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Does anyone know if EMDR has been successful for patients with BPD? It might be important to discuss if so.
The movie list is ridiculous and false in many instances. Girl, Interrupted is fine because it is actually a memoir about a woman who is diagnosed with the disorder. Borderline and Bad timing as well, but Single White Female? The Crush? These are weird opinions of someone who knows little about fiction writing and less about mental illness. There is never any mention of BPD in many of these movies. It's, at best, an unfounded opinion, at worst simple mis-education. People come to this site to learn about something. -- jenlight 22:04, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Mjformica 11:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Just because a movie does not specifically cite that it is about BPD does not mean that the behaviors displayed within the movie are not accurate to portray the disorder. The main character in Mommy Dearest was known to have BPD; however the movie never mentions this. Does this mean that the movie can not be cited as an example for those wishing to understand the disorder?
I've seen at least three different Abnormal Psychology textbooks that cite Fatal Attraction as being a film example of Borderline Personality Disorder. In one of the clinics I worked at, we even had trained and licensed people who referred to any patient with BPD coming in as "A Fatal Attraction. I think it should be added back to the list. The fact that they don't talk about it in the movie is moot. American Psycho doesn't explicitly mention Antisocial Personality Disorder, but I've seen plenty of books and textbooks that cite it as a good example. Dlmccaslin 03:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
As a person who has BPD, I cant assure you that we dont boil or would ever harm any animal. I think the fatal attraction comparison is awful and disgusting. insulting. the one in girl interrupted is more accurate. and if they specifically dont say that glenn close's character has BDP, then I think the movie should not be cited. Most people with BDP LOVE animals and would never ever hurt them. They are a source of unconditional love, and they wont abandon you. The two things that people with BDP worry about the most. Also, it sounds like Glenn Close's character, IF she had BDP must have also had Antisocial personality disorder, if she hurt the animals. Comorbid disorders can not be used to represent one disorder only. olayak
I have removed the following passage, because it is inaccurate.
Unfortunatly, the biggest problem with BPD is that it is in fact on the border between mental illness (psychosis) and personality disorder (neurosis). This causes a problem, because the treatment to neurosis and psychosis is diffrent. While psychosis often demands hospitalisation, BPD will often prefer suicide over hospitalisation. And therefore this is impossible.
The idea that BPD is on the 'border' between psychosis and neurosis is an old one which has been discredited. As is pointed out in the article's opening paragraph, this idea has been superseded by the theory that BPD is primarily a disorder of emotion regulation. Look at the diagnostic criteria: criterion 9 says that a BPD sufferer may experience transient paranoid or dissociative symptoms during periods of stress, etc; but that's as close as the criteria get to saying anything at all about psychosis.
R Lowry 14:20, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
The outline and most of the text for this article seems to be lifted pretty directly from the NIMH site. I'm a new wikipedia user -- is that typical? http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bpd.cfm 19:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The NIMH article is in the public domain, and may be freely used. A citation is included at the bottom of this Wikipedia article. R Lowry 23:02, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
From where does the "2 percent of all adults" figure come? Personality disorders are notoriously underdiagnosed (given their lack of response to medication), so I'm skeptical of a clear figure like this, especially without a direct citation. siafu 23:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Could someone with more knowledge of BPD than I have a look at the nonBP article? I gave it a general copyedit and wikification, but the article seems quite POV, and almost seems to say that carers of BPD sufferers do not have a rational view of the world. The majority of the content was added in November 2003 by an anonymous contributor, and it has only received copyediting and wikification since then. Graham/pianoman87 talk 12:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Someone suggested merging the aforementioned article into this one. I think it's a good idea, since the article mainly consists of some diagnostic criteria, and the rest of this article applies also to those. If there's a poll, I hope someone will notify me on my talk page and possibly user page. Rōnin 03:49, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't merge, or undo merge, as it seems to have been done already. BPD corresponds to EUPD/borderline type (ICD F 60.31). Do not merge non-BP into this article, because there is a lot more to say about the borderline disorder, there are different presumable causes also a short summary about complex PTSD needs to be added (but keeping the main article on Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (C-PTSD) separate]]. Add short summary of non-BP article here and leave the bulk of the text on that score in separate article. As of yet, the non-BP article has info only from a popular self-help-book (Stop walking on eggshells), which would not match the more clinical info in this article. If there is more to add from a clinical point of view, I am looking forward to reading that.-- Fenice 20:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know under what answer to place this; But i would say: Don't merge.
As someone said, none so far are psychologists or have any professional experience within the field. Neither am i. But i have been diagnosed with first Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder, and later BPD. And even though the difference is subtle, there is a difference. So i would rather have more info on the general Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder and link to more spesific under categories like BPD.
Mriswith 21:25, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The current section on nonBPs seems perhaps a little POV. Rōnin 04:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
An anonymous user/editor used BPDx -- that stands for BP diagnosis, not disorder, as s/he intended (by context). The universally accepted abbreviation for disorder is D/O -- if we are going to use abbreviations (which I don't think we should be using) we should get 'em right. Mjformica 16:43, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
aside from the cursory mention it gets in some highly quoted documents (including diagnostic manuals), there is no actual proof or evidence that gender identity problems have anything to do with borderline personality disorder. this contributes to the widespread alienation, enforced invisibity, and villification of transgendered people who become involved with the mental health care system. i am deleting references to gender identity now, except in the case of quoted diagnostic criteria that should include details showing that there is no clinical evidence for the connection (someone please work on this). reverting to include gender identity should be provided with actual proof and verifiable experience (e.g. as with unbiased comprehensive studies), rather than cursory unexplained mention. thank you.
I think this article should include a discussion of the misuse of the BPD diagnosis. It is not uncommon to see people who are difficult, demanding, manipulative and/or unpleasant labelled by clinicians (especially non-physicians/psychologists) as BPD. While people with BPD can be all of these things, those are not the diagnostic criteria. Men who exhibit the same behaviors get labelled ASPD. People who are in the early stages of dementia, are cognitively challenged, and/or head injured show up in emergency rooms because they are emotionally out of control or have attempted suicide or are self-mutilating and the staff just assumes its another BPD patient. Also might be helpful to have some discussion about the fact that many folks age out of BPD -- they may still have distress and problematic behavior, but they no longer meet the criteria -- which argues that it's NOT actually a personality disorder but something else. JenniSue 23:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Trying to be bold, I made the following edits: Deleted the links to movies that don't specifically reference BPD (not sure about Bad Timing, so I left it for now); deleted a link to DBT that no longer worked; removed "manipulativeness" from the list of impulsive behaviors (I'm not disagreeing manipulativeness is a symptom of BPD; I disagree that manipulation is impulsive behavior); and cleaned up the NonBP section to indicate that the experience of a relationship with someone who has BPD is universally negative/requires therapy or extraordinary support. While this may be a common (or commonly discussed, which is different) experience, I do not believe it can be verified as universal. Also added specifics of extreme behavior (but did not include pet boiling :) ) JenniSue 02:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Dense, but informative. I added a sentence. Just take it out if you think it's no good. My 2 cents worth. But clinging to people "smothers" them; and the more you worry and mettle with things and ask "what's the matter", the worse it gets. It's the very desperation and needyness in these people that others sense, and often drives the others away. Then they are alone again, and know/feel like they smothered the relationship, and regardless of fault they blame themselves and feel more bad...take it as proof of their unworthiness (even if that's not reasonalble)... Making it harder to generate the self-esteem needed to make a relationship work and get the social support structure set up. It's a cycle. -- Shadow Puppet 22:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I have taken the day to clean up the article in the hope that it will make a great Feature Article.
