leadership half a century ago, we accept a moral responsibility for the consequences of our past, and we trusts that present-day Hungarian society will appreciate our sincere regrets for the events of October 1956". The statement was carried by 118 votes (120 in favour, 2 abstentions). The statement goes on to pay tribute also to Hungary's "efforts and human sacrifices in pursuit of its right to justice and independence". Gk1956 09:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Nice! Too little too late, of course, but it's appreciated for what it is. K. Lastochka 15:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
They should have written "November" instead of "October". Istvan 16:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Ooh--good catch. Wonder if that little slip was not accidental? *Sigh*.... K. Lastochka 18:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The Stalin statue was on Stalin Square. Stalin Square was on Dozsa Gyorgy ut, (XIV district), about half way between Heroes Square and Thokoly ut. The statue was erected in 1951, on the site of the former Catholic Regnum Marianum Church, which was demolished to make room for the statue. Gk1956 10:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Reading the students 16 points, one may find 21 demands by counting each sentence that begins with "we demand" Points 5, 8, 9 - 12 and 14 all carry two such demands. (points 15 and 16 are not demands but statements) Point 3 does not use the word but is a demand nonetheless. Still, "16 Points" is *most* correct as it is unquestionably accurate. I would not stand on "14 demands" however, and will edit that page accordingly. Istvan 16:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone please check this reference and remove it if inappropriate: "Gati, Charles (2006). Failed Illusions: Moscow, Washington, Budapest and the 1956 Hungarian Revolt. Stanford University Press. ISBN 0804756066. (page 64)." This reference is cited in support of an earlier the statement (now edited) that " By January 1955, he [Rakosi] had Nagy discredited and removed from office."
Nagy was not stripped of Office until April 1955! If the citation is inappropriate please remove it. (I can't check as I have no access to the book.) Gk1956 20:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Depending on the browser and display, the image sizes can screw up the layout (as I only recently discovered). The samller they are, the safer they are (esp. for widescreen layouts). I had increased their size to be more impactful, and it worked well, as long as I had a sidebar (bookmarks) taking up 20% of the screen, but at full screen they stick out into the next sections, dirupting the flow. At this point (less than 2 hours till curtain) if you see an image thats too big then make it smaller, but if you think its too small please just leave it. Istvan 21:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I shrank a few a little bit, nothing drastic though. K. Lastochka 22:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
OK guys, great work. Curtain's up. Let's keep it all together over the next 24h. Istvan 00:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
We did it!! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :) Hajrá Magyarország! All for you, 56'ers! K. Lastochka 00:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
And thanks for your help early on, Kirill! K. Lastochka 00:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello Titoxd, I clarified the ambiguous link to point to the CPSU CC Presidium (later "politburo"). As for DISZ, MEFESZ, and the later KISZ, these Hungarian names (DISZ - Dolgozó Ifúsági Szövetség, roughly "League of Working Youth") it was felt that their inclusion would only make the article a more difficult read, as, e.g. this one is already introduced as the "official communist student union" which already tells 99.9% of the story for 99.9% of readers. Istvan 00:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I just want to congratulate everyone who worked on this article. I came across it a couple of weeks ago after reading about the revolution in a newspaper article, and I was happy to find all the basic information I was after. You've done a great job!
Spebudmak 04:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The link that leads to the BBC website concerning Nagy's reburial no longer works.
Someone copied the Camus letter "Blood of the Hungarians" over to Wikisource, but did not amend the link from the article (I knew this was going to happen). I dont know how to link from there. Could someone please repair it? Thanks. Istvan 01:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Done. :) K. Lastochka 02:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Istvan 02:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually looks like what I did wasn't quite right--somebody fixed it though. K. Lastochka 02:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Your edit got reverted, I couldnt fix it properly, so I just restored the text in the wikipedia article (no harm in having it in both places) (you'd think) Still, it would be best if someone could link it inline directly to the Wikisource. Istvan 02:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
That's precisely what I tried to do, why did it get reverted? K. Lastochka 03:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Albert Camus would call it absurd, for sure (pa-da-bing). Your edit wasn't really reverted, so much as restored to the previous (unsatisfactory) structure (not by me). If nobody could help with the interwiki link, then I figured its best to put the text back in the wikipedia article. No harm no foul. Istvan 04:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please block all these anonymous IP vandals from messing with the article?! It's getting really annoying! K. Lastochka 14:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Would all vandals please be so kind as to make your mischief somewhat CLEVER, so we can at least have a laugh while we're cleaning it up?! I fail to see what's so hysterically funny about the word "penis". K. Lastochka 23:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
True, true...just some wishful thinking. :) K. Lastochka 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
While I believe that the uprising was justified, I do NOT think that it was part of the Cold War, unless one counts some kind of covert CIA involvement. The Cold War was between Soviet and US allied forces. This was between the Hungarian populace and Soviet Union. Also I haven't heard it referred to as a Revolution, but if it is, then surely the Spanish Civil War and the Irish Uprising must be counted as one. Not to mention the Intifada.-- MacRusgail 16:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Shakura that it makes sense to consider the 56 revolt part of the cold war. I do not agree with Nonencyclopedic that the article has been written by "cheerleaders" "incapable of writing an NPOV article" with "no decent grasp of what source referencing is about." It's true that some very proud Hungarians have been working on this page, I am not ashamed of that. But we have been very diligent about citing sources, and except for some minor battles, have addressed the NPOV concerns that have come up to this point. K. Lastochka 16:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyone wanting to remove the NPOV tag has my support. The user that placed it (twice now) has yet to give a compelling reason, IMHO. Istvan 18:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought these were supposed to be locked when featured.....
Most (if not all) of the images in the article portray the rebels exeptionally from the good side (not suprisingly though, if you take a look at the name of the organization they were taken from). I believe some photos like this and this, which depict bad actions comitted by the rebels, should be added. I'm not sure if these images are copyrighted, I've just tried to connect the archive, will be waiting for their reply now.-- Shakura 16:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Yuck, should we really put such gruesome pictures on a public internet site? We mention that some Soviet troops and communist sympathisers were brutalized by revolutionaries, do we really have to hit people over the head with it? K. Lastochka 16:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Imre Nagy, Pal Maleter and Géza Losonczy have their articles - could Miklos Gimes be translated from the Finnish and Attila Szigethy be given one (and some photos for several). Jackiespeel 17:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The article starts with the format "month date, year,", but then moves to "date month." I began scrolling from the top and changing them to the former format for consistency (and also to remove the excessive date wikilinks). I'm just letting people know it has nothing to do with personal preference, I really don't care which format is used, just because I started from the top in editing the article. - IstvanWolf 22:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
why is there a picture of stalin's dead body in this article?
This isn't a bad point. Perhaps this could be made clearer? - TheMightyQuill 05:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, we set out to do something big and accomplished it precisely as planned. Special thanks to Paul h and Ryanjo for doing so much of the work - checking refs, editing, answering challenges, etc. Thanks to K Lastochka for being the spark plug and drivetrain and getting the word out. Also to Alensha for help in publicising this project. Thanks to our first magyar admin NCurse for intervening in a very timely manner to safeguard our photos from deletion on the Wiki Commons (they almost all got taken down!) Thanks to Mr. Bagdi and Mr. Kocsis of the AHF for providing those photos and putting the permission blurb on their website. Thanks to Dami and Peter O. for helping for several reasons, especially getting that Nagy Imre clip up and going. All those who helped in the review process, esp. Kirill Lokshin. TMQ, Tutmosis, Raul654, Biruitorul and (Im sorry if I forget anyone) without whom we would have simply made "just another very good article" somewhere in the background. But remember, the main credit goes to those who fell doing something that very few have ever been brave enough to do, and it is right and good to remember them, and for they and their families to feel our admiration and know that we do not forget them. Thanks guys (and gals). Istvan 01:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I just said pretty much the same thing on the magyar noticeboard, although not as eloquently. :) It's been so much fun! You guys have been great to work with and I hope we can do this again sometime (1848 article, anyone?) IT WAS ALL FOR YOU, 56'ERS!!!!!!!! WE WILL NEVER, EVER FORGET YOU!!! K. Lastochka 02:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
"Well done gentlemen (and ladies if any)"--yep: me and Alensha, for two. Military/political history is no longer an exclusive mens' club! :) K. Lastochka 04:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Alternatively, one might say the 20 year-old "adults" have been so bombarded with the tales of heroism and violent reaction to communist oppression that they felt the need to re-enact these acts of violence in the streets of Budapest, foolishly equating the bumbling incompetence/arrogance of the current prime minister with the cruel dictatorship of Rákosi. Beware, although history is of utmost importance, the lessons imparted are not always the ones that are intended to be taught. -- 70.71.155.24 05:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The thing that really bothers me about the mess in BP is, the dumb hooligans who have been making all the trouble are discrediting the legitimate complaints of the peaceful/not far-right protestors out there. If I were in BP I would be at the peaceful protests, just not in with the hooligans. Unfortunately, it seems that in the eyes of the world, ALL the events in BP are considered to be the work of hard-right wackos and rowdies. Grrr.... K. Lastochka 17:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
An editor has changed "communist" to "socialist" in this sentence: "as well as the role of Hungary in providing refuge to East Germans during the 1989 protests against that socialist government," and pointed to the article on the GDR for backup. The GDR article currently refers to "socialist state," but on the talk page there is voluminous discussion and absolutely no consensus. As the lawyers might say, "socialist" is a necesary part of the description, but is not sufficient. The GDR was socialist, but it was effectively a one-party state with a repressive and totalitarian political climate enforced by the hated secret police. East Germans didn't risk being shot at the Berlin Wall because they were unhappy with the results of the last free election. And finally, the sentence above makes no sense with "socialist." What were these people fleeing from? Confiscatory taxation? I'm changing it back to "communist."-- Paul 15:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The GDR was socialist, but it was effectively a one-party state with a repressive and totalitarian political climate enforced by the hated secret police.
You have demonstrated ignorance in regard to political science. If you knew anything about communism, you would know that it has no government and has no social classes. This was not the case in DDR. The DDR constitution as well as the constitution of other socialist states including USSR distinctly identified themselves as socialist. Communism was only ever spoken in the future tense e.g "on the road to communism".
You my friend are a liar. DDR was not a one-party state. The following political parties were present in the legislature of DDR:
Socialist Unity Party
Christian Democratic Union
Democratic Farmers' Party of Germany
Liberal Democratic Party of Germany
National Democratic Party of Germany
Revisionists and liars, wow, you really only get a chance to be called that on Wikipedia!
This article does not at all hide its sympathy for the terroristic, fascistic rebels who destroyed Hungary in 1956. While I myself have a POV of the events, it would be appreciated if there was a balanced tone to this. To call the 1956 violence in Hungary a revolution is just as POV as calling it a counter-revolution.
Evidence shows that this movement was in fact staunchly sympathetic to the reactionary Mindzenty and hugely anti-Semitic against Matyas Rakosi and Erno Gero. Here is what the prominent French politician Maurice Thorez whose party controlled 25% of the legislature had to say:
After the collapse of Hitlerism the Hungarian people had established the foundations of a socialist system. But errors in economic organization, and errors that compromised the links between the government and the popular masses had been committed by the former leadership of the Worker’s Party. In addition, a clique of traitors, grouped around Nagy, took advantage of the circumstances to openly play the enemy’s game and deliver Hungary to the counter-revolution, which had been plotting in the shadows. In fact, reactionary elements had maintained ties in a country that had suffered for a quarter of a century — from 1920-1945 — the fascist dictatorship of Horthy. Under slogans aimed at fooling the people, Hungarian fascists in Budapest massacred militant Communists, sacked Party offices, burned books, and attacked public buildings...Some of these fascists were to participate as activists in the plot of Algiers, as well as in attacks against worker’s organizations in France.[1]
The return of the capitalists and the large landowners, the reconstitution of a reactionary and revanchard base in the heart of the Danube basin, the threat of aggression against the socialist states and of war in Europe: such was the program of Hungarian counter-revolution, encouraged from without by the imperialist powers — in the first place by American imperialism — and acting within by trickery, violence, and betrayal of the national interests. By responding — in conformity with the Warsaw pact — to the call for assistance sent out by the worker and peasant government of Budapest, in lining up at the side of the workers of Hungary, in aiding them in putting down fascist barbarism, the Soviet Union was being faithful to the principles of proletarian internationalism. The Red Army fulfilled its class obligations.
http://marxists.org/reference/archive/thorez/1960/1956.htm#n1 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.110.128.113 ( talk • contribs) .
Um...who ARE you? K. Lastochka 20:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This is exactly what the heading says. I wonder how it belongs to this talk page, though! :o) K issL 20:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't like it when I see the world "fascistic" used everywhere, in most of the cases those who write it don't even know what it means. The 1956 events are accepted to be a revolution even by the now socialist government of Hungary. -- V. Szabolcs 22:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The best possible testimony to this Featured Article's impact is given both directly above, and by the many (even by Wiki standards) hits from trolls and vandals both during and after its time upon the world stage.
It is interesting that the trolling seemed very vörös and not nationalistic (neither T, J, nor P who usually haunt Hungarian topics - showed up) - its seems we DID find the last of the English-speaking Stalin apologists and pulled them out of the shadows kicking and screaming.
Of further interest are the type of objections raised - e.g. "this was not a revolution", "this was not part of the cold war", "they were not communist/dicatatorship/totalitarian/neo-Stalinist/authoritarian" - which might be called by some "inane" (by those in command of proper English, that is) and anti- WP:SNOW by others.
Finally, and most deliciously, (I swear I couldnt have written a better segue) in two thoughtfully-composed passages above are found the two endstations of the red apologists' argument: The anonymous one could have been copied verbatim from the UN report, i.e. the revolution was coopted by fascists, clerics, restorationists, western spies and capitalists and the USSR responded (alone) to the plea of the new worker peasent government (that was founded minutes after Soviet Tanks opened fire on Budapest) and it was, in the considered judgement of the UN "contradictory" and as far as they could judge, mostly "without basis".
At the other end is pure muddle and fog: the semantic argument whose only conclusion is that communism never existed. Ive heard this one at least a million times in parlor conversation, always arising when a soviet-apologist both 1)is loosing an argument, and 2)hears a Westerner utter the word "socialism" or "communism" (in *any* context) there follows, automatically, a dogmatic monologue on how the USSR and every Warsaw pact country was socialist and not communist because communism was an ideal that never existed, but rather was to be attained in the perfect world blah blah blah blah puke. Sorry tovaris, but this is the English Wikipedia and we speak English. We get our definitions from the OED, Webster's and history as it *happened*, not as mis-predicted in the Diamat. Helmut Schmidt was a socialist. Erich Honnecker was a communist. Please stop the buffoonery and learn the language, and instead of expecting westerners to appreciate the finer semantical points of marxism (or any other dead language), first envy their inexperience. Istvan 21:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Excellent post as usual Istvan! :) K. Lastochka 22:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Most of the above consists of amateurish liberal ranting disseminated by imperialist institutes and the corporate press. In order to compensate for their lack of arguments, the liberal liars above use such absurd ad hominem attacks plucked from the asshole such as "red apologist", "Neo-Stalinist", and whatever nonesense they were able to think of at the moment. To have a different view on history does not render one "apologist" or "revisionist." Using this same sort of logic, I could just as easily call you "white guard", "McCarthyist" "fascist", "contra" "Hitlerist", etc for your opposition to communists. These sorts of superifical labels do not amount to any constructive discussion.
It is incorrect to call the bloodshed perpetrated by the Horthyist fascists in Hungary a revolution because of the support it received from financial imperialists manifested by the propaganda organ Radio Free Europe. In addition, it was staunchly Russophobic with chants like "Russians go home" even though Russians were just 1 out of 100+ national groups of the USSR. Additionally, the statue of Stalin who liberated the country from fascist domination was torn down. Policies in Hungary influenced by Stalin had proven to be of enormous benefits to the Hungarian people: the feudal system was eliminated, women were liberated, there was massive enrollment in quality public schools, and drastic advances in medical care. The workers were given the means of production, social welfare was implemented, industrialization was pursued, and education was drastically expanded. Phenomenal success was made in each of these areas. In fact, the evidence shows that Hungary experienced economic decline due to the revisionist policies of Kadar.
Yet Washington's role in the Hungarian revolution soon became mired in controversy. One of the most successful weapons in the East-West battle for the hearts and minds of Eastern Europe was the CIA-administered Radio Free Europe. But in the wake of the uprising, RFE's broadcasts into Hungary sometimes took on a much more aggressive tone, encouraging the rebels to believe that Western support was imminent, and even giving tactical advice on how to fight the Soviets. The hopes that were raised, then dashed, by these broadcasts cast an even darker shadow over the Hungarian tragedy that leaves many Hungarians embittered to this day.
The above was a blatant violation of international law in that it sought to overthrow a legally elected government. The CIA actively sought to overthrow a government in order for a quisling like Nagy to rise to power.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB76/
The workers in Hungary already controlled their means of production. The oppressive Catholic church had been effectively undermined; but the Horthyists sought to change this shown by the sympahty they employed towards the fascist Mindzenty. Society as a whole was given freedom but the demagogue Nagy would effectively have returned Hungary to the feudal conditions of the interwar period. Socialism would be rolled back and Hungary's population would have endured massive poverty starting not in 1989 but in 1956. The Horthyist fascists were easily defeated because they did not have the popular support of the proletariat. The counter-revolution was led by spoiled university students.
As for the accusation that the 1956 Uprising was an anti-semitic one: While maybe not 100% without basis (as anti-semitism has long been present in Hungary and still is, and many Jews were communist)
This anti-Semitism is quite disgusting particularly the mythology of "Red Bolsheviks". With the same logic, we can try and excuse the Holocaust on the basis that "many Jews were communist".
The evidence shows that the Horthyists unleashed violence because they were prmised assistance from the West. When the Soviet peacekeepers proceeded to Budapest, hooligans responded by hurling Molotov cocktails. Nearly 700 many young Russian boys conscripted into the army were killed in the savage violence.
"they were not communist/dicatatorship/totalitarian/neo-Stalinist/authoritarian"
Communist: There was not a party in Hungary called communist. Nowhere in Hungary's constitution was it stipulated that Hungary was in the communist stage. Although right wingers like to dismiss this simple fact, POV misinformation is not permitted here.
Dictatorship: Neither was it a dictatorship. A wide array of political parties from a proletarian background were directly elected to regional communes. In a country where feudalism had been abolished, dictatorship no longer existed.
Totalitarian: Neither was it totalitarian. There was always factional strife between the nationalists led by Janos Kadar and the orthodox Marxists led by Rakosi and Gero. Additionally, there were numerous political parties present in Hungary's legislature -- far more than what has been found in America.
Neo-Stalinist: Neither was there Stalinism because there is no such ideology as Stalinism. Stalin by 1956 had already been dead. Stalinism is a pejorative POV term propgated by Trotskyist losers who never got anywhere in the socialist movement. If anything is to be attributed to "Stalinism", it is modernization, social welfare, progress, and autonomy for minorities.
(that was founded minutes after Soviet Tanks opened fire on Budapest)
That is an absolute lie as party leader Janos Kadar as well as deputy prime minister András Hegedüs had requested for the Soviet peacekeepers to restore order. Hegedüs's ouster on 24 October 1956 was essentially a coup pulled off by right wingers under the influence of Nagyist demagoguery. Neither was there an invasion because thousands of Soviet peacekeepers had been deployed in Hungary long before October 1956. The coward Nagy then defected to Yugoslavia, leaving the country without a proper leader. Janos Kadar then assumed the position discarded by Nagy and proceeded to restore order. With the help of Soviet peacekeepers, the Horthyist fascists were crushed.
Janos Kadar, Radio Kossuth (24th October, 1956)
Workers, comrades! The demonstration of university youth, which began with the formulation of, on the whole, acceptable demands, has swiftly degenerated into a demonstration against our democratic order; and under the cover of this demonstration an armed attack has broken out. It is only with burning anger that we can speak of this attack by counter-revolutionary reactionary elements against the capital of our country, against our people's democratic order and the power of the working class. Towards the rebels who have risen with arms in their hands against the legal order of our People's Republic, the Central Committee of our Party and our Government have adopted the only correct attitude: only surrender or complete defeat can await those who stubbornly continue their murderous, and at the same time completely hopeless, fight against the order of our working people.
At the same time we are aware that the provocateurs, going into the fight surreptitiously, have been using as cover many people who went astray in the hours of chaos, and especially many young people whom we cannot regard as the conscious enemies of our regime. Accordingly, now that we have reached the stage of liquidating the hostile attack, and with a view to avoiding further bloodshed, we have offered and are offering to those misguided individuals who are willing to surrender on demand, the opportunity of saving their lives and their future, and of returning to the camp of honest people.
