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This figure of 5,000 native speakers is misleading. If not simply invented, it probably relates to the number of learners who have studied Welsh through the Welsh Language Project. There may be some young children who are close to fluency by attending the recently opened bilingual schools but that is a guess. The simple fact is that there are no reliable sources because a detailed study has not been carried out. From what I have seen the few remaining fluent Welsh speakers, mainly farmer, died out decades ago. There may be a few elderly people left with a knowledge of the language but that is all. Finally, I question the reliability of the Welsh.com site which is a marketing tool to promote all things Welsh, government sponsored or not. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 15:03, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Please read the citation again. Where does it claim 5,000 'native' speakers (meaning first language}, as opposed to just 'speakers'? The distinction is very important, presumably why the infobox refers to native speakers. Not to make the distinction would allow a totally distorted claim, as has happened here, because otherwiseanybody able to string a few words together in a given language could claim to be a speaker of that language. So, whether Wales.com is a relevant source or not is irrelevant because it does not claim what the infobox says it claims. A point of interest is to look earlier on this talk page about similar unfounded claims of Welsh speakers in England. Again, no reliable factual evidence given. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 17:00, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Another commonly used source for citations about numbers of speakers of various languages gives 25,000. [1] Should we use this figure instead? Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 21:04, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
References
I think we have to be a little careful about reporting the responses to the "main language" question from the 2011 census in England. Census questions are subtle things; "Can you speak Irish?" produces different responses to "Do you speak Irish?" for instance. In this case, there's the odd point that people were asked "What is your main language?" but the glossary of terms (a separate document released after the census had been conducted) defines "main language" as "first or preferred language". This is a problematic definition because "main language" and "first or preferred language" are different things, and it's the first that people were asked about. I'm a native Welsh speaker, and I might even say that Welsh is my preferred language, but I live and work in Philadelphia, and I can hardly say it's my "main language". I've edited the text to try to make this clear by simply stating the facts, with sources. If people feel it's too much information, I think we should leave out the bit about "first or preferred language", as that seems the part most likely to mislead. The key point to get across is not what ONS thinks "main language" means, but what question people were asked and how many said "Welsh". Garik ( talk) 03:00, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Equally, it was un-installed without consensus? Whatever, I can see that putting in an explanation about the later census definition does look a little strange. If it does come across as neutrally unbalanced, it reads to me as in favour of 'main', and against 'first or preferred', which is what I think we all want, seeing as 'main' was the question asked and answered. In that sense it is not a breach of WP:NPOV. I have wondered though, if this debate is missing the point. Censuses are inherently risky to use as definitive sources of fact, as Garik has pointed out. This debate just confirms that. Isn't the question we should ask, therefore, not whether to mention, or not to mention, 'first or preferred', but whether we should use the census result at all. This would be because the source is unreliable WP:RS and WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, despite where it comes from. It is unreliable because 1/ the question answered was not the question that was intended by ONS (proven by its later definition), and 2/ even the original question, ie 'main', is open to interpretation, as has been proven by this debate. All this means that should we omit the census data entirely? Failing that I still think that if it is included we do not really have an option other than to labour the point that the result might not be reliable: (effectively leaving the article as it currently is, with nothing more than some minor tweaks). Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:12, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
To edit this article, I would like to delve deeper into the origins of Welsh to try to clear up some of the speculative sections, particularly about the introduction of Welsh in the Bronze & Iron Ages.