I have added footnotes and citations and changed to layout to slim down the lead in at the top.
If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate it. Billyjoekoepsel 01:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi, would like to offer some impressions.
I realise the article will to some extent reflect psychiatric diagnostic practice which is focused only on clinically-relevant problems. But it also needs to give the wider picture of those individuals being categorised by this diagnosis. And it doesn't seem to come through enough that most of the people being described as having this disorder are people who have been abused and traumatized by others (cf statistics on childhood abuse) and are vulnerable sensitive people (i.e. not just self-harming dysfunctional manipulators) struggling to manage their boundaries, to come to terms with their experiences and emotions, and to feel safe with others.
I think the bias of the article is also given away by the references to those diagnosable with BPD as 'patients' even when not talking in the context of hospital care etc.
I realise the mentions of DSM are hyperlinked to a fuller explanation of the manual and its source, but I feel it should be mentioned alongside it in the article that this is an american and psychiatric publication.
Terms like (low or high functioning) 'Borderlines' appear to be an invalid and potentially offensive application of a specific diagnostic term referring to a mental state. That whole paragraph seems POV or based on unacknowledged psychoanalytic theory.
"people with BPD actually suffer from what has come to be called emotional dysregulation". This is just one theory.
"difficulty in functioning in a socially acceptable manner" - I view this as a judgemental statement. Accepted by some in their society might give a better sense of the relativity, but this isn't a criterion anyway.
Franzio 11:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I could have been clearer. I was really referring to the use of the term 'Borderlines'. It's jargon and misuse of a technical term - similar usages that many take offence to these days is referring to 'Schizophrenics' or 'Depressives'. Although I would also argue that if informal functional criteria are being applied, it should be specified what these are (especially when taking a simplified continuous measure of functioning and breaking it into two even more simplistic categories of low and high). 'Low Functioning Borderlines' sounds like the sort of phrase you'd find in a Nazi eugenics guide, to be honest.
My point about the use of the term 'patients' was its use more than once in a the context that had nothing to do with service use. I.E. we are talking about people here, but clearly some only think about them as clinical entities. I will change them but I was also using it to try and demonstrate the apparent biased focus of the article (but as I say I can understand it to some extent because it's following a psychiatric term).
'Socially acceptable' is a phrase with a common pejorative usage, and implies a universal unacceptability. It's the difference between saying I don't personally like something versus describing something as inherently unlikeable. It is more accurate and balanced to indicate that others in the person's society (other societies might not have such a problem) often do not understand or accept some of the behaviors of those diagnosable with BPD. Franzio
I don't think calling people Borderlines or Depressives is as widely professionally acceptable as you suggest, and seems to be becoming less so. And wikipedia articles aren't just for professionals. But yes my point was that people shouldn't be referred to as patients or clients when talking generally, and we seem to agree about the neutrality issue. When referring to a diagnosis, I think 'with a diagnosis of' or 'diagnosable with' would be better and more accepted than suffering from.
Just to clarify, I'm not positing a single position, left over or otherwise, I'm trying to reasonably address issues that seem relevant. Franzio 13:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
OK I'll probably get stick for this but I've made a few edits throughout the article reflecting the above points. I've removed the 'failure to function consistently in a socially acceptable manner' - as I understand it this is not a recognised criterion nor an established fact so why is it there? And also removed the clearly biased/advertising references to NIMH (presumably due to the page originating from them).
I've also removed the following entire paragraph, for which there appears no factual support and much of which is, imho, clearly offensive and stigmitising.
"Borderlines can be divided into high and low functioning categories. Low functioning borderlines exhibit the well-known patterns of self-mutilation, dipsomania, drug abuse and so forth. High functioning bordelines are often perceived as being extremely charming and even exotic. High-functioning borderline women have a special power to captivate men, even when these women are not particularly good looking, because of their ability to mimic the behavior and interests of the man. citation needed High-functioning borderlines pay a steep price for bending themselves to the personalities of their mates. Tension within the borderline rises and breaks out in what appears a childish and unprovoked affirmation of the borderline's true personality. To reestablish her sense of self the borderline then begins to devalue her mate and developes grandiose ideas of her capabilities. Female borderlines often feel they have a mystical mission in the world and it has been speculated that oracles in the ancient world may have been drawn from borderlines. citation needed"
Franzio 15:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The above paragraph has now been reinserted as accurate "now that citations have been found". The single link added at the bottom is to this transcript of a radio interview:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/mind/stories/s1244802.htm. Please could it be specified how this substantiates the above paragraph, in terms of the nature of the source, and why those points amongst the huge number of claims made amidst the play and book promotion.
"Glenn Close’s chillingly accurate portrayal of the borderline personality" - How disappointing that the professionals on this programme did not challenge this pathetic and harmful statement by the presenter. Unless I've missed the work on BPD and kidnapping children, boiling pet rabbits and attempted murder. Franzio 09:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps to try and make this less polarized, I could suggest it is as much the wording of that paragraph as some of what it is trying to get across. I don't wish to deny that some of it may partially relate to some accepted evidence applicable to some of the many varied and individual people meeting criteria for BPD at some time (usually young women, following abuse or trauma during childhood).
'Individuals meeting criteria for BPD vary in the level at which they are perceived to function socially or occupationally. High functioning may involve greater than usual willingness and ability to adapt to others, in order to achieve acceptance, intimacy or perceived safety. This often appears unsustainable, however, such that stress and emotional turmoil may increase to a point that some or all involved cannot manage or do not accept, and the relationship may end. The individual with a diagnosis of BPD may no longer see the other person in the previously idealised way, and may affirm their own value and worth."
