This
level-4 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Can someone add the Russian word? -- Kaihsu 21:04, 2004 Feb 10 (UTC)
Yuri Dolgorukii on this web-page is the sixth son. Why is it so?
Just added roman transliteration to cyrillic entries in the intro. They should be correct... T. S. Rice 05:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Why you keep talking about Lithuanian lands (even a city Kiev, was ancient Lithuanian city Kaunungardas, like Kaunas in Lithuania) under Rus occupation as ruthenian lands? Later Lithuania regained her lands by creating GDL. All toponims and city names indicates the russian occupation of Balts' lands starting Kiev in which they placed their capital, however whole Belorus, Briansk and Smolensk was still inhabited by Lithuanians who later regained their independence by creating GDL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.112.200 ( talk) 21:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Should Duchy of Vladimir redirect here? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Please discuss changes to the dates and other parameters in the infobox. The most recent unexplained reversion includes a reference that supports the existing version of the page, listing Alexander III as the last Grand Duke of Vladimir, with a reign ending in 1331. It does not list Ivan I among the leaders of Vladimir, nor support an end-date of 1340. Please do not make changes without providing edit summaries, and please do not continue to make these unsupported changes of dates and other parameters without gaining consensus here first. Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 07:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I have locked moving of the article. If you want to move the article please file a proper WP:RM. I do not have my own opinion on the matter, although through years of editing I learned to respect opinions of User:Ghirlandajo Alex Bakharev ( talk) 08:00, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
He lived 174 years? Really? 2A00:1028:83B2:106A:7101:3D9F:3626:2F20 ( talk) 19:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
The notion that Vladimir(-Suzdal) became a "grand principality" upon the
Sack of Kiev (1169) appears to be invented tradition. The earliest reference to a "grand prince of Vladimir" I can find in Martin 2007 is p. 164: As early as 1243, Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich (...) was awarded not only the title of grand prince of Vladimir, but also that of grand prince of Kiev.
That's it. All other references to Vladimir or Vladimir-Suzdal being a "grand principality" and its head a "grand prince" apparently date from later. It may be that in fact the title of "grand prince of Vladimir" is entirely post-1240, and has no precedent in pre-Mongol, Kievan Rus' times. I'm curious how historiography has resolved this question.
It is similar to how we know the earliest princes of Kiev weren't yet consistently called grand either, during their own lifetimes, by themselves, until most probably Yaroslav the Wise (see Dimnik 2004). Later attributions don't count. Nor do honorifics count; e.g. some chronicler saying in retrospect that this or that prince should be known as Foo the Great as an honorific (this appears to have happened with Volodimer/ Vladimir the Great); that's not part of the dynastic title we're interested in. We want to know what is historically accurate for the time in which said prince lived, and is referred to in the sources of that time. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
1157: Prince Iurii Dolgorukii died; Prince Andrei Iur'evich Bogoliubskii became prince of Vladimir
1177: (...) Prince Vsevolod Iur'evich became prince of Vladimir
1212: (...) Prince Vsevolod of Vladimir died; Prince Konstantin Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir (...)
1218: (...) Prince Konstantin Vsevolodich died; Prince Iurii Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir (...)
1220: Prince Iurii Vsevolodich of Vladimir attacked Volga Bulgars
1238: Mongols conquered Vladimir; Mongols defeated northern Rus' princes at Battle of Sit'; Prince Iurii Vsevolodich of Vladimir killed at Battle of Sit'; Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir
1243: Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich confirmed as prince of Vladimir by Batu, khan of Golden Horde
1263: (...) Prince Alexander Nevsky died; Prince Iaroslav Iaroslavich became grand prince of Vladimir (...)(boldening by me)
Two years later [1269], according to the Novgorod First Chronicle, the "great Vladimir baskak Argaman" helped grand prince Yaroslav impose his will on a recalcitrant Novgorod and then frightened off the German knights threatening the city.Well, that would be relatively easy to check whether the NPL actually uses the term "grand prince" for Yaroslav sub anno 1269. But we're interested in whether it is actually used earlier than 1243. Something like this should be found in the Kievan Chronicle in the Hypatian Codex or the Suzdalian Chronicle in the Laurentian Codex. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 11:09, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
кнѧзь же вьзрѣвъ на н҃бо"The prince looked upon heaven" (this is probably an interpolation). Later it narrates:
горожанѣ же Бо҃любьци розграбиша домъ кнѧжь."But the townspeople of Bolyubovo [sic] plundered the house of the prince." ("Bogolyubovo" is misspelt, and "the noblemen" are omitted).
