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A deletion discussion has resulted in a consensus to merge Health of Donald Trump here. I propose that this merger should include all content in that article cited to sources generally considered to be reliable sources. Thoughts? bd2412 T 23:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I propose this as a merge/replacement for the current content under 'Health and lifestyle'. I trimmed some of the existing material to keep the size roughly the same.
Since the early days of Donald Trump's presidential campaign, his physical and mental health have been a subject of public debate. Trump was seventy years old when he took office, surpassing Ronald Reagan as the oldest person to assume the presidency. [1] Comments on his age, weight and lifestyle have raised questions about his physical health.
Trump does not drink alcohol, a reaction to his older brother Fred Trump Jr.'s alcoholism and early death. [2] [3] He has stated that he has never smoked cigarettes or used drugs, including marijuana. [4] He avoids tea and coffee, but fast food is a favorite cuisine of his. [5] Trump has said he prefers three to four hours of sleep per night. [6]
In December 2015, Trump's personal physician, Harold Bornstein, released a superlative-laden letter of health, which stated that if elected, Trump "will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency". [7] [8] Bornstein noted that Trump had an appendectomy at age 10, but made no mention of the bone spurs that Trump and his campaign said caused his medical deferment from the military at age 22. [9] According to Bornstein in 2018, Trump himself had dictated the contents of the December 2015 letter. [10] A follow-up letter by Bornstein in September 2016 showed Trump's blood pressure, liver and thyroid functions to be in normal ranges, and that he takes a statin for high cholesterol levels. Bornstein, who had been Trump's physician since 1980, later said that three Trump representatives, including Trump's longtime bodyguard Keith Schiller, had taken all of Trump's medical records from Bornstein's office in February 2017. [11] [12]
In January 2018, Trump was examined by White House physician Ronny Jackson, who stated that he was in excellent health and that his cardiac assessment revealed no medical issues, [13] although his weight and cholesterol level were higher than recommended. [14] Several outside cardiologists commented that Trump's weight, lifestyle, and LDL cholesterol level ought to have raised serious concerns about his cardiac health. [15] In February 2019, Trump underwent another physical examination; White House physician Sean Conley said Trump was in "very good health overall", although Trump was now clinically obese, at 243 lb (110 kg) with a BMI of 30.4. [16] Trump's 2019 coronary CT calcium scan score indicates he has a form of heart disease called coronary artery disease, which is common for white males at his age. [17]
Numerous public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals have speculated that Donald Trump may have mental health challenges, ranging from narcissistic personality disorder to some form of dementia. [18] [19] [20] In October 2017, Bandy X. Lee published The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, containing essays from 27 psychologists, psychiatrists, and mental health professionals on the "clear and present danger" that Trump's mental health poses to the "nation and individual well being". They argued that the President's issues affected the mental health of the United States population, [21] and that he placed the country at grave risk of war because of his pathological traits. [22] They defined Trump's behavior in terms of psychiatric diseases.
, such as narcissistic personality disorder.[23]
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[T]here are a few hard and fast principles that he himself lives by: no drugs, no cigarettes and no alcohol. Trump's abstinence from alcohol was largely shaped by the death of his brother, Fred Jr., from alcoholism in 1981.
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WATTERS: "Have you ever smoked weed?" TRUMP: "No, I have not. I have not. I would tell you 100 percent because everyone else seems to admit it nowadays, so I would actually tell you. This is almost like, it's almost like 'Hey, it's a sign'. No, I have never. I have never smoked a cigarette, either."
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- Mr X 🖋 14:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
OK, I have spent some time researching this and getting additional and more current/authoritative sources. Most of the sources from the article we are merging were from 2017 or earlier. I also added Trump's own opinion of his mental health. So I have a revised proposal for the last paragraph:
Numerous public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals have speculated that Trump may have mental health challenges. The most common diagnosis cited is narcissistic personality disorder; [1] some cite delusional disorder; [2] [3] some suggestsome form ofearly dementia. [4] [5] In April 2017 more than 25,000 mental health professional signed a letter statingthat in their professional judgement, "Donald Trumpthey believe Trump "manifests serious mental illness".that renders him psychologically incapable of competently discharging the duties of President of the United States."[6] In October 2017, psychiatrist Bandy X. Lee published The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, containing essays from 27 psychologists, psychiatrists, and mental health professionals on the danger they believe that Trump's mental health poses to the nation and to individual well being. They argued that the president's issues affected the mental health of the United States population, [3] and that he placed the country at grave risk of war because of his mental traits. [7] Trump has dismissed questions regarding his mental health, saying that he is a "very stable genius" [8] and that he has "one of the great memories of all time". [9]
Sources
- ^ Alford, Henry (November 11, 2015). "Is Donald Trump Actually a Narcissist? Therapists Weigh In!". Vanity Fair. Archived from the original on 2018-07-05. Retrieved 2018-07-20.
{{ cite web}}
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suggested) ( help)- ^ Lee, Brandy X (May 14, 2018). "Mental Health Experts Speak of an Increasingly Dangerous Era". Psychology Today. Retrieved 14 June 2019.
- ^ a b Herbst, Diane (May 1, 2018). "Top Psychiatrists Gather to Warn That Donald Trump 'Represents a Danger to Public Health'". People. Retrieved 14 June 2019.
- ^ Gartner, John (April 9, 2019). "Trump's cognitive deficits seem worse. We need to know if he has dementia: Psychologist". USA Today. Retrieved 14 June 2019.
- ^ Who Is Bandy Lee? Trump's Mental Health Questioned By Yale Psychiatrist. Archived 2018-01-24 at the Wayback Machine Gayathri Anuradha, International Business Times, 3 January 2018. Retrieved 23 January 2018.
- ^ Willingham, Emily. "The Trump Psych Debate: Is It Wrong To Say He's Mentally Ill?". Forbes. Archived from the original on 2018-07-17. Retrieved 2018-07-20.
{{ cite web}}
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{{ cite news}}
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suggested) ( help)- ^ Baker, Peter; Haberman, Maggie (January 6, 2018). "Trump, Defending His Mental Fitness, Says He's a 'Very Stable Genius'". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 2018-07-24. Retrieved 2018-07-24.
