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Archived discussion from spring 2005 to August 8, 2005. Let's hope this movement to the archive will suppress all the blankings and reversions. Hal Jespersen 00:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Please do not edit this archive. If you have new comments, put them into Talk:Virginia_Military_Institute
Need a source for the claim that "VMI's nearly $300 million endowment, the largest per student endowment of any public college or university in the United States." A quick Google shows other colleges claiming the same thing. User:Rillian
Sources are as follows: The Petersen's Guide to Colleges, Unique Colleges, US NEWS, and the Princeton Review, to name a few. User:Backrow
Mistral3, I assure that the following "advice" given by some users here adhere to Wikipedia standards. Please refer yourself to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution The source for per sudent endowment is an obvious misinformation. While the VMI is ranked #65, there are several (and naturally much larger) public universities and colleges that "outrank" you. Nonetheless your information is based on your own calculation and a pure generalization. You have specifcally stated in your article: "of any public college or university in the United States." Even if this information was correct, even if this link was crucial to the article in regards to the VMI, even if this information had an appropriate link with the appropriate information, the the fact is this information is a pure speculation and thus an opinion (further evident from your source, or lack thereof). We are not arguing, rather we wish that the rules of Wikipedia are followed, something that you ironically seem to know so much about. While this article has seen much improvement, the stubborness to prove some (un)worthy point is astounding. Again the intentions of these discussions were to insure that the VMI does not provide false information as its fundamental purpose is--afterall--an encyclopedia. Take note of the disputes listed by user Rillian. Discussions are welcome and are needed; erasing the page does not erase the dilemma at hand here. User:24.58.207.70
I was just wondering why the Halloween Picture controversy paragraph was removed. IT was reported in several reputable news sources and was a fairly big story and scandal. I'm putting it back in for now. If someone could give a good reason why it shouldn't be in I'll accept it. -- Gary123 01:52, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is anyone else who worked on this article opposed to the changes made by 68.65.33.175? The article as of 03:47, 16 May 2005 may have had some writing problems but all in all it was a much more complete and in depth article than before the changes. Heres a link to the article before the changes were made http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Virginia_Military_Institute&oldid=13961696 I think youll find it to be much more in depth.-- Gary123 22:40, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Based on the following sources, notwithstanding the 2005 spike - a five year average of 40% appears to be the most accurate. Rillian 01:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what is going on with all these military pages, but it is just proof of the unfortunate unreliability of some articles placed on Wikipedia. However what is important to note is that Wikipedia is not at fault here, but rather, the maturity of some of its users. Even without being in the military, the "advertisement" of your institution is blatant and intentionally filled with misinformation and "facts" supported by specks of hard evidence, without any confirmed proof. Looking into the history of this discussion only proves it. Using big names such as "Princeton Review" do not justify your information. I would advise that you look up your information correctly and place your article in a non-bias manner. This is an encyclopedia, not a billboard for advertising a product you are affiliated to.
Your article is excellent in regards of its contents, however--again--it is mixed in with factual errors. It is my hope that you will take some of my own research into consideration, subsequently allowing you to correct your own mistakes. I will not play the role of this "Rillian" and try to make actual edits myself, but just realize that there are people who look at this website for fair, accurate, and unbias research.
While I congratulate for VMI being in the placed among the best liberal schools, it is unfortunately not Number 1 and has not been for any 3 years. It is ranked number 77. Please be advised of the following sites: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_3753_brief.php http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/libartco/tier1/t1libartco_brief.php It appears that Williams College, followed by Swarthmore and Amherst are the top 2 liberal arts schools in the United States
Please also be aware of your information on the institution recieving the largest per student endowment: http://www.virginia.edu/uvimco/openings_3.htm While it is not ranked number one, its amount of $2.0 Billion well-exceeds the VMI. Even without researching, any person of little intelligence and common sense, could easily tell that with a student body of "1,200" would not easily surpass any larger state-college of at least 20,000 students.
