This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Putting this info here for storage until we find citations for it; most of it is probably true, but we need references. Firecatalta ( talk) 03:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Family members of people with BPD often feel confused and frustrated by unclear diagnoses, ineffective treatments, and inaccurate information. Theories that post-traumatic stress disorder plays a causal role in the development of BPD [1] (see Gender and Terminology), as well as findings that a majority of people with BPD have experienced childhood trauma (see Childhood abuse), can stigmatize family members by implying that they bear primary responsibility for this disorder, despite evidence of diverse causes (see Causes). citation needed
Under "controversies" the article tends to support one side of the argument and then not the other. This makes for POV writing. Especially since I've seen writing from the other side. (Walking on Eggshells, for example.)
It needs to be balanced if it is a controversy instead of writing only one side.
Also, I caught a little overstating as well.
For example: - "The myth of violence" That's POV. Stating it's a myth makes it POV. If it's disputed, i.e. a controversy, there should be another side. For example, while describing "witch" part of BP on walking on Eggshells, Christine Anne Lawson *does* write about violence. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201109/the-world-the-borderline-mother-and-her-children
The violence also talks more on physical violence and promotes the idea that BPD people would never harm others. But there is also emotional abuse as well... and that's underplayed in the article. (Saying that harm is only to the self and never to others.)
Also underplayed in the article is the effect that BPD has on others and the difficulties family members (not just parents) and romantic partners have, blaming them for the issues and making the people with BPD, worse... which ignores the real impact that it can have on family members and again places blame through POV language. There is plenty of research to fill that section. It's kinda one-sided. It mentions that mateiral is slanted... then what is that material? Present it. If it's too long, it needs another article, be summarized not to be dropped from this one. (I saw it was edited out of earlier drafts as well, which I find just odd.)
Also, lying, I've read may be associated with the dissociation and inability to create a self identity, but this seems to be selectively cut out to say that people with BPD are thought to never lie... But where is the other side where some clinicians think they do purposefully lie?
Also deleted from the article is the difficulty on the mental health professionals dealing with BPD. Since I've seen this in Psychology Today several times, several manuals describing the disease and so on, I find this is also POV.
In another words, this article is kinda selective, while mentioning that there is a controversy, it cuts to one side and says the other side is wrong, and that breaks NPOV standards on Wikipedia.-- Hitsuji Kinno ( talk) 16:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
according to the ICD-10 "F60.3" is called "Emotionally unstable personality disorder" and not "Borderline Personality Disorder." "Borderline" is actually just a type of the Emotionally unstable personality disorder, just like "Aggressive" and "Explosive". I refer to http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F60-F69 the official WHO page. Also, in other languages, those types have their very own wikipedia article.
I propose that this article be renamed "Emotionally unstable personality disorder" with a redirect from "Borderline Personality Disorder", and also the three types (Borderline/Aggressive/Explosive) should each have their own section in the article.
(btw, this is my first suggestion on wikipedia, I am not quite sure if I have done this correctly) 98.230.133.110 ( talk)
Hi all,
We've spoken previously about nominating this article for good article status, and I think we're ready! My last question is, do we know if the same issues about copyright apply to the posting of DSM 5 criteria as they did to the DSM-IV criteria? If so, we'll want to edit those out prior to applying for GAS. Great job everyone!
