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She needs her own page. To redirect to brooklyn College? that makes less sense, then just to have nothing.
As might be seen in the multiple obits on this esteemed individual - e.g.
wapo,
NYT, or
Forward - coverage of Polish and Polish-Americans contesting her accounts are limited to: After the liberation of Eishyshok, according to Dr. Eliach, Polish partisans shot her mother and baby brother, an account that was challenged by some Polish American groups.
(WaPo) or The family managed to survive until the area’s liberation in July 1944, but when they returned to Eishyshok, fighting broke out between Polish partisans and Soviet soldiers. Professor Eliach’s mother and Hayyim were shot to death by the partisans. Professor Eliach contended that anti-Semitic Poles had done so deliberately, though the charge was disputed
(NYT). This "dispute" by Polish Americans (and in Poland - which WaPo fails to mention) with various investigations of fairly low quality (relying on statements and documents of the killers) that were done by fairly
WP:FRINGE elements are currently taking up approx. half the article - including the lede, and including in her own account (which was widely covered, unlike these various FRINGEy reports) on how her mother and brother died. This is grossly UNDUE and POVish. NYT and WaPo - are giving this 5 and 10 words respectively - in fairly long articles. The same proportion of coverage is shown in coverage from the 90s and 00s - with Eliach's accounts being widely covered.
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:14, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
challenged by some Polish American groups- and in a long article on Eliach, gave this exactly 10 words. At present, the amount of coverage we are giving to this viewpoint (challenging Eliach's eyewitness testimony) is grossly UNDUE. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:27, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Is grossly DUE. This is what she was famous for. Zezen ( talk) 04:28, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Let's review the sources used in the article
[1] Ph.D.Associate Professor of History at University of Alaska Southeast, co-author of 13 books,numerous reports, articles, and reviews in publications such as Journal of American Ethnic History, Polin: Studies in Polish Jewry, Polish American Studies,American Heritage of Invention and Technology, and Minnesota History.Received the Oskar Halecki Prize
Sarūnas Liekis is a Lithuanian historian and political scientist. He is Professor of Politics and dean of the faculty of politics and diplomacy at the Vytautas Magnus University (since 2010). He is an expert on inter-ethnic relations and conflicts.
Liekis studied at Vilnius University 1987–1993 (earning an MA), at the University of Oxford 1991–1992 (earning a Diploma), at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem 1995–1996, at Brandeis University 1993–1998 (earning a PhD), and earned the Habilitation at Vilnius University in 2005. /info/en/?search=%C5%A0ar%C5%ABnas_Liekis
/info/en/?search=Journal_of_Genocide_Research The Journal of Genocide Research is a quarterly peer-reviewed academic journal covering studies of genocide. It was established in 1999 and is published by Routledge. The editor-in-chief is A. Dirk Moses (University of Sydney). It is the official journal of the International Network of Genocide Scholars. Previous editors have been Henry R. Huttenbach, Dominik J. Schaller, and Jürgen Zimmerer. The journal is abstracted and indexed in Political Science Abstracts, Historical Abstracts, and America: History and Life.
/info/en/?search=Gazeta_Wyborcza Left wing liberal newspaper
Adam Michnik is a Polish historian, essayist, former dissident, public intellectual, and editor-in-chief of the Polish newspaper, Gazeta Wyborcz.Adam Michnik was born in Warsaw, Poland, to a family of Jewish communists.[2] His father Ozjasz Szechter was First Secretary of the Communist Party of Western Ukraine, and his mother Helena Michnik was a historian, communist activist, and children's-book author.He has taken various positions of support for the former Communist secret police officers, against the Catholic Church and against various post-Communist opposition parties.
https://liverpooluniversitypress.co.uk/collections/series-polin-studies-in-polish-jewry Polin, established in 1986 by the Institute for Polish-Jewish Studies, has acquired a well-deserved reputation for publishing authoritative material on all aspects of Polish Jewry. Contributions are drawn from many disciplines- history, politics, religious studies, literature, linguistics, sociology, art, and architecture-and from a wide variety of viewpoints.
None of the sources are fringe or nationalistic. Seems that the mainstream research on the subject of Eliach's claims has largely rejected her description of the events and that the criticism has been also issued by left-wing liberal historians and publicists.Reading through the publications it is clear that evidence against Eliach's version of events is overwhelming.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk) 10:36, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Hmmm. " the baby was shot with 9 bullets and her mother with 15". So she counted the bullets and remembered that - as a 9-year old child? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:40, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The biography is dominated by a child's tale. Einstein was a scientist, his socks weren't important. If Yaffa Eliach was important, please write about her successes, not about crazy opinions. Xx236 ( talk) 08:53, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
She was born in a Polish town of Ejszyszki. Xx236 ( talk) 13:01, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Besides being , SYNTH, WP:UNDUE, imprecise in its citations, and using language not used elsewhere (e.g. a Polish-American activist [4] is presented as from the United States - factually correct - but the language used by the Washington Post differs) - this diff also contains a serious misrepresentation in stating Eliach's account was challenged by an Israeli historian (citing Israel Gutman). The cited source, on page 66, contains a rather scathing critique on the writings of one Zdzislaw Krasnodębski - who has written also on Eliach. @ MyMoloboaccount: - please provide a direct quote that Gutman is challenging Eliach here (beyond saying her expertise was not Holocaust studies). Icewhiz ( talk) 06:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
American historian is John Radzilowski:[ [5] Ph.D.Associate Professor of History at University of Alaska Southeast, co-author of 13 books,numerous reports, articles, and reviews in publications such as Journal of American Ethnic History, Polin: Studies in Polish Jewry, Polish American Studies,American Heritage of Invention and Technology, and Minnesota History.Received the Oskar Halecki Prize
Lithuanian historian is Šarūnas Liekis.Sarūnas Liekis is a Lithuanian historian and political scientist. He is Professor of Politics and dean of the faculty of politics and diplomacy at the Vytautas Magnus University (since 2010). He is an expert on inter-ethnic relations and conflicts.Liekis studied at Vilnius University 1987–1993 (earning an MA), at the University of Oxford 1991–1992 (earning a Diploma), at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem 1995–1996, at Brandeis University 1993–1998 (earning a PhD), and earned the Habilitation at Vilnius University in 2005. [6]
Israeli historian is is Israel Gutman.Gutman was a professor of history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and deputy chairman of the International Auschwitz Council at Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation.He was the editor-in-chief of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust and won the Yitzhak Sadeh Prize for Military Studies.At Yad Vashem, he headed the International Institute for Holocaust Research (1993–1996), served as Chief Historian (1996–2000) and was the Academic Advisor (from 2000).
In regards to Gutman he writes a praise of Krasnodebski's article which addresses Eliach but debates some points raised by Krasnodebski unrelated to Eliach.In regards to Eliach he is highly critical of her claims and states that it is good that Krasnodebski devoted space to address this person "Dobrze sie stalo,ze Zdzislaw Krasnodebski poswiecil sporo miejsca pracy Yaffy Eliach,ktora zajmowala sie sprawa Ejszyszek.Nie mam sympatii dla tej autorki nie jest autorytetem w sprawie Holokaustu i jej ksiazki nie przetlumaczono na hebrajski.Nie powinno sie zamykac oczu na to,ze oddzialy AK na Wilenszczyznie walczyly z partyzantka sowieckq o wyzwolenie Polski. Dlatego wlasnie Zydzi,ktorzy znalezli sie po przeciwnej stronie,gineli z rak zolnierzy AK jako wrogowie Polski a nie jako Zydzi." It's good that Zdzislaw Krasnodebski dedicated a lot of space in his work to Yaffa Eliach who dealt with the issue of Ejszyszki.I don't have symphathy for this author;she's not an authority on Holocaust, and her books haven't been translated to Hebrew.One shouldn't close eyes to the fact that Home Army in Vilnius region fought with Soviet partisants for liberation of Poland.That's why Jews that belonged to the other side were killed by Home Army as enemies of Poland, and not as Jews." -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 07:32, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
"Eliach stated she and her family were victims of a pogrom by Poles and the Polish Home Army, an account challenged by ... [Gutman]"- Gutman doesn't relate at all to Eliach's testimony. He just makes a general comment that he is unsympathetic towards Eliach's work in general. This is a gross misrepresentation of Gutman. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
" Radzilowski accuses such historians as John Connelly, Piotr Wrobel, Joanna Michlic, and Padraic Kenney of using neo-Stalinist methods in their articles and reviews concerning Poland. By “neo-Stalinist method” Radzilowski seems to have in mind the kind of writing that does not answer the adversary’s objections or arguments and instead uses the anti-Semitic label. Notably, John Radzilowski teaches at the Ketchikian branch of the University of Alaska, while the historians whom he accuses of antiCatholic and anti-Polish bias occupy positions at such prominent institutions of higher learning as the University of Michigan or the University of Toronto."- so Eliach is in good company it would seem, and the Ketchikian branch of the University of Alaska is, well.... what it is. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:15, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Those were bad, old Icewhiz ( talk)'s days. So nice to be able to edit now without his ASPERSIONS and worse, for 5P sake. Zezen ( talk) 04:35, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
It wasn't Lithuania in 1935. We don't write born in 1935 in Gdańsk, Poland. Xx236 ( talk) 07:38, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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She needs her own page. To redirect to brooklyn College? that makes less sense, then just to have nothing.
As might be seen in the multiple obits on this esteemed individual - e.g.
wapo,
NYT, or
Forward - coverage of Polish and Polish-Americans contesting her accounts are limited to: After the liberation of Eishyshok, according to Dr. Eliach, Polish partisans shot her mother and baby brother, an account that was challenged by some Polish American groups.
(WaPo) or The family managed to survive until the area’s liberation in July 1944, but when they returned to Eishyshok, fighting broke out between Polish partisans and Soviet soldiers. Professor Eliach’s mother and Hayyim were shot to death by the partisans. Professor Eliach contended that anti-Semitic Poles had done so deliberately, though the charge was disputed
(NYT). This "dispute" by Polish Americans (and in Poland - which WaPo fails to mention) with various investigations of fairly low quality (relying on statements and documents of the killers) that were done by fairly
WP:FRINGE elements are currently taking up approx. half the article - including the lede, and including in her own account (which was widely covered, unlike these various FRINGEy reports) on how her mother and brother died. This is grossly UNDUE and POVish. NYT and WaPo - are giving this 5 and 10 words respectively - in fairly long articles. The same proportion of coverage is shown in coverage from the 90s and 00s - with Eliach's accounts being widely covered.
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:14, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
challenged by some Polish American groups- and in a long article on Eliach, gave this exactly 10 words. At present, the amount of coverage we are giving to this viewpoint (challenging Eliach's eyewitness testimony) is grossly UNDUE. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:27, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Is grossly DUE. This is what she was famous for. Zezen ( talk) 04:28, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Let's review the sources used in the article
[1] Ph.D.Associate Professor of History at University of Alaska Southeast, co-author of 13 books,numerous reports, articles, and reviews in publications such as Journal of American Ethnic History, Polin: Studies in Polish Jewry, Polish American Studies,American Heritage of Invention and Technology, and Minnesota History.Received the Oskar Halecki Prize
Sarūnas Liekis is a Lithuanian historian and political scientist. He is Professor of Politics and dean of the faculty of politics and diplomacy at the Vytautas Magnus University (since 2010). He is an expert on inter-ethnic relations and conflicts.
Liekis studied at Vilnius University 1987–1993 (earning an MA), at the University of Oxford 1991–1992 (earning a Diploma), at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem 1995–1996, at Brandeis University 1993–1998 (earning a PhD), and earned the Habilitation at Vilnius University in 2005. /info/en/?search=%C5%A0ar%C5%ABnas_Liekis
/info/en/?search=Journal_of_Genocide_Research The Journal of Genocide Research is a quarterly peer-reviewed academic journal covering studies of genocide. It was established in 1999 and is published by Routledge. The editor-in-chief is A. Dirk Moses (University of Sydney). It is the official journal of the International Network of Genocide Scholars. Previous editors have been Henry R. Huttenbach, Dominik J. Schaller, and Jürgen Zimmerer. The journal is abstracted and indexed in Political Science Abstracts, Historical Abstracts, and America: History and Life.
/info/en/?search=Gazeta_Wyborcza Left wing liberal newspaper
Adam Michnik is a Polish historian, essayist, former dissident, public intellectual, and editor-in-chief of the Polish newspaper, Gazeta Wyborcz.Adam Michnik was born in Warsaw, Poland, to a family of Jewish communists.[2] His father Ozjasz Szechter was First Secretary of the Communist Party of Western Ukraine, and his mother Helena Michnik was a historian, communist activist, and children's-book author.He has taken various positions of support for the former Communist secret police officers, against the Catholic Church and against various post-Communist opposition parties.
https://liverpooluniversitypress.co.uk/collections/series-polin-studies-in-polish-jewry Polin, established in 1986 by the Institute for Polish-Jewish Studies, has acquired a well-deserved reputation for publishing authoritative material on all aspects of Polish Jewry. Contributions are drawn from many disciplines- history, politics, religious studies, literature, linguistics, sociology, art, and architecture-and from a wide variety of viewpoints.
None of the sources are fringe or nationalistic. Seems that the mainstream research on the subject of Eliach's claims has largely rejected her description of the events and that the criticism has been also issued by left-wing liberal historians and publicists.Reading through the publications it is clear that evidence against Eliach's version of events is overwhelming.--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk) 10:36, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Hmmm. " the baby was shot with 9 bullets and her mother with 15". So she counted the bullets and remembered that - as a 9-year old child? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:40, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The biography is dominated by a child's tale. Einstein was a scientist, his socks weren't important. If Yaffa Eliach was important, please write about her successes, not about crazy opinions. Xx236 ( talk) 08:53, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
She was born in a Polish town of Ejszyszki. Xx236 ( talk) 13:01, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Besides being , SYNTH, WP:UNDUE, imprecise in its citations, and using language not used elsewhere (e.g. a Polish-American activist [4] is presented as from the United States - factually correct - but the language used by the Washington Post differs) - this diff also contains a serious misrepresentation in stating Eliach's account was challenged by an Israeli historian (citing Israel Gutman). The cited source, on page 66, contains a rather scathing critique on the writings of one Zdzislaw Krasnodębski - who has written also on Eliach. @ MyMoloboaccount: - please provide a direct quote that Gutman is challenging Eliach here (beyond saying her expertise was not Holocaust studies). Icewhiz ( talk) 06:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
American historian is John Radzilowski:[ [5] Ph.D.Associate Professor of History at University of Alaska Southeast, co-author of 13 books,numerous reports, articles, and reviews in publications such as Journal of American Ethnic History, Polin: Studies in Polish Jewry, Polish American Studies,American Heritage of Invention and Technology, and Minnesota History.Received the Oskar Halecki Prize
Lithuanian historian is Šarūnas Liekis.Sarūnas Liekis is a Lithuanian historian and political scientist. He is Professor of Politics and dean of the faculty of politics and diplomacy at the Vytautas Magnus University (since 2010). He is an expert on inter-ethnic relations and conflicts.Liekis studied at Vilnius University 1987–1993 (earning an MA), at the University of Oxford 1991–1992 (earning a Diploma), at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem 1995–1996, at Brandeis University 1993–1998 (earning a PhD), and earned the Habilitation at Vilnius University in 2005. [6]
Israeli historian is is Israel Gutman.Gutman was a professor of history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and deputy chairman of the International Auschwitz Council at Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation.He was the editor-in-chief of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust and won the Yitzhak Sadeh Prize for Military Studies.At Yad Vashem, he headed the International Institute for Holocaust Research (1993–1996), served as Chief Historian (1996–2000) and was the Academic Advisor (from 2000).
In regards to Gutman he writes a praise of Krasnodebski's article which addresses Eliach but debates some points raised by Krasnodebski unrelated to Eliach.In regards to Eliach he is highly critical of her claims and states that it is good that Krasnodebski devoted space to address this person "Dobrze sie stalo,ze Zdzislaw Krasnodebski poswiecil sporo miejsca pracy Yaffy Eliach,ktora zajmowala sie sprawa Ejszyszek.Nie mam sympatii dla tej autorki nie jest autorytetem w sprawie Holokaustu i jej ksiazki nie przetlumaczono na hebrajski.Nie powinno sie zamykac oczu na to,ze oddzialy AK na Wilenszczyznie walczyly z partyzantka sowieckq o wyzwolenie Polski. Dlatego wlasnie Zydzi,ktorzy znalezli sie po przeciwnej stronie,gineli z rak zolnierzy AK jako wrogowie Polski a nie jako Zydzi." It's good that Zdzislaw Krasnodebski dedicated a lot of space in his work to Yaffa Eliach who dealt with the issue of Ejszyszki.I don't have symphathy for this author;she's not an authority on Holocaust, and her books haven't been translated to Hebrew.One shouldn't close eyes to the fact that Home Army in Vilnius region fought with Soviet partisants for liberation of Poland.That's why Jews that belonged to the other side were killed by Home Army as enemies of Poland, and not as Jews." -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 07:32, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
"Eliach stated she and her family were victims of a pogrom by Poles and the Polish Home Army, an account challenged by ... [Gutman]"- Gutman doesn't relate at all to Eliach's testimony. He just makes a general comment that he is unsympathetic towards Eliach's work in general. This is a gross misrepresentation of Gutman. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
" Radzilowski accuses such historians as John Connelly, Piotr Wrobel, Joanna Michlic, and Padraic Kenney of using neo-Stalinist methods in their articles and reviews concerning Poland. By “neo-Stalinist method” Radzilowski seems to have in mind the kind of writing that does not answer the adversary’s objections or arguments and instead uses the anti-Semitic label. Notably, John Radzilowski teaches at the Ketchikian branch of the University of Alaska, while the historians whom he accuses of antiCatholic and anti-Polish bias occupy positions at such prominent institutions of higher learning as the University of Michigan or the University of Toronto."- so Eliach is in good company it would seem, and the Ketchikian branch of the University of Alaska is, well.... what it is. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:15, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Those were bad, old Icewhiz ( talk)'s days. So nice to be able to edit now without his ASPERSIONS and worse, for 5P sake. Zezen ( talk) 04:35, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
It wasn't Lithuania in 1935. We don't write born in 1935 in Gdańsk, Poland. Xx236 ( talk) 07:38, 16 November 2018 (UTC)