{{ cite news}}
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suggested) ( help)- ^ Smith, Allan (October 27, 2017). "TRUMP: I remember call to Gold Star widow better than she does because I have 'one of the great memories of all-time'". Business Insider. Retrieved 2019-04-24.
Comments? -- MelanieN ( talk) 20:29, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, all. Let's give it one more day for input before adding it. I take it everyone is OK with the rest of the modifications MrX suggested? -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:48, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
"will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency"( [5], [6], [7]) I wonder if Trump's doctor had examined all the previous presidents, since he makes a direct claim about their (allegedly bad) health (claiming that Obama in his 40s was less healthy than a septuagenarian who never exercises and who is transported in a golf cart), or does this bogus requirement only apply when someone says something about Trump?
I will be adding his height to this paragraph. It was removed. starship .paint ( talk) 02:56, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Oh, I forgot to say I Support MelanieN’s modified proposal. Per WP:PUBLICFIGURE. starship .paint ( talk) 00:46, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Mental health Rumors, speculations and slurs (apparently from deleted/discredited Health article) in proposal above already got fast-track inserted, ignoring User:Atsme and User:MONGO and not waiting.
I’ve deleted that as contrary to the standing consensus#21. I believe this topic - and specifically the ‘Dangerous case’ book and psych petition - were RFCed and categorically any such were excluded from RFC. You can have a separate article on the book, but not in this BLP.
If it reappears, I believe the consensus section guides removal and grants exception to 1RR so anyone can remove it repeatedly if need be - so please do not reinsert.
p.s Seems to me the Health article created in 2018 AFTER the 2017 consensus was a way to circumvent the BLP policy, WEIGHT and OFFTOPIC concerns, and this consensus #21. Just my opinion, but that seems also what happened for Consensus #22 - in 2018 the Veracity article is created. That a small snippet was taken elsewhere and got greatly expanded seems a POVFORK, verging on ATTACK page. May need another RFC on the fork/unfork proprieties there....
Cheers Markbassett ( talk) 04:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
... the current consensus was established in August 2017. Has anything changed since then? starship .paint ( talk) 06:25, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
the old man at the bar sounding off about the world’s ills ... wild detours ... random segues ... Trump sniffed frequently, and at times his speech sounded slurred
Feel free to provide more information. starship .paint ( talk) 06:25, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
The only consensus regarding any material on this topic is the consensus in this section in favour of the text proposal by MelanieN, following the earlier decision to merge the most central parts of Health of Donald Trump into this article. As there is consensus for the text proposal it should be restored. The health article is neither "deleted" nor "discredited". -- Tataral ( talk) 08:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
User:Tataral That is false. As I clearly stated, the paragraph is directly contrary to Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus #21. The allegations, even the publications, were discussed and dismissed and felt recordable as categorically blocked in 2017. That a spawn article was done in 2018 which evades that seems the main event to me.
My thought: by consensus at the AFD page for Health of Donald Trump, we are supposed to merge that article into this. That article contains three short paragraphs about physical health. We pretty much reproduce those paragraphs in their entirety. It also contains ten paragraphs about his mental health. One of the complaints about the Health of DT article was that it overemphasized mental illness allegations, even including wisecracks from political opponents. We have respected that complaint by reproducing almost none of that material - just a one-paragraph summary of what was said by professionals in the field. IMO this proposal is responsive to both the requirement to include something on the subject (per the AfD), and the insistence that anything we say needs to be very carefully sourced and as neutral as we can make it. -- MelanieN ( talk) 04:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
There should be a sentence about exercise, which is a key part of lifestyle, even more key since he is obese and was overweight. Possibly something like: Trump plays golf, but reportedly views exercise as a waste of finite energy. but there's actually more in the sources. I present a wide variety of different content below, but I'm sure I can find multiple sources for the same content (which you guys wouldn't want, as you want to trim the article) starship .paint ( talk) 00:38, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
The Washington Post’s 2016 biography of the president, which noted that Trump mostly gave up athletics after college because he “believed the human body was like a battery, with a finite amount of energy, which exercise only depleted.”
"Nearly a dozen White House officials and sources close to Trump said they don't believe he's set foot in the fitness room in the White House residence, maintaining his view that exercise would be a waste of the energy he has always touted as one of his best attributes."
Trump said he was not following any special diet or exercise regimen for the campaign. "All my friends who work out all the time, they’re going for knee replacements, hip replacements — they’re a disaster" he said. He exerts himself fully by standing in front of an audience for an hour, as he just did. "That’s exercise."
"Some people exercise, some people don’t. Some people just haven’t done that as part of their routine. And I would say that’s the category he falls in right now"and same source:
But there’s one form of physical activity with which Trump is closely associated: golf.
"I get exercise. I mean I walk, I this, I that ... I run over to a building next door. I get more exercise than people think ... A lot of people go to the gym and they’ll work out for two hours and all. I’ve seen people ... then they get their new knees when they’re 55 years old and they get their new hips and they do all those things. I don’t have those problems" He gets exercise by playing golf, he said, even though he typically rides around the course in a golf cart. Walking would leave him on the course longer than he prefers, he said. "I don’t want to spend the time."starship .paint ( talk) 00:27, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Interesting that that wasn't mentioned in the article we are merging. Yet another way in which it was a lousy article. I suggest it could go in the same paragraph where people point out that his diet, weight, and lifestyle are suboptimal. -- MelanieN ( talk) 02:48, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks MelanieN. Here's some options I'm proposing: starship .paint ( talk) 13:53, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
I think we should keep it brief but informative. How about a combination of A and B: "Trump plays golf but otherwise does not exercise, viewing it as a waste of energy." -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:45, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Well, at this rate, there will be an RfC to rank options (if something isn't supported here, we can leave it out as an option). Added MelanieN's sentence as option E, added a slightly expanded version Option F which I prefer. starship .paint ( talk) 02:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
@
MrX,
MelanieN, and
Scjessey: - I found a WaPo source quoting Trump's tweet that golf is his primary form of exercise
. It also says Trump is renowned for his use of a golf cart — to the point that he has actually angered some other golfers by driving his cart onto the green at his own clubs.
