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The contents of the Autigender page were merged into Autism and LGBT identities on 8 June 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
@ User:Bangalamania, I thought I'd run this by you before adding it to the page. I started to put together a section I'd tentatively title "In popular culture." So far, I have it focused on two characters, one of which is confirmed as autistic and another with headcannon she is autistic (implied by the show's creator and voice actor). The List of autistic fictional characters isn't really of help here, as its very limited on the information which is provided there. Do you think this section would be a good fit for the page? If not, that's totally fine, and I could try incorporating it somewhere into Autism spectrum disorders in the media, or the " Media Portayals" section of the "Societal and cultural aspects of autism" page. In any case, I'll try to add to and improve the page, as I'm autistic myself and am still figuring out where I fit in the LGBTQ umbrella. -- Historyday01 ( talk) 20:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Note: Moved section (which was below) to main page at Autism and LGBT identities#In popular culture -- Historyday01 ( talk) 13:16, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I think this article should be renamed to Autism and LGBT. Just to make it easier to type and find in the search results. CycoMa ( talk) 19:23, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
"Sexuality and Gender Issues in Individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder" doi:10.1016/j.psc.2020.11.009 is linked in many occasions, however the source is not available to myself or the general public. With the many other sources in this document with shaky legitimacy, I think it would be best to review how legitimate this source is. If anyone is able to find a free version of this source, or confirm 100% the legitimacy of the article, please do so or let me know — Preceding unsigned comment added by AustralianBro ( talk • contribs) 10:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Ok, the amount of misinformation or incorrectly cited sources in this article is astonishing. I'll go through them one by one.
1. Sexuality in a community based sample of adults with autism spectrum disorder doi:10.1016/j.rasd.2011.06.003
This reference has massive evidence of bias. The female sample size is ~4x that of men, meaning this source is inherently flawed and should be discredited.
2. Sexual Orientation in Autism Spectrum Disorder doi:10.1002/aur.1892
Another article with over double the female sample size compared to men, and the information they give says 69.7% of autistic people are non-heterosexual, and 30.3% of non-autistic people are non-heterosexual. Those values are incredibly suspicious, and seem to have been designed purposely instead of going off true data. Not to mention the 69.7% value disagrees with almost every other source.
This item has reached a resolution
3. Sexuality in adolescent boys with autism spectrum disorder: self-reported behaviours and attitudes doi:10.1007/s10803-014-2226-3
The place it is linked in the article doesn't fit with this source, and in fact the source claims the opposite of what was said in the article
This item has reached a resolution
4. "Straight Sex is Complicated Enough!": The Lived Experiences of Autistics Who are Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Asexual, or Other Sexual Orientations doi:10.1007/s10803-020-04696-w
This source not only has a very small sample size compared to the population, but the source also allows those that had self-diagnosed to participate. Self-diagnosis is not an adequate variable for a study making claims about people with ASD
This item has reached a resolution
5. "Unseen Attraction" Book
This is an entire section, but in the section about popular culture, "Unseen Attraction" is listed to have a character with autism, however the only available sources for this were reviews of the book, where only the reviewers claimed the character was "possibly autistic". This entire section should be removed.
This item has reached a resolution
6. Broad Autism Phenotypic Traits and the Relationship to Sexual Orientation and Sexual Behavior
https://doi.org/10.1007/s10803-018-3556-3
It is debatable if this should ever be on this page, as people with BAP are not autistic. While it talks about autistic traits, those are not the same as being autistic. I vote for this part being removed.
7. Are Autism Spectrum Disorder and Asexuality Connected? doi:10.1007/s10508-021-02177-4
This source was used to say studies on the link between autism and LGBT people are rare, however the source does not say this in any capacity, and only says the link between autism and asexuality has not been researched in depth.
This item has reached a resolution
8. "Autistic people may generally experience physical intimacy differently"
The source this claim was attached to claimed this in one line, where the sources were shaky at best. This is also irrelevant to the article, as physical intimacy and sexuality are two different things.
This item has reached a resolution
9. "A 2020 review that included the topic of autism and sexual orientation in academic literature said it was a "common theme" for autistic individuals to express
questioning their sexuality"
While the article DOES claim this, it uses the same sources in point 8, and so is shaky information at best. It is also a personal opinion of the authors, as none of the sources that referenced make that claim.