I'm not trying to say this is perfect or necessarily supported by proper citations or whatever, but trying to be clear about what I'm objecting to. I don't think Wikipedia should be making sweeping statements demeaning millions of people as that original paragraph does. Franzio 09:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I just want to say I have no desire to paint over, just to defend against what I feel would seem more like prejudice in other settings, as someone else now seems to have done below. To Sadhaka's comments above, which were posted after my text after it, I would just say that of course I don't dispute that incidents like this occur in relation to BPD, but personally selected case study anecdotes aren't a good foundation for labels and stereotypes, which if to be used at all (rather than only mentioned as a usage by some) surely require comprehensive balanced statistics, and research properly addressing the parties involved, the personal and social context, and distinguishing causes and correlates. Franzio 13:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Borderlines can be divided into high and low functioning categories.
Low functioning borderlines exhibit the well-know patterns of self-mutilation, dipsomania, drug abuse and so forth.
High functioning bordelines are often perceived as being extremely charming and even exotic.
High-functioning borderline women have a special power to captivate men, even when these women are not particularly good looking, because of their ability to mimic the behavior and interests of the man.
High-functioning borderlines pay a steep price for bending themselves to the personalities of their mates. Tension within the borderline rises and breaks out in what appears a childish and unprovoked affirmation of the borderline's true personality. To reestablish her sense of self the borderline then begins to devalue her mate and developes grandiose ideas of her capabilities. Female borderlines often feel they have a mystical mission in the world and it has been speculated that oracles in the ancient world may have been drawn from borderlines.
C'mon, you guys...there isn't even a conversation here, other than the one you'd have with a monsterously self-important, and intellectually over-compensatory college sophomore over one too many beers during finals week.
There is a considerable amount of anecdotally referential, grossly generalized, and, in some cases, downright implausible positionality and misinformation in this article. That is my POV. We're a bunch of smart folks. I suspect we can do better all the way around. Cheers! -- Sadhaka 18:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC) Talk to me
Ok, I'll step back and let you hack at it. Alienus 20:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, we have two options. We could continue to play hot potato and nothing will change. Or we could work together in here to figure out what that part of the article would look like. I suggest the latter.
I noticed that you included the following comment: "This is not a perception, but a consistent character profile." Ok, fair enough. How exactly would you characterize this aspect of the BP character profile (without devolving "into POV, sexist, and just plain chauvanistic locker room BS"? Alienus 18:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Now that's a lot of good stuff to work from! Here's a quick first draft of what may wind up as a replacement for the disputed paragraph:
It's a bit overwritten, and I have to be careful not to repeat material already covered in this section. Also, keep in mind that, regardless of any research on my part, my own exposure to BP is second-hand and limited to non-clinical interactions, so if I'm saying anything that's misleading or just plain wrong, please don't hestitate to correct me. Alienus 22:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Personally I feel that revised paragraph is going in the right direction. I still feel it prioritises the perspective and hurt of others over those of the person with BPD, perhaps, and some statements are still too sweeping or extreme, when they probably only apply to a proportion or only apply to some extent or in some areas at some times. I don't have specific amendments just now but wanted to support this aim. Franzio 10:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Alienus, I've gone ahead and made some edits to it, was struggling to elucidate exactly what I meant otherwise. They're just my suggestions to be changed or edited again or whatever. Franzio 10:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the bit about childishly snapping due to tension from reflecting someone else, that sounds like speculation. Also I can't believe that 'true personality' is a concept in psychology rather than a bitchy comment. CalG 14:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
OK apologies in advance if anyone feels I've jumped the gun on this, but I've replaced the original paragraph with the one we discussed above, with some very minor amendments. Seems to make sense to edit it there rather than here. The only thing is that it now appears to repeat quite a lot of what is already in the article just above it, so I guess they need merging Franzio 19:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, sorry again if I did jump the gun, and really I just thought might as well edit it within the page rather than here. I would say again that I do'nt believe in watering down, if things are the case then they are the case, but I did want to work on the balance and focus, and I don't personally disagree with any of what you've just said. Franzio 16:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC) (escept for possibly the use of phrase 'the borderline' but each to their own)
I have just merged the NonBP article. This was discussed before Christmas and no objections were raised. "NonBP" is contentious, agenda driven, as POV as it gets and not-terribly-scientific original research. To borrow from Sadhaka "anecdotally referential, grossly generalized, and, in some cases, downright implausible positionality and misinformation" seems to cover it well!
However NonBP exists, it isn't going away yet, but an article of it's own is far too POV for Wikipedia, so the solution seems to be to merge it here.
It's late, I'm tired, I just merged the existing text for now, and deleted a duplicate link, I don't necessarily like the existing text very much and certainly intend to tweak it over the weekend, and hope others will too -- Zeraeph 00:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
But don't you think you need valid information, not wildy inaccurate, agenda driven, PR hype? -- Zeraeph 00:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not even pretending to help here, but I'll offer that of all the support groups for psychosis or neurosis that I've Fight Club tourist leeched my way around, nonBPs are by far the most obnoxious, whiney, needy, emotionally abject, simpleminded trollable bastards of the lot. I'm pretty sure they're ill. Okay, carry on. CalG 02:34, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I should point out WHY I like the section as it stands?
"NonBP", as it currently exists, as an agenda, has about as much credibility with me as the KKK, for remarkably similar reasons. Scratch the surface and there is a lot of bigotry, incitement to hatred and "masterplans for the destruction of real human beings".
I think one of the parts I find most shocking is that the NonBP agenda cunningly twists matters so the BPD (which is most frequently caused by abuse) becomes synonymous with factitious abuse claims. That is a truly cruel artificially created "catch 22" for the abused.
The bottom line, however, is exploitation, NOT of Borderlines (they are, apparently, just objects to be demonised and abused), but of the partners of Borderlines.
For WHATEVER reason (and it's not likely to be 100% healthy) these are drawn from people who are in distress due to their relationship with someone they perceive to have BPD (because they are actively encouraged to self diagnose their partners). Now that distress could have anything in a whole spectrum of origins from "Not getting their own way and WANTING IT BAD" to "being in partial denial that their partner is a stone psychopath", and every shade in between. The NonBP agenda aims to please, and exploit 'em all.
No matter how true, or how much we can prove, we cannot say that on Wikipedia. It's original research. We can't pretend NonBP doesn't exist, because people come looking for it and if they don't find it, sooner or later, set up a seperate article giving it EVEN MORE credibility.
Seems to me, what Sadhaka has done is actually very clever. He has described the only aspect of NonBP that has any valid existance and then gone on to relate it to co-dependency in general. He has give good, solid, objective information for all those "NonBPs" who are in the innocent middle range ie, averagely screwed up people (just like you, me and the dog), who are trying to find a little help and understanding of the difficulties in their particular relationship.