Shall we just go with: According to Trump, his "primary form of exercise" is
golf; he is known for travelling in a
golf cart between holes. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Starship.paint (
talk •
contribs)
I concur with this edit at the Health article from which this material came. The source we're citing doesn't appear to support the words "psychiatric diseases". Is it too late to propose this tweak to what MrX added to the article today? ― Mandruss ☎ 17:32, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
MrX, I see that you added your original version of the last paragraph to the article. In your edit summary you said Adding merged content from Health of Donald Trump per consensus at talk: Donald Trump#Health and lifestyle proposal (Support: MrX, Tataral, Scjessey, bd2412, MelanieN, TParis, JFG; Oppose: MONGO, Atsme) Substantially more participation in this discussion than in both previous discussions documented in consensus #21. This it the new consensus, unless MelanieN's modifications to paragraph 5 get a little more support. Actually I thought we already had consensus for my modified version. After I posted it there were approving comments from you yourself as well as JFG, TParis, Tataral, Scjessey - that’s five, plus me - as well as opposition from Markbassett and Atsme. The later version has more and more current sources, and it does not contain the sentence about “psychiatric diseases” that was objected to, and it does contain Trump’s rebuttal. Virtually everyone, with the except of bd2412, that had commented on the original version later said they liked the modified version. So I’m not sure how you reached the conclusion that the original version, rather than the modified version, had consensus. -- MelanieN ( talk) 22:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Our new “current consensus #36” says Include one paragraph merged from
Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him.
I have a slight disagreement with that wording. I agree with keeping it to one paragraph. But I would absolutely oppose reporting any views expressed by “public figures” (the Health article actually quoted Jeb Bush, as if he was some kind of authority on Bush’s mental health rather than a political rival; would we quote Donald Trump to prove that Hillary Clinton is a criminal?). And I would mostly oppose comments from individual commenters - with a possible exception for a column by a mental health professional, but it’s better the way we have it where we quote the combined analyses of multiple professionals. I think it should say Include one paragraph merged from
Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by mental health professionals, even if they have not personally examined him.
What do others think? --
MelanieN (
talk) 17:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
"Numerous public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals have speculated that Trump may have mental health challenges."The version I wrote acknowledges that public figures and media sources have also speculated about Trump's mental health.- Mr X 🖋 17:40, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by mental health professionals, even if they have not personally examined him.-- MelanieN ( talk) 21:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
OK, I added the second version and completed the merge. We could still have a discussion about how the new consensus should read. I'd like it to me a little more limited as to what kind of information is allowed. -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:40, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I think we are pretty much in agreement that we do not want to actually cite opinions from anyone who is not a mental health professional, although we do mention in the opening sentence that those other groups have also made comments. As for the "violation of the Goldwater rule," we could possibly handle that by adding a footnote, along these lines: Some of these mental health professionals belong to organizations that have a
Goldwater rule. which says their members should not render an opinion about the status of a person they have not examined. Spokespeople for authors of the public statements responded that they are also bound by the principle of
Duty to warn when someone appears to be dangerous.
Do people think something like this would be necessary or helpful? (I'm not recommending it myself one way or the other, just raising a possibility.) --
MelanieN (
talk) 21:06, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Some of these mental health professionals belong to organizations that endorse the Goldwater rule, which says their members should not render an opinion about the mental health of a person they have not examined. [1] Authors of the public statements responded that they are also bound by the principle of duty to warn when someone appears to be dangerous. [2]― Mandruss ☎ 21:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Sources
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Just a note for Atsme and BD2412: the Goldwater Rule isn't mandatory for all mental health professionals. For example, the American Psychoanalytic Association says its members don't have to follow the Goldwater Rule. [12] starship .paint ( talk) 03:12, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the lead section mention that Trump is the "oldest and wealthiest" president? — JFG talk 15:03, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
The current, longstanding phrase in paragraph 2 of the lead includes:
He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, and the first without prior military or government service.
I would suggest replacing this with:
He became the first president without prior military or government service.
In recent informal discussions, some editors have said those qualifiers are unimportant statistics best left to specialized articles such as List of presidents of the United States by age and List of Presidents of the United States by net worth instead of the lead section of Trump's BLP. It was also argued that "oldest" is ageist and "wealthiest" is vulgar, and that it all was "irrelevant trivia". In support of the inclusion, it was argued that those facts were well-covered during Trump's campaign, and that similar statistics appear in other presidents' biographies. This RfC aims to resolve the disagreement. — JFG talk 15:03, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Please express your preference with Keep to preserve the status quo or with Delete to remove the "oldest and wealthiest" qualifiers. A brief rationale is welcome here. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion: oldest and wealthiest section.
@
JFG: - some editors have opined that "oldest" is ageist and "wealthiest" is vulgar
- Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't see more than one editor saying either.
[15] I'd ask that you edit that for accuracy. ―
Mandruss
☎ 15:20, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Is there a way to prevent auto-archive of this section? starship .paint ( talk) 05:03, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
{{
DNAU}}
. ―
Mandruss
☎ 06:18, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
I made
this edit - the edit summary explains why: (→Sexual misconduct allegations: a bit of ce for flow, and state what the sources support after verifying for accuracy what Trump actually said on the tape (WP is neither censored nor obligated to repeat misstatements or misrepresentations by cited sources)). Unfortunately, it was not long after I made the edit that
BullRangifer restored what I believe to be UNDUE since we're already quoting his most widely covered comment in MSM, and should not be cherrypicking parts to hang on a COATRACK. wrongfully
reverted part of it, and restored inaccurate events, misstatements by the cited sources whereas I was citing the NYTimes. I will begin with a local request regarding the restoration of the material I added. as I believe the revert was groundless.
Please comment in the relevant sections below. Atsme Talk 📧 17:24, 24 June 2019 (UTC) My sincere apologies to BullRangifer for my misreading of the edit history. Atsme Talk 📧 20:32, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
a bit of ce for flow, and state what the sources support .... I would actually support some of them as improvements (and reject others as making the article worse, for example that long piece on the
discussionon the bus that was
inadvertentlyrecorded.
Bush responded: "Whatever you want ..."What does that add to the article except unnecessary bytes? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Atsme, please strike your comments about me. You got it all wrong, right from the start. -- BullRangifer ( talk) 20:16, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
that he later defended as "locker room talk"at the very start of the section? That aspect isn't a major part of the topic. Why remove the
During the recording, Trump also spoke of his efforts to seduce a married woman, saying he "moved on her very heavily"? I also don't think that changing
with many Republicans withdrawing their endorsements of his candidacy and some urging him to quit the raceto the more stilted
resulting in a group of GOP senators and representatives withdrawing their support for his candidacy, and some requesting that he step asideis an improvement. The widespread media coverage of the 15 women who came forward after the tape is also important. And the random expansion of a dig at the Clintons seems unnecessary. -- Aquillion ( talk) 20:29, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Old text | Atsme's text | BullRangifer's revert |
---|---|---|
A total of 19 women have accused Trump of sexual misconduct as of December 2017
[update].