This item has reached a resolution
10.
https://www.bitchmedia.org/article/review-disfigured-amanda-leduc-fairy-tales-disability
This article was used to claim a character was autistic and queer. While this article does say they are autistic, there is no claim of queerness in the article. A further line claims they are queer, this time with no reference at all
This item has reached a resolution
11. Xan West's 2019 novella, "Their Troublesome Crush", and the 2020 book, "Tenderness"
Hoo boy, this one. Firstly, one of the sources just does not work. These literature, while they do have autistic and LGBT characters, seems to be designed to perpetuate harmful stereotypes for both LGBT and autistic people. They ticks every minority box that exists, and genuinely seem to be designed to cause people to have a negative perception of LGBT and Autistic people. I would say these sources should be removed purely because they are harmful and not at all accurate to real autistic people. If this does stay in the article, it should be noted that both are harmful sources.
12.
https://bookriot.com/queer-romance-novellas/
This is an article that just lists many apparently queer stories. This source seems untrustworthy, as all official online descriptions of the book from the publisher make no mention of any queer identity for the characters, only that one is autistic.
This item has reached a resolution
{{{1}}}
This is the source for the Entrapta sexuality claim. This is only a offhanded comment in the stream, and no information has been given in an official capacity. Source should be removed.
This item has reached a resolution
14. Increased gender variance in autism spectrum disorders and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder doi:10.1007/s10508-014-0285-3
This source is once again incredibly biased. This study was conducted specifically on those 6-18 although that is never mentioned in the abstract (not biased, just misleading), with a significant number of males compared to females, it had a flawed method where not only did the parent decide, but the child was also not required to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. The values also disagree with most other sources.
This item has reached a resolution
15. Autism Spectrum Disorders in Gender Dysphoric Children and Adolescents doi:10.1007/s10803-010-0935-9
Not only is the number of individuals very small, but the study includes both those with GID and those with GID-NOS, even though GID-NOS is not a gender dysphoria diagnosis, meaning the reported data is not factual.
This item has reached a resolution
I hope someone reviews these so misinformation isn't continued to be spread. I haven't even looked at the gender identity section yet, however the claims it makes seem suspicious. Will update once I have reviewed. I will also be removing the sources I know to have no reason to be in the article, such as 3 and 7.
AustralianBro (
talk) 11:31, 29 May 2022 (UTC)00:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Historyday01 (
talk)
do not let your personal biases cloud the foundation of truth this website is built onTheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 18:37, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
if we include those without a GD diagnosis, mistakes are bound to happen more often than an official diagnosisis purely your opinion and not supported by any evidence, so there is no point trying to explain it further. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 17:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
On 11:23, 31 May 2022, I made an edit that removed a claim in an article, with no source attached, and the claim being irrelevant to the results the study found. The claim was "Studies on ASD and LGBT identities are limited because most studies are done with children and not adults." Anecdotally, I believe the claim to be true, however without a source the claim should not be in the articles. If anyone finds a source with a similar claim and evidence to back it up, then it should be added back into the article. AustralianBro ( talk) 11:27, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
But if the work done is not good, then it should not be allowed to stay up. If something exists without a source, it shouldn’t be on here. AustralianBro ( talk) 10:35, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2022 and 21 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Maxle.madness ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Librarygirl13 ( talk) 15:56, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Here is a recent review article and secondary news article, which may be useful for improving this article. --Animalparty! ( talk) 20:35, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Hist9600, could you explain what exactly is the issue with this addition? The study looks fine to me. Antiok 1pie ( talk) 23:27, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi folks! Just a little note here that I've translated this page to Dutch: Autisme en LHBT-identiteiten. Thank you all here for the countless hours of work that were put into creating this awesome page! Mx.Alba ( talk) 12:13, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
I propose merging Autigender into Autism and LGBT identities. Autigender is a stub with some potential notability issues that would better fit here. It could be added as a new section without issue.
