This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The Deportation to the Soviet Union section informs only about Germans working in the SU. Many Germans were killed or imprisoned. Xx236 ( talk) 12:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Example: Wilm Hosenfeld. Xx236 ( talk) 07:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "Of around 12.4 million Germans residing within the lands of post-war Poland in 1944, 3.6 million were expelled, one million were certified as Poles, 300,000 remained in Poland as a German minority, and up to 1.1 million are unaccounted for and presumed to be dead. [70]" This adds up to 6 million Germans. What happened to the other 6.4 million? Junes ( talk) 11:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The section presents only POV of some Germans and quotes a specific German source. Xx236 ( talk) 07:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The section does not inform about persecutions of Nazis and alleged Nazis by Soviet authorities. Prisoners were deported to the SU, tried and deported to camps or executed. Xx236 ( talk) 07:56, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Lower Silesia also became a Polish war aim, as well as the Baltic coast west of Stettin as far as Rostock and occupation of the Kiel Canal. Who and when defined such war aim? Xx236 ( talk) 09:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Removed, since source does not claim Baltic coast and Rostock was Polish war aim. Rather, it says "The Poles went so far to demand OCCUPATION RIGHTS amongst Baltic coast... and sought to participate in occupation of the Kiel canal". Szopen ( talk) 12:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Czech opinion about NN's book [2]. Xx236 ( talk) 13:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Governments, including Polish government in exile, make various demands, more or less serious. I have no problem with noting that Polish government in exile made certain demands (this probably should be discussed more in its own article), but we should not confuse political demands with "war aims" (one could misread this as "Poland started the war aiming for occupation of Eastern Germany" or something like that).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
"But as the war progressed, Polish ambitions grew. The almost completely German city of Stettin (Szczecin) and the adjacent islands were claimed as "the key to Central Europe". The Poles went so far to demand occupation rights along the Baltic as far as Rostock-Warnemünde and Rügen and sought to participate in the occupation of the Kiel canal. Lower Silesia, inhabited by nearly three million Germans, also eventually became a central focus of Polish war aims."
Does Naimark give any sources for his opinions nor only about Szczecin, but also about Lower Silesia, since I have never heard of such Polish war aims while I know a bit about that part of history.
In all the cultures I have ever encountered, "dear" in an exchange betweeen otherwise unacquainted people is a sign of condescension, not politeness.
Szczecin is a "key to Central Europe", because it controls Odra river. Sudeten and Danzig were main reasons of WWII, so noone would be happy with new Danzig - Szczecin. Xx236 ( talk) 09:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
No matter what is Naimark credibility, the sentence "Rostock was Polish war aim" is unclear, though one could argue not actually false. According to the Naimark, Polish "war aims" included "occupation rights" for Rostock etc. Since French, British and Americans left from their occupation zones, I see no reason why Poles wouldn't leave the occupational zone. However, initial (now corrected) sentence in article may suggest that the war aim for Poland was joining Rostock to Poland - which is not supported even by Naimark. The recent changes by Skapperod at least avoided this ambiguity. I would still want to be this clarified more, but because I don't know how, I won't edit the sentence. If I may suggest something, I havein my library several books about Polish-German relations during the war, which present the evolution of the Polish plans for western Polish borders. I can search there. Until now, I think Skapperod's version may stay, until someone proves Naimark is not credible. If Naimark wrote "the Poles", he probably meant some official people - and Naimark being historian probably based his opinion on some reliable source (I hope). The sentence in book is referenced, but free preview does not allow me to see this reference. Maybe this reference would solve the issue. Does anyone have access to the whole book? Szopen ( talk) 09:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Polish Foreign Minister Zaleski included the deportation of Germans from prewar Poland and East Prussia as a major Polish war aim. 94, page 123 - what does it mean? Can a ministry define any war aim? I doubt very much. Reference 94 isn't available for me. Xx236 ( talk) 11:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I have here "Walka dyplomatyczna o miejsce Polski w Europie 1939-1945" by Włodzimierz T. Kowalski, wydanie szóste (uzupełniona), Książka i Wiedza 1985. ISBN 83-05-11212-8.
Some quotes which you may find interesting. Page 130-131: "Chronologically first document of government-in-exile which precisely formulated those aims was >>Biuletyn Informacyjny MSZ nr 1<< from 28 November 1939. :" ...(Poland should get safe borders, A.D ) ... "based on strategical borders which could be defended, which demands amongst others the condition of giving to us East Prussia". Page 132: Zaleski about German minority (1940, 19 February): "The question of population of German ancestry became special problem, which is outside the problem of minorities, and inseparably is tied to German-Polish relationship. Current suffering of Polish population create in this case special right for Polish nation, which MAY DEMAND (stress mine, A.D.) that their executioners should leave Polish territory, after defeat of the Reich, ..." "The above document points that in Polish emigree circles quite early was discussed ("rozważano" forgot how to say that in English AD) - or rather, taken into the account as one of many alternative - case of resettlng of German population from nw borders of Poland. Such discussion however, as one may conclude, have not resulted in creating any precise directives and giving this matter for broader forum as international forum. There is no basis therefore, for searching a link between those discussion and later decision made by Greater powers..."
