This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2001 insurgency in Macedonia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Kumanovo water crisis was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 12 June 2021 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into 2001 insurgency in Macedonia. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
The contents of the List of books about Albanian terrorism in 2001 in Macedonia page were merged into 2001 insurgency in Macedonia on 28 July 2014. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Per the recent name change by the country's government. CentreLeftRight ✉ 22:40, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change ONA casualties to: 84(Oficially stated by ONA), over 2000( unoficially by bodies counted). 64 is incorrect 37.25.87.202 ( talk) 06:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
NATO was not part of the conflict yet Albanian editors daily add it to the Macedonian side of the conflict, NATO was a mediator which more than once helped the NLA. They also add Bulgaria and Turkey.
Bulgaria donated tanks in 1999 and had nothing to do with the conflict in 2001. Turkey stated their support for the government which is also what all governments including the Albanian government did. This is from the citation used to add Turkey to the "Support" part
>Albania gave full support to the Macedonian government
( https://hal.science/hal-00583229/document)
As for NATO
>JSTOR ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/24919730?seq=12#metadata_info_tab_contents)
Quote: But you have to remember that the government in Skopje did not find allies in NATO nor in the EU. Quote: This policy should not be treated as a desire to help the Macedonians
NATO rescued the NLA from Aracinovo and was routinely accused by the Macedonian government of helping the NLA, stop this. GoofyGoofyson ( talk) 13:23, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
The Tanuševci Operation was a Joint military operation against the NLA, KFOR started the operation by attacking NLA troops in Tanuševci which led to a retreat by the NLA. Macedonian troops later ambushed the retreating NLA troops! All of this happened in Macedonian territory this isn't even the only NATO military operation in the conflict! You must have forgotten about Operation Essential Harvest and Operation Amber Fox Based.shqiptar.frompirok ( talk) 13:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Me and countless other editors like Karadakli230 and Albnian 7 have given more than enough sources for our edits but you delate them without any reason Based.shqiptar.frompirok ( talk) 13:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello Alaexis, As already Based Shqiptar from Pirok has said, he and I have already clearly stated sources and NATO has helped the Macedonian troops against the NLA, wrm we should then not include them purely in relation to Bulgaria in the source is the Bulgaria military Macedonia supported against the rebels Albanian 7 ( talk) 23:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
How is it an Over-Simplification? NATO literally attacked a major stronghold in Tanuševci and even told the NLA to Surrender to Macedonian forces https://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/08/world/nato-troops-help-macedonians-drive-away-ethnic-albanian-rebels.html https://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/05/17/macedonia.03/index.html
Further more the NATO Secretary General George Robertson referred to the NLa as "a bunch of murderous thugs" http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/05/07/macedonia.fighting.04/index.html
NATO also started Operation Essential Harvest, in which they disarmed Albanian rebels who were fighting for the Control of Tetovo https://books.google.de/books?id=SB1OrH8iZtcC&redir_esc=y Karadakli230 ( talk) 01:42, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
92.53.57.136 ( talk) 19:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
The albanian NLA had around 400 dead soldiers you can confirm this by going on their 2001 conflict graveyards in Aracinovo, Grusino and Kicevo.
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add Russia on side of Macedonia because they helped them by sending tanks https://greekcitytimes.com/2022/07/30/skopje-sends-t-72-tanks-ukraine/ here is the source Corrector MK ( talk) 16:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
the sources refer an amount of volunteers who joined this war due to religious reasons. this is not a "belligerent" as they were members of the NLA. during the Bosnian war, there was an entire mujahideen battalion. yet it is not listed as a belligerent as it was not. a unit/reason for fighters to fight a conflict is not the same as a belligerent. Durraz0 ( talk) 12:51, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Botushali, I've restored information based on a reliable source. Nigel mentions a unit of mujahedin in his Yugoslav wars, p. 53 ("There was also an independent unit of 150 Mujahedin from Afghanistan, Bosnia and Turkey under Selim Ferit.") Alaexis ¿question? 05:48, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Also, it's you who made the most reverts recently. Please be aware of the WP:3RR rule. Alaexis ¿question? 05:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Since I added this section, I'll elaborate my views - there are reliable sources talking about Mujahideen presence as fact. This cannot be denied nor can it be minimized. There are also sources which state that it is important to note such presence. They are presented in the section.
There are also sources which talk about Macedonian allegations of Al-Qaeda, Taliban and Mujahideen connections with the NLA and ANA. Those have also been added, although the bulk talk about allegations of ties with the Taliban, Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, not the Mujahideen.
Furthermore, the Mujahideen are presented as a sub-belligerent (not belligerent) of the NLA, as all RS confirming their presence talks about them being part of the NLA.
Since I've seen arguements that "x doesn't mention them in the infobox, so they shouldn't be mentioned here", I'll like to bring attention to the fact that there are pages which do mention alleged belligerents, which I've listed above, per the request of Ktrimi991 - those are March 1949 Syrian coup d'état, Nojeh coup plot, Somali Civil War (2009–present) and Kivu conflict.
The edit which was reverted had the Mujahideen as a sub-belligerent of the NLA, with text in brackets saying "Alleged" and a note leading to the section elaborating more on their presence. It is without a doubt the most neutral solution, since the fact that multiple reliable sources consider their presence as fact cannot be minimized, nor can the fact that a few reliable sources also consider their presence as allegations. Both viewpoints have been presented. Regards. Kluche ( talk) 09:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Because Islamic terrorism has become a pivotal issue in the media worldwide, reports and allegations quickly arose in the local and international press concerning connections between Islamic regimes in the Balkans and the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Whereas the Slavic-Macedonian press claimed to have identified connections between the Mujahedin, their allies and the Albanian rebels in the hills around Tetovo.....Similarly, in tension-ridden Macedonia, hard-line Slavs have consistently equated Albanians and terrorists, speculating about possible links between the Albanian groups and the Taliban or even Al Qaeda. For the time being, however, Western conflict management seems to worry about the provocations and obstructionism of Slavic hardliners rather than about external support for the Albanian rebels. A nationalist outcry in Macedonia, portraying the Albanian rebels as the "European face of Osama bin Laden" blocked the constitutional reforms promised in the Ohrid Agreements for weeks. Because most Macedonian Albanians are rather secular Muslims, these allegations were too obvious a ploy to sway Western resolve to implement the agreement and consolidate Macedonia as a multiethnic state.
The picture, however, is less clear in Macedonia, which has a significant Muslim population and a recent history of armed conflict. Macedonian-language media have, since 2001, consistently reported that Islamic extremists have been active in Macedonia, even alleging that the ANA (Albanian National Army; not to be confused with the armed forces of the republic of Albania) possessed concrete links with Osama bin Laden and Mujahedin.
Rumors concerning Serbia's purported involvement in the crisis in Macedonia and the alleged presence of foreign mujahideen fighters in the country spread widely.
Following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks against the United States, the Macedonian government repeatedly used anti-terrorist rhetoric, invented threats to score political points, and raised the specter of Islamic fundamentalism among Macedonia's Albanians. After police shot and killed seven foreign men on the outskirts of Skopje in March, the government cast the incident as a thwarted "terrorist attack" on Western embassies in the capital. The Ministry of the Interior attempted to link the men with the NLA and al-Qaeda, and called them "mujahideen" fighters. Suspicions emerged when official versions of the incident changed, and the ministry rejected a request for international forensic experts to examine the bodies. The Wall Street Journal later reported that the victims were Pakistani and Indian migrants traveling to Greece to seek employment. The government continued, however, to label them "terrorists."
Whether or not there were any mujahedin soldiers of fortune fighting in Kosovo or Macedonia , these wars were certainly not part of a jihad.