[1] Trump has denied all of the accusations, which he has called "false smears", and alleged a conspiracy against him.
[2]
[3]
[4] Two days before the
second presidential debate of 2016, a 2005 recording surfaced in which Trump was heard bragging about forcibly kissing and groping women.
[5]
[6]
[7] The
hot mic recording was captured on a studio bus in which Trump and
Billy Bush were preparing to film an episode of
Access Hollywood. In the tape, Trump said: "I just start kissing them ... I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it, you can do anything ... grab 'em by the pussy."
[8] During the recording, Trump also spoke of his efforts to seduce a married woman, saying he "moved on her very heavily".
[8] Trump's language on the tape was described by the media as "vulgar", "sexist", and descriptive of
sexual assault. The incident prompted him to make his first public apology during the campaign,
[9]
[10] and caused outrage across the political spectrum,
[11]
[12] with many Republicans withdrawing their endorsements of his candidacy and some urging him to quit the race.
[13] Subsequently, at least 15 women
[14] came forward with new accusations of sexual misconduct, including unwanted kissing and groping, resulting in widespread media coverage.
[15]
[16] In his two public statements in response to the controversy, Trump referred to allegations of inappropriate behavior Bill and Hillary Clinton.
[17] |
A total of 19 women have accused Trump of sexual misconduct as of December 2017
[update].
[18] He denied all accusations, calling them "false smears", and alleged there was a conspiracy against him.
[19]
[3]
[20] In 2016, two days before the
second presidential debate, a 2005 audio tape surfaced in which Trump, a television celebrity at the time, was recorded bragging about forcibly kissing and groping women.
[21]
[22]
[23] The
hot mic discussion took place on a studio bus where Trump and
Billy Bush were preparing to film an episode of
Access Hollywood. Trump was inadvertently recorded making lewd and inappropriate statements that he later defended as "locker room talk",
[24] including the following: "You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything." Bush responded, "Whatever you want..." to which Trump replied, "Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything."
[25]
[8] Trump's language on the tape has been described as "vulgar", "sexist", and descriptive of sexual assault. The incident's wide-spread media exposure led to Trump's first public apology during the campaign, [26] [27] and caused outrage across the political spectrum, [28] [29] resulting in a group of GOP senators and representatives withdrawing their support for his candidacy, and some requesting that he step aside. [25] [30] In addition to the 2 women who had previously alleged sexual misconduct against Trump, 15 more came forward after the tape was released [14] with new accusations of sexual misconduct, including unwanted kissing and groping. [31] [32] Trump issued a public statement apologizing for his inappropriate boasting on the tape, but did not relent from his attacks on the Clintons, stating that "Bill Clinton 'actually abused women' and Hillary Clinton 'bullied women.' [33] |
A total of 19 women have accused Trump of sexual misconduct as of December 2017
[update].
[34] He denied all accusations, calling them "false smears", and alleged there was a conspiracy against him.
[35]
[3]
[36] In 2016, two days before the
second presidential debate, a 2005 audio tape surfaced in which Trump, a television celebrity at the time, was recorded bragging about forcibly kissing and groping women.
[37]
[38]
[39] The
hot mic discussion took place on a studio bus where Trump and
Billy Bush were preparing to film an episode of
Access Hollywood. Trump was inadvertently recorded making lewd and inappropriate statements that he later defended as "locker room talk",
[24] including the following: "You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything." Bush responded, "Whatever you want..." to which Trump replied, "Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything."
[25]
[8] During the recording, Trump also spoke of his efforts to seduce a married woman, saying he "moved on her very heavily".
[8] Trump's language on the tape has been described as "vulgar", "sexist", and descriptive of
sexual assault. The incident's wide-spread media exposure led to Trump's first public apology during the campaign,
[40]
[41] and caused outrage across the political spectrum,
[42]
[43] resulting in a group of GOP senators and representatives withdrawing their support for his candidacy, and some requesting that he step aside.
[25]
[44] In addition to the 2 women who had previously alleged sexual misconduct against Trump, 15 more came forward after the tape was released
[14] with new accusations of sexual misconduct, including unwanted kissing and groping.
[45]
[46] Trump issued a public statement apologizing for his inappropriate boasting on the tape, but did not relent from his attacks on the Clintons, stating that "Bill Clinton 'actually abused women' and Hillary Clinton 'bullied women.'
[47] |
Sources
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I don’t care about Bush’s words, you can leave it in since it’s short, you can take it out if it’s not widely covered, I’m fine either way. What I do care about is that we should not be putting Trump’s explanation about “locker room talk” before his actual quotes. I agree with Aquillion in this aspect. starship .paint ( talk) 23:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Sources
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A recent discussion was archived without reaching a definite conclusion. Based on comments from various editors there, I am formally suggesting a change of the current wording, which was selected in the prior RfC about this subject, and is in my opinion unnecessarily wordy. — JFG talk 15:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Current version:
Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.
Proposed version:
Fact-checkers have documented an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during Trump's campaign and presidency.
— JFG talk 15:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Amended proposal:
Fact-checkers have documented that Trump made an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency.
I am putting forward this amended proposal following remarks by several editors in the first day of the RfC. — JFG talk 11:14, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Please express your preference to Support or Oppose the proposed change, with a brief rationale. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion: false statements section.
JFG, you made this proposal. Can you explain your decision to limit the description of an unprecedented number
to fact-checkers
, when the body of the article (and the sources) doesn't actually say that fact-checkers have said that?
starship
.paint (
talk) 11:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Fact-checkers ... documented ... an unprecedented number. starship .paint ( talk) 01:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Can we get a close on this and let it be archived? There's clear opposition to this proposal, and now it's kind of just sitting here and not being dealt with. -- Scjessey ( talk) 13:03, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 95 | ← | Archive 98 | Archive 99 | Archive 100 | Archive 101 | Archive 102 | → | Archive 105 |
A deletion discussion has resulted in a consensus to merge Health of Donald Trump here. I propose that this merger should include all content in that article cited to sources generally considered to be reliable sources. Thoughts? bd2412 T 23:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I propose this as a merge/replacement for the current content under 'Health and lifestyle'. I trimmed some of the existing material to keep the size roughly the same.