Some sources:
Wales and the Britons 350-1064, Charles-Edwards, TM
The Welsh Language: A History, Janet Davies Rgima ( talk) 20:57, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
In this massive article there is not one word on the cost to British taxpayers for funding / promoting the Welsh language. There's also no comment on the educational impact of having to learn an additional language local language / not learn a foreign language. No mention of it's impact on attracting non-welsh business. There's also no mention of the number of monolingual welsh speakers. Billyoffland ( talk) 06:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
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I find it ironic that references from Welsh news articles are forbidden in the Welsh language section of Wiki.. "Tidied, c/e, re-entered references with better structure, reduced cites-5 is too many and they should be in English" what if there are no other references to a topic in the English language? does it make the article invalid? what about history pages that source latin, French, Spanish, German books? are they invalid? I can agree to have supplied too many references, but the argument over not using references from other languages seems silly to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hogyncymru ( talk • contribs) 14:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
So, you're saying Welsh articles are allowed? 'preferred' can be a flexible word, it is not a solid yes/no, I see no reason why articles in other languages shouldn't be included, one in English and another in Welsh.. what's the problem? you have one to check up on, the other can be ignored if you wish, as long as it's valid, but it's the same with the Welsh wiki, the Welsh wiki uses references from English articles.. so why is it more flexible there and less so here?
The infobox claims 1,500-5,000 native speakers in Argentina. The lead claims the same. These claims need to be removed. First, what is a native speaker? Although no clear definition exists, we can rely on the definition given by WP. [1] The template guidelines mean that a native language and an L1 language are the same, so we can assume that as a fact here. It is not directly stated but unambiguously intended - read the template guide and the L1 article to see the connection. Next, look at the sources given. None of them claim L1 (or L2) speakers, just 'speakers'. These is not good enough to use as RSs because they are open to interpretation, meaning the claim of native speakers is not supported. This is why I will delete the statements and the references given - because the claim cannot be amended to reflect the sources. It is disappointing that these misleading weasel claims about a large community of L1 speakers in Argentina still exists. More justice to the Welsh language would be given by detailed and accurate analysis of the revitalisation efforts currently going on in Argentina, and the dying out of true L1 speakers during the 20th century, rather than constantly hammering the L1 line. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 00:29, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Could you please read my post before giving a fixed POV reply. Where have I said there are no Welsh speakers, L1 or L2, in Argentina, England, or anywhere else? The citations did not back the statements so the statements were unsupported so I removed them. If you want them put back then the onus is on you to provide a reliable source that backs the claim, namely that there are L1 speakers in England and Argentina. So, prove it ! Failing that the claims remain OR. I expected some form of disagreement with what I have done, but I thought it would be about the interpretation of 'native' speaker or something else open to a modicum of interpretation. Please do not put back uncited claims. The talk page is here for a reason. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:18, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
The term 'native speaker' is defined here on wp, so whether or not it is not defined in wider usage isn't relevant. In that sense we are fortunate. The WP definition is native speaker = L1 speaker (not L2, or L1+L2). All the sources used refer to 'speakers', which could be L1 or L2, so they do not clearly back the claim made. Snowded thinks agrees with me but he thinks I am being pedantic. I prefer being accurate, pedantic or not. Census data is important but it needs to be handled carefully because it is often primary evidence. The authorities publish the opinions of the box ticking public by passing on the data. It data becomes a secondary source if it is endorsed by the writer/publisher of that data. I agree with Sionk that a form of footnote would be a good way of using census data that is not very clearly from a secondary source. Back to the citations currently in use: aside from the native speaker topic, one of the citations [2] says the number of Welsh speakers is believed to be between only 1,500 and 5,000, meaning it is making no such claim as to the number of current speakers. This is basic reference checking, see RS. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 22:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree Sionk, we use the best available source (unless it is clearly unreliable). It is your, and others, interpretation, and hence use, of the source that is disputed. Being 'believed to be' is not a claim by a source that the statement is correct. The source, here wales.com, is merely 'passing over' the opinion/s of other unnamed persons, making the statement by wales.com unreliable. Whether wales.com is a reliable source or not is irrelevant in this case. The source also says 'speakers', not 'native speakers' as the source states. This is a fundamentally important distinction and very far from being pedantic. So, I agree, the source does mean exactly what it says, but that is not the same as what you think it says. Yet again, please provide a reliable source for the statement that there are 1,500 'native speakers' of Welsh in Patagonia (I assume we agree to exclude native speakers from Wales who happen to be in Patagonia.) If you cannot do that then the statement in the lead should be removed or left as unknown, ie use a '?'. Further explanation can be made in the body of the article. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:55, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