If they listen to Sadhaka, they are going to be just a LITTLE less likely to be drawn into the NonBP agenda, and a LITTLE more likely to be receptive to common sense. That has to be a good thing, and IMHO it's the best you can do whilst retaining objectivity-- Zeraeph 11:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It's only OR if it's unpublished. Alienus 15:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Another relatively recent and exciting development is a variation on Jeffrey Young's 'Schema Therapy', entitled 'Mode Therapy'. Details can be obtained from his book.
If this is notable, it might help to briefly explain what kind of therapy this is. -- 65.25.217.79 20:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't there information on how BPD seems to correlate with the typical "wifebeater" type, complete with paranoid jealousy, being a control freak and abusing the hell out of the rest of the family? It's often the same thing, especially with male sufferers and is mentioned in various sources. I'd hate it if this aspect was completely ignored.-- Snowgrouse 21:39, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Some researchers have called antisocial personality the (often male) flipside of borderline Cas Liber 11:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, a risk factor is what predates a condition. eg. A risk factor for cancer is smoking etc. Under the heading on the page should be something predisposing to BPD, not the other way around. The section under the heading should be under something like 'Adverse Outcomes' or 'Risks of BPD' or 'BPD and Suicide' or something. Some folk have put alot of wokr into the page so I didn't want to hop in and change stuff :) Cas Liber 12:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
If 2% of adults have BPD and 8-10% of those commit suicide, that means the cause of death for 0.2% of American adults is suicide resulting from BPD. This is absurd. See here for WHO's suicide rates in the population. -- 68.100.254.244 18:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
At present I'm writing a novel with a central character who has BPD. While not claiming to be an expert on the subject, I'd like to contribute to this discussion, albeit after I've entered the final stages of my story.
Geelin Geelin 02:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Good luck Cas Liber 04:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Yep, it's about a hermit who also has BPD. He's bordered himself up in his house because he's been so scarred and hurt by the rejection of others; the pain of others' has led him to live entirely alone, and yet he still strongly craves relationships. I'm interested in investigating the histrionic/antisocial/borderline/narcissistic overlap :) Geelin 13:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the history an anon has added the NPOV tag. Can I ask why? For the time being I have removed it until an explanation can be given. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Victims of this disorder may be very intelligent, loving people with strong personalities in terms of holding opinions and defending their ideas, but their self-image is damaged and they seek fulfilment sometimes in very bad environments.
At least a few were thankfully removed:
The death of a victim of BPD (most often a young person) by their own hand due to inadequate diagnosis and care is a tragedy of incomprehensible proportions 209.169.114.213
Apparently, there is a one-day seminar on BPD at the uni of Sydney on December 2. The cost is $125, including food.
To find out more, go to this website: [1]
Cheers, Geelin 02:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. Looked at the outline. May be a fair starting point. Not usre about the 'most common personality disorder' bit in the blurb that goes with it, certainly the most common one which turns up in mental health but that is because of associated behaviours. Cas Liber 02:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The editor (69.183.55.120) gave no reference to check the veracity of his claim that this material is protected by copyright. Since that section was the work of several people who have contributed here on Wikipedia, it is quite unlikely that one person holds the copyright to the material. It appears that the only edit the IP has ever made on Wikipedia is the removal of the NonBP section so I'm claiming that it was vandalism and replacing it. I haven't reverted any subsequent changes to the article. gargoyle888 02:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
...then they would know it...wouldn't they?
Except, unfortunately, you are WRONG about this, because by making the contribution, the original author agrees to licence under GFDL (as you will see when you go to make incensed reply...just under bottom right of reply box) thus [2]. In plain speech, when you posted it here, you signed away the copyright. If you object you can sort it out here WP:CP -- Zeraeph 13:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Curious thing though, as far as he actually claimed at the time, he wrote the Wikipedia stuff just for this article originally, which he THEN seems to have added to a book, which isn't published yet...no IDEA where THAT leaves the copyright, I don't think there IS such a thing as "retrospective copyright"?
Actually Sadhaka is one of the best Psych editors ever, but sometimes, on a more human level, he doesn't quite manage to sustain the same high standard. Between the lines I'd say there is some online psych politic involved. Might be an idea to reword it to save trouble? -- Zeraeph 21:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone verify that the named people in the "Famous Borderline Personalities" section in the article are, in fact, so ? I put in Susanna Kaysen, the author of Girl, Interrupted because that is the defining aspect and controversy of her book. But the others I am not sure of at all, having not put them in. Some I checked, like Livia Soprano and Glen Close's character in Fatal Attraction seemed valid. But I have no easy way of knowing about the others. Except drilling down bio databases and hoping they are accurate. Shouldn't it be limited to people who have declared their BPD ? Should they be kept in the article until verified ? Thanks. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 18:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I boldly removed this entire section. I think it's reckless and inappropriate to mention people who may exhibit borderline traits. -- 70.127.140.156 02:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. Interesting. Is there anything, in principle, plausibly wrong with having at least the fictional characters from movies, etc. It might help people understand the type. Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 14:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC) ( User talk:Wikiklrsc)
Also, confer BPD resources about famous people and movie characters: [3] ... and notice the 2001 book: "Living in the Dead Zone: Janis Joplin and Jim Morrison: Understanding Borderline Personality Disorders" by Gerald A. Faris, Ralph M. Faris. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 20:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Excellent points, Geelin. Thanks. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 13:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC) ( User talk:Wikiklrsc)
Again, excellent find, Geelin ! Now we just have to do the work. Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 12:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC) ( User talk:Wikiklrsc}
I was watching the movie Downfall last night, about the last 10 days of Adolf Hitler's life. It occured to me that Eva Braun, Hitler's wife, was a Borderline. Geelin 12:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Livia Soprano seems to have narcissistic personality disorder, NOT borderline. just because a tv show misrepresents a disorder doesnt mean that wikipedia should condone it. olayak
I totally support having a list of famous people with BPD if they can be verified. (suzanna kaysen, for one.) maybe there should be another list of celebrities who are only suspected of having BPD. I, as someone who has BPD, am seriously offended every time fatal attraction comes up because she clearly has antisocial personality disorder, whether or not she also has BPD. People with BPD are most likely to take their anxiety out on themselves (cutting, anorexia/bulemia, substance abuse) and are highly unlikely to physically harm anyone else. Also BPDs are very sympathetic to animals because of the unconditional love that they recieve from animals and that they dont recieve from people. animals dont abandon them. So BPDs are highly highly unlikely to harm any animal. I realize that she does have BPD, but she also has something else seriously wrong with her. There are many articles out there about the misrepresentation of BPD in Fatal Attraction. I will post one soon. olayak
Marilyn Monroe was "borderline" and Ibolya Oláh is "borderline" I think! -- TransylvanianKarl 12:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Does anyone know if EMDR has been successful for patients with BPD? It might be important to discuss if so.