Those are just few examples that are an obvious error to even a "civilian". This message is not intended for any other reader but to the person who is directing the progress of this article. Thus it has no effect on whether or not this message gets deleted as long as that specific user reads it (its eventual deletion is an obvious evidence). Again, your article is excellent historically, please keep it that way. Your personal message may reach out to the vulnerable, but to the rest it is well-too exposed and identifiable. That is when Wikipedia (a great resource) is often handicapped of its usefuleness; to researchers, students, and curious minds. User:24.58.207.70 00:46, 14 July 2005
In the future, read articles carefully and with an open mind. VMI has been ranked the #1 PUBLIC Liberal Arts college for the last four years (see source), In 2005, 50% of grads did accept a commission (see source), and 270 million is the largest PER STUDENT endowment of any PUBLIC institution. Those are all facts and you are trying to distort them. Your problem is you are not reading the facts carefully before you try to distort them and put a different spin on them. Sorry for your lack of comprehension. What about the erroneous facts you have entered about South Carolina's military college (see history)...nice try, but you are the biased one, you poor guy. Please leave this site alone and stick to your own propaganda pages. User:207.144.53.83 07:48, 14 July 2005
The facts mentioned on VMI's page are correct. Please see the following site about the #1 ranking: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/libartco/libartco_pub_brief.php Check Petersen's and several other sources for the endowment information (per capita and public are key words that should be noted). Obviously, the user Rillian is not paying attention to the words within the article before he deletes them or incorrectly revises them. In 2005, nearly 50% of students were commissioned, but I'm removing that because it really doesn't matter. User:132.50.10.46 15:38, 14 July 2005
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that strictly adheres to the policy of NPOV. Consequently, this article should describe VMI factually. It is not a booster site, it is not the VMI web site, it is not a place for "my school is great, you school is worse" comments. From the policy "Many POV battles would be made much easier through the practice of good research. Facts are not points of view in and of themselves. So an easy way to avoid making a statement that promotes a point of view is to find a reputable source for a fact and cite the source."
Some current disputes:
I welcome your comments. Rillian 03:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
You should consider putting captions on all your thumb-nailed photos. I would do the edits myself, but don't know precisely what the pictures represent. 15:28, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone might want to check the quote that VMI "is the oldest state military college in the United States and the nation's only classical state military college, meaning all VMI students are cadets." I know it's the oldest, but I think all students at the Citadel are cadets... unless something has changed withing the last ten years or so... I could be wrong, just thought I'd bring that to someone's attention. User:24.73.87.14 12:56 2 August 2005
All the facts presented in the article have been proven and documented. Can any other reader see the point of leaving erroneous and wrong info in the discussion pages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.176.34 ( talk • contribs) 10:39 7 August 2005
For my own sanity, why don't the two parties begin using the talk page of the article, in the following way: one party articulates the additions/negations that they favour while the other party explains what their objections are; and vice versa. El_C 08:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Proposals moved to the section below
The contested change is as follows:
Remove from the section Virginia Military Institute#Academic the following:
... and replace it with (referred to in discussion below as the contested information):
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.199.179 ( talk) 13:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The placement of ranking information being contested is exactly quoted from [9]. At this link, the following is given verbatim:
Arguments for the above were made at User_talk:El_C#Virginia_Military_Institute. I will make the following additional points here:
Conclusion: Editors should not be barred from putting the contested information into the Virginia Military Institute page, and user:Rillian should stop bouncing the contested information up against the WP:PRESTIGE guideline for a 39th time. 98.204.199.179 ( talk) 12:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
While I don't disagree with everything listed above, when multiple anonymous IP editors make repeated accusations of POV, some of them from the very start of their editing career on wikipedia, and tar uninvolved editors with the same brush, and when similar accusation have been made by other editors who have repeatedly refused to adhere to policy (not guideline, but policy), it become very easy to do a similar thing - tar other editors with a brush of being unreasonable regarding policy. After having dealt with both UserKoonoonga and UserMarshall3, their harassment, and their absolute unwillingness to follow policy regarding citation ... and then those two editors disappear, and numerous IP editors begin similarly worded attacks, well, assuming good faith is very hard to do.-- Vidkun ( talk) 13:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Forget about all the ips, forget about all the reverts —both sides need to let go of those grievances in hopes of it advancing their position— focus on what you want to add, where; what you want to remove, where. Keep it simple, try to avoid overlinking or de-linking (i.e. make sure everything links everywhere fine, once), because the above is a bit of a mess. The less clutter, the better. El_C 14:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Remove from the section Virginia Military Institute#Academic the following:
... and replace it with (referred to in discussion below as the contested information):
|
So, anyone objects to the above addition? If so, why? Let's start there. El_C 14:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
How about adding the above two while still sticking to the normal prose?
In 2008 VMI ranked third, after the United States Naval Academy and the United States Military Academy, in the US News and World Report rankings of the 27 public liberal arts colleges in the United States.[6][7] Compared to the top 100 U.S. liberal arts colleges, public and private, it ranked 71st out of 122 (including ties).[8] |
El_C 15:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
References
This article seems over categorized. If there is a Category:Virginia Military Institute, than all the categories on this article should go on that upper category. Than, the only category that should remain on this article is "Category:Virginia Military Institute". Thanks! FieldMarine ( talk) 23:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The history section ends with WWII. Has nothing of note occurred since then? Shouldn't 'admission of women' go there? Will Beback talk 05:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't know much about the site but I am a VMI cadet and have heard rumors that Mel brooks is a notable alumnus. On Mel's page there is a statement that he went to VMI with a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.165.130 ( talk) 17:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Is this code for Someone noticed that the female cadets could not meet the standards and that they decided that graduated female cadets was more important than maintaining one standard for all cadets?
