This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Albania–Greece relations article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 150 days

This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

International relations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Albania Mid‑importance Albania–Greece relations is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.AlbaniaWikipedia:WikiProject AlbaniaTemplate:WikiProject AlbaniaAlbania articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Greece Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Cham issue was copied or moved into Albania–Greece relations with this edit on 02:51, 25 June 2017. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers. This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist. [[Albanian communities in Greece#Immigrants|Albanian immigrants in Greece]] The anchor (#Immigrants) is no longer available because it was deleted by a user before. Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

None.

NOTE: Reverts to consensus as listed here do not count against 3RR, per Remedy instructions and exemptions, above. It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as [[Talk:Albania–Greece relations#Current consensus]], item [n]. To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.

1. The section on Albania–Greece relations#Greek minority of Albania shall read as follows: The status of the Greek minority in Albania is one of the unresolved issues existing between both countries. The former communist regime had granted limited rights to the Greek minority within a specifically designated minority zone consisting 99 villages. Since the fall of communism, issues relating to the treatment of the Greek minority have frequently caused tension in relations between Greece and Albania. Current issues primarily involve respect for property rights, access to Greek language education outside the "minority zone", accurate census figures, and occasional violent incidents targeting the Greek minority. Albania's official position has been it that the Greek minority's rights are respected and further discussions on the matter can not be held until matters related to Greece’s expelled former Cham Albanian minority are addressed, while the position of the Greek government is that issues facing the Greek minority need to be resolved as a condition for Albania's accession to the European Union. ( link 1)

2. Current consensus will now be logged at /Consensus. ( link 1)

3. Users are encouraged to utilize dispute resolution forums such as WP:DRN and WP:3O for pending matters with the potential to be resolved. ( link 1)

4. RfCs should include the {{ RFC}} template for broader participation in the discussion. ( link 1)

5. Any real or perceived violation of the [[ current discretionary sanctions (when notified) or other user conduct guideline can (and will) be taken to the appropriate venue and dealt with accordingly. ( link 1)

Ethnic Greeks, some of which identify as Northern Epirotes, form the largest minority in Albania. They are mostly concentrated in the south of the county, in parts of Vlorë, Delvinë, Gjirokastër and Sarandë counties ^{[1] [2] [3]} with Greek communities also located in some urban areas like Korçë, Elbasan, Durrës and Tiranë. ^[1] The former communist regime had granted limited rights to the Greek minority within a specifically designated minority zone consisting 99 villages. Since the fall of communism, issues relating to the treatment of the Greek minority have frequently caused tension in relations between Greece and Albania. Current issues primarily involve respect for property rights, access to Greek language education outside the "minority zone", accurate census figures, and occasional violent incidents targeting the Greek minority. Albania's official position has been that the Greek minority's rights are respected and further discussions on the matter can not be held until matters related to Greece’s expelled former Cham Albanian minority are addressed.

@ SilentResident, Resnjari, and Ktrimi991: because I want to help this process along, I am grabbing citations myself. You can help me by providing cites for other sentences I haven't cited yet, and by placing cn tags on sents that you think need citation. Cheers.-- Calthinus ( talk) 16:10, 19 December 2018 (UTC) reply

@ SilentResident: in line with sources, I have added Delvine to the list of partially Greek-populated counties, I hope this is okay, and I will be replacing Berat with "Elbasan and Durres" in line with that those are the urban centers, aside from Tirana, where sources are describing Greeks to live most heavily.-- Calthinus ( talk) 16:22, 19 December 2018 (UTC) reply

There is no reason to insist about parts that are unsourced (i.e. Cham part). By the way since Resnjari rejects recent papers on the grounds that they are written by Greek analysts, I assume that their Albanian collegues can't be an exeption in this case. Else we are into serious wp:POV Alexikoua ( talk) 16:23, 19 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Yo Alexikoua, please do NOT infer something of my comments when i never made them. I never opposed Greek scholars and so on. I opposed your interpretation of a Greek source which did not state something which you kept insisting it did say. The sentence on Albania's position is written up and editors are being constructive in adding citations for the section to take its final form. Please if you want to contribute to the process ok, if not, no need for further hindrance. Resnjari ( talk) 02:18, 20 December 2018 (UTC) reply

We have all agreed on this version and I will be adding cites from Greek authors such as Nitsiakos. Not sure what your carp with Resnjari is about really, given that he has come under pretty serious fire from other Albanian editors for relying mainly on Greek historiography on pages like Alb nationalism. -- Calthinus ( talk) 16:29, 19 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Also don't forget the sources I provided with my proposals above. If there is anything else, let me know. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 22:32, 19 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Just a reminder for the removal of this analysis [ [1]] with the excuse that this was written by a Greek author and there "there are heaps written by Albanians as well. I guess you wont object to their usage?". Even worse, as soon as there is no source at all the proposal is too weak to receive any support. Thus, since Greek annalists are excluded I assume their Albanian colleagues aren't an exemption in this rule. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:13, 20 December 2018 (UTC) reply

RS sources first to avoid issues with this sensitive topic. Don't care what their ethnic background is as long as they have published via RS sources. Other editors are in the process of gathering citations. Process is by no means complete yet. Resnjari ( talk) 01:47, 21 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I wonder why we are still proposing something that's without a source, especially when this concerns another issue just one section below. Needless to say that we have a clear wp:POV and OR case. Alexikoua ( talk) 07:35, 21 December 2018 (UTC) reply

These are the two sources. I am actually aware of two other sources that back the same stuff but I can not find copies of them rn. Both sources below show several official documents that can help the Wiki coverage of several topics but I am writing here just quotes relevant to the ongoing discussion.

• Eva Tafili Hyskaj ^[1]
• Shaban Murati ^[2]

Read them and make the needed changes to the article. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:57, 21 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I'm afraid that Resnjary has already turned obsolete sources more than a decade old (in the context of current politics). I'm ok with Murati though as soon as the -vn- issue is fixed. By the way I can't see in Murati's quote any mention to Chams and the exodus from Greece. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:18, 21 December 2018 (UTC) reply

The sentence on Albania's position refers from the post communist era until now. Hyskaj is fine and Murati (2016) is most recent both showing Albania's unchanged position then and now. To @Alexikoua the part in Murati is "pozicioni zyrtar i qeverise shqiptare nuk ndryshon, pra te drejtat e minoritetit shqiptar te debuar nga Greqia sanksionon ecurine e metejshme ne dialogun per te drejat e minoritetit grek". The key part of the sentence translated is "the official position of the Albanian government has not changed that the rights of the Albanian minority expelled from Greece sanction further progress on the Greek minority rights dialogue." Resnjari ( talk) 02:09, 22 December 2018 (UTC) reply