None of the sources says that there were no mujahideen in Macedonia at that timeAnd also they do not say there were Mujahideen involved in the conflict. They treat that as an unproven claim. Hence when multiple RS question the Mujahideen presence, that presence can't be treated as an unquestionable fact. On the "stable version", there is no "stable version". Since the Mujahideen were added, they have been continuosly removed and readded. That is not a "stable version". Ktrimi991 ( talk) 19:22, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
For the zillionth time, do not cite WP:NOTEVERYTHING. That is sth other that what you seem to think it to be. The section can't have only 3 or 4 sentences as you propose. Sections are supposed to elaborate on a certain issue or topic. I added "according to" and "he notes/adds" because they are just opinions, not necessarily facts. Controversial articles have such wording. Btw, can you provide a quote from Anthony Tucler Jones? A quote could help editors amd readers to verify what he says. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:26, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.Information which isn't supported as a certainty in bibliography should stay out of infoboxes because it doesn't help readers, but causes more confusion. It is methodologically more pertinent to write the section itself and then move on to such details like infobox structure.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:28, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
It's wrong to say that there are claims about the presence of 150 mujahideen as we have 3 sources which mention 150 mujahideen without any caveats
There was also an independent unit of 150 Mujahedin from Afghanistan, Bosnia and Turkey under Selim Ferit.
In Macedonia, about 150 Mujahideen from Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Turkey ... supported the activities of KLA
However, it is important to note that some 150 mujahedin did fight in [the NLA] ranks but played a minor role
The Macedonian government's scaremongering and false claims of Al-Qaeda involvement do not in any way disqualify these sources. Alaexis ¿question? 18:29, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
According to some Macedonian politicians and Macedonian-language media, this possibility is already a certainty. Wild and unproven allegations linking the local ethnic Albanian rebel force, the NLA, with bin Laden and 'mujahidin' were published and broadcast in the aftermath of the 11 September attacks( page 21). Ktrimi991 ( talk) 15:32, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
While we are at it, who said that the mujahideen played a minor role in the conflict? Can you provide the citation for that? Alaexis ¿question? 09:32, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
I propose that Mujahideen be removed from the infobox. In the absence of any RS alleging more than a minor, non-autonomous role at most, it is absurd to include in the infobox. I honestly don't think that we should need an RfC for this question, as removing it is plainly the correct decision from a guideline perspective. Pinging involved editors Local hero, AcEagle12, Gugrak, Uniacademic, Maleschreiber, Durraz0. signed, Rosguill talk 14:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
Should we say in wikivoice that about 150 mujahideen participated in the conflict on the side of NLA or use the wording "There have been claims that..."? Alaexis ¿question? 18:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
According to some Macedonian politicians and Macedonian-language media, this possibility is already a certainty. Wild and unproven allegations linking the local ethnic Albanian rebel force, the NLA, with bin Laden and 'mujahidin' were published and broadcast in the aftermath of the 11 September attacks( page 21).
Because Islamic terrorism has become a pivotal issue in the media worldwide, reports and allegations quickly arose in the local and international press concerning connections between Islamic regimes in the Balkans and the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Whereas the Slavic-Macedonian press claimed to have identified connections between the Mujahedin, their allies and the Albanian rebels in the hills around Tetovo.....Similarly, in tension-ridden Macedonia, hard-line Slavs have consistently equated Albanians and terrorists, speculating about possible links between the Albanian groups and the Taliban or even Al Qaeda. For the time being, however, Western conflict management seems to worry about the provocations and obstructionism of Slavic hardliners rather than about external support for the Albanian rebels. A nationalist outcry in Macedonia, portraying the Albanian rebels as the "European face of Osama bin Laden" blocked the constitutional reforms promised in the Ohrid Agreements for weeks. Because most Macedonian Albanians are rather secular Muslims, these allegations were too obvious a ploy to sway Western resolve to implement the agreement and consolidate Macedonia as a multiethnic state.van Meurs 2013 [8] Durraz0 ( talk) 20:14, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
According to some Macedonian politicians and Macedonian-language media, this possibility is already a certainty. Wild and unproven allegations linking the local ethnic Albanian rebel force, the NLA, with bin Laden and 'mujahidin' were published and broadcast in the aftermath of the 11 September attackspage 21
Because Islamic terrorism has become a pivotal issue in the media worldwide, reports and allegations quickly arose in the local and international press concerning connections between Islamic regimes in the Balkans and the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Whereas the Slavic-Macedonian press claimed to have identified connections between the Mujahedin, their allies and the Albanian rebels in the hills around Tetovo.....Similarly, in tension-ridden Macedonia, hard-line Slavs have consistently equated Albanians and terrorists, speculating about possible links between the Albanian groups and the Taliban or even Al Qaeda. For the time being, however, Western conflict management seems to worry about the provocations and obstructionism of Slavic hardliners rather than about external support for the Albanian rebels. A nationalist outcry in Macedonia, portraying the Albanian rebels as the "European face of Osama bin Laden" blocked the constitutional reforms promised in the Ohrid Agreements for weeks. Because most Macedonian Albanians are rather secular Muslims, these allegations were too obvious a ploy to sway Western resolve to implement the agreement and consolidate Macedonia as a multiethnic state.[10].
when there are sources which deny these claims we should not state them as the RfC suggests in wikivoice. instead we should keep them as allegations. Durraz0 ( talk) 20:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
According to some Macedonian politicians and Macedonian-language media, this possibility is already a certainty. Wild and unproven allegations linking the local ethnic Albanian rebel force, the NLA, with bin Laden and 'mujahidin' were published and broadcast in the aftermath of the 11 September attacks( page 21).
Because Islamic terrorism has become a pivotal issue in the media worldwide, reports and allegations quickly arose in the local and international press concerning connections between Islamic regimes in the Balkans and the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Whereas the Slavic-Macedonian press claimed to have identified connections between the Mujahedin, their allies and the Albanian rebels in the hills around Tetovo.....Similarly, in tension-ridden Macedonia, hard-line Slavs have consistently equated Albanians and terrorists, speculating about possible links between the Albanian groups and the Taliban or even Al Qaeda. For the time being, however, Western conflict management seems to worry about the provocations and obstructionism of Slavic hardliners rather than about external support for the Albanian rebels. A nationalist outcry in Macedonia, portraying the Albanian rebels as the "European face of Osama bin Laden" blocked the constitutional reforms promised in the Ohrid Agreements for weeks. Because most Macedonian Albanians are rather secular Muslims, these allegations were too obvious a ploy to sway Western resolve to implement the agreement and consolidate Macedonia as a multiethnic state.
Rumors concerning Serbia's purported involvement in the crisis in Macedonia and the alleged presence of foreign mujahideen fighters in the country spread widely.
Following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks against the United States, the Macedonian government repeatedly used anti-terrorist rhetoric, invented threats to score political points, and raised the specter of Islamic fundamentalism among Macedonia's Albanians. After police shot and killed seven foreign men on the outskirts of Skopje in March, the government cast the incident as a thwarted "terrorist attack" on Western embassies in the capital. The Ministry of the Interior attempted to link the men with the NLA and al-Qaeda, and called them "mujahideen" fighters. Suspicions emerged when official versions of the incident changed, and the ministry rejected a request for international forensic experts to examine the bodies. The Wall Street Journal later reported that the victims were Pakistani and Indian migrants traveling to Greece to seek employment. The government continued, however, to label them "terrorists."