Pinging people who seem to have worked on that page, although most of them are IPs... Autigender: {ping| Roundish| MikutoH}
Because autigender is a recent article and there's been recent edit activity I wanted to allow for discussion, so... here goes. SomeoneDreaming ( talk) 01:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
Hi! In the above section, we are talking about restructuring the article as we are merging content into it. Right now it's somewhat disjointed. So what do we think this article could look like in the future?
I think the current top-level division between sexual orientation and gender identity makes a lot of sense, but some of the subheads are unclear. "Autism and sexual orientation" --> the subheads "autistic population" and "autistic people by gender" could probably be combined? Sex education seems like a separate issue. In the gender identity section, I'm not sure what the difference is between "overlapping demographics" and "overlapping traits."
I think the autigender stuff would maybe go best under the gender identification section?
Adding some information on asexuality and aromanticism in the autistic community would also be good; I'll work on finding sources in the next few days.
SomeoneDreaming ( talk) 23:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Yes it's true that she is canonically neurodivergent, but Luz is never specifically mentioned to be autistic. Therefore, I'm not certain if she should stay on this page. Also she is specifically bisexual.
Amadeus1928 ( talk) 22:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
@ User:Panamitsu, I appreciate your efforts in editing this page, but your page name change was done without any discussion. I would argue that your changed name is too awkward and weird, and think it wouldn't help users. People can have LGBTQ identities. I'm not sure why you would sat that the title "suggests that it is about gender identities" as I never got that impression. In any case, there should be discussion on here before making such a bold page name change. Historyday01 ( talk) 14:00, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
The article says that most research indicates that most autistic people are straight, but in the following sentence says that studies into autism and sexuality suggests that autistic people have a higher degree of gay or bi feelings than non-autistic individuals. 2A00:23C4:AA1D:4A01:6597:FB5D:DD93:FE7B ( talk) 15:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Well if most aren't then how does anyone know whether or not they're more likely to be? As a person with Asperger's syndrome myself, it strikes me as a political attempt to shoehorn so-called LGBT (the T isn't a sexual orientation so it shouldn't actually even be in there) into everything. -- 2A00:23C4:AA1D:4A01:F82A:69E9:610E:35DA ( talk) 13:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Autism and LGBT identities article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The contents of the Autigender page were merged into Autism and LGBT identities on 8 June 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
@ User:Bangalamania, I thought I'd run this by you before adding it to the page. I started to put together a section I'd tentatively title "In popular culture." So far, I have it focused on two characters, one of which is confirmed as autistic and another with headcannon she is autistic (implied by the show's creator and voice actor). The List of autistic fictional characters isn't really of help here, as its very limited on the information which is provided there. Do you think this section would be a good fit for the page? If not, that's totally fine, and I could try incorporating it somewhere into Autism spectrum disorders in the media, or the " Media Portayals" section of the "Societal and cultural aspects of autism" page. In any case, I'll try to add to and improve the page, as I'm autistic myself and am still figuring out where I fit in the LGBTQ umbrella. -- Historyday01 ( talk) 20:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Note: Moved section (which was below) to main page at Autism and LGBT identities#In popular culture -- Historyday01 ( talk) 13:16, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I think this article should be renamed to Autism and LGBT. Just to make it easier to type and find in the search results. CycoMa ( talk) 19:23, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
"Sexuality and Gender Issues in Individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder" doi:10.1016/j.psc.2020.11.009 is linked in many occasions, however the source is not available to myself or the general public. With the many other sources in this document with shaky legitimacy, I think it would be best to review how legitimate this source is. If anyone is able to find a free version of this source, or confirm 100% the legitimacy of the article, please do so or let me know — Preceding unsigned comment added by AustralianBro ( talk • contribs) 10:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Ok, the amount of misinformation or incorrectly cited sources in this article is astonishing. I'll go through them one by one.
1. Sexuality in a community based sample of adults with autism spectrum disorder doi:10.1016/j.rasd.2011.06.003
This reference has massive evidence of bias. The female sample size is ~4x that of men, meaning this source is inherently flawed and should be discredited.
2. Sexual Orientation in Autism Spectrum Disorder doi:10.1002/aur.1892
Another article with over double the female sample size compared to men, and the information they give says 69.7% of autistic people are non-heterosexual, and 30.3% of non-autistic people are non-heterosexual. Those values are incredibly suspicious, and seem to have been designed purposely instead of going off true data. Not to mention the 69.7% value disagrees with almost every other source.