• Guys, with all respect, today we had a new development on the Greek minority issue. Specifically, Tsipras, for the first time today - during the Qaudrilateral Summit between Greece, Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia, announced his country's position on the issue, which is that Albania's EU accession will depend on the respect of its Greek minority. Furthermore, Tsipras declared that Albania will have more conditions for joining the European Union. He specifically announced that: "the necessity for the respect of minority rights is a precondition for joining the European Union" (ανάγκη σεβασμού των μειονοτικών δικαιωμάτων ως προϋπόθεση ένταξης στην ΕΕ). [2]

This constitutes a very important development in my opinion, since the head of the excecutive branch of the Greek government, in the past, was reluctant to take such a clear stance on the Minority issue. First time we have such a clear position by Greece's Prime Minister on the matter, as expressed today at the Quadrilateral Balkan Summit. Anyone here objecting to updating the the article with the new development? -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 14:12, 22 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I thought that has been Greece's position for some years. I'm a bit surprised that it wasn't until now. Anyway come up with sentence or an addition to part of a sentence etc. Best. Resnjari ( talk) 14:42, 22 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I have made my position clear. If you wish to add the "final proposal", add it. But I am not going to discuss or agree on further changes. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 15:26, 22 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I don't see any point why a POV approach in terms of sources should be followed. For example Resnjari insists that specific sources should be removed at random as outdated. What makes Albanian analysis of 2003 non-obsolete while non-Balkan academic papers of 2008 useless? The following part should be in the final proposal: The issue of Northern Epirus was formally submerged in 1926 with the signing of a peace agreement between Albania and Greece, but it continues to plague Greek-Albanian relations today. [ [3]]. in order to secure some balance in the paragraph Alexikoua ( talk) 18:49, 22 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Submerged for whom ? Greece has not had territorial claims for some decades now. That is a changed position from the 1970s after the fall of dictatorship by the Greeks generals. Albania's position so far since the fall of communism regarding the Greek minority has been consistent. The day it changes that sentence thereafter will be treated in past tense. Two sources cover it. You can continue as you have here but all it means is that the section further languishes in the talkpage. Resnjari ( talk) 19:30, 22 December 2018 (UTC) reply

@Alexikoua, you discarded Hyskaj as it was published in 2003 and I did not oppose as you did not discard Murati (published in 2016 and mentions declarations of Rama). Anyways, if you changed your mind and do not wish to add anything new to the article, I think we all are happy with that too. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 19:52, 22 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I have made my position clear. If you wish to add the "final proposal", add it. But I am not going to discuss or agree on further changes. Ktrimi, I appreciate that you have contributed to our efforts for as wide consensus as possible. However, consensus isn't about keeping the latest and newest developments that occurred post-consensus, from being added into the article. Per WP:CCC, a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances is something that can happen. Wikipedia is evolving, and new information gets released which at the time of the previous consensus was unconsidered and this is very natural, because the flow of time never pauses and the world keeps advancing. To keep the future events and incidents WP:RELEVANT to Albania-Greece relations from being added, is not a constructive editorial behavior, is disruptive. If you want to participate positively to the article, you are welcome. Otherwise the others can go ahead without you.

I don't see any point why a POV approach in terms of sources should be followed. For example Resnjari insists that specific sources should be removed at random as outdated. Alexikoua, which article are you referring to?

I'm a bit surprised that it wasn't until now. Anyway come up with sentence or an addition to part of a sentence etc. Resnjari, I was surprised too. I don't know, if you have any sentences in mind to propose, feel free to do so. Actually I could like you giving us a proposal, because from past experience, I can tell your sentences tend to be better-worded than mine or other's, due to you being evidently a natural or daily English speaker, if not a native one, and that's useful here. I am not natural or daily English speaker, and my above Greek minority proposal unfortunately took me ages to write it down and present it here. Any help would appreciated if that can save us from making multiple and constant proposals in a row. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 14:20, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Since you are not happy because you want to add additional content, I want to add additional content too. Since the N. Epirus is mentioned, it should be added that many Greeks in Albania feel insulted if they are called "N. Epirotes". Since you wish to add content. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:33, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Since we have the Albanian position it's obvious that something's missing from the other side. I'm ok with the sources presented by Ktrimi (though per Resnjari's rationale one of them is obsolete, but ok ok as soon we have -vn- fixed). Thus, with the addition of a small part next to the Albanian position we can secure neutrality. Top graded papers by Greek analysts can be helpful: [ [4]] describing the position of Greece: "Είναι σαφές ότι στις σημερινές συνθήκες το «Βορειοηπειρωτικό», ως ζήτημα εδαφικής διεκδίκησης, δεν υφίσταται. Ωστόσο, δεν παύει να υφίσταται ως μείζον ζήτημα εφαρμογής, ισχύος και σεβασμού των δικαιωμάτων της Ελληνικής Εθνικής Μειονότητας στην Αλβανία.". Certainly this will shed enough light to the section. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:50, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Ktrimi, the Albanian gov's position is already PRESENT in the paragraph, while the Greek gov's position is MISSING and this itself is problematic, and can become EVEN MORE problematic if we ignore the new post-Consensus December 2018 developments which occurred, where for the first time the Greek government, via its executive head, Prime Minister Tsipras, stated their position on the issue. Responding to a NPOV proposal for inclusion of the missing Greek government's position with even more POINTY POV of your part, such as "Greeks not idendifiying as X or Y", isn't helpful but a blatant case of disruption. I suggest you back off.

Alexikoua, can you offer translation in English of the sentence you are proposing? -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 15:13, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Do not use capital letters, it is not considered constructive. The position of both countries is included in the proposal, you are just trying to create a huge section on the Greek minority's rights. If you wish to add the "final proposal", add it. Additional stuff should include that many Greeks in Albania consider being called "N. Epirote" an insult, and prefer being called "Greek". Ktrimi991 ( talk) 15:20, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

The position of both countries is included in the proposal I see only the Albanian position but nowhere PM Tsipras's statement and or Alexikoua's sourced information. If we add the Greek position then yes, we can say that both positions are covered then. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 15:26, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Nope. The following text gives info on Greece's demands, hence its position: "Since the fall of communism, issues relating to the treatment of the Greek minority have frequently caused tension in relations between Greece and Albania. Current issues primarily involve respect for property rights, access to Greek language education outside the "minority zone", accurate census figures, and occasional violent incidents targeting the Greek minority". Since the "final proposal" explains what kind of term N. Epiriotes is, I might agree on addition of your sentence if the text I copy pasted above is removed from the "final proposal". We are not going to create a huge undue section on the Greek minority's rights. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 15:32, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

It is very incompetent of your part to confuse United States reports and Human Rights organization's positions as being the Greek government's positions. From now and on, you will be IGNORED and I will not respond further to your comments anymore. If you continue to filibuster this discussion, I will report you to the administrators. You have been warned. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 16:25, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

