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Old straw poll with 5 images to choose from
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This Wikimedia Commons photo(scroll down for three cropped versions) is an
official photo of the Trump campaign. So it would probably be the best one to put at the top, right? I
There is zero support for my suggestion here. In contrast, there was clear consensus for image C above, so I will go ahead and insert it.
Anythingyouwant (
talk) 23:11, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
User:Winkelvi, please revert yourself. As to image C versus E, the tally is an overwhelming landslide, 12 to 7, meaning over 63% favor C. Preferring C over E:
Preferring E over C:
Anythingyouwant ( talk) 01:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
This has all the earmarks of an "official" RfC. An RfC can - and often does - go on for up to 30 days. --
WV ●
✉
✓ 14:15, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Sanity pleaThe notion that it's about quality of arguments is great, when there is some basis in p&g for any argument, or when there is a uninvolved closer to make that call. It's completely worthless when all arguments are subjective, even when claimed to be otherwise, and all participants are responsible for evaluation of all arguments. That simply does not work, ever. I guarantee that I will always see my arguments as more weighty than those of my opponents—that's why they are my arguments—and I would expect no different from them.
I thought the consensus was for picture C?
Zigzig20s (
talk) 11:07, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Photo Support
26% Stated no specific support, but weighed in:
Snake
bgd,
Anythingyouwant, {
What is the difference in indication if someone said "Strong Support" vs. "Support"? Calibrador ( talk) 06:34, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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VOTING RESULTS C – 128.3 votes – 51.8% I am installing C in the article per a combination of these results, prior discussions with others (details available upon request), and my judgment. My edit summary will be: Installing new infobox image per voting results (51.8%). If you feel the results do not show sufficient consensus for change, revert and a closer will be requested to make the call. Discarded as out-of-accepted-process: A – 2.6 votes Edit disputed, closer requested. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:27, 20 September 2016 (UTC) Verification of tallies. ― Mandruss ☎ 14:53, 24 September 2016 (UTC) |
Notification of previous participants
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@ Ddcm8991, Jean-Jacques Georges, Calibrador, MrX, Display name 99, ShadowDragon343, and TexasMan34: @ Zigzig20s, TL565, DarthBotto, Dervorguilla, CCamp2013, Writegeist, and Winkelvi: @ Proud User, CFredkin, JFG, Knowledgekid87, Objective3000, Davey2010, and Snake bgd: @ Anythingyouwant, Graham11, MelanieN, Buster7, Stemoc, and 1990'sguy: ― Mandruss ☎ 08:40, 10 September 2016 (UTC) @ Crumpled Fire, SW3 5DL, and Yopienso: ― Mandruss ☎ 12:15, 10 September 2016 (UTC) |
Notification of project and talk page participants
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Image C or E be used in the lead? To indicate less-than-strong support, feel free to divide six votes between C and E, as was instructed up to September 20. ~ Rob13 Talk 13:49, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
"There is little fuss occurring in this section, which assures a consensus on 20 September"Well, actually no. There will not be consensus, there will be votes tallied. You set this up in your instructions so that there would be no discussion and discussion leads to consensus. What you are going for is votes and the weight of each. That's definitely not going to lead to a consensus. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:12, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Comment: I changed the 'E' image on Commons on the 12th (it was protected due to a edit war back in March) to a higher resolution version without knowing that this conversation was going on, due to being reminded about an old request to do so. It's the same image, but a 'slightly' wider crop, some very minor color adjustment (less orange), and far higher resolution. If anyone thinks that was a controversial change, please poke me over on Commons (or ping me here) and I'll change it back and put the higher resolution version under a different filename. Revent talk 08:53, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Someone just close this nonsense already. Photo C will not win since it's not near unanimous. Why the fuck is "voting" being extended when there is no such thing as voting on Wikipedia? Just accept the fact that the current image is never going to change. I'm not going to waste another month on a fucking image that will just go nowhere, so I'm done with this place for good. This was the saddest thing I ever saw on Wikipedia. TL565 ( talk) 02:50, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I making this section because people clearly do not seem to understand why this is the system that is in place. Up above please only make your votes and if you have anything to discuss do so here in a clear manner, that we know what you are responding to. There has been MUCH discussion about the photos, so this voting is not in place of the discussion, just a natural progression. Chase ( talk) 20:37, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Because of his COI (declared or undeclared, I don’t know), the comments from Calibrador that attempt to influence the result in favor of the photograph he took should be struck and discounted. And anyway, run-off voting is not the way to resolve a content dispute. A tally of votes here will not provide a valid reason to keep or change the original photograph. Writegeist ( talk) 21:49, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