Please stop vandalising the page by spamming "WELSH LANGUAGE IS DYING". You are in fact making the Welsh language die even faster by dis-encouraging potential learners of the language from accessing resources about the language. -- BlobcatsAreCool ( talk) 09:54, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Speak Welsh. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed, Rosguill talk 12:57, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Although it was great to see MPs singing Calon Lân in parliament, I think the fact is not notable for this article. It was not an official use of the Welsh Language in parliament. It is a current issue but creates no precedents for the language itself. It should not be in this article. Sorry. Sirfurboy ( talk) 16:18, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
As Sirfurboy already said, it's hard to see how this is WP:DUE. Furthermore, arguments consisting of nothing more than an aggressive "That's your opinion" and nothing else do not contribute to the discussion. If users want to include material that has been challenged, the onus is on them to provide an argument for it. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:53, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
To my mind, the long-standing text places Welsh as a Brittonic language in a family with Kernow and Bretton. Within that family, it can also be termed Western Brittonic but that is a less rich description and links to a very weak and uninformative article. Making the Western point later in the article is fine. ----- Snowded TALK 19:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Garik: found a very good source that discusses the etymology of Welsh and updated the history. However, I made some minor tweaks based on what the source actually says. Also the URL does not work for that ref although I have a copy of the paper. Not sure if the URL is just temporarily down - may need to fix it. I also cited the actual relevant pages. In the same section, Garik expanded other information and introduced four new sources, one after another. My reference that he removed actually refers to all this information in a single source, so I have put my source back under the WP:OVERCITE policy. I am not precious about my source, so if one of the four deleted sources will work on its own, feel free to put that back. However the information is parenthetical, so one source should do.
The new information about etymology of Cymraeg needs a source too. I expect I can find one shortly. Additionally, removal of the south Wales pronunciation here means we do not mention that pronunciation at all. Not sure if it is notable enough to go in the lead or not. I will leave that for others, but just flagging that Garik removed it from here. -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 12:54, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
All discussions from pre-2017 have been archived at Talk:Welsh language/Archive 6. The next archive should be Talk:Welsh language/Archive 7. This has been done due to nothing being added to discussions - in some cases since 2008! This will hopefully start new discussions on how to improve the article. – Dyolf87 ( talk) 17:14, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Welch language. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 10#Welch language until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. –
Deacon Vorbis (
carbon •
videos) 16:50, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi @
Gareth Griffith-Jones:. In your reverts you said "inclusion is doubtful"
[5]. What has led you to this perspective that made you revert the maps? What are your concerns? Maps are based on Pryce's research, and each map is heavily referenced on what scholarship they draw from at their pages on wiki commons. I have also included academic sources that explain his methodology. Pryce is a respected scholar who did much research on the Welsh language and his data has been continuously republished by scholarship of the years, including reproductions of his maps (which i have also included links too).
Resnjari (
talk) 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
I have just made the following revision: /* Middle Welsh */ Restored the gallery (of maps) to this section rather than back into the Modern Welsh section. Cheers to
Resnjari and those who have posted above.
Gareth Griffith-Jones (
contribs) (
talk) 11:28, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
I want to suggest that this part of the introduction:
According to the United Kingdom Census 2011, 19 percent of residents in Wales aged three and over were able to speak Welsh. According to the 2001 Census, 21 percent of the population aged 3+ were able to speak Welsh. This suggests that there was a decrease in the number of Welsh speakers in Wales from 2001 to 2011 – from about 582,000 to 562,000.
The Annual Population Survey conducted by the Office for National Statistics for the year ending in June 2020 concluded that 866,600 Welsh residents (28.6 percent) aged three or over were able to speak Welsh. The results for the most recent National Survey for Wales (2018-2019) suggest that 22 percent of the population aged three and over were able to speak Welsh, with an additional 16 percent noting that they had "some Welsh speaking ability"
be changed to just this:
Around 20–30% of Welsh residents are able to speak Welsh.
There is just too much detail about the various surveys of the number of speakers. An introduction should just give a summary of the topic, I can't think of any other language article that gives so much attention to speaker surveys. (Additionally "This suggests that there was a decrease" does not seem to fit, surely the number is within margin of error.)