No, you can not ignore me or anyone else. Feel free to report me. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:28, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Resnjari, Alexikoua, Calthinus, are we done with the sources? About the latest December 2018 developments, something like: "The Greek government's position is that it won't consent to Albania's EU accession until issues affecting the Greek minority are addressed" can be good IMO. Contains no POV and allows the article's readers to be informed on the Greek gov's position, as expressed by the Greek Prime Minister this week. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 16:46, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I would rephrase it as "The position of the Greek government is that issues facing the Greek minority need to be resolved as a condition for Albania's accession to the European Union". Otherwise looks good, and I obviously support inclusion. Khirurg ( talk) 17:13, 23 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Yours is even better than mine. Now that the new statements by the Greek PM on the issue are taken in account, I believe the Paragraph to be as complete as possible, per WP:NPOV, as it covers all viewpoints on the issue (both Albanian and Greek gov ones). Just for everyone's information, I have stumbled now upon further information: the PM's remarks were following those of the Foreign Policy Council of Greece, which stated that: "Support was also expressed to Albania's European perspective, with Athens setting as precondition the respect for the European institutional acquis, international law and the rights of the Greek minority." [5] The Prime Minister's remarks and the Foreign Policy Council's statements on the same issue were published less than 24 hours from each other. Such a timing and synergy makes me believe that these developments are not merely a coincidence, but a timely coordinated response reflecting the Greek side's stance on the issue. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 14:24, 24 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Please don't ignore Ktrimi991, that's not conducive to getting closer to a resolution. I do think that sentence is warranted on Greece's position on the Greek minority and it being associated with Albania' s EU accession. @Ktrimi is right however on wp:undue. Albania's position is only a sentence long while the Greek position on all that is a couple of sentences. Either the Albanian position gets expanded also, or the other bits get trimmed so that new addition gets a fit in. Resnjari ( talk) 04:19, 25 December 2018 (UTC) reply

There is only one sentence regarding the position of the Greek government (that respect for the minority rights is a precondition for EU membership). The other sentence is sourced to the US State Department. It is not the position of the Greek government. Khirurg ( talk) 04:47, 25 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Resnjari, I would suggest you take the RS to the RS Noticeboard (or any other boards you think is more suitable for this), and try convince the Admins here that the Human Rights Organization and the United States's Department of State are actually part of the... Greek Government. The admins and the volunteers here will have difficult time understanding your views. I kindly recommend that the next time you read more carefully the RS before rushing to adopt Ktrimi's problematic positions where he has confused the USA's State Department for the Greek government. We have the RS, which meet all of Wikipedia's rules per WP:RS and everyone is free to take them to the noticeboard. Just make sure to bring strong arguments and indisputable evidence to support your case there, because, IMO, the admins and the editors on the noticeboards will not find your and Ktrimi's position to be convincing at best. They will tell you that the position of the Greek side is absent even though this article is about Greece as well. Merry Christmas everyone! -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 12:45, 25 December 2018 (UTC) reply

SilentResident, since no valid objections were raised, you can go ahead and add the section. This long debate has reached its conclusion. Khirurg ( talk) 22:55, 26 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Whether the objections raised by me and Resnjari are "valid" or not is not decided only by you. You know this article is being watched by an admin, so why do you ask SR to make the changes that do not have consensus? Make them by yourself. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 23:01, 26 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Of course they are not valid. You are confusing the position of the US State Department (what the issues facing the Greek minority are) with the position of the Greek government (Albania is not getting in the EU unless it respects the rights of the Greek minority). Whether it's a WP:CIR issue or deliberate obstruction, I can't tell, but either way, these are not valid objections. Khirurg ( talk) 23:13, 26 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Of course they are valid. After all, this article is not about what the US State Dep. says on the minority rights. It is about relations between Greece and Albania and their official positions. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 23:16, 26 December 2018 (UTC) reply

You're kidding right? The US State Dept. is the source we use to source the issues facing the Greek minority in Albania (land theft, violent incidents, denial of education, etc...). It is NOT the position of the Greek government. The position of the Greek government is, Albania is not going anywhere without respecting the rights of the Greek minority. Surely you agree that the position of the Greek government on Albania's EU prospects should be in the article? Khirurg ( talk) 23:19, 26 December 2018 (UTC) reply

While most aspects of relations and problems between the two countries (EEZ/maritime borders;Alb. immigrants; war law and so on) are not covered at all, you wish to make an undue section on minority rights. Nope. The sentences that are not part of the Greek official position should be removed. Only official positions of the two countries. For that matter, does the "Cham issue" sub-section contain info on problems faced by Chams (no right to visit or enjoy their property, no graves for their ancestors etc)? The Cham issue and the Greek minority's rights are merely two of many aspects of relations between Greece and Albania. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 06:22, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I hadn't thought about it but Ktrimi is right, this article is about bilateral relations between Greece and Albania and not relations with the US State Dep. The positions of both countries should be reflected in the article and not the views of other international institutions giving their own positions unless they cite the position of either Greece or Albania. Otherwise its wp:undue and wp:or. Resnjari ( talk) 06:53, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Actually the only undue is about the Cham question which for an unexplained reason -apart from its seperate section- needs to be repeated in the context of the Northern Epirotes. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:10, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Resnjari:, citing independent international organizations and third party countries to verify the information is a common Wikipedia practice and goes totally in line with Wikipedia's WP:VERIFY rules. Your position that the third party sources shall not be cited if the position of the Greek government is to be included, is quite problematic, if not blatant case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT as no other article across Wikipedia have a precedence where the official governmental position of a country is being denied inclusion due to the same paragraph citing reliable reports by third party Human Right organizations. No other article EVER has such a precedence, and Ktrimi may risk get topic banned if this problematic attitude persists here, and I am sure this is not what you want. To include the Greek government's position in addition to the reports by Human right organizations, is absolutely in line with Wikipedia's Verify Content rules. I am considering calling for administrator attention if this problematic attitude of yours and Ktrimi's continues, which goes against any logic. The Admins may also have to consider that this negative attitude is not limited only here, but also extends to other parts of Wikipedia, such as the yesterday's failed report by Ktrimi against Alexikoua on the Noticeboard, where the Administrators criticized Ktrimi: [6]. I am sorry, I can't help this, but comment how this confirms my concerns that that this editor's behavior is problematic and non-constructive at all! Absolutely not!

My position is made quite clear to you, I hope: if you have any issues with the RS, take it to the RS noticeboard. If you have problem including BOTH the third party human right organizations and the Greek government's stance on the isue, then take it to the NPOV noticeboard. Or if you feel, call for a mediation, among others. It is up to you.