The movie list is ridiculous and false in many instances. Girl, Interrupted is fine because it is actually a memoir about a woman who is diagnosed with the disorder. Borderline and Bad timing as well, but Single White Female? The Crush? These are weird opinions of someone who knows little about fiction writing and less about mental illness. There is never any mention of BPD in many of these movies. It's, at best, an unfounded opinion, at worst simple mis-education. People come to this site to learn about something. -- jenlight 22:04, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Mjformica 11:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Just because a movie does not specifically cite that it is about BPD does not mean that the behaviors displayed within the movie are not accurate to portray the disorder. The main character in Mommy Dearest was known to have BPD; however the movie never mentions this. Does this mean that the movie can not be cited as an example for those wishing to understand the disorder?
I've seen at least three different Abnormal Psychology textbooks that cite Fatal Attraction as being a film example of Borderline Personality Disorder. In one of the clinics I worked at, we even had trained and licensed people who referred to any patient with BPD coming in as "A Fatal Attraction. I think it should be added back to the list. The fact that they don't talk about it in the movie is moot. American Psycho doesn't explicitly mention Antisocial Personality Disorder, but I've seen plenty of books and textbooks that cite it as a good example. Dlmccaslin 03:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
As a person who has BPD, I cant assure you that we dont boil or would ever harm any animal. I think the fatal attraction comparison is awful and disgusting. insulting. the one in girl interrupted is more accurate. and if they specifically dont say that glenn close's character has BDP, then I think the movie should not be cited. Most people with BDP LOVE animals and would never ever hurt them. They are a source of unconditional love, and they wont abandon you. The two things that people with BDP worry about the most. Also, it sounds like Glenn Close's character, IF she had BDP must have also had Antisocial personality disorder, if she hurt the animals. Comorbid disorders can not be used to represent one disorder only. olayak
I have removed the following passage, because it is inaccurate.
Unfortunatly, the biggest problem with BPD is that it is in fact on the border between mental illness (psychosis) and personality disorder (neurosis). This causes a problem, because the treatment to neurosis and psychosis is diffrent. While psychosis often demands hospitalisation, BPD will often prefer suicide over hospitalisation. And therefore this is impossible.
The idea that BPD is on the 'border' between psychosis and neurosis is an old one which has been discredited. As is pointed out in the article's opening paragraph, this idea has been superseded by the theory that BPD is primarily a disorder of emotion regulation. Look at the diagnostic criteria: criterion 9 says that a BPD sufferer may experience transient paranoid or dissociative symptoms during periods of stress, etc; but that's as close as the criteria get to saying anything at all about psychosis.
R Lowry 14:20, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
The outline and most of the text for this article seems to be lifted pretty directly from the NIMH site. I'm a new wikipedia user -- is that typical? http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bpd.cfm 19:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The NIMH article is in the public domain, and may be freely used. A citation is included at the bottom of this Wikipedia article. R Lowry 23:02, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
From where does the "2 percent of all adults" figure come? Personality disorders are notoriously underdiagnosed (given their lack of response to medication), so I'm skeptical of a clear figure like this, especially without a direct citation. siafu 23:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Could someone with more knowledge of BPD than I have a look at the nonBP article? I gave it a general copyedit and wikification, but the article seems quite POV, and almost seems to say that carers of BPD sufferers do not have a rational view of the world. The majority of the content was added in November 2003 by an anonymous contributor, and it has only received copyediting and wikification since then. Graham/pianoman87 talk 12:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Someone suggested merging the aforementioned article into this one. I think it's a good idea, since the article mainly consists of some diagnostic criteria, and the rest of this article applies also to those. If there's a poll, I hope someone will notify me on my talk page and possibly user page. Rōnin 03:49, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't merge, or undo merge, as it seems to have been done already. BPD corresponds to EUPD/borderline type (ICD F 60.31). Do not merge non-BP into this article, because there is a lot more to say about the borderline disorder, there are different presumable causes also a short summary about complex PTSD needs to be added (but keeping the main article on Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (C-PTSD) separate]]. Add short summary of non-BP article here and leave the bulk of the text on that score in separate article. As of yet, the non-BP article has info only from a popular self-help-book (Stop walking on eggshells), which would not match the more clinical info in this article. If there is more to add from a clinical point of view, I am looking forward to reading that.-- Fenice 20:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know under what answer to place this; But i would say: Don't merge.
As someone said, none so far are psychologists or have any professional experience within the field. Neither am i. But i have been diagnosed with first Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder, and later BPD. And even though the difference is subtle, there is a difference. So i would rather have more info on the general Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder and link to more spesific under categories like BPD.
Mriswith 21:25, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The current section on nonBPs seems perhaps a little POV. Rōnin 04:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
An anonymous user/editor used BPDx -- that stands for BP diagnosis, not disorder, as s/he intended (by context). The universally accepted abbreviation for disorder is D/O -- if we are going to use abbreviations (which I don't think we should be using) we should get 'em right. Mjformica 16:43, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
aside from the cursory mention it gets in some highly quoted documents (including diagnostic manuals), there is no actual proof or evidence that gender identity problems have anything to do with borderline personality disorder. this contributes to the widespread alienation, enforced invisibity, and villification of transgendered people who become involved with the mental health care system. i am deleting references to gender identity now, except in the case of quoted diagnostic criteria that should include details showing that there is no clinical evidence for the connection (someone please work on this). reverting to include gender identity should be provided with actual proof and verifiable experience (e.g. as with unbiased comprehensive studies), rather than cursory unexplained mention. thank you.
I think this article should include a discussion of the misuse of the BPD diagnosis. It is not uncommon to see people who are difficult, demanding, manipulative and/or unpleasant labelled by clinicians (especially non-physicians/psychologists) as BPD. While people with BPD can be all of these things, those are not the diagnostic criteria. Men who exhibit the same behaviors get labelled ASPD. People who are in the early stages of dementia, are cognitively challenged, and/or head injured show up in emergency rooms because they are emotionally out of control or have attempted suicide or are self-mutilating and the staff just assumes its another BPD patient. Also might be helpful to have some discussion about the fact that many folks age out of BPD -- they may still have distress and problematic behavior, but they no longer meet the criteria -- which argues that it's NOT actually a personality disorder but something else. JenniSue 23:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Trying to be bold, I made the following edits: Deleted the links to movies that don't specifically reference BPD (not sure about Bad Timing, so I left it for now); deleted a link to DBT that no longer worked; removed "manipulativeness" from the list of impulsive behaviors (I'm not disagreeing manipulativeness is a symptom of BPD; I disagree that manipulation is impulsive behavior); and cleaned up the NonBP section to indicate that the experience of a relationship with someone who has BPD is universally negative/requires therapy or extraordinary support. While this may be a common (or commonly discussed, which is different) experience, I do not believe it can be verified as universal. Also added specifics of extreme behavior (but did not include pet boiling :) ) JenniSue 02:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Dense, but informative. I added a sentence. Just take it out if you think it's no good. My 2 cents worth. But clinging to people "smothers" them; and the more you worry and mettle with things and ask "what's the matter", the worse it gets. It's the very desperation and needyness in these people that others sense, and often drives the others away. Then they are alone again, and know/feel like they smothered the relationship, and regardless of fault they blame themselves and feel more bad...take it as proof of their unworthiness (even if that's not reasonalble)... Making it harder to generate the self-esteem needed to make a relationship work and get the social support structure set up. It's a cycle. -- Shadow Puppet 22:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I have taken the day to clean up the article in the hope that it will make a great Feature Article.