Wow. How long did you spend writing that? You know, if you really know as much about Hungary as you say you do, do you think you could bother to spell those names right? The names are spelled Kádár, Gerő, Hegedűs, Mindszenty, and Rákosi. And next time you call the 56ers "fascists", would you please be so kind as to supply some valid, verifiable evidence backing up that assertion? Also, I really doubt Horthy had any hand in the revolution, since he had been in exile in Portugal ever since his Nuremburg trial in '49. Also I just noticed this that you wrote: Stalinism is a pejorative POV term propgated by Trotskyist losers who never got anywhere in the socialist movement. LOL! It could also be said that "Trotskyist losers" is a pejorative POV term propagated by Stalinist creeps, but let's not go there. :) K. Lastochka 18:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you JP for tirelessly confirming the point of this section. I will dig out an élmunkás medal for you too. Istvan 18:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
LOL, Istvan, you just sent me scrambling to my magyar-angol dictionary again. :) Now that all has been made clear I agree completely. :) Memo to all Reds, Communists, Socialists, Trotskyist losers and Marxists: no matter how strongly you believe in your ideas, you won't find a receptive audience for them here, so do us all a favor and don't bother posting. K. Lastochka 21:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Settle down, all I said was that communists are unlikely to find a receptive audience on this particular thread, which is true, and not just because of MY opinions. In my previous post, I corrected some spelling errors, requested that if he must call the 56ers "fascists" that he provide some explanation as for why he uses that term, stated my doubt that Horthy was involved in 56, and was amused by his comment about Stalinists and Trotskyist losers. I sincerely hope I am not in fact such a bad Wikipedian as you think I am. K. Lastochka 00:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
No, you're not a crappy wikipedian. In fact, from what I've seen, you're a very dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent wikipedian. You obviously feel strongly about this subject, and we're all biased when it comes to things we feel strongly about. While I think the editing of this article has reflected a bias, you (and others) have managed to keep it in check, which has made for a great article. Your comments above, seemed a little less restrained, that's all. I guess that's what the discussion page is for. Living for a couple years in the Czech Republic and Hungary has given me a greater appreciation for the devastation caused by communism, but it's also exposed me to the anti-communist attitudes there (particularly among the youngest generation which experienced little more of communism than I did in Canada) which sometimes felt like being thrown back in time to the red scare of the 1950s. It took the German public over 20 years to begin to deal with the Nazi period in a rational way, accept some responsibility etc... and even that is far from a dead issue. Maybe Eastern Europeans need more time to deal with their past.
I also have real animosity to nationalism, and Hungarian nationalism sometimes seems particularly strong to me. I mean, Hungarians sing their national anthem on New Years. That's almost as bizarre as wearing a maple leaf on your backpack all over the world. I've never looked at the Trianon discussion page looks like, but can only cringe imagining it. Contributors to this page, on the other hand, have displayed an incredible ability to discuss things amicably, and I don't see why a communist (or certainly, a socialist) shouldn't be able to enter the discussion constructively. A Stalinist... well, that might a bit much. =) -- TheMightyQuill 04:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
According to Evenimentul Zilei, a Romanian newspaper, thousands of Romanians in Bucharest, Timişoara, Cluj protested in 1956 in support of the Hungarian Revolution and against the Soviets. The result was that 1000 students were expelled, thousands were arrested, sentences given totaled 1400 years and 30 people got the death penalty, of which 24 were executed.
Maybe we should integrate this in the article. bogdan 21:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it's worth a brief mention in the article, just not in great detail (create a new article for that.) K. Lastochka 03:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it belongs - events in Romania and Hungary are often linked to some degree. Something on post-56 Poland would fit too. Id be happy to pick something up in your article, unfortunately I do not read Romanian. Istvan 04:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Wow, I already forgot about the template. It's a great place for articles about reaction in Romania Poland etc. Unfortunately I can also be of no help reading Romanian--I know about three words. Polish I might be able to figure out some, but don't count on it. :) Are there also connections w/ Prague Spring that would be worth writing about? K. Lastochka 05:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Good, let's try to work on that template. For some reason I can't access the Evenimentul article, but allow me to translate a portion of this Ziua article:
Communist Romania had a role to play in these events. Gheorghiu Dej's team immediately condemned the Hungarian Revolution and sent Valter Roman and Aurel Malnasan ( see this for some Hungarian material on the subject) on a special mission. He contributed to the capture of Imre Nagy, who would be held at Snagov. The historian Florin Constantinescu summarizes the responsibility of the Romanian leader in these terms: "Gheorghiu-Dej fully deserved, through the ruthlessness he showed toward the Hungarian Revolution, the "certificate" decreed by Khrushchev, when he characterised his Romanian counterpart as "a true Bolshevik".
Events in the neighbouring country had an echo here as well. Catholic priests and Magyar intellectuals showed, one way or another, their solidarity with the insurgents. It is known that over a thousand Magyar inhabitants of Cluj were prevented, at the last moment, from organising a planned meeting in a cemetery. The most active were the students and pupils from the upper grades [ie, late high school]. In Timişoara, Cluj, Oradea, Bucharest and Târgu-Mureş students distributed manifestos and proclamations calling for the example of the Hungarian youth to be followed. After the leaflets were distributed, 39 students were arrested in Bucharest. In Timişoara, about 500 students protested in support of the insurgents. The Army and the Securitate occupied the university campus, arresting some 3000 youths, of whom 31 were condemned [to death]. The Securitate went on to begin a vast surveillance operation against the Magyar population of Romania, which later became state policy. Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej and his colleagues in the PCR leadership saw in the events of 1956 an argument for intensifying repression. A relaxation of repression occurred only at the beginning of the 1960s. De-Stalinisation in Romania, which followed de-Stalinisation in the other states under the USSR's aegis, happened, over time, because of the Revolution in Hungary. The 1956 Revolution had a determining role in the change in nature of European Communism, in that it came to renounce its most abject practices. Biruitorul 05:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know which ministry was officially in charge of AVH/AVO forces? Gk1956 11:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The ÁVH was created in 1944 by the Soviets and placed under the Interior Ministry in 1945/46. In 1949, the border guards and security police were placed under the ÁVH and reported directly to the government (leaving only the regular police under the interior ministry).(ref UN doc paras 426, 427) I dont see anything indicating their being under defense - in fact they were criticised for not being under any supervision at all. Istvan 17:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The urge to do something has struck me, so I've ripped the Warsaw Pact template and rather crudely made it into the skeleton you see here. The question is: is such a thing desireable? Will those or similar red links be filled anytime soon? Discuss. Biruitorul 06:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
File:1956 Oct 23 Budapest Bem demonstration.jpg |
Hungarian Revolution of 1956 |
I applaud the inclusion of a refined template box - I would include some items which were edited out of the article, like "historical debate" text, one for "notable quotes", "famous people" (sounds like jeapordy categories), 56 effects in other countries, perhaps a list of 56'ers (where anyone could add their name) and where they are now (not a bad use of cheap disk space) and perhaps a "POV Corner" (named "soapbox"?) where people could write more opinionated text - including the Kádár-apologist argument (these are also part of the story) I think we should put in some type of prominent link to the AHF since they provided the images and permission which really made this article shine. These are my ideas - any more? Istvan 15:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I was getting the urge to do something, too. I don't think we need those first three categories, that look like they just redirect to different spots in the main article--a bit redundant. Otherwise very good ideas, I love the idea of putting up a list of 56'ers where people can list themselves if they were there--can you imagine if some of them have been following our progress here? :) The template is such a good idea, I remember having to delete a lot of quote lists, random facts, debates, and now we have a place to put them back! Maybe we can have a section of little stories from the resistance, I've heard stuff about, like, the revolutionaries threw pots and pans all over one street and from a distance they looked like land mines and scared the heck out of the Soviet troops. :) K. Lastochka 16:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
(PS this is random but has anybody seen Szabadság, szerelem yet? Is it good? I want to see it but it hasn't hit theaters Stateside yet... K. Lastochka 16:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC))
OK, I've modified it accordingly. My idea is that before we go and create random additional articles about the Revolution, let's instead try and reach some consensus over here about what would be desireable, giving this project some structure. Of the five ideas I've put in, one already exists. Do the other four seem good to you? If you'd like to see others, by all means add them into the template. Biruitorul 00:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I've removed a See also section (not recommended in featured articles) with one link pointing to Special moments of Hungary's 1956 uprising. I also AfD'd the latter. I believe that its content contains some encyclopedic info (which belongs here) and some not quite so encyclopedic stuff (which should be deleted). K issL 13:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
To start, ths title of this article is extremely POV in favour of the revisionist Nagyites. Encarta Encyclopedia calls this event Hungarian Revolt of 1956. For "1956 Hungarian Uprising", Proquest database puts forth 917 results. "1956 Hungarian Revolution" on the same database puts forth only 690 results by comparison.
Out of a population of ten million, no more than 15 thousand insulated reformists and fascists were part of this counterrevolution. It failed precisely due to its lack of popular support.
Compare this to the 10 million Frenchmen who in May 1968 went out on strike and organized councils for the administration of plants, debated political, social, and cultural questions endlessly, worked at establishing contacts with the farmers, and groped toward contact with the students. In a word, they set in motion what appeared to be a genuine workers' revolution.
On October 25, a mass of protesters gathered in front of the Parliament Building. ÁVH units began shooting into the crowd from the rooftops of neighboring buildings
According to Charles Gati: "Suddenly, indiscriminate shooting began. It is still uncertain who started it…
Real power was in the hands of Mátyás Rákosi, a Communist trained in Moscow.
This right here is fucking bogus. It is a ridiculous attempt to depict him as a puppet. Rakosi had been a people's commissar during the Hungarian Soviet Republic which was smashed in August 1919. He was then imprisoned from 1925 until 1940. Following his release in 1940, Rakosi sought refuge in USSR.
Simply because the French workers and students were not armed and did not resort to violence even after systematic police brutality.
Revolution was neither limited to students nor in Paris. It in fact kicked in when the students received the support of the workers went to strike numbering at 10 million or two thirds of the entire French labour force. Whereas the majority of French society supported the revolution, a small psychotic fringe in Hungary beared a similar characteristic.
In concern to Rakosi, his presence in the USSR is irrelevant. His Marxist political career started before the formation of the USSR. Josip Tito fought in the Soviet Russian Red Army during Russia's civil war. He even became a member of the Soviet Communist Party in the 1930s. This, however, is completely irrelevant seeing how Tito was to become major anti-Soviet politician. Jacob Peters
Agree Szabolcs. Mr. Peters, as long as you keep using your own POV statements to counter our own perceived ones, you're just wasting your breath. If you have something serious to say, by all means say it, calmly, rationally and well-sourced. As for our use of the word "revolution", if you look around a bit you'll find that we debated extensively what to call it. We finally settled on "revolution"--and one of the main reasons was, in Hungarian it is called a revolution ("forradalom"), also it is just common parlance in English. Honestly, if the title of the piece is the biggest thing you can find to complain about, than I think we're doing fine. Also please stop referring to all the 56ers as "fascists". It's very rude and insulting to their memory. K. Lastochka 14:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, Mr. Peters, I just noticed another of your precious little phrases: the events in Hungary were supported by a "small psychotic fringe"?? Please, if you're telling US to get rid of "POV", get rid of your own first!! No one takes the pot seriously when he's calling the kettle black! K. Lastochka 14:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
You have still yet to address the POV nature of the title when the plurality of results on Proquest database is 1956 Hungarian Uprising. You still have yet to address this lie:
On October 25, a mass of protesters gathered in front of the Parliament Building. ÁVH units began shooting into the crowd from the rooftops of neighboring buildings
According to Charles Gati in "Failed Illusions": "Suddenly, indiscriminate shooting began. It is still uncertain who started it…
This uprising was fascist for the following reasons:
-Nagy’s rapid move to the right, towards accommodation with capitalist parties and NATO imperialists;
-the lynchings of communists;
-anti-semitic attacks against Jews.
And then there is also the worship by the rebels of that fascist scum Mindzenty. While you all claim that this was a revolution against authority, it was in fact accomodating the most oppressive authority that has ever existed.
There were no appeals to proletarian internationalism – nationalism, not internationalism, was the ideology that united all the rebels.
By contrast, the Cultural Revolution in China a decade later was mainly a revolt from the Left against revisionist leadership. So the Cultural Revolution is slandered, while the Hungarian revolt is lauded.
Right-wing capitalists, aristocrats, and Fascists had ruled Hungary for decades. These forces still had a following.
And please, don't use the words "fascist", "Nazi", "revisionist", etc. if you don't know what they mean!
Nagy was a revisionist who accomodated the NATO imperialists. The rebels who chanted Russophobic slogans and carried out anti-Semitic violence were fascists.
According to Gati: "The Soviet leadership in Moscow was not trigger-happy."
The key Soviet leadership documents, now published, show that Khrushchev would have settled for a multi-party system and a neutral Hungary. But they would not permit a right-wing regime such as had invaded the USSR in 1941 to return to power allied with NATO.
Gati: "More than anything else, hypocrisy characterized the U.S. approach to Hungary."
Rather than "liberating" Hungarians from socialism, the Republicans under Eisenhower and Nixon were "interested in liberating Congress from the Democrats." (p.218) They were actually "relieved when the Russians came back and squelched the Hungarian Rising." (p.181)
The last thing the US wanted was a belt of neutral countries in Eastern Europe, though both the Eastern Europeans themselves and the Soviet leadership did want it. Radio Free Europe was "sympathetic to the pre-1945 Horthy regime" – the fascists who had invaded the USSR.
''The Hungarian Revolution[3] of 1956 was a spontaneous nationwide revolt
This is false as it this was touched off both by the nationalist uprising in Poland and Khruschev's slanderous speech about Stalin. It received the active support from Radio Free Europe as Gati has documented. This was not spontaneous.
against the Communist government of Hungary
This phrase demonstrates the lack of education on the part of the contributors of this article. There is no such thing as a communist government. There is no government in communism. Moreover, there was in Hungary throughout duration of the People's Republic a multi-party coalition. When the USSR liberated Hungary in 1944, a genuine multi-party provisional government was formed that included 127 Communists, 123 Smallholders, 94 Social Democrats, 63 trade unionists, 39 National Peasants, 22 Democrats, 30 independents. The Government Bloc which won 60% in the elections of 1947 was composed of communists, social democrats, smallholders, and national peasants.
and its Soviet-imposed policies, lasting from October 23 until November 10, 1956.
This here is further bullshit. Soviet policies comprised collective farming. There was not collective farming ever in the People's Republic of Hungary.
Dear JP, Once again you fill the section with material exactly befitting its heading. Truth in advertising!
Its good to see you have read a book on the subject. If you read another one, and perhaps a third, you will quickly realise how messy a business is revolution (and history writing!). I applaud you for three things: firstly, keeping this page from getting too boring (I miss the excitement); secondly, confirming the article's NPOV by mustering only fringe, pedantic and regurgitated objections; and finally for turning the shrill ad-hominem down a notch and putting your objections into more succinct, organised form.
You are right that Moscow was not as "trigger-happy" as they might have been (e.g. Berlin June 17, 1952 comes to mind) and that the US behaved shamefully - whether the operative word is "hypocracy", "confusion", "ineptitude" or "negligence" is a matter of debate. Please note that the article does not laud the West; it accurately describes 56 as unfolding without much involvement from them.
But your playing the religion card (antisemitism, Mindszenty) is a complete non-sequiter. This article neither condemns nor credits any religious or ethnic group (even ethnic Russians) - you are in essence railing against anecdotes and others' writings, not ours. This article, and its cited references, tell the story quite well without all this. China's Cultural Revolution is also, just like the CDU in the DDR, irrelevant to 56.
And the other points are just plain wrong: Not being communist and lacking "proletarian internationalism" is not evidence of fascism (unless everyone to the right of Tito was a fascist). The regrettable episodes of "street justice" were perpetrated mostly against the ÁVH for being repressive monsters, not communist. And in the turmoil, everyone - even the ÁVH - settled scores. In fact, worker's councils often took people into protective custody to thwart the mob. And yes, the lynchings were wrong - there were many young kids in the ÁVH who may have been repulsive punks, but they did not deserve to die. Their deaths do not prove motive beyond the actions themselves which can only be interpreted at face value. And there is no evidence of NATO or the West exerting influence upon Nagy or the National Government - there is plenty of evidence of the newly formed "worker's councils" successfully exerting influence upon them.
And how on Earth do you figure the West didnt want to see Hungary Neutral, but the USSR did?!? Not even the Kádár apologists would dare put that one forward. In 1955, Austria's neutrality drove a big neutral wedge from Geneva to the Hungarian border giving NATO a logistical headache (look at the map and see how easy it was to move troops and tanks between Trieste and Nürnberg). A neutral Hungary would have extended that wedge into the East, creating a similar headache for the Warsaw pact - Good for NATO, bad for Moscow.
JP, you share most Westerners' compulsion to interpret events through the restrictive prism of East-West rivalry; any move which displeases Moscow is freely branded with any of the tired perjoratives - "imperialist" "nazi" "captialist" etc. - these are used indiscriminately. As far as using these perjoratives, I agree with Szabolcs - please understand them first. However, making up new ones, e.g. "Nagyite", is of course fair game as neologisms are always fun and interesting (you cant misuse something you just invented). BTW I'm happy to be called a "Nagyite". Istvan 21:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
JP, for whatever you post next, please try and get a handle on the various shadings and levels of intensity of certain words. I'm not asking you to be the next Petőfi Sándor, but please try not to throw inflammatory words around like confetti. It makes people take your arguments even less seriously. For example, a sampling of words you use interchangeably: capitalist, imperialist, fascist. "Capitalist" is just a descriptive term, a name of a particular economic system. Depending on who's talking it can be a pejorative (just like "Communist") but the word itself is not especially loaded. "Imperialist" is a lot stronger, and it's also not necessarily related to capitalism. A communist state (the USSR for example) can be just as imperialist as a capitalist one (the USA.) As for "fascist", hold your damn horses!! That's one of the strongest words you can use in political discourse and should not be used lightly. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, now THEY were fascists. They each murdered several million people, mainly because they dared to hold different political convictions than their rulers. They held complete dictatorial control over their countries, were extremely racist, forbade any sort of civil society, and generally were living nightmares. To directly compare Nagy Imre to those monsters is appalling. Sure, he may not have been Vaclav Havel or the Dalai Lama, but a FASCIST?? Good God, man! Get a grip on your vocabulary before someone gets hurt! K. Lastochka 22:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
There is also a serious question of whether the 1948-1955 government in Hungary was even repressive. What you people call "political persecution" in fact was directed towards phony opportunistic careerists within the Socialist Workers Party who were legally expelled rather than the workers and peasants who were the overwhelming majority of the country. According to Balasz Szallontai, from 1945 to 24 February 1951, 227 executions took place. Of the 227 persons in question, 146 had been sentenced for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Therefore, this left only 81 executions for truly political reasons between 1945-1951. In 1953, the number of prisoners convicted of political crimes stood at only 7,093. In contrast, right wing Greek thugs supported by the repressive right wing regime slaugtered 1500 civilians in 1946. Source: http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/1555.html
Even the now socialist government never called it a counter-revolution.
A regime that lets malicious corporations steal the people's resources cannot possibly be considered socialist. It is an enormous insult to genuine socialists to call the phony capitalist neoliberals in eastern Europe socialists. Thanks to this rapacious privitization of the people's resources, Hungary is now in a state of massive impoverishment.
the shrill ad-hominem down a notch and putting your objections into more succinct, organised form.
What are you talking about? I did not make an ad hominem attack towards any contributor here. Interpreting a political movement as fascist when support for Catholic Church, Russophobic hatred, and display of demagogic nationalist Hitlerist slogans speak for themselves is a genuine political interpretation. It is a fact that the repressive Catholic Church represented by that scoundrel Mindzenty was worshipped by the rebels. It is a fact that this movement lacked any aim for international proletarian solidarity which is the essence of revolution. This was a counter revolution as Hungary had already been liberated from fascism and feudalism.
China's Cultural Revolution is also, just like the CDU in the DDR, irrelevant to 56.
That would be like saying the nationalist uprising in 1956 Poland was irrelevant to 1956 Hungary. This is not true because the Polish nationalist rebellion touched off Hungary's fascist resurgence.
Not being communist and lacking "proletarian internationalism" is not evidence of fascism
This movement did not seek to bring about any meaningful social change. As shown by Hungary's constitution, workers had control of the factories and other means of production. For this reason alone this is disqualified as revolution. The fact that the rebels lacked the popular support of the Hungarian people means that this was a botched coup attempt rather than a popular uprising.
And how on Earth do you figure the West didnt want to see Hungary Neutral but the USSR did?!?
This is not my view. This was written by Charles Gati in "Failed Illusions". The key difference is that the West wanted to force Hungary in the reformed Axis which they call NATO while the USSR negotiated a neutral, nonaligned Hungary. USSR proposed the exact same for Germany in March 1952 but was soundly rejected by power hungry Adenauer and the NATO imperialists.
any move which displeases Moscow is freely branded with any of the tired perjoratives - "imperialist" "nazi" "captialist" etc. - these are used indiscriminately.
This is shallow and inappropriate characterization on your part. China's Cultural Revolution displeased Moscow but I have not branded this movement as imperialist, nazi, or capitalist.
"Capitalist" is just a descriptive term, a name of a particular economic system.
Nagy undoubtedly wanted to overthrow the socialist system in order to restore capitalism. He made contacts with the NATO imperialists for this reason.
"Imperialist" is a lot stronger, and it's also not necessarily related to capitalism.
I never used this term to describe Nagy. You are making shit up.
A communist state (the USSR for example) can be just as imperialist as a capitalist one (the USA.)
USSR did not exploit the resources of its allies in the third world including India, Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Vietnam, DPRK, and others in contrast to America whose corporations had de facto ownership of Latin America. In the 1960s and 1970s, the revisionist closet capitalists in Poland and Hungary traded with the West which brought their economies in crippling debt. Hungary by 1987 was in $16bn debt.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, now THEY were fascists.
Lumping Stalin and Mao is incendiary, fringe POV nonesense. Anti-racist and anti-capitalist Marxists like Stalin and Mao can't possibly be corporatist fascists.
They each murdered several million people, mainly because they dared to hold different political convictions than their rulers.
There is not any basis for such. Evidence from the archives shows that the excesses of the upheavels of the 1930s were primarily the work of local NKVD units and party officials trying to climb the political ladder by getting rid of their opponents. Yezhov also played a major role in this which is why he was punished. The likes of Zhdanov and Vyshinsky had frequently expressed concern towards the chaos of 1937-38. In all, 300 to 500 thousand mostly belonging to the party and burreaucracy were executed between 1937-38 in contrast to your fairy tale anecdotes about millions.