From my part, I believe that the content is fully verified and well sourced with RS, and is neutrally worded in line with NPOV rules and both side's positions are covered equally. If you disagree with this or that, or if you even object to Wikipedia's rules, then you know your options. IMO, and as far as the paragraph concerns, it is ready for inclusion to the article. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 14:56, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I'm not against adding in content. You kept moving the bar and bringing up issues and well Ktrimi991 brought up an issue which had not even occurred to me. The US State Dep. is not the Greek government and unless it cites the Greek government position, its wp:undue and wp:or as this article is about bilateral relations. I mean if were including third party positions here then its endless, Turkey has many positions regarding Albania-Greek bilateral relations like on the Cham issue and maritime border. Are we going to add those too? Best not. We should stick to the scope of the article i.e bilateral relations between Albania and Greece and their positions. Resnjari ( talk) 15:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I could have cited the Greek or Albanian side's records on these Human Right violations of the Greek Minority but - as you probably are fully aware too - they are quite biased. Could you like to replace third party neutral reports with biased ones like Albania's, Greece's, or even Turkey's who is chastised by the International community for its notorious perception of human rights? if yes, then we will end up with bigger problems. From experience, Wikipedia tends to avoid using Turkey's view on human right issues across the globe, or even cite the Turkish position on them unless Turkey is directly part of the issue. As for me moving the bar, is not exactly that, is it? I was afraid this could happen, because the longer the paragraph is kept from the article, the more likely it will get outdated by ongoing post-consensus developments which otherwise could make their way directly to the article instead of here. Thats why Wikipedians must not delay so much time on Talk page, and agree to its inclusion to the article so that the editors can work directly on the article in case new developments occur in real life that relate to this. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 15:33, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Turkey does not have a view about human rights issues on Albania-Greece relations unless its in the scope of geopolitics (i.e Cham issue and maritime border -especially the second matter). My point was regarding the inclusion of third party positions in an article about bilateral relations. Resnjari ( talk) 15:38, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

So you're saying the only sources we should use are the Greek and Albanian government? This is absurd. Good luck convincing admins of this point of view. SilentResident (and anyone else reading this), I think it is quite obvious we are dealing with deliberate obtuseness-type stonewalling. Won't look good at arbitration, that's for sure. Khirurg ( talk) 15:43, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Wow, I could love to see the reaction of Admins or the Arbritation committee on Resnjari's ridiculous proposal to restrict reports on the issue to only those by the Albanian and Greek governments... Wow. I can't wait. Resnjari, instead of prolonging a discussion that has come to a natural end, i suggest you acknowledge that this is not going to happen. You may object, or take action by bringing this case to the Arbritation or the Noticeboards. Just make sure you know what you are saying. Because, if the outcome is not what you expected, don't come and tell me that I haven't warned you: the Admins are renown for their lack of tolerance towards irrational arguments. :-) -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 15:59, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Well thanks both of you for the interpretation of my comments when i did not say that. What i did say is that the source/s are RS (have said this many times) and refer to bilateral relations, regardless of whether its background is Greek, Albanian etc it. Please tone down on the bluster. Stay calm. Resnjari ( talk) 16:14, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

The naive threats only make consensus more difficult. We agreed on a "final proposal", then SilentResident started to demand further additions. Nope. At least you should have proposed to also add a sentence on problems caused by members of the Greek minority (hate speech, participation in Nazi organisations like Golden Dawn, acts of violence). They are part of relations too? Right? We are not going to change the article in line with a single POV. Re Arbitration, SilentResident file there as many reports as you wish. The first diff there should be the one where you declared that your family has a "Cham trauma". It is enough to prove your credibility. Calm down and discuss. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:12, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Accusing SR that "we" agreed is done in bad faith (we? who is we? link please): I fail to see "our" agreement yet. We need a balanced version here and selective use of sources isn't a constructive approach. Needles to say that Ktrimi is again into a lunatic wp:NPA concert. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:35, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Did you know that accusing someone repeatedly is a violation of WP:Civility? Take your concerns in the right place. Here we should discuss content disputes. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:41, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Re the said agreement, SilentResident made a "final proposal" (well she made many "final proposals" but whatever). When we (the other side of the dispute) agreed, she started to demand further changes. I was not talking about you Alexikoua, do not worry. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 17:06, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I've gone ahead and added the section. We've been deep in WP:IDHT territory for far too long now. Let those who think that the Greek government's position regarding Albania's EU prospects argue why it should not be in the article. Khirurg ( talk) 17:47, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

It will be reverted. No worries. The EU stuff is indeed for the article, the US stuff no. If the US stuff should stay, as I said, problems caused by members of the Greek minority (hate speech, participation in Nazi organisations like Golden Dawn, acts of violence) should be on the article too. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:02, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Khirurg: Will you revert again? Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:05, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Ktrimi991, please don't ask such questions. Khirurg considers this taunting, and I think I agree. Thank you. Drmies ( talk) 22:34, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Drmies: I am not a native speaker of English and I do not live in an English-speaking country. Hence my good-faith words can be misunderstood. Would you explain to me why my question is taunting? Thanks, Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:40, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I am not either, Ktrimi991, but asking "are you going to revert" is like you're daring someone to revert you. Drmies ( talk) 01:44, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I leave this for a while and come back to a see a whole series of reverts etc to the main article (sigh). Anyway i do agree here on what @Ktrimi991 has suggested. The article's focus ought to be on content about bilateral relations regardless of who published them as long as they are RS. Otherwise it will be an endless cycle of adding "extras" on this and that outside the scope of bilateral relations. Resnjari ( talk) 18:10, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

This is what I am saying. Since the minority is part (as it affects) the relations between the countries, the origin of the RS shouldn't matter. what matters is that we mention these issues and the position of the governments on them. Its so simple. So far, the Human right organizations and the US State Department, are not making statements on this - are just recording the issues - and IMO, if you ask in the RS Noticeboard, you can see that both the Human Rights organization and the State Department were considered RELIABLE thus far, by both the Admins and volunteers in the RS, and have been cited elsewhere across Wikipedia without problems. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 20:13, 27 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Resnjari, you are saying: "The article's focus ought to be on content about bilateral relations regardless of who published them as long as they are RS" but this contradicts Ktrimi's position which is: "The sentences that are not part of the Greek official position should be removed. Only official positions of the two countries." so are you: 1) suggesting either that we shouldn't make note of the Greek Minority's issues (the source of tension in the bilateral relations), which have been verified by RS which Ktrimi wants to remove due to them not citing the Greek or Albanian governments, or 2) are you saying that we should proceed as normal (inclusion to the article) with the RS now that you have stated you are not minding their origin? You will need to be CLEAR on this. No contradictory statements please. Four editors (me, Alexikoua, Khirurg, Calthinus) are already not objecting to the Greek gov position's inclusion, nor to the origin of the sources, and now we are awaiting just for your statement so we clear out things once and for all. It depends on you if the consensus will be solid (5 editors) or average one (4 editors). The more the better. Please state and clarify your position. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 16:11, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Drmies:, I was about to post this on your TalkPage, but you locked the discussion just now, when I was about to post my message, so I will post this here:

• IMO, you shouldn't have reverted Khirurg. The content he added is not "about population" as you claimed, nor is unrelated to the article. I am sorry to say, but in fact, it is WP:RELEVANT to the Greek-ALbanian relations which currently are going through a difficult period due to violations of the minority's rights by the Albanian state which have angered Greece. The Greek PM was due to visit Albania this Autumn 2018, but he made up his mind the last moment due to Greek Minority's worsening situation. Logic says, if the hardships of a minority affects diplomatic relations and is a primary issue in these relations, then it permits inclusion to the article about these diplomatic relations.