I have added footnotes and citations and changed to layout to slim down the lead in at the top.
If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate it. Billyjoekoepsel 01:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi, would like to offer some impressions.
I realise the article will to some extent reflect psychiatric diagnostic practice which is focused only on clinically-relevant problems. But it also needs to give the wider picture of those individuals being categorised by this diagnosis. And it doesn't seem to come through enough that most of the people being described as having this disorder are people who have been abused and traumatized by others (cf statistics on childhood abuse) and are vulnerable sensitive people (i.e. not just self-harming dysfunctional manipulators) struggling to manage their boundaries, to come to terms with their experiences and emotions, and to feel safe with others.
I think the bias of the article is also given away by the references to those diagnosable with BPD as 'patients' even when not talking in the context of hospital care etc.
I realise the mentions of DSM are hyperlinked to a fuller explanation of the manual and its source, but I feel it should be mentioned alongside it in the article that this is an american and psychiatric publication.
Terms like (low or high functioning) 'Borderlines' appear to be an invalid and potentially offensive application of a specific diagnostic term referring to a mental state. That whole paragraph seems POV or based on unacknowledged psychoanalytic theory.
"people with BPD actually suffer from what has come to be called emotional dysregulation". This is just one theory.
"difficulty in functioning in a socially acceptable manner" - I view this as a judgemental statement. Accepted by some in their society might give a better sense of the relativity, but this isn't a criterion anyway.
Franzio 11:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I could have been clearer. I was really referring to the use of the term 'Borderlines'. It's jargon and misuse of a technical term - similar usages that many take offence to these days is referring to 'Schizophrenics' or 'Depressives'. Although I would also argue that if informal functional criteria are being applied, it should be specified what these are (especially when taking a simplified continuous measure of functioning and breaking it into two even more simplistic categories of low and high). 'Low Functioning Borderlines' sounds like the sort of phrase you'd find in a Nazi eugenics guide, to be honest.
My point about the use of the term 'patients' was its use more than once in a the context that had nothing to do with service use. I.E. we are talking about people here, but clearly some only think about them as clinical entities. I will change them but I was also using it to try and demonstrate the apparent biased focus of the article (but as I say I can understand it to some extent because it's following a psychiatric term).
'Socially acceptable' is a phrase with a common pejorative usage, and implies a universal unacceptability. It's the difference between saying I don't personally like something versus describing something as inherently unlikeable. It is more accurate and balanced to indicate that others in the person's society (other societies might not have such a problem) often do not understand or accept some of the behaviors of those diagnosable with BPD. Franzio
I don't think calling people Borderlines or Depressives is as widely professionally acceptable as you suggest, and seems to be becoming less so. And wikipedia articles aren't just for professionals. But yes my point was that people shouldn't be referred to as patients or clients when talking generally, and we seem to agree about the neutrality issue. When referring to a diagnosis, I think 'with a diagnosis of' or 'diagnosable with' would be better and more accepted than suffering from.
Just to clarify, I'm not positing a single position, left over or otherwise, I'm trying to reasonably address issues that seem relevant. Franzio 13:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
OK I'll probably get stick for this but I've made a few edits throughout the article reflecting the above points. I've removed the 'failure to function consistently in a socially acceptable manner' - as I understand it this is not a recognised criterion nor an established fact so why is it there? And also removed the clearly biased/advertising references to NIMH (presumably due to the page originating from them).
I've also removed the following entire paragraph, for which there appears no factual support and much of which is, imho, clearly offensive and stigmitising.
"Borderlines can be divided into high and low functioning categories. Low functioning borderlines exhibit the well-known patterns of self-mutilation, dipsomania, drug abuse and so forth. High functioning bordelines are often perceived as being extremely charming and even exotic. High-functioning borderline women have a special power to captivate men, even when these women are not particularly good looking, because of their ability to mimic the behavior and interests of the man. citation needed High-functioning borderlines pay a steep price for bending themselves to the personalities of their mates. Tension within the borderline rises and breaks out in what appears a childish and unprovoked affirmation of the borderline's true personality. To reestablish her sense of self the borderline then begins to devalue her mate and developes grandiose ideas of her capabilities. Female borderlines often feel they have a mystical mission in the world and it has been speculated that oracles in the ancient world may have been drawn from borderlines. citation needed"
Franzio 15:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The above paragraph has now been reinserted as accurate "now that citations have been found". The single link added at the bottom is to this transcript of a radio interview:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/mind/stories/s1244802.htm. Please could it be specified how this substantiates the above paragraph, in terms of the nature of the source, and why those points amongst the huge number of claims made amidst the play and book promotion.
"Glenn Close’s chillingly accurate portrayal of the borderline personality" - How disappointing that the professionals on this programme did not challenge this pathetic and harmful statement by the presenter. Unless I've missed the work on BPD and kidnapping children, boiling pet rabbits and attempted murder. Franzio 09:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps to try and make this less polarized, I could suggest it is as much the wording of that paragraph as some of what it is trying to get across. I don't wish to deny that some of it may partially relate to some accepted evidence applicable to some of the many varied and individual people meeting criteria for BPD at some time (usually young women, following abuse or trauma during childhood).
'Individuals meeting criteria for BPD vary in the level at which they are perceived to function socially or occupationally. High functioning may involve greater than usual willingness and ability to adapt to others, in order to achieve acceptance, intimacy or perceived safety. This often appears unsustainable, however, such that stress and emotional turmoil may increase to a point that some or all involved cannot manage or do not accept, and the relationship may end. The individual with a diagnosis of BPD may no longer see the other person in the previously idealised way, and may affirm their own value and worth."