– Thjarkur (talk) 23:47, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Does the diacritic ^ (as seen on ŵ and ŷ) have its own Welsh language name? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 12:04, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
They do indeed. A circumflex in Welsh is known as an 'acen grom' [curved accent(uation)] (or less formally, a 'to bach' [little/small roof]. A diaeresis is known as a 'didolnod' [separating mark]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:7C09:AA00:AD2C:55F3:F5B7:FF90 ( talk) 18:07, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The acen grom is also known as a hirnod ("long sign"). So that's three names.--- Ehrenkater ( talk) 18:10, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
For completeness (although these are rarer) the acute accent is an acen ddyrchafedig ("elevated/ascending mark") and a grave accent is an acen drom ("sad or heavy mark") or acen ddysgenedig ("descending mark"). See Welsh orthography.
Note that the word acen is feminine, so the accompanying adjectives take the feminine form.--- Ehrenkater ( talk) 18:16, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
You'll find most of them in "Gramadeg y Gymraeg", by Peter Wynn Thomas, University of Wales Press, 1996 edition, Appendix IV, sections 18 and 37-41.--- Ehrenkater ( talk) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Why is there no mention that the British government suppressed and prevented the use of Welsh in schools and thereby contributed to near extinction of the language? Here is an article that partially deals with the issue: Welsh Not. This should be addressed in the history section and also mentioned in the summary. MythicalAlien ( talk) 23:12, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Okay, this may be utter speculation, but was Welsh historically spoken in Ireland? I mean, after the conquest of Ireland in the 17th century, many British people settled there. This led to extensive colonies of Scots speakers in Ulster, and to a West Country English-based variety in Leinster (a dialect now known as Irish English). So it seems likely to me that Welsh speakers must have settled there, too. And if they did, their language may well have survived for some generations. Can anyone teel me whether this was the case? Steinbach ( talk) 11:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
There's all sorts of information about people who "can speak Welsh", and people who learn it in school, and use it in information technology, profesional engineering, and all kinds of stuff. What there isn't, or hardly, is information about how the situation actually is on the ground. Because a living language, if it's really a living language, is spoken at home, in the pub, at the butcher's, with the lady at the hospital information desk... As of now, one gets the feeling that Welsh has been largely reduced to folklore (as is certainly the case with Irish). 90.186.83.177 ( talk) 23:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
WP:FORUM |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Not only should there be a Welsh books section, but also a full article on Welsh books. Cambrian Bibliography is an old list of some of the first books. I've been asked to add other books from the new and rather exciting Commons:Category:Scans in Welsh from the Internet Archive (950 new pdfs!) over the next few months, and therefore can't afford the time. John Jones ( talk) 15:43, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
[8] - there is currently no mention within the article of non-White Welsh people and how they interact with and feel about the way the Welsh language is implemented in Wales. The irony is this is exactly the pattern of bias highlighted in the report! (Considering Plaid Cymru’s *dismal* record on dealing with ethnic minority issues within Wales, this is hardly a surprise). It may be uncomfortable for some White Welsh people to here, but it needs to be addressed! 2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:5948:DC5B:70B7:C3A4 ( talk) 23:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
The article went from 4 to 7 footer templates in the last couple of days. I have pulled out a couple. As per the guidelines, there should be an editor discussion about which templates are best for the article.