Another reason you shouldn't have reverted Khirurg for this, is that this content is opposed only by a small minority in the talk page, not by the majority. Currently, the content is objected by only 2 editors who have rather problematic demands (i.e. they asked that we cite only Governments and not independent sources). And these 2 editors are Ktrimi and Resnjari, while the remaining 4 - me (SilentResident), Khirurg, Alexikoua and Calthinus have no problem with it. I have already told Ktrimi and Resnjari that if they do really mind the sources, then they can take the case to the RS Noticeboard and be done with the case. Simple as that. They have not, however. The discussion in the talk page has come to an end, more or less, because lately what happens in talk page is a classic pattern of stonewalling, which I have tried to break through. [7].

About the problem with the Primary sources, this can easily be resolved. Have a good day. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 18:28, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Can you provide diffs where Calthinus agreed with the version you want to add? I mean the newest version, not the "final proposal". Ktrimi991 ( talk) 19:26, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

You are the only editor who is raising objections to the necessity for the article to contain comprehensive information about the issue of the Greek minority and the governmental positions on it for the readers to be informed and educated. None else is objecting on this. Only you. You have framed out Calthinus. Let me quote you what he told you: "[...] in terms of informativeness this page is indeed lacking something as the Greek minority in Albania (and vice versa) do play a role in bilateral relations, and it is helpful for a reader who wants to be educated a bit on Alb-Gre relations to know that." Have you forgotten that he too is of the opinion that the readers shall be educated on the issue? (Which, mind you is also my position, as well as I am sure it is Alexikoua's, and Khirurg's positions). For some reason, you, unlike us, wanted and asked for no information about the Greek gov's position at all nor about the Greek minority's problems that damaged these relations in the article. You have demanded that this information gets WP:CENSORed. And you are the only one here who insists on that approach. Calthinus is right and you know that.

Now, I shall remind you that my original proposal (the initial one, by me) contained no governmental positions. it was you who asked for the first time that any governmental positions be added to the article. Since you asked for the Albanian, it was naturally bound to have the Greek gov position added as well. That is how Wikipedia works: either both sides, either none of them. I could have agreed to NOT include the Greek gov's position at all as a compromise, but you insisted so much about it. This insistence of yours for including the governmental positions, and the post-consensus new statements by Tsipras, didn't help the whole situation (see WP:CCC request above). You know that an article cant be forever frozen to a particular text version and that new information should be added to it as long as it is well sourced and relevant. You should have considered that before demanding from us to include governmental positions in the first place.

I don't want to go into lecturing you about your stance, but I am reminding primarily myself here (and everyone else) that we are editors and our task isn't to obscure or censor information selectively from the readers on topic issues. Either we include all information, either none of them.

My suggestion (actually more of a reminder) to both you and Resnjari, is that we act quickly from now and on, because soon there may even more WP:CCC cases if this stonewalling keeps going on, especially since we are talking about an ongoing dispute which is is not frozen and continues to affect the relations of the two countries. In case you didn't realized, there is bound to be new information we cannot consider yet, may have to be considered in the future, and you can see where this goes - may require the current text to be updated again. So lets move on, and then agree with the structural issues of the page. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 20:35, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Nope, Calthinus (and Resnjari and I) agreed on the "final proposal". After that you decided you want to add another sentence. But we should not list Calthinus as an editor who does agree or does not agree on the addition of that sentence. He can speak for himself. Tell us, why do not you also want to mention that 1. some members of the Greek minority have been mistreated while others have caused problems (violent acts, participation in anti-Albanian Neo-Nazi parties like GD and so on) 2. some people in Albania are concerned bacause some Aromanians and Albanians claim Greek ethnicity to get Greek citizenship and find a job in Greece? Are not these aspects of relations between the two countries? No, we will not move on because we agreed on a "final proposal". If you wish to add that sentence, remove the two others. We are not going to create very large section while most of aspects of relations (maritime borders, war law, rights for immigrants, collaboration as members of NATO etc) are not even mentioned on the article. You might insist and might revert but that will not help. Next time do not make threats with ANI or AE as it just makes more difficult for the other side to understand your point of view. Cheers, Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:02, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

As I see none proposed the addition of this kind of information: though violent acts occured from both sides, either from GD or from Red&Black alliance etc. In this context I can not see one side being portrayed in a negative way. Issues like "property rights, access to native education and accurate census figures" are hot issues in the context of minority politics. On the other hand the demands of the Cham party are already part of this article. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:28, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

The proposal includes the following sentence "Current issues primarily involve respect for property rights, access to Greek language education outside the "minority zone", accurate census figures, and occasional violent incidents targeting the Greek minority". Re the Chams, they demand more than just property (apology etc) but that is best elaborated on the Chams article. This article just gives the position of Albania (that they should take their ancestors's property back) and does not mention what cities Chams lived in (while the proposal elaborates on what cities Greeks live in) but I do not support expanding the Chams section, at least till more urgent issues of the article are solved. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:37, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

So we have one good point here. I also wonder why so much detail on the geographic distribution which is disputed by the way: "They are mostly concentrated in parts of the country's south." sounds enough for this article and NPOV. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:08, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Nope, Calthinus (and Resnjari and I) agreed on the "final proposal". Everyone did. Including me. But unlike you, none objects to the Greek Gov's inclusion. As a matter of fact, everyone agreed recently that the information you are asking to remove, is WP:Relevant to this article. You are the only editor who is opposing this. If you think the Cham section needs expansion, then go ahead. You and Alexikoua have my support. Fix the Cham issues, but do that without causing problems to the Greek section or using it as argument for blocking the expansion of other sections. There is work to be done on the article and we ain't got your patience. Unlike the Macedonia naming dispute article, this article's disputes are extremely outdated, oversummarized and underdeveloped, and your stance is making things worse. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 22:49, 28 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I have to agree here with Ktrimi991. If were going to be mentioning things that are outside bilateral relations about human rights issues etc, then also other things relating to the Greek minority (like extremist incidents and irredentism) need to be covered considering that they are hot issues. Yo SilentResident most agreed to a final version, then the bar moved with a merger proposal and addition of further content. @Ktrimi991 brought up issues that even hadn't occurred to me and i agree. I should also note here that an admin rejected the inclusion of the section being included in the article with the reason [8] "this isn't about demographics, but about state relations. also, content uses a lot of primary sources". For one the part about demographics ought to go. Resnjari ( talk) 01:46, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Resnjari you say then also other things relating to the Greek minority (like extremist incidents and irredentism) need to be covered considering that they are hot issues. which you will find myself totally agreeing with. That's why I believe the article needs to be re-structured to permit expansion of the minority sections to include more paragraphs in the future, besides the one we are trying to agree on, now. I strongly believe this currently single paragraph about Greek minority (and the single paragraph of the Cham minority) do not suffice for the informativeness of the article and are in urgent need for expansion. I agree with the addition of information, and Calthinus's proposal is a good step towards this direction, but I don't understand why are you raising the issue of extremist incidents and such HERE, right this moment. Doing so, is not helpful. It shifts attention from one problem (about this paragraph) to another (which is not about this paragraph). Here we are talking about this particular paragraph which currently has the following problem: the one side's official viewpoint is present, while the other's isn't. To talk about other issues on the article, like the nationalist incidents (such as Golden Dawn's nationalist provocations, the foundation of the illegal Republic of Chameria by Cham irredentists, and others), isn't addressing the current paragraph's pressing problem of having the Albanian official position present and the Greek official position missing.