This item has reached a resolution
3. Sexuality in adolescent boys with autism spectrum disorder: self-reported behaviours and attitudes doi:10.1007/s10803-014-2226-3
The place it is linked in the article doesn't fit with this source, and in fact the source claims the opposite of what was said in the article
This item has reached a resolution
4. "Straight Sex is Complicated Enough!": The Lived Experiences of Autistics Who are Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Asexual, or Other Sexual Orientations doi:10.1007/s10803-020-04696-w
This source not only has a very small sample size compared to the population, but the source also allows those that had self-diagnosed to participate. Self-diagnosis is not an adequate variable for a study making claims about people with ASD
This item has reached a resolution
5. "Unseen Attraction" Book
This is an entire section, but in the section about popular culture, "Unseen Attraction" is listed to have a character with autism, however the only available sources for this were reviews of the book, where only the reviewers claimed the character was "possibly autistic". This entire section should be removed.
This item has reached a resolution
6. Broad Autism Phenotypic Traits and the Relationship to Sexual Orientation and Sexual Behavior
https://doi.org/10.1007/s10803-018-3556-3
It is debatable if this should ever be on this page, as people with BAP are not autistic. While it talks about autistic traits, those are not the same as being autistic. I vote for this part being removed.
7. Are Autism Spectrum Disorder and Asexuality Connected? doi:10.1007/s10508-021-02177-4
This source was used to say studies on the link between autism and LGBT people are rare, however the source does not say this in any capacity, and only says the link between autism and asexuality has not been researched in depth.
This item has reached a resolution
8. "Autistic people may generally experience physical intimacy differently"
The source this claim was attached to claimed this in one line, where the sources were shaky at best. This is also irrelevant to the article, as physical intimacy and sexuality are two different things.
This item has reached a resolution
9. "A 2020 review that included the topic of autism and sexual orientation in academic literature said it was a "common theme" for autistic individuals to express
questioning their sexuality"
While the article DOES claim this, it uses the same sources in point 8, and so is shaky information at best. It is also a personal opinion of the authors, as none of the sources that referenced make that claim.
This item has reached a resolution
10.
https://www.bitchmedia.org/article/review-disfigured-amanda-leduc-fairy-tales-disability
This article was used to claim a character was autistic and queer. While this article does say they are autistic, there is no claim of queerness in the article. A further line claims they are queer, this time with no reference at all
This item has reached a resolution
11. Xan West's 2019 novella, "Their Troublesome Crush", and the 2020 book, "Tenderness"
Hoo boy, this one. Firstly, one of the sources just does not work. These literature, while they do have autistic and LGBT characters, seems to be designed to perpetuate harmful stereotypes for both LGBT and autistic people. They ticks every minority box that exists, and genuinely seem to be designed to cause people to have a negative perception of LGBT and Autistic people. I would say these sources should be removed purely because they are harmful and not at all accurate to real autistic people. If this does stay in the article, it should be noted that both are harmful sources.
12.
https://bookriot.com/queer-romance-novellas/
This is an article that just lists many apparently queer stories. This source seems untrustworthy, as all official online descriptions of the book from the publisher make no mention of any queer identity for the characters, only that one is autistic.
This item has reached a resolution
{{{1}}}
This is the source for the Entrapta sexuality claim. This is only a offhanded comment in the stream, and no information has been given in an official capacity. Source should be removed.
This item has reached a resolution
14. Increased gender variance in autism spectrum disorders and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder doi:10.1007/s10508-014-0285-3
This source is once again incredibly biased. This study was conducted specifically on those 6-18 although that is never mentioned in the abstract (not biased, just misleading), with a significant number of males compared to females, it had a flawed method where not only did the parent decide, but the child was also not required to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. The values also disagree with most other sources.
This item has reached a resolution
15. Autism Spectrum Disorders in Gender Dysphoric Children and Adolescents doi:10.1007/s10803-010-0935-9
Not only is the number of individuals very small, but the study includes both those with GID and those with GID-NOS, even though GID-NOS is not a gender dysphoria diagnosis, meaning the reported data is not factual.
