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Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
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I check pages listed in
Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
1974–75 Shatt al-Arab clashes's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
AnomieBOT⚡ 13:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Incomplete article
There is no mention of the disputed territories along the central section of the common border (four or five areas), which Iran had not given back as they should have per the Algiers agreement. For reference see, at 4:20 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE8b_3yvoKc
@
damian lewThe two sources you've used talk about conflict between the Iraqi and Kurdish conflicts instead of the one between
Iran and
Iraq. The first source is : Chemical Weapons Use in Kurdistan: Iraq's Final Offensive : a Staff Report to the Committee on Foreign Relations, United States Senate. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1988 p9., which is a report that focuses on the usage of chemical weapons by the
Iraqi Government rather than the conflict between Iran and Iraq (which is only briefly mentioned), the 2nd source is Gibson, Bryan (2016). Sold Out? US Foreign Policy, Iraq, the Kurds, and the Cold War. Springer. p. 177.
ISBN9781137517159., which again is focused more on
Kurdish and
Iraqi clashes and mentions Iranian support for the
Kurds, the source that mentions the conflict to be an
Iranian victory looks at the conflict in more detail and provides far more analysis rather than the two aforementioned sources that briefy glance over it.Overall the 2 sources talk about the conflict in
Kurdistan, however this article is about the conflict in
Shatt al Arab. For now I'm reverting the article back to the old version, if you have any objections feel free to reply on this topic over here. Kindly do not revert the edit now and discuss it here. Before changing or reverting the edit please see the consequences of repeatedly doing so:
WP:Editwarring. Thanks!
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 22:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The issues you've raised as it pertains to the sources in question are irrelevant, since the dispute that this article is about was part of a larger conflict and should appropriately be discussed as such. Moreover the source that you're citing for the result (Which I myself have cited and didn't remove) is from a section that is covering the Second Iraqi–Kurdish War and goes to little details about this specific conflict further than that. The source itself considers the dispute to have been politically settled in favor of Iran, as opposed to militarily settled which the other sources dispute accordingly. Please refrain from arbitrarily removing sources from the article without any adequate reason
WP:TASTEDamian Lew (
talk) 23:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources you've given talk about the conflict in Kurdistan, this article is about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab, therefore the sources need to talk about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab rather than Kurdistan
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 23:25, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The conflicts are interlinked and the sources are evidently talking this same conflict, the result of which and the Algiers agreement. With explicit mentions of Iran and its head of state, the Shah.
Damian Lew (
talk) 23:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Even though the conflicts are interlinked they're not part of a single article, this article is about the conflict that took place in Shatt Al Arab, not Kurdistan, furthermore the source talks about how it was the Peshmerga,supported by Iran that lost , the source is explicitly talking about the Kurdish front (not the front on Shatt Al Arab)
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 23:36, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources are evidently referring to the overall conflict and Iran as an active belligerent in it.
Damian Lew (
talk) 23:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources are referring to Iranian support for Peshmerga and Kurdish rebels, that is clearly not the front on Shatt Al Arab
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 23:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Please refrain from misrepresenting the sources when they're explicitly referring to the border dispute between the two countries: "The Shah of Iran realized that the war appeared stalemated and there were limited prospects for a change of regime in Baghdad. With Algerian mediation, Iraq and Iran signed an agreement in March 1975 settling a series of disputes between the neighbors"(1) "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred].” Over the next week, tensions escalated further, with Iraq killing two Iranian children during a bombing raid, artillery exchanges, and finally a five-hour pitched battle on August 23"(2)
Damian Lew (
talk) 23:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Key words from what you've just quoted from the source: "Fearing a Kurdish defeat" the source is literally talking about how the Shah feared the Kurds being defeated and signed a treaty, this has nothing to do with the front on Shatt Al Arab
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 00:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Please keep the replies relevant and within reason.