The Serb and Macedonian authorities are also fond of referring to their rebellious Albanian minorities as 'terrorists' - obviously more so since the events of 11 September 2001 in New York City. They have even suggested that there are links with Osama bin Laden and profess to be bewildered that the international 'Coalition against Terrorism' is not supporting them in their efforts to deal with these Albanian terrorists. Whether or not there were any mujahedin soldiers of fortune fighting in Kosovo or Macedonia , these wars were certainly not part of a jihad. Albanians, in general, are indeed Muslims, but Islamic fundamentalism is, for most of them, a foreign concept. Their struggle has been inspired by nationalism, not religious zeal.
your creation of the section where you described the Mujahideen thing as an allegation. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:35, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.In this case, the statement about mujahideen involvement in the 2001 events is heavily contested which means that it can't be presented as a direct statement in wikivoice.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 10:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
In cases where no consensus in bibliography exists, Wikipedia describes the debate between reliable authors as it is reflected in reliable sources.per Maleschreiber and the existence of any meaningful force is clearly disputed among WP:RS. Also endorse Botushali's comment that
In both the conflict of Kosovo and Macedonia, … Muslim foreigners were all labelled Mujahideen as a tactic for scaremongering and alienating the Albanian cause from the west.. Pincrete ( talk) 08:53, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
according to XYZ there were 150 mujahideen...this claim is rejected by ABC. signed, Rosguill talk 17:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.Also, in regards to your examples, those infoboxes are rather messy, complex and difficult to read. Plus, none of them specifically reference the Mujahideen, but rather Islamic Movements within the countries those conflicts took place in. Botushali ( talk) 00:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
[linked] with the NLA and al-Qaeda, and called them "mujahideen" fightersbut does not address the composition of the NLA, and Fraser (2002) explicitly equivocates on the question. So, absent top-quality RS postdating 2002 that directly dispute the presence of 150 mujahedin fighters (whether by stating categorically that there were no mujahedin or by stating that their existence is not known or cannot be verified) or valid concerns regarding the reliability of Thomas and Tziampiris, it seems appropriate to include in wikivoice both the presence of a small mujahedin detachment and its lack of ties to Al Qaeda/Taliban, as well as the misreporting of the Macedonian media regarding the latter. signed, Rosguill talk 20:11, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
It is highly unlikely that the NLA exceeded the 3000 active combat- ants at its peak.92 A more moderate estimate speaks of 1,000 to 1,200.^3 The rebel group probably consisted of at least six brigades. It is doubtful whether these so-called brigades fiilly submitted to a higher authority. However, given the post-crisis influx of NLA veterans into Ahmeti's political party DUI (Bashkimi Demokratik per Integrim - Democratic Union for Integration), most regional commanders probably paid alle- giance to Ahmeti. The NLA also attracted a number of mercenaries, former 'professional' combatants from Kosovo, Bosnia and the Presevo Valley. The FYR Macedonian security services claim involvement of Mujahedin fighters from Afghanistan and Pakistan. The mutilation and desecration of eight soldier's bodies at the Skopje-Tetovo highway massacre in Aug. 2001 indicated Mujahedin involvement as Albanians are not known for such cruelties at least up till this point. State security officials claim that the rest of the NLA comprised of local Albanian fighters who were paid or forced to participate but this allegation remains contentious.They say that the NLA was mostly local Albanians. They mention the presence of mercenaries from nearby Balkan countries. But on the Mujahideen presence, they treat it as a Macedonian claim for which the indication is the mutilation of some bodies. If such an elaborated source on the organization and structure of the NLA does not treat the Mujahideen presence as a fact, how can the article do the opposite? The article could also benefit from this source's elaboration on the total numbet of NLA's fighters. Durraz0 ( talk) 21:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
By 2000, the period when open hostilities broke out between the KLA and the Serbian forces, the KLA had grown into a large and organized militant formation with an effective logistical and financial network, thousands of new recruits, an abundance of imported weapons, and a relatively strong chain of command that united the loose association of clans forming the backbone of the guerrilla force, allowing thus for an efficient coordination of military activities beyond Kosovo. There are strong indications that the NLA drew on existing resources relating to the Kosovo conflict, providing rebels with a large pool of weapons and war-weary recruits (Heinemann-Grüder & Paes, 2001; Lund, 2005; Ripley, 2001). A high-rank state security official in the Republic of Macedonia explained that: "weapons were transferred to Kosovo after 1996—following the collapse of the Albanian pyramid investments—and then transferred to Macedonia. In 1998, small terrorist incidents (by Albanian extremists in Macedonia) included attacks against police stations and the Supreme Court. Half of that group was arrested; the other half went to Switzerland". The NLA drew heavily on connections with the former KLA, and however large the stockpiles of the NLA were, it is clear that connections to former KLA stockpiles and an extensive and active funding network provided them with many sources of weapons (Grillot, 2004). Several reported incidents and multiple arrests and weapons confiscations followed the subsequent stepping up of KFOR’s actions to seal the border with the Republic of Macedonia, thus confirming the suspicions that Kosovo was a major pool of combatants and equipment for the NLA (Koktsidis, 2014). The NLA’s ranks were comprised of a mixture of veterans and local Macedonian Albanian volunteers, adjoined by a number of mercenaries — mostly ‘professional’ combatants from Kosovo and Presevo.He then cites a regional analyst:
According to UNDP regional political analyst S.O.:. . . "the force of the Albanian rebels never went more than 1,200 people. They had five so-called brigades, but the fighting force never went more than several hundreds. A 30 to 40 per cent were mercenaries from outside, mostly people who came from Bosnia and Kosovo; people whose profession was war, and who were paid for participating in rebellions. The majority of the rest 60 per cent were Albanians who fought in Kosovo, and of course some Albanians from Macedonia."Next he gives more elaboration on the role of the KLA:
In our interview sessions, government officials suggested that practically the entire NLA has been made up of former KLA and UCPMB fighters. A senior government official confirmed that ‘Presevo fighters came in Macedonia … the NLA in Macedonia was a spillover result of Kosovo’s and Presevo’s exported conflicts’. The ethnic Albanian Helsinki Watch representative shares the view that the conflict in the Republic of Macedonia was, at least partly, encouraged by Kosovo radicals: ‘At the very beginning of 2001, rebels were small groups of Albanians who were born here and who later became part of the KLA in Kosovo’. However, he mentions that ‘these groups did not enjoy widespread support by the local Albanian population’. The participation of numerous leading figures among the extremists in Kosovo, the Republic of Macedonia, and southern Serbia confirms the strong links between militant and radical political actors in the region. A high-rank Macedonian Slav diplomat observed that: "the logistic support came from Kosovo as people there were trained and armed. A number of people did not have jobs and the Kosovo conflict was over while reforms and progress were too slow in Macedonia, providing a fertile context for exporting rebellion."Then he elaborates on the role of the organized crim for funding and organizing the insurgency, the role of Albanian diasporaetc. Nowhere does he mention any Mujahideen force. As noted, Koksitidis & ten Dam 2008 describe the Mujahideen presence as a Macedonian claim indicated by a bodies mutilation incident. Koksitidis 2019's conclusion is that
The NLA’s ranks were comprised of a mixture of veterans and local Macedonian Albanian volunteers, adjoined by a number of mercenaries — mostly ‘professional’ combatants from Kosovo and Presevo.. Why do not such detailed RS on the NLA say that the Mujahideen were part of the insurgency? Because indeed it is an unproven allegation. As Botushali and Pincrete above noted, some scaremongers described as "Mujahedeen" every foreign fighter with a Muslim background, regardless if they really had an Islamist agenda or not. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 15:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
Sometimes, authors use the mysterious term “foreign mercenaries” to refer to members of UÇK/KLA and UÇK/NLA; yet, during my frequent contacts with political and military leaders of both UÇK/KLA and UÇK/NLA, they have credibly dismissed any involvement of foreign fighters in the Albanian insurgency in both Kosovo and Macedonia[18]. Peshkopia dismisses the involvement of non-Albanian fighters in the conflict. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
account was 're-activated' after 9 years just to vote hereAlexikoua, the editor had returned to editing before this RfC was open. Btw, before "voting" make sure you understand what the RfC is about. It is not about "hiding", but whether the Mujahideen presence should be in wikivoice or attributed. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 23:14, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
going straight into a voting proccessThis is not a "voting process", we are not "voting" here and the conclusion of the RfC is not decided by counting "votes". The consensus is based on the strength of arguments based on relevant policies. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 11:26, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
I removed and readded and removed again that part [22] bc the many reverts the article has had made it difficult to figure out why and when it had been added/remove before. I will not revert again (the article already has too many reverts), but somone should verify whether the source backs the claim or not. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:20, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
https://balkaninsight.com/2014/05/16/macedonia-press-review-may-16-2014/ says 150 mujahideen where involved in the conflict Locallocallocal ( talk) 10:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Is UÇPMB involvet? Based Person ( talk) 21:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Hello. I'm starting this thread, because I question the POV, accuracy and consistency of the content in the infobox (especially the belligerents and the strength sections). I'd like to remind that there was never consensus to include the content. I also noticed that it was disputed by at least three editors by now, so it certainly needs to be discussed. There have been attempts to discuss it before, but no consensus prevailed then. The onus to start this discussion was actually on the editors who restored the content, but I decided to start it to avoid an edit war type of situation.