They held complete dictatorial control over their countries
That is a total lie. The events of 1930s USSR show that the country was far from monolithic politically. There existed numerous different perspectives within the Party leadership. The collectivization of the early 1930s is a clear example of tension between central and local government units. In China, this was also far from the case. The Cultural Revolution demonstrated sharp political sectarianism. Neither Stalin nor Mao had dictatorial control over their countries.
were extremely racist, forbade any sort of civil society, and generally were living nightmares.
The claim that either Stalin or Mao were racist is laughable nonesense considering equal rights for all national groups within USSR and China as well as firm proletarian internationalist outlook. According to opinion polls, most Russians particularly the elderly who lived during Stalin believe he was beneficial to the country and would rather have him back rather than live in today's capitalist nightmare. Stalin and Mao are marked as having been successful leaders who brought enormous benefits to their people while Nagy, Quisling, Dubcek, and others will go down as disgraced losers.
To directly compare Nagy Imre to those monsters is appalling.
Where did I compare Nagy to Stalin or Mao?
Sure, he may not have been Vaclav Havel or the Dalai Lama
Vaclav Havel has impoverished his country and brought it under the control of corporations while the Dalai Lama advocates slavery. — [ Unsigned comment added by 204.102.210.1 ( talk • contribs).]
Moving on then:
Lumping Stalin and Mao is incendiary, fringe POV nonesense. Anti-racist and anti-capitalist Marxists like Stalin and Mao can't possibly be corporatist fascists.
If I'm on the fringe, then it's a pretty big fringe! :) Stalin and Mao cannot be considered Marxists, because they twisted the philosophy of Marx beyond all recognition to serve their own political goals. Stalin was anti-racist? Tell that to the Jews, the Chechens, the Georgians, the Armenians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians, the Estonians, and especially the Ukrainians....
USSR did not exploit the resources of its allies in the third world including India, Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Vietnam, DPRK, and others in contrast to America whose corporations had de facto ownership of Latin America.
American imperialists propped up puppet governments, Soviet imperialists propped up puppet governments, Americans exploited natural resources, Soviets stifled free speech and the aspirations of captive people to decide for themselves what sort of government they wanted. Both pretty nasty, IMO.
This movement did not seek to bring about any meaningful social change. As shown by Hungary's constitution, workers had control of the factories and other means of production. For this reason alone this is disqualified as revolution.
The 56ers wanted to get rid of an oppressive, authoritarian government (yes, it WAS a nasty regime, even though by your calculations "only" 81 political prisoners were shot.) and make Hungary a free democratic society finally independent of any foreign-backed puppet regime. First the Ottomans, then the Hapsburgs, then the Soviets....they wanted to put an end to all that. That's some meaningful change they wanted. "As shown by Hungary's constitution..."....that doesn't mean much, the Soviet constitution looks pretty utopian on paper, never mind that it was only followed as far as was convenient for the Party bigwigs. Governments all over the world have repeatedly shown that it's pretty easy to ignore a constitution. "For this reason alone this is disqualified as revolution." Huh? I don't get that one.
This game is fun, in a really sick, twisted way. Care to keep playing? K. Lastochka 20:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Using the Party's own official declarations for a proof against the executions and deportations is like using Hitler's own books for Holocaust denial. In both cases there is written something like "everything is fine, nothing bad happens, everything bad is just the propaganda of our enemy, the <<insert random pejoratives here>>"
It seems my little "prophecy" about another automatic reply fulfilled itself :( We could keep playing a lot in this way - replying to (an focusing on) the small citation from someone and discarding his other comments. Should I try to clarify again for you to try to understand what we want to say before blindly copy-pasting hundreds of lines of propaganda? We are here to discuss things, not to play chatbots with automated posts from a fixed database. Sorry for the (maybe) harsh examples, I will try to remain more neutral. -- V. Szabolcs 22:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I have created a category for this important event. I am sure there are many more articles that should be added, so please feel free to do so. Thanks, Wachholder0 18:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
These Soviet actions alienated many Western Marxists, yet strengthened Soviet control over Central Europe, cultivating the perception that communism was both irreversible and monolithic.
This is baseless. The event that alienated western Marxists was the suppression of the 1968 counter-revolution in Prague. Evidence shows that the communist parties in Italy, for example, increased its number of votes between 1953-58:
1953: 6,121,551 votes for Italian communists
1958: 6,704,763 for Italian communists
Since the end of WW2, the only time that the PCI lost seats in an election was after the turmoil (well-cited in the footnotes to that section of the article) in the PCI after 1956. The other Socialist parties, who denounced the Soviet invasion, all gained seats at the expense of the PCI. The data you provide is out of context to the results of the election. Ryanjo 03:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Hear hear! When people post under IP accounts, it makes it look like they are trying to hide something, or they know, deep down, that the things they are saying are bogus. If you would like to have any chance of being taken seriously, please SIGN IN AND SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.
(By the way, Italy is usually a strange case. If you're trying to make a sweeping generalization about support for Communist parties in Europe, give us more than one country of examples please!?) K. Lastochka 05:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted an large number of edits by unregistered Users 69.110.136.113 & 68.126.61.121, since there were several problems with these edits:
Edits to FA articles should be done with care and after review by other contributing editors, especially if substantial changes to such previously reviewed text is anticipated. That is the nature of discussions on this section. Ryanjo 02:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Agree again. Sometimes I think IP users should be blocked, period--I'm sure it would seriously cut down on stupid vandalism. :) But I don't want to get into a big debate on wiki policy...so just let the record show that I also support a partial protection on this article. K. Lastochka 05:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The format of these references is not congruent with the style of reference already used in the article. Edits to FA articles should be done with care and after review by other contributing editors, especially if substantial changes to such previously reviewed text is anticipated. That is the nature of discussions on this section. Ryanjo 02:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree 100% with Ryanjo and confirm that the issue of whether or not the event can be called a "Revolution" has been decided in the affirmative at least three separate times during the FA(C) and that any change should be summarily reverted. Numbering the revolutionaries at 15,000 is also counter to the historical record, also as referenced in the UN report which stated that soviet forces found it impossible to differentiate between civilian and military targets in Budapest. The number is accurately indeterminable, as Ryanjo points out and any change from this should also be reverted back to the FAC-version description of "unknown". Moreover, returnees are no where near the one-third claimed by the government unless they are engaging in rhetorical sleight of hand (i.e. counting visits) - I would also add the ref - the UN report chapter II.N page 31 point xii) only a small fraction of the 190,000 which fled as refugees have accepted the Government's invitation to return. Anything else should also be reverted. Finally, this article has seen more than its share of vandalism (especially on 23 October when it was TFA) and about 99% of it was from IP users. If any interested admin were to consider a partial protection (against unregistered users) I would certainly encourage it as this will almost certianly help preserve a good FA and allow the vigilant, perhaps overprotective editors more opportunity to work on other wiki areas.
The change to the number of Revolutionaries (from unknown to 15,000, acc to Gati's book) is not correctly referenced. On page 156 of Gati's book, footnote # 22 refers to a publication in Hungarian and states: "Gyurko... warned that it was impossible to know precisely how many took actively part in the revolt." Therefore, unknown is the correct estimate. If there is a direct information which supports Gati's estimate of 15,000, it is not referenced.
First, you are incorrect in the claim that it is not correctly referenced. It was distinctly referenced that the source was from Charles Gati's latest work. Charles Gati is a more than qualified scholar who is a reliable source on this issue. While there was a critical approach to the number of active combattants, this is done in most cases. Most qualified scholars treat newly founded facts with a degree of criticism. Nevertheless, Gati's estimation that 15,000 directly fought is perfectly reliable. Similarly, it is impossible to know the exact number of people killed in the Russian Civil War, but most scholars have estimated it to be in the range of 7-10 million. The point is that it is impossible to know for certain the exact number of people died. For example, you'd never see something like "2,523,732 died in this and that war."
The issue of calling it a revolution has been discussed exhaustively in the discussions above and during FA proposal and the majority of editors have decided it will be called the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Unless a preponderance of opinion sees the need for change, it should remain as titled.
This does not change the fact that most sources including Gati's latest work refer to the event as a revolt. Gati himself was from a petit-bourgeois family employed as a journalist in 1956. He was one of the 200,000 or so who betrayed the country. A work by an ardent anti-communist like Gati should be the paradigm. Plus, you have yet to respond to the fact that most scholarly sources on Proquest database have more search results of "1956 Hungarian Revolt" than "1956 Hungarian Revolution". There was not a revolution because this movement had the support of the Catholic Church, Radio Free Europe, and was fiercely Russophobic. More importantly, this movement did not bring about any fundamental changes that were not already brought about in 1948-1953.
There is a distinct tone of POV: "fled as emigrants", is not supported by a careful reading of the Time article referenced[10]: "today the government claims that more than one-third of 1956's 200,000 refugees have come back home". There is no evidence that this happened or not.
What the fuck are you talking no evidence? This was reported by the Hungarian government. The reference to the obsolete, outdated UN report is not an appropriate source as it was disseminated in 1957 whereas the "Time" article was from the 1960s.
If anything, calling someone a refugee for simply leaving one's country is POV. The reverse POV is to call them defector. The neutral POV is to call them emigrant. People who flee the economic catastrophe of eastern Europe today are not referred to as "refugee". Yet those who fled an economically prosperous Eastern Europe pre-1989 are referred to as "refugee". These people were not fleeing from any devastating war or humanitarian crisis. Like Gati, they were simply bourgeois parasites.
Point 2: We're calling it "Revolution", we've been over this before, deal with it. Point 3: "Fled as emigrants" sounds silly. "Fled" goes with "Refugee", "emigrant" would work better with something like "left". Point 4: Mr. Gati is not a parasite.
That is all I have to say to you. K. Lastochka 17:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"An economically prosperous Eastern Europe pre-1989"...
"There was not collective farming ever in the People's Republic of Hungary."
More Nonsense and Lies, anyone?
JP, your cause is lost. We Hungarians actually know, you know – it's only a matter of time to find and cite the appropriate sources. It's not like you can beat us into letting you whitewash the oppressors by citing various copies of the same side of the story over and over. So just stop wasting everyone's time. If you come back with this bullshit after the page is unprotected, I for one will revert it on sight anyway. (And that's already spending more time on it than it deserves.) K issL 14:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Due to recent vandalism, maybe it should be semiprotected. Can I protect it? NCurs e work 18:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I just put us up as a request for semi-protection, but apparently only an admin can actually do the protecting. That's why I asked you. :) K. Lastochka 19:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen, the recent edits may be annoying, but they are not numerous enough to warrant protection of the page.-- Paul 19:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, it was just a suggestion... :) K. Lastochka 20:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there any way to block him (her??) if he keeps using different IPs? K. Lastochka 03:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I just noticed Mieciu K's request on the "To Do" list, he asks that we write a paragraph about the unrest in BP last month on the 50th anniversary. Mieciu, thanks for your suggestion but this particular article is not the place to write about last month's events. Instead I would like to suggest to my various colleagues and co-editors that we write a "sister article" about the repercussions of 56 that continue to this day. We can talk in more detail about its influence on the Prague Spring, how and why it's often considered the "first nail in the coffin of Soviet communism", the various ways in which people have (rightly and wrongly) invoked the memory of the events to describe political situations in their own time and place, and of course the mess last month. (And then we can put it in that template we've been messing with!) What do you say, boys and girls? :) K. Lastochka 20:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I was hoping for us to maybe start on something about the influence of 56 from the day it all started up through the rest of the cold war and to today...may be a bit ambitious I know... K. Lastochka 04:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Energy maybe, but time? :) I should spend less time on wiki and more time studying. :) I will take a shot at it in next few days though--I feel like I'm up to a little interpretive history! K. Lastochka 04:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed there are some spoken articles on the Wikipedia. Does anyone have interest in at least looking into recording this one? (I would assume this would be a collaboration) Im sure it would require another round of polishing the text, and we'd have to have a think about how to ensure high recording quality. (any trained voices out there?) Look at Samantha Smith as an example - also FA, also spoken article. István 15:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The videos that Istvan linked to are a great addition to the article! The very young age of most of the demonstrators was something I hadn't realized--pictures worth a thousand words, etc. Also, we have several "red wikilinks" now, most prominently "For Freedom and Truth". What happened? Should we delete or link somewhere else? (This article just keeps getting better every time I take another look.) Ryanjo 01:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, those films are superb. If anyone can figure out a way to link to any specific one (rather than to the whole page), they could be used as references (if a webpage, why not a video?) I was struck too by the mood of the crowd, it really comes across very clearly, even the weather; the videos certainly put the story into rich context. As for the Bibó page, I am working on a translation from source (public domain) material, as the previous one (translated by anon) was rejected for copyright status. There was a brief but spirited bruhaha about it, but finally we had to pull it down, cool our jets and we will put it up again shortly, perhaps within a week. Please bear with me on that one - The Bibó stuff really belongs and is an important part of the story. István 01:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow, those films are great! I only watched a few but they made quite an impression. Kösz, István! :-)
Ryanjo, I totally agree. Today was the first time in a while I looked at the article and I was left dumbfounded, scratching my head in bewilderment and thinking "how on Earth did we manage to write something this good??" The next step (besides For Freedom and Truth) is to finally pull together that template Biruitorul suggested. I already started the Cultural Representations bit, am about to throw together something from Biru's notes on events outside BP, then if I have lots of spare time maybe something about the political repercussions. (Somebody put the 2006 anti-Gyurcsi protests in the template--honestly don't think that quite belongs!) K. Lástocska 02:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Likewise. :) This project was a lot of fun and very meaningful for me, despite the occasional squabbles and near-catastrophes (like when our pics almost got yanked!), and I can hardly think of a better group of people I would have wanted to work with. Now that WikiProject Hungarian Culture is all but created, I am eagerly looking forward to more collaborations like this one in the future. Dear friends and colleagues, a very very happy new year to every one of you! K. Lástocska 02:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Guys/Gal, did you see this? [16]
Wow....what a gold mine!! Do I sense that this article is about to get even longer, better and more thoroughly-referenced? ;-) K. Lástocska 03:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
and for the record, another (Gati used this for his book) here [17] Tells how the CIA has such poor intelligence at the time. Too bad they're still all so deeply redacted... István 04:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
They just added some weekly intelligence briefings to this page. They are a better read and are less redacted, but not quite so in-the-trenches as the dailies. István 05:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
not as momentous as the discovery of the video archive and the CIA documents, but have you guys seen this? We're famous! :) [18] K. Lásztocska 23:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[19] [20] [21] -- Paul 05:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Any of you good on the wikisource? Ive translated the Bibó document here but cant quite figure out how to do all the copyright verification stuff on wikisource, nor prepare that header at the top. Its greek to me, and I certainly dont want to set off another mob-bruhaha over copyright status. If any of you are good on wikisource then please be my guest and create the article and repair the red links on this page. Thanks István 06:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted an edit by User:Oleanna1104:
I have a number of objections:
Ryanjo 00:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't help but notice that our revolutionaries-atop-Stalin's-boots picture just got yanked from the commons. Apparently there was a misunderstanding--it is the WEBSITE of the American Hungarian Federation which is copyrighted, not the images they offered in their 1956 gallery. Indeed, this very question came up back in October and after some communication with people from the AHF we were assured that all the photos we uploaded are in fact public domain and we have full permission to use them. K. Lásztocska 00:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have rearranged the Further reading section into two columns (something István had suggested some time ago). Could everyone take a look and comment? Ryanjo 15:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
{{portal|Cold War}}
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I like it--looks pretty classy and doesn't take up as much space on the page. K. Lásztocska 15:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This article really helped me with a project i had to do on the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. With the information from this article and other sources, i will most likely get a 100 on this grade in my World History AP class. User:Chris gonzalez March 2007
Hey, that's great! Glad we could help! :) K. Lásztocska 23:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that someone added a sentence on the 2006 Hungarian film Szabadság, szerelem (Children of Glory), about the 1956 Olympic water polo match between Hungary & Russia, right after the Revolution was crushed. The same paragraph also includes a reference to the film Freedom's Fury, on the same subject. I wonder whether it would be better to start a new section under Published accounts in "External links" for these films (and hopefully others of a wider scope on the 1956 events):
Comments? Ryanjo 04:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
We've already got a weird little split-off article, Cultural representations of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 (for a template that never got finished) I think they're in there. K. Lásztocska 13:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Władysław Gomułka article states: A student demonstration in Budapest in support of Gomułka, asking for similar reforms in Hungary, soon sparked the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Would anybody have a reference for that? In related news, I have created articles on Polish '56 revolution(s): Poznań 1956 protests and Gomułka's thaw.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 04:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
One more Poland - related fact should be mentioned here: that the success of Polish October ows much to the Soviet preoccupation with more far going events in Hungary ( ref, [23]).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
The commons description of this page is "25 october 1956. Massacre at the Parliament: 200 dead, several hundreds injured." In this article, is is used much later, rather than near the events of Oct. 25.
Do we know for sure when this photo was taken? www.hungary1956.com doesn't state it, as far as i could see. We also don't have a source for the number of deaths/injuries at the parliament. - TheMightyQuill 18:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The article says: "Although it was widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet intervention, minutes of the October 31 meeting of the Presidium record that the decision to intervene militarily was taken one day before Hungary declared its neutrality and withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact." The reference is this. It looks like the editor writing this drew his own conclusions, that is it's original research? According to this text, on October 31 "Nagy announces that the Hungarian government is prepared to leave the Warsaw Pact," that is it's the same day as the meeting. On November 1 Nagy "announces Hungary's withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact, proclaims Hungarian neutrality, and asks the United Nations to put the Hungarian question on its agenda." Vints 18:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
the source doesnt say explicitly...that Hungary leaving the Warsaw Pact was not a factor -- That isn't fair, someone could therefore say (for example) that the fact it rained in Moscow that day could have been a factor -- because it wasn't stated that it was not a factor.
The BBC article has the order of events wrong, from the source documents we have available. The BBC writer cites no references for his contention that Nagy announced withdrawal from the Pact before the Presidium made its decision. In fact, as Paul mentions, the UN report (a second source that confirms the Wikipedia article's timeline) states that Soviet units were mobilizing to enter Hungary for several days before the November 1st Nagy cabinet meeting. The BBC's quote from Sir Rodric Braithwaite, that "Had Imre Nagy been loyal to the Warsaw Pact, the Russians might not have intervened" is also unsupported by the source documents (can a politician understand history?).
Swedish Wikipedia may have merely carried over the earlier revision of this article, which incorrectly had the much repeated leave Pact..Soviets invade timeline. This was changed in this article between September & November 2006, when over 50 editors were involved in vetting this article for FA status. However, if Swedish Wikipedia has an undiscovered reference that supports the leave Pact..Soviets invade argument, lets examine it. Ryanjo 19:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The actual attack took place three days later on November 4th. Without knowledge of the October 31 minutes, it is logical to assume that the Nov. 1st cabinet meeting actions caused the Nov. 4th attack. With knowledge of the minutes, it is a lot harder to make that case.-- Paul 18:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)On 1 November, Imre Nagy received reports that Soviet forces had entered Hungary from the east and were moving towards Budapest.[99] Nagy sought and received assurances from Soviet ambassador Yuri Andropov that the Soviet Union would not invade, although Andropov knew otherwise. The Cabinet, with János Kádár in agreement, declared Hungary's neutrality, withdrew from the Warsaw Pact, and requested assistance from the diplomatic corps in Budapest and the UN Secretary-General to defend Hungary's neutrality.[100]
Unless someone finds a primary source that would somehow support the allegation that, at the point of deciding to intervene, the Presidium had heard that Hungary planned to leave the Warsaw Pact and this influenced the decision, the statement is in no way dubious (indeed, it is the opposite that would be both dubious and OR). This has not happened so far – all sources claiming this are based on speculations, not exhaustive analysis of primary sources. I went ahead and removed the tag. K issL 15:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of re-opening the" what caused the intervention?" question again, I reorganized several of the statements in this section, which i believe were not longer in the correct order. If I have got it wrong, please re-edit. Regards,
Ryanjo (
talk) 01:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor claims it wasn't banned and thus the Hungarian olympic delegation didn't have to insist on its use. True or False? Here's a place to start, anyone read Hungarian? [ Hungarian Wikipedia Magyar himnusz].-- Paul 18:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
On the Hungarian page there's nothing about it. But I don't think that there would be any change in the article. It sounds so nice, doesn't it? But it is the least important on this page in terms of factual inaccuracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I wrote it. You just need to see any newsreel from the 1950s about any major sporting event and you can see that the national anthem (Himnusz) is played. In 1952 in the Helsinki Olympic Games 16 times. All the events in Hungary started with this music (including openign of the school year). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.75.230 ( talk) 18:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
As a matter of fact it was compulsory in music classes in the elementary school... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Until the revolution, the Hungarian Anthem was not banned, it was simply not played (for fear or servilism). Neither in shool, nor elsewhere. This sentence All the events in Hungary started with this music (including openign of the school year) is not true. The only way to listen to it was during the Sunday mass in churches. -- Hunadam 16:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I learnt it in the school choir (Budapest X. district) and sang it at the school opening day (beginning of September) in 1952 (having said that the other two songs were the Appeal (Szózat) and the International (there were variations, but these three featured). It is, of course, possible that there were differences between Budapest and the country or even between different Budapest districts. But these are about experiences. However, the point remains that the sportmen and women did not have to protest for having the Anthem played at the Olympic games, one simply has to look at newsreels of sporting events in which Hungary won, you will see that the Anthem is played. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The last paragraph in this section is extremely confused and inaccurate.