The article is about the Welsh languages which is one of the languages of the UK. Yes, it is also clearly about Welsh linguistics andWelsh language and languages of Wales, but there is a lot of overlap in these. Also is Wales topics then deemed too broad? Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 14:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
AuH2ORepublican, to underscore the point Roger 8 Roger made in their edit summary, note that the Patagonian Welsh article itself has been tagged for ten years for a lack of citations. I might run through it myself this week and source what I can and remove the rest. In any event, it isn't clear that there's an active dialect. If all the speakers are learning it in school, absent evidence to the contrary, I expect that it's from standard Welsh materials. Largoplazo ( talk) 19:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
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This figure of 5,000 native speakers is misleading. If not simply invented, it probably relates to the number of learners who have studied Welsh through the Welsh Language Project. There may be some young children who are close to fluency by attending the recently opened bilingual schools but that is a guess. The simple fact is that there are no reliable sources because a detailed study has not been carried out. From what I have seen the few remaining fluent Welsh speakers, mainly farmer, died out decades ago. There may be a few elderly people left with a knowledge of the language but that is all. Finally, I question the reliability of the Welsh.com site which is a marketing tool to promote all things Welsh, government sponsored or not. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 15:03, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Please read the citation again. Where does it claim 5,000 'native' speakers (meaning first language}, as opposed to just 'speakers'? The distinction is very important, presumably why the infobox refers to native speakers. Not to make the distinction would allow a totally distorted claim, as has happened here, because otherwiseanybody able to string a few words together in a given language could claim to be a speaker of that language. So, whether Wales.com is a relevant source or not is irrelevant because it does not claim what the infobox says it claims. A point of interest is to look earlier on this talk page about similar unfounded claims of Welsh speakers in England. Again, no reliable factual evidence given. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 17:00, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Another commonly used source for citations about numbers of speakers of various languages gives 25,000. [1] Should we use this figure instead? Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 21:04, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
References
I think we have to be a little careful about reporting the responses to the "main language" question from the 2011 census in England. Census questions are subtle things; "Can you speak Irish?" produces different responses to "Do you speak Irish?" for instance. In this case, there's the odd point that people were asked "What is your main language?" but the glossary of terms (a separate document released after the census had been conducted) defines "main language" as "first or preferred language". This is a problematic definition because "main language" and "first or preferred language" are different things, and it's the first that people were asked about. I'm a native Welsh speaker, and I might even say that Welsh is my preferred language, but I live and work in Philadelphia, and I can hardly say it's my "main language". I've edited the text to try to make this clear by simply stating the facts, with sources. If people feel it's too much information, I think we should leave out the bit about "first or preferred language", as that seems the part most likely to mislead. The key point to get across is not what ONS thinks "main language" means, but what question people were asked and how many said "Welsh". Garik ( talk) 03:00, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Equally, it was un-installed without consensus? Whatever, I can see that putting in an explanation about the later census definition does look a little strange. If it does come across as neutrally unbalanced, it reads to me as in favour of 'main', and against 'first or preferred', which is what I think we all want, seeing as 'main' was the question asked and answered. In that sense it is not a breach of WP:NPOV. I have wondered though, if this debate is missing the point. Censuses are inherently risky to use as definitive sources of fact, as Garik has pointed out. This debate just confirms that. Isn't the question we should ask, therefore, not whether to mention, or not to mention, 'first or preferred', but whether we should use the census result at all. This would be because the source is unreliable WP:RS and WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, despite where it comes from. It is unreliable because 1/ the question answered was not the question that was intended by ONS (proven by its later definition), and 2/ even the original question, ie 'main', is open to interpretation, as has been proven by this debate. All this means that should we omit the census data entirely? Failing that I still think that if it is included we do not really have an option other than to labour the point that the result might not be reliable: (effectively leaving the article as it currently is, with nothing more than some minor tweaks). Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:12, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
To edit this article, I would like to delve deeper into the origins of Welsh to try to clear up some of the speculative sections, particularly about the introduction of Welsh in the Bronze & Iron Ages.