The issue with NATO being listed as a belligerent on Macedonia's side on the basis of KFOR is that KFOR as a 'peacekeeping' force operates only in Kosovo, and it has had a mandate to operate only there. The Tanuševci operation is often cited as proof that KFOR (and for that matter NATO) was a belligerent on Macedonia's side. [1] [2] While it's true that both sides cooperated for the operation, there's nothing that indicates KFOR was not doing anything that was not within their jurisdiction, i.e border control and keeping Kosovo safe which is per their mandate. [3] [4] [5] On top of that, it's disputed whether they actually entered Macedonia's territory for the operation. [6] So I think it's misleading to include the 300 peacekepeers in the strength section, because this article concerns things that definitely happened on Macedonian territory. As for the claim that they were involved in the battle of Nikuštak, the German source explicitly says that KFOR detained the 90 suspected NLA rebels on their side, in Kosovo. [7] It also refers to NATO's decision to deploy around 3000 troops to Macedonia, which were troops intended for the Operation Essential Harvest. I'd like to also point here to a statement by Lord Robertson on record in an interview with a Macedonian newspaper that NATO's mission in Macedonia is not "pro-Albanian" or "pro-Macedonian". [8] If NATO was really a belligerent on Macedonia's side, they wouldn't come out with such statements. Not to mention that both NATO and KFOR have been also both criticized for their response regarding Macedonia. [9] As for the NATO troops, they were deployed after a ceasefire, the Ohrid Framework Agreement and on request by the Macedonian government. [10] [11] [12] Along with Operation Amber Fox, it was a non-hostile 'peace' operation. [13] [14] [15] The NLA also agreed to voluntarily give up their weapons, not to mention also that their members were amnestied under the auspice of NATO. [16] [17] [18] [19] NATO and KFOR not being sitting ducks all the time does not make them a belligerent for either side. Compared to their role in Kosovo, NATO's role in Macedonia was limited, restricted and indirect. [20] [21] No NATO troops ever participated directly in hostilities on Macedonian territory. I see Phillips' source cited as proof that NATO was a belligerent on Macedonia's side, but I've found quite the contrary there, so I'll ask for pages within the source which support the notion that it was a belligerent.
The next issue is whether to include those who provided military aid, military/arms support and/or diplomatic support in the belligerents field. I see Turkey included solely because it expressed messages of support to Macedonia, but such support was also expressed by Albania, Russia, US and Britain. The latter two, apart from diplomatic support, also provided military aid to Macedonia. The EU also provided diplomatic support. So far I haven't seen any proof that any of the ones listed in the belligerents field directly participated in the hostilities. For Ukraine, the Ukrainian sources deny that they were directly involved, [22] [23] while Western sources say that Ukrainian mercenary pilots were involved, at least for the Battle of Tetovo. [24] [25] I'd like to point out however that mercenaries are distinct from soldiers, so I'd like to see proof that the Ukrainian Air Force was actually involved. I'll also wait for quotation from the Bugajski's source to see what it has to say about the issue. I hope that this matter with the belligerents gets resolved, because it's getting annoying to have back and forth discussions. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 10:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
References
SKOPJE, Macedonia, March 8 — United States-led peacekeeping troops in southern Kosovo occupied a village on the border with Macedonia today, as part of a coordinated move with Macedonian military forces through the night and morning to flush out ethnic Albanian rebels from their mountain base.
StephenMacky1 ( talk) 10:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
There are graveyards of around 300 NLA soldiers dead from this conflict this post is full of lies they never destroyed a mi 24 in fact they didnt even know how to use javelins there is evidence with video how they just threw javelins away and ran off the whole equipment was captured before they clould even learn to use it 185.100.244.15 ( talk) 14:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
They never captured APCs they never destroyed Mi24 and m12 This is totaly fake report everyone 185.100.245.167 ( talk) 12:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
I wrote about this months ago but still no reply from any wikipedia editor here. There is a constant misuse of sources on several pages and several "battles" are completely irrelevant and only written to invent "NLA victory" in cases where the only sources are Albanian. These are the battles of Matejce, Slupcane and Vaksince where fighting was stopped by the large number of civlillians present in the villages, the first source for NLA victory on Matejce is from Albanian journalist and unnoficcial spokesman for the NLA Iso Rusi which states that the battle ended on June 5th but there are several sources that fighting was ongoing past June 6 and June 11th and that the fighting was stopped in order to allow humanitarian help for the trapped villagers and to restore the water supply to the area.
> https://www.hrw.org/news/2001/06/06/macedonia-albanian-rebel-abuses-serb-civilians > https://www.rferl.org/a/1096658.html (Skopje, 11 June 2001 (RFE/RL) -- Macedonian state radio says the army has been ordered to suspend its military operations in the Kumanovo-Lipkovo region, effective at noon today (1200 Prague time). The Macedonian army suspended its shelling of ethnic Albanian rebel positions after a morning of fighting. The radio says fighting around the villages of Slupcane, Orizare, and Matejce had subsided)...( Dimitrov said the halt in shelling was called to allow international officials to enter the area and inspect the damage to pumps supplying water to the city of Kumanovo.)
THe other source used to claim an NLA victory is an AP archive from June 18th which still mentions Macedonian Army units in the village and a no mans land between the Macedonians and the NLA, furthermore the quote that the NLA won is Albanians who only claim that the Macedonian Army lost one part of the village.
(The village had been divided between rebel ethnic Albanians and the Macedonian army. But the Macedonians, who according to the Albanians, only had three tanks in Matejce, lost their part of the village after a fierce battle. This was one of their tanks, now in no man's land. Nobody can reach the tank because of sniper fire from both sides, but the Albanians say eight dead Macedonian soldiers lie inside.)
It is clear the village was still contested beyond the arbitrary timescale imposed by the Albanian source and it is clear the Macedonian security forces did not withdraw or halt their.
The one other source used on Vaksince, Slupcane and Matejce is John Philips who uses the Macedonian General Pande Petrovski as a source regarding the "mutiny" of the Tigers police force and this is used as proof of an operational failure regarding Operation Vaksince which by all sources even the ones used in the articles was a Macedonian victory, the "mutiny" of the tigers did not stop the mission in any way, shape or form. This is the one source used on several of these pages as NLA victory when it is clear it does not even refer to said villages.
> http://www.makedonijaese.com/Svedoshtva%20-%202001.pdf
All of these "battles" should be merged into one like the battle of Tetovo, and the result absolutely should be:
Ohrid Framework Agreement Militarily inconclusive Macedonian offensives stopped because of civilian presence
GoofyGoofyson ( talk) 15:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Lipkovo/Kumanovo front. One journalistic article is not enough for a whole front article and it would be largely original research. Your only options are to try to improve the existing articles or to formally propose that they be merged into this article. For the latter option, you'll need to make a good case though. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 18:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Please note that Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters states against "result" that "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." The infobox has been amended to reflect this. Please read the template "result" guidance in full before amending or reverting. It would probably be best to discuss any proposed change here first to seek consensus. Thanks! Annwfwn ( talk) 00:41, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2001 insurgency in Macedonia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Kumanovo water crisis was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 12 June 2021 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into 2001 insurgency in Macedonia. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
The contents of the List of books about Albanian terrorism in 2001 in Macedonia page were merged into 2001 insurgency in Macedonia on 28 July 2014. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Per the recent name change by the country's government. CentreLeftRight ✉ 22:40, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change ONA casualties to: 84(Oficially stated by ONA), over 2000( unoficially by bodies counted). 64 is incorrect 37.25.87.202 ( talk) 06:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
NATO was not part of the conflict yet Albanian editors daily add it to the Macedonian side of the conflict, NATO was a mediator which more than once helped the NLA. They also add Bulgaria and Turkey.
