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![]() | This article contains a translation of Walter Model from de.wikipedia. |
Added picture of him. I took it from German wikipedia, i suppose it is legimate to do so? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.251.151.185 ( talk • contribs).
"Furthermore, he appointed a Waffen-SS officer as his adjutant at Army Group North in 1944"
Is there any citation available for this?
In 1981 I interveiwed Herr Walter Thomas, a German historian, who claimed to have been Model's adjutant while the 2nd SS Panzer Corps was in R&R at Arnhem
He claimed to have been shielded by Model from Gestapo officials who suspected his involvement in the Assassination plot, due his NOT being in either the SS or the Party
He was demoted after the Wacht am Rhein and was not with Model's staff when he committed suicide.
As an aside, he also confirmed that not only did Model believe that the Arnhem paratroopers were sent to kidnap him (and he presumed other Generals as well) but that when the Market Garden plans taken from a British Glider (NOT a dispatch rider) were handed to him, he dismissed them as fakes, and didn't bother even to read them to see if they matched up with the situation on the ground until day 3
Model also refused to believe reports of the XXX Corps' advance until he received a dispatch from Bittrich, which included an American paratrooper's helmet & a mudguard from a British armoured car
Finally, Herr Thomas said that Model was so impressed by the bravery of the 1st Paras, that he wanted to personally offer them an honourable surrender, but was persuaded that it was too dangerous
In the event a junior officer called Bischoff (sorry don't know his rank, I missed it out in my notes) was sent, leading to the famous "I'm sorry, we don't have the facilities to take you all prisoner" answer
Sadly, the only publication for all of this is an old school magazine, so is Original Research and unsuitable for the main article, but I thought some might find it interesting chrisboote 12:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
It actually was Walther, with an "h". The spelling of hids name at the top should be corrected. Ojevindlang ( talk) 22:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Recent edits have been of poor grammar, sometimes incoherent and un-encyclopaedic. They have also removed referenced passages without discussion or appropriate explanation. While bold editing isn't necessarily wrong, this is a Featured Article, and to keep it that way, editing standards need to be higher. I am verging on reverting all of these edits until interested editors engage in proper discussion. Hohum ( talk) 13:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Rubbish. It was not removed. If you continue this line of action I'll have to get admins involved. Dapi89 ( talk) 19:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Knispel ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC).
Maintaining a continuous defenseline is not about having no outposts in front . Models idea about the arrangement of an infantrydivision in defense can be found in a document of 08.04.1944 of which a quote follows(GFM Model,Dokumentation eines Soldatenlebens ,Hannsgeorg Model and Dermot Bradley Biblio Verlag 1991,p171). Part of a document with 7 annexes which contain the general instructions for battle to ensure that all units of AGr Northukraine, particularly units coming from other fronts and newly setup units apply the same principles based on experience :
"The schematic sketch in annexe serves as plan for the arrangement of an infantrydivision in defense. It uses the experiences made in the latest battles. The aim to be achieved is the better conservation of the battle strength of our Grenadiere while at the same time more destruction is inflicted on the attacking enemy. As has always to be observed, the enemy wants to achieve fast breakthroughs with the highest power of his artillery preparation fire. 1) the plan must ,by an advanced area, make our grenadiere evade the full preparatory fire and by the delayed advance of the enemy to the HKL give them the necessary time to deploy all local reserves. The advanced area will according to the terrain have to be 1-3 km deep. It is to be occupied by advanced posts richly armed with machineguns. Barbed wire is to be used againts enemy raids, circular defense. The accomodations of the advanced post are behind the HKL. The advanced posts are commanded by the regiments in their sectors. After the fighting the advanced area is to be reoccupied." In this quote one can clearly see that Model wanted a line of outposts in front of the HKL. Bruchmuller ( talk) 15:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Model did not beleive in the fragmented use of Panzerdivisions as the following quote from an order of 08.04.1944 shows:
" Use of armor units: 2. Because the command of Panzer divisions outside the framework of the Panzer corps is in many cases not yet mastered, the permanent training of all command organisms of the Army corps which do not belong to the mobile troops is urgently necessary. The officer that is not trained in the command of these units tends to the fragmented use. He forgets easily in crisises that tanks and Panzergrenadiere belong indivisibly together. If one takes the tanks away from a Panzer division, then one robs it from its decisive thrust power and intentionally makes their use without their usual backbone ineffective. Short detachments to the mobile troops will help best here"(Annexe 3 to Obkdo H.Gr Nordukraine Ia Nr 1633/44 g.kdos v. 8.4.1944 as reproduced in 'Generalfeldmarshall Walter Model Dokumentation eines Soldatenlebens' Biblio Verlag 1991 p. 173)" Bruchmuller ( talk) 15:19, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
After checking Newton's sources, Panzer battles by Mellenthin and Ordnung im Chaos by Balck, it turns out that the transferral of the panzerdivisions of XLVIII Panzercorps to III Panzercorps and the putting XLVIII Panzer corps in charge of infantrydivisions preceded the diasagreement with Model about the conduct of defense which is not surprising as it is a disagreement about how to hold a defenseline by infantry. In addition, both Balck( in Ordnung im Chaos) and Mellenthin mention that Model finally agreed with them. There is no mention of a punishment of XLVIII Panzer corps in Balck and Mellenthin. Better to leave out the whole piece as Newton's statements are a at least a partial misrepresentation of Balck and Mellenthin. Bruchmuller ( talk) 17:39, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
This article is a good candidate for conversion to {{ sfn}} templates, as it already is using Harvard style citations and is sourced almost exclusively to books. Using the sfn template means that the <ref> tags can be omitted, and any citations that are used more than once are automatically collated. Improvements can be undertaken with online sources as well. If there are no objections, the work will be started sometime in the next week or two. Please post any comments or discussion in the meantime. Regards, -- Dianna ( talk) 14:35, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
A quick scans shows that this article is not up to modern FA levels: numerous paragraphs, more than ten, are missing citations. With this, this wouldn't even pass a modern milhist B-class review. As such, I intend to have this reviewed and delisted through WP:FAR, through I'd be of course happier if it was improved beforehand, making this unnecessary. Ping 2007 FAC discussion participants: User:Hongooi, User:Mercenary2k, User:Mcattell, User:Leithp, User:SandyGeorgia and major contributors User:Bardrick, User:MisterBee1966, User:Knispel. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
"When he departed Army Group North in March 1944 after being sent to Ukraine, the army group's chief of staff remarked: "Schweinfurt (Schweinfurt is a city in Bavaria. Schwein fort would mean the pig is gone." (the swine is gone)." (sic) There's a source, but it's a book; the next sentence states that he had a relevant nickname but I struggle to parse that sentence. Did the army group's chief of staff simply say "Schweinfurt!", and the rest of the sentence is just a mangled attempt to explain the reference? - Ashley Pomeroy ( talk) 16:15, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Here is some comments for improvements.
Hope you find some of these comments useful. Peace. Jonas Vinther ( speak to me!) 00:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Friedrich von Mellenthin's 1977 book is used twice in the article, to support these two passages:
As a fellow general, von Mellenthin should not be used as a source to comment on Model's state of mind, at least not without the classification as such. Since two sources are used, it's not clear what comes from Newton and what comes from Mellenthin, i.e. the statements around 'professional, apolitical soldier' and 'misgivings.' I suggest Mellenthin be removed and, if someone has Newton, can the statements be cross-checked against him?
References
-- K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:21, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Paul Carell's 1966 book is used for numerous cites throughout the article:
He cannot be considered a WP:RS source as being too close to the subject of the article. I suggest that Carell be removed as source (and the dubious material attributed solely to him - took great risks, energized his men, etc - be deleted) and an then an attempt be made at untangling what comes from Newton and what comes from Carell.