The hyper-inflation took place in 1946, well before the communist takeover, thus it is incomprehensible how the Rákosi clique can be made responsible for this. If anything, experts of the communists and the social-democrats worked out the way in which the new currency could be introduced (the propaganda slogan was that Rákosi was the father of the forint and Szakasits its mother), and it certainly created the image of economic expertise. Moreover, the sentence about the hyper-inflation follows the sentence on post-war economic recovery, increasing the confusion.
The paragraph goes on and on about the war reparations, without mentioning that in the war 40% of the national assets were destroyed (of which infrastructure (no bridge survived over the River Tisza and the Danube), vehicles, trains, railways (40% of the total rails), animals (about half of it), industrial raw materials were the most important).
By 1949, industrial production reached the output of 1938 (more or less). The disposable income was necessarily lower than the pre-war level as additional resources were needed for investment, rebuilding and international obligations. The big drop in disposable income in 1951-1952 was a result of the soaring military expenditure as a response to the Korean War.
Here are the figures for economic growth (it uses national income, which is GDP less depreciation and the "non-productive" sectors) - 1950=100
1951: 116
1952: 114
1953: 128
1954: 122
1955: 132
1956: 117
(Source: I. Pető and S. Szakács (1985): A hazai gazdaság négy évtizedének története 1945-1985. 1. Az újjáépítés és a tervutasításos irányítás időszaka, KJK: Budapest, p. 214)
Well, it was the industrial production (especially heavy industries) that led this - the common expression for 1950-1953 in the Hungarian economic history is "the period of forced industrialisation". The current statement in the article is just ridiculous (there was shortage of labour in industry, not unemployment!), not to mention that the reference is a 1953 book...
However, real income of the population did fall between 1951-1953, though nowhere close to the suggestion in the article (the figures below are for employees):
1949=100
1950: 102.8
1951: 97.8
1952: 87.5
1953: 91.0
1954: 115.0
1955: 121.8
1956: 129.3
(Source: ibid, p. 217)
Food consumption was more or less the same between 1950-1954 and 1934-1938 with the exception of sugar that was twice as high in 1950-1954 than in the pre-war period (source: ibid., p. 231. Nevertheless, there were shortages and the rationing was reintroduced in 1951 (abolished, in my view too early, in 1949).
Well, it is rather different picture than the one in the article. But at least it is not confused and fairly accurate (the book referenced here is fairly reliable). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 10:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Ryanjo 15:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I wasn't clear. In the text the war reparations are mentioned as a decisive factor (apart from the economic mismanagement). While they were important (but less so from 1950), the task of rebuilding the infrastructure, re-breeding the animal stock (after all, cattle has a pretty long breeding period), etc. were more important. The article's text actually does not mention the destruction by WWII. For many people in the West, the destruction (and the scale of losses of life) in the East is incomprehesible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 15:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The comparison is with 1938 in the article (which is the first year of the Győr programme anyway). The main reason is the soaring military expenditure and the numerous heavy industry investment started at the same time (without proper plans - Sztálinváros [Dunaújváros] was built like this) that consumed the resources. Mismanagement played a significant role, there cannot be any doubt. However, the figures in the article are just plain wrong. Industrial production was significantly higher in the 1950s than in 1938 or 1949. The drop in output happens in Nagy's 1953 economic reorientation programme that aimed at reducing the expenditure in heavy industries by redirecting resources to light industries and stopping several large projects to ease political tensions. If one excludes the mismanagement cost, Hungarian industry was more productive than in the pre-war period because of the consolidation of the small and medium-sized companies.
Percentages are also interesting things. When it's said that by 1949 industrial production reached the 1938 level, it covers up the fact that light industries were extremely underdeveloped in Hungary. Just for the measure: Production of socks was 3-4 pairs per person in 1938... Thus even a 100% increase in this would have have yielded rather little. In both the 3-year and the first 5-year plan light industries received less resources (or resources were even taken away). This historic disadvantage couldn't be made up without either giving up the heavy industry or agriculture or both. Hence the tendency of the Hungarian economy to be dependent on foreign loans, resources for the last 150 years or so.
The comparison with Germany is not really appropriate as West Germany would take over not only the East in terms of economic growth and living standards, but all the Western Allies as well (with the exception of the US) by the mid-1950s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 17:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
It reads much better and much more accurate (especially with the added reference of the forced savings ("Békekölcsön"), which is really a key issue as it really distorts most of the national statistics). The last sentence of the paragraph is really redundant as it repeats what's said before, with the exception of the reference to the discontent as a result of economic problems (the remark about the price difference for producers and consumers is not explained anywhere anyway, thus perhaps it is incomprehesible for the unitiated reader: it meant that the peasantry received less money for the surrendered grain than for which they bought it back.). Thus, in my view, it is sufficient to say: "all these fuelled discontent as foreign debt grew and the population experienced shortages" (with the reference). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 23:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Good to see the editorial team is still on the job. I agree with K. Lastochka, who relocated the contributions by Redstar1987:
Also, the sentence added about atrocities was similar to some previously in the article. Besides being poorly phrased, it's unreferenced.
It always helps if contributors to a FA article discuss the edits here first... Ryanjo 18:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the incident on Köztársaság Square (Republic Square) October 30 (see eg [28]) should be mentioned. According to Victor Sebestyen's book this was one factor to why the Soviets decided to intervene a second time. Vints ( talk) 07:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC) I updated the to-do list. Vints ( talk) 07:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi all ! Can we add this to the article ? - [29]. The site is very nicely done and it is in 8 languages ! Greetings.
-- Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] ( talk) 04:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
When I click on the link you provided, it requires a login and password. According to Wikipedia guidelines "sites that require registration or a paid subscription should be avoided". Ryanjo ( talk) 15:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Yesterday everything was ok, I don't know what happened... No password were needed, I'm sure about that.
-- Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] ( talk) 21:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It does not ask for any password from me either. -- V. Szabolcs ( talk) 19:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Works for me too (proxy IP in Hungary). Ryanjo, I suspect that your ISP may be using the wrong DNS record. This is what I see; do you see anything similar? K issL 10:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for my assumption that all couldn't link to the page. I still get the "sign on" at http://www.1956.pl/main,8.html. I have sent a query to my ISP (bellsouth.net). Ryanjo ( talk) 01:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This
section of the article is almost competely unreferenced, and frankly, anyone getting to that point in the article after reading all the meat above will think they have stumbled down a rabbit hole and are now attending the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. The arguments presented are strongly POV and revisionist to the point of departing from reality. I think the section should be drastically cut back to mention that there are alternate/revisionist views of these events and to provide a footnote or two pointing the interested reader to appropriate sources for further reading.--
Paul 19:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Wow, you're right, what a wreck. Forgot about that mess....I'll see what I can do in a bit. K. Lastochka 19:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
It's gone. :) If we feel the need, we can maybe write a completely new better version of that section, but the current incarnation had to go. K. Lastochka 21:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
A question: at what point does a 'revolt' become a 'revolution?' I feel that this title is biased. I understand that there have been billboards up in Times Square calling it a revolution, but surely the definition of revolution does not fit what happened in Hungary in 1956. The Wikipedia definition: "A revolution is a drastic change that usually occurs relatively quickly." Altho this should actually be modified by 'social' or 'political', since a heart attack would not be called a revolution, it's not a bad definition. In Hungary there was a drastic change but it almost immediately went back to status ante. And worse. the American or French revolutions would not be called so if they had ended in French or Royalist victory respectively. They would be called 'rebellions' or 'revolts.' I feel that the title of this article should be changed. The encyclopedia cannot have its language be skewed by political partisanship, however much one may actually sympathize with those who suffered under and struggled against Soviet rule. [Kenvyn, Oct. 23/06]
While technically it was a revolt, the events are known to Hungarians as the Hungarian Revolution. The Boston Tea Party wasn't really a tea party, but that doesn't mean we need to change the name of what it is commonly referred to. Attila226 17:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
In a few short months this article has gone from being the most piss poor history of the revolution I had ever seen to being something worth reading!! I have to apologize for not having contributed anything (life has a nasty habbit of getting in the way of academics). I was in Budapest during the most recent political upheaval. It will be interesting to see how things play out 50 years later.10/18/06
I love the way this article looks now, but if we look at an from about a year ago, we find two things. One, the improvement has indeed been dramatic. But two, I like the last section and especially the "historical debate" section. I think the current version doesn't present enough interpretive viewpoints on the matter. Of course we must remain neutral, but might it not be a good idea to restore such a section, with proper citation, and give readers an idea of historians' debates on the subject? Biruitorul 08:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
We debated that "historical debate" paragraph. Finding the citations would have been too much of a pain and the section wasn't really all that informative, at least not enough to be worth the effort of cleaning it up. K. Lastochka 18:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, very soon. Lets make a list of things we need yet (but not in the official to-do box)
Thanks to NCurse, we have requested a judgement, and know exactly what we need to do. The very moment we (God willing) are successful, we may put it up for nomination here. I have put up the AID and FAC noms, would someone else like to do the honours this time? The actual nom follows a certain format - Ive built out one on the sandbox its Test 1. (though anyone could delete it. Please look and edit. Istvan 19:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC) I had to move it to my talk page as it was getting deleted (figures!) Istvan 19:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Please at least look up the word totalitarian before you throw it around. It's a problematic term because it has so many definitions, making it vague and incredibly POV. How can a government that controls every area of life be subject to a widespread revolution? -- TheMightyQuill 07:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Common to all definitions is the attempt to mobilize entire populations in support of the state and a political or religious ideology, and the intolerance of activities which are not directed towards the goals of the state, such as involvement with labour unions, non-sanctioned churches or opposition political parties.
I presume the issue is the replacement of "totalitarian" by "authoritarian" in the lead paragraph (first sentence) and the "Political repression and economic decline" subsection of the "Prelude" section. The Prelude "authoritarian" is already enhanced by the sentences that follow; there is little doubt that the reader will think that the Rákosi government was simply "strict". As a compromise position, and using the same logic (that the reader can understand from the context without being banged over the head with a "strong" word like "totalitarian"), leave it as authoritarian but add the second sentence, putting the word "authoritarian" in the context of policies that would incite a rebellion. Something like a mini-version of the Prelude section, that hits the points of occupation, economic failures of collectivism, show trials, etc. Again, not too blustery, just the facts. Ryanjo 16:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
How about "repressive" ? The descriptor is immediately backed up by the text that follows. Istvan 17:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Totalitarian seems a perfectly good word to use in describing Hungary under Mátyás Rákosi.
Sorry. Totalitarian is blatant violation of NPOV. Hungary was a multi-party socialist democracy during Matyas Rakosi. Parties within the Hungarian government at the time included Független Kisgazda-,Földmunkás és Polgári Párt and Nemzeti Parasztpárt
The preceding unsigned comment was added by the same IP user who has repeatedly posted revisionist "statistics" on other pages dealing with other crimes of the Soviet era. (check the page history and the IP user's previous contribs.) The People's Republic of Hungary was by no stretch of any sane imagination a "multiparty socialist democracy"--you make it sound like Sweden. K. Lastochka 20:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC) Also, the other claim that the PRH was not "totalitarian", that a revolution couldn't happen in a totalitarian state, well, that's just silly. Tsar Nicholas II was pretty damn totalitarian, and look what happened to him. K. Lastochka 21:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Fortunately for Wikipedia, such deranged points of view are not tolerated. You are incorrect about conditions of the People's Republic of Hungary as its constitution specifically as a socialist democracy in which power was exercised by the people. I don't know about you, but I think Hungarians would be more informed of conditions of their country rather than some CIA controlled western outlet.
The characterization of Sweden as a democratic socialist state simply laughable as the means of production in that country do not belong to the people. The comparison of the Tsar to the socialist democratic Hungarian People's Republic is also completely inappropriate as Hungary has been liberated from the monarchy since 1918. All of these simpleton buzzword adjectives like "totalitarian" are superfluous and are more importantly a violation of POV.
Power exercised by the people? Don't make me laugh! Whoever you are, you CLEARLY are not on the side of "the people." And I'm not some CIA-brainwashed Western pig, I HATE imperialism...whether it's the USA propping up dictatorships or the USSR propping up the dictatorships!! The Hungarian people clearly were unhappy with their "socialist democratic people's republic", that's why there was a friggin' REVOLUTION. Oh, and don't give me any bullshit about the revolution being backed by the CIA or something. The Americans did not lift a finger to help the PRO-DEMOCRACY rebels, even though they told them over the radio that they would help. Grrr... K. Lastochka 00:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that perhaps Nicolas II wasn't exactly the best example to use. I still don't quite understand your political rationale for not calling him a dictator/totalitarian, but I can agree that maybe using less "inflammatory" words is in the best interest of the article (so it won't attract any more komcsi trolls!) :) Cheers, K. Lastochka 13:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Read what I just said: "I can agree that maybe using less "inflammatory" words is in the best interest of the article." I am not advocating adding harsh adjectives. I was disagreeing with OTHER rationales offered for not using words like dictator and totalitarian. I know perfectly well why Wikipedia is here, and as for my comments on the FAC, we were ALL a little stunned at first by the number of POV complaints we were getting. I have since achieved a better perspective. As for my angry responses to the "comrade" who "contributed" yesterday, responses that were probably ill-conceived as I seem to have now lost credibility and painted myself as a flaming nationalist troll, I apologize for losing my head but in my defense, I doubt I'm the only person in the world who gets a bit touchy when dealing with blatant and ill-informed revisionists, especially those of a pro-Soviet variety, especially in this context.
By the way, I never thanked you for your advice and assistance since we went up for FAC. I would like to take the opportunity now to do so. :) You've been quite helpful! K. Lastochka 22:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
If you ment me above then "your very welcome"! Well I dont know what else to say, hopefully we all in agreement now. - Tutmosis 23:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I meant you, Tutmosis. :) Sorry again for repeatedly losing my temper yesterday and today, been under a lot of stress in the real world lately. I'm really not usually THIS excitable...:) So we're cool? K. Lastochka 00:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Cheers! :) K. Lastochka 02:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
20,000 post-revolution executions is the number I'm most familiar with, and although that number is alleged in the infobox, it isn't referenced. Later, in the aftermath section, even the CIA estimates only 1,200 (which seems low to me). We should definitely get a reference for this, but at very least, the numbers should be consistent. Or maybe I somehow read this wrong, since I've been staring at it for too long. I hope I'm wrong, because this is a pretty big foul up for a FA. -- TheMightyQuill 07:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
At this point, Its important to keep the page within its scope - i.e. covering the same ground as it did when it was declared FA. There are, however some edits which, IMHO are certainly fair game: Tightening references (as did TMQ and Paul) is of course important - Ive been combing the bibliography too, and working on articles linked from this one. Photoedits (without introducing POV in the captions) - (resisting comment on Khruchshev's barnstars was difficult) now that the AHF has declared them public domain, we may "upgrade" or move around some photos. Audio - having the audio clip of Nagy Imre's last radio broadcast would be big. However, it must be converted to OGG format. (its on the AHF 56 portal). Istvan 15:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Im not suggesting following any of these before the anniversary, only afterwards: See Samantha Smith (another FA article) - its a "spoken article" (swanky!) too bad I cant get it to play - perhaps worth emulating. See Warsaw Uprising (also FA) they have a template Template:Warsaw Uprising which links to several sub-articles. This might be a good place to put sub-sections (photogallery, the UN report, quotes from famous people about 56, maybe even a POV/editorial debate (basically all ancillary stuff that doesnt belong in an encyclopedia article). It may be a good release valve for all the POV language if people have a place to vent their spleens about it - like a newspaper giving a big story both a lead article plus a separate editorial. Istvan 15:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Excellent idea about the template! I unfortunately have no idea how to create templates--anyone know? K. Lastochka 20:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Great idea. In the main article I'd still like to incorporate the part about the revolution outside Budapest that I highlighted here. In the template, we could have one article on historical interpretations, that I alluded to here, and one on cultural representations–monuments, celebrations, portrayals in Communist and post-Communist Hungary, but also its reflection in art, as a number of novels, poems, films, songs, paintings, etc. have dealt with the Revolution. So I endorse the idea of post-October 23 expansion in a number of directions. Biruitorul 01:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As for its reflection in art, I just remembered that there is speculation that Shostakovich's 11th Symphony, despite being subtitled "The Year 1905" and purportedly describing the ill-fated popular uprising in Russia in that year, was actually inspired by the 56 revolution, if not an outright musical depiction thereof. Will have to give that one another listen, maybe it's worth including in a list of cultural representations? K. Lastochka 14:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just been listening to it. :) Great piece, Shostakovich at his best. I have a very good book about him ("Shostakovich: A Life Remembered", by Elizabeth Wilson), and it is pretty clear that 56 was why he wrote that symph., will post some quotes later. It is not specifically about 56--it is meant to describe (on one level) the failed democratic revolution in Russia in 1905, but also in a much more universal sense, the tragedies of all suppressed freedom fights, all oppressed nations etc, and 56 was pretty clearly the impetus. K. Lastochka 03:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm horrible with sound files--tried to e-mail an iTunes file to a friend once and nearly crashed both our computers. :) Although if anyone is better than that, the Nagy Imre clip would be fabulous to have. Anyone? (maybe there are some guidelines on the commons?) I'm toying with the idea of setting up a whole auxilliary page to this article, specifically about various perspectives and cultural reactions to 56--we can put a bit about the symphony, some poems (if there are any good ones...there seemed to be some on the AHF but didn't get a chance to read them closely), novels, movies etc., maybe also links to various international newpaper editorials about the uprising. (Nice analogy about M*A*S*H by the way!) Your comment about "stay vigilant" reminded me, I think it would be prudent to fix whatever little details we can tomorrow and Saturday, then lock the page on Saturday night to prevent any possible last-minute vandalism--I've been a bit nervous about that since the komsci-troll incident of a few days ago. :) After all our work, I'd hate to see something ridiculous up on the main page... K. Lastochka 04:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
BTW I will not be around at all tomorrow (Friday) but on Saturday will be able to help out. Cheers! K. Lastochka 04:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This seems to be developing nicely. I haven't read any novels on the revolution, but I have seen two great films that touch upon it. One is Szerelem by Károly Makk, which features a man imprisoned during the revolution returning from prison, and mainly explores the effects of his imprisonment on his wife and mother. The other is Peter Watkins' The Forgotten Faces, in which Watkins recreated scenes from the revolution on a street in Canterbury, England. I can tell you it's so realistic that, until the credits rolled, I kept asking myself, "How did he manage to film this stuff?" It really is quite authentic in feel. I'm sure there are other films – does anyone know of more? Biruitorul 21:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's "Freedom's Fury", but I somehow doubt that one will be any good... K. Lastochka 15:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Of course we'll mention it! :) K. Lastochka 23:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just started the page Cultural representations of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Needs a LOT of work. K. Lastochka 19:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It looks as if the the Andropov and Khrushchev photos have been deleted.-- Paul 04:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they're completely gone. There's absolutely no Andropov photo on the Wiki, and the only good Khr. photo is also under threat of deletion. I think especially the Andropov photo would work well there since most people find it interesting that he was Soviet ambassador to Hungary in 1956. If anyone can get another photo (that's not copyvio) then please put it up. Istvan 06:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
There is one photo of Krchs. showing him as the Time Man of the Year for 1958, if there isn't any other pictures, maybe you could use that (possibly cutting out, the red Time border)-- Dami 17:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
There is irrefutable evidence that marchers and demonstrators were already armed as early as 3 p.m. on 23 October. Ironically, the evidence for this is in a book entirely sympathetic with the revolution, and fully on the side of the freedom fighters.
A large photograph, spread over two pages, shows four demonstrators, 3 men and a woman, marching side by side at the head of a very large procession, entirely filling the bridge and the sidewalks (the university students' march from Pest to Buda, on their way to the Bem statue). The weapons (rifles) are being carried openly, even demonstratively, by the four at the head of the procession. It is, therefore, historically incorrect to state or to imply that AVH forces opened fire on 'unarmed marchers' or 'unarmed demonstrators'. (This is, however, not a justification of the bloodshed that followed and it should not be taken as such.)
Reg Gadney: Cry Hungary! Uprising 1956 (Introduction by George Mikes), publ. Weidenfeld, London (1986) photograph on pp. 20-21. ISBN 0-297-78960-0 Gk1956 14:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting! Is it only those four at the head of the parade that are armed, or is everybody packing heat? It's quite conceivable that those four armed protestors weren't actually AT the rally outside the broadcasting station, and that crowd that the AVH fired on WAS unarmed. Good catch though... K. Lastochka 14:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should say "peaceful" demonstrators instead of specifically saying "unarmed"? K. Lastochka 15:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Except, the photo does not show the event in question--that is, the protest outside the broadcasting headquarters, where the ÁVH fired on the protestors. According to your description, the photo shows the march across the city earlier that afternoon. Unless someone can produce a photo of armed demonstrators at the broadcasting station, the article must stay as it is. K. Lastochka 19:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with K. Lastochka: We have the UN report, testimony from contemporary witnesses, even if they were refugees, and then a photograph, which is not taken at the radio station. How can we presume to overturn the document we are using as a reference, using a picture that doesn't even refer to the event? I would suggest a footnote at "unarmed demonstrators", which mentions that there is photographic evidence that some demonstrators at the earlier protest march carried firearms, but that the UN report specifically reports that the radio crowd was unarmed, until supplied from the ambulance. This detail is important, since is was an inciting event for the widespread armed resistance. Ryanjo 00:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The protestors marching to the parliament were completely unarmed, even the soldiers marching with them were unarmed as the Hungarian army was banned from public displays of weaponry.