And is this in important topic in its own right? Has it affected unit cohesion or morale in any way? Or is everything just find and dandy? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 20:51, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Why does VMI continue to advance the myth that they are the only college whose entire student body fought as a unit in battle? In the first place The Citadel, Georgia Military Institute and Florida State all had their entire cadet corps or student body fight in Civil War battles; William and Marys whole student body fight the British in the Revolutionary War. Second VMIs own history shows that at least 23 cadets remained on campus to guard it so obviously it could not have been the "entire student body". Also the claim of being the only school to have earned a battle streamer is obviously false as the previously mentioned schools as well as the Merchant Marine Academy all have been awarded battle streamers for wartime service. As for the third bogus claim of being entitled to fix bayonets as result of New Market, wrong again; that is a privilege afforded MILITARY UNITS not CADET CORPS. If you want to keep deluding yourselves fine, just stop posting this trash on public websites. Bob80q ( talk) 23:25, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Dear Bob80q, (Please do not delete entries to this page made by others because you disagree with them or because the truth is too hard for you to handle. I left your comments below...) As I wrote before: You need to check your facts on citadel, because it's definitely YOU who is delusional in this case. I'm not surprised though, citadel folks have tried for years to convince us that the citadel fired the first shots of the Civil War--ridiculous!!!! For a reality check, Bob, just look at how many times you've edited the citadel pages AND VMI's page. FACTS: 1. Your reference from VMI's archives is a collection of personal archived LETTERS, it's not a scholarly source/historical guide. 2. The citadel DID NOT EVEN EXIST DURING THE CIVIL WAR--What were the two SC campuses called again? SC Arsenal or SC Military Institute? The Citadel was given that name in the 1920's and the current campus was founded/relocated in the late 70's--"the original SC military institute" is a Hampton Inn in Charleston!! They have great drinks and a fine breakfast by the way ;) 3. Your claim of cadets fighting as a unit is COMPLETELY false as the 2 SC schools were closed-down. At best, various small groups from the 2 "SC military colleges" entered into various small skirmishes here or there and were not organized as a group. Suggest you check YOUR facts, stop your peacocking, and stick to the "citadel" pages in the future — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.113.47.75 ( talk) 20:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
your classless and immature postings are not worthy of this or any other public site nor will I dignify them with comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob80q ( talk • contribs) 18:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
PS - you have been reported for making personal attacks and posting inaccurate and unreferenced information Bob80q ( talk) 23:42, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Bob80, "....all VMI students are military cadets....." is completely true. Regardless of ANY VMI student's affiliation, they wear a VMI uniform and live in barracks...period. I know it is vastly different from your school which enrolls civilian students, etc. But in the case of MECEPs and STA21s:they are not at VMI. Now, you want to talk about false claims, your claim of battles for "the arsenal" as it was called during the war is completely false. A small handful of red-neck kids sporadically running thru the lowcountry skirmishing when the school was out of business does not qualify as fighting as a unit in battle... sorry. Furthermore, your school makes official false claims. For example in US News, the citadel still lists 100% of its undergrads as living on campus. I know this is a false claim because I'm from Charleston and I have a family member pursuing his bachelor's there in conjunction with the community college. He's not even a cadet, but he proudly wears a citadel ring! Suggest you stick to your el cidadel pages and leave VMI alone. VMI is something you just don't understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.95.139.83 ( talk) 05:39, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
again deleted claim previously indicated as inaccurate regarding entire corps being at New Market, PLEASE refer to your own archives that clearly state that at least 25-30 cadets remained on campus during the battle; see the letter from Gen. Francis Smith. Also see http://www.citadel.edu/root/brief-history#duringwbts, the entire corps of the SCMA (Citadel) fought at the Battle of Tulifinny so even if VMIs entire corps had fought at New Market its not the only time And while you're at it stop the classless, childish insults you gutlessly make anonymously; you are not good representatives of your school. Bob80q ( talk) 11:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, Mr. IP User. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.113.45.229 ( talk) 04:13, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
NAS I can delete your inaccurate posts just as easily as you add them, your gutless unsigned insults show what a classless frat boy you are and trying to continually change The Citadels wikipage is a sign of your immaturity. As always a sad example of your school. Bob80q ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
In an attempt to reach consensus on the Rhodes Scholar and "unlike any other SMC" disputes, I made a few edits that I will explain here. Perhaps all who make further edits will also explain their choices here?