we have to go with the photo that has the strongest arguments.Fine, and who makes that determination? Don't say that we make it together, collectively. I think I and those who agree with me have the strongest arguments. You think you and those who agree with you have the strongest arguments. You can say you have the strongest arguments because you pointed to Wikipedia standards not to use dark or blurry photos, and my response is that my preference photo is not dark or blurry. To my mind, I have defeated your claim that you have the strongest arguments. We can debate this to the end of time and neither of us will change our position. Seriously, how often have you seen someone reverse their position in a Wikipedia debate? I've seen it happen about five times in over three years, and three of those cases were me changing my mind. So how is this disagreement resolved without a closer? Such a closer would have to very subjectively decide whether my photo is dark or blurry, and being an admin does not make one more qualified than anyone else to make such judgments. Admins are experts in Wikipedia p&g, not photo evaluation. ― Mandruss ☎ 08:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Because I anticipate (in good faith!) that almost everyone will find this image preferable to those proposed heretofore, I will insert boldly into the BLP. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 03:19, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Why not extend by 24 hours and then count the !votes?- I believe I just answered that question. Sorry you didn't like my answer. ― Mandruss ☎ 05:45, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
I am going to briefly come out of retirement just this once, since I was involved in this discussion when it started. We just had a long drawn out tiring discussion on this for three weeks. Do we really need start this whole thing all over again when we are literally just hours away from voting being closed? More than 40 people have already voted and I don't think anyone is going snap their fingers because someone suddenly suggested a new photo at the last second. This is exactly the kind of thing I anticipated and why I left this place.(Although an admin made it more official since then.) I think Anythingyouwant's original vote should be counted regardless since he only struck it out due to a clear COI. Btw, I Oppose the new photo. TL565 ( talk) 06:04, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
BTW, I'd like to see at least one editor verify my counts. I was pretty careful, but a lot of shit was changing during the final few hours, after I had done the counts. With each change, I had to adjust the tallies accordingly, and I could have made a mistake in the confusion. For that matter, I could have made a mistake in the original counts. If someone could take that on and respond here that would be awesome. ― Mandruss ☎ 15:37, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
So is the run off voting done? Are we doing Picture C or are we keeping it put? CatcherStorm talk 18:43, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Davey2010: You are not wasting your time, however, a closer has been requested. So we must respect that and that means, the consensus will not be decided until the closer decides it. Chase ( talk) 16:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
I was away from my laptop computer for a few days, but have now had an opportunity to crop the image at right. I will request that the Wikimedia Graphics Lab advise whether the microphone shadow could or should be removed, and will update this comment accordingly. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 20:27, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Chase has expressed a concern that "there is an RfC that is probably taking place about the photo". If so, it's not listed at RfC:Biographies.
Nor is it needed -- we no longer need to get a "firm" talk-page consensus, whatever that was supposed to mean. A very "weak" consensus is good enough to let us
break this long deadlock.
Some of the discussion contributors may reasonably believe that we do have at least a weak consensus; some, that we don't. Others may be ambivalent. Perhaps we should just poll them. We may get a clear answer; or we may not. But I tink it would be interesting to find out. --
Dervorguilla (
talk) 03:47, 22 September 2016 (UTC) 06:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | → | Archive 35 |
Old straw poll with 5 images to choose from
| |||||
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This Wikimedia Commons photo(scroll down for three cropped versions) is an
official photo of the Trump campaign. So it would probably be the best one to put at the top, right? I
There is zero support for my suggestion here. In contrast, there was clear consensus for image C above, so I will go ahead and insert it.