page 243-245: the memo "The western boundaries of Poland" given by Sikorski to Sumner Welles, Decmber 4th, 1942. Text was never published in whole. The memo stipulated the need of incorporation into Poland Eastern Prussia, Opole and Pomerania, and TEMPORARY OCCUPATION of other German territories. "According to the concept of Sikorski, the territories which should be given the statute of >>strict occupation<< and which should be finally divided in peace conference, were on west from prewar Polish-German border, to the line >> along left bank of Nysa Łużycka and left bank of Oder, including Stettin, the island in estuary and including island of Rugen. The occupational state will be Poland, and in the southern region, Poland together with Czechoslovakia<<. .... Sikorski government however excluded the possibility of pusing the borders to the Nysa and Oder. The 4th point of mentioned document (not the memo, but Polish document from 7 October) stated: >> Extremely dangerous is gaving unrealistic ("fantastycznych", AD) territorial claims , for example pushing to Bobr or Nysa Łużycka and INCLUDING WHOLE LOWER SILESIA, with population which is fanatically anti-Polish, because Germans in Poland would count then 9 millions and NECESSARY REMOVALS WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE, and one should not be illusioned about possibility of >>reslavisation<< ... Making such territorial claims discredits Poles in the eyes of anglosaxon opinion, making Poles the nation of unstoppable greed, which in fatal way damages our real aspiration in the west"
And so on.. later also never in the book it'smentioned that government-in-exile wanted whole Lower Silesia. Only Opole, Pomorze, Eastern Prussia. And strict TEMPORARY occupation of some more territories. And Zaleski memo does notinclude expulsion as war aim, but only as one of alternatives, never precised, and never it seems actually gave to the western allies. Szopen ( talk) 09:16, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for quoting your sources in so much detail. Now what are we going to make of it? The article as it is now does not mention expulsion of Germans from the western territories as a war aim (that however in one case is stated and sourced for East Prussia and pre-war Poland), but "only" occupation. It also clearly states that about what territories exactly should be occupied in the West there were different opinions at different times. Maybe you point out what part exactly you see in conflict with the sources cited above?
I think it is important to have this short paragraph about Polish territorial interests because the occupied territory in 1945 turned out to become the expulsion's site and was integrated into the new Polish state right from the start of Polish occupation. As it is stated in the article, expulsions even began at the most western frontier of the occupied territory (that turned out to be the Oder-Neisse line). That however does not imply that plans for expulsion/integration of the occupied territories existed already in 1940. It just turned out to make no difference in 1945. I think this can be drawn clearly from the article's current state. (I interpreted your main concern being that with the early 40s' demands occupied is not equal with integrated and/or planned expulsions from, I hope that is correct.) Regards Skäpperöd ( talk) 11:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The terminology of the regions is indeed a little tricky. Śląsk Opolski is not Lower Silesia, but the western part of Upper Silesia (former Regierungsbezirk Oppeln of the Province of Upper Silesia) that has not become Polish during the interbellum (as opposed to Polish Upper Silesia, the Kattowitz region). Lower Silesia means the Breslau area. With "Pomerania", there is also some confusion, as Polish Pomorze usually referred to Pomerelia (Danzig region), while the Stettin region is "Western Pomerania" in Polish; from the German perspective, the region with Stettin and Kolberg is Pommern (Pomerania), while the Danzig region (Polish Pomorze) is Pomerellen.
With the "war aims": I am not sure if the above sources refer to the same memos/speeches/whatever of Sikorski and/or Zaleski as the sources cited in the article. If they do, we have two different secondary/tertiary source interpretations of the same primary source, and those must be stated and attributed as different POVs. If they don't, and that's what I think right now, they should either be added or in some other way be integrated (e.g. as additional references to specific parts of the sentences, maybe slightly reformulated without interfering with the initial refs). I would not object to your proposal of changing "war aims" to "considered by g-in-e" (to me, that is the same just differently formulated), yet it must be clearly stated that these considerations in 1940 were about the territory of pre-war PL with "minor" annexations such as East Prussia, as it is stated now. The "plan" to expel every German east of the O-N-line arose to my knowledge only later, when it was clear that Stalin would not let go his annexations east of the C-line, and Polish as well as Soviet officials had learned toward the end of the war that the Western allies would not intervene to anything they were about to do in territory controlled by them. For the reasons above, I would object changing Lower to Opole Silesia. Skäpperöd ( talk) 15:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
WT Kowalski was a biased Communist and his books were censored, so I would check any letter in it. Xx236 ( talk) 15:36, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Polish military means both Soviet controlled Polish military and Polish military in the West. Xx236 ( talk) 11:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
The article is written too much like emotional essay rather then encyclopedic article. Also a lot of needed information was removed-for example the fact that territories in which the population transfer was made by the Allies were not seen as really Germany but Germanised Slavic and Baltic territories and this was thus seen as de-Germanisation. Currently its hard not to see that the article has very pro-German view on things and uses overwhelmingly authors noted for pro-German bias.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Tony Judt writes most of the people in population transfer were in fact women and late-adult men. However as I know that several polls and surveys were done regarding various things associated with German Nazism by the Allies-was there any survey done regarding the percentage of Nazi members within the number of Germans in population transfer ? It is certainly a scholary issue to consider.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