Горожане же боговлюбьскып' и дворяне разграбиша дом княжь"The townspeople and the noblemen of Bogolyubovo plundered the prince's house".
Петръ же ѥму ѿтѧ руку десную. оубьѥн же бъıс̑ в суб̑ту на ночь. (...) горожане же Бо҃любьскъıи и дворане разграбиша домъ кнѧжь.
An enemy, hitherto unknown, appeared: the godless Moabites called Tatars [who] attacked the Polovcian land. (...) All the princes held council in Kiev and decided that it would be better for them to engage the Tatars in a foreign land than in their own. At that time Mstislav Romanovic was reigning in Kiev, Mstislav [Svjatoslavic] in Kozel'sk and Černigov, and Mstislav Mstislavic in Halyč. These were the senior princes of Rus'. Jurij, the grand prince of Suzdal', was not present at this council.
Then after some time had elapsed, Vasilko went to great prince Jurij in Suzdal' [to attend] the wedding of his brother-in-law.This is evidently the same Yuri II of Vladimir, now called "great prince of Suzdal'". "great prince Jurij" is mentioned again under 1237.
Jaroslav, the great prince of Suzdal', was poisoned and Mixail, the prince of Černigov who would not worship their bush was stabbed to death with a knife together with his boyar Fedor.
This
level-4 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Can someone add the Russian word? -- Kaihsu 21:04, 2004 Feb 10 (UTC)
Yuri Dolgorukii on this web-page is the sixth son. Why is it so?
Just added roman transliteration to cyrillic entries in the intro. They should be correct... T. S. Rice 05:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Why you keep talking about Lithuanian lands (even a city Kiev, was ancient Lithuanian city Kaunungardas, like Kaunas in Lithuania) under Rus occupation as ruthenian lands? Later Lithuania regained her lands by creating GDL. All toponims and city names indicates the russian occupation of Balts' lands starting Kiev in which they placed their capital, however whole Belorus, Briansk and Smolensk was still inhabited by Lithuanians who later regained their independence by creating GDL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.112.200 ( talk) 21:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Should Duchy of Vladimir redirect here? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Please discuss changes to the dates and other parameters in the infobox. The most recent unexplained reversion includes a reference that supports the existing version of the page, listing Alexander III as the last Grand Duke of Vladimir, with a reign ending in 1331. It does not list Ivan I among the leaders of Vladimir, nor support an end-date of 1340. Please do not make changes without providing edit summaries, and please do not continue to make these unsupported changes of dates and other parameters without gaining consensus here first. Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 07:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I have locked moving of the article. If you want to move the article please file a proper WP:RM. I do not have my own opinion on the matter, although through years of editing I learned to respect opinions of User:Ghirlandajo Alex Bakharev ( talk) 08:00, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
He lived 174 years? Really? 2A00:1028:83B2:106A:7101:3D9F:3626:2F20 ( talk) 19:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
The notion that Vladimir(-Suzdal) became a "grand principality" upon the
Sack of Kiev (1169) appears to be invented tradition. The earliest reference to a "grand prince of Vladimir" I can find in Martin 2007 is p. 164: As early as 1243, Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich (...) was awarded not only the title of grand prince of Vladimir, but also that of grand prince of Kiev.