Some sources:
Wales and the Britons 350-1064, Charles-Edwards, TM
The Welsh Language: A History, Janet Davies Rgima ( talk) 20:57, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
In this massive article there is not one word on the cost to British taxpayers for funding / promoting the Welsh language. There's also no comment on the educational impact of having to learn an additional language local language / not learn a foreign language. No mention of it's impact on attracting non-welsh business. There's also no mention of the number of monolingual welsh speakers. Billyoffland ( talk) 06:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
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I find it ironic that references from Welsh news articles are forbidden in the Welsh language section of Wiki.. "Tidied, c/e, re-entered references with better structure, reduced cites-5 is too many and they should be in English" what if there are no other references to a topic in the English language? does it make the article invalid? what about history pages that source latin, French, Spanish, German books? are they invalid? I can agree to have supplied too many references, but the argument over not using references from other languages seems silly to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hogyncymru ( talk • contribs) 14:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
So, you're saying Welsh articles are allowed? 'preferred' can be a flexible word, it is not a solid yes/no, I see no reason why articles in other languages shouldn't be included, one in English and another in Welsh.. what's the problem? you have one to check up on, the other can be ignored if you wish, as long as it's valid, but it's the same with the Welsh wiki, the Welsh wiki uses references from English articles.. so why is it more flexible there and less so here?
The infobox claims 1,500-5,000 native speakers in Argentina. The lead claims the same. These claims need to be removed. First, what is a native speaker? Although no clear definition exists, we can rely on the definition given by WP. [1] The template guidelines mean that a native language and an L1 language are the same, so we can assume that as a fact here. It is not directly stated but unambiguously intended - read the template guide and the L1 article to see the connection. Next, look at the sources given. None of them claim L1 (or L2) speakers, just 'speakers'. These is not good enough to use as RSs because they are open to interpretation, meaning the claim of native speakers is not supported. This is why I will delete the statements and the references given - because the claim cannot be amended to reflect the sources. It is disappointing that these misleading weasel claims about a large community of L1 speakers in Argentina still exists. More justice to the Welsh language would be given by detailed and accurate analysis of the revitalisation efforts currently going on in Argentina, and the dying out of true L1 speakers during the 20th century, rather than constantly hammering the L1 line. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 00:29, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Could you please read my post before giving a fixed POV reply. Where have I said there are no Welsh speakers, L1 or L2, in Argentina, England, or anywhere else? The citations did not back the statements so the statements were unsupported so I removed them. If you want them put back then the onus is on you to provide a reliable source that backs the claim, namely that there are L1 speakers in England and Argentina. So, prove it ! Failing that the claims remain OR. I expected some form of disagreement with what I have done, but I thought it would be about the interpretation of 'native' speaker or something else open to a modicum of interpretation. Please do not put back uncited claims. The talk page is here for a reason. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:18, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
The term 'native speaker' is defined here on wp, so whether or not it is not defined in wider usage isn't relevant. In that sense we are fortunate. The WP definition is native speaker = L1 speaker (not L2, or L1+L2). All the sources used refer to 'speakers', which could be L1 or L2, so they do not clearly back the claim made. Snowded thinks agrees with me but he thinks I am being pedantic. I prefer being accurate, pedantic or not. Census data is important but it needs to be handled carefully because it is often primary evidence. The authorities publish the opinions of the box ticking public by passing on the data. It data becomes a secondary source if it is endorsed by the writer/publisher of that data. I agree with Sionk that a form of footnote would be a good way of using census data that is not very clearly from a secondary source. Back to the citations currently in use: aside from the native speaker topic, one of the citations [2] says the number of Welsh speakers is believed to be between only 1,500 and 5,000, meaning it is making no such claim as to the number of current speakers. This is basic reference checking, see RS. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 22:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree Sionk, we use the best available source (unless it is clearly unreliable). It is your, and others, interpretation, and hence use, of the source that is disputed. Being 'believed to be' is not a claim by a source that the statement is correct. The source, here wales.com, is merely 'passing over' the opinion/s of other unnamed persons, making the statement by wales.com unreliable. Whether wales.com is a reliable source or not is irrelevant in this case. The source also says 'speakers', not 'native speakers' as the source states. This is a fundamentally important distinction and very far from being pedantic. So, I agree, the source does mean exactly what it says, but that is not the same as what you think it says. Yet again, please provide a reliable source for the statement that there are 1,500 'native speakers' of Welsh in Patagonia (I assume we agree to exclude native speakers from Wales who happen to be in Patagonia.) If you cannot do that then the statement in the lead should be removed or left as unknown, ie use a '?'. Further explanation can be made in the body of the article. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:55, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