Anythingyouwant (
talk) 23:11, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
User:Winkelvi, please revert yourself. As to image C versus E, the tally is an overwhelming landslide, 12 to 7, meaning over 63% favor C. Preferring C over E:
Preferring E over C:
Anythingyouwant ( talk) 01:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
This has all the earmarks of an "official" RfC. An RfC can - and often does - go on for up to 30 days. --
WV ●
✉
✓ 14:15, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Sanity pleaThe notion that it's about quality of arguments is great, when there is some basis in p&g for any argument, or when there is a uninvolved closer to make that call. It's completely worthless when all arguments are subjective, even when claimed to be otherwise, and all participants are responsible for evaluation of all arguments. That simply does not work, ever. I guarantee that I will always see my arguments as more weighty than those of my opponents—that's why they are my arguments—and I would expect no different from them.
I thought the consensus was for picture C?
Zigzig20s (
talk) 11:07, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Photo Support
26% Stated no specific support, but weighed in:
Snake
bgd,
Anythingyouwant, {
What is the difference in indication if someone said "Strong Support" vs. "Support"? Calibrador ( talk) 06:34, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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VOTING RESULTS C – 128.3 votes – 51.8% I am installing C in the article per a combination of these results, prior discussions with others (details available upon request), and my judgment. My edit summary will be: Installing new infobox image per voting results (51.8%). If you feel the results do not show sufficient consensus for change, revert and a closer will be requested to make the call. Discarded as out-of-accepted-process: A – 2.6 votes Edit disputed, closer requested. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:27, 20 September 2016 (UTC) Verification of tallies. ― Mandruss ☎ 14:53, 24 September 2016 (UTC) |
Notification of previous participants
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@ Ddcm8991, Jean-Jacques Georges, Calibrador, MrX, Display name 99, ShadowDragon343, and TexasMan34: @ Zigzig20s, TL565, DarthBotto, Dervorguilla, CCamp2013, Writegeist, and Winkelvi: @ Proud User, CFredkin, JFG, Knowledgekid87, Objective3000, Davey2010, and Snake bgd: @ Anythingyouwant, Graham11, MelanieN, Buster7, Stemoc, and 1990'sguy: ― Mandruss ☎ 08:40, 10 September 2016 (UTC) @ Crumpled Fire, SW3 5DL, and Yopienso: ― Mandruss ☎ 12:15, 10 September 2016 (UTC) |
Notification of project and talk page participants
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Image C or E be used in the lead? To indicate less-than-strong support, feel free to divide six votes between C and E, as was instructed up to September 20. ~ Rob13 Talk 13:49, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
"There is little fuss occurring in this section, which assures a consensus on 20 September"Well, actually no. There will not be consensus, there will be votes tallied. You set this up in your instructions so that there would be no discussion and discussion leads to consensus. What you are going for is votes and the weight of each. That's definitely not going to lead to a consensus. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:12, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Comment: I changed the 'E' image on Commons on the 12th (it was protected due to a edit war back in March) to a higher resolution version without knowing that this conversation was going on, due to being reminded about an old request to do so. It's the same image, but a 'slightly' wider crop, some very minor color adjustment (less orange), and far higher resolution. If anyone thinks that was a controversial change, please poke me over on Commons (or ping me here) and I'll change it back and put the higher resolution version under a different filename. Revent talk 08:53, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Someone just close this nonsense already. Photo C will not win since it's not near unanimous. Why the fuck is "voting" being extended when there is no such thing as voting on Wikipedia? Just accept the fact that the current image is never going to change. I'm not going to waste another month on a fucking image that will just go nowhere, so I'm done with this place for good. This was the saddest thing I ever saw on Wikipedia. TL565 ( talk) 02:50, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I making this section because people clearly do not seem to understand why this is the system that is in place. Up above please only make your votes and if you have anything to discuss do so here in a clear manner, that we know what you are responding to. There has been MUCH discussion about the photos, so this voting is not in place of the discussion, just a natural progression. Chase ( talk) 20:37, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Because of his COI (declared or undeclared, I don’t know), the comments from Calibrador that attempt to influence the result in favor of the photograph he took should be struck and discounted. And anyway, run-off voting is not the way to resolve a content dispute. A tally of votes here will not provide a valid reason to keep or change the original photograph. Writegeist ( talk) 21:49, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