To some events there is now a better source than the UN Report - the recording of the Hungarian Radio. It is pretty clear, that there was about 30 minutes between the first shots by the AVH guards (whether these first shots were aimed at the demonstrators or not cannot be deducted from the recording of course) and the first shots from the demonstrators. In any case, by 9 p.m. the first AVH officer was shot dead.
The recording of the Hungarian Radio also clearly shows that Gerő did not call the demonstrators mob (csürhe). The word was actually used by Nagy at arriving to Parliament in the evening (and also called them counter-revolutionaries). However, I cannot source this, though the information is reliable. However, anybody can listen to Gerő's speech and hence the statement in the article is inaccurate.
As to Kossuth Square, there is still no evidence about the people who shot from the roof of the Ministry of Agriculture, thus the definitive statement is highly problematic in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 10:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I know. Unfortunately, the Hungarian Radio sometimes puts on media files, then takes them off, let's hope that eventually it will have a permanent section. Also, most of the people was convinced that Gerő used the word, though he couldn't, as he read a written speech agreed in the Politbureau (though not all members were present). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 15:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
An editor just added the following text:
On November 2, 1956, the Eisenhower administration issued the statement "The government of the United States does not look with favor upon governments unfriendly to the Soviet Union on the borders of the Soviet Union." [4] [5]
This is third-hand information from someone not in a position to know. If there were such telegrams with such language, I would think there would be a copy of of same in the National Archives or the Soviet Archives. It seems to me unwise to include this claim without a better quality source. Other comments?-- Paul 18:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
After reading through the two interviews with Gergely Pongracz, I further doubt that any telegram (if it existed) was influential in Khrushchev's decision to end the Revolution:
"Following the long meeting of the 28th, the most important of the Soviet leaders attended two receptions on the 29th. One was in celebration of the Turkish national day, the other on the occasion of the visit to Moscow of the Prime Minister of Afghanistan. At the first, Ambassador Bohlen of the United States had an important conversation with Marshal Zhukov; Bohlen once again called attention to Secretary of State Dulles's speech delivered two days earlier in Dallas. Dulles had said that the American administration would not consider a Hungary liberated from Soviet rule as a potential ally. (Foreign Relations of the United States 1955-1957, Eastern Europe, Vol. XXV (Washington, DC: Government Printing Office, 1990. 336.)"
Here is a longer extract of Dulles comments in Dallas on October 27 [9]. In addition, another well-referenced analysis of Soviet and American interplay over the response to the Revolution (Csaba Békés: The 1956 Revolution and World Politics, see the section titled "The United States" [10]) has a detailed discussion on what the US State Department said to the Soviets and why Dulles said: ‘We do not look upon these nations as potential military allies.’ It is unlikely that the Hungarians were able to hear the complete context of Dulles statement. Could a misunderstanding of this context be the source of the comments by Gergely Pongracz? Ryanjo 03:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It is clear from the source that the Dulles quote was given out of context - I have removed it from the text, but am happy if you re-insert it in proper context as you wish, with ref. We're up in less than 24 hours now. Best to pick the nits now. Istvan 04:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The statement in the lead, which reads: "Although it had previously agreed to a ceasefire, the Politburo reversed itself and now moved to quash the revolution." Is unsourced and I believe it to be mistaken. Neither the Politburo nor any other Soviet authority had agreed to a cease-fire; there is no such Agreement! It is true that Nagy had "ordered" a cease-fire [note the word "ordered"] but that order was always meant to be an order issued to the AVH, the Hungarian Army, and the civilian freedom fighters. Nagy had no authority over the Soviets. The UNITED NATIONS REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON THE PROBLEM OF HUNGARY, in section 67, states: " On 28 October, Mr. Nagy’s Government ordered a cease-fire.". Subsequent references in the Report to cease-fire are all based on this reference. I have placed a {{fact}}tag on this sentence in the lead. Please do not remove it without first making clear what you are relying on for the staement that the Politburo reversed itself. The Soviet's withdrawal of forces from Bp was no more than a tactical withdrawal from the city, to lick their wounds and to regroup their forces. That's a long way short of "Politburo reversed itself". Gk1956 19:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
In order to prove its dedication to peace to the world, the Soviet Union issued the Declaration of the Government of the USSR on the Principles of Development and Further Strengthening of Friendship and Cooperation between the Soviet Union and other Socialist States on October 30, 1956. This document illustrates the lengths to which Khrushchev destalinized foreign relations. In it, the Soviet Union admits that Moscow had made not only errors but "egregious mistakes" in Eastern Europe and that it committed "violations of the principle of equality in relations between socialist countries." It even suggested the removal of Soviet troops from Warsaw Pact countries. In conclusion, the Declaration pledged to "observe the full sovereignty of each socialist state."
Perhaps "agreeing to a ceasfire" is an imprecise way to state the facts, but the Presidium does appeared to have "reversed itself" from a policy of relative laissez-faire and withdrawal. Would you care to suggest a better wording?Under the auspices of the October 30 Declaration, there was a Presidium meeting in which the leadership in Moscow considered a withdrawal from Hungary. Khrushchev, Zhukov, Molotov and others conceded in a Presidium meeting on October 30 that "the peaceful path - the path of troop withdrawals and negotiations should be followed in Hungary" (Kramer, Mark. “New Evidence on Soviet Decision-Making and the 1956 Polish and Hungarian Crises.” Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars: Cold War International History Project, www.cwihp.si.edu). Thus, it appeared that the Soviet Union was ready to allow events in Hungary to take their own course."
Anyone here already adept at Wikisource? There are at least two articles that belong there - Albert Camus' The Blood of the Hungarians and Bibó István's For Freedom and Truth (both linked from this article, and both now on the EnWiki) - and there may be others... as such, I anticipate that on 23 Oct, we would get tons of comments about these being in the wrong place, maybe even moving or deleting them, etc. If any of the editors here is good on Wikisource, could you please move those over? Istvan 06:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Based on the advice in {{ move to wikisource}}, I've moved For Freedom and Truth. No time for the other one right now... K issL 10:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The reference provided for the sentence: "it [the Politburo] had previously announced a willingness to negotiate the complete withdrawal of troops" does not support the sentence.
What the reference cited states is: "[T]he Soviet Government is prepared to enter into the appropriate negotiations with the government of the Hungarian People's Republic and other members of the Warsaw Treaty on the question of the presence of Soviet troops on the territory of Hungary."
False, corrupt, and misleading citations, once the staple wares of Szabad Nép and Pravda, were wares the Hungarian freedom fighters despised and fought against. Gk1956 13:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Please take note that the above issue has altered the structure of the article - previously, the summary paragraphs bore no references, and as such, simply summarised the text below. Now, we have a ref and a tag. I would recommend removing both, and rewriting the text to accurately reflect the body of the article below. I would recommend using the sentence "Although the Soviet army observed the ceasefire and began negotiating a withdrawal of forces from Hungary,...". The text body below must also be altered to include the referenced statements - (the Soviets observing of the ceasefire, the Pravda editorial and announcement, the invitation to Tököl, etc.) to back it up. But it should stay a summary of the text itself. I will make the changes in a few hours unless someone objects. Istvan 15:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The meaning of the sentence is morphing and wandering. The original point, and the clarified point is that the Soviets first decided to use diplomacy and withdrawl troops, then they changed their minds and crushed the revolution. This is what the original text meant, and what the modified text says. Keeping this in mind and leaving the details for the body of the article, the following text is true and should be left in the intro: Although it had previously announced a willingness to negotiate the withdrawal of troops, the Politburo reversed itself and now moved to quash the revolution.-- Paul 15:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is pretty clear, isn't it?"Under the auspices of the October 30 Declaration, there was a Presidium meeting in which the leadership in Moscow considered a withdrawal from Hungary. Khrushchev, Zhukov, Molotov and others conceded in a Presidium meeting on October 30 that "the peaceful path - the path of troop withdrawals and negotiations should be followed in Hungary" (Kramer, Mark. “New Evidence on Soviet Decision-Making and the 1956 Polish and Hungarian Crises.” Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars: Cold War International History Project, www.cwihp.si.edu). Thus, it appeared that the Soviet Union was ready to allow events in Hungary to take their own course."
It doesnt matter. We are here to record a history from historical references; not read tea leaves, psychoanalyse or guess intent. There are ample references which show that the Soviet Government announced not only an intent/preparation/willingness to negotiate a withdrawal of forces from Hungary, but also actually entered into these negotiations, as it prepared to crush the revolution. There are the above citations to which must be added the Nagy-Andropov communications. To be as generous to the Kremlin as possible is to call this a "reversal", to be less so is to call it "deception" (which certainly worked - defenses were unprepared, and the Hungarian chiefs of staff were under arrest from the outset) But the fact remains - Soviets intitially hesitated, and then were talking peace as they put their military into position to attack Budapest. Remember the Soviets had surrounded Bp 30 mins before the Hungarian delegation even arrived at Thököl. Istvan 21:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states: Although it is widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet military to crush the Revolution, minutes of the October 31 meeting of the Presidium of the Soviet Party indicate that this declaration was only one of several contributing factors. This appears to have the chronology wrong. The CPSU decided to "restore order" on October 31st. On Nov. 1st, alarmed by reports of troop movements into Hungary from the Soviet Union, Nagy declared neutrality and withdrew from the Warsaw Pact. So, unless I am reading the sources and documents incorrectly, withdrawing from the Warsaw Pact was a reaction to hostile moves from the Soviets, not the other way around. Agree, disagree? Further, since the Warsaw Pact announcement was made on November 1, it could not have been a topic of discussion at the Oct. 31 Presidium meeting. Does the article need rewording?-- Paul 01:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
There was a single thing that Khrushchev spoke about at length and repetitiously that was protecting the prestige of the empire. A military pullout from Hungary would give evidence to the weakness of the Soviet Union, and the Western powers would take advantage of that. “If we depart from Hungary, it will give a great boost to the Americans, English, and French -- the imperialists. They will perceive it as weakness on our part and will go onto the offensive. ... To Egypt they will then add Hungary.”(47) Interestingly enough Khrushchev considered the Suez case being decided already at this moment. He also emphasized the domestic political effects of a grave loss of prestige. "[By withdrawing] we would then be exposing the weakness of our positions. Our Party will not accept if we do this."(48) The reference was much rather to the "circles" capable of influencing the leadership than to the grass roots party members, mainly to the army, to state security and the apparatus. What turned out to be fundamentally important was the protection of the Soviet Union's position as a world power and the retaining of the unity of the leadership. Apparently, none of the other issues influencing the decision (ideology, the maintainance of the image, pure military and strategic considerations) had sufficient weight in Khrushchev's thinking to justify a hard-line decision.
Although it is widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet military to crush the Revolution, minutes of the October 31 meeting of the Presidium of the Soviet Party indicate that this declaration was
only one of severalnot a contributing factors.
Good catch - The sentence is best off stating that the mistaken belief (neutrality caused invasion) is wrong because the decision for invasion came before the decision for neutrality, therefore it couldnt have caused it. How about:
Although it is widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet military to crush the Revolution, minutes of the meeting of the Presidium of the Soviet Party reveal that the Kremlin had decided on October 31 to invade, one day before Hungary declared neutrality on November 1.
or something like that. (are you sure about the title "Presidium of the Soviet Party"?) That settles it pretty clearly. Istvan 04:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Should we take off the bullet, and say the following:Hungarian neutrality and withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact represented a breach in the Soviet defensive buffer zone of satellite nations.[71] Soviet's fear of invasion from the West cemented their insistance upon a defensive buffer of allied states on her borders.
The reason to leave the "buffer state" sentence here is that it also corrects a common assumption that fear of Western invasion was an immediate cause of the 4 November attack. Ryanjo 15:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)Although Hungarian neutrality and withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact might have caused a breach in the Soviet defensive buffer zone of satellite nations, [71] fear of invasion from the West did not influence the decision to move against Hungary.
I have uploaded a file of Nagy Imre's appeal. Peter O. ( Talk) 02:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Score! and thank you. Now if I could just figure out how to play it... I plan to put it right below his radio broadcast photo. Istvan 04:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, Real Player will play it (but only from my desktop, not the wikipedia!) This is a very very powerful clip, especially for Hungarians (its his voice in Hungarian followed by an English translation) and it should go up on our page. Trouble is, getting it there and getting it to work... I cant get the file to play via linking it into the caption of the Nagy Imre pic. It keeps displaying the filename which links to the file page, not the file itself. Anyone know a workaround? Perhaps getting a small speaker icon onto the caption of the Nagy Imre image (at the radio desk) that opens the sound file in Real Player? Tall order I know, but Im sure someone knows how to do it easily. Istvan 05:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
OK again, got it up there, but cant play it. Can anyone else? For me, it loads the file and opens real player, but the program requres "additional software" that it cant find on the web. Saving and double-clicking will play it fine (but most readers wont have the patience for this). Can anyone else hear the clip? Istvan 05:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Try Templates Listen(more standalone, better into the text body) or Audio(for inline use, like image caption use):
{{Audio|ImreNagy.ogg|Imre Nagy Speech}}:
{{Listen|filename=ImreNagy.ogg|title=Imre Nagy Speech|description=Radio speech of Imre Nagy in Hungarian and English translation|format=[[Ogg]]}}:
--
Dami 12:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, great clip! I wish to God I understood Hungarian better, I can only pick out about a third of what he's saying, but it's so great to have it! Thanks so much Peter O.!!! K. Lastochka 15:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Dami, I switched from your version A to your version B but could never get that little speaker icon to pop up. If someone, anyone, could get that little icon to appear on the page, then please do so as this really puts this article over the top. Istvan 16:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It must be an overlap problem with the picture. I put the picture on the right, so now I see the icon, hope I didn't ruin the "composition" of the pictures this way.-- Dami 16:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there any way to stick that clip in the box with the picture of Nagy Imre? As is, it's just sort of out there floating around randomly--looks pretty sloppy, but my (botched, subsequently cancelled) attempt to put in in the picture box looked even worse. :) K. Lastochka 18:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me, that seems to see that clip being in the right place all the time after the section discussing his speech and before the next section. I admit the image on the other hand seems to be where it finds its place, but actually its always between the same two words. The result is that at 1024*768 resoulution its right next to the paragraph discussing the speech, in other resolutions its in a way different paragraph. Putting the image in the right paragraph might have the negative consequences of it overlapiing the "sound icon" of the clip, but if the image is made smaller it just might be right.-- Dami 19:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I think at this point it still worked...-- Dami 19:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Its not working for me. Can anyone else hear it? Istvan 02:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Uh-oh, not working for me either... K. Lastochka 03:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I get this error message each time:
Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Lost connection to MySQL server during query in /home/gmaxwell/public_html/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php on line 31
Couldn't connect to database: Lost connection to MySQL server during query
Looks like the in-browser audio playback isnt working properly. Istvan 03:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Same error message for me. HELP! K. Lastochka 03:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I cant get the "play in browser" to work, but clicking on the main link ("Imre Nagy Final Broadcast") will play in windows media player, if you get the .ogg codecs plugins from http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/ (It plays just fine). But the "play in browser" not working is really rotten luck because its such a powerful clip. Istvan 04:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
That's really weird though, "play in browser" worked just fine earlier when I clicked on it here on the talk page. K. Lastochka 05:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
of course NOW it works.....typical! Istvan 14:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Well isn't THAT just the luck of the Hungarians....ridiculous. :) K. Lastochka 14:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
On 20 October, 2006, The Upper House of the Russian Parliament held an Extraordinary Session and issued the following statement: "Whilst we are not answerable for the actions of the Soviet leadership half a century ago, we accept a moral responsibility for the consequences of our past, and we trusts that present-day Hungarian society will appreciate our sincere regrets for the events of October 1956". The statement was carried by 118 votes (120 in favour, 2 abstentions). The statement goes on to pay tribute also to Hungary's "efforts and human sacrifices in pursuit of its right to justice and independence". Gk1956 09:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Nice! Too little too late, of course, but it's appreciated for what it is. K. Lastochka 15:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
They should have written "November" instead of "October". Istvan 16:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Ooh--good catch. Wonder if that little slip was not accidental? *Sigh*.... K. Lastochka 18:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The Stalin statue was on Stalin Square. Stalin Square was on Dozsa Gyorgy ut, (XIV district), about half way between Heroes Square and Thokoly ut. The statue was erected in 1951, on the site of the former Catholic Regnum Marianum Church, which was demolished to make room for the statue. Gk1956 10:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Reading the students 16 points, one may find 21 demands by counting each sentence that begins with "we demand" Points 5, 8, 9 - 12 and 14 all carry two such demands. (points 15 and 16 are not demands but statements) Point 3 does not use the word but is a demand nonetheless. Still, "16 Points" is *most* correct as it is unquestionably accurate. I would not stand on "14 demands" however, and will edit that page accordingly. Istvan 16:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone please check this reference and remove it if inappropriate: "Gati, Charles (2006). Failed Illusions: Moscow, Washington, Budapest and the 1956 Hungarian Revolt. Stanford University Press. ISBN 0804756066. (page 64)." This reference is cited in support of an earlier the statement (now edited) that " By January 1955, he [Rakosi] had Nagy discredited and removed from office."
Nagy was not stripped of Office until April 1955! If the citation is inappropriate please remove it. (I can't check as I have no access to the book.) Gk1956 20:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Depending on the browser and display, the image sizes can screw up the layout (as I only recently discovered). The samller they are, the safer they are (esp. for widescreen layouts). I had increased their size to be more impactful, and it worked well, as long as I had a sidebar (bookmarks) taking up 20% of the screen, but at full screen they stick out into the next sections, dirupting the flow. At this point (less than 2 hours till curtain) if you see an image thats too big then make it smaller, but if you think its too small please just leave it. Istvan 21:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I shrank a few a little bit, nothing drastic though. K. Lastochka 22:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
OK guys, great work. Curtain's up. Let's keep it all together over the next 24h. Istvan 00:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
We did it!! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :) Hajrá Magyarország! All for you, 56'ers! K. Lastochka 00:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
And thanks for your help early on, Kirill! K. Lastochka 00:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello Titoxd, I clarified the ambiguous link to point to the CPSU CC Presidium (later "politburo"). As for DISZ, MEFESZ, and the later KISZ, these Hungarian names (DISZ - Dolgozó Ifúsági Szövetség, roughly "League of Working Youth") it was felt that their inclusion would only make the article a more difficult read, as, e.g. this one is already introduced as the "official communist student union" which already tells 99.9% of the story for 99.9% of readers. Istvan 00:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I just want to congratulate everyone who worked on this article. I came across it a couple of weeks ago after reading about the revolution in a newspaper article, and I was happy to find all the basic information I was after. You've done a great job!
Spebudmak 04:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The link that leads to the BBC website concerning Nagy's reburial no longer works.
Someone copied the Camus letter "Blood of the Hungarians" over to Wikisource, but did not amend the link from the article (I knew this was going to happen). I dont know how to link from there. Could someone please repair it? Thanks. Istvan 01:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Done. :) K. Lastochka 02:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Istvan 02:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually looks like what I did wasn't quite right--somebody fixed it though. K. Lastochka 02:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Your edit got reverted, I couldnt fix it properly, so I just restored the text in the wikipedia article (no harm in having it in both places) (you'd think) Still, it would be best if someone could link it inline directly to the Wikisource. Istvan 02:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
That's precisely what I tried to do, why did it get reverted? K. Lastochka 03:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Albert Camus would call it absurd, for sure (pa-da-bing). Your edit wasn't really reverted, so much as restored to the previous (unsatisfactory) structure (not by me). If nobody could help with the interwiki link, then I figured its best to put the text back in the wikipedia article. No harm no foul. Istvan 04:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please block all these anonymous IP vandals from messing with the article?! It's getting really annoying! K. Lastochka 14:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Would all vandals please be so kind as to make your mischief somewhat CLEVER, so we can at least have a laugh while we're cleaning it up?! I fail to see what's so hysterically funny about the word "penis". K. Lastochka 23:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
True, true...just some wishful thinking. :) K. Lastochka 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
While I believe that the uprising was justified, I do NOT think that it was part of the Cold War, unless one counts some kind of covert CIA involvement. The Cold War was between Soviet and US allied forces. This was between the Hungarian populace and Soviet Union. Also I haven't heard it referred to as a Revolution, but if it is, then surely the Spanish Civil War and the Irish Uprising must be counted as one. Not to mention the Intifada.-- MacRusgail 16:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Shakura that it makes sense to consider the 56 revolt part of the cold war. I do not agree with Nonencyclopedic that the article has been written by "cheerleaders" "incapable of writing an NPOV article" with "no decent grasp of what source referencing is about." It's true that some very proud Hungarians have been working on this page, I am not ashamed of that. But we have been very diligent about citing sources, and except for some minor battles, have addressed the NPOV concerns that have come up to this point. K. Lastochka 16:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyone wanting to remove the NPOV tag has my support. The user that placed it (twice now) has yet to give a compelling reason, IMHO. Istvan 18:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought these were supposed to be locked when featured.....
Most (if not all) of the images in the article portray the rebels exeptionally from the good side (not suprisingly though, if you take a look at the name of the organization they were taken from). I believe some photos like this and this, which depict bad actions comitted by the rebels, should be added. I'm not sure if these images are copyrighted, I've just tried to connect the archive, will be waiting for their reply now.-- Shakura 16:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Yuck, should we really put such gruesome pictures on a public internet site? We mention that some Soviet troops and communist sympathisers were brutalized by revolutionaries, do we really have to hit people over the head with it? K. Lastochka 16:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Imre Nagy, Pal Maleter and Géza Losonczy have their articles - could Miklos Gimes be translated from the Finnish and Attila Szigethy be given one (and some photos for several). Jackiespeel 17:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The article starts with the format "month date, year,", but then moves to "date month." I began scrolling from the top and changing them to the former format for consistency (and also to remove the excessive date wikilinks). I'm just letting people know it has nothing to do with personal preference, I really don't care which format is used, just because I started from the top in editing the article. - IstvanWolf 22:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
why is there a picture of stalin's dead body in this article?