"German settlement in the former eastern territories of Germany " Actually this sentence is about settlement in Piast Poland, Bohemia, Austria that later became part of Germany, it now reads as they always settled in Germany. This is innacurate and should be corrected in such way that will not confuse the reader.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
It concerned Poles as well. And in places like Silesia German population increased actually in that period.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Writes several times that the main reason from the Polish side for population transfer were atrocities carried out by Volksdeutsche in 1939 and later. This isn't represented in the current form of the article. Seems relevant as this is a major work regarding the subject. Additional Detlef writes that another reason, but of secondary importance was the strategic border that allowed better defence against German invasion-the 1939 border was seen as reason for rapid defeat of Poland. Third-Brandes writes that the to understand the situation one needs to see not only Nazi Germany but overall German and Prussian treatment of Poles, Czechs throughout earlier centuries that culminated in those events. This is barely represented in the current articles. -- Molobo ( talk) 22:01, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
A bot at Bundesarchiv has been uploading images to the Commons. Here's one that could be used in this article. There are many more. Binksternet ( talk) 19:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article relies in 70% on German sources, 25% on English ones and only in 5% on Polish ones. This likely means it is heavily biased towards German POV.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Section "Allied decisions: Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam conferences" discusses the conferences and the British policy, but not the policy of USA and USSR. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:47, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I've moved this section to talk: it was poorly referenced, tagged for months as NPOV, and likely represents UNDUE weight (or sneakly advertising) of the POV of Niels Redecker (Google search doesn't return any meaningful hits that could assert his reliability).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Niels Redecker argues that Poland's legal environment has changed since 1990 and describes opportunities that expellees and their descendants may pursue. He notes, for example, that despite a widespread belief that land ownership by foreigners is still effectively banned in Poland, there are in fact no longer major obstacles to the acquisition of real estate by non-citizens. So expellees and their descendants can already return to their former homeland in Poland if they so wished and have the necessary amount of money.
Redecker also expresses optimism about pursuing property restitution claims in Polish courts. Although the Polish courts continue to uphold the validity of the laws governing expropriation, they have shown a willingness to overturn individual expropriations that did not fully conform to the intent and the provisions of those laws. One group of cases that would certainly seem to fall into this category involves German Jewish claimants whose property had been confiscated by the Nazi regime in the 1930s and then nationalized by Poland after the war. While judgments on these cases have so far been mixed, Redecker argues that such claims are likely to make headway, especially in the context of Poland's entry into the European Union. This could, he suggests, serve as a wedge opening up the way for broader challenges to the expulsion laws and successful restitution claims by non-Jews. Redecker is careful to note that because German expellees, aware that full restitution or compensation from the Polish state is unrealistic, would "be satisfied with symbolic compensation".
Ref: von Redecker, Niels. Die polnischen Vertreibungsdekrete und die offenen Vermögensfragen zwischen Deutschland und Polen. Studien des Instituts für Ostrecht München. Frankfurt a. M.: Peter Lang, 2003. 129 pp. ISBN 9783631506240. (p. 55).
No mention of milions of German colonists as part of the Germans who left Poland. Why ?-- Gwinndeith ( talk) 18:09, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Twice a reference is used where all that is cited is, "Overy, ibid". What does that mean? I'm assuming Overy is refering to Richard Overy and ibid of course means: Ibid (Latin, short for ibidem, "the same place") is the term used to provide an endnote or footnote citation or reference for a source that was cited in the preceding endnote or footnote. But the same as what reference? Which of Overy books is the information from? -- Esemono ( talk) 10:58, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
<ref name="Overy">{{cite book | last = Richard Overy| authorlink = Richard Overy| title = The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich|edition= July 1, 1997|pages= 144| publisher = Penguin (Non-Classics) | isbn= 0140513302}}</ref>
'The flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland was the largest of a series of flights and expulsions of Germans in Europe during and after World War II.' The number of Germans (Volksdeutsche) was the largest in new Poland - so it is quite logical the expulsion was the largest. Also, it must be remembered that the atrocities committed by those Germans against the Polish citizens (incl. Polish Jews) during WWII were the most horrific any nation has suffered from - it is then quite logical the way the Polish citizens treated the Volksdeutche after the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.34.140.195 ( talk) 04:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
... edits by topic-banned user Smith2006 which were provocative and POV. radek ( talk) 15:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
An editor has proposed that Expulsion of Germans after World War II be moved to Flight and expulsion of Germans during and after WWII. Of course, there already is an article entitled Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II - this article! Editors who are involved in this article, but who do not normally follow Expulsion of Germans after World War II, may want to get involved in the move discussion, as it could evolve into a merge discussion and would obviously have implications for this article. -- Skeezix1000 ( talk) 14:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:World War II evacuation and expulsion which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RFC bot 01:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Leave both articles separate.