I welcome a good discussion on these issues. VMI is a great school and deserves a great WP article. Ocalafla ( talk) 21:14, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Despite your family connections with the citadel, the absence of any mention in the website in this case does mean there has not been a rhodes scholar--this fact was also verified via the honors program director at the school, who's name is ironically Lt Col Rhodes... Bottom line: citadel and N. Georgia have not graduated a rhodes scholar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiia ( talk • contribs) 04:05, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Additionally, pushing this POV (regardless of its accuracy) in the lead of the article is out of line per WP:LEAD. You should also consider discussing this on the talk page before engaging in edit warring. I'm not going to change it back at this time as I want discussion to ensue, not an edit war. This article is about VMI, not The Citadel, Texas A&M, West Point, or any other school. As such, unless it is relevant to include (such as the modern source for ROTC is Norwich or that some of Texas A&M's traditions/language is rooted in West Point history/linguistics), we really don't need the "My school is better than your school!" comparisons. Buffs ( talk) 20:38, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
You all enjoy the competition, but count me out... Disagree with Buffs comments... and for the record, I do not care about Texas A&M--couldn't care less, because this article is about VMI. The fact that VMI is an all-military corps of 1300 cadets is a significant difference from all other SMCs--if anyone thinks pointing out this fact is denigrating their schools, then THAT is THEIR burden and THEIR bias entering into the equation. You mentioned honor codes, etc.--VMI is the only school which conducts a "drum-out" ceremony for cadets who violate the code. This is also a noteworthy fact which was removed. I can tell you with absolute certainty, both as someone who is very familiar with and has been to the other SMCs and as someone who taught at a US Service Academy, VMI's honor code is unlike any other school out there... period. This fact was mentioned, but was removed perhaps because it hurt feelings or made someone's school feel denigrated. Why? Is the uniqueness of this fact not worth mentioning even when all the other SMCs have admitted they do not still utilize or adhere to a "single-sanction" honor code, but VMI still does and will continue to do so? Bottom line for this article: Stating "unlike any of the other SMCs and in keeping with its founding principles" illustrates a factually supported facet of this Institution which is noteworthy in nature. The fact that VMI is different from all other SMCs in this capacity is not "fluff" and is relevant to the article, whether it makes aggies or others feel denigrated or not... Hawaiia ( talk) 23:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC) For the record, the article in its present form is suitable to me. The Rhodes Scholar section has been "diluted" enough not to offend and the intro looks acceptable. Hawaiia ( talk) 23:51, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
The answer to these questions is simple: WP policy supports including well-known, substantiated and simple facts: Please look again at the smcs and you will agree: 1. "Unlike any of the other smcs and in keeping with its founding principles" is a "no-brainer": - Are any other smcs all-military? NO, they all offer "other" programs for civilians, community college students, and/or night studies, graduate programs, etc.--check websites, wikipedia articles, US News, etc. - What was the original mission of VMI (and most of the other smcs)? Answer: To produce educated undergraduates of a military institute--a mission which has not changed at VMI to include night students, graduate students, or distance learning programs--like the other smcs. Bottom Line: these are no brainer statements and I will ensure they remain. - In regards to the rhodes scholars: do what you will, but you both know citadel and N.GA have not graduated any--if they had, they would be talking about it--The sources have been provided on the other schools and VMI, yet you still refuse to accept, and at this point I do not care. Look, Buffs and Ocalafla, you both are making this far more complicated than necessary. You know full well that VMI is the only all-cadet smc still in accordance with it's mission upon founding--VMI is far different from the others, yet you both want to continue this song and dance. The facts are both substantiated and noteworthy--therefore they require inclusion per WP policy. Again, I will ensure they remain in the intro. Hawaiia ( talk) 20:26, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Hawaiia ( talk) 01:39, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
It reads like a recruiting pamphlet, not what WP:LEAD dictates it should. I'm not saying the given information there shouldn't be included in the article, but the lead is supposed to be a summary of the article. As such, everything in the lead should be discussed more in-depth in the article. As it stands now, almost all of it is information that is NOT discussed in the rest of the article. Responses requested. Buffs ( talk) 15:23, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Probably should have list of commandants someplace. If here, list should be "hidden." Student7 ( talk) 00:15, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
The 2006 Laws document appears to be lost and not archived. However, a quick look at the current (?) document suggests that it's a valid replacement and still consistent with the text. It's here: http://www.kappaalphaorder.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2013-Working-Edition-Kappa-Alpha-Laws-FULL-PAGE-LAWS-74th-Convention-REGS-Dec.-16-2013.pdf
I've archived it here: https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.kappaalphaorder.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2013-Working-Edition-Kappa-Alpha-Laws-FULL-PAGE-LAWS-74th-Convention-REGS-Dec.-16-2013.pdf
Having said that, I know almost nothing about frats, so I'm at risk to misinterpreting. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment? If no-one does, I'll make the change in a few days. -- Otus scops ( talk) 21:28, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
i want to apply what are process and how much is the tuition fee — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.190.3.157 ( talk) 15:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Re: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] (list incomplete)
I have been watching this silly ping pong game for too long, enough is enough. At least three editors, Bob80q, 69.1.22.120, and 155.225.144.115, are engaged in a slow-burn edit war, a violation of Wikipedia policy, with no end in sight. WP:EW:
An editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring regardless of whether their edits were justifiable: "but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring" is no defense.