"If were going to be mentioning things that are outside bilateral relations about human rights issues etc" thing is, Ktrimi's demand is causing more problems if we go by the logic of classifying the human right issues as being "outside of bilateral relations", because:

1) WP:OR problem: You are forgetting that it is the minority's human right issues the cause of tension in the bilateral ties between the two countries, not the minority by itself. According to the vast majority of sources available, the A country (Greece) cares about the minority's rights and complaints about human right violations by the B country (Albania). All the RS back this and no RS ever claimed otherwise, (i.e. the Greek minority itself as being the problem in these bilateral ties). Removing the mention to the human right violations from the paragraph, is like trying to give the readers the false impression that it is the Minority itself and not its Human rights the problem in the bilateral relations and this is not supported by any reliable scholars. Sorry but Original Research is unacceptable here. Either stick what the sources say, either we will run into big problems.

2) WP:RELEVANT problem: By removing the issue which is causing this tension in the bilateral relations (that is: human rights issue), the Greek Minority no longer meets WP:RELEVANCY criteria for inclusion to this article. It is better that we leave the Minority outside of the article completely rather than mentioning it here without its problems. The minority by itself was never relevant to the diplomatic ties (i.e identity or culture of the minority and such didn't had a factual influence on the bilateral ties), however its human right violations are relevant (since the diplomatic ties soured because of them).

3) WP:POV problem: Portraying the Greek minority as being itself the source of tension in the bilateral relations instead of its human right violations, happens, as most editors here are fully aware, especially Greek editors, to be an extreme far-right viewpoint shared only by nationalist Albanian circles who view that the Greek minority itself has no human right issues, and speculate that these "human right issues" (yes, with "") are a Trojan horse utilized by chauvinist Greece. Any POV similar or close to that, in Wikipedia, is UNACCEPTABLE, Resnjari. I am disappointed because I know you know about these views espoused by extreme far-right circles, as evidenced from your interest in Albanian nationalism (your work on the article Albanian nationalism says it all), I can not wonder if you are playing fool here. I am very disappointed with you. Is this what you are asking now??? To give the readers the impression that the cause of bilateral tensions aren't the minority's human right violations but the Greek minority itself? No, Ktrimi's demands ain't happening. Take the matter to the NPOV Noticeboard, if you want. You will will NEVER ever find myself consenting to such demands. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 10:42, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I have to agree here with Ktrimi991. If were going to be mentioning things that are outside bilateral relations about human rights issues etc, then also other things relating to the Greek minority (like extremist incidents and irredentism) need to be covered considering that they are hot issues. Yo SilentResident most agreed to a final version, then the bar moved with a merger proposal and addition of further content. @Ktrimi991 brought up issues that even hadn't occurred to me and i agree. I should also note here that an admin rejected the inclusion of the section being included in the article with the reason [9] "this isn't about demographics, but about state relations. also, content uses a lot of primary sources". For one the part about demographics ought to go. Resnjari ( talk) 01:46, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Copying the same text over and over as you did here: [10] and then here [11] is disruptive stonewalling. Either reply to my comments or not. You are copy-pasting anywhere the same text again and again, but you aren't providing clarifications. Since you aren't doing that, here some questions which you ought to answer:

• 1) Which particular sentence about demographics? Can you quote it?
• 2) Are you implying that fixing a WP:POV issue in the current paragraph (presnece of Albanian official position and absence of Greek official position) constitutes "moving the bar"?
• 3) Why are you referring to as me having "moved the bar"? This is my impression I get from your replies here and on EdJonston's talk page. Haven't you refused the merger proposal? Yes, This means the bar eventually didn't move, as you refused to consent to moving it. Even though my merger was meant to help restructuring the minority section so that it could expand. Now Ktrimi asks in his proposals for the minority section's expansion, aka "moving the bar" himself. And you support it this time.

It left me a bitter taste that you are accuse me of "moving the bar" while at same time not realizing that you are supporting Ktrimi's "moving of the bar" (with which too I am fine). Resnjari, the only difference here is this: YOU opposed my proposal for moving the bar and restructuring the minority section (see above) while at no point I objected to moving the bar with the inclusion of nationalist incidents into the article (Calthinu's expanded upon the issues of the articles below, in this talk page). If you want to move the bar, state it from the start. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 13:27, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Final Proposal (Updated)

This proposed paragraph intends to inform the readers on the human rights situation of the Greek national minority of Albania but it has two problems of neutrality, currently: first problem is that the Greek official position (Greek POV) is absent from it while the Albanian official position (Albanian POV) is already in it. This goes against Wikipedia's WP:NPOV rules which state that BOTH viewpoints shall be covered. And second problem is that certain editors here with notorious POV agendas are blocking the paragraph which is about the minority's situation from being included to the article, and demand that this paragraph shall be mixed with information that isn't about minority, but about violence and incidents by certain individuals (nationalists, irredendists and such) which normally belong to different sections. This is done so that the minority is portrayed with a negative light on Wikipedia, which goes against the Project's core pillars and rules.

The Albania-Greece relations have a long record of nationalist provocations and incidents from both sides. Thus far, no editor has objected to any future expansion of the article and corresponding sections with more information covering this (i.e. the addition of info about provocations by nationalist individuals, history of diplomatic tensions, diplomatic incidents, migrants and more). Editor Calthinus suggested (in his own talk page section, below the current one, titled: "Proposal that might be premature to label final (sigh)" [12]) on how to expand on and develop the article in the areas where it is lacking, and offered an essay on how to do that. However certain editors are for some reason stonewalling the current discussion about the POV issue (where the official Albanian position is present but the official Greek one is absent). My opinion is that any violence or incidents by individuals, do not belong here about the minority, but elsewhere.