That's it. All other references to Vladimir or Vladimir-Suzdal being a "grand principality" and its head a "grand prince" apparently date from later. It may be that in fact the title of "grand prince of Vladimir" is entirely post-1240, and has no precedent in pre-Mongol, Kievan Rus' times. I'm curious how historiography has resolved this question.
It is similar to how we know the earliest princes of Kiev weren't yet consistently called grand either, during their own lifetimes, by themselves, until most probably Yaroslav the Wise (see Dimnik 2004). Later attributions don't count. Nor do honorifics count; e.g. some chronicler saying in retrospect that this or that prince should be known as Foo the Great as an honorific (this appears to have happened with Volodimer/ Vladimir the Great); that's not part of the dynastic title we're interested in. We want to know what is historically accurate for the time in which said prince lived, and is referred to in the sources of that time. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
1157: Prince Iurii Dolgorukii died; Prince Andrei Iur'evich Bogoliubskii became prince of Vladimir
1177: (...) Prince Vsevolod Iur'evich became prince of Vladimir
1212: (...) Prince Vsevolod of Vladimir died; Prince Konstantin Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir (...)
1218: (...) Prince Konstantin Vsevolodich died; Prince Iurii Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir (...)
1220: Prince Iurii Vsevolodich of Vladimir attacked Volga Bulgars
1238: Mongols conquered Vladimir; Mongols defeated northern Rus' princes at Battle of Sit'; Prince Iurii Vsevolodich of Vladimir killed at Battle of Sit'; Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir
1243: Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich confirmed as prince of Vladimir by Batu, khan of Golden Horde
1263: (...) Prince Alexander Nevsky died; Prince Iaroslav Iaroslavich became grand prince of Vladimir (...)(boldening by me)
Two years later [1269], according to the Novgorod First Chronicle, the "great Vladimir baskak Argaman" helped grand prince Yaroslav impose his will on a recalcitrant Novgorod and then frightened off the German knights threatening the city.Well, that would be relatively easy to check whether the NPL actually uses the term "grand prince" for Yaroslav sub anno 1269. But we're interested in whether it is actually used earlier than 1243. Something like this should be found in the Kievan Chronicle in the Hypatian Codex or the Suzdalian Chronicle in the Laurentian Codex. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 11:09, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
кнѧзь же вьзрѣвъ на н҃бо"The prince looked upon heaven" (this is probably an interpolation). Later it narrates:
горожанѣ же Бо҃любьци розграбиша домъ кнѧжь."But the townspeople of Bolyubovo [sic] plundered the house of the prince." ("Bogolyubovo" is misspelt, and "the noblemen" are omitted).
Горожане же боговлюбьскып' и дворяне разграбиша дом княжь"The townspeople and the noblemen of Bogolyubovo plundered the prince's house".
Петръ же ѥму ѿтѧ руку десную. оубьѥн же бъıс̑ в суб̑ту на ночь. (...) горожане же Бо҃любьскъıи и дворане разграбиша домъ кнѧжь.
An enemy, hitherto unknown, appeared: the godless Moabites called Tatars [who] attacked the Polovcian land. (...) All the princes held council in Kiev and decided that it would be better for them to engage the Tatars in a foreign land than in their own. At that time Mstislav Romanovic was reigning in Kiev, Mstislav [Svjatoslavic] in Kozel'sk and Černigov, and Mstislav Mstislavic in Halyč. These were the senior princes of Rus'. Jurij, the grand prince of Suzdal', was not present at this council.
Then after some time had elapsed, Vasilko went to great prince Jurij in Suzdal' [to attend] the wedding of his brother-in-law.This is evidently the same Yuri II of Vladimir, now called "great prince of Suzdal'". "great prince Jurij" is mentioned again under 1237.
Jaroslav, the great prince of Suzdal', was poisoned and Mixail, the prince of Černigov who would not worship their bush was stabbed to death with a knife together with his boyar Fedor.