I'm not trying to say this is perfect or necessarily supported by proper citations or whatever, but trying to be clear about what I'm objecting to. I don't think Wikipedia should be making sweeping statements demeaning millions of people as that original paragraph does. Franzio 09:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I just want to say I have no desire to paint over, just to defend against what I feel would seem more like prejudice in other settings, as someone else now seems to have done below. To Sadhaka's comments above, which were posted after my text after it, I would just say that of course I don't dispute that incidents like this occur in relation to BPD, but personally selected case study anecdotes aren't a good foundation for labels and stereotypes, which if to be used at all (rather than only mentioned as a usage by some) surely require comprehensive balanced statistics, and research properly addressing the parties involved, the personal and social context, and distinguishing causes and correlates. Franzio 13:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Borderlines can be divided into high and low functioning categories.
Low functioning borderlines exhibit the well-know patterns of self-mutilation, dipsomania, drug abuse and so forth.
High functioning bordelines are often perceived as being extremely charming and even exotic.
High-functioning borderline women have a special power to captivate men, even when these women are not particularly good looking, because of their ability to mimic the behavior and interests of the man.
High-functioning borderlines pay a steep price for bending themselves to the personalities of their mates. Tension within the borderline rises and breaks out in what appears a childish and unprovoked affirmation of the borderline's true personality. To reestablish her sense of self the borderline then begins to devalue her mate and developes grandiose ideas of her capabilities. Female borderlines often feel they have a mystical mission in the world and it has been speculated that oracles in the ancient world may have been drawn from borderlines.
C'mon, you guys...there isn't even a conversation here, other than the one you'd have with a monsterously self-important, and intellectually over-compensatory college sophomore over one too many beers during finals week.
There is a considerable amount of anecdotally referential, grossly generalized, and, in some cases, downright implausible positionality and misinformation in this article. That is my POV. We're a bunch of smart folks. I suspect we can do better all the way around. Cheers! -- Sadhaka 18:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC) Talk to me
Ok, I'll step back and let you hack at it. Alienus 20:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, we have two options. We could continue to play hot potato and nothing will change. Or we could work together in here to figure out what that part of the article would look like. I suggest the latter.
I noticed that you included the following comment: "This is not a perception, but a consistent character profile." Ok, fair enough. How exactly would you characterize this aspect of the BP character profile (without devolving "into POV, sexist, and just plain chauvanistic locker room BS"? Alienus 18:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Now that's a lot of good stuff to work from! Here's a quick first draft of what may wind up as a replacement for the disputed paragraph:
It's a bit overwritten, and I have to be careful not to repeat material already covered in this section. Also, keep in mind that, regardless of any research on my part, my own exposure to BP is second-hand and limited to non-clinical interactions, so if I'm saying anything that's misleading or just plain wrong, please don't hestitate to correct me. Alienus 22:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Personally I feel that revised paragraph is going in the right direction. I still feel it prioritises the perspective and hurt of others over those of the person with BPD, perhaps, and some statements are still too sweeping or extreme, when they probably only apply to a proportion or only apply to some extent or in some areas at some times. I don't have specific amendments just now but wanted to support this aim. Franzio 10:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Alienus, I've gone ahead and made some edits to it, was struggling to elucidate exactly what I meant otherwise. They're just my suggestions to be changed or edited again or whatever. Franzio 10:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the bit about childishly snapping due to tension from reflecting someone else, that sounds like speculation. Also I can't believe that 'true personality' is a concept in psychology rather than a bitchy comment. CalG 14:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
OK apologies in advance if anyone feels I've jumped the gun on this, but I've replaced the original paragraph with the one we discussed above, with some very minor amendments. Seems to make sense to edit it there rather than here. The only thing is that it now appears to repeat quite a lot of what is already in the article just above it, so I guess they need merging Franzio 19:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, sorry again if I did jump the gun, and really I just thought might as well edit it within the page rather than here. I would say again that I do'nt believe in watering down, if things are the case then they are the case, but I did want to work on the balance and focus, and I don't personally disagree with any of what you've just said. Franzio 16:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC) (escept for possibly the use of phrase 'the borderline' but each to their own)
I have just merged the NonBP article. This was discussed before Christmas and no objections were raised. "NonBP" is contentious, agenda driven, as POV as it gets and not-terribly-scientific original research. To borrow from Sadhaka "anecdotally referential, grossly generalized, and, in some cases, downright implausible positionality and misinformation" seems to cover it well!
However NonBP exists, it isn't going away yet, but an article of it's own is far too POV for Wikipedia, so the solution seems to be to merge it here.
It's late, I'm tired, I just merged the existing text for now, and deleted a duplicate link, I don't necessarily like the existing text very much and certainly intend to tweak it over the weekend, and hope others will too -- Zeraeph 00:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
But don't you think you need valid information, not wildy inaccurate, agenda driven, PR hype? -- Zeraeph 00:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not even pretending to help here, but I'll offer that of all the support groups for psychosis or neurosis that I've Fight Club tourist leeched my way around, nonBPs are by far the most obnoxious, whiney, needy, emotionally abject, simpleminded trollable bastards of the lot. I'm pretty sure they're ill. Okay, carry on. CalG 02:34, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I should point out WHY I like the section as it stands?
"NonBP", as it currently exists, as an agenda, has about as much credibility with me as the KKK, for remarkably similar reasons. Scratch the surface and there is a lot of bigotry, incitement to hatred and "masterplans for the destruction of real human beings".
I think one of the parts I find most shocking is that the NonBP agenda cunningly twists matters so the BPD (which is most frequently caused by abuse) becomes synonymous with factitious abuse claims. That is a truly cruel artificially created "catch 22" for the abused.
The bottom line, however, is exploitation, NOT of Borderlines (they are, apparently, just objects to be demonised and abused), but of the partners of Borderlines.
For WHATEVER reason (and it's not likely to be 100% healthy) these are drawn from people who are in distress due to their relationship with someone they perceive to have BPD (because they are actively encouraged to self diagnose their partners). Now that distress could have anything in a whole spectrum of origins from "Not getting their own way and WANTING IT BAD" to "being in partial denial that their partner is a stone psychopath", and every shade in between. The NonBP agenda aims to please, and exploit 'em all.
No matter how true, or how much we can prove, we cannot say that on Wikipedia. It's original research. We can't pretend NonBP doesn't exist, because people come looking for it and if they don't find it, sooner or later, set up a seperate article giving it EVEN MORE credibility.
Seems to me, what Sadhaka has done is actually very clever. He has described the only aspect of NonBP that has any valid existance and then gone on to relate it to co-dependency in general. He has give good, solid, objective information for all those "NonBPs" who are in the innocent middle range ie, averagely screwed up people (just like you, me and the dog), who are trying to find a little help and understanding of the difficulties in their particular relationship.