Firecatalta ( talk) 02:47, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
The text about minfulness added today, [4] as it is currently written and sourced, is inappropriate for Wikipedia for a few reasons:
Given this I'm going to remove the section again, and I strongly encourage User:Breath in and out (and anyone else who's interested, obviously) to discuss the issues here and not to add the text back in its current form. Sourcing would be a good place to start - are there good, medical reliable sources for this? Cheers, Dawn Bard ( talk) 19:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Response from Caroline1981: Dawn I'm okay with Firecatalta's helpful suggestion to include only a short sentence on mindfulness with the link to the main mindfulness article. (In fact ideally instead of mindfulness being its own section there should be a section on treatments -- and mindfulness, DBT, etc should simply each be listed there each with a link to its own article.) But when many of us have only limited time to contribute, I think you should not worry so much about removing other people's accurate and helpful contributions so quickly based on their inadequate sourcing or style or tangentialness. Instead put your effort into positive edits that preserve and improve way the facts are provided in those contributions. So for example, instead of just wantonly deleting the text wholesale, you could yourself insert the link to the main mindfulness article -- even delete all but that first sentence about it, as Firecalta suggested. If you had one something like that in the firs place, it would have been constructive and saved the rest of us the trouble of having to try to scramble to fix and respond to what you simply knocked down. Instead of removing it again in a tug of war, please at least do that. Just a friendly observation, I'm sure you meant well. Caroline1981 ( talk) 23:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Any information that is backed up by a reliable source and directly relevant to the article would be more than welcome! Best of luck with your courses, and I hope you enjoy the Wikipedia community. Firecatalta ( talk) 13:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not impressed with the dismissal of schema therapy, with a citation we can't follow up.
In contrast I have found two studies in support of schema focused therapy for bpd:
18 Josephine Giesen-Bloo, Richard van Dyck, Philip Spinhoven, et al., “Outpatient Psychotherapy for Borderline Personality Disorder: Randomized Trial of Schema-Focused Therapy vs. Transference-Focused Psychotherapy,” Archives of General Psychiatry 63 (2006): 649-658.
19 Antoinette D. I. van Asselt and Carmen D. Dirksen, “Outpatient Psychotherapy for Borderline Personality Disorder: Cost-Effectiveness of Schema-Focused Therapy vs. Transference-Focused Psychotherapy,” British Journal of Psychiatry 192 (2008): 450-457.
cited in:
Kreisman MD, Jerold J.; Hal Straus (2010-10-25). I Hate You--Don't Leave Me: Understanding the Borderline Personality (Kindle Locations 3847-3852). Penguin Group US. Kindle Edition.
Can someone do the honours and edit the main article plese? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.195.242 ( talk) 07:03, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
"Sometimes I Act Crazy" is a later publication by the same authors. When/if I get a chance, I will see what there view of schema focused therapy is in this publication? Or is some one else more qualified to do so?
I left comments on this page months ago that are no longer here. They were highly relevant & entirely non-offensive. I'm left with the distasteful impression that someone is scrubbing this page on a regular basis under the guise of neutrality. That's shameful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ctnelsen ( talk • contribs) 02:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Stupid mistake by me & point taken. Sorry for the interruption. Ctnelsen ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:24, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I am not a seasoned wikipedian so please forgive the errors. I have included the following paragraph to the gender section based on Paris' "Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder: A Guide to Evidence-Based Practice":
'Joel Paris argues that there are a number of reasons why men with BPD are misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. One factor, he maintains, is that male BPD patients are more inclined to self-harm via substance abuse and hence are diagnosed according to that behaviour. He also points to the greater frequency of suicide among men compared to women, and states that a considerable number of psychological postmortems in young male suicide cases indicate BPD.'
I will improve / add references asap, unless someone else feels more qualified to do so.
I believe that it is very important to indicate that some believe that it is more a case, or as much a case, of men going undiagnosed, as of women being over-diagnosed or negatively stigmatized, at least according to some of the main researchers in the field. I do not think the paragraph as it currently stands is good enough yet, but I think the content is necessary to balance the gender question, which is certainly a very important one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 15:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Surprised to see that my comments above were removed, without comment. I understand the lack of references. However it is surprises me that the Gender section is once again presented entirely in terms of over-diagnosis for women, rather than the contrary view of under-diagnosis for men, without any explanation included here. Anyway, I will get busy and get references in this weekend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 01:38, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Re above: there is also the possibility that men are misdiagnosed with ASPD rather than BPD. Of course, to some extent perhaps these are all just lines in the sand.