Since the early days of Donald Trump's presidential campaign, his physical and mental health have been a subject of public debate. Trump was seventy years old when he took office, surpassing Ronald Reagan as the oldest person to assume the presidency. [1] Comments on his age, weight and lifestyle have raised questions about his physical health.
Trump does not drink alcohol, a reaction to his older brother Fred Trump Jr.'s alcoholism and early death. [2] [3] He has stated that he has never smoked cigarettes or used drugs, including marijuana. [4] He avoids tea and coffee, but fast food is a favorite cuisine of his. [5] Trump has said he prefers three to four hours of sleep per night. [6]
In December 2015, Trump's personal physician, Harold Bornstein, released a superlative-laden letter of health, which stated that if elected, Trump "will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency". [7] [8] Bornstein noted that Trump had an appendectomy at age 10, but made no mention of the bone spurs that Trump and his campaign said caused his medical deferment from the military at age 22. [9] According to Bornstein in 2018, Trump himself had dictated the contents of the December 2015 letter. [10] A follow-up letter by Bornstein in September 2016 showed Trump's blood pressure, liver and thyroid functions to be in normal ranges, and that he takes a statin for high cholesterol levels. Bornstein, who had been Trump's physician since 1980, later said that three Trump representatives, including Trump's longtime bodyguard Keith Schiller, had taken all of Trump's medical records from Bornstein's office in February 2017. [11] [12]
In January 2018, Trump was examined by White House physician Ronny Jackson, who stated that he was in excellent health and that his cardiac assessment revealed no medical issues, [13] although his weight and cholesterol level were higher than recommended. [14] Several outside cardiologists commented that Trump's weight, lifestyle, and LDL cholesterol level ought to have raised serious concerns about his cardiac health. [15] In February 2019, Trump underwent another physical examination; White House physician Sean Conley said Trump was in "very good health overall", although Trump was now clinically obese, at 243 lb (110 kg) with a BMI of 30.4. [16] Trump's 2019 coronary CT calcium scan score indicates he has a form of heart disease called coronary artery disease, which is common for white males at his age. [17]
Numerous public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals have speculated that Donald Trump may have mental health challenges, ranging from narcissistic personality disorder to some form of dementia. [18] [19] [20] In October 2017, Bandy X. Lee published The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, containing essays from 27 psychologists, psychiatrists, and mental health professionals on the "clear and present danger" that Trump's mental health poses to the "nation and individual well being". They argued that the President's issues affected the mental health of the United States population, [21] and that he placed the country at grave risk of war because of his pathological traits. [22] They defined Trump's behavior in terms of psychiatric diseases.
, such as narcissistic personality disorder.[23]
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[T]here are a few hard and fast principles that he himself lives by: no drugs, no cigarettes and no alcohol. Trump's abstinence from alcohol was largely shaped by the death of his brother, Fred Jr., from alcoholism in 1981.
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WATTERS: "Have you ever smoked weed?" TRUMP: "No, I have not. I have not. I would tell you 100 percent because everyone else seems to admit it nowadays, so I would actually tell you. This is almost like, it's almost like 'Hey, it's a sign'. No, I have never. I have never smoked a cigarette, either."
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- Mr X 🖋 14:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
OK, I have spent some time researching this and getting additional and more current/authoritative sources. Most of the sources from the article we are merging were from 2017 or earlier. I also added Trump's own opinion of his mental health. So I have a revised proposal for the last paragraph:
Numerous public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals have speculated that Trump may have mental health challenges. The most common diagnosis cited is narcissistic personality disorder; [1] some cite delusional disorder; [2] [3] some suggestsome form ofearly dementia. [4] [5] In April 2017 more than 25,000 mental health professional signed a letter statingthat in their professional judgement, "Donald Trumpthey believe Trump "manifests serious mental illness".that renders him psychologically incapable of competently discharging the duties of President of the United States."[6] In October 2017, psychiatrist Bandy X. Lee published The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, containing essays from 27 psychologists, psychiatrists, and mental health professionals on the danger they believe that Trump's mental health poses to the nation and to individual well being. They argued that the president's issues affected the mental health of the United States population, [3] and that he placed the country at grave risk of war because of his mental traits. [7] Trump has dismissed questions regarding his mental health, saying that he is a "very stable genius" [8] and that he has "one of the great memories of all time". [9]
Sources
- ^ Alford, Henry (November 11, 2015). "Is Donald Trump Actually a Narcissist? Therapists Weigh In!". Vanity Fair. Archived from the original on 2018-07-05. Retrieved 2018-07-20.
{{ cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in:|publisher=
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suggested) ( help)- ^ Lee, Brandy X (May 14, 2018). "Mental Health Experts Speak of an Increasingly Dangerous Era". Psychology Today. Retrieved 14 June 2019.
- ^ a b Herbst, Diane (May 1, 2018). "Top Psychiatrists Gather to Warn That Donald Trump 'Represents a Danger to Public Health'". People. Retrieved 14 June 2019.
- ^ Gartner, John (April 9, 2019). "Trump's cognitive deficits seem worse. We need to know if he has dementia: Psychologist". USA Today. Retrieved 14 June 2019.
- ^ Who Is Bandy Lee? Trump's Mental Health Questioned By Yale Psychiatrist. Archived 2018-01-24 at the Wayback Machine Gayathri Anuradha, International Business Times, 3 January 2018. Retrieved 23 January 2018.
- ^ Willingham, Emily. "The Trump Psych Debate: Is It Wrong To Say He's Mentally Ill?". Forbes. Archived from the original on 2018-07-17. Retrieved 2018-07-20.
{{ cite web}}
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{{ cite news}}
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suggested) ( help)- ^ Baker, Peter; Haberman, Maggie (January 6, 2018). "Trump, Defending His Mental Fitness, Says He's a 'Very Stable Genius'". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 2018-07-24. Retrieved 2018-07-24.