This isn't a bad point. Perhaps this could be made clearer? - TheMightyQuill 05:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, we set out to do something big and accomplished it precisely as planned. Special thanks to Paul h and Ryanjo for doing so much of the work - checking refs, editing, answering challenges, etc. Thanks to K Lastochka for being the spark plug and drivetrain and getting the word out. Also to Alensha for help in publicising this project. Thanks to our first magyar admin NCurse for intervening in a very timely manner to safeguard our photos from deletion on the Wiki Commons (they almost all got taken down!) Thanks to Mr. Bagdi and Mr. Kocsis of the AHF for providing those photos and putting the permission blurb on their website. Thanks to Dami and Peter O. for helping for several reasons, especially getting that Nagy Imre clip up and going. All those who helped in the review process, esp. Kirill Lokshin. TMQ, Tutmosis, Raul654, Biruitorul and (Im sorry if I forget anyone) without whom we would have simply made "just another very good article" somewhere in the background. But remember, the main credit goes to those who fell doing something that very few have ever been brave enough to do, and it is right and good to remember them, and for they and their families to feel our admiration and know that we do not forget them. Thanks guys (and gals). Istvan 01:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I just said pretty much the same thing on the magyar noticeboard, although not as eloquently. :) It's been so much fun! You guys have been great to work with and I hope we can do this again sometime (1848 article, anyone?) IT WAS ALL FOR YOU, 56'ERS!!!!!!!! WE WILL NEVER, EVER FORGET YOU!!! K. Lastochka 02:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
"Well done gentlemen (and ladies if any)"--yep: me and Alensha, for two. Military/political history is no longer an exclusive mens' club! :) K. Lastochka 04:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Alternatively, one might say the 20 year-old "adults" have been so bombarded with the tales of heroism and violent reaction to communist oppression that they felt the need to re-enact these acts of violence in the streets of Budapest, foolishly equating the bumbling incompetence/arrogance of the current prime minister with the cruel dictatorship of Rákosi. Beware, although history is of utmost importance, the lessons imparted are not always the ones that are intended to be taught. -- 70.71.155.24 05:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The thing that really bothers me about the mess in BP is, the dumb hooligans who have been making all the trouble are discrediting the legitimate complaints of the peaceful/not far-right protestors out there. If I were in BP I would be at the peaceful protests, just not in with the hooligans. Unfortunately, it seems that in the eyes of the world, ALL the events in BP are considered to be the work of hard-right wackos and rowdies. Grrr.... K. Lastochka 17:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
An editor has changed "communist" to "socialist" in this sentence: "as well as the role of Hungary in providing refuge to East Germans during the 1989 protests against that socialist government," and pointed to the article on the GDR for backup. The GDR article currently refers to "socialist state," but on the talk page there is voluminous discussion and absolutely no consensus. As the lawyers might say, "socialist" is a necesary part of the description, but is not sufficient. The GDR was socialist, but it was effectively a one-party state with a repressive and totalitarian political climate enforced by the hated secret police. East Germans didn't risk being shot at the Berlin Wall because they were unhappy with the results of the last free election. And finally, the sentence above makes no sense with "socialist." What were these people fleeing from? Confiscatory taxation? I'm changing it back to "communist."-- Paul 15:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The GDR was socialist, but it was effectively a one-party state with a repressive and totalitarian political climate enforced by the hated secret police.
You have demonstrated ignorance in regard to political science. If you knew anything about communism, you would know that it has no government and has no social classes. This was not the case in DDR. The DDR constitution as well as the constitution of other socialist states including USSR distinctly identified themselves as socialist. Communism was only ever spoken in the future tense e.g "on the road to communism".
You my friend are a liar. DDR was not a one-party state. The following political parties were present in the legislature of DDR:
Socialist Unity Party
Christian Democratic Union
Democratic Farmers' Party of Germany
Liberal Democratic Party of Germany
National Democratic Party of Germany
Revisionists and liars, wow, you really only get a chance to be called that on Wikipedia!
This article does not at all hide its sympathy for the terroristic, fascistic rebels who destroyed Hungary in 1956. While I myself have a POV of the events, it would be appreciated if there was a balanced tone to this. To call the 1956 violence in Hungary a revolution is just as POV as calling it a counter-revolution.
Evidence shows that this movement was in fact staunchly sympathetic to the reactionary Mindzenty and hugely anti-Semitic against Matyas Rakosi and Erno Gero. Here is what the prominent French politician Maurice Thorez whose party controlled 25% of the legislature had to say:
After the collapse of Hitlerism the Hungarian people had established the foundations of a socialist system. But errors in economic organization, and errors that compromised the links between the government and the popular masses had been committed by the former leadership of the Worker’s Party. In addition, a clique of traitors, grouped around Nagy, took advantage of the circumstances to openly play the enemy’s game and deliver Hungary to the counter-revolution, which had been plotting in the shadows. In fact, reactionary elements had maintained ties in a country that had suffered for a quarter of a century — from 1920-1945 — the fascist dictatorship of Horthy. Under slogans aimed at fooling the people, Hungarian fascists in Budapest massacred militant Communists, sacked Party offices, burned books, and attacked public buildings...Some of these fascists were to participate as activists in the plot of Algiers, as well as in attacks against worker’s organizations in France.[1]
The return of the capitalists and the large landowners, the reconstitution of a reactionary and revanchard base in the heart of the Danube basin, the threat of aggression against the socialist states and of war in Europe: such was the program of Hungarian counter-revolution, encouraged from without by the imperialist powers — in the first place by American imperialism — and acting within by trickery, violence, and betrayal of the national interests. By responding — in conformity with the Warsaw pact — to the call for assistance sent out by the worker and peasant government of Budapest, in lining up at the side of the workers of Hungary, in aiding them in putting down fascist barbarism, the Soviet Union was being faithful to the principles of proletarian internationalism. The Red Army fulfilled its class obligations.
http://marxists.org/reference/archive/thorez/1960/1956.htm#n1 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.110.128.113 ( talk • contribs) .
Um...who ARE you? K. Lastochka 20:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This is exactly what the heading says. I wonder how it belongs to this talk page, though! :o) K issL 20:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't like it when I see the world "fascistic" used everywhere, in most of the cases those who write it don't even know what it means. The 1956 events are accepted to be a revolution even by the now socialist government of Hungary. -- V. Szabolcs 22:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The best possible testimony to this Featured Article's impact is given both directly above, and by the many (even by Wiki standards) hits from trolls and vandals both during and after its time upon the world stage.
It is interesting that the trolling seemed very vörös and not nationalistic (neither T, J, nor P who usually haunt Hungarian topics - showed up) - its seems we DID find the last of the English-speaking Stalin apologists and pulled them out of the shadows kicking and screaming.
Of further interest are the type of objections raised - e.g. "this was not a revolution", "this was not part of the cold war", "they were not communist/dicatatorship/totalitarian/neo-Stalinist/authoritarian" - which might be called by some "inane" (by those in command of proper English, that is) and anti- WP:SNOW by others.
Finally, and most deliciously, (I swear I couldnt have written a better segue) in two thoughtfully-composed passages above are found the two endstations of the red apologists' argument: The anonymous one could have been copied verbatim from the UN report, i.e. the revolution was coopted by fascists, clerics, restorationists, western spies and capitalists and the USSR responded (alone) to the plea of the new worker peasent government (that was founded minutes after Soviet Tanks opened fire on Budapest) and it was, in the considered judgement of the UN "contradictory" and as far as they could judge, mostly "without basis".
At the other end is pure muddle and fog: the semantic argument whose only conclusion is that communism never existed. Ive heard this one at least a million times in parlor conversation, always arising when a soviet-apologist both 1)is loosing an argument, and 2)hears a Westerner utter the word "socialism" or "communism" (in *any* context) there follows, automatically, a dogmatic monologue on how the USSR and every Warsaw pact country was socialist and not communist because communism was an ideal that never existed, but rather was to be attained in the perfect world blah blah blah blah puke. Sorry tovaris, but this is the English Wikipedia and we speak English. We get our definitions from the OED, Webster's and history as it *happened*, not as mis-predicted in the Diamat. Helmut Schmidt was a socialist. Erich Honnecker was a communist. Please stop the buffoonery and learn the language, and instead of expecting westerners to appreciate the finer semantical points of marxism (or any other dead language), first envy their inexperience. Istvan 21:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Excellent post as usual Istvan! :) K. Lastochka 22:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Most of the above consists of amateurish liberal ranting disseminated by imperialist institutes and the corporate press. In order to compensate for their lack of arguments, the liberal liars above use such absurd ad hominem attacks plucked from the asshole such as "red apologist", "Neo-Stalinist", and whatever nonesense they were able to think of at the moment. To have a different view on history does not render one "apologist" or "revisionist." Using this same sort of logic, I could just as easily call you "white guard", "McCarthyist" "fascist", "contra" "Hitlerist", etc for your opposition to communists. These sorts of superifical labels do not amount to any constructive discussion.
It is incorrect to call the bloodshed perpetrated by the Horthyist fascists in Hungary a revolution because of the support it received from financial imperialists manifested by the propaganda organ Radio Free Europe. In addition, it was staunchly Russophobic with chants like "Russians go home" even though Russians were just 1 out of 100+ national groups of the USSR. Additionally, the statue of Stalin who liberated the country from fascist domination was torn down. Policies in Hungary influenced by Stalin had proven to be of enormous benefits to the Hungarian people: the feudal system was eliminated, women were liberated, there was massive enrollment in quality public schools, and drastic advances in medical care. The workers were given the means of production, social welfare was implemented, industrialization was pursued, and education was drastically expanded. Phenomenal success was made in each of these areas. In fact, the evidence shows that Hungary experienced economic decline due to the revisionist policies of Kadar.
Yet Washington's role in the Hungarian revolution soon became mired in controversy. One of the most successful weapons in the East-West battle for the hearts and minds of Eastern Europe was the CIA-administered Radio Free Europe. But in the wake of the uprising, RFE's broadcasts into Hungary sometimes took on a much more aggressive tone, encouraging the rebels to believe that Western support was imminent, and even giving tactical advice on how to fight the Soviets. The hopes that were raised, then dashed, by these broadcasts cast an even darker shadow over the Hungarian tragedy that leaves many Hungarians embittered to this day.
The above was a blatant violation of international law in that it sought to overthrow a legally elected government. The CIA actively sought to overthrow a government in order for a quisling like Nagy to rise to power.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB76/
The workers in Hungary already controlled their means of production. The oppressive Catholic church had been effectively undermined; but the Horthyists sought to change this shown by the sympahty they employed towards the fascist Mindzenty. Society as a whole was given freedom but the demagogue Nagy would effectively have returned Hungary to the feudal conditions of the interwar period. Socialism would be rolled back and Hungary's population would have endured massive poverty starting not in 1989 but in 1956. The Horthyist fascists were easily defeated because they did not have the popular support of the proletariat. The counter-revolution was led by spoiled university students.
As for the accusation that the 1956 Uprising was an anti-semitic one: While maybe not 100% without basis (as anti-semitism has long been present in Hungary and still is, and many Jews were communist)
This anti-Semitism is quite disgusting particularly the mythology of "Red Bolsheviks". With the same logic, we can try and excuse the Holocaust on the basis that "many Jews were communist".
The evidence shows that the Horthyists unleashed violence because they were prmised assistance from the West. When the Soviet peacekeepers proceeded to Budapest, hooligans responded by hurling Molotov cocktails. Nearly 700 many young Russian boys conscripted into the army were killed in the savage violence.
"they were not communist/dicatatorship/totalitarian/neo-Stalinist/authoritarian"
Communist: There was not a party in Hungary called communist. Nowhere in Hungary's constitution was it stipulated that Hungary was in the communist stage. Although right wingers like to dismiss this simple fact, POV misinformation is not permitted here.
Dictatorship: Neither was it a dictatorship. A wide array of political parties from a proletarian background were directly elected to regional communes. In a country where feudalism had been abolished, dictatorship no longer existed.
Totalitarian: Neither was it totalitarian. There was always factional strife between the nationalists led by Janos Kadar and the orthodox Marxists led by Rakosi and Gero. Additionally, there were numerous political parties present in Hungary's legislature -- far more than what has been found in America.
Neo-Stalinist: Neither was there Stalinism because there is no such ideology as Stalinism. Stalin by 1956 had already been dead. Stalinism is a pejorative POV term propgated by Trotskyist losers who never got anywhere in the socialist movement. If anything is to be attributed to "Stalinism", it is modernization, social welfare, progress, and autonomy for minorities.
(that was founded minutes after Soviet Tanks opened fire on Budapest)
That is an absolute lie as party leader Janos Kadar as well as deputy prime minister András Hegedüs had requested for the Soviet peacekeepers to restore order. Hegedüs's ouster on 24 October 1956 was essentially a coup pulled off by right wingers under the influence of Nagyist demagoguery. Neither was there an invasion because thousands of Soviet peacekeepers had been deployed in Hungary long before October 1956. The coward Nagy then defected to Yugoslavia, leaving the country without a proper leader. Janos Kadar then assumed the position discarded by Nagy and proceeded to restore order. With the help of Soviet peacekeepers, the Horthyist fascists were crushed.
Janos Kadar, Radio Kossuth (24th October, 1956)
Workers, comrades! The demonstration of university youth, which began with the formulation of, on the whole, acceptable demands, has swiftly degenerated into a demonstration against our democratic order; and under the cover of this demonstration an armed attack has broken out. It is only with burning anger that we can speak of this attack by counter-revolutionary reactionary elements against the capital of our country, against our people's democratic order and the power of the working class. Towards the rebels who have risen with arms in their hands against the legal order of our People's Republic, the Central Committee of our Party and our Government have adopted the only correct attitude: only surrender or complete defeat can await those who stubbornly continue their murderous, and at the same time completely hopeless, fight against the order of our working people.
At the same time we are aware that the provocateurs, going into the fight surreptitiously, have been using as cover many people who went astray in the hours of chaos, and especially many young people whom we cannot regard as the conscious enemies of our regime. Accordingly, now that we have reached the stage of liquidating the hostile attack, and with a view to avoiding further bloodshed, we have offered and are offering to those misguided individuals who are willing to surrender on demand, the opportunity of saving their lives and their future, and of returning to the camp of honest people.
Wow. How long did you spend writing that? You know, if you really know as much about Hungary as you say you do, do you think you could bother to spell those names right? The names are spelled Kádár, Gerő, Hegedűs, Mindszenty, and Rákosi. And next time you call the 56ers "fascists", would you please be so kind as to supply some valid, verifiable evidence backing up that assertion? Also, I really doubt Horthy had any hand in the revolution, since he had been in exile in Portugal ever since his Nuremburg trial in '49. Also I just noticed this that you wrote: Stalinism is a pejorative POV term propgated by Trotskyist losers who never got anywhere in the socialist movement. LOL! It could also be said that "Trotskyist losers" is a pejorative POV term propagated by Stalinist creeps, but let's not go there. :) K. Lastochka 18:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you JP for tirelessly confirming the point of this section. I will dig out an élmunkás medal for you too. Istvan 18:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
LOL, Istvan, you just sent me scrambling to my magyar-angol dictionary again. :) Now that all has been made clear I agree completely. :) Memo to all Reds, Communists, Socialists, Trotskyist losers and Marxists: no matter how strongly you believe in your ideas, you won't find a receptive audience for them here, so do us all a favor and don't bother posting. K. Lastochka 21:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Settle down, all I said was that communists are unlikely to find a receptive audience on this particular thread, which is true, and not just because of MY opinions. In my previous post, I corrected some spelling errors, requested that if he must call the 56ers "fascists" that he provide some explanation as for why he uses that term, stated my doubt that Horthy was involved in 56, and was amused by his comment about Stalinists and Trotskyist losers. I sincerely hope I am not in fact such a bad Wikipedian as you think I am. K. Lastochka 00:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
No, you're not a crappy wikipedian. In fact, from what I've seen, you're a very dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent wikipedian. You obviously feel strongly about this subject, and we're all biased when it comes to things we feel strongly about. While I think the editing of this article has reflected a bias, you (and others) have managed to keep it in check, which has made for a great article. Your comments above, seemed a little less restrained, that's all. I guess that's what the discussion page is for. Living for a couple years in the Czech Republic and Hungary has given me a greater appreciation for the devastation caused by communism, but it's also exposed me to the anti-communist attitudes there (particularly among the youngest generation which experienced little more of communism than I did in Canada) which sometimes felt like being thrown back in time to the red scare of the 1950s. It took the German public over 20 years to begin to deal with the Nazi period in a rational way, accept some responsibility etc... and even that is far from a dead issue. Maybe Eastern Europeans need more time to deal with their past.
I also have real animosity to nationalism, and Hungarian nationalism sometimes seems particularly strong to me. I mean, Hungarians sing their national anthem on New Years. That's almost as bizarre as wearing a maple leaf on your backpack all over the world. I've never looked at the Trianon discussion page looks like, but can only cringe imagining it. Contributors to this page, on the other hand, have displayed an incredible ability to discuss things amicably, and I don't see why a communist (or certainly, a socialist) shouldn't be able to enter the discussion constructively. A Stalinist... well, that might a bit much. =) -- TheMightyQuill 04:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
According to Evenimentul Zilei, a Romanian newspaper, thousands of Romanians in Bucharest, Timişoara, Cluj protested in 1956 in support of the Hungarian Revolution and against the Soviets. The result was that 1000 students were expelled, thousands were arrested, sentences given totaled 1400 years and 30 people got the death penalty, of which 24 were executed.
Maybe we should integrate this in the article. bogdan 21:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it's worth a brief mention in the article, just not in great detail (create a new article for that.) K. Lastochka 03:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it belongs - events in Romania and Hungary are often linked to some degree. Something on post-56 Poland would fit too. Id be happy to pick something up in your article, unfortunately I do not read Romanian. Istvan 04:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Wow, I already forgot about the template. It's a great place for articles about reaction in Romania Poland etc. Unfortunately I can also be of no help reading Romanian--I know about three words. Polish I might be able to figure out some, but don't count on it. :) Are there also connections w/ Prague Spring that would be worth writing about? K. Lastochka 05:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Good, let's try to work on that template. For some reason I can't access the Evenimentul article, but allow me to translate a portion of this Ziua article:
Communist Romania had a role to play in these events. Gheorghiu Dej's team immediately condemned the Hungarian Revolution and sent Valter Roman and Aurel Malnasan ( see this for some Hungarian material on the subject) on a special mission. He contributed to the capture of Imre Nagy, who would be held at Snagov. The historian Florin Constantinescu summarizes the responsibility of the Romanian leader in these terms: "Gheorghiu-Dej fully deserved, through the ruthlessness he showed toward the Hungarian Revolution, the "certificate" decreed by Khrushchev, when he characterised his Romanian counterpart as "a true Bolshevik".
Events in the neighbouring country had an echo here as well. Catholic priests and Magyar intellectuals showed, one way or another, their solidarity with the insurgents. It is known that over a thousand Magyar inhabitants of Cluj were prevented, at the last moment, from organising a planned meeting in a cemetery. The most active were the students and pupils from the upper grades [ie, late high school]. In Timişoara, Cluj, Oradea, Bucharest and Târgu-Mureş students distributed manifestos and proclamations calling for the example of the Hungarian youth to be followed. After the leaflets were distributed, 39 students were arrested in Bucharest. In Timişoara, about 500 students protested in support of the insurgents. The Army and the Securitate occupied the university campus, arresting some 3000 youths, of whom 31 were condemned [to death]. The Securitate went on to begin a vast surveillance operation against the Magyar population of Romania, which later became state policy. Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej and his colleagues in the PCR leadership saw in the events of 1956 an argument for intensifying repression. A relaxation of repression occurred only at the beginning of the 1960s. De-Stalinisation in Romania, which followed de-Stalinisation in the other states under the USSR's aegis, happened, over time, because of the Revolution in Hungary. The 1956 Revolution had a determining role in the change in nature of European Communism, in that it came to renounce its most abject practices. Biruitorul 05:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know which ministry was officially in charge of AVH/AVO forces? Gk1956 11:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The ÁVH was created in 1944 by the Soviets and placed under the Interior Ministry in 1945/46. In 1949, the border guards and security police were placed under the ÁVH and reported directly to the government (leaving only the regular police under the interior ministry).(ref UN doc paras 426, 427) I dont see anything indicating their being under defense - in fact they were criticised for not being under any supervision at all. Istvan 17:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The urge to do something has struck me, so I've ripped the Warsaw Pact template and rather crudely made it into the skeleton you see here. The question is: is such a thing desireable? Will those or similar red links be filled anytime soon? Discuss. Biruitorul 06:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
File:1956 Oct 23 Budapest Bem demonstration.jpg |
Hungarian Revolution of 1956 |
I applaud the inclusion of a refined template box - I would include some items which were edited out of the article, like "historical debate" text, one for "notable quotes", "famous people" (sounds like jeapordy categories), 56 effects in other countries, perhaps a list of 56'ers (where anyone could add their name) and where they are now (not a bad use of cheap disk space) and perhaps a "POV Corner" (named "soapbox"?) where people could write more opinionated text - including the Kádár-apologist argument (these are also part of the story) I think we should put in some type of prominent link to the AHF since they provided the images and permission which really made this article shine. These are my ideas - any more? Istvan 15:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I was getting the urge to do something, too. I don't think we need those first three categories, that look like they just redirect to different spots in the main article--a bit redundant. Otherwise very good ideas, I love the idea of putting up a list of 56'ers where people can list themselves if they were there--can you imagine if some of them have been following our progress here? :) The template is such a good idea, I remember having to delete a lot of quote lists, random facts, debates, and now we have a place to put them back! Maybe we can have a section of little stories from the resistance, I've heard stuff about, like, the revolutionaries threw pots and pans all over one street and from a distance they looked like land mines and scared the heck out of the Soviet troops. :) K. Lastochka 16:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
(PS this is random but has anybody seen Szabadság, szerelem yet? Is it good? I want to see it but it hasn't hit theaters Stateside yet... K. Lastochka 16:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC))
OK, I've modified it accordingly. My idea is that before we go and create random additional articles about the Revolution, let's instead try and reach some consensus over here about what would be desireable, giving this project some structure. Of the five ideas I've put in, one already exists. Do the other four seem good to you? If you'd like to see others, by all means add them into the template. Biruitorul 00:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I've removed a See also section (not recommended in featured articles) with one link pointing to Special moments of Hungary's 1956 uprising. I also AfD'd the latter. I believe that its content contains some encyclopedic info (which belongs here) and some not quite so encyclopedic stuff (which should be deleted). K issL 13:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
To start, ths title of this article is extremely POV in favour of the revisionist Nagyites. Encarta Encyclopedia calls this event Hungarian Revolt of 1956. For "1956 Hungarian Uprising", Proquest database puts forth 917 results. "1956 Hungarian Revolution" on the same database puts forth only 690 results by comparison.