To summarize the above, I might suggest that some women are reluctant to accept the diagnosis of BPD because it seems to objectify them as weak according to a sexist POV, whereas men are reluctant to accept the diagnosis of BPD because there is a general reluctance to seek help, i.e. accept any sort of diagnosis whatsoever.
Unfortunately, it strikes me that the Gender section, and the corresponding section in the comments, has become coloured somewhat by wider questions regarding feminist POV and contrary POVs. (There is a specific question re: feminists arguments against diagnosis in females that this is a misapplication of feminist theory to the wider phenomenon of reluctance of patients to accept the diagnosis, but I do not want to press that point.) Firstly, some amount of POV here seems intractable, as these represent specific world views. However, I think it would be best if we worked to address the question from within the BPD literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 10:38, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
To continue from above, I have made additions to the Gender section, and shorter additions to the suicidality section re: Gender. Please do not remove or edit without providing explanation in the commentary. If there are other sources with differing statistics (particularly in later publications) please include this information etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 11:11, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
To the relevant writer or writers, I am afraid I must say I find this section a little bit hard to follow as it stands, due to the preponderance of theoretical terms. I suggest it is well worth expanding the section with one or two brief (rough) explanations re: e.g. Actual-Ought, Actual-Ideal. As it stands it is very hard to follow when not versed in self-discrepancy theory. I suggest it might be possible to give a quick "plain English" approximation of the analysis of BPD according to this theory, while still linking to the relevant theoretical pages to allow for, and encourage, a deeper understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 16:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Being sexually active is normal behaviour for an adult woman. Chastity is abnormal. It does not make any sense to say that this is rejecting the normal female role. 46.208.15.223 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree that there is a certain degree of danger of reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes by considering high sexual activity or "promiscuity" (please note scare quotes) as a criterion for such conditions as BPD and (particularly manic stage) bipolar. However, to just take the case of women for now (to simplify the argument and since this is where the questions of stigma chiefly emerge vis a vis this behaviour), I think there is enough clinical evidence and testimony available to differentiate between the cases of women enjoying a full and various sex life out of empowerment and healthy exploration, and of women forming multifarious sexual attachments due to mental phenomena such as "splitting", delusions of emotional intimacy, re-enacting sexual abuse, and so forth. In bipolar, there is plenty of clear-cut evidence (if we really have to go and dig out references we can do so...) of women reporting marked changes in their sexual behaviour during manic episodes, where they may sleep with far more people than at other times, and subsequently regret this behaviour and consider it highly uncharacteristic. With BPD, where there is not the same clear-cut chronological partition of manic / depressive / stable phases, the inclusion of "promiscuity" as a symptom/criterion is certainly more problematic. Nevertheless, I think its inclusion is valid, as a particular example of actions according to such criteria as impulsivity, emptiness, etc. This is assuming a BPD diagnosis is made in the course of an extended psychological assessment in which the psychologist and/or psychiatrist explore the motivations underlying such actions. Also, I think DSM states more than one form of impulsive behaviour should be sought to meet the impulsive criterion (e.g. "promiscuity" and shoplifting) which would be exactly in order to pinpoint the underlying impulsive tendency rather than its particular manifestation (since "promiscuity" may be either a healthy life choice or an unhealthy impulsive reflex). But basically it's fair to say, there are plenty of women who are "promiscuous" precisely because they are happy and healthy, and plenty of women who are "promiscuous" precisely because they are not.
To that extent the importance of non-judgemental practitioners is inestimable. It seems likely that in some cases a biased practitioner might infer BPD based upon sexual behaviour which is actually irrelevant to presented symptoms e.g. regarding depression, but a good doctor and/or psychologist should be able to delineate such cases - which is also why a detailed psychologist assessment is preferable to simply filling out one or two brief questionnaires.