{{ cite news}}
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suggested) ( help)- ^ Smith, Allan (October 27, 2017). "TRUMP: I remember call to Gold Star widow better than she does because I have 'one of the great memories of all-time'". Business Insider. Retrieved 2019-04-24.
Comments? -- MelanieN ( talk) 20:29, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, all. Let's give it one more day for input before adding it. I take it everyone is OK with the rest of the modifications MrX suggested? -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:48, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
"will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency"( [5], [6], [7]) I wonder if Trump's doctor had examined all the previous presidents, since he makes a direct claim about their (allegedly bad) health (claiming that Obama in his 40s was less healthy than a septuagenarian who never exercises and who is transported in a golf cart), or does this bogus requirement only apply when someone says something about Trump?
I will be adding his height to this paragraph. It was removed. starship .paint ( talk) 02:56, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Oh, I forgot to say I Support MelanieN’s modified proposal. Per WP:PUBLICFIGURE. starship .paint ( talk) 00:46, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Mental health Rumors, speculations and slurs (apparently from deleted/discredited Health article) in proposal above already got fast-track inserted, ignoring User:Atsme and User:MONGO and not waiting.
I’ve deleted that as contrary to the standing consensus#21. I believe this topic - and specifically the ‘Dangerous case’ book and psych petition - were RFCed and categorically any such were excluded from RFC. You can have a separate article on the book, but not in this BLP.
If it reappears, I believe the consensus section guides removal and grants exception to 1RR so anyone can remove it repeatedly if need be - so please do not reinsert.
p.s Seems to me the Health article created in 2018 AFTER the 2017 consensus was a way to circumvent the BLP policy, WEIGHT and OFFTOPIC concerns, and this consensus #21. Just my opinion, but that seems also what happened for Consensus #22 - in 2018 the Veracity article is created. That a small snippet was taken elsewhere and got greatly expanded seems a POVFORK, verging on ATTACK page. May need another RFC on the fork/unfork proprieties there....
Cheers Markbassett ( talk) 04:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
... the current consensus was established in August 2017. Has anything changed since then? starship .paint ( talk) 06:25, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
the old man at the bar sounding off about the world’s ills ... wild detours ... random segues ... Trump sniffed frequently, and at times his speech sounded slurred
Feel free to provide more information. starship .paint ( talk) 06:25, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
The only consensus regarding any material on this topic is the consensus in this section in favour of the text proposal by MelanieN, following the earlier decision to merge the most central parts of Health of Donald Trump into this article. As there is consensus for the text proposal it should be restored. The health article is neither "deleted" nor "discredited". -- Tataral ( talk) 08:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
User:Tataral That is false. As I clearly stated, the paragraph is directly contrary to Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus #21. The allegations, even the publications, were discussed and dismissed and felt recordable as categorically blocked in 2017. That a spawn article was done in 2018 which evades that seems the main event to me.
My thought: by consensus at the AFD page for Health of Donald Trump, we are supposed to merge that article into this. That article contains three short paragraphs about physical health. We pretty much reproduce those paragraphs in their entirety. It also contains ten paragraphs about his mental health. One of the complaints about the Health of DT article was that it overemphasized mental illness allegations, even including wisecracks from political opponents. We have respected that complaint by reproducing almost none of that material - just a one-paragraph summary of what was said by professionals in the field. IMO this proposal is responsive to both the requirement to include something on the subject (per the AfD), and the insistence that anything we say needs to be very carefully sourced and as neutral as we can make it. -- MelanieN ( talk) 04:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
There should be a sentence about exercise, which is a key part of lifestyle, even more key since he is obese and was overweight. Possibly something like: Trump plays golf, but reportedly views exercise as a waste of finite energy. but there's actually more in the sources. I present a wide variety of different content below, but I'm sure I can find multiple sources for the same content (which you guys wouldn't want, as you want to trim the article) starship .paint ( talk) 00:38, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
The Washington Post’s 2016 biography of the president, which noted that Trump mostly gave up athletics after college because he “believed the human body was like a battery, with a finite amount of energy, which exercise only depleted.”
"Nearly a dozen White House officials and sources close to Trump said they don't believe he's set foot in the fitness room in the White House residence, maintaining his view that exercise would be a waste of the energy he has always touted as one of his best attributes."
Trump said he was not following any special diet or exercise regimen for the campaign. "All my friends who work out all the time, they’re going for knee replacements, hip replacements — they’re a disaster" he said. He exerts himself fully by standing in front of an audience for an hour, as he just did. "That’s exercise."
"Some people exercise, some people don’t. Some people just haven’t done that as part of their routine. And I would say that’s the category he falls in right now"and same source:
But there’s one form of physical activity with which Trump is closely associated: golf.
"I get exercise. I mean I walk, I this, I that ... I run over to a building next door. I get more exercise than people think ... A lot of people go to the gym and they’ll work out for two hours and all. I’ve seen people ... then they get their new knees when they’re 55 years old and they get their new hips and they do all those things. I don’t have those problems" He gets exercise by playing golf, he said, even though he typically rides around the course in a golf cart. Walking would leave him on the course longer than he prefers, he said. "I don’t want to spend the time."starship .paint ( talk) 00:27, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Interesting that that wasn't mentioned in the article we are merging. Yet another way in which it was a lousy article. I suggest it could go in the same paragraph where people point out that his diet, weight, and lifestyle are suboptimal. -- MelanieN ( talk) 02:48, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks MelanieN. Here's some options I'm proposing: starship .paint ( talk) 13:53, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
I think we should keep it brief but informative. How about a combination of A and B: "Trump plays golf but otherwise does not exercise, viewing it as a waste of energy." -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:45, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Well, at this rate, there will be an RfC to rank options (if something isn't supported here, we can leave it out as an option). Added MelanieN's sentence as option E, added a slightly expanded version Option F which I prefer. starship .paint ( talk) 02:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
@
MrX,
MelanieN, and
Scjessey: - I found a WaPo source quoting Trump's tweet that golf is his primary form of exercise
. It also says Trump is renowned for his use of a golf cart — to the point that he has actually angered some other golfers by driving his cart onto the green at his own clubs.