Damian Lew (
talk) 01:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The replies are definitely within reason, the sources you've provided give a completely different front of the conflict (Kurdistan), even though this article's about the front in Shatt Al Arab
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 07:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
They do not as I've already demonstrated. Please refrain from arbitrarily removing sources from the article without any adequate reasons
WP:TASTEDamian Lew (
talk) 18:18, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
As already stated multiple times, the sources talk about a completely different front of the conflict between
Iran and
Iraq, please thoroughly read and understand them. The sources talk about how the
Shah withdrew his support after realising
Kurdish resistance was futile, this has nothing to do with the front in Shatt Al Arab, please use sources that talk about this conflict rather than another fromt
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 18:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources explicitly mention the border dispute between the two countries, Iran as an active belligerent and the broader conflict which the dispute is part of, according to the result of which the settlement took place. As do the majority of the other sources cited in the article, including the one you're citing (which I haven't removed). I suggest you get another moderator to look into this as this is clearly going nowhere.
Damian Lew (
talk) 18:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources only briefly glance over the Shatt Al Arab front, they mainly focus on Iranian SUPPORT for Kurdish groups, not direct military involvement in Kurdistan, please read the source clearly (rather than reading a single sentence or highlight).
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 18:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Please refrain from misrepresenting the sources when they're explicitly referring to the border dispute between the two countries: "The Shah of Iran realized that the war appeared stalemated and there were limited prospects for a change of regime in Baghdad. With Algerian mediation, Iraq and Iran signed an agreement in March 1975 settling a series of disputes between the neighbors"(1) "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred].” Over the next week, tensions escalated further, with Iraq killing two Iranian children during a bombing raid, artillery exchanges, and finally a five-hour pitched battle on August 23"(2)
Damian Lew (
talk) 18:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Again, I suggest you get impartial moderation. Otherwise I'm not obligated to respond to you after I made my position evidently clear. Additionally I hope you stop arbitrarily removing sources from the article.
Damian Lew (
talk) 18:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
HistoryofIran I've read your message and am really sorry to disturb, however we really need some sort of moderation or third party to step in to form a consensus
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 19:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Salman Cooper Mapping and
Damian Lew: I'm thinking about providing a third opinion per
WP:3O. Are you able to provide chapters and quotes from the sources? If we have direct quotes, it would be much easier to provide an opinion.--
WMrapids (
talk) 14:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Hello, thanks for your willingness to provide a third opinion. The main argument here is that the sources provided by
Damian Lew talk about the
Second Iraqi-Kurdish War rather than the front in
Shatt Al Arab, this is supported by the fact that the source (when talking about the conflict) starts with the sentence "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred], this is clearly referring to how the
Iranian government initiated clashes in the south after fearing a KURDISH defeat, which was clearly nowhere near Shatt Al Arab. Furthermore, after this the source goes on to talk about how the war was a stalemate after the withdrawal of Iranian support for Kurdish resistance groups such as the
Peshmerga, again this is clearly alluding to the conflict in
Kurdistan rather than the one in Shatt Al Arab. It then goes on to talk about how the war was a political victory for
Iran. My point is that after reading all of this one can clearly point out that the sources are referring to an overall conflict between Iran and Iraq in both Kurdistan and Shatt Al Arab, and then goes on to talk about how the Iranians won in Shatt Al Arab but it was Iraq that won in Kurdistan, this would obviously be considered a stalemate, however the problem arises due to the fact that this article is only about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab (not Kurdistan) which is why it must be considered an
Iranian victory. Moreover if one reads the entire article, which only talks about Iranian successes, they could easily question how this could have resulted in a so called "stalemate". Overall what I'm trying to say is the fact that the sources provided by the opposing party are talking about an overall conflict on a larger scale, rather than one that specifically occured in the front that the article is talking about (similar to how one wouldn't use sources about the
Eastern front in
World War II to talk about the
Western front).
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 15:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Greetings, I strongly recommend reading the back and fourth we had earlier in this discussion, I already quoted the sources and made my position evidently clear. I'd be repeating myself for for the third or fourth time at this point in response to blatantly false claims, misrepresentation, false equivalency and arbitrary selection of sources.