Please stop vandalising the page by spamming "WELSH LANGUAGE IS DYING". You are in fact making the Welsh language die even faster by dis-encouraging potential learners of the language from accessing resources about the language. -- BlobcatsAreCool ( talk) 09:54, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Speak Welsh. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed, Rosguill talk 12:57, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Although it was great to see MPs singing Calon Lân in parliament, I think the fact is not notable for this article. It was not an official use of the Welsh Language in parliament. It is a current issue but creates no precedents for the language itself. It should not be in this article. Sorry. Sirfurboy ( talk) 16:18, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
As Sirfurboy already said, it's hard to see how this is WP:DUE. Furthermore, arguments consisting of nothing more than an aggressive "That's your opinion" and nothing else do not contribute to the discussion. If users want to include material that has been challenged, the onus is on them to provide an argument for it. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:53, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
To my mind, the long-standing text places Welsh as a Brittonic language in a family with Kernow and Bretton. Within that family, it can also be termed Western Brittonic but that is a less rich description and links to a very weak and uninformative article. Making the Western point later in the article is fine. ----- Snowded TALK 19:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Garik: found a very good source that discusses the etymology of Welsh and updated the history. However, I made some minor tweaks based on what the source actually says. Also the URL does not work for that ref although I have a copy of the paper. Not sure if the URL is just temporarily down - may need to fix it. I also cited the actual relevant pages. In the same section, Garik expanded other information and introduced four new sources, one after another. My reference that he removed actually refers to all this information in a single source, so I have put my source back under the WP:OVERCITE policy. I am not precious about my source, so if one of the four deleted sources will work on its own, feel free to put that back. However the information is parenthetical, so one source should do.
The new information about etymology of Cymraeg needs a source too. I expect I can find one shortly. Additionally, removal of the south Wales pronunciation here means we do not mention that pronunciation at all. Not sure if it is notable enough to go in the lead or not. I will leave that for others, but just flagging that Garik removed it from here. -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 12:54, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
All discussions from pre-2017 have been archived at Talk:Welsh language/Archive 6. The next archive should be Talk:Welsh language/Archive 7. This has been done due to nothing being added to discussions - in some cases since 2008! This will hopefully start new discussions on how to improve the article. – Dyolf87 ( talk) 17:14, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Welch language. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 10#Welch language until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. –
Deacon Vorbis (
carbon •
videos) 16:50, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi @
Gareth Griffith-Jones:. In your reverts you said "inclusion is doubtful"
[5]. What has led you to this perspective that made you revert the maps? What are your concerns? Maps are based on Pryce's research, and each map is heavily referenced on what scholarship they draw from at their pages on wiki commons. I have also included academic sources that explain his methodology. Pryce is a respected scholar who did much research on the Welsh language and his data has been continuously republished by scholarship of the years, including reproductions of his maps (which i have also included links too).
Resnjari (
talk) 18:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
I have just made the following revision: /* Middle Welsh */ Restored the gallery (of maps) to this section rather than back into the Modern Welsh section. Cheers to
Resnjari and those who have posted above.
Gareth Griffith-Jones (
contribs) (
talk) 11:28, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
I want to suggest that this part of the introduction:
According to the United Kingdom Census 2011, 19 percent of residents in Wales aged three and over were able to speak Welsh. According to the 2001 Census, 21 percent of the population aged 3+ were able to speak Welsh. This suggests that there was a decrease in the number of Welsh speakers in Wales from 2001 to 2011 – from about 582,000 to 562,000.
The Annual Population Survey conducted by the Office for National Statistics for the year ending in June 2020 concluded that 866,600 Welsh residents (28.6 percent) aged three or over were able to speak Welsh. The results for the most recent National Survey for Wales (2018-2019) suggest that 22 percent of the population aged three and over were able to speak Welsh, with an additional 16 percent noting that they had "some Welsh speaking ability"
be changed to just this:
Around 20–30% of Welsh residents are able to speak Welsh.