Out of a population of ten million, no more than 15 thousand insulated reformists and fascists were part of this counterrevolution. It failed precisely due to its lack of popular support.
Compare this to the 10 million Frenchmen who in May 1968 went out on strike and organized councils for the administration of plants, debated political, social, and cultural questions endlessly, worked at establishing contacts with the farmers, and groped toward contact with the students. In a word, they set in motion what appeared to be a genuine workers' revolution.
On October 25, a mass of protesters gathered in front of the Parliament Building. ÁVH units began shooting into the crowd from the rooftops of neighboring buildings
According to Charles Gati: "Suddenly, indiscriminate shooting began. It is still uncertain who started it…
Real power was in the hands of Mátyás Rákosi, a Communist trained in Moscow.
This right here is fucking bogus. It is a ridiculous attempt to depict him as a puppet. Rakosi had been a people's commissar during the Hungarian Soviet Republic which was smashed in August 1919. He was then imprisoned from 1925 until 1940. Following his release in 1940, Rakosi sought refuge in USSR.
Simply because the French workers and students were not armed and did not resort to violence even after systematic police brutality.
Revolution was neither limited to students nor in Paris. It in fact kicked in when the students received the support of the workers went to strike numbering at 10 million or two thirds of the entire French labour force. Whereas the majority of French society supported the revolution, a small psychotic fringe in Hungary beared a similar characteristic.
In concern to Rakosi, his presence in the USSR is irrelevant. His Marxist political career started before the formation of the USSR. Josip Tito fought in the Soviet Russian Red Army during Russia's civil war. He even became a member of the Soviet Communist Party in the 1930s. This, however, is completely irrelevant seeing how Tito was to become major anti-Soviet politician. Jacob Peters
Agree Szabolcs. Mr. Peters, as long as you keep using your own POV statements to counter our own perceived ones, you're just wasting your breath. If you have something serious to say, by all means say it, calmly, rationally and well-sourced. As for our use of the word "revolution", if you look around a bit you'll find that we debated extensively what to call it. We finally settled on "revolution"--and one of the main reasons was, in Hungarian it is called a revolution ("forradalom"), also it is just common parlance in English. Honestly, if the title of the piece is the biggest thing you can find to complain about, than I think we're doing fine. Also please stop referring to all the 56ers as "fascists". It's very rude and insulting to their memory. K. Lastochka 14:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, Mr. Peters, I just noticed another of your precious little phrases: the events in Hungary were supported by a "small psychotic fringe"?? Please, if you're telling US to get rid of "POV", get rid of your own first!! No one takes the pot seriously when he's calling the kettle black! K. Lastochka 14:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
You have still yet to address the POV nature of the title when the plurality of results on Proquest database is 1956 Hungarian Uprising. You still have yet to address this lie:
On October 25, a mass of protesters gathered in front of the Parliament Building. ÁVH units began shooting into the crowd from the rooftops of neighboring buildings
According to Charles Gati in "Failed Illusions": "Suddenly, indiscriminate shooting began. It is still uncertain who started it…
This uprising was fascist for the following reasons:
-Nagy’s rapid move to the right, towards accommodation with capitalist parties and NATO imperialists;
-the lynchings of communists;
-anti-semitic attacks against Jews.
And then there is also the worship by the rebels of that fascist scum Mindzenty. While you all claim that this was a revolution against authority, it was in fact accomodating the most oppressive authority that has ever existed.
There were no appeals to proletarian internationalism – nationalism, not internationalism, was the ideology that united all the rebels.
By contrast, the Cultural Revolution in China a decade later was mainly a revolt from the Left against revisionist leadership. So the Cultural Revolution is slandered, while the Hungarian revolt is lauded.
Right-wing capitalists, aristocrats, and Fascists had ruled Hungary for decades. These forces still had a following.
And please, don't use the words "fascist", "Nazi", "revisionist", etc. if you don't know what they mean!
Nagy was a revisionist who accomodated the NATO imperialists. The rebels who chanted Russophobic slogans and carried out anti-Semitic violence were fascists.
According to Gati: "The Soviet leadership in Moscow was not trigger-happy."
The key Soviet leadership documents, now published, show that Khrushchev would have settled for a multi-party system and a neutral Hungary. But they would not permit a right-wing regime such as had invaded the USSR in 1941 to return to power allied with NATO.
Gati: "More than anything else, hypocrisy characterized the U.S. approach to Hungary."
Rather than "liberating" Hungarians from socialism, the Republicans under Eisenhower and Nixon were "interested in liberating Congress from the Democrats." (p.218) They were actually "relieved when the Russians came back and squelched the Hungarian Rising." (p.181)
The last thing the US wanted was a belt of neutral countries in Eastern Europe, though both the Eastern Europeans themselves and the Soviet leadership did want it. Radio Free Europe was "sympathetic to the pre-1945 Horthy regime" – the fascists who had invaded the USSR.
''The Hungarian Revolution[3] of 1956 was a spontaneous nationwide revolt
This is false as it this was touched off both by the nationalist uprising in Poland and Khruschev's slanderous speech about Stalin. It received the active support from Radio Free Europe as Gati has documented. This was not spontaneous.
against the Communist government of Hungary
This phrase demonstrates the lack of education on the part of the contributors of this article. There is no such thing as a communist government. There is no government in communism. Moreover, there was in Hungary throughout duration of the People's Republic a multi-party coalition. When the USSR liberated Hungary in 1944, a genuine multi-party provisional government was formed that included 127 Communists, 123 Smallholders, 94 Social Democrats, 63 trade unionists, 39 National Peasants, 22 Democrats, 30 independents. The Government Bloc which won 60% in the elections of 1947 was composed of communists, social democrats, smallholders, and national peasants.
and its Soviet-imposed policies, lasting from October 23 until November 10, 1956.
This here is further bullshit. Soviet policies comprised collective farming. There was not collective farming ever in the People's Republic of Hungary.
Dear JP, Once again you fill the section with material exactly befitting its heading. Truth in advertising!
Its good to see you have read a book on the subject. If you read another one, and perhaps a third, you will quickly realise how messy a business is revolution (and history writing!). I applaud you for three things: firstly, keeping this page from getting too boring (I miss the excitement); secondly, confirming the article's NPOV by mustering only fringe, pedantic and regurgitated objections; and finally for turning the shrill ad-hominem down a notch and putting your objections into more succinct, organised form.
You are right that Moscow was not as "trigger-happy" as they might have been (e.g. Berlin June 17, 1952 comes to mind) and that the US behaved shamefully - whether the operative word is "hypocracy", "confusion", "ineptitude" or "negligence" is a matter of debate. Please note that the article does not laud the West; it accurately describes 56 as unfolding without much involvement from them.
But your playing the religion card (antisemitism, Mindszenty) is a complete non-sequiter. This article neither condemns nor credits any religious or ethnic group (even ethnic Russians) - you are in essence railing against anecdotes and others' writings, not ours. This article, and its cited references, tell the story quite well without all this. China's Cultural Revolution is also, just like the CDU in the DDR, irrelevant to 56.
And the other points are just plain wrong: Not being communist and lacking "proletarian internationalism" is not evidence of fascism (unless everyone to the right of Tito was a fascist). The regrettable episodes of "street justice" were perpetrated mostly against the ÁVH for being repressive monsters, not communist. And in the turmoil, everyone - even the ÁVH - settled scores. In fact, worker's councils often took people into protective custody to thwart the mob. And yes, the lynchings were wrong - there were many young kids in the ÁVH who may have been repulsive punks, but they did not deserve to die. Their deaths do not prove motive beyond the actions themselves which can only be interpreted at face value. And there is no evidence of NATO or the West exerting influence upon Nagy or the National Government - there is plenty of evidence of the newly formed "worker's councils" successfully exerting influence upon them.
And how on Earth do you figure the West didnt want to see Hungary Neutral, but the USSR did?!? Not even the Kádár apologists would dare put that one forward. In 1955, Austria's neutrality drove a big neutral wedge from Geneva to the Hungarian border giving NATO a logistical headache (look at the map and see how easy it was to move troops and tanks between Trieste and Nürnberg). A neutral Hungary would have extended that wedge into the East, creating a similar headache for the Warsaw pact - Good for NATO, bad for Moscow.
JP, you share most Westerners' compulsion to interpret events through the restrictive prism of East-West rivalry; any move which displeases Moscow is freely branded with any of the tired perjoratives - "imperialist" "nazi" "captialist" etc. - these are used indiscriminately. As far as using these perjoratives, I agree with Szabolcs - please understand them first. However, making up new ones, e.g. "Nagyite", is of course fair game as neologisms are always fun and interesting (you cant misuse something you just invented). BTW I'm happy to be called a "Nagyite". Istvan 21:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
JP, for whatever you post next, please try and get a handle on the various shadings and levels of intensity of certain words. I'm not asking you to be the next Petőfi Sándor, but please try not to throw inflammatory words around like confetti. It makes people take your arguments even less seriously. For example, a sampling of words you use interchangeably: capitalist, imperialist, fascist. "Capitalist" is just a descriptive term, a name of a particular economic system. Depending on who's talking it can be a pejorative (just like "Communist") but the word itself is not especially loaded. "Imperialist" is a lot stronger, and it's also not necessarily related to capitalism. A communist state (the USSR for example) can be just as imperialist as a capitalist one (the USA.) As for "fascist", hold your damn horses!! That's one of the strongest words you can use in political discourse and should not be used lightly. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, now THEY were fascists. They each murdered several million people, mainly because they dared to hold different political convictions than their rulers. They held complete dictatorial control over their countries, were extremely racist, forbade any sort of civil society, and generally were living nightmares. To directly compare Nagy Imre to those monsters is appalling. Sure, he may not have been Vaclav Havel or the Dalai Lama, but a FASCIST?? Good God, man! Get a grip on your vocabulary before someone gets hurt! K. Lastochka 22:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
There is also a serious question of whether the 1948-1955 government in Hungary was even repressive. What you people call "political persecution" in fact was directed towards phony opportunistic careerists within the Socialist Workers Party who were legally expelled rather than the workers and peasants who were the overwhelming majority of the country. According to Balasz Szallontai, from 1945 to 24 February 1951, 227 executions took place. Of the 227 persons in question, 146 had been sentenced for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Therefore, this left only 81 executions for truly political reasons between 1945-1951. In 1953, the number of prisoners convicted of political crimes stood at only 7,093. In contrast, right wing Greek thugs supported by the repressive right wing regime slaugtered 1500 civilians in 1946. Source: http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/1555.html
Even the now socialist government never called it a counter-revolution.
A regime that lets malicious corporations steal the people's resources cannot possibly be considered socialist. It is an enormous insult to genuine socialists to call the phony capitalist neoliberals in eastern Europe socialists. Thanks to this rapacious privitization of the people's resources, Hungary is now in a state of massive impoverishment.
the shrill ad-hominem down a notch and putting your objections into more succinct, organised form.
What are you talking about? I did not make an ad hominem attack towards any contributor here. Interpreting a political movement as fascist when support for Catholic Church, Russophobic hatred, and display of demagogic nationalist Hitlerist slogans speak for themselves is a genuine political interpretation. It is a fact that the repressive Catholic Church represented by that scoundrel Mindzenty was worshipped by the rebels. It is a fact that this movement lacked any aim for international proletarian solidarity which is the essence of revolution. This was a counter revolution as Hungary had already been liberated from fascism and feudalism.
China's Cultural Revolution is also, just like the CDU in the DDR, irrelevant to 56.
That would be like saying the nationalist uprising in 1956 Poland was irrelevant to 1956 Hungary. This is not true because the Polish nationalist rebellion touched off Hungary's fascist resurgence.
Not being communist and lacking "proletarian internationalism" is not evidence of fascism
This movement did not seek to bring about any meaningful social change. As shown by Hungary's constitution, workers had control of the factories and other means of production. For this reason alone this is disqualified as revolution. The fact that the rebels lacked the popular support of the Hungarian people means that this was a botched coup attempt rather than a popular uprising.
And how on Earth do you figure the West didnt want to see Hungary Neutral but the USSR did?!?
This is not my view. This was written by Charles Gati in "Failed Illusions". The key difference is that the West wanted to force Hungary in the reformed Axis which they call NATO while the USSR negotiated a neutral, nonaligned Hungary. USSR proposed the exact same for Germany in March 1952 but was soundly rejected by power hungry Adenauer and the NATO imperialists.
any move which displeases Moscow is freely branded with any of the tired perjoratives - "imperialist" "nazi" "captialist" etc. - these are used indiscriminately.
This is shallow and inappropriate characterization on your part. China's Cultural Revolution displeased Moscow but I have not branded this movement as imperialist, nazi, or capitalist.
"Capitalist" is just a descriptive term, a name of a particular economic system.
Nagy undoubtedly wanted to overthrow the socialist system in order to restore capitalism. He made contacts with the NATO imperialists for this reason.
"Imperialist" is a lot stronger, and it's also not necessarily related to capitalism.
I never used this term to describe Nagy. You are making shit up.
A communist state (the USSR for example) can be just as imperialist as a capitalist one (the USA.)
USSR did not exploit the resources of its allies in the third world including India, Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Vietnam, DPRK, and others in contrast to America whose corporations had de facto ownership of Latin America. In the 1960s and 1970s, the revisionist closet capitalists in Poland and Hungary traded with the West which brought their economies in crippling debt. Hungary by 1987 was in $16bn debt.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, now THEY were fascists.
Lumping Stalin and Mao is incendiary, fringe POV nonesense. Anti-racist and anti-capitalist Marxists like Stalin and Mao can't possibly be corporatist fascists.
They each murdered several million people, mainly because they dared to hold different political convictions than their rulers.
There is not any basis for such. Evidence from the archives shows that the excesses of the upheavels of the 1930s were primarily the work of local NKVD units and party officials trying to climb the political ladder by getting rid of their opponents. Yezhov also played a major role in this which is why he was punished. The likes of Zhdanov and Vyshinsky had frequently expressed concern towards the chaos of 1937-38. In all, 300 to 500 thousand mostly belonging to the party and burreaucracy were executed between 1937-38 in contrast to your fairy tale anecdotes about millions.
They held complete dictatorial control over their countries
That is a total lie. The events of 1930s USSR show that the country was far from monolithic politically. There existed numerous different perspectives within the Party leadership. The collectivization of the early 1930s is a clear example of tension between central and local government units. In China, this was also far from the case. The Cultural Revolution demonstrated sharp political sectarianism. Neither Stalin nor Mao had dictatorial control over their countries.
were extremely racist, forbade any sort of civil society, and generally were living nightmares.
The claim that either Stalin or Mao were racist is laughable nonesense considering equal rights for all national groups within USSR and China as well as firm proletarian internationalist outlook. According to opinion polls, most Russians particularly the elderly who lived during Stalin believe he was beneficial to the country and would rather have him back rather than live in today's capitalist nightmare. Stalin and Mao are marked as having been successful leaders who brought enormous benefits to their people while Nagy, Quisling, Dubcek, and others will go down as disgraced losers.
To directly compare Nagy Imre to those monsters is appalling.
Where did I compare Nagy to Stalin or Mao?
Sure, he may not have been Vaclav Havel or the Dalai Lama
Vaclav Havel has impoverished his country and brought it under the control of corporations while the Dalai Lama advocates slavery. — [ Unsigned comment added by 204.102.210.1 ( talk • contribs).]
Moving on then:
Lumping Stalin and Mao is incendiary, fringe POV nonesense. Anti-racist and anti-capitalist Marxists like Stalin and Mao can't possibly be corporatist fascists.
If I'm on the fringe, then it's a pretty big fringe! :) Stalin and Mao cannot be considered Marxists, because they twisted the philosophy of Marx beyond all recognition to serve their own political goals. Stalin was anti-racist? Tell that to the Jews, the Chechens, the Georgians, the Armenians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians, the Estonians, and especially the Ukrainians....
USSR did not exploit the resources of its allies in the third world including India, Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Vietnam, DPRK, and others in contrast to America whose corporations had de facto ownership of Latin America.
American imperialists propped up puppet governments, Soviet imperialists propped up puppet governments, Americans exploited natural resources, Soviets stifled free speech and the aspirations of captive people to decide for themselves what sort of government they wanted. Both pretty nasty, IMO.
This movement did not seek to bring about any meaningful social change. As shown by Hungary's constitution, workers had control of the factories and other means of production. For this reason alone this is disqualified as revolution.
The 56ers wanted to get rid of an oppressive, authoritarian government (yes, it WAS a nasty regime, even though by your calculations "only" 81 political prisoners were shot.) and make Hungary a free democratic society finally independent of any foreign-backed puppet regime. First the Ottomans, then the Hapsburgs, then the Soviets....they wanted to put an end to all that. That's some meaningful change they wanted. "As shown by Hungary's constitution..."....that doesn't mean much, the Soviet constitution looks pretty utopian on paper, never mind that it was only followed as far as was convenient for the Party bigwigs. Governments all over the world have repeatedly shown that it's pretty easy to ignore a constitution. "For this reason alone this is disqualified as revolution." Huh? I don't get that one.
This game is fun, in a really sick, twisted way. Care to keep playing? K. Lastochka 20:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Using the Party's own official declarations for a proof against the executions and deportations is like using Hitler's own books for Holocaust denial. In both cases there is written something like "everything is fine, nothing bad happens, everything bad is just the propaganda of our enemy, the <<insert random pejoratives here>>"
It seems my little "prophecy" about another automatic reply fulfilled itself :( We could keep playing a lot in this way - replying to (an focusing on) the small citation from someone and discarding his other comments. Should I try to clarify again for you to try to understand what we want to say before blindly copy-pasting hundreds of lines of propaganda? We are here to discuss things, not to play chatbots with automated posts from a fixed database. Sorry for the (maybe) harsh examples, I will try to remain more neutral. -- V. Szabolcs 22:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I have created a category for this important event. I am sure there are many more articles that should be added, so please feel free to do so. Thanks, Wachholder0 18:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
These Soviet actions alienated many Western Marxists, yet strengthened Soviet control over Central Europe, cultivating the perception that communism was both irreversible and monolithic.
This is baseless. The event that alienated western Marxists was the suppression of the 1968 counter-revolution in Prague. Evidence shows that the communist parties in Italy, for example, increased its number of votes between 1953-58:
1953: 6,121,551 votes for Italian communists
1958: 6,704,763 for Italian communists
Since the end of WW2, the only time that the PCI lost seats in an election was after the turmoil (well-cited in the footnotes to that section of the article) in the PCI after 1956. The other Socialist parties, who denounced the Soviet invasion, all gained seats at the expense of the PCI. The data you provide is out of context to the results of the election. Ryanjo 03:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Hear hear! When people post under IP accounts, it makes it look like they are trying to hide something, or they know, deep down, that the things they are saying are bogus. If you would like to have any chance of being taken seriously, please SIGN IN AND SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.
(By the way, Italy is usually a strange case. If you're trying to make a sweeping generalization about support for Communist parties in Europe, give us more than one country of examples please!?) K. Lastochka 05:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted an large number of edits by unregistered Users 69.110.136.113 & 68.126.61.121, since there were several problems with these edits:
Edits to FA articles should be done with care and after review by other contributing editors, especially if substantial changes to such previously reviewed text is anticipated. That is the nature of discussions on this section. Ryanjo 02:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Agree again. Sometimes I think IP users should be blocked, period--I'm sure it would seriously cut down on stupid vandalism. :) But I don't want to get into a big debate on wiki policy...so just let the record show that I also support a partial protection on this article. K. Lastochka 05:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The format of these references is not congruent with the style of reference already used in the article. Edits to FA articles should be done with care and after review by other contributing editors, especially if substantial changes to such previously reviewed text is anticipated. That is the nature of discussions on this section. Ryanjo 02:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree 100% with Ryanjo and confirm that the issue of whether or not the event can be called a "Revolution" has been decided in the affirmative at least three separate times during the FA(C) and that any change should be summarily reverted. Numbering the revolutionaries at 15,000 is also counter to the historical record, also as referenced in the UN report which stated that soviet forces found it impossible to differentiate between civilian and military targets in Budapest. The number is accurately indeterminable, as Ryanjo points out and any change from this should also be reverted back to the FAC-version description of "unknown". Moreover, returnees are no where near the one-third claimed by the government unless they are engaging in rhetorical sleight of hand (i.e. counting visits) - I would also add the ref - the UN report chapter II.N page 31 point xii) only a small fraction of the 190,000 which fled as refugees have accepted the Government's invitation to return. Anything else should also be reverted. Finally, this article has seen more than its share of vandalism (especially on 23 October when it was TFA) and about 99% of it was from IP users. If any interested admin were to consider a partial protection (against unregistered users) I would certainly encourage it as this will almost certianly help preserve a good FA and allow the vigilant, perhaps overprotective editors more opportunity to work on other wiki areas.