@ Alexikoua: @ Resnjari: @ Ktrimi991: @ Khirurg: @ Calthinus: and @ Drmies: I would like to hear everyone's opinions on these adjustments. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 15:26, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

• There is nothing new in your newest "Final proposal". There are two options: 1. Only the official position of the two countries is present 2. If problems related to the minority are listed, they should also include that a. some members of the Greek minority have been mistreated while others have caused problems (violent acts, participation in anti-Albanian Neo-Nazi parties like GD and so on) b. some people in Albania are concerned bacause some Aromanians and Albanians claim Greek ethnicity to get Greek citizenship and find a job in Greece. I mostly support the first one, though I might agree on the second. Otherwise you should not expect several editors agree with you. Now and in the future. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 17:26, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

That's reasonable @Ktrimi991. Resnjari ( talk) 17:46, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Excellent proposal Silent Resident, I fully support. In order to overcome the stonewalling by the usual culprits however, I suggest you try to get as much community involvement as possible via RfC, NPOVN, etc. Khirurg ( talk) 19:48, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Same goes for the "violent acts" and "hate speech". If we go down that route, it is likely those who insisted on it will end up regretting it [13], this [14] and this [15], as the lion's share of the violence and hate speech comes from one side. Khirurg ( talk) 20:06, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

On "violent acts" and "hate speech" this is more however in the context of bilateral relations. For latest example is Albania repeatedly asking the Greek government and authorities to condemn violent acts toward Albanians in the country and to stop them: [16], [17], [18]. I disagree that actions are from "one side". But you saying it comes from "one side" kind of shows from what angle your your looking at this. A reminder this page is not about WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and your edits were already once reverted by an administrator. Resnjari ( talk) 20:20, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Did you see the part about and another shot by Greek police while trying to illegally cross the border transporting drugs.? It is highly dishonest to portray the killing of drug dealers as "hate". Khirurg ( talk) 20:53, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

That is highly disappointing that you disregard the articles by focusing on one of the killings because they do NOT refer to one killing but 4 recent ones. Apart from the one you refer too the others are blamed on Golden Dawn and so on i.e hate crimes + plus the Albanian government wants answers from the Greek government (this part is bilateral relations). Resnjari ( talk) 21:08, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Khirurg "usual culprits"? I see your back to form. A reminder, an admin reverted your addition to the page recently [19] on grounds that "this isn't about demographics, but about state relations. also, content uses a lot of primary sources". I have one question, why was the sentence on the Albanian position missing when you did make that addition? An 'oversight'? I'm all for wider community involvement. To whichever editor decides to go down that route, make sure to ping participants when the process has begun. Resnjari ( talk) 20:01, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

By the way, those who insist on "only official positions of the two countries" should be careful what they wish for [20]. Khirurg ( talk) 19:57, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Is that another primary source you have there ? The admin who rejected your addition did state that your addition had a lot of primary sources. Resnjari ( talk) 20:01, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

As far as I recall, it was you and your friend who insist on "only official positions of the two countries". Now you don't like it? Khirurg ( talk) 20:06, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Yeah official positions via RS sources. Otherwise Albania too has its own government websites. By the way who is my "friend", can you elaborate or is this another slip of the tongue on your part? Resnjari ( talk) 20:22, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

The Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs is the most reliable source there is for the official positions of Greece. I would think that that's kind of obvious. Khirurg ( talk) 20:46, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

For that matter, Albanian gov accuses Greece of involvment in domestic affairs using religious claims, paying ethnic Aromanians and Albanians to declare themselves as ethnic Greeks, not criticizing acts of violence by members of the Greek minority, claiming Greek minorities where there is none etc. These are well-sourced and declarations of Alb gov. The two countries have many claims. We might add them as official positions. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 20:51, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

There is lot written on that @Ktrimi991 and its a sound proposal you make for adding them to the article. Resnjari ( talk) 20:54, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Yeah, a lot of interesting stuff ready for this article. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:08, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I searched the Albanian mfa site, but unfortunately I didn't find any relevant (no mention of the Greek minority, unsurprisingly). But I have found lots of other "interesting stuff ready for this article.", if you want to go down that road [21] [22] [23]. Can you translate the sign in the last link for us? Khirurg ( talk) 21:41, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Search again [24] [25] and many other declarations to be posted here soon. All of these connected with the Greek minority by Albanian gov. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:50, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Excellent finds Ktrimi991. As its bilateral relations it would need to have both positions within the context their interactions. Some RS would do fine for an overview over the past years. Resnjari ( talk) 22:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Abuse of minority rights is a hot topic in the diplomatic agenda, there is no reason to avoid this kind of info in this section. It's essential for the context of the specific section. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I don't know if information about drug dealers & networks is relevant to this article. It appears more suitable in articles such as Albanian mafia. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:30, 29 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I have lots of sources about Albanian citizens killing Greek citizens in Greece (at least 30 Greeks killed by the Albanian Mafia alone in Greece since 1990), Cham nationalists raising irredendist Greater Albania flags in Thesprotia (Only for the year 2018, 2 such incidents), Albanians raiding and robbing Christian churches in Southern Epirus, and many more. I hope @ Ktrimi991: and @ Resnjari: won't mind including these as well? Since it is the misbehavior of the Albanian citizens in Greece and the records about it is HUGE: from the killing of a famous jurist (Michael Zafeiropoulos), to the burning of alive man, the cruelty of which shocked the Greek society, and the tensions between Greece and Albania and their Interior Ministries for the lack of willingness of the Albanian side to probe the mafia fugitives who flee to Albania to escape Greek Police arrest. I suggest Ktrimi and Resnjari to be ready for the inclusion of all this information if they insist on going down this route. Personally I couldn't recommend and rather follow the example of Italy-United States relations which avoid touching these issues despite similar issues between these 2 countries. But it is Ktrimi's and Resnjari's call. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 00:02, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

If Greek gov. considers what you wrote above to be part of relations between the two countries, they should be on the article. A section on Alb. immigrants should be created with the official position of the two countries. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 00:08, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

"A section on Alb. immigrants" Separate section? No way. All part of THIS paragraph, since it is YOU who insisted that this paragraph shall contain anything. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 00:11, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Are you kidding? Do you want to add content on Alb. immigrants to the Greek minority section? Ktrimi991 ( talk) 00:14, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

"Are you kidding? Do you want to add content on Alb. immigrants to the Greek minority section?" Absolutely not kidding. If you insist that we mix nationalists and irredendists with minorities, if you insist mixing violence with minorities, then so we shall mix criminals with minorities. Simple as that. Sorry. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 00:18, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Open a RfC for that since you wish to make changes to the article. The Cham issue, Greek minority, immigrants, maritime borders, war law, soldiers' graves etc are separate issues and each of them needs its own section. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 00:23, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