Many wider audience publications on BPD (eg. "Sometimes I Act Crazy") include case studies giving brief biographies of BPD people. Some of these (both men and women) exhibit "promiscuous" tendencies which clearly pertain to their condition, and these might serve as useful examples as to the kind of actions and circumstances which these experts consider symptomatic of BPD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 16:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I assume the original writer of the relevant article section was referring to perceived high-level sexual activity, since this is the only rational interpretation. Being non-celibate is considered normal in adults, and hence no woman is likely to be diagnosed BPD as a consequence of this (and quite possibly never has been). Conversely, high or impulsive sexual activity ("promiscuity") is supplied in DSM-V as a criterion for BPD under Impulsivity: "4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)." I assume the original writer (having equal recourse to logic, and equally unencumbered by pedantry) meant "sexually active" in a similar sense, rather than in binary opposition to abstinence. I think such a reading is evident given the context.
I wrote to clarify the (surmountable) difficulties surrounding the inclusion of sexual impulsivity re BPD diagnosis. The point I have made it is that "promiscuity" may or may not be indicative of an underlying disorder, depending upon the wider personal context, and that this is recognized by competent mental health professionals and implicitly, at least in part, by DSM-V, in requiring two or more impulsive behaviour characteristics.
This is an important question regarding BPD, and is one of a number of wider perceived prejudices in DSM - or at least concerns that parts of DSM are open to a prejudicial interpretation. (For instance there are questions regarding DSM-V's Gender Disphoria, which, effectively, replaces DSM-IV's Gender Identity Disorder.)
I assumed your comment in this thread was referring to this serious matter, which leads to issues in clinical practice regarding both a) incorrect diagnoses of BPD, b) clients not accepting diagnosis due to a perceived prejudice. If you were simply indulging in excessive literalism then I offer my sincere apologies for wasting your time with a response that pertained to the wider BPD community rather than your own cognitive insensibility to context.
In conclusion I believe a) the original writer's sentence has the meaning I ascribed to it; b) this meaning is self-evident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 13:38, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
This article claims the suicide rate among patients with BPD is 8 to 10 percent. And it claims that 1 to 2 percent of people suffer from BPD. Multiplying the most conservative numbers of two percentages (8% of 1%) reveals that .08% of all people kill themselves because of BPD. That would be 80 in 100,000 people killing themselves just from BPD. (The high end would be 200 in 100,000) The highest suicide rate in the world is 83 per 100,000 in a year. So every single one of those is from BPD? And also every other suicide is from BPD? Something seems fishy here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Torquast ( talk • contribs) 03:36, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Nhiiix3 ( talk · contribs) added some information to the sections on the hippocampus and amygdala and I'm concerned, given that a previous edit to this article by this user was a copy-and-paste WP:COPYVIO from a website, that the information added may also a copyvio. The journal article is here but I don't have access to see the text of the article. Can someone please check to see whether the text added is ok? Thanks! -- Ca2james ( talk) 17:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Yup all copyright issues. The ref "Volume of Hippocampus" was never defined that I can see. Thanks. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The article does not say there are nine diagnostic criteria. 46.208.15.223 ( talk) 13:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
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This was added in the wrong spot and is not properly formatted. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 14:19, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Extended content
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Signs and SymptomsSymptoms include: Out-of-control emotions Unstable interpersonal relationships Concerns about abandonment Self-damaging behavior Impulsivity Frequently accompanied by depression, anxiety, or anger Also, a better definition for Borderline Personality would be: A pervasive pattern of instability or interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affect and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood. It's prevalent in about 5.9% of the general population More commonly diagnosed in females than in males. Defernandes94 ( talk) 22:50, 7 December 2014 (UTC) Defernandes94 (12/07/2014) [1] References
Text addedThis text was added "Recent research show that mindfulness-based interventions bring about an improvement in symptoms characteristic of BPD, and also lead to increases in gray matter in key areas of the brain. [1] Further, following mindfulness-based treatment, some clients no longer met a minimum of five of the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria for BPD. [1]" [7] References
I have two issues with it
Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 23:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Putting this info here for storage until we find citations for it; most of it is probably true, but we need references. Firecatalta ( talk) 03:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Family members of people with BPD often feel confused and frustrated by unclear diagnoses, ineffective treatments, and inaccurate information. Theories that post-traumatic stress disorder plays a causal role in the development of BPD [1] (see Gender and Terminology), as well as findings that a majority of people with BPD have experienced childhood trauma (see Childhood abuse), can stigmatize family members by implying that they bear primary responsibility for this disorder, despite evidence of diverse causes (see Causes). citation needed
Under "controversies" the article tends to support one side of the argument and then not the other. This makes for POV writing. Especially since I've seen writing from the other side. (Walking on Eggshells, for example.)