Bulgaria donated tanks in 1999 and had nothing to do with the conflict in 2001. Turkey stated their support for the government which is also what all governments including the Albanian government did. This is from the citation used to add Turkey to the "Support" part
>Albania gave full support to the Macedonian government
( https://hal.science/hal-00583229/document)
As for NATO
>JSTOR ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/24919730?seq=12#metadata_info_tab_contents)
Quote: But you have to remember that the government in Skopje did not find allies in NATO nor in the EU. Quote: This policy should not be treated as a desire to help the Macedonians
NATO rescued the NLA from Aracinovo and was routinely accused by the Macedonian government of helping the NLA, stop this. GoofyGoofyson ( talk) 13:23, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
The Tanuševci Operation was a Joint military operation against the NLA, KFOR started the operation by attacking NLA troops in Tanuševci which led to a retreat by the NLA. Macedonian troops later ambushed the retreating NLA troops! All of this happened in Macedonian territory this isn't even the only NATO military operation in the conflict! You must have forgotten about Operation Essential Harvest and Operation Amber Fox Based.shqiptar.frompirok ( talk) 13:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Me and countless other editors like Karadakli230 and Albnian 7 have given more than enough sources for our edits but you delate them without any reason Based.shqiptar.frompirok ( talk) 13:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello Alaexis, As already Based Shqiptar from Pirok has said, he and I have already clearly stated sources and NATO has helped the Macedonian troops against the NLA, wrm we should then not include them purely in relation to Bulgaria in the source is the Bulgaria military Macedonia supported against the rebels Albanian 7 ( talk) 23:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
How is it an Over-Simplification? NATO literally attacked a major stronghold in Tanuševci and even told the NLA to Surrender to Macedonian forces https://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/08/world/nato-troops-help-macedonians-drive-away-ethnic-albanian-rebels.html https://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/05/17/macedonia.03/index.html
Further more the NATO Secretary General George Robertson referred to the NLa as "a bunch of murderous thugs" http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/05/07/macedonia.fighting.04/index.html
NATO also started Operation Essential Harvest, in which they disarmed Albanian rebels who were fighting for the Control of Tetovo https://books.google.de/books?id=SB1OrH8iZtcC&redir_esc=y Karadakli230 ( talk) 01:42, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
92.53.57.136 ( talk) 19:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
The albanian NLA had around 400 dead soldiers you can confirm this by going on their 2001 conflict graveyards in Aracinovo, Grusino and Kicevo.
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add Russia on side of Macedonia because they helped them by sending tanks https://greekcitytimes.com/2022/07/30/skopje-sends-t-72-tanks-ukraine/ here is the source Corrector MK ( talk) 16:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
the sources refer an amount of volunteers who joined this war due to religious reasons. this is not a "belligerent" as they were members of the NLA. during the Bosnian war, there was an entire mujahideen battalion. yet it is not listed as a belligerent as it was not. a unit/reason for fighters to fight a conflict is not the same as a belligerent. Durraz0 ( talk) 12:51, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Botushali, I've restored information based on a reliable source. Nigel mentions a unit of mujahedin in his Yugoslav wars, p. 53 ("There was also an independent unit of 150 Mujahedin from Afghanistan, Bosnia and Turkey under Selim Ferit.") Alaexis ¿question? 05:48, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Also, it's you who made the most reverts recently. Please be aware of the WP:3RR rule. Alaexis ¿question? 05:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Since I added this section, I'll elaborate my views - there are reliable sources talking about Mujahideen presence as fact. This cannot be denied nor can it be minimized. There are also sources which state that it is important to note such presence. They are presented in the section.
There are also sources which talk about Macedonian allegations of Al-Qaeda, Taliban and Mujahideen connections with the NLA and ANA. Those have also been added, although the bulk talk about allegations of ties with the Taliban, Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, not the Mujahideen.
Furthermore, the Mujahideen are presented as a sub-belligerent (not belligerent) of the NLA, as all RS confirming their presence talks about them being part of the NLA.
Since I've seen arguements that "x doesn't mention them in the infobox, so they shouldn't be mentioned here", I'll like to bring attention to the fact that there are pages which do mention alleged belligerents, which I've listed above, per the request of Ktrimi991 - those are March 1949 Syrian coup d'état, Nojeh coup plot, Somali Civil War (2009–present) and Kivu conflict.
The edit which was reverted had the Mujahideen as a sub-belligerent of the NLA, with text in brackets saying "Alleged" and a note leading to the section elaborating more on their presence. It is without a doubt the most neutral solution, since the fact that multiple reliable sources consider their presence as fact cannot be minimized, nor can the fact that a few reliable sources also consider their presence as allegations. Both viewpoints have been presented. Regards. Kluche ( talk) 09:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Because Islamic terrorism has become a pivotal issue in the media worldwide, reports and allegations quickly arose in the local and international press concerning connections between Islamic regimes in the Balkans and the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Whereas the Slavic-Macedonian press claimed to have identified connections between the Mujahedin, their allies and the Albanian rebels in the hills around Tetovo.....Similarly, in tension-ridden Macedonia, hard-line Slavs have consistently equated Albanians and terrorists, speculating about possible links between the Albanian groups and the Taliban or even Al Qaeda. For the time being, however, Western conflict management seems to worry about the provocations and obstructionism of Slavic hardliners rather than about external support for the Albanian rebels. A nationalist outcry in Macedonia, portraying the Albanian rebels as the "European face of Osama bin Laden" blocked the constitutional reforms promised in the Ohrid Agreements for weeks. Because most Macedonian Albanians are rather secular Muslims, these allegations were too obvious a ploy to sway Western resolve to implement the agreement and consolidate Macedonia as a multiethnic state.
The picture, however, is less clear in Macedonia, which has a significant Muslim population and a recent history of armed conflict. Macedonian-language media have, since 2001, consistently reported that Islamic extremists have been active in Macedonia, even alleging that the ANA (Albanian National Army; not to be confused with the armed forces of the republic of Albania) possessed concrete links with Osama bin Laden and Mujahedin.
Rumors concerning Serbia's purported involvement in the crisis in Macedonia and the alleged presence of foreign mujahideen fighters in the country spread widely.
Following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks against the United States, the Macedonian government repeatedly used anti-terrorist rhetoric, invented threats to score political points, and raised the specter of Islamic fundamentalism among Macedonia's Albanians. After police shot and killed seven foreign men on the outskirts of Skopje in March, the government cast the incident as a thwarted "terrorist attack" on Western embassies in the capital. The Ministry of the Interior attempted to link the men with the NLA and al-Qaeda, and called them "mujahideen" fighters. Suspicions emerged when official versions of the incident changed, and the ministry rejected a request for international forensic experts to examine the bodies. The Wall Street Journal later reported that the victims were Pakistani and Indian migrants traveling to Greece to seek employment. The government continued, however, to label them "terrorists."
Whether or not there were any mujahedin soldiers of fortune fighting in Kosovo or Macedonia , these wars were certainly not part of a jihad.