Any interested editors are invited to present their case here, using nothing but reliable published sources. Please refrain from assertions of personal knowledge about this, as Wikipedia is not about personal knowledge.
As far as I can tell, the source currently given does not support the statement; unless a better one can be found and cited, or unless someone can show where that source directly supports the statement with no WP:SYNTH required, the statement should be removed. It matters not what is true, only what is verifiable. Even if the source supported the statement, I don't think it would be acceptable to use VMI's own website as a source for such a claim-to-fame about itself. Either way, the current sourcing is inadequate.
Comments like the edit summary "Please note: As a wiki troll, Bob80 has a history of under-editing the VMI site--please check history and note edits)" violate Wikipedia:Assume good faith, a widely accepted behavioral guideline, and border on violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks, another policy. Comments like "your gutless unsigned insults show what a classless frat boy you are" will result in a trip to WP:ANI and possible sanction; the editor who wrote that should consider this prior warning.
If no consensus on this question can be reached locally, I will start a request for comment about it. But kindly cease the edit warring now. Thank you. ― Mandruss ☎ 17:25, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
The entire student body? Were there no VMI cadets who were loyal to the Union, as obviously there were graduates who were loyal? -- Orange Mike | Talk 19:37, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
@ Warhog123: Re your revert, multiple points.
This is specifically allowed per MOS:MILRANKS and not considered 'honorific', this was discussed on other pages and also on the Wikimedia commons page. Editors obviously need to be more familiar with the rules. Bob80q ( talk) 00:24, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The article has only a single picture of cadets (a small one at that). Recommend adding some more (surely there are some cadets following this page... Buffs ( talk) 22:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
The "mine's more austere than yours" mantra is uncited/unproven thereby failing WP:SOURCE. Additionally, per WP:LEDE It would need to be in the body of the article; it isn't. If you want to add it in, please cite your sources and expand upon it in the body of the article. If you believe my assessment to be incorrect, please explain why. Buffs ( talk) 21:16, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
We don't need to "send this up to an admin". We should be able to discuss this here. Address the issues brought up, don't just add it back. I've also removed your revision "...making it the largest non-service academy military commissioning source in the United States. In fact, VMI holds the distinction amongst all other Senior Military Colleges of having the highest percentage of it's graduates commission in the military." The only thing the source shows is how many graduates and what percentage they had. It doesn't mention the other SMCs nor does it say whether the percentage is higher or lower. Lastly, the source is the subject of the article. While it's certainly a respectable institution, please use 3rd party sources where possible. Short version, your revisions a) lack a source that backs up the claims and/or b) fails WP:LEDE. Feel free to add it back with a source for your claim AND make sure that the Lede is expanded upon in the body of the article. Buffs ( talk) 15:27, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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Buffs ( talk) 14:39, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
...sure, but what is wrong with the "West Point of the South" thing? Drmies ( talk) 01:59, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
someone needs to update the article concerning these recent findings: https://schev.edu/docs/default-source/documents/vmi-special-investigation-team-final-reporta8b3c750bece61aeb256ff000079de01.pdf [1] (June 2021) 161.69.112.11 ( talk) 17:58, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
References
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archived discussion from spring 2005 to August 8, 2005. Let's hope this movement to the archive will suppress all the blankings and reversions. Hal Jespersen 00:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Please do not edit this archive. If you have new comments, put them into Talk:Virginia_Military_Institute
Need a source for the claim that "VMI's nearly $300 million endowment, the largest per student endowment of any public college or university in the United States." A quick Google shows other colleges claiming the same thing. User:Rillian
Sources are as follows: The Petersen's Guide to Colleges, Unique Colleges, US NEWS, and the Princeton Review, to name a few. User:Backrow
Mistral3, I assure that the following "advice" given by some users here adhere to Wikipedia standards. Please refer yourself to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution The source for per sudent endowment is an obvious misinformation. While the VMI is ranked #65, there are several (and naturally much larger) public universities and colleges that "outrank" you. Nonetheless your information is based on your own calculation and a pure generalization. You have specifcally stated in your article: "of any public college or university in the United States." Even if this information was correct, even if this link was crucial to the article in regards to the VMI, even if this information had an appropriate link with the appropriate information, the the fact is this information is a pure speculation and thus an opinion (further evident from your source, or lack thereof). We are not arguing, rather we wish that the rules of Wikipedia are followed, something that you ironically seem to know so much about. While this article has seen much improvement, the stubborness to prove some (un)worthy point is astounding. Again the intentions of these discussions were to insure that the VMI does not provide false information as its fundamental purpose is--afterall--an encyclopedia. Take note of the disputes listed by user Rillian. Discussions are welcome and are needed; erasing the page does not erase the dilemma at hand here. User:24.58.207.70