It needs to be balanced if it is a controversy instead of writing only one side.
Also, I caught a little overstating as well.
For example: - "The myth of violence" That's POV. Stating it's a myth makes it POV. If it's disputed, i.e. a controversy, there should be another side. For example, while describing "witch" part of BP on walking on Eggshells, Christine Anne Lawson *does* write about violence. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201109/the-world-the-borderline-mother-and-her-children
The violence also talks more on physical violence and promotes the idea that BPD people would never harm others. But there is also emotional abuse as well... and that's underplayed in the article. (Saying that harm is only to the self and never to others.)
Also underplayed in the article is the effect that BPD has on others and the difficulties family members (not just parents) and romantic partners have, blaming them for the issues and making the people with BPD, worse... which ignores the real impact that it can have on family members and again places blame through POV language. There is plenty of research to fill that section. It's kinda one-sided. It mentions that mateiral is slanted... then what is that material? Present it. If it's too long, it needs another article, be summarized not to be dropped from this one. (I saw it was edited out of earlier drafts as well, which I find just odd.)
Also, lying, I've read may be associated with the dissociation and inability to create a self identity, but this seems to be selectively cut out to say that people with BPD are thought to never lie... But where is the other side where some clinicians think they do purposefully lie?
Also deleted from the article is the difficulty on the mental health professionals dealing with BPD. Since I've seen this in Psychology Today several times, several manuals describing the disease and so on, I find this is also POV.
In another words, this article is kinda selective, while mentioning that there is a controversy, it cuts to one side and says the other side is wrong, and that breaks NPOV standards on Wikipedia.-- Hitsuji Kinno ( talk) 16:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
according to the ICD-10 "F60.3" is called "Emotionally unstable personality disorder" and not "Borderline Personality Disorder." "Borderline" is actually just a type of the Emotionally unstable personality disorder, just like "Aggressive" and "Explosive". I refer to http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F60-F69 the official WHO page. Also, in other languages, those types have their very own wikipedia article.
I propose that this article be renamed "Emotionally unstable personality disorder" with a redirect from "Borderline Personality Disorder", and also the three types (Borderline/Aggressive/Explosive) should each have their own section in the article.
(btw, this is my first suggestion on wikipedia, I am not quite sure if I have done this correctly) 98.230.133.110 ( talk)
Hi all,
We've spoken previously about nominating this article for good article status, and I think we're ready! My last question is, do we know if the same issues about copyright apply to the posting of DSM 5 criteria as they did to the DSM-IV criteria? If so, we'll want to edit those out prior to applying for GAS. Great job everyone!