Damian Lew (
talk) 16:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to
Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
join the project where you can contribute to the
discussions and help with our
open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iraq, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Iraq on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IraqWikipedia:WikiProject IraqTemplate:WikiProject IraqIraq articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
I check pages listed in
Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
1974–75 Shatt al-Arab clashes's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
AnomieBOT⚡ 13:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Incomplete article
There is no mention of the disputed territories along the central section of the common border (four or five areas), which Iran had not given back as they should have per the Algiers agreement. For reference see, at 4:20 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE8b_3yvoKc
@
damian lewThe two sources you've used talk about conflict between the Iraqi and Kurdish conflicts instead of the one between
Iran and
Iraq. The first source is : Chemical Weapons Use in Kurdistan: Iraq's Final Offensive : a Staff Report to the Committee on Foreign Relations, United States Senate. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1988 p9., which is a report that focuses on the usage of chemical weapons by the
Iraqi Government rather than the conflict between Iran and Iraq (which is only briefly mentioned), the 2nd source is Gibson, Bryan (2016). Sold Out? US Foreign Policy, Iraq, the Kurds, and the Cold War. Springer. p. 177.
ISBN9781137517159., which again is focused more on
Kurdish and
Iraqi clashes and mentions Iranian support for the
Kurds, the source that mentions the conflict to be an
Iranian victory looks at the conflict in more detail and provides far more analysis rather than the two aforementioned sources that briefy glance over it.Overall the 2 sources talk about the conflict in
Kurdistan, however this article is about the conflict in
Shatt al Arab. For now I'm reverting the article back to the old version, if you have any objections feel free to reply on this topic over here. Kindly do not revert the edit now and discuss it here. Before changing or reverting the edit please see the consequences of repeatedly doing so:
WP:Editwarring. Thanks!
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 22:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The issues you've raised as it pertains to the sources in question are irrelevant, since the dispute that this article is about was part of a larger conflict and should appropriately be discussed as such. Moreover the source that you're citing for the result (Which I myself have cited and didn't remove) is from a section that is covering the Second Iraqi–Kurdish War and goes to little details about this specific conflict further than that. The source itself considers the dispute to have been politically settled in favor of Iran, as opposed to militarily settled which the other sources dispute accordingly. Please refrain from arbitrarily removing sources from the article without any adequate reason
WP:TASTEDamian Lew (
talk) 23:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources you've given talk about the conflict in Kurdistan, this article is about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab, therefore the sources need to talk about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab rather than Kurdistan
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 23:25, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The conflicts are interlinked and the sources are evidently talking this same conflict, the result of which and the Algiers agreement. With explicit mentions of Iran and its head of state, the Shah.
Damian Lew (
talk) 23:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Even though the conflicts are interlinked they're not part of a single article, this article is about the conflict that took place in Shatt Al Arab, not Kurdistan, furthermore the source talks about how it was the Peshmerga,supported by Iran that lost , the source is explicitly talking about the Kurdish front (not the front on Shatt Al Arab)
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 23:36, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources are evidently referring to the overall conflict and Iran as an active belligerent in it.
Damian Lew (
talk) 23:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources are referring to Iranian support for Peshmerga and Kurdish rebels, that is clearly not the front on Shatt Al Arab
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 23:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Please refrain from misrepresenting the sources when they're explicitly referring to the border dispute between the two countries: "The Shah of Iran realized that the war appeared stalemated and there were limited prospects for a change of regime in Baghdad. With Algerian mediation, Iraq and Iran signed an agreement in March 1975 settling a series of disputes between the neighbors"(1) "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred].” Over the next week, tensions escalated further, with Iraq killing two Iranian children during a bombing raid, artillery exchanges, and finally a five-hour pitched battle on August 23"(2)
Damian Lew (
talk) 23:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Key words from what you've just quoted from the source: "Fearing a Kurdish defeat" the source is literally talking about how the Shah feared the Kurds being defeated and signed a treaty, this has nothing to do with the front on Shatt Al Arab
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 00:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Please keep the replies relevant and within reason.