I propose merging Emigration from Poland to Germany after World War II into Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II. The two articles have extensive overlap and are not easily distinguishable from one another. This article is the larger and more established of the two so I propose the information be merged here. -- Labattblueboy ( talk) 06:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Oppose: The article tells about wanted migrations (as an coauthor I can guarantee that) and the people that emigrated were mostly of non German but Slavic descent. This can't be covered by the term Expulsion of Germans as it was already said in this discussion. Opole.pl ( talk) 18:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Emigration from Poland to Germany after World War II → German population transfers from Poland (1944-1951)
Belarusians weren't deported, the section is unprecize. Xx236 ( talk) 14:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
" Stanisław Mikołajczyk, Polish prime minister of the Polish Government in Exile, supported the expulsions" - the statement was unsourced. The article informs that Stanisław Mikołajczyk supported the expulsions not as a Polish prime minister of the Polish Government in Exile, but as a member of the puppet government, when expelled Poles arrived from former Eastern Poland. Xx236 ( talk) 12:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
The quality of such data is here very low. Xx236 ( talk) 10:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
There are numerous(that's and understatement) problems with the article. Several reasons for the population transfer are completely missing from the article. There is extensive use of problematic and controversial authors. Issues like Nazi German settlement during the war(and the fact that it was reversed post 1945 with the numbers counted as expelled) are missing from the article. The summary is not line with Wiki standards and needs to be trimmed.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:04, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a new German book "Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte" by Hahn and Hahn, which describes German legends and myths about the "Expulsion". This Wikipedia should inform about facts, rather than legends and myths. Xx236 ( talk) 13:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Kamusella uses the same numbers many sources do, but he uses the word "expulsion" instead "flight and expulsion". Xx236 ( talk) 11:21, 21 February 2011 (UTC) No serious source supports Kamusella's story, there weren't 7 million Germans East to Oder-Neisse line in May 1945. Xx236 ( talk) 13:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Erwin Ay, Rettende Ufer: Von Ostpreußen nach Dänemark, BoD – Books on Demand, 2005.
Needs to be removed.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
During the war some Polish citizens collaborated with Hitler Germany, most were from the pre-war German minority. Some were nominal "Volksdeutsche" and rehabiliated. However, among the collaborators were Polish citizens who committed crimes against humanity during the war. Those that remained in Poland were put on trial. What was their fate? What do modern Polish sources tell us? -- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
There are rather poor articles Pursuit of Nazi collaborators, Organised persecution of ethnic Germans.
Norman Naimark's book "Fires of Hatred. Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth - Century Europe" is quoted 7 times in this article. The book is biased, it describes the expulsion of Germans but not the expulsion of Poles. Naimark's views have been rejected by Hahn and Hahn (Alte Legenden und neue Besuche im Osten. Über Norman Naimarks Geschichtsbilder, in: Zeitschrift für Geschichtswissenschaft 54/2006, S. 687-700). Naimark is "returning to the tradition of the German populist (völkisch) historiography". Happy völkisch propaganda, dear editors.
The main war aim of Poland was independent Poland. Any discussion if Poland wanted this or that is absurd, because the superpowers designed post-war Europe, Poland was one of their victims. Norman Naimark himself admitted in some way he had been wrong publishing "Stalin's Genocides" in 2010. Xx236 ( talk) 14:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
The 1939 German census data includes German Jews in the total German population. The Schieder report also includes German speaking Jews in the population used compute losses in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rumania and Yugoslavia. Ingo Haar points this out in his recent articles. This should be no surprise since rehabilitated Nazis like Fritz Valjaec [6] and Wilfred Krallert [7] were authors of the reports!-- Woogie10w ( talk) 09:48, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
The article doesn't inform about the period since 2007. "The Polish reaction was severely criticized in Germany" - it's not a correct summary of Klaudia Kraft's article. Xx236 ( talk) 11:57, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
There's quite a bit in the article about the resettlement of the lands vacated and the debate on the number of deaths, but I don't see anything on where the expelled Germans settled after they were expelled. It might be worth a line or two if it is known.-- Wikimedes ( talk) 18:21, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
In 1950 almost all were in Germany, east or west, after 1950 some emmigrated overseas. I knew Germans from Poland in Bavaria, they ate Polish style food and could also speak Polish. A copy of Mein Kampf was on the bookshelf.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 00:12, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I might have to consult our administration about this. The problem is more serious than it seems. I traced down an external link to hidden source (i.e. presumably referenced off-line) and I immediately realized that a lot of what we have here is a literal (I mean, word for word) translation from copyrighted German original. Here's just an example.
Michael G. Esch, Holm Sundhaussen, Definitionsmacht, Utopie, Vergeltung: "Ethnische Säuberungen" im östlichen Europa des 20. Jahrhunderts.