Shall we just go with: According to Trump, his "primary form of exercise" is
golf; he is known for travelling in a
golf cart between holes. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Starship.paint (
talk •
contribs)
I concur with this edit at the Health article from which this material came. The source we're citing doesn't appear to support the words "psychiatric diseases". Is it too late to propose this tweak to what MrX added to the article today? ― Mandruss ☎ 17:32, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
MrX, I see that you added your original version of the last paragraph to the article. In your edit summary you said Adding merged content from Health of Donald Trump per consensus at talk: Donald Trump#Health and lifestyle proposal (Support: MrX, Tataral, Scjessey, bd2412, MelanieN, TParis, JFG; Oppose: MONGO, Atsme) Substantially more participation in this discussion than in both previous discussions documented in consensus #21. This it the new consensus, unless MelanieN's modifications to paragraph 5 get a little more support. Actually I thought we already had consensus for my modified version. After I posted it there were approving comments from you yourself as well as JFG, TParis, Tataral, Scjessey - that’s five, plus me - as well as opposition from Markbassett and Atsme. The later version has more and more current sources, and it does not contain the sentence about “psychiatric diseases” that was objected to, and it does contain Trump’s rebuttal. Virtually everyone, with the except of bd2412, that had commented on the original version later said they liked the modified version. So I’m not sure how you reached the conclusion that the original version, rather than the modified version, had consensus. -- MelanieN ( talk) 22:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Our new “current consensus #36” says Include one paragraph merged from
Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him.
I have a slight disagreement with that wording. I agree with keeping it to one paragraph. But I would absolutely oppose reporting any views expressed by “public figures” (the Health article actually quoted Jeb Bush, as if he was some kind of authority on Bush’s mental health rather than a political rival; would we quote Donald Trump to prove that Hillary Clinton is a criminal?). And I would mostly oppose comments from individual commenters - with a possible exception for a column by a mental health professional, but it’s better the way we have it where we quote the combined analyses of multiple professionals. I think it should say Include one paragraph merged from
Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by mental health professionals, even if they have not personally examined him.
What do others think? --
MelanieN (
talk) 17:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
"Numerous public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals have speculated that Trump may have mental health challenges."The version I wrote acknowledges that public figures and media sources have also speculated about Trump's mental health.- Mr X 🖋 17:40, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by mental health professionals, even if they have not personally examined him.-- MelanieN ( talk) 21:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
OK, I added the second version and completed the merge. We could still have a discussion about how the new consensus should read. I'd like it to me a little more limited as to what kind of information is allowed. -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:40, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I think we are pretty much in agreement that we do not want to actually cite opinions from anyone who is not a mental health professional, although we do mention in the opening sentence that those other groups have also made comments. As for the "violation of the Goldwater rule," we could possibly handle that by adding a footnote, along these lines: Some of these mental health professionals belong to organizations that have a
Goldwater rule. which says their members should not render an opinion about the status of a person they have not examined. Spokespeople for authors of the public statements responded that they are also bound by the principle of
Duty to warn when someone appears to be dangerous.
Do people think something like this would be necessary or helpful? (I'm not recommending it myself one way or the other, just raising a possibility.) --
MelanieN (
talk) 21:06, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Some of these mental health professionals belong to organizations that endorse the Goldwater rule, which says their members should not render an opinion about the mental health of a person they have not examined. [1] Authors of the public statements responded that they are also bound by the principle of duty to warn when someone appears to be dangerous. [2]― Mandruss ☎ 21:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Sources
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Just a note for Atsme and BD2412: the Goldwater Rule isn't mandatory for all mental health professionals. For example, the American Psychoanalytic Association says its members don't have to follow the Goldwater Rule. [12] starship .paint ( talk) 03:12, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the lead section mention that Trump is the "oldest and wealthiest" president? — JFG talk 15:03, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
The current, longstanding phrase in paragraph 2 of the lead includes:
He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, and the first without prior military or government service.
I would suggest replacing this with:
He became the first president without prior military or government service.
In recent informal discussions, some editors have said those qualifiers are unimportant statistics best left to specialized articles such as List of presidents of the United States by age and List of Presidents of the United States by net worth instead of the lead section of Trump's BLP. It was also argued that "oldest" is ageist and "wealthiest" is vulgar, and that it all was "irrelevant trivia". In support of the inclusion, it was argued that those facts were well-covered during Trump's campaign, and that similar statistics appear in other presidents' biographies. This RfC aims to resolve the disagreement. — JFG talk 15:03, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Please express your preference with Keep to preserve the status quo or with Delete to remove the "oldest and wealthiest" qualifiers. A brief rationale is welcome here. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion: oldest and wealthiest section.
@
JFG: - some editors have opined that "oldest" is ageist and "wealthiest" is vulgar
- Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't see more than one editor saying either.
[15] I'd ask that you edit that for accuracy. ―
Mandruss
☎ 15:20, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Is there a way to prevent auto-archive of this section? starship .paint ( talk) 05:03, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
{{
DNAU}}
. ―
Mandruss
☎ 06:18, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
I made
this edit - the edit summary explains why: (→Sexual misconduct allegations: a bit of ce for flow, and state what the sources support after verifying for accuracy what Trump actually said on the tape (WP is neither censored nor obligated to repeat misstatements or misrepresentations by cited sources)). Unfortunately, it was not long after I made the edit that
BullRangifer restored what I believe to be UNDUE since we're already quoting his most widely covered comment in MSM, and should not be cherrypicking parts to hang on a COATRACK. wrongfully
reverted part of it, and restored inaccurate events, misstatements by the cited sources whereas I was citing the NYTimes. I will begin with a local request regarding the restoration of the material I added. as I believe the revert was groundless.
Please comment in the relevant sections below. Atsme Talk 📧 17:24, 24 June 2019 (UTC) My sincere apologies to BullRangifer for my misreading of the edit history. Atsme Talk 📧 20:32, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
a bit of ce for flow, and state what the sources support .... I would actually support some of them as improvements (and reject others as making the article worse, for example that long piece on the
discussionon the bus that was
inadvertentlyrecorded.