I was just wondering why the Halloween Picture controversy paragraph was removed. IT was reported in several reputable news sources and was a fairly big story and scandal. I'm putting it back in for now. If someone could give a good reason why it shouldn't be in I'll accept it. -- Gary123 01:52, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is anyone else who worked on this article opposed to the changes made by 68.65.33.175? The article as of 03:47, 16 May 2005 may have had some writing problems but all in all it was a much more complete and in depth article than before the changes. Heres a link to the article before the changes were made http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Virginia_Military_Institute&oldid=13961696 I think youll find it to be much more in depth.-- Gary123 22:40, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Based on the following sources, notwithstanding the 2005 spike - a five year average of 40% appears to be the most accurate. Rillian 01:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what is going on with all these military pages, but it is just proof of the unfortunate unreliability of some articles placed on Wikipedia. However what is important to note is that Wikipedia is not at fault here, but rather, the maturity of some of its users. Even without being in the military, the "advertisement" of your institution is blatant and intentionally filled with misinformation and "facts" supported by specks of hard evidence, without any confirmed proof. Looking into the history of this discussion only proves it. Using big names such as "Princeton Review" do not justify your information. I would advise that you look up your information correctly and place your article in a non-bias manner. This is an encyclopedia, not a billboard for advertising a product you are affiliated to.
Your article is excellent in regards of its contents, however--again--it is mixed in with factual errors. It is my hope that you will take some of my own research into consideration, subsequently allowing you to correct your own mistakes. I will not play the role of this "Rillian" and try to make actual edits myself, but just realize that there are people who look at this website for fair, accurate, and unbias research.
While I congratulate for VMI being in the placed among the best liberal schools, it is unfortunately not Number 1 and has not been for any 3 years. It is ranked number 77. Please be advised of the following sites: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_3753_brief.php http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/libartco/tier1/t1libartco_brief.php It appears that Williams College, followed by Swarthmore and Amherst are the top 2 liberal arts schools in the United States
Please also be aware of your information on the institution recieving the largest per student endowment: http://www.virginia.edu/uvimco/openings_3.htm While it is not ranked number one, its amount of $2.0 Billion well-exceeds the VMI. Even without researching, any person of little intelligence and common sense, could easily tell that with a student body of "1,200" would not easily surpass any larger state-college of at least 20,000 students.
Those are just few examples that are an obvious error to even a "civilian". This message is not intended for any other reader but to the person who is directing the progress of this article. Thus it has no effect on whether or not this message gets deleted as long as that specific user reads it (its eventual deletion is an obvious evidence). Again, your article is excellent historically, please keep it that way. Your personal message may reach out to the vulnerable, but to the rest it is well-too exposed and identifiable. That is when Wikipedia (a great resource) is often handicapped of its usefuleness; to researchers, students, and curious minds. User:24.58.207.70 00:46, 14 July 2005
In the future, read articles carefully and with an open mind. VMI has been ranked the #1 PUBLIC Liberal Arts college for the last four years (see source), In 2005, 50% of grads did accept a commission (see source), and 270 million is the largest PER STUDENT endowment of any PUBLIC institution. Those are all facts and you are trying to distort them. Your problem is you are not reading the facts carefully before you try to distort them and put a different spin on them. Sorry for your lack of comprehension. What about the erroneous facts you have entered about South Carolina's military college (see history)...nice try, but you are the biased one, you poor guy. Please leave this site alone and stick to your own propaganda pages. User:207.144.53.83 07:48, 14 July 2005
The facts mentioned on VMI's page are correct. Please see the following site about the #1 ranking: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/libartco/libartco_pub_brief.php Check Petersen's and several other sources for the endowment information (per capita and public are key words that should be noted). Obviously, the user Rillian is not paying attention to the words within the article before he deletes them or incorrectly revises them. In 2005, nearly 50% of students were commissioned, but I'm removing that because it really doesn't matter. User:132.50.10.46 15:38, 14 July 2005
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that strictly adheres to the policy of NPOV. Consequently, this article should describe VMI factually. It is not a booster site, it is not the VMI web site, it is not a place for "my school is great, you school is worse" comments. From the policy "Many POV battles would be made much easier through the practice of good research. Facts are not points of view in and of themselves. So an easy way to avoid making a statement that promotes a point of view is to find a reputable source for a fact and cite the source."