None of the sources says that there were no mujahideen in Macedonia at that timeAnd also they do not say there were Mujahideen involved in the conflict. They treat that as an unproven claim. Hence when multiple RS question the Mujahideen presence, that presence can't be treated as an unquestionable fact. On the "stable version", there is no "stable version". Since the Mujahideen were added, they have been continuosly removed and readded. That is not a "stable version". Ktrimi991 ( talk) 19:22, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
For the zillionth time, do not cite WP:NOTEVERYTHING. That is sth other that what you seem to think it to be. The section can't have only 3 or 4 sentences as you propose. Sections are supposed to elaborate on a certain issue or topic. I added "according to" and "he notes/adds" because they are just opinions, not necessarily facts. Controversial articles have such wording. Btw, can you provide a quote from Anthony Tucler Jones? A quote could help editors amd readers to verify what he says. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:26, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.Information which isn't supported as a certainty in bibliography should stay out of infoboxes because it doesn't help readers, but causes more confusion. It is methodologically more pertinent to write the section itself and then move on to such details like infobox structure.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:28, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
It's wrong to say that there are claims about the presence of 150 mujahideen as we have 3 sources which mention 150 mujahideen without any caveats
There was also an independent unit of 150 Mujahedin from Afghanistan, Bosnia and Turkey under Selim Ferit.
In Macedonia, about 150 Mujahideen from Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Turkey ... supported the activities of KLA
However, it is important to note that some 150 mujahedin did fight in [the NLA] ranks but played a minor role
The Macedonian government's scaremongering and false claims of Al-Qaeda involvement do not in any way disqualify these sources. Alaexis ¿question? 18:29, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
According to some Macedonian politicians and Macedonian-language media, this possibility is already a certainty. Wild and unproven allegations linking the local ethnic Albanian rebel force, the NLA, with bin Laden and 'mujahidin' were published and broadcast in the aftermath of the 11 September attacks( page 21). Ktrimi991 ( talk) 15:32, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
While we are at it, who said that the mujahideen played a minor role in the conflict? Can you provide the citation for that? Alaexis ¿question? 09:32, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
I propose that Mujahideen be removed from the infobox. In the absence of any RS alleging more than a minor, non-autonomous role at most, it is absurd to include in the infobox. I honestly don't think that we should need an RfC for this question, as removing it is plainly the correct decision from a guideline perspective. Pinging involved editors Local hero, AcEagle12, Gugrak, Uniacademic, Maleschreiber, Durraz0. signed, Rosguill talk 14:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
Should we say in wikivoice that about 150 mujahideen participated in the conflict on the side of NLA or use the wording "There have been claims that..."? Alaexis ¿question? 18:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
According to some Macedonian politicians and Macedonian-language media, this possibility is already a certainty. Wild and unproven allegations linking the local ethnic Albanian rebel force, the NLA, with bin Laden and 'mujahidin' were published and broadcast in the aftermath of the 11 September attacks( page 21).
Because Islamic terrorism has become a pivotal issue in the media worldwide, reports and allegations quickly arose in the local and international press concerning connections between Islamic regimes in the Balkans and the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Whereas the Slavic-Macedonian press claimed to have identified connections between the Mujahedin, their allies and the Albanian rebels in the hills around Tetovo.....Similarly, in tension-ridden Macedonia, hard-line Slavs have consistently equated Albanians and terrorists, speculating about possible links between the Albanian groups and the Taliban or even Al Qaeda. For the time being, however, Western conflict management seems to worry about the provocations and obstructionism of Slavic hardliners rather than about external support for the Albanian rebels. A nationalist outcry in Macedonia, portraying the Albanian rebels as the "European face of Osama bin Laden" blocked the constitutional reforms promised in the Ohrid Agreements for weeks. Because most Macedonian Albanians are rather secular Muslims, these allegations were too obvious a ploy to sway Western resolve to implement the agreement and consolidate Macedonia as a multiethnic state.van Meurs 2013 [8] Durraz0 ( talk) 20:14, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
According to some Macedonian politicians and Macedonian-language media, this possibility is already a certainty. Wild and unproven allegations linking the local ethnic Albanian rebel force, the NLA, with bin Laden and 'mujahidin' were published and broadcast in the aftermath of the 11 September attackspage 21
Because Islamic terrorism has become a pivotal issue in the media worldwide, reports and allegations quickly arose in the local and international press concerning connections between Islamic regimes in the Balkans and the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Whereas the Slavic-Macedonian press claimed to have identified connections between the Mujahedin, their allies and the Albanian rebels in the hills around Tetovo.....Similarly, in tension-ridden Macedonia, hard-line Slavs have consistently equated Albanians and terrorists, speculating about possible links between the Albanian groups and the Taliban or even Al Qaeda. For the time being, however, Western conflict management seems to worry about the provocations and obstructionism of Slavic hardliners rather than about external support for the Albanian rebels. A nationalist outcry in Macedonia, portraying the Albanian rebels as the "European face of Osama bin Laden" blocked the constitutional reforms promised in the Ohrid Agreements for weeks. Because most Macedonian Albanians are rather secular Muslims, these allegations were too obvious a ploy to sway Western resolve to implement the agreement and consolidate Macedonia as a multiethnic state.[10].
when there are sources which deny these claims we should not state them as the RfC suggests in wikivoice. instead we should keep them as allegations. Durraz0 ( talk) 20:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
According to some Macedonian politicians and Macedonian-language media, this possibility is already a certainty. Wild and unproven allegations linking the local ethnic Albanian rebel force, the NLA, with bin Laden and 'mujahidin' were published and broadcast in the aftermath of the 11 September attacks( page 21).
Because Islamic terrorism has become a pivotal issue in the media worldwide, reports and allegations quickly arose in the local and international press concerning connections between Islamic regimes in the Balkans and the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Whereas the Slavic-Macedonian press claimed to have identified connections between the Mujahedin, their allies and the Albanian rebels in the hills around Tetovo.....Similarly, in tension-ridden Macedonia, hard-line Slavs have consistently equated Albanians and terrorists, speculating about possible links between the Albanian groups and the Taliban or even Al Qaeda. For the time being, however, Western conflict management seems to worry about the provocations and obstructionism of Slavic hardliners rather than about external support for the Albanian rebels. A nationalist outcry in Macedonia, portraying the Albanian rebels as the "European face of Osama bin Laden" blocked the constitutional reforms promised in the Ohrid Agreements for weeks. Because most Macedonian Albanians are rather secular Muslims, these allegations were too obvious a ploy to sway Western resolve to implement the agreement and consolidate Macedonia as a multiethnic state.
Rumors concerning Serbia's purported involvement in the crisis in Macedonia and the alleged presence of foreign mujahideen fighters in the country spread widely.
Following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks against the United States, the Macedonian government repeatedly used anti-terrorist rhetoric, invented threats to score political points, and raised the specter of Islamic fundamentalism among Macedonia's Albanians. After police shot and killed seven foreign men on the outskirts of Skopje in March, the government cast the incident as a thwarted "terrorist attack" on Western embassies in the capital. The Ministry of the Interior attempted to link the men with the NLA and al-Qaeda, and called them "mujahideen" fighters. Suspicions emerged when official versions of the incident changed, and the ministry rejected a request for international forensic experts to examine the bodies. The Wall Street Journal later reported that the victims were Pakistani and Indian migrants traveling to Greece to seek employment. The government continued, however, to label them "terrorists."