we have to go with the photo that has the strongest arguments.Fine, and who makes that determination? Don't say that we make it together, collectively. I think I and those who agree with me have the strongest arguments. You think you and those who agree with you have the strongest arguments. You can say you have the strongest arguments because you pointed to Wikipedia standards not to use dark or blurry photos, and my response is that my preference photo is not dark or blurry. To my mind, I have defeated your claim that you have the strongest arguments. We can debate this to the end of time and neither of us will change our position. Seriously, how often have you seen someone reverse their position in a Wikipedia debate? I've seen it happen about five times in over three years, and three of those cases were me changing my mind. So how is this disagreement resolved without a closer? Such a closer would have to very subjectively decide whether my photo is dark or blurry, and being an admin does not make one more qualified than anyone else to make such judgments. Admins are experts in Wikipedia p&g, not photo evaluation. ― Mandruss ☎ 08:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Because I anticipate (in good faith!) that almost everyone will find this image preferable to those proposed heretofore, I will insert boldly into the BLP. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 03:19, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Why not extend by 24 hours and then count the !votes?- I believe I just answered that question. Sorry you didn't like my answer. ― Mandruss ☎ 05:45, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
I am going to briefly come out of retirement just this once, since I was involved in this discussion when it started. We just had a long drawn out tiring discussion on this for three weeks. Do we really need start this whole thing all over again when we are literally just hours away from voting being closed? More than 40 people have already voted and I don't think anyone is going snap their fingers because someone suddenly suggested a new photo at the last second. This is exactly the kind of thing I anticipated and why I left this place.(Although an admin made it more official since then.) I think Anythingyouwant's original vote should be counted regardless since he only struck it out due to a clear COI. Btw, I Oppose the new photo. TL565 ( talk) 06:04, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
BTW, I'd like to see at least one editor verify my counts. I was pretty careful, but a lot of shit was changing during the final few hours, after I had done the counts. With each change, I had to adjust the tallies accordingly, and I could have made a mistake in the confusion. For that matter, I could have made a mistake in the original counts. If someone could take that on and respond here that would be awesome. ― Mandruss ☎ 15:37, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
So is the run off voting done? Are we doing Picture C or are we keeping it put? CatcherStorm talk 18:43, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Davey2010: You are not wasting your time, however, a closer has been requested. So we must respect that and that means, the consensus will not be decided until the closer decides it. Chase ( talk) 16:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
I was away from my laptop computer for a few days, but have now had an opportunity to crop the image at right. I will request that the Wikimedia Graphics Lab advise whether the microphone shadow could or should be removed, and will update this comment accordingly. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 20:27, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Chase has expressed a concern that "there is an RfC that is probably taking place about the photo". If so, it's not listed at RfC:Biographies.
Nor is it needed -- we no longer need to get a "firm" talk-page consensus, whatever that was supposed to mean. A very "weak" consensus is good enough to let us
break this long deadlock.
Some of the discussion contributors may reasonably believe that we do have at least a weak consensus; some, that we don't. Others may be ambivalent. Perhaps we should just poll them. We may get a clear answer; or we may not. But I tink it would be interesting to find out. --
Dervorguilla (
talk) 03:47, 22 September 2016 (UTC) 06:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)