There is Milęcin and Mielęcin but this camp was probably a former German camp in Włocławek. Glatz is Kłodzko now. Sikawa was a former German camp, now in Łódź. Xx236 ( talk) 11:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting my Polish spelling, Wiki really needs a BOT to fix Polish-- Woogie10w ( talk) 12:54, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Failed for WPPOLAND. There is at least one oustanding citation tag, and article is tagged with NPOV review needed. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Should this article be moved to Genocide of Germans in Poland after World War II? Regardless of whatever the Nazi/German leadership may have done, we cannot dismiss or minimize the suffering of many millions of ordinary Germans. Genocide does not imply mass murder; it can refer to any efforts at wiping out a certain ethnic group from a certain area. Genocide refers to a collection of ethnic cleansing operations organized from the top down. Certainly Soviet and Polish government after WWII went to great efforts to wipe out the large German population in regions taken from Germany? 71.169.183.40 ( talk) 14:52, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Suggesting that mass-murdering is equal to expelling under the term "genocide" is unacceptable. How can you compare a planned extermination with a forcible relocation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.48.221.121 ( talk) 19:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage.) Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=5502 http://library.fes.de/library/netzquelle/zwangsmigration/en-46pl.html and other sources. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:47, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Milicja Obywatelska was the Communist/Socialist police. What do you mean by militia? Xx236 ( talk) 07:39, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The Deportation to the Soviet Union section informs only about Germans working in the SU. Many Germans were killed or imprisoned. Xx236 ( talk) 12:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Example: Wilm Hosenfeld. Xx236 ( talk) 07:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "Of around 12.4 million Germans residing within the lands of post-war Poland in 1944, 3.6 million were expelled, one million were certified as Poles, 300,000 remained in Poland as a German minority, and up to 1.1 million are unaccounted for and presumed to be dead. [70]" This adds up to 6 million Germans. What happened to the other 6.4 million? Junes ( talk) 11:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The section presents only POV of some Germans and quotes a specific German source. Xx236 ( talk) 07:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The section does not inform about persecutions of Nazis and alleged Nazis by Soviet authorities. Prisoners were deported to the SU, tried and deported to camps or executed. Xx236 ( talk) 07:56, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Lower Silesia also became a Polish war aim, as well as the Baltic coast west of Stettin as far as Rostock and occupation of the Kiel Canal. Who and when defined such war aim? Xx236 ( talk) 09:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Removed, since source does not claim Baltic coast and Rostock was Polish war aim. Rather, it says "The Poles went so far to demand OCCUPATION RIGHTS amongst Baltic coast... and sought to participate in occupation of the Kiel canal". Szopen ( talk) 12:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Czech opinion about NN's book [2]. Xx236 ( talk) 13:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Governments, including Polish government in exile, make various demands, more or less serious. I have no problem with noting that Polish government in exile made certain demands (this probably should be discussed more in its own article), but we should not confuse political demands with "war aims" (one could misread this as "Poland started the war aiming for occupation of Eastern Germany" or something like that).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
"But as the war progressed, Polish ambitions grew. The almost completely German city of Stettin (Szczecin) and the adjacent islands were claimed as "the key to Central Europe". The Poles went so far to demand occupation rights along the Baltic as far as Rostock-Warnemünde and Rügen and sought to participate in the occupation of the Kiel canal. Lower Silesia, inhabited by nearly three million Germans, also eventually became a central focus of Polish war aims."
Does Naimark give any sources for his opinions nor only about Szczecin, but also about Lower Silesia, since I have never heard of such Polish war aims while I know a bit about that part of history.
In all the cultures I have ever encountered, "dear" in an exchange betweeen otherwise unacquainted people is a sign of condescension, not politeness.
Szczecin is a "key to Central Europe", because it controls Odra river. Sudeten and Danzig were main reasons of WWII, so noone would be happy with new Danzig - Szczecin. Xx236 ( talk) 09:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
No matter what is Naimark credibility, the sentence "Rostock was Polish war aim" is unclear, though one could argue not actually false. According to the Naimark, Polish "war aims" included "occupation rights" for Rostock etc. Since French, British and Americans left from their occupation zones, I see no reason why Poles wouldn't leave the occupational zone. However, initial (now corrected) sentence in article may suggest that the war aim for Poland was joining Rostock to Poland - which is not supported even by Naimark. The recent changes by Skapperod at least avoided this ambiguity. I would still want to be this clarified more, but because I don't know how, I won't edit the sentence. If I may suggest something, I havein my library several books about Polish-German relations during the war, which present the evolution of the Polish plans for western Polish borders. I can search there. Until now, I think Skapperod's version may stay, until someone proves Naimark is not credible. If Naimark wrote "the Poles", he probably meant some official people - and Naimark being historian probably based his opinion on some reliable source (I hope). The sentence in book is referenced, but free preview does not allow me to see this reference. Maybe this reference would solve the issue. Does anyone have access to the whole book? Szopen ( talk) 09:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Polish Foreign Minister Zaleski included the deportation of Germans from prewar Poland and East Prussia as a major Polish war aim. 94, page 123 - what does it mean? Can a ministry define any war aim? I doubt very much. Reference 94 isn't available for me. Xx236 ( talk) 11:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I have here "Walka dyplomatyczna o miejsce Polski w Europie 1939-1945" by Włodzimierz T. Kowalski, wydanie szóste (uzupełniona), Książka i Wiedza 1985. ISBN 83-05-11212-8.
Some quotes which you may find interesting. Page 130-131: "Chronologically first document of government-in-exile which precisely formulated those aims was >>Biuletyn Informacyjny MSZ nr 1<< from 28 November 1939. :" ...(Poland should get safe borders, A.D ) ... "based on strategical borders which could be defended, which demands amongst others the condition of giving to us East Prussia". Page 132: Zaleski about German minority (1940, 19 February): "The question of population of German ancestry became special problem, which is outside the problem of minorities, and inseparably is tied to German-Polish relationship. Current suffering of Polish population create in this case special right for Polish nation, which MAY DEMAND (stress mine, A.D.) that their executioners should leave Polish territory, after defeat of the Reich, ..." "The above document points that in Polish emigree circles quite early was discussed ("rozważano" forgot how to say that in English AD) - or rather, taken into the account as one of many alternative - case of resettlng of German population from nw borders of Poland. Such discussion however, as one may conclude, have not resulted in creating any precise directives and giving this matter for broader forum as international forum. There is no basis therefore, for searching a link between those discussion and later decision made by Greater powers..."