More clearly, each of them needs to be a separate sub-section of the Modern relations section. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 00:26, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

( edit conflict)"are separate issues and each of them needs its own section." "...and so do the nationalists from both sides need their own separate section from the human right section", if I may complete your phrase. There is no precedence in Wikipedia where we mix individual nationalists and criminals with governmental policies on human rights. Absolutely NO PRECEDENCE. Since you want to set a precedence here on this, then we will mix them all, even those which you don't like. I have warned you to be careful but you didn't listen to me. Now either you will shallow the pill of your stonewalling tactics, or you will accept the reasonable proposal above which avoids mixing governmental policies on human rights with individual nationalists and criminals into, not just the same section, but same paragraph which is what you insisted. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 00:29, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

My statement has been updated to reflect on the stonewalled situation in this talk page, but proposal remains: [26]

This proposed paragraph intends to inform the readers on the human rights situation of the Greek national minority of Albania but it has two problems of neutrality, currently: first problem is that the Greek official position (Greek POV) is absent from it while the Albanian official position (Albanian POV) is already in it. This goes against Wikipedia's WP:NPOV rules which state that BOTH viewpoints shall be covered. And second problem is that certain editors here with notorious POV agendas are blocking the paragraph which is about the minority's situation from being included to the article, and demand that this paragraph shall be mixed with information that isn't about minority, but about violence and incidents by certain individuals (nationalists, irredendists and such) which normally belong to different sections. This is done so that the minority is portrayed with a negative light on Wikipedia, which goes against the Project's core pillars and rules.

The Albania-Greece relations have a long record of nationalist provocations and incidents from both sides. Thus far, no editor has objected to any future expansion of the article and corresponding sections with more information covering this (i.e. the addition of info about provocations by nationalist individuals, history of diplomatic tensions, diplomatic incidents, migrants and more). Editor Calthinus suggested (in his own talk page section, below the current one, titled: "Proposal that might be premature to label final (sigh)" [27]) on how to expand on and develop the article in the areas where it is lacking, and offered an essay on how to do that. However certain editors are for some reason stonewalling the current discussion about the POV issue (where the official Albanian position is present but the official Greek one is absent). My opinion is that any violence or incidents by individuals, do not belong here about the minority, but elsewhere.

-- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 12:51, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

This proposal of SilentResident is well balanced and seems very close to NPOV. Jingiby ( talk) 13:26, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Jingiby the proposal that Silent has suggested and was placed into the article by @Khirurg (without the Albanian position sentence) has already been rejected by an administrator [28] on grounds that "this isn't about demographics, but about state relations. also, content uses a lot of primary sources". There is a lot more to hash out here. Resnjari ( talk) 13:32, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

"And second problem is that certain editors here with notorious POV agendas". SilentResident is this what you think of other editors who may not agree with your viewpoint? I thought you were above that kind of thing. On the things you brought up, Ktrimi991 put it best "If Greek gov. considers what you wrote above to be part of relations between the two countries, they should be on the article." Otherwise its WP:OR and in the end were here to build a encyclopedia and not WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Resnjari ( talk) 13:23, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I think, the article of the subsection has to be: Greek minority issue and the text can be: The status of the Greek minorityin Albania is one of the unresoved issues existing between both countries. The former communist regime had granted limited rights to the Greek minority within a specifically designated minority zone consisting 99 villages. Since the fall of communism, issues relating to the treatment of the Greek minority have frequently caused tension in relations between Greece and Albania. Current issues primarily involve respect for property rights, access to Greek language education outside the "minority zone", accurate census figures, and occasional violent incidents targeting the Greek minority. Albania's official position has beenit that the Greek minority's rights are respected and further discussions on the matter can not be held until matters related to Greece’s expelled former Cham Albanian minority are addressed. Jingiby ( talk) 13:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

If we are going to make only a summary of the situation, the proposal of @ Jingiby: is very good. If we are going to add many details, the links I posted earlier should be added too. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:36, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

I see where your coming from Jingiby. Its a reasonable compromise. ok, i'm on board with your proposal. Resnjari ( talk) 14:47, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Jingiby so are you proposing the Albanian gov's position stays and the Greek position is left out??? Can you Jiginby explain to me how removing the Greek position makes the proposal better?? -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 15:33, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

The position of Greece is given (that the minority deserves more rights like language and recongnition outside the "minority zone"). If more details are to be added, the links I posted earlier should be added too. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:03, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

You guys have only 2 options based on User:Jingiby's proposal, your take, your call:

There is no middle solution. Either the first option, either the second option. Sorry. The Wikipedia's rules are very clear regarding WP:NPOV, that a content must be representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. and there are 2 significant views published, the Albanian and the Greek. Either we publish BOTH views, either we publish NONE of these views. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 15:51, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

The position of Greece is given (that the minority deserves more rights like language and recongnition outside the "minority zone"). If more details are to be added, the links I posted earlier should be added too. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:03, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Maybe, a small update for the Greek position is reasonalle: Greek government however insists that minority issues need to be resolved before Albania's accession to the EU. Jingiby ( talk) 16:26, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Ktrimi991: You say: "The position of Greece is that the minority deserves more rights like language and recongnition outside the "minority zone"" but the RS contradicts your claims. According to the International Human Rights Organization: [29]: "The ethnic Greek minority complained about the government’s unwillingness to recognize ethnic Greek towns outside communist-era “minority zones,” to utilize Greek in official documents and on public signs in ethnic Greek areas". Be very careful, when going down the route of baptizing human right complaints coming from the Minority as coming from a foreign Government. You are on WP:OR territory, and I am very sure you are fully aware that insisting on OR can be a very dangerous route. I hope you have realized that the Greek position needs to be added otherwise not only you will be on WP:OR territory but also on WP:POV territory. Is that what you want here?

@ Jingiby: thank you!!! -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 16:28, 30 December 2018 (UTC) reply

Greece and Albania, especially the peoples, share a long, rich, and albeit complicated history. Far more detailed than what the Wikipedia article has included for many years now.

It's unfortunate that some with bias have been at the helm of producing valuable contributions and updates to this page, as well as many others relating to Greek-Albanian affairs. It defeats the purpose of Wikipedia.

As a university graduate from New Zealand who has long been fascinated in the relations of the two countries and peoples I am keen to get working on updating this page in order to shine the light on the more in-depth relations, good and bad.

Despite the belief there aren't enough suitable, honest, and detailed sources on this topic a thorough online search provides a variety of academic sources exploring the topic to its core. In English, Albanian, and Greek.

As two neighbouring countries that are clearly intertwined in many ways, it will be wise to update and revamp the page so Greeks, Albanians, and others can get a clear, broad and and rich insight into the historical and present relationship between the two countries and their peoples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varvanitis ( talk • contribs) 23:50, 27 October 2019 (UTC) reply