Damian Lew (
talk) 01:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The replies are definitely within reason, the sources you've provided give a completely different front of the conflict (Kurdistan), even though this article's about the front in Shatt Al Arab
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 07:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
They do not as I've already demonstrated. Please refrain from arbitrarily removing sources from the article without any adequate reasons
WP:TASTEDamian Lew (
talk) 18:18, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
As already stated multiple times, the sources talk about a completely different front of the conflict between
Iran and
Iraq, please thoroughly read and understand them. The sources talk about how the
Shah withdrew his support after realising
Kurdish resistance was futile, this has nothing to do with the front in Shatt Al Arab, please use sources that talk about this conflict rather than another fromt
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 18:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources explicitly mention the border dispute between the two countries, Iran as an active belligerent and the broader conflict which the dispute is part of, according to the result of which the settlement took place. As do the majority of the other sources cited in the article, including the one you're citing (which I haven't removed). I suggest you get another moderator to look into this as this is clearly going nowhere.
Damian Lew (
talk) 18:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The sources only briefly glance over the Shatt Al Arab front, they mainly focus on Iranian SUPPORT for Kurdish groups, not direct military involvement in Kurdistan, please read the source clearly (rather than reading a single sentence or highlight).
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 18:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Please refrain from misrepresenting the sources when they're explicitly referring to the border dispute between the two countries: "The Shah of Iran realized that the war appeared stalemated and there were limited prospects for a change of regime in Baghdad. With Algerian mediation, Iraq and Iran signed an agreement in March 1975 settling a series of disputes between the neighbors"(1) "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred].” Over the next week, tensions escalated further, with Iraq killing two Iranian children during a bombing raid, artillery exchanges, and finally a five-hour pitched battle on August 23"(2)
Damian Lew (
talk) 18:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Again, I suggest you get impartial moderation. Otherwise I'm not obligated to respond to you after I made my position evidently clear. Additionally I hope you stop arbitrarily removing sources from the article.
Damian Lew (
talk) 18:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
HistoryofIran I've read your message and am really sorry to disturb, however we really need some sort of moderation or third party to step in to form a consensus
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 19:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Salman Cooper Mapping and
Damian Lew: I'm thinking about providing a third opinion per
WP:3O. Are you able to provide chapters and quotes from the sources? If we have direct quotes, it would be much easier to provide an opinion.--
WMrapids (
talk) 14:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Hello, thanks for your willingness to provide a third opinion. The main argument here is that the sources provided by
Damian Lew talk about the
Second Iraqi-Kurdish War rather than the front in
Shatt Al Arab, this is supported by the fact that the source (when talking about the conflict) starts with the sentence "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred], this is clearly referring to how the
Iranian government initiated clashes in the south after fearing a KURDISH defeat, which was clearly nowhere near Shatt Al Arab. Furthermore, after this the source goes on to talk about how the war was a stalemate after the withdrawal of Iranian support for Kurdish resistance groups such as the
Peshmerga, again this is clearly alluding to the conflict in
Kurdistan rather than the one in Shatt Al Arab. It then goes on to talk about how the war was a political victory for
Iran. My point is that after reading all of this one can clearly point out that the sources are referring to an overall conflict between Iran and Iraq in both Kurdistan and Shatt Al Arab, and then goes on to talk about how the Iranians won in Shatt Al Arab but it was Iraq that won in Kurdistan, this would obviously be considered a stalemate, however the problem arises due to the fact that this article is only about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab (not Kurdistan) which is why it must be considered an
Iranian victory. Moreover if one reads the entire article, which only talks about Iranian successes, they could easily question how this could have resulted in a so called "stalemate". Overall what I'm trying to say is the fact that the sources provided by the opposing party are talking about an overall conflict on a larger scale, rather than one that specifically occured in the front that the article is talking about (similar to how one wouldn't use sources about the
Eastern front in
World War II to talk about the
Western front).
Salman Cooper Mapping (
talk) 15:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Greetings, I strongly recommend reading the back and fourth we had earlier in this discussion, I already quoted the sources and made my position evidently clear. I'd be repeating myself for for the third or fourth time at this point in response to blatantly false claims, misrepresentation, false equivalency and arbitrary selection of sources.
Damian Lew (
talk) 16:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply