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This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Prussia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Western Pomerania → ? – This article is about only one, arguably not the most important, meaning of the term. It may be better to change the title and place the disambig here, as Western Pomerania is not faithful translation of German Vorpommern. The
WP:NC(GN) rules applies here, just as in
Pomerelia (formerly Eastern Pomerania). Relisted.
Jenks24 (
talk) 14:04, 25 August 2014 (UTC) --Relisted.ArmbrustTheHomunculus 08:43, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Propositum (
talk)
12:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC)reply
And one more note: the other part of (narrow) Pomerania has the article entitled Farther Pomerania. Thus, the name of this page should be Hither Pomerania.
Propositum (
talk)
12:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The difficulty is that it's not exactly clear what this article is supposed to be *about*, as compared to other articles on Pomerania (it's sort of a problem for the whole topic, given the preponderance of names and terms). It's hard to decide what the appropriate title of an article is if the scope is not clear.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
00:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Interesting case. The choice to me is between the
more common but
less precise "Western Pomerania" and the more precise but less common "Hither Pomerania" (Vorpommern is hardly used except for the the current Land of
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania). Sources I perused in Google Books favour "Western" but this usually refers to the current Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. Controlling for those and looking at the remaining sources, I get a lot of cases where "Western" refers to Pomorze Zachodnie or the whole of the former
Province and
Duchy of Pomerania, i.e. "narrow Pomerania" or Hither and Further together. After discounting those, there are still numerous sources using "Western" for only Hither or Swedish Pomerania. Sourcing using "Hither" seem fewer but it is a far more precise term. Based on the numerous meanings of "Western" vis-à-vis the clarity of "Hither" and that we have a corresponding article at
Farther Pomerania, I support a move. —
AjaxSmack21:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)reply
We should use common names here. "Hither Pomerania" is so darned uncommon, it would be hilarious to make this move. We made this decision before btw and I don't see a problem with the current solution. --
Horst-schlaemma (
talk)
13:22, 29 August 2014 (UTC)reply
I don't know what "so darned uncommon" means exactly but it shows up in thousands of Google Books results (see some
here). I'm not sure why a move would be "hilarious" either. I have already noted that the current title is more common in sources but that is because "Western Pomerania" is ambiguous and refers to three different places. "Hither Pomerania" does not suffer this problem and is used widely enough in sources. —
AjaxSmack06:16, 31 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Have you provided any evidence for this claim? "Hither Pomerania" is an old-fashioned expression that is barely used since 1990. It'd be wrong and OR to reinstate this on Wikipedia. Cheers,
Horst-schlaemma (
talk)
16:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)reply
I just did if you note the link in my comment immediately above. I took the Google Books results and limited them to post-1950 sources. Around half of the hits are sources from the 2000s. There aren't going to be that many references under any name because the region is just not that commonly written about but use of the term is definitely not OR.
On the other hand, as I noted above, most of the search results for "Western Pomerania" are not about this region. For example, I Google Book searched the term post-1950 here. On the first page of 50 results I get 28 results referring to the current
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern state or the Pomeranian areas within it. I get 12 results referring to the Polish notion of Western Pomerania (Pomorze Zachodnie) and only five results referring to the topic of this article. Five other results were questionable but some could have referred to this topic. With a ratio of 28:12:5 or as few as 10% of the hits referring to this topic, it is an understatement then to say that calling this article "Western Pomerania" is highly misleading. The dab page should be at that name and this page should be moved.
This, combined with the number of references that do use "Hither Pomerania" and that "Hither Pomerania" provides
precise English term for the region, make it is a reasonable choice here. Please click the links and peruse for yourself. —
AjaxSmack19:16, 31 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The thing is, the "Polish region" used to be German. We could just as well rename this article Pommern-Wolgast. It still doesn't make sense, since it's all there already. "Western Pomerania" is the established term, just as "West Pomerania" is used for the voivodeship, but usually in combination with the voivodeship denotion. There hasn't been a problem with this way to handle it and there isn't now. --
Horst-schlaemma (
talk)
13:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)reply
Btw, you should check the
terminology section in the Pomerania article. As you can see, "Hither Pomerania" isn't a tad more precise either, as it's also used for areas that are now Polish. So a move wouldn't decrease confusion or else. The only acceptable move imho would be moving this page to "Vorpommern", but I'm not too emotional about it. Cheers,
Horst-schlaemma (
talk)
13:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Poland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please
join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Prussia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Western Pomerania → ? – This article is about only one, arguably not the most important, meaning of the term. It may be better to change the title and place the disambig here, as Western Pomerania is not faithful translation of German Vorpommern. The
WP:NC(GN) rules applies here, just as in
Pomerelia (formerly Eastern Pomerania). Relisted.
Jenks24 (
talk) 14:04, 25 August 2014 (UTC) --Relisted.ArmbrustTheHomunculus 08:43, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Propositum (
talk)
12:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC)reply
And one more note: the other part of (narrow) Pomerania has the article entitled Farther Pomerania. Thus, the name of this page should be Hither Pomerania.
Propositum (
talk)
12:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The difficulty is that it's not exactly clear what this article is supposed to be *about*, as compared to other articles on Pomerania (it's sort of a problem for the whole topic, given the preponderance of names and terms). It's hard to decide what the appropriate title of an article is if the scope is not clear.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
00:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Interesting case. The choice to me is between the
more common but
less precise "Western Pomerania" and the more precise but less common "Hither Pomerania" (Vorpommern is hardly used except for the the current Land of
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania). Sources I perused in Google Books favour "Western" but this usually refers to the current Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. Controlling for those and looking at the remaining sources, I get a lot of cases where "Western" refers to Pomorze Zachodnie or the whole of the former
Province and
Duchy of Pomerania, i.e. "narrow Pomerania" or Hither and Further together. After discounting those, there are still numerous sources using "Western" for only Hither or Swedish Pomerania. Sourcing using "Hither" seem fewer but it is a far more precise term. Based on the numerous meanings of "Western" vis-à-vis the clarity of "Hither" and that we have a corresponding article at
Farther Pomerania, I support a move. —
AjaxSmack21:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)reply
We should use common names here. "Hither Pomerania" is so darned uncommon, it would be hilarious to make this move. We made this decision before btw and I don't see a problem with the current solution. --
Horst-schlaemma (
talk)
13:22, 29 August 2014 (UTC)reply
I don't know what "so darned uncommon" means exactly but it shows up in thousands of Google Books results (see some
here). I'm not sure why a move would be "hilarious" either. I have already noted that the current title is more common in sources but that is because "Western Pomerania" is ambiguous and refers to three different places. "Hither Pomerania" does not suffer this problem and is used widely enough in sources. —
AjaxSmack06:16, 31 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Have you provided any evidence for this claim? "Hither Pomerania" is an old-fashioned expression that is barely used since 1990. It'd be wrong and OR to reinstate this on Wikipedia. Cheers,
Horst-schlaemma (
talk)
16:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)reply
I just did if you note the link in my comment immediately above. I took the Google Books results and limited them to post-1950 sources. Around half of the hits are sources from the 2000s. There aren't going to be that many references under any name because the region is just not that commonly written about but use of the term is definitely not OR.
On the other hand, as I noted above, most of the search results for "Western Pomerania" are not about this region. For example, I Google Book searched the term post-1950 here. On the first page of 50 results I get 28 results referring to the current
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern state or the Pomeranian areas within it. I get 12 results referring to the Polish notion of Western Pomerania (Pomorze Zachodnie) and only five results referring to the topic of this article. Five other results were questionable but some could have referred to this topic. With a ratio of 28:12:5 or as few as 10% of the hits referring to this topic, it is an understatement then to say that calling this article "Western Pomerania" is highly misleading. The dab page should be at that name and this page should be moved.
This, combined with the number of references that do use "Hither Pomerania" and that "Hither Pomerania" provides
precise English term for the region, make it is a reasonable choice here. Please click the links and peruse for yourself. —
AjaxSmack19:16, 31 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The thing is, the "Polish region" used to be German. We could just as well rename this article Pommern-Wolgast. It still doesn't make sense, since it's all there already. "Western Pomerania" is the established term, just as "West Pomerania" is used for the voivodeship, but usually in combination with the voivodeship denotion. There hasn't been a problem with this way to handle it and there isn't now. --
Horst-schlaemma (
talk)
13:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)reply
Btw, you should check the
terminology section in the Pomerania article. As you can see, "Hither Pomerania" isn't a tad more precise either, as it's also used for areas that are now Polish. So a move wouldn't decrease confusion or else. The only acceptable move imho would be moving this page to "Vorpommern", but I'm not too emotional about it. Cheers,
Horst-schlaemma (
talk)
13:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.