The Serb and Macedonian authorities are also fond of referring to their rebellious Albanian minorities as 'terrorists' - obviously more so since the events of 11 September 2001 in New York City. They have even suggested that there are links with Osama bin Laden and profess to be bewildered that the international 'Coalition against Terrorism' is not supporting them in their efforts to deal with these Albanian terrorists. Whether or not there were any mujahedin soldiers of fortune fighting in Kosovo or Macedonia , these wars were certainly not part of a jihad. Albanians, in general, are indeed Muslims, but Islamic fundamentalism is, for most of them, a foreign concept. Their struggle has been inspired by nationalism, not religious zeal.
your creation of the section where you described the Mujahideen thing as an allegation. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:35, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.In this case, the statement about mujahideen involvement in the 2001 events is heavily contested which means that it can't be presented as a direct statement in wikivoice.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 10:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
In cases where no consensus in bibliography exists, Wikipedia describes the debate between reliable authors as it is reflected in reliable sources.per Maleschreiber and the existence of any meaningful force is clearly disputed among WP:RS. Also endorse Botushali's comment that
In both the conflict of Kosovo and Macedonia, … Muslim foreigners were all labelled Mujahideen as a tactic for scaremongering and alienating the Albanian cause from the west.. Pincrete ( talk) 08:53, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
according to XYZ there were 150 mujahideen...this claim is rejected by ABC. signed, Rosguill talk 17:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.Also, in regards to your examples, those infoboxes are rather messy, complex and difficult to read. Plus, none of them specifically reference the Mujahideen, but rather Islamic Movements within the countries those conflicts took place in. Botushali ( talk) 00:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
[linked] with the NLA and al-Qaeda, and called them "mujahideen" fightersbut does not address the composition of the NLA, and Fraser (2002) explicitly equivocates on the question. So, absent top-quality RS postdating 2002 that directly dispute the presence of 150 mujahedin fighters (whether by stating categorically that there were no mujahedin or by stating that their existence is not known or cannot be verified) or valid concerns regarding the reliability of Thomas and Tziampiris, it seems appropriate to include in wikivoice both the presence of a small mujahedin detachment and its lack of ties to Al Qaeda/Taliban, as well as the misreporting of the Macedonian media regarding the latter. signed, Rosguill talk 20:11, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
It is highly unlikely that the NLA exceeded the 3000 active combat- ants at its peak.92 A more moderate estimate speaks of 1,000 to 1,200.^3 The rebel group probably consisted of at least six brigades. It is doubtful whether these so-called brigades fiilly submitted to a higher authority. However, given the post-crisis influx of NLA veterans into Ahmeti's political party DUI (Bashkimi Demokratik per Integrim - Democratic Union for Integration), most regional commanders probably paid alle- giance to Ahmeti. The NLA also attracted a number of mercenaries, former 'professional' combatants from Kosovo, Bosnia and the Presevo Valley. The FYR Macedonian security services claim involvement of Mujahedin fighters from Afghanistan and Pakistan. The mutilation and desecration of eight soldier's bodies at the Skopje-Tetovo highway massacre in Aug. 2001 indicated Mujahedin involvement as Albanians are not known for such cruelties at least up till this point. State security officials claim that the rest of the NLA comprised of local Albanian fighters who were paid or forced to participate but this allegation remains contentious.They say that the NLA was mostly local Albanians. They mention the presence of mercenaries from nearby Balkan countries. But on the Mujahideen presence, they treat it as a Macedonian claim for which the indication is the mutilation of some bodies. If such an elaborated source on the organization and structure of the NLA does not treat the Mujahideen presence as a fact, how can the article do the opposite? The article could also benefit from this source's elaboration on the total numbet of NLA's fighters. Durraz0 ( talk) 21:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
By 2000, the period when open hostilities broke out between the KLA and the Serbian forces, the KLA had grown into a large and organized militant formation with an effective logistical and financial network, thousands of new recruits, an abundance of imported weapons, and a relatively strong chain of command that united the loose association of clans forming the backbone of the guerrilla force, allowing thus for an efficient coordination of military activities beyond Kosovo. There are strong indications that the NLA drew on existing resources relating to the Kosovo conflict, providing rebels with a large pool of weapons and war-weary recruits (Heinemann-Grüder & Paes, 2001; Lund, 2005; Ripley, 2001). A high-rank state security official in the Republic of Macedonia explained that: "weapons were transferred to Kosovo after 1996—following the collapse of the Albanian pyramid investments—and then transferred to Macedonia. In 1998, small terrorist incidents (by Albanian extremists in Macedonia) included attacks against police stations and the Supreme Court. Half of that group was arrested; the other half went to Switzerland". The NLA drew heavily on connections with the former KLA, and however large the stockpiles of the NLA were, it is clear that connections to former KLA stockpiles and an extensive and active funding network provided them with many sources of weapons (Grillot, 2004). Several reported incidents and multiple arrests and weapons confiscations followed the subsequent stepping up of KFOR’s actions to seal the border with the Republic of Macedonia, thus confirming the suspicions that Kosovo was a major pool of combatants and equipment for the NLA (Koktsidis, 2014). The NLA’s ranks were comprised of a mixture of veterans and local Macedonian Albanian volunteers, adjoined by a number of mercenaries — mostly ‘professional’ combatants from Kosovo and Presevo.He then cites a regional analyst:
According to UNDP regional political analyst S.O.:. . . "the force of the Albanian rebels never went more than 1,200 people. They had five so-called brigades, but the fighting force never went more than several hundreds. A 30 to 40 per cent were mercenaries from outside, mostly people who came from Bosnia and Kosovo; people whose profession was war, and who were paid for participating in rebellions. The majority of the rest 60 per cent were Albanians who fought in Kosovo, and of course some Albanians from Macedonia."Next he gives more elaboration on the role of the KLA:
In our interview sessions, government officials suggested that practically the entire NLA has been made up of former KLA and UCPMB fighters. A senior government official confirmed that ‘Presevo fighters came in Macedonia … the NLA in Macedonia was a spillover result of Kosovo’s and Presevo’s exported conflicts’. The ethnic Albanian Helsinki Watch representative shares the view that the conflict in the Republic of Macedonia was, at least partly, encouraged by Kosovo radicals: ‘At the very beginning of 2001, rebels were small groups of Albanians who were born here and who later became part of the KLA in Kosovo’. However, he mentions that ‘these groups did not enjoy widespread support by the local Albanian population’. The participation of numerous leading figures among the extremists in Kosovo, the Republic of Macedonia, and southern Serbia confirms the strong links between militant and radical political actors in the region. A high-rank Macedonian Slav diplomat observed that: "the logistic support came from Kosovo as people there were trained and armed. A number of people did not have jobs and the Kosovo conflict was over while reforms and progress were too slow in Macedonia, providing a fertile context for exporting rebellion."Then he elaborates on the role of the organized crim for funding and organizing the insurgency, the role of Albanian diasporaetc. Nowhere does he mention any Mujahideen force. As noted, Koksitidis & ten Dam 2008 describe the Mujahideen presence as a Macedonian claim indicated by a bodies mutilation incident. Koksitidis 2019's conclusion is that
The NLA’s ranks were comprised of a mixture of veterans and local Macedonian Albanian volunteers, adjoined by a number of mercenaries — mostly ‘professional’ combatants from Kosovo and Presevo.. Why do not such detailed RS on the NLA say that the Mujahideen were part of the insurgency? Because indeed it is an unproven allegation. As Botushali and Pincrete above noted, some scaremongers described as "Mujahedeen" every foreign fighter with a Muslim background, regardless if they really had an Islamist agenda or not. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 15:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
Sometimes, authors use the mysterious term “foreign mercenaries” to refer to members of UÇK/KLA and UÇK/NLA; yet, during my frequent contacts with political and military leaders of both UÇK/KLA and UÇK/NLA, they have credibly dismissed any involvement of foreign fighters in the Albanian insurgency in both Kosovo and Macedonia[18]. Peshkopia dismisses the involvement of non-Albanian fighters in the conflict. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
account was 're-activated' after 9 years just to vote hereAlexikoua, the editor had returned to editing before this RfC was open. Btw, before "voting" make sure you understand what the RfC is about. It is not about "hiding", but whether the Mujahideen presence should be in wikivoice or attributed. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 23:14, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
going straight into a voting proccessThis is not a "voting process", we are not "voting" here and the conclusion of the RfC is not decided by counting "votes". The consensus is based on the strength of arguments based on relevant policies. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 11:26, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
I removed and readded and removed again that part [22] bc the many reverts the article has had made it difficult to figure out why and when it had been added/remove before. I will not revert again (the article already has too many reverts), but somone should verify whether the source backs the claim or not. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:20, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
https://balkaninsight.com/2014/05/16/macedonia-press-review-may-16-2014/ says 150 mujahideen where involved in the conflict Locallocallocal ( talk) 10:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Is UÇPMB involvet? Based Person ( talk) 21:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Hello. I'm starting this thread, because I question the POV, accuracy and consistency of the content in the infobox (especially the belligerents and the strength sections). I'd like to remind that there was never consensus to include the content. I also noticed that it was disputed by at least three editors by now, so it certainly needs to be discussed. There have been attempts to discuss it before, but no consensus prevailed then. The onus to start this discussion was actually on the editors who restored the content, but I decided to start it to avoid an edit war type of situation.