References
--- K.e.coffman ( talk) 05:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Please let me know if there are any objections. K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
I suggest removing these two books from Further reading; the first one is WP:SELFPUBLISH and the other is from a dubious author Franz Kurowski:
Suggestions / feedback? K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
I removed the Wehrmachtbericht mentioned: diff. For a high-ranking commander, it's nothing unusual to be mentioned in a propaganda broadcast. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I undid the change; the edit summary appears to be pointy & not specific to how it improves the article:
If there are specific objections to these edits, please discuss on Talk. K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:32, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:46, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
After headline "Suicide" - "His decision to commit suicide was sealed..." stands to reason. But to state he committed suicide in order to avoid prosecution in the USSR (during the final weeks of the war, at the front... ?) Who can know that ? And no source given either... Removed. (jumping subject ->) Norman Davies (Europe at War) writes a few interesting lines on Model as general at the battlefield. Boeing720 ( talk) 03:09, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
I think I've read , after Friedrich Paulus promotion to Field Marshal at Stalingrad, and as he was taken prisoner by the Red Army, Hitler then said "This is the last time I promoted a Field Marshal during this war", disappointed on Paulus , as the first German Field Marshal taken prisoner ever. But Hitler didn't keep this word this time either ? Are we certain Model was promoted as later as in 1944 ? Boeing720 ( talk) 01:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:08, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
@ GorgeCustersSabre: I reinstated my earlier edit but made sure to retain the quotebox I deleted the first time around. Please know that my edit is mostly aimed at polishing and MOS-compliance, and I sometimes make a judgement call on whether or not to repurpose or remove something. Perhaps I made a bad judgement call this time, and so I apologize if I overdid it! Take care! Jay D. Easy ( t • c) 13:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
So, we had this passage at the beginning of the Battle of Moscow section|
Model was placed in command of XLI Panzer Corps vice Georg-Hans Reinhardt...
which I changed to
Model was placed in command of XLI Panzer Corps replacing Georg-Hans Reinhardt...
but an editor, @ Hawkeye7:, rolled it back, fine, so let's talk about it.
The two passages say the same thing, but "vice" is the Latin term for "replaced" (pretty much). WIktionary doesn't say that the Latin term is or was commonly used in German, altho maybe. Even so, would prefer to replace the Latin term with the English one, as it is clearer. Herostratus ( talk) Herostratus ( talk) 03:30, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Walter Model article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Walter Model is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Walter Model ( final version) received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on 17 June 2023 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article contains a translation of Walter Model from de.wikipedia. |
Added picture of him. I took it from German wikipedia, i suppose it is legimate to do so? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.251.151.185 ( talk • contribs).
"Furthermore, he appointed a Waffen-SS officer as his adjutant at Army Group North in 1944"
Is there any citation available for this?
In 1981 I interveiwed Herr Walter Thomas, a German historian, who claimed to have been Model's adjutant while the 2nd SS Panzer Corps was in R&R at Arnhem
He claimed to have been shielded by Model from Gestapo officials who suspected his involvement in the Assassination plot, due his NOT being in either the SS or the Party
He was demoted after the Wacht am Rhein and was not with Model's staff when he committed suicide.
As an aside, he also confirmed that not only did Model believe that the Arnhem paratroopers were sent to kidnap him (and he presumed other Generals as well) but that when the Market Garden plans taken from a British Glider (NOT a dispatch rider) were handed to him, he dismissed them as fakes, and didn't bother even to read them to see if they matched up with the situation on the ground until day 3
Model also refused to believe reports of the XXX Corps' advance until he received a dispatch from Bittrich, which included an American paratrooper's helmet & a mudguard from a British armoured car
Finally, Herr Thomas said that Model was so impressed by the bravery of the 1st Paras, that he wanted to personally offer them an honourable surrender, but was persuaded that it was too dangerous
In the event a junior officer called Bischoff (sorry don't know his rank, I missed it out in my notes) was sent, leading to the famous "I'm sorry, we don't have the facilities to take you all prisoner" answer
Sadly, the only publication for all of this is an old school magazine, so is Original Research and unsuitable for the main article, but I thought some might find it interesting chrisboote 12:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
It actually was Walther, with an "h". The spelling of hids name at the top should be corrected. Ojevindlang ( talk) 22:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Recent edits have been of poor grammar, sometimes incoherent and un-encyclopaedic. They have also removed referenced passages without discussion or appropriate explanation. While bold editing isn't necessarily wrong, this is a Featured Article, and to keep it that way, editing standards need to be higher. I am verging on reverting all of these edits until interested editors engage in proper discussion. Hohum ( talk) 13:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Rubbish. It was not removed. If you continue this line of action I'll have to get admins involved. Dapi89 ( talk) 19:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Knispel ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC).