page 243-245: the memo "The western boundaries of Poland" given by Sikorski to Sumner Welles, Decmber 4th, 1942. Text was never published in whole. The memo stipulated the need of incorporation into Poland Eastern Prussia, Opole and Pomerania, and TEMPORARY OCCUPATION of other German territories. "According to the concept of Sikorski, the territories which should be given the statute of >>strict occupation<< and which should be finally divided in peace conference, were on west from prewar Polish-German border, to the line >> along left bank of Nysa Łużycka and left bank of Oder, including Stettin, the island in estuary and including island of Rugen. The occupational state will be Poland, and in the southern region, Poland together with Czechoslovakia<<. .... Sikorski government however excluded the possibility of pusing the borders to the Nysa and Oder. The 4th point of mentioned document (not the memo, but Polish document from 7 October) stated: >> Extremely dangerous is gaving unrealistic ("fantastycznych", AD) territorial claims , for example pushing to Bobr or Nysa Łużycka and INCLUDING WHOLE LOWER SILESIA, with population which is fanatically anti-Polish, because Germans in Poland would count then 9 millions and NECESSARY REMOVALS WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE, and one should not be illusioned about possibility of >>reslavisation<< ... Making such territorial claims discredits Poles in the eyes of anglosaxon opinion, making Poles the nation of unstoppable greed, which in fatal way damages our real aspiration in the west"
And so on.. later also never in the book it'smentioned that government-in-exile wanted whole Lower Silesia. Only Opole, Pomorze, Eastern Prussia. And strict TEMPORARY occupation of some more territories. And Zaleski memo does notinclude expulsion as war aim, but only as one of alternatives, never precised, and never it seems actually gave to the western allies. Szopen ( talk) 09:16, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for quoting your sources in so much detail. Now what are we going to make of it? The article as it is now does not mention expulsion of Germans from the western territories as a war aim (that however in one case is stated and sourced for East Prussia and pre-war Poland), but "only" occupation. It also clearly states that about what territories exactly should be occupied in the West there were different opinions at different times. Maybe you point out what part exactly you see in conflict with the sources cited above?
I think it is important to have this short paragraph about Polish territorial interests because the occupied territory in 1945 turned out to become the expulsion's site and was integrated into the new Polish state right from the start of Polish occupation. As it is stated in the article, expulsions even began at the most western frontier of the occupied territory (that turned out to be the Oder-Neisse line). That however does not imply that plans for expulsion/integration of the occupied territories existed already in 1940. It just turned out to make no difference in 1945. I think this can be drawn clearly from the article's current state. (I interpreted your main concern being that with the early 40s' demands occupied is not equal with integrated and/or planned expulsions from, I hope that is correct.) Regards Skäpperöd ( talk) 11:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The terminology of the regions is indeed a little tricky. Śląsk Opolski is not Lower Silesia, but the western part of Upper Silesia (former Regierungsbezirk Oppeln of the Province of Upper Silesia) that has not become Polish during the interbellum (as opposed to Polish Upper Silesia, the Kattowitz region). Lower Silesia means the Breslau area. With "Pomerania", there is also some confusion, as Polish Pomorze usually referred to Pomerelia (Danzig region), while the Stettin region is "Western Pomerania" in Polish; from the German perspective, the region with Stettin and Kolberg is Pommern (Pomerania), while the Danzig region (Polish Pomorze) is Pomerellen.
With the "war aims": I am not sure if the above sources refer to the same memos/speeches/whatever of Sikorski and/or Zaleski as the sources cited in the article. If they do, we have two different secondary/tertiary source interpretations of the same primary source, and those must be stated and attributed as different POVs. If they don't, and that's what I think right now, they should either be added or in some other way be integrated (e.g. as additional references to specific parts of the sentences, maybe slightly reformulated without interfering with the initial refs). I would not object to your proposal of changing "war aims" to "considered by g-in-e" (to me, that is the same just differently formulated), yet it must be clearly stated that these considerations in 1940 were about the territory of pre-war PL with "minor" annexations such as East Prussia, as it is stated now. The "plan" to expel every German east of the O-N-line arose to my knowledge only later, when it was clear that Stalin would not let go his annexations east of the C-line, and Polish as well as Soviet officials had learned toward the end of the war that the Western allies would not intervene to anything they were about to do in territory controlled by them. For the reasons above, I would object changing Lower to Opole Silesia. Skäpperöd ( talk) 15:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
WT Kowalski was a biased Communist and his books were censored, so I would check any letter in it. Xx236 ( talk) 15:36, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Polish military means both Soviet controlled Polish military and Polish military in the West. Xx236 ( talk) 11:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
The article is written too much like emotional essay rather then encyclopedic article. Also a lot of needed information was removed-for example the fact that territories in which the population transfer was made by the Allies were not seen as really Germany but Germanised Slavic and Baltic territories and this was thus seen as de-Germanisation. Currently its hard not to see that the article has very pro-German view on things and uses overwhelmingly authors noted for pro-German bias.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Tony Judt writes most of the people in population transfer were in fact women and late-adult men. However as I know that several polls and surveys were done regarding various things associated with German Nazism by the Allies-was there any survey done regarding the percentage of Nazi members within the number of Germans in population transfer ? It is certainly a scholary issue to consider.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