The change to the number of Revolutionaries (from unknown to 15,000, acc to Gati's book) is not correctly referenced. On page 156 of Gati's book, footnote # 22 refers to a publication in Hungarian and states: "Gyurko... warned that it was impossible to know precisely how many took actively part in the revolt." Therefore, unknown is the correct estimate. If there is a direct information which supports Gati's estimate of 15,000, it is not referenced.
First, you are incorrect in the claim that it is not correctly referenced. It was distinctly referenced that the source was from Charles Gati's latest work. Charles Gati is a more than qualified scholar who is a reliable source on this issue. While there was a critical approach to the number of active combattants, this is done in most cases. Most qualified scholars treat newly founded facts with a degree of criticism. Nevertheless, Gati's estimation that 15,000 directly fought is perfectly reliable. Similarly, it is impossible to know the exact number of people killed in the Russian Civil War, but most scholars have estimated it to be in the range of 7-10 million. The point is that it is impossible to know for certain the exact number of people died. For example, you'd never see something like "2,523,732 died in this and that war."
The issue of calling it a revolution has been discussed exhaustively in the discussions above and during FA proposal and the majority of editors have decided it will be called the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Unless a preponderance of opinion sees the need for change, it should remain as titled.
This does not change the fact that most sources including Gati's latest work refer to the event as a revolt. Gati himself was from a petit-bourgeois family employed as a journalist in 1956. He was one of the 200,000 or so who betrayed the country. A work by an ardent anti-communist like Gati should be the paradigm. Plus, you have yet to respond to the fact that most scholarly sources on Proquest database have more search results of "1956 Hungarian Revolt" than "1956 Hungarian Revolution". There was not a revolution because this movement had the support of the Catholic Church, Radio Free Europe, and was fiercely Russophobic. More importantly, this movement did not bring about any fundamental changes that were not already brought about in 1948-1953.
There is a distinct tone of POV: "fled as emigrants", is not supported by a careful reading of the Time article referenced[10]: "today the government claims that more than one-third of 1956's 200,000 refugees have come back home". There is no evidence that this happened or not.
What the fuck are you talking no evidence? This was reported by the Hungarian government. The reference to the obsolete, outdated UN report is not an appropriate source as it was disseminated in 1957 whereas the "Time" article was from the 1960s.
If anything, calling someone a refugee for simply leaving one's country is POV. The reverse POV is to call them defector. The neutral POV is to call them emigrant. People who flee the economic catastrophe of eastern Europe today are not referred to as "refugee". Yet those who fled an economically prosperous Eastern Europe pre-1989 are referred to as "refugee". These people were not fleeing from any devastating war or humanitarian crisis. Like Gati, they were simply bourgeois parasites.
Point 2: We're calling it "Revolution", we've been over this before, deal with it. Point 3: "Fled as emigrants" sounds silly. "Fled" goes with "Refugee", "emigrant" would work better with something like "left". Point 4: Mr. Gati is not a parasite.
That is all I have to say to you. K. Lastochka 17:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"An economically prosperous Eastern Europe pre-1989"...
"There was not collective farming ever in the People's Republic of Hungary."
More Nonsense and Lies, anyone?
JP, your cause is lost. We Hungarians actually know, you know – it's only a matter of time to find and cite the appropriate sources. It's not like you can beat us into letting you whitewash the oppressors by citing various copies of the same side of the story over and over. So just stop wasting everyone's time. If you come back with this bullshit after the page is unprotected, I for one will revert it on sight anyway. (And that's already spending more time on it than it deserves.) K issL 14:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Due to recent vandalism, maybe it should be semiprotected. Can I protect it? NCurs e work 18:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I just put us up as a request for semi-protection, but apparently only an admin can actually do the protecting. That's why I asked you. :) K. Lastochka 19:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen, the recent edits may be annoying, but they are not numerous enough to warrant protection of the page.-- Paul 19:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, it was just a suggestion... :) K. Lastochka 20:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there any way to block him (her??) if he keeps using different IPs? K. Lastochka 03:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I just noticed Mieciu K's request on the "To Do" list, he asks that we write a paragraph about the unrest in BP last month on the 50th anniversary. Mieciu, thanks for your suggestion but this particular article is not the place to write about last month's events. Instead I would like to suggest to my various colleagues and co-editors that we write a "sister article" about the repercussions of 56 that continue to this day. We can talk in more detail about its influence on the Prague Spring, how and why it's often considered the "first nail in the coffin of Soviet communism", the various ways in which people have (rightly and wrongly) invoked the memory of the events to describe political situations in their own time and place, and of course the mess last month. (And then we can put it in that template we've been messing with!) What do you say, boys and girls? :) K. Lastochka 20:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I was hoping for us to maybe start on something about the influence of 56 from the day it all started up through the rest of the cold war and to today...may be a bit ambitious I know... K. Lastochka 04:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Energy maybe, but time? :) I should spend less time on wiki and more time studying. :) I will take a shot at it in next few days though--I feel like I'm up to a little interpretive history! K. Lastochka 04:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed there are some spoken articles on the Wikipedia. Does anyone have interest in at least looking into recording this one? (I would assume this would be a collaboration) Im sure it would require another round of polishing the text, and we'd have to have a think about how to ensure high recording quality. (any trained voices out there?) Look at Samantha Smith as an example - also FA, also spoken article. István 15:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The videos that Istvan linked to are a great addition to the article! The very young age of most of the demonstrators was something I hadn't realized--pictures worth a thousand words, etc. Also, we have several "red wikilinks" now, most prominently "For Freedom and Truth". What happened? Should we delete or link somewhere else? (This article just keeps getting better every time I take another look.) Ryanjo 01:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, those films are superb. If anyone can figure out a way to link to any specific one (rather than to the whole page), they could be used as references (if a webpage, why not a video?) I was struck too by the mood of the crowd, it really comes across very clearly, even the weather; the videos certainly put the story into rich context. As for the Bibó page, I am working on a translation from source (public domain) material, as the previous one (translated by anon) was rejected for copyright status. There was a brief but spirited bruhaha about it, but finally we had to pull it down, cool our jets and we will put it up again shortly, perhaps within a week. Please bear with me on that one - The Bibó stuff really belongs and is an important part of the story. István 01:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow, those films are great! I only watched a few but they made quite an impression. Kösz, István! :-)
Ryanjo, I totally agree. Today was the first time in a while I looked at the article and I was left dumbfounded, scratching my head in bewilderment and thinking "how on Earth did we manage to write something this good??" The next step (besides For Freedom and Truth) is to finally pull together that template Biruitorul suggested. I already started the Cultural Representations bit, am about to throw together something from Biru's notes on events outside BP, then if I have lots of spare time maybe something about the political repercussions. (Somebody put the 2006 anti-Gyurcsi protests in the template--honestly don't think that quite belongs!) K. Lástocska 02:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Likewise. :) This project was a lot of fun and very meaningful for me, despite the occasional squabbles and near-catastrophes (like when our pics almost got yanked!), and I can hardly think of a better group of people I would have wanted to work with. Now that WikiProject Hungarian Culture is all but created, I am eagerly looking forward to more collaborations like this one in the future. Dear friends and colleagues, a very very happy new year to every one of you! K. Lástocska 02:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Guys/Gal, did you see this? [16]
Wow....what a gold mine!! Do I sense that this article is about to get even longer, better and more thoroughly-referenced? ;-) K. Lástocska 03:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
and for the record, another (Gati used this for his book) here [17] Tells how the CIA has such poor intelligence at the time. Too bad they're still all so deeply redacted... István 04:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
They just added some weekly intelligence briefings to this page. They are a better read and are less redacted, but not quite so in-the-trenches as the dailies. István 05:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
not as momentous as the discovery of the video archive and the CIA documents, but have you guys seen this? We're famous! :) [18] K. Lásztocska 23:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[19] [20] [21] -- Paul 05:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Any of you good on the wikisource? Ive translated the Bibó document here but cant quite figure out how to do all the copyright verification stuff on wikisource, nor prepare that header at the top. Its greek to me, and I certainly dont want to set off another mob-bruhaha over copyright status. If any of you are good on wikisource then please be my guest and create the article and repair the red links on this page. Thanks István 06:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted an edit by User:Oleanna1104:
I have a number of objections:
Ryanjo 00:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't help but notice that our revolutionaries-atop-Stalin's-boots picture just got yanked from the commons. Apparently there was a misunderstanding--it is the WEBSITE of the American Hungarian Federation which is copyrighted, not the images they offered in their 1956 gallery. Indeed, this very question came up back in October and after some communication with people from the AHF we were assured that all the photos we uploaded are in fact public domain and we have full permission to use them. K. Lásztocska 00:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have rearranged the Further reading section into two columns (something István had suggested some time ago). Could everyone take a look and comment? Ryanjo 15:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
{{portal|Cold War}}
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I like it--looks pretty classy and doesn't take up as much space on the page. K. Lásztocska 15:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This article really helped me with a project i had to do on the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. With the information from this article and other sources, i will most likely get a 100 on this grade in my World History AP class. User:Chris gonzalez March 2007
Hey, that's great! Glad we could help! :) K. Lásztocska 23:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that someone added a sentence on the 2006 Hungarian film Szabadság, szerelem (Children of Glory), about the 1956 Olympic water polo match between Hungary & Russia, right after the Revolution was crushed. The same paragraph also includes a reference to the film Freedom's Fury, on the same subject. I wonder whether it would be better to start a new section under Published accounts in "External links" for these films (and hopefully others of a wider scope on the 1956 events):
Comments? Ryanjo 04:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
We've already got a weird little split-off article, Cultural representations of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 (for a template that never got finished) I think they're in there. K. Lásztocska 13:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Władysław Gomułka article states: A student demonstration in Budapest in support of Gomułka, asking for similar reforms in Hungary, soon sparked the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Would anybody have a reference for that? In related news, I have created articles on Polish '56 revolution(s): Poznań 1956 protests and Gomułka's thaw.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 04:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
One more Poland - related fact should be mentioned here: that the success of Polish October ows much to the Soviet preoccupation with more far going events in Hungary ( ref, [23]).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
The commons description of this page is "25 october 1956. Massacre at the Parliament: 200 dead, several hundreds injured." In this article, is is used much later, rather than near the events of Oct. 25.
Do we know for sure when this photo was taken? www.hungary1956.com doesn't state it, as far as i could see. We also don't have a source for the number of deaths/injuries at the parliament. - TheMightyQuill 18:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The article says: "Although it was widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet intervention, minutes of the October 31 meeting of the Presidium record that the decision to intervene militarily was taken one day before Hungary declared its neutrality and withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact." The reference is this. It looks like the editor writing this drew his own conclusions, that is it's original research? According to this text, on October 31 "Nagy announces that the Hungarian government is prepared to leave the Warsaw Pact," that is it's the same day as the meeting. On November 1 Nagy "announces Hungary's withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact, proclaims Hungarian neutrality, and asks the United Nations to put the Hungarian question on its agenda." Vints 18:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
the source doesnt say explicitly...that Hungary leaving the Warsaw Pact was not a factor -- That isn't fair, someone could therefore say (for example) that the fact it rained in Moscow that day could have been a factor -- because it wasn't stated that it was not a factor.
The BBC article has the order of events wrong, from the source documents we have available. The BBC writer cites no references for his contention that Nagy announced withdrawal from the Pact before the Presidium made its decision. In fact, as Paul mentions, the UN report (a second source that confirms the Wikipedia article's timeline) states that Soviet units were mobilizing to enter Hungary for several days before the November 1st Nagy cabinet meeting. The BBC's quote from Sir Rodric Braithwaite, that "Had Imre Nagy been loyal to the Warsaw Pact, the Russians might not have intervened" is also unsupported by the source documents (can a politician understand history?).
Swedish Wikipedia may have merely carried over the earlier revision of this article, which incorrectly had the much repeated leave Pact..Soviets invade timeline. This was changed in this article between September & November 2006, when over 50 editors were involved in vetting this article for FA status. However, if Swedish Wikipedia has an undiscovered reference that supports the leave Pact..Soviets invade argument, lets examine it. Ryanjo 19:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The actual attack took place three days later on November 4th. Without knowledge of the October 31 minutes, it is logical to assume that the Nov. 1st cabinet meeting actions caused the Nov. 4th attack. With knowledge of the minutes, it is a lot harder to make that case.-- Paul 18:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)On 1 November, Imre Nagy received reports that Soviet forces had entered Hungary from the east and were moving towards Budapest.[99] Nagy sought and received assurances from Soviet ambassador Yuri Andropov that the Soviet Union would not invade, although Andropov knew otherwise. The Cabinet, with János Kádár in agreement, declared Hungary's neutrality, withdrew from the Warsaw Pact, and requested assistance from the diplomatic corps in Budapest and the UN Secretary-General to defend Hungary's neutrality.[100]
Unless someone finds a primary source that would somehow support the allegation that, at the point of deciding to intervene, the Presidium had heard that Hungary planned to leave the Warsaw Pact and this influenced the decision, the statement is in no way dubious (indeed, it is the opposite that would be both dubious and OR). This has not happened so far – all sources claiming this are based on speculations, not exhaustive analysis of primary sources. I went ahead and removed the tag. K issL 15:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of re-opening the" what caused the intervention?" question again, I reorganized several of the statements in this section, which i believe were not longer in the correct order. If I have got it wrong, please re-edit. Regards,
Ryanjo (
talk) 01:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor claims it wasn't banned and thus the Hungarian olympic delegation didn't have to insist on its use. True or False? Here's a place to start, anyone read Hungarian? [ Hungarian Wikipedia Magyar himnusz].-- Paul 18:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
On the Hungarian page there's nothing about it. But I don't think that there would be any change in the article. It sounds so nice, doesn't it? But it is the least important on this page in terms of factual inaccuracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I wrote it. You just need to see any newsreel from the 1950s about any major sporting event and you can see that the national anthem (Himnusz) is played. In 1952 in the Helsinki Olympic Games 16 times. All the events in Hungary started with this music (including openign of the school year). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.75.230 ( talk) 18:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
As a matter of fact it was compulsory in music classes in the elementary school... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Until the revolution, the Hungarian Anthem was not banned, it was simply not played (for fear or servilism). Neither in shool, nor elsewhere. This sentence All the events in Hungary started with this music (including openign of the school year) is not true. The only way to listen to it was during the Sunday mass in churches. -- Hunadam 16:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I learnt it in the school choir (Budapest X. district) and sang it at the school opening day (beginning of September) in 1952 (having said that the other two songs were the Appeal (Szózat) and the International (there were variations, but these three featured). It is, of course, possible that there were differences between Budapest and the country or even between different Budapest districts. But these are about experiences. However, the point remains that the sportmen and women did not have to protest for having the Anthem played at the Olympic games, one simply has to look at newsreels of sporting events in which Hungary won, you will see that the Anthem is played. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The last paragraph in this section is extremely confused and inaccurate.
The hyper-inflation took place in 1946, well before the communist takeover, thus it is incomprehensible how the Rákosi clique can be made responsible for this. If anything, experts of the communists and the social-democrats worked out the way in which the new currency could be introduced (the propaganda slogan was that Rákosi was the father of the forint and Szakasits its mother), and it certainly created the image of economic expertise. Moreover, the sentence about the hyper-inflation follows the sentence on post-war economic recovery, increasing the confusion.
The paragraph goes on and on about the war reparations, without mentioning that in the war 40% of the national assets were destroyed (of which infrastructure (no bridge survived over the River Tisza and the Danube), vehicles, trains, railways (40% of the total rails), animals (about half of it), industrial raw materials were the most important).
By 1949, industrial production reached the output of 1938 (more or less). The disposable income was necessarily lower than the pre-war level as additional resources were needed for investment, rebuilding and international obligations. The big drop in disposable income in 1951-1952 was a result of the soaring military expenditure as a response to the Korean War.
Here are the figures for economic growth (it uses national income, which is GDP less depreciation and the "non-productive" sectors) - 1950=100
1951: 116
1952: 114
1953: 128
1954: 122
1955: 132
1956: 117
(Source: I. Pető and S. Szakács (1985): A hazai gazdaság négy évtizedének története 1945-1985. 1. Az újjáépítés és a tervutasításos irányítás időszaka, KJK: Budapest, p. 214)
Well, it was the industrial production (especially heavy industries) that led this - the common expression for 1950-1953 in the Hungarian economic history is "the period of forced industrialisation". The current statement in the article is just ridiculous (there was shortage of labour in industry, not unemployment!), not to mention that the reference is a 1953 book...
However, real income of the population did fall between 1951-1953, though nowhere close to the suggestion in the article (the figures below are for employees):
1949=100
1950: 102.8
1951: 97.8
1952: 87.5
1953: 91.0
1954: 115.0
1955: 121.8
1956: 129.3
(Source: ibid, p. 217)
Food consumption was more or less the same between 1950-1954 and 1934-1938 with the exception of sugar that was twice as high in 1950-1954 than in the pre-war period (source: ibid., p. 231. Nevertheless, there were shortages and the rationing was reintroduced in 1951 (abolished, in my view too early, in 1949).
Well, it is rather different picture than the one in the article. But at least it is not confused and fairly accurate (the book referenced here is fairly reliable). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 10:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Ryanjo 15:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I wasn't clear. In the text the war reparations are mentioned as a decisive factor (apart from the economic mismanagement). While they were important (but less so from 1950), the task of rebuilding the infrastructure, re-breeding the animal stock (after all, cattle has a pretty long breeding period), etc. were more important. The article's text actually does not mention the destruction by WWII. For many people in the West, the destruction (and the scale of losses of life) in the East is incomprehesible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 15:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The comparison is with 1938 in the article (which is the first year of the Győr programme anyway). The main reason is the soaring military expenditure and the numerous heavy industry investment started at the same time (without proper plans - Sztálinváros [Dunaújváros] was built like this) that consumed the resources. Mismanagement played a significant role, there cannot be any doubt. However, the figures in the article are just plain wrong. Industrial production was significantly higher in the 1950s than in 1938 or 1949. The drop in output happens in Nagy's 1953 economic reorientation programme that aimed at reducing the expenditure in heavy industries by redirecting resources to light industries and stopping several large projects to ease political tensions. If one excludes the mismanagement cost, Hungarian industry was more productive than in the pre-war period because of the consolidation of the small and medium-sized companies.
Percentages are also interesting things. When it's said that by 1949 industrial production reached the 1938 level, it covers up the fact that light industries were extremely underdeveloped in Hungary. Just for the measure: Production of socks was 3-4 pairs per person in 1938... Thus even a 100% increase in this would have have yielded rather little. In both the 3-year and the first 5-year plan light industries received less resources (or resources were even taken away). This historic disadvantage couldn't be made up without either giving up the heavy industry or agriculture or both. Hence the tendency of the Hungarian economy to be dependent on foreign loans, resources for the last 150 years or so.
The comparison with Germany is not really appropriate as West Germany would take over not only the East in terms of economic growth and living standards, but all the Western Allies as well (with the exception of the US) by the mid-1950s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 17:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
It reads much better and much more accurate (especially with the added reference of the forced savings ("Békekölcsön"), which is really a key issue as it really distorts most of the national statistics). The last sentence of the paragraph is really redundant as it repeats what's said before, with the exception of the reference to the discontent as a result of economic problems (the remark about the price difference for producers and consumers is not explained anywhere anyway, thus perhaps it is incomprehesible for the unitiated reader: it meant that the peasantry received less money for the surrendered grain than for which they bought it back.). Thus, in my view, it is sufficient to say: "all these fuelled discontent as foreign debt grew and the population experienced shortages" (with the reference). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 23:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Good to see the editorial team is still on the job. I agree with K. Lastochka, who relocated the contributions by Redstar1987:
Also, the sentence added about atrocities was similar to some previously in the article. Besides being poorly phrased, it's unreferenced.
It always helps if contributors to a FA article discuss the edits here first... Ryanjo 18:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the incident on Köztársaság Square (Republic Square) October 30 (see eg [28]) should be mentioned. According to Victor Sebestyen's book this was one factor to why the Soviets decided to intervene a second time. Vints ( talk) 07:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC) I updated the to-do list. Vints ( talk) 07:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi all ! Can we add this to the article ? - [29]. The site is very nicely done and it is in 8 languages ! Greetings.
-- Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] ( talk) 04:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
When I click on the link you provided, it requires a login and password. According to Wikipedia guidelines "sites that require registration or a paid subscription should be avoided". Ryanjo ( talk) 15:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Yesterday everything was ok, I don't know what happened... No password were needed, I'm sure about that.
-- Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] ( talk) 21:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It does not ask for any password from me either. -- V. Szabolcs ( talk) 19:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Works for me too (proxy IP in Hungary). Ryanjo, I suspect that your ISP may be using the wrong DNS record. This is what I see; do you see anything similar? K issL 10:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for my assumption that all couldn't link to the page. I still get the "sign on" at http://www.1956.pl/main,8.html. I have sent a query to my ISP (bellsouth.net). Ryanjo ( talk) 01:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)