This item has reached a resolution
I hope someone reviews these so misinformation isn't continued to be spread. I haven't even looked at the gender identity section yet, however the claims it makes seem suspicious. Will update once I have reviewed. I will also be removing the sources I know to have no reason to be in the article, such as 3 and 7.
AustralianBro (
talk) 11:31, 29 May 2022 (UTC)00:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Historyday01 (
talk)
do not let your personal biases cloud the foundation of truth this website is built onTheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 18:37, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
if we include those without a GD diagnosis, mistakes are bound to happen more often than an official diagnosisis purely your opinion and not supported by any evidence, so there is no point trying to explain it further. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 17:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
On 11:23, 31 May 2022, I made an edit that removed a claim in an article, with no source attached, and the claim being irrelevant to the results the study found. The claim was "Studies on ASD and LGBT identities are limited because most studies are done with children and not adults." Anecdotally, I believe the claim to be true, however without a source the claim should not be in the articles. If anyone finds a source with a similar claim and evidence to back it up, then it should be added back into the article. AustralianBro ( talk) 11:27, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
But if the work done is not good, then it should not be allowed to stay up. If something exists without a source, it shouldn’t be on here. AustralianBro ( talk) 10:35, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2022 and 21 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Maxle.madness ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Librarygirl13 ( talk) 15:56, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Here is a recent review article and secondary news article, which may be useful for improving this article. --Animalparty! ( talk) 20:35, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Hist9600, could you explain what exactly is the issue with this addition? The study looks fine to me. Antiok 1pie ( talk) 23:27, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi folks! Just a little note here that I've translated this page to Dutch: Autisme en LHBT-identiteiten. Thank you all here for the countless hours of work that were put into creating this awesome page! Mx.Alba ( talk) 12:13, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
I propose merging Autigender into Autism and LGBT identities. Autigender is a stub with some potential notability issues that would better fit here. It could be added as a new section without issue.
Pinging people who seem to have worked on that page, although most of them are IPs... Autigender: {ping| Roundish| MikutoH}
Because autigender is a recent article and there's been recent edit activity I wanted to allow for discussion, so... here goes. SomeoneDreaming ( talk) 01:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
Hi! In the above section, we are talking about restructuring the article as we are merging content into it. Right now it's somewhat disjointed. So what do we think this article could look like in the future?
I think the current top-level division between sexual orientation and gender identity makes a lot of sense, but some of the subheads are unclear. "Autism and sexual orientation" --> the subheads "autistic population" and "autistic people by gender" could probably be combined? Sex education seems like a separate issue. In the gender identity section, I'm not sure what the difference is between "overlapping demographics" and "overlapping traits."
I think the autigender stuff would maybe go best under the gender identification section?
Adding some information on asexuality and aromanticism in the autistic community would also be good; I'll work on finding sources in the next few days.
SomeoneDreaming ( talk) 23:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Yes it's true that she is canonically neurodivergent, but Luz is never specifically mentioned to be autistic. Therefore, I'm not certain if she should stay on this page. Also she is specifically bisexual.
Amadeus1928 ( talk) 22:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
@ User:Panamitsu, I appreciate your efforts in editing this page, but your page name change was done without any discussion. I would argue that your changed name is too awkward and weird, and think it wouldn't help users. People can have LGBTQ identities. I'm not sure why you would sat that the title "suggests that it is about gender identities" as I never got that impression. In any case, there should be discussion on here before making such a bold page name change. Historyday01 ( talk) 14:00, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
The article says that most research indicates that most autistic people are straight, but in the following sentence says that studies into autism and sexuality suggests that autistic people have a higher degree of gay or bi feelings than non-autistic individuals. 2A00:23C4:AA1D:4A01:6597:FB5D:DD93:FE7B ( talk) 15:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Well if most aren't then how does anyone know whether or not they're more likely to be? As a person with Asperger's syndrome myself, it strikes me as a political attempt to shoehorn so-called LGBT (the T isn't a sexual orientation so it shouldn't actually even be in there) into everything. -- 2A00:23C4:AA1D:4A01:F82A:69E9:610E:35DA ( talk) 13:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)