"German settlement in the former eastern territories of Germany " Actually this sentence is about settlement in Piast Poland, Bohemia, Austria that later became part of Germany, it now reads as they always settled in Germany. This is innacurate and should be corrected in such way that will not confuse the reader.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
It concerned Poles as well. And in places like Silesia German population increased actually in that period.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Writes several times that the main reason from the Polish side for population transfer were atrocities carried out by Volksdeutsche in 1939 and later. This isn't represented in the current form of the article. Seems relevant as this is a major work regarding the subject. Additional Detlef writes that another reason, but of secondary importance was the strategic border that allowed better defence against German invasion-the 1939 border was seen as reason for rapid defeat of Poland. Third-Brandes writes that the to understand the situation one needs to see not only Nazi Germany but overall German and Prussian treatment of Poles, Czechs throughout earlier centuries that culminated in those events. This is barely represented in the current articles. -- Molobo ( talk) 22:01, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
A bot at Bundesarchiv has been uploading images to the Commons. Here's one that could be used in this article. There are many more. Binksternet ( talk) 19:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article relies in 70% on German sources, 25% on English ones and only in 5% on Polish ones. This likely means it is heavily biased towards German POV.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Section "Allied decisions: Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam conferences" discusses the conferences and the British policy, but not the policy of USA and USSR. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:47, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I've moved this section to talk: it was poorly referenced, tagged for months as NPOV, and likely represents UNDUE weight (or sneakly advertising) of the POV of Niels Redecker (Google search doesn't return any meaningful hits that could assert his reliability).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Niels Redecker argues that Poland's legal environment has changed since 1990 and describes opportunities that expellees and their descendants may pursue. He notes, for example, that despite a widespread belief that land ownership by foreigners is still effectively banned in Poland, there are in fact no longer major obstacles to the acquisition of real estate by non-citizens. So expellees and their descendants can already return to their former homeland in Poland if they so wished and have the necessary amount of money.
Redecker also expresses optimism about pursuing property restitution claims in Polish courts. Although the Polish courts continue to uphold the validity of the laws governing expropriation, they have shown a willingness to overturn individual expropriations that did not fully conform to the intent and the provisions of those laws. One group of cases that would certainly seem to fall into this category involves German Jewish claimants whose property had been confiscated by the Nazi regime in the 1930s and then nationalized by Poland after the war. While judgments on these cases have so far been mixed, Redecker argues that such claims are likely to make headway, especially in the context of Poland's entry into the European Union. This could, he suggests, serve as a wedge opening up the way for broader challenges to the expulsion laws and successful restitution claims by non-Jews. Redecker is careful to note that because German expellees, aware that full restitution or compensation from the Polish state is unrealistic, would "be satisfied with symbolic compensation".
Ref: von Redecker, Niels. Die polnischen Vertreibungsdekrete und die offenen Vermögensfragen zwischen Deutschland und Polen. Studien des Instituts für Ostrecht München. Frankfurt a. M.: Peter Lang, 2003. 129 pp. ISBN 9783631506240. (p. 55).
No mention of milions of German colonists as part of the Germans who left Poland. Why ?-- Gwinndeith ( talk) 18:09, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Twice a reference is used where all that is cited is, "Overy, ibid". What does that mean? I'm assuming Overy is refering to Richard Overy and ibid of course means: Ibid (Latin, short for ibidem, "the same place") is the term used to provide an endnote or footnote citation or reference for a source that was cited in the preceding endnote or footnote. But the same as what reference? Which of Overy books is the information from? -- Esemono ( talk) 10:58, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
<ref name="Overy">{{cite book | last = Richard Overy| authorlink = Richard Overy| title = The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich|edition= July 1, 1997|pages= 144| publisher = Penguin (Non-Classics) | isbn= 0140513302}}</ref>
'The flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland was the largest of a series of flights and expulsions of Germans in Europe during and after World War II.' The number of Germans (Volksdeutsche) was the largest in new Poland - so it is quite logical the expulsion was the largest. Also, it must be remembered that the atrocities committed by those Germans against the Polish citizens (incl. Polish Jews) during WWII were the most horrific any nation has suffered from - it is then quite logical the way the Polish citizens treated the Volksdeutche after the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.34.140.195 ( talk) 04:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
... edits by topic-banned user Smith2006 which were provocative and POV. radek ( talk) 15:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
An editor has proposed that Expulsion of Germans after World War II be moved to Flight and expulsion of Germans during and after WWII. Of course, there already is an article entitled Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II - this article! Editors who are involved in this article, but who do not normally follow Expulsion of Germans after World War II, may want to get involved in the move discussion, as it could evolve into a merge discussion and would obviously have implications for this article. -- Skeezix1000 ( talk) 14:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:World War II evacuation and expulsion which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RFC bot 01:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Leave both articles separate.