Firecatalta ( talk) 02:47, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
The text about minfulness added today, [4] as it is currently written and sourced, is inappropriate for Wikipedia for a few reasons:
Given this I'm going to remove the section again, and I strongly encourage User:Breath in and out (and anyone else who's interested, obviously) to discuss the issues here and not to add the text back in its current form. Sourcing would be a good place to start - are there good, medical reliable sources for this? Cheers, Dawn Bard ( talk) 19:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Response from Caroline1981: Dawn I'm okay with Firecatalta's helpful suggestion to include only a short sentence on mindfulness with the link to the main mindfulness article. (In fact ideally instead of mindfulness being its own section there should be a section on treatments -- and mindfulness, DBT, etc should simply each be listed there each with a link to its own article.) But when many of us have only limited time to contribute, I think you should not worry so much about removing other people's accurate and helpful contributions so quickly based on their inadequate sourcing or style or tangentialness. Instead put your effort into positive edits that preserve and improve way the facts are provided in those contributions. So for example, instead of just wantonly deleting the text wholesale, you could yourself insert the link to the main mindfulness article -- even delete all but that first sentence about it, as Firecalta suggested. If you had one something like that in the firs place, it would have been constructive and saved the rest of us the trouble of having to try to scramble to fix and respond to what you simply knocked down. Instead of removing it again in a tug of war, please at least do that. Just a friendly observation, I'm sure you meant well. Caroline1981 ( talk) 23:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Any information that is backed up by a reliable source and directly relevant to the article would be more than welcome! Best of luck with your courses, and I hope you enjoy the Wikipedia community. Firecatalta ( talk) 13:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not impressed with the dismissal of schema therapy, with a citation we can't follow up.
In contrast I have found two studies in support of schema focused therapy for bpd:
18 Josephine Giesen-Bloo, Richard van Dyck, Philip Spinhoven, et al., “Outpatient Psychotherapy for Borderline Personality Disorder: Randomized Trial of Schema-Focused Therapy vs. Transference-Focused Psychotherapy,” Archives of General Psychiatry 63 (2006): 649-658.
19 Antoinette D. I. van Asselt and Carmen D. Dirksen, “Outpatient Psychotherapy for Borderline Personality Disorder: Cost-Effectiveness of Schema-Focused Therapy vs. Transference-Focused Psychotherapy,” British Journal of Psychiatry 192 (2008): 450-457.
cited in:
Kreisman MD, Jerold J.; Hal Straus (2010-10-25). I Hate You--Don't Leave Me: Understanding the Borderline Personality (Kindle Locations 3847-3852). Penguin Group US. Kindle Edition.
Can someone do the honours and edit the main article plese? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.195.242 ( talk) 07:03, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
"Sometimes I Act Crazy" is a later publication by the same authors. When/if I get a chance, I will see what there view of schema focused therapy is in this publication? Or is some one else more qualified to do so?
I left comments on this page months ago that are no longer here. They were highly relevant & entirely non-offensive. I'm left with the distasteful impression that someone is scrubbing this page on a regular basis under the guise of neutrality. That's shameful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ctnelsen ( talk • contribs) 02:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Stupid mistake by me & point taken. Sorry for the interruption. Ctnelsen ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:24, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I am not a seasoned wikipedian so please forgive the errors. I have included the following paragraph to the gender section based on Paris' "Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder: A Guide to Evidence-Based Practice":
'Joel Paris argues that there are a number of reasons why men with BPD are misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. One factor, he maintains, is that male BPD patients are more inclined to self-harm via substance abuse and hence are diagnosed according to that behaviour. He also points to the greater frequency of suicide among men compared to women, and states that a considerable number of psychological postmortems in young male suicide cases indicate BPD.'
I will improve / add references asap, unless someone else feels more qualified to do so.
I believe that it is very important to indicate that some believe that it is more a case, or as much a case, of men going undiagnosed, as of women being over-diagnosed or negatively stigmatized, at least according to some of the main researchers in the field. I do not think the paragraph as it currently stands is good enough yet, but I think the content is necessary to balance the gender question, which is certainly a very important one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 15:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Surprised to see that my comments above were removed, without comment. I understand the lack of references. However it is surprises me that the Gender section is once again presented entirely in terms of over-diagnosis for women, rather than the contrary view of under-diagnosis for men, without any explanation included here. Anyway, I will get busy and get references in this weekend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 01:38, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Re above: there is also the possibility that men are misdiagnosed with ASPD rather than BPD. Of course, to some extent perhaps these are all just lines in the sand.