There is just too much detail about the various surveys of the number of speakers. An introduction should just give a summary of the topic, I can't think of any other language article that gives so much attention to speaker surveys. (Additionally "This suggests that there was a decrease" does not seem to fit, surely the number is within margin of error.)
– Thjarkur (talk) 23:47, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Does the diacritic ^ (as seen on ŵ and ŷ) have its own Welsh language name? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 12:04, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
They do indeed. A circumflex in Welsh is known as an 'acen grom' [curved accent(uation)] (or less formally, a 'to bach' [little/small roof]. A diaeresis is known as a 'didolnod' [separating mark]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:7C09:AA00:AD2C:55F3:F5B7:FF90 ( talk) 18:07, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The acen grom is also known as a hirnod ("long sign"). So that's three names.--- Ehrenkater ( talk) 18:10, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
For completeness (although these are rarer) the acute accent is an acen ddyrchafedig ("elevated/ascending mark") and a grave accent is an acen drom ("sad or heavy mark") or acen ddysgenedig ("descending mark"). See Welsh orthography.
Note that the word acen is feminine, so the accompanying adjectives take the feminine form.--- Ehrenkater ( talk) 18:16, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
You'll find most of them in "Gramadeg y Gymraeg", by Peter Wynn Thomas, University of Wales Press, 1996 edition, Appendix IV, sections 18 and 37-41.--- Ehrenkater ( talk) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Why is there no mention that the British government suppressed and prevented the use of Welsh in schools and thereby contributed to near extinction of the language? Here is an article that partially deals with the issue: Welsh Not. This should be addressed in the history section and also mentioned in the summary. MythicalAlien ( talk) 23:12, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Okay, this may be utter speculation, but was Welsh historically spoken in Ireland? I mean, after the conquest of Ireland in the 17th century, many British people settled there. This led to extensive colonies of Scots speakers in Ulster, and to a West Country English-based variety in Leinster (a dialect now known as Irish English). So it seems likely to me that Welsh speakers must have settled there, too. And if they did, their language may well have survived for some generations. Can anyone teel me whether this was the case? Steinbach ( talk) 11:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
There's all sorts of information about people who "can speak Welsh", and people who learn it in school, and use it in information technology, profesional engineering, and all kinds of stuff. What there isn't, or hardly, is information about how the situation actually is on the ground. Because a living language, if it's really a living language, is spoken at home, in the pub, at the butcher's, with the lady at the hospital information desk... As of now, one gets the feeling that Welsh has been largely reduced to folklore (as is certainly the case with Irish). 90.186.83.177 ( talk) 23:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
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Not only should there be a Welsh books section, but also a full article on Welsh books. Cambrian Bibliography is an old list of some of the first books. I've been asked to add other books from the new and rather exciting Commons:Category:Scans in Welsh from the Internet Archive (950 new pdfs!) over the next few months, and therefore can't afford the time. John Jones ( talk) 15:43, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
[8] - there is currently no mention within the article of non-White Welsh people and how they interact with and feel about the way the Welsh language is implemented in Wales. The irony is this is exactly the pattern of bias highlighted in the report! (Considering Plaid Cymru’s *dismal* record on dealing with ethnic minority issues within Wales, this is hardly a surprise). It may be uncomfortable for some White Welsh people to here, but it needs to be addressed! 2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:5948:DC5B:70B7:C3A4 ( talk) 23:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
The article went from 4 to 7 footer templates in the last couple of days. I have pulled out a couple. As per the guidelines, there should be an editor discussion about which templates are best for the article.
The article is about the Welsh languages which is one of the languages of the UK. Yes, it is also clearly about Welsh linguistics andWelsh language and languages of Wales, but there is a lot of overlap in these. Also is Wales topics then deemed too broad? Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 14:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
AuH2ORepublican, to underscore the point Roger 8 Roger made in their edit summary, note that the Patagonian Welsh article itself has been tagged for ten years for a lack of citations. I might run through it myself this week and source what I can and remove the rest. In any event, it isn't clear that there's an active dialect. If all the speakers are learning it in school, absent evidence to the contrary, I expect that it's from standard Welsh materials. Largoplazo ( talk) 19:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)