If they listen to Sadhaka, they are going to be just a LITTLE less likely to be drawn into the NonBP agenda, and a LITTLE more likely to be receptive to common sense. That has to be a good thing, and IMHO it's the best you can do whilst retaining objectivity-- Zeraeph 11:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It's only OR if it's unpublished. Alienus 15:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Another relatively recent and exciting development is a variation on Jeffrey Young's 'Schema Therapy', entitled 'Mode Therapy'. Details can be obtained from his book.
If this is notable, it might help to briefly explain what kind of therapy this is. -- 65.25.217.79 20:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't there information on how BPD seems to correlate with the typical "wifebeater" type, complete with paranoid jealousy, being a control freak and abusing the hell out of the rest of the family? It's often the same thing, especially with male sufferers and is mentioned in various sources. I'd hate it if this aspect was completely ignored.-- Snowgrouse 21:39, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Some researchers have called antisocial personality the (often male) flipside of borderline Cas Liber 11:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, a risk factor is what predates a condition. eg. A risk factor for cancer is smoking etc. Under the heading on the page should be something predisposing to BPD, not the other way around. The section under the heading should be under something like 'Adverse Outcomes' or 'Risks of BPD' or 'BPD and Suicide' or something. Some folk have put alot of wokr into the page so I didn't want to hop in and change stuff :) Cas Liber 12:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
If 2% of adults have BPD and 8-10% of those commit suicide, that means the cause of death for 0.2% of American adults is suicide resulting from BPD. This is absurd. See here for WHO's suicide rates in the population. -- 68.100.254.244 18:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
At present I'm writing a novel with a central character who has BPD. While not claiming to be an expert on the subject, I'd like to contribute to this discussion, albeit after I've entered the final stages of my story.
Geelin Geelin 02:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Good luck Cas Liber 04:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Yep, it's about a hermit who also has BPD. He's bordered himself up in his house because he's been so scarred and hurt by the rejection of others; the pain of others' has led him to live entirely alone, and yet he still strongly craves relationships. I'm interested in investigating the histrionic/antisocial/borderline/narcissistic overlap :) Geelin 13:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the history an anon has added the NPOV tag. Can I ask why? For the time being I have removed it until an explanation can be given. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Victims of this disorder may be very intelligent, loving people with strong personalities in terms of holding opinions and defending their ideas, but their self-image is damaged and they seek fulfilment sometimes in very bad environments.
At least a few were thankfully removed:
The death of a victim of BPD (most often a young person) by their own hand due to inadequate diagnosis and care is a tragedy of incomprehensible proportions 209.169.114.213
Apparently, there is a one-day seminar on BPD at the uni of Sydney on December 2. The cost is $125, including food.
To find out more, go to this website: [1]
Cheers, Geelin 02:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. Looked at the outline. May be a fair starting point. Not usre about the 'most common personality disorder' bit in the blurb that goes with it, certainly the most common one which turns up in mental health but that is because of associated behaviours. Cas Liber 02:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The editor (69.183.55.120) gave no reference to check the veracity of his claim that this material is protected by copyright. Since that section was the work of several people who have contributed here on Wikipedia, it is quite unlikely that one person holds the copyright to the material. It appears that the only edit the IP has ever made on Wikipedia is the removal of the NonBP section so I'm claiming that it was vandalism and replacing it. I haven't reverted any subsequent changes to the article. gargoyle888 02:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
...then they would know it...wouldn't they?
Except, unfortunately, you are WRONG about this, because by making the contribution, the original author agrees to licence under GFDL (as you will see when you go to make incensed reply...just under bottom right of reply box) thus [2]. In plain speech, when you posted it here, you signed away the copyright. If you object you can sort it out here WP:CP -- Zeraeph 13:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Curious thing though, as far as he actually claimed at the time, he wrote the Wikipedia stuff just for this article originally, which he THEN seems to have added to a book, which isn't published yet...no IDEA where THAT leaves the copyright, I don't think there IS such a thing as "retrospective copyright"?
Actually Sadhaka is one of the best Psych editors ever, but sometimes, on a more human level, he doesn't quite manage to sustain the same high standard. Between the lines I'd say there is some online psych politic involved. Might be an idea to reword it to save trouble? -- Zeraeph 21:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone verify that the named people in the "Famous Borderline Personalities" section in the article are, in fact, so ? I put in Susanna Kaysen, the author of Girl, Interrupted because that is the defining aspect and controversy of her book. But the others I am not sure of at all, having not put them in. Some I checked, like Livia Soprano and Glen Close's character in Fatal Attraction seemed valid. But I have no easy way of knowing about the others. Except drilling down bio databases and hoping they are accurate. Shouldn't it be limited to people who have declared their BPD ? Should they be kept in the article until verified ? Thanks. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 18:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I boldly removed this entire section. I think it's reckless and inappropriate to mention people who may exhibit borderline traits. -- 70.127.140.156 02:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. Interesting. Is there anything, in principle, plausibly wrong with having at least the fictional characters from movies, etc. It might help people understand the type. Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 14:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC) ( User talk:Wikiklrsc)
Also, confer BPD resources about famous people and movie characters: [3] ... and notice the 2001 book: "Living in the Dead Zone: Janis Joplin and Jim Morrison: Understanding Borderline Personality Disorders" by Gerald A. Faris, Ralph M. Faris. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 20:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Excellent points, Geelin. Thanks. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 13:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC) ( User talk:Wikiklrsc)
Again, excellent find, Geelin ! Now we just have to do the work. Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 12:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC) ( User talk:Wikiklrsc}
I was watching the movie Downfall last night, about the last 10 days of Adolf Hitler's life. It occured to me that Eva Braun, Hitler's wife, was a Borderline. Geelin 12:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Livia Soprano seems to have narcissistic personality disorder, NOT borderline. just because a tv show misrepresents a disorder doesnt mean that wikipedia should condone it. olayak
I totally support having a list of famous people with BPD if they can be verified. (suzanna kaysen, for one.) maybe there should be another list of celebrities who are only suspected of having BPD. I, as someone who has BPD, am seriously offended every time fatal attraction comes up because she clearly has antisocial personality disorder, whether or not she also has BPD. People with BPD are most likely to take their anxiety out on themselves (cutting, anorexia/bulemia, substance abuse) and are highly unlikely to physically harm anyone else. Also BPDs are very sympathetic to animals because of the unconditional love that they recieve from animals and that they dont recieve from people. animals dont abandon them. So BPDs are highly highly unlikely to harm any animal. I realize that she does have BPD, but she also has something else seriously wrong with her. There are many articles out there about the misrepresentation of BPD in Fatal Attraction. I will post one soon. olayak
Marilyn Monroe was "borderline" and Ibolya Oláh is "borderline" I think! -- TransylvanianKarl 12:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)