To summarize the above, I might suggest that some women are reluctant to accept the diagnosis of BPD because it seems to objectify them as weak according to a sexist POV, whereas men are reluctant to accept the diagnosis of BPD because there is a general reluctance to seek help, i.e. accept any sort of diagnosis whatsoever.
Unfortunately, it strikes me that the Gender section, and the corresponding section in the comments, has become coloured somewhat by wider questions regarding feminist POV and contrary POVs. (There is a specific question re: feminists arguments against diagnosis in females that this is a misapplication of feminist theory to the wider phenomenon of reluctance of patients to accept the diagnosis, but I do not want to press that point.) Firstly, some amount of POV here seems intractable, as these represent specific world views. However, I think it would be best if we worked to address the question from within the BPD literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 10:38, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
To continue from above, I have made additions to the Gender section, and shorter additions to the suicidality section re: Gender. Please do not remove or edit without providing explanation in the commentary. If there are other sources with differing statistics (particularly in later publications) please include this information etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 11:11, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
To the relevant writer or writers, I am afraid I must say I find this section a little bit hard to follow as it stands, due to the preponderance of theoretical terms. I suggest it is well worth expanding the section with one or two brief (rough) explanations re: e.g. Actual-Ought, Actual-Ideal. As it stands it is very hard to follow when not versed in self-discrepancy theory. I suggest it might be possible to give a quick "plain English" approximation of the analysis of BPD according to this theory, while still linking to the relevant theoretical pages to allow for, and encourage, a deeper understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 16:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Being sexually active is normal behaviour for an adult woman. Chastity is abnormal. It does not make any sense to say that this is rejecting the normal female role. 46.208.15.223 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree that there is a certain degree of danger of reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes by considering high sexual activity or "promiscuity" (please note scare quotes) as a criterion for such conditions as BPD and (particularly manic stage) bipolar. However, to just take the case of women for now (to simplify the argument and since this is where the questions of stigma chiefly emerge vis a vis this behaviour), I think there is enough clinical evidence and testimony available to differentiate between the cases of women enjoying a full and various sex life out of empowerment and healthy exploration, and of women forming multifarious sexual attachments due to mental phenomena such as "splitting", delusions of emotional intimacy, re-enacting sexual abuse, and so forth. In bipolar, there is plenty of clear-cut evidence (if we really have to go and dig out references we can do so...) of women reporting marked changes in their sexual behaviour during manic episodes, where they may sleep with far more people than at other times, and subsequently regret this behaviour and consider it highly uncharacteristic. With BPD, where there is not the same clear-cut chronological partition of manic / depressive / stable phases, the inclusion of "promiscuity" as a symptom/criterion is certainly more problematic. Nevertheless, I think its inclusion is valid, as a particular example of actions according to such criteria as impulsivity, emptiness, etc. This is assuming a BPD diagnosis is made in the course of an extended psychological assessment in which the psychologist and/or psychiatrist explore the motivations underlying such actions. Also, I think DSM states more than one form of impulsive behaviour should be sought to meet the impulsive criterion (e.g. "promiscuity" and shoplifting) which would be exactly in order to pinpoint the underlying impulsive tendency rather than its particular manifestation (since "promiscuity" may be either a healthy life choice or an unhealthy impulsive reflex). But basically it's fair to say, there are plenty of women who are "promiscuous" precisely because they are happy and healthy, and plenty of women who are "promiscuous" precisely because they are not.
To that extent the importance of non-judgemental practitioners is inestimable. It seems likely that in some cases a biased practitioner might infer BPD based upon sexual behaviour which is actually irrelevant to presented symptoms e.g. regarding depression, but a good doctor and/or psychologist should be able to delineate such cases - which is also why a detailed psychologist assessment is preferable to simply filling out one or two brief questionnaires.