The issue with NATO being listed as a belligerent on Macedonia's side on the basis of KFOR is that KFOR as a 'peacekeeping' force operates only in Kosovo, and it has had a mandate to operate only there. The Tanuševci operation is often cited as proof that KFOR (and for that matter NATO) was a belligerent on Macedonia's side. [1] [2] While it's true that both sides cooperated for the operation, there's nothing that indicates KFOR was not doing anything that was not within their jurisdiction, i.e border control and keeping Kosovo safe which is per their mandate. [3] [4] [5] On top of that, it's disputed whether they actually entered Macedonia's territory for the operation. [6] So I think it's misleading to include the 300 peacekepeers in the strength section, because this article concerns things that definitely happened on Macedonian territory. As for the claim that they were involved in the battle of Nikuštak, the German source explicitly says that KFOR detained the 90 suspected NLA rebels on their side, in Kosovo. [7] It also refers to NATO's decision to deploy around 3000 troops to Macedonia, which were troops intended for the Operation Essential Harvest. I'd like to also point here to a statement by Lord Robertson on record in an interview with a Macedonian newspaper that NATO's mission in Macedonia is not "pro-Albanian" or "pro-Macedonian". [8] If NATO was really a belligerent on Macedonia's side, they wouldn't come out with such statements. Not to mention that both NATO and KFOR have been also both criticized for their response regarding Macedonia. [9] As for the NATO troops, they were deployed after a ceasefire, the Ohrid Framework Agreement and on request by the Macedonian government. [10] [11] [12] Along with Operation Amber Fox, it was a non-hostile 'peace' operation. [13] [14] [15] The NLA also agreed to voluntarily give up their weapons, not to mention also that their members were amnestied under the auspice of NATO. [16] [17] [18] [19] NATO and KFOR not being sitting ducks all the time does not make them a belligerent for either side. Compared to their role in Kosovo, NATO's role in Macedonia was limited, restricted and indirect. [20] [21] No NATO troops ever participated directly in hostilities on Macedonian territory. I see Phillips' source cited as proof that NATO was a belligerent on Macedonia's side, but I've found quite the contrary there, so I'll ask for pages within the source which support the notion that it was a belligerent.
The next issue is whether to include those who provided military aid, military/arms support and/or diplomatic support in the belligerents field. I see Turkey included solely because it expressed messages of support to Macedonia, but such support was also expressed by Albania, Russia, US and Britain. The latter two, apart from diplomatic support, also provided military aid to Macedonia. The EU also provided diplomatic support. So far I haven't seen any proof that any of the ones listed in the belligerents field directly participated in the hostilities. For Ukraine, the Ukrainian sources deny that they were directly involved, [22] [23] while Western sources say that Ukrainian mercenary pilots were involved, at least for the Battle of Tetovo. [24] [25] I'd like to point out however that mercenaries are distinct from soldiers, so I'd like to see proof that the Ukrainian Air Force was actually involved. I'll also wait for quotation from the Bugajski's source to see what it has to say about the issue. I hope that this matter with the belligerents gets resolved, because it's getting annoying to have back and forth discussions. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 10:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
References
SKOPJE, Macedonia, March 8 — United States-led peacekeeping troops in southern Kosovo occupied a village on the border with Macedonia today, as part of a coordinated move with Macedonian military forces through the night and morning to flush out ethnic Albanian rebels from their mountain base.
StephenMacky1 ( talk) 10:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
There are graveyards of around 300 NLA soldiers dead from this conflict this post is full of lies they never destroyed a mi 24 in fact they didnt even know how to use javelins there is evidence with video how they just threw javelins away and ran off the whole equipment was captured before they clould even learn to use it 185.100.244.15 ( talk) 14:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
They never captured APCs they never destroyed Mi24 and m12 This is totaly fake report everyone 185.100.245.167 ( talk) 12:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
I wrote about this months ago but still no reply from any wikipedia editor here. There is a constant misuse of sources on several pages and several "battles" are completely irrelevant and only written to invent "NLA victory" in cases where the only sources are Albanian. These are the battles of Matejce, Slupcane and Vaksince where fighting was stopped by the large number of civlillians present in the villages, the first source for NLA victory on Matejce is from Albanian journalist and unnoficcial spokesman for the NLA Iso Rusi which states that the battle ended on June 5th but there are several sources that fighting was ongoing past June 6 and June 11th and that the fighting was stopped in order to allow humanitarian help for the trapped villagers and to restore the water supply to the area.
> https://www.hrw.org/news/2001/06/06/macedonia-albanian-rebel-abuses-serb-civilians > https://www.rferl.org/a/1096658.html (Skopje, 11 June 2001 (RFE/RL) -- Macedonian state radio says the army has been ordered to suspend its military operations in the Kumanovo-Lipkovo region, effective at noon today (1200 Prague time). The Macedonian army suspended its shelling of ethnic Albanian rebel positions after a morning of fighting. The radio says fighting around the villages of Slupcane, Orizare, and Matejce had subsided)...( Dimitrov said the halt in shelling was called to allow international officials to enter the area and inspect the damage to pumps supplying water to the city of Kumanovo.)
THe other source used to claim an NLA victory is an AP archive from June 18th which still mentions Macedonian Army units in the village and a no mans land between the Macedonians and the NLA, furthermore the quote that the NLA won is Albanians who only claim that the Macedonian Army lost one part of the village.
(The village had been divided between rebel ethnic Albanians and the Macedonian army. But the Macedonians, who according to the Albanians, only had three tanks in Matejce, lost their part of the village after a fierce battle. This was one of their tanks, now in no man's land. Nobody can reach the tank because of sniper fire from both sides, but the Albanians say eight dead Macedonian soldiers lie inside.)
It is clear the village was still contested beyond the arbitrary timescale imposed by the Albanian source and it is clear the Macedonian security forces did not withdraw or halt their.
The one other source used on Vaksince, Slupcane and Matejce is John Philips who uses the Macedonian General Pande Petrovski as a source regarding the "mutiny" of the Tigers police force and this is used as proof of an operational failure regarding Operation Vaksince which by all sources even the ones used in the articles was a Macedonian victory, the "mutiny" of the tigers did not stop the mission in any way, shape or form. This is the one source used on several of these pages as NLA victory when it is clear it does not even refer to said villages.
> http://www.makedonijaese.com/Svedoshtva%20-%202001.pdf
All of these "battles" should be merged into one like the battle of Tetovo, and the result absolutely should be:
Ohrid Framework Agreement Militarily inconclusive Macedonian offensives stopped because of civilian presence
GoofyGoofyson ( talk) 15:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Lipkovo/Kumanovo front. One journalistic article is not enough for a whole front article and it would be largely original research. Your only options are to try to improve the existing articles or to formally propose that they be merged into this article. For the latter option, you'll need to make a good case though. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 18:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Please note that Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters states against "result" that "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." The infobox has been amended to reflect this. Please read the template "result" guidance in full before amending or reverting. It would probably be best to discuss any proposed change here first to seek consensus. Thanks! Annwfwn ( talk) 00:41, 27 January 2024 (UTC)