Some current disputes:
I welcome your comments. Rillian 03:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
You should consider putting captions on all your thumb-nailed photos. I would do the edits myself, but don't know precisely what the pictures represent. 15:28, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone might want to check the quote that VMI "is the oldest state military college in the United States and the nation's only classical state military college, meaning all VMI students are cadets." I know it's the oldest, but I think all students at the Citadel are cadets... unless something has changed withing the last ten years or so... I could be wrong, just thought I'd bring that to someone's attention. User:24.73.87.14 12:56 2 August 2005
All the facts presented in the article have been proven and documented. Can any other reader see the point of leaving erroneous and wrong info in the discussion pages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.176.34 ( talk • contribs) 10:39 7 August 2005
For my own sanity, why don't the two parties begin using the talk page of the article, in the following way: one party articulates the additions/negations that they favour while the other party explains what their objections are; and vice versa. El_C 08:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Proposals moved to the section below
The contested change is as follows:
Remove from the section Virginia Military Institute#Academic the following:
... and replace it with (referred to in discussion below as the contested information):
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.199.179 ( talk) 13:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The placement of ranking information being contested is exactly quoted from [9]. At this link, the following is given verbatim:
Arguments for the above were made at User_talk:El_C#Virginia_Military_Institute. I will make the following additional points here:
Conclusion: Editors should not be barred from putting the contested information into the Virginia Military Institute page, and user:Rillian should stop bouncing the contested information up against the WP:PRESTIGE guideline for a 39th time. 98.204.199.179 ( talk) 12:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
While I don't disagree with everything listed above, when multiple anonymous IP editors make repeated accusations of POV, some of them from the very start of their editing career on wikipedia, and tar uninvolved editors with the same brush, and when similar accusation have been made by other editors who have repeatedly refused to adhere to policy (not guideline, but policy), it become very easy to do a similar thing - tar other editors with a brush of being unreasonable regarding policy. After having dealt with both UserKoonoonga and UserMarshall3, their harassment, and their absolute unwillingness to follow policy regarding citation ... and then those two editors disappear, and numerous IP editors begin similarly worded attacks, well, assuming good faith is very hard to do.-- Vidkun ( talk) 13:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Forget about all the ips, forget about all the reverts —both sides need to let go of those grievances in hopes of it advancing their position— focus on what you want to add, where; what you want to remove, where. Keep it simple, try to avoid overlinking or de-linking (i.e. make sure everything links everywhere fine, once), because the above is a bit of a mess. The less clutter, the better. El_C 14:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Remove from the section Virginia Military Institute#Academic the following:
... and replace it with (referred to in discussion below as the contested information):
|
So, anyone objects to the above addition? If so, why? Let's start there. El_C 14:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
How about adding the above two while still sticking to the normal prose?
In 2008 VMI ranked third, after the United States Naval Academy and the United States Military Academy, in the US News and World Report rankings of the 27 public liberal arts colleges in the United States.[6][7] Compared to the top 100 U.S. liberal arts colleges, public and private, it ranked 71st out of 122 (including ties).[8] |
El_C 15:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
References
This article seems over categorized. If there is a Category:Virginia Military Institute, than all the categories on this article should go on that upper category. Than, the only category that should remain on this article is "Category:Virginia Military Institute". Thanks! FieldMarine ( talk) 23:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The history section ends with WWII. Has nothing of note occurred since then? Shouldn't 'admission of women' go there? Will Beback talk 05:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't know much about the site but I am a VMI cadet and have heard rumors that Mel brooks is a notable alumnus. On Mel's page there is a statement that he went to VMI with a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.165.130 ( talk) 17:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Is this code for Someone noticed that the female cadets could not meet the standards and that they decided that graduated female cadets was more important than maintaining one standard for all cadets?