Bush responded: "Whatever you want ..."What does that add to the article except unnecessary bytes? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Atsme, please strike your comments about me. You got it all wrong, right from the start. -- BullRangifer ( talk) 20:16, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
that he later defended as "locker room talk"at the very start of the section? That aspect isn't a major part of the topic. Why remove the
During the recording, Trump also spoke of his efforts to seduce a married woman, saying he "moved on her very heavily"? I also don't think that changing
with many Republicans withdrawing their endorsements of his candidacy and some urging him to quit the raceto the more stilted
resulting in a group of GOP senators and representatives withdrawing their support for his candidacy, and some requesting that he step asideis an improvement. The widespread media coverage of the 15 women who came forward after the tape is also important. And the random expansion of a dig at the Clintons seems unnecessary. -- Aquillion ( talk) 20:29, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Old text | Atsme's text | BullRangifer's revert |
---|---|---|
A total of 19 women have accused Trump of sexual misconduct as of December 2017
[update].
[1] Trump has denied all of the accusations, which he has called "false smears", and alleged a conspiracy against him.
[2]
[3]
[4] Two days before the
second presidential debate of 2016, a 2005 recording surfaced in which Trump was heard bragging about forcibly kissing and groping women.
[5]
[6]
[7] The
hot mic recording was captured on a studio bus in which Trump and
Billy Bush were preparing to film an episode of
Access Hollywood. In the tape, Trump said: "I just start kissing them ... I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it, you can do anything ... grab 'em by the pussy."
[8] During the recording, Trump also spoke of his efforts to seduce a married woman, saying he "moved on her very heavily".
[8] Trump's language on the tape was described by the media as "vulgar", "sexist", and descriptive of
sexual assault. The incident prompted him to make his first public apology during the campaign,
[9]
[10] and caused outrage across the political spectrum,
[11]
[12] with many Republicans withdrawing their endorsements of his candidacy and some urging him to quit the race.
[13] Subsequently, at least 15 women
[14] came forward with new accusations of sexual misconduct, including unwanted kissing and groping, resulting in widespread media coverage.
[15]
[16] In his two public statements in response to the controversy, Trump referred to allegations of inappropriate behavior Bill and Hillary Clinton.
[17] |
A total of 19 women have accused Trump of sexual misconduct as of December 2017
[update].
[18] He denied all accusations, calling them "false smears", and alleged there was a conspiracy against him.
[19]
[3]
[20] In 2016, two days before the
second presidential debate, a 2005 audio tape surfaced in which Trump, a television celebrity at the time, was recorded bragging about forcibly kissing and groping women.
[21]
[22]
[23] The
hot mic discussion took place on a studio bus where Trump and
Billy Bush were preparing to film an episode of
Access Hollywood. Trump was inadvertently recorded making lewd and inappropriate statements that he later defended as "locker room talk",
[24] including the following: "You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything." Bush responded, "Whatever you want..." to which Trump replied, "Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything."
[25]
[8] Trump's language on the tape has been described as "vulgar", "sexist", and descriptive of sexual assault. The incident's wide-spread media exposure led to Trump's first public apology during the campaign, [26] [27] and caused outrage across the political spectrum, [28] [29] resulting in a group of GOP senators and representatives withdrawing their support for his candidacy, and some requesting that he step aside. [25] [30] In addition to the 2 women who had previously alleged sexual misconduct against Trump, 15 more came forward after the tape was released [14] with new accusations of sexual misconduct, including unwanted kissing and groping. [31] [32] Trump issued a public statement apologizing for his inappropriate boasting on the tape, but did not relent from his attacks on the Clintons, stating that "Bill Clinton 'actually abused women' and Hillary Clinton 'bullied women.' [33] |
A total of 19 women have accused Trump of sexual misconduct as of December 2017
[update].
[34] He denied all accusations, calling them "false smears", and alleged there was a conspiracy against him.
[35]
[3]
[36] In 2016, two days before the
second presidential debate, a 2005 audio tape surfaced in which Trump, a television celebrity at the time, was recorded bragging about forcibly kissing and groping women.
[37]
[38]
[39] The
hot mic discussion took place on a studio bus where Trump and
Billy Bush were preparing to film an episode of
Access Hollywood. Trump was inadvertently recorded making lewd and inappropriate statements that he later defended as "locker room talk",
[24] including the following: "You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything." Bush responded, "Whatever you want..." to which Trump replied, "Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything."
[25]
[8] During the recording, Trump also spoke of his efforts to seduce a married woman, saying he "moved on her very heavily".
[8] Trump's language on the tape has been described as "vulgar", "sexist", and descriptive of
sexual assault. The incident's wide-spread media exposure led to Trump's first public apology during the campaign,
[40]
[41] and caused outrage across the political spectrum,
[42]
[43] resulting in a group of GOP senators and representatives withdrawing their support for his candidacy, and some requesting that he step aside.
[25]
[44] In addition to the 2 women who had previously alleged sexual misconduct against Trump, 15 more came forward after the tape was released
[14] with new accusations of sexual misconduct, including unwanted kissing and groping.
[45]
[46] Trump issued a public statement apologizing for his inappropriate boasting on the tape, but did not relent from his attacks on the Clintons, stating that "Bill Clinton 'actually abused women' and Hillary Clinton 'bullied women.'
[47] |
Sources
|
---|
|
I don’t care about Bush’s words, you can leave it in since it’s short, you can take it out if it’s not widely covered, I’m fine either way. What I do care about is that we should not be putting Trump’s explanation about “locker room talk” before his actual quotes. I agree with Aquillion in this aspect. starship .paint ( talk) 23:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Sources
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---|
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A recent discussion was archived without reaching a definite conclusion. Based on comments from various editors there, I am formally suggesting a change of the current wording, which was selected in the prior RfC about this subject, and is in my opinion unnecessarily wordy. — JFG talk 15:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Current version:
Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.
Proposed version:
Fact-checkers have documented an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during Trump's campaign and presidency.
— JFG talk 15:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
Amended proposal:
Fact-checkers have documented that Trump made an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency.
I am putting forward this amended proposal following remarks by several editors in the first day of the RfC. — JFG talk 11:14, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Please express your preference to Support or Oppose the proposed change, with a brief rationale. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion: false statements section.
JFG, you made this proposal. Can you explain your decision to limit the description of an unprecedented number
to fact-checkers
, when the body of the article (and the sources) doesn't actually say that fact-checkers have said that?
starship
.paint (
talk) 11:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Fact-checkers ... documented ... an unprecedented number. starship .paint ( talk) 01:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Can we get a close on this and let it be archived? There's clear opposition to this proposal, and now it's kind of just sitting here and not being dealt with. -- Scjessey ( talk) 13:03, 30 June 2019 (UTC)