Many wider audience publications on BPD (eg. "Sometimes I Act Crazy") include case studies giving brief biographies of BPD people. Some of these (both men and women) exhibit "promiscuous" tendencies which clearly pertain to their condition, and these might serve as useful examples as to the kind of actions and circumstances which these experts consider symptomatic of BPD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 16:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I assume the original writer of the relevant article section was referring to perceived high-level sexual activity, since this is the only rational interpretation. Being non-celibate is considered normal in adults, and hence no woman is likely to be diagnosed BPD as a consequence of this (and quite possibly never has been). Conversely, high or impulsive sexual activity ("promiscuity") is supplied in DSM-V as a criterion for BPD under Impulsivity: "4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)." I assume the original writer (having equal recourse to logic, and equally unencumbered by pedantry) meant "sexually active" in a similar sense, rather than in binary opposition to abstinence. I think such a reading is evident given the context.
I wrote to clarify the (surmountable) difficulties surrounding the inclusion of sexual impulsivity re BPD diagnosis. The point I have made it is that "promiscuity" may or may not be indicative of an underlying disorder, depending upon the wider personal context, and that this is recognized by competent mental health professionals and implicitly, at least in part, by DSM-V, in requiring two or more impulsive behaviour characteristics.
This is an important question regarding BPD, and is one of a number of wider perceived prejudices in DSM - or at least concerns that parts of DSM are open to a prejudicial interpretation. (For instance there are questions regarding DSM-V's Gender Disphoria, which, effectively, replaces DSM-IV's Gender Identity Disorder.)
I assumed your comment in this thread was referring to this serious matter, which leads to issues in clinical practice regarding both a) incorrect diagnoses of BPD, b) clients not accepting diagnosis due to a perceived prejudice. If you were simply indulging in excessive literalism then I offer my sincere apologies for wasting your time with a response that pertained to the wider BPD community rather than your own cognitive insensibility to context.
In conclusion I believe a) the original writer's sentence has the meaning I ascribed to it; b) this meaning is self-evident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 ( talk) 13:38, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
This article claims the suicide rate among patients with BPD is 8 to 10 percent. And it claims that 1 to 2 percent of people suffer from BPD. Multiplying the most conservative numbers of two percentages (8% of 1%) reveals that .08% of all people kill themselves because of BPD. That would be 80 in 100,000 people killing themselves just from BPD. (The high end would be 200 in 100,000) The highest suicide rate in the world is 83 per 100,000 in a year. So every single one of those is from BPD? And also every other suicide is from BPD? Something seems fishy here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Torquast ( talk • contribs) 03:36, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Nhiiix3 ( talk · contribs) added some information to the sections on the hippocampus and amygdala and I'm concerned, given that a previous edit to this article by this user was a copy-and-paste WP:COPYVIO from a website, that the information added may also a copyvio. The journal article is here but I don't have access to see the text of the article. Can someone please check to see whether the text added is ok? Thanks! -- Ca2james ( talk) 17:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Yup all copyright issues. The ref "Volume of Hippocampus" was never defined that I can see. Thanks. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The article does not say there are nine diagnostic criteria. 46.208.15.223 ( talk) 13:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
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This was added in the wrong spot and is not properly formatted. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 14:19, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
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Signs and SymptomsSymptoms include: Out-of-control emotions Unstable interpersonal relationships Concerns about abandonment Self-damaging behavior Impulsivity Frequently accompanied by depression, anxiety, or anger Also, a better definition for Borderline Personality would be: A pervasive pattern of instability or interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affect and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood. It's prevalent in about 5.9% of the general population More commonly diagnosed in females than in males. Defernandes94 ( talk) 22:50, 7 December 2014 (UTC) Defernandes94 (12/07/2014) [1] References
Text addedThis text was added "Recent research show that mindfulness-based interventions bring about an improvement in symptoms characteristic of BPD, and also lead to increases in gray matter in key areas of the brain. [1] Further, following mindfulness-based treatment, some clients no longer met a minimum of five of the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria for BPD. [1]" [7] References
I have two issues with it
Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 23:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
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