Maintaining a continuous defenseline is not about having no outposts in front . Models idea about the arrangement of an infantrydivision in defense can be found in a document of 08.04.1944 of which a quote follows(GFM Model,Dokumentation eines Soldatenlebens ,Hannsgeorg Model and Dermot Bradley Biblio Verlag 1991,p171). Part of a document with 7 annexes which contain the general instructions for battle to ensure that all units of AGr Northukraine, particularly units coming from other fronts and newly setup units apply the same principles based on experience :
"The schematic sketch in annexe serves as plan for the arrangement of an infantrydivision in defense. It uses the experiences made in the latest battles. The aim to be achieved is the better conservation of the battle strength of our Grenadiere while at the same time more destruction is inflicted on the attacking enemy. As has always to be observed, the enemy wants to achieve fast breakthroughs with the highest power of his artillery preparation fire. 1) the plan must ,by an advanced area, make our grenadiere evade the full preparatory fire and by the delayed advance of the enemy to the HKL give them the necessary time to deploy all local reserves. The advanced area will according to the terrain have to be 1-3 km deep. It is to be occupied by advanced posts richly armed with machineguns. Barbed wire is to be used againts enemy raids, circular defense. The accomodations of the advanced post are behind the HKL. The advanced posts are commanded by the regiments in their sectors. After the fighting the advanced area is to be reoccupied." In this quote one can clearly see that Model wanted a line of outposts in front of the HKL. Bruchmuller ( talk) 15:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Model did not beleive in the fragmented use of Panzerdivisions as the following quote from an order of 08.04.1944 shows:
" Use of armor units: 2. Because the command of Panzer divisions outside the framework of the Panzer corps is in many cases not yet mastered, the permanent training of all command organisms of the Army corps which do not belong to the mobile troops is urgently necessary. The officer that is not trained in the command of these units tends to the fragmented use. He forgets easily in crisises that tanks and Panzergrenadiere belong indivisibly together. If one takes the tanks away from a Panzer division, then one robs it from its decisive thrust power and intentionally makes their use without their usual backbone ineffective. Short detachments to the mobile troops will help best here"(Annexe 3 to Obkdo H.Gr Nordukraine Ia Nr 1633/44 g.kdos v. 8.4.1944 as reproduced in 'Generalfeldmarshall Walter Model Dokumentation eines Soldatenlebens' Biblio Verlag 1991 p. 173)" Bruchmuller ( talk) 15:19, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
After checking Newton's sources, Panzer battles by Mellenthin and Ordnung im Chaos by Balck, it turns out that the transferral of the panzerdivisions of XLVIII Panzercorps to III Panzercorps and the putting XLVIII Panzer corps in charge of infantrydivisions preceded the diasagreement with Model about the conduct of defense which is not surprising as it is a disagreement about how to hold a defenseline by infantry. In addition, both Balck( in Ordnung im Chaos) and Mellenthin mention that Model finally agreed with them. There is no mention of a punishment of XLVIII Panzer corps in Balck and Mellenthin. Better to leave out the whole piece as Newton's statements are a at least a partial misrepresentation of Balck and Mellenthin. Bruchmuller ( talk) 17:39, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
This article is a good candidate for conversion to {{ sfn}} templates, as it already is using Harvard style citations and is sourced almost exclusively to books. Using the sfn template means that the <ref> tags can be omitted, and any citations that are used more than once are automatically collated. Improvements can be undertaken with online sources as well. If there are no objections, the work will be started sometime in the next week or two. Please post any comments or discussion in the meantime. Regards, -- Dianna ( talk) 14:35, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
A quick scans shows that this article is not up to modern FA levels: numerous paragraphs, more than ten, are missing citations. With this, this wouldn't even pass a modern milhist B-class review. As such, I intend to have this reviewed and delisted through WP:FAR, through I'd be of course happier if it was improved beforehand, making this unnecessary. Ping 2007 FAC discussion participants: User:Hongooi, User:Mercenary2k, User:Mcattell, User:Leithp, User:SandyGeorgia and major contributors User:Bardrick, User:MisterBee1966, User:Knispel. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
"When he departed Army Group North in March 1944 after being sent to Ukraine, the army group's chief of staff remarked: "Schweinfurt (Schweinfurt is a city in Bavaria. Schwein fort would mean the pig is gone." (the swine is gone)." (sic) There's a source, but it's a book; the next sentence states that he had a relevant nickname but I struggle to parse that sentence. Did the army group's chief of staff simply say "Schweinfurt!", and the rest of the sentence is just a mangled attempt to explain the reference? - Ashley Pomeroy ( talk) 16:15, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Here is some comments for improvements.