I propose merging Emigration from Poland to Germany after World War II into Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II. The two articles have extensive overlap and are not easily distinguishable from one another. This article is the larger and more established of the two so I propose the information be merged here. -- Labattblueboy ( talk) 06:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Oppose: The article tells about wanted migrations (as an coauthor I can guarantee that) and the people that emigrated were mostly of non German but Slavic descent. This can't be covered by the term Expulsion of Germans as it was already said in this discussion. Opole.pl ( talk) 18:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Emigration from Poland to Germany after World War II → German population transfers from Poland (1944-1951)
Belarusians weren't deported, the section is unprecize. Xx236 ( talk) 14:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
" Stanisław Mikołajczyk, Polish prime minister of the Polish Government in Exile, supported the expulsions" - the statement was unsourced. The article informs that Stanisław Mikołajczyk supported the expulsions not as a Polish prime minister of the Polish Government in Exile, but as a member of the puppet government, when expelled Poles arrived from former Eastern Poland. Xx236 ( talk) 12:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
The quality of such data is here very low. Xx236 ( talk) 10:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
There are numerous(that's and understatement) problems with the article. Several reasons for the population transfer are completely missing from the article. There is extensive use of problematic and controversial authors. Issues like Nazi German settlement during the war(and the fact that it was reversed post 1945 with the numbers counted as expelled) are missing from the article. The summary is not line with Wiki standards and needs to be trimmed.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:04, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a new German book "Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte" by Hahn and Hahn, which describes German legends and myths about the "Expulsion". This Wikipedia should inform about facts, rather than legends and myths. Xx236 ( talk) 13:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Kamusella uses the same numbers many sources do, but he uses the word "expulsion" instead "flight and expulsion". Xx236 ( talk) 11:21, 21 February 2011 (UTC) No serious source supports Kamusella's story, there weren't 7 million Germans East to Oder-Neisse line in May 1945. Xx236 ( talk) 13:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Erwin Ay, Rettende Ufer: Von Ostpreußen nach Dänemark, BoD – Books on Demand, 2005.
Needs to be removed.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
During the war some Polish citizens collaborated with Hitler Germany, most were from the pre-war German minority. Some were nominal "Volksdeutsche" and rehabiliated. However, among the collaborators were Polish citizens who committed crimes against humanity during the war. Those that remained in Poland were put on trial. What was their fate? What do modern Polish sources tell us? -- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
There are rather poor articles Pursuit of Nazi collaborators, Organised persecution of ethnic Germans.
Norman Naimark's book "Fires of Hatred. Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth - Century Europe" is quoted 7 times in this article. The book is biased, it describes the expulsion of Germans but not the expulsion of Poles. Naimark's views have been rejected by Hahn and Hahn (Alte Legenden und neue Besuche im Osten. Über Norman Naimarks Geschichtsbilder, in: Zeitschrift für Geschichtswissenschaft 54/2006, S. 687-700). Naimark is "returning to the tradition of the German populist (völkisch) historiography". Happy völkisch propaganda, dear editors.
The main war aim of Poland was independent Poland. Any discussion if Poland wanted this or that is absurd, because the superpowers designed post-war Europe, Poland was one of their victims. Norman Naimark himself admitted in some way he had been wrong publishing "Stalin's Genocides" in 2010. Xx236 ( talk) 14:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
The 1939 German census data includes German Jews in the total German population. The Schieder report also includes German speaking Jews in the population used compute losses in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rumania and Yugoslavia. Ingo Haar points this out in his recent articles. This should be no surprise since rehabilitated Nazis like Fritz Valjaec [6] and Wilfred Krallert [7] were authors of the reports!-- Woogie10w ( talk) 09:48, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
The article doesn't inform about the period since 2007. "The Polish reaction was severely criticized in Germany" - it's not a correct summary of Klaudia Kraft's article. Xx236 ( talk) 11:57, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
There's quite a bit in the article about the resettlement of the lands vacated and the debate on the number of deaths, but I don't see anything on where the expelled Germans settled after they were expelled. It might be worth a line or two if it is known.-- Wikimedes ( talk) 18:21, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
In 1950 almost all were in Germany, east or west, after 1950 some emmigrated overseas. I knew Germans from Poland in Bavaria, they ate Polish style food and could also speak Polish. A copy of Mein Kampf was on the bookshelf.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 00:12, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I might have to consult our administration about this. The problem is more serious than it seems. I traced down an external link to hidden source (i.e. presumably referenced off-line) and I immediately realized that a lot of what we have here is a literal (I mean, word for word) translation from copyrighted German original. Here's just an example.
Michael G. Esch, Holm Sundhaussen, Definitionsmacht, Utopie, Vergeltung: "Ethnische Säuberungen" im östlichen Europa des 20. Jahrhunderts.
There is Milęcin and Mielęcin but this camp was probably a former German camp in Włocławek. Glatz is Kłodzko now. Sikawa was a former German camp, now in Łódź. Xx236 ( talk) 11:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting my Polish spelling, Wiki really needs a BOT to fix Polish-- Woogie10w ( talk) 12:54, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Failed for WPPOLAND. There is at least one oustanding citation tag, and article is tagged with NPOV review needed. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Should this article be moved to Genocide of Germans in Poland after World War II? Regardless of whatever the Nazi/German leadership may have done, we cannot dismiss or minimize the suffering of many millions of ordinary Germans. Genocide does not imply mass murder; it can refer to any efforts at wiping out a certain ethnic group from a certain area. Genocide refers to a collection of ethnic cleansing operations organized from the top down. Certainly Soviet and Polish government after WWII went to great efforts to wipe out the large German population in regions taken from Germany? 71.169.183.40 ( talk) 14:52, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Suggesting that mass-murdering is equal to expelling under the term "genocide" is unacceptable. How can you compare a planned extermination with a forcible relocation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.48.221.121 ( talk) 19:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage.) Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=5502 http://library.fes.de/library/netzquelle/zwangsmigration/en-46pl.html and other sources. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:47, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Milicja Obywatelska was the Communist/Socialist police. What do you mean by militia? Xx236 ( talk) 07:39, 9 June 2016 (UTC)