Hope you find some of these comments useful. Peace. Jonas Vinther ( speak to me!) 00:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Friedrich von Mellenthin's 1977 book is used twice in the article, to support these two passages:
As a fellow general, von Mellenthin should not be used as a source to comment on Model's state of mind, at least not without the classification as such. Since two sources are used, it's not clear what comes from Newton and what comes from Mellenthin, i.e. the statements around 'professional, apolitical soldier' and 'misgivings.' I suggest Mellenthin be removed and, if someone has Newton, can the statements be cross-checked against him?
References
-- K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:21, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Paul Carell's 1966 book is used for numerous cites throughout the article:
He cannot be considered a WP:RS source as being too close to the subject of the article. I suggest that Carell be removed as source (and the dubious material attributed solely to him - took great risks, energized his men, etc - be deleted) and an then an attempt be made at untangling what comes from Newton and what comes from Carell.
References
--- K.e.coffman ( talk) 05:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Please let me know if there are any objections. K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
I suggest removing these two books from Further reading; the first one is WP:SELFPUBLISH and the other is from a dubious author Franz Kurowski:
Suggestions / feedback? K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
I removed the Wehrmachtbericht mentioned: diff. For a high-ranking commander, it's nothing unusual to be mentioned in a propaganda broadcast. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I undid the change; the edit summary appears to be pointy & not specific to how it improves the article:
If there are specific objections to these edits, please discuss on Talk. K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:32, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:46, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
After headline "Suicide" - "His decision to commit suicide was sealed..." stands to reason. But to state he committed suicide in order to avoid prosecution in the USSR (during the final weeks of the war, at the front... ?) Who can know that ? And no source given either... Removed. (jumping subject ->) Norman Davies (Europe at War) writes a few interesting lines on Model as general at the battlefield. Boeing720 ( talk) 03:09, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
I think I've read , after Friedrich Paulus promotion to Field Marshal at Stalingrad, and as he was taken prisoner by the Red Army, Hitler then said "This is the last time I promoted a Field Marshal during this war", disappointed on Paulus , as the first German Field Marshal taken prisoner ever. But Hitler didn't keep this word this time either ? Are we certain Model was promoted as later as in 1944 ? Boeing720 ( talk) 01:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:08, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
@ GorgeCustersSabre: I reinstated my earlier edit but made sure to retain the quotebox I deleted the first time around. Please know that my edit is mostly aimed at polishing and MOS-compliance, and I sometimes make a judgement call on whether or not to repurpose or remove something. Perhaps I made a bad judgement call this time, and so I apologize if I overdid it! Take care! Jay D. Easy ( t • c) 13:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
So, we had this passage at the beginning of the Battle of Moscow section|
Model was placed in command of XLI Panzer Corps vice Georg-Hans Reinhardt...
which I changed to
Model was placed in command of XLI Panzer Corps replacing Georg-Hans Reinhardt...
but an editor, @ Hawkeye7:, rolled it back, fine, so let's talk about it.
The two passages say the same thing, but "vice" is the Latin term for "replaced" (pretty much). WIktionary doesn't say that the Latin term is or was commonly used in German, altho maybe. Even so, would prefer to replace the Latin term with the English one, as it is clearer. Herostratus ( talk) Herostratus ( talk) 03:30, 18 June 2023 (UTC)