And is this in important topic in its own right? Has it affected unit cohesion or morale in any way? Or is everything just find and dandy? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 20:51, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Why does VMI continue to advance the myth that they are the only college whose entire student body fought as a unit in battle? In the first place The Citadel, Georgia Military Institute and Florida State all had their entire cadet corps or student body fight in Civil War battles; William and Marys whole student body fight the British in the Revolutionary War. Second VMIs own history shows that at least 23 cadets remained on campus to guard it so obviously it could not have been the "entire student body". Also the claim of being the only school to have earned a battle streamer is obviously false as the previously mentioned schools as well as the Merchant Marine Academy all have been awarded battle streamers for wartime service. As for the third bogus claim of being entitled to fix bayonets as result of New Market, wrong again; that is a privilege afforded MILITARY UNITS not CADET CORPS. If you want to keep deluding yourselves fine, just stop posting this trash on public websites. Bob80q ( talk) 23:25, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Dear Bob80q, (Please do not delete entries to this page made by others because you disagree with them or because the truth is too hard for you to handle. I left your comments below...) As I wrote before: You need to check your facts on citadel, because it's definitely YOU who is delusional in this case. I'm not surprised though, citadel folks have tried for years to convince us that the citadel fired the first shots of the Civil War--ridiculous!!!! For a reality check, Bob, just look at how many times you've edited the citadel pages AND VMI's page. FACTS: 1. Your reference from VMI's archives is a collection of personal archived LETTERS, it's not a scholarly source/historical guide. 2. The citadel DID NOT EVEN EXIST DURING THE CIVIL WAR--What were the two SC campuses called again? SC Arsenal or SC Military Institute? The Citadel was given that name in the 1920's and the current campus was founded/relocated in the late 70's--"the original SC military institute" is a Hampton Inn in Charleston!! They have great drinks and a fine breakfast by the way ;) 3. Your claim of cadets fighting as a unit is COMPLETELY false as the 2 SC schools were closed-down. At best, various small groups from the 2 "SC military colleges" entered into various small skirmishes here or there and were not organized as a group. Suggest you check YOUR facts, stop your peacocking, and stick to the "citadel" pages in the future — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.113.47.75 ( talk) 20:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
your classless and immature postings are not worthy of this or any other public site nor will I dignify them with comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob80q ( talk • contribs) 18:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
PS - you have been reported for making personal attacks and posting inaccurate and unreferenced information Bob80q ( talk) 23:42, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Bob80, "....all VMI students are military cadets....." is completely true. Regardless of ANY VMI student's affiliation, they wear a VMI uniform and live in barracks...period. I know it is vastly different from your school which enrolls civilian students, etc. But in the case of MECEPs and STA21s:they are not at VMI. Now, you want to talk about false claims, your claim of battles for "the arsenal" as it was called during the war is completely false. A small handful of red-neck kids sporadically running thru the lowcountry skirmishing when the school was out of business does not qualify as fighting as a unit in battle... sorry. Furthermore, your school makes official false claims. For example in US News, the citadel still lists 100% of its undergrads as living on campus. I know this is a false claim because I'm from Charleston and I have a family member pursuing his bachelor's there in conjunction with the community college. He's not even a cadet, but he proudly wears a citadel ring! Suggest you stick to your el cidadel pages and leave VMI alone. VMI is something you just don't understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.95.139.83 ( talk) 05:39, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
again deleted claim previously indicated as inaccurate regarding entire corps being at New Market, PLEASE refer to your own archives that clearly state that at least 25-30 cadets remained on campus during the battle; see the letter from Gen. Francis Smith. Also see http://www.citadel.edu/root/brief-history#duringwbts, the entire corps of the SCMA (Citadel) fought at the Battle of Tulifinny so even if VMIs entire corps had fought at New Market its not the only time And while you're at it stop the classless, childish insults you gutlessly make anonymously; you are not good representatives of your school. Bob80q ( talk) 11:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, Mr. IP User. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.113.45.229 ( talk) 04:13, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
NAS I can delete your inaccurate posts just as easily as you add them, your gutless unsigned insults show what a classless frat boy you are and trying to continually change The Citadels wikipage is a sign of your immaturity. As always a sad example of your school. Bob80q ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
In an attempt to reach consensus on the Rhodes Scholar and "unlike any other SMC" disputes, I made a few edits that I will explain here. Perhaps all who make further edits will also explain their choices here?
I welcome a good discussion on these issues. VMI is a great school and deserves a great WP article. Ocalafla ( talk) 21:14, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Despite your family connections with the citadel, the absence of any mention in the website in this case does mean there has not been a rhodes scholar--this fact was also verified via the honors program director at the school, who's name is ironically Lt Col Rhodes... Bottom line: citadel and N. Georgia have not graduated a rhodes scholar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiia ( talk • contribs) 04:05, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Additionally, pushing this POV (regardless of its accuracy) in the lead of the article is out of line per WP:LEAD. You should also consider discussing this on the talk page before engaging in edit warring. I'm not going to change it back at this time as I want discussion to ensue, not an edit war. This article is about VMI, not The Citadel, Texas A&M, West Point, or any other school. As such, unless it is relevant to include (such as the modern source for ROTC is Norwich or that some of Texas A&M's traditions/language is rooted in West Point history/linguistics), we really don't need the "My school is better than your school!" comparisons. Buffs ( talk) 20:38, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
You all enjoy the competition, but count me out... Disagree with Buffs comments... and for the record, I do not care about Texas A&M--couldn't care less, because this article is about VMI. The fact that VMI is an all-military corps of 1300 cadets is a significant difference from all other SMCs--if anyone thinks pointing out this fact is denigrating their schools, then THAT is THEIR burden and THEIR bias entering into the equation. You mentioned honor codes, etc.--VMI is the only school which conducts a "drum-out" ceremony for cadets who violate the code. This is also a noteworthy fact which was removed. I can tell you with absolute certainty, both as someone who is very familiar with and has been to the other SMCs and as someone who taught at a US Service Academy, VMI's honor code is unlike any other school out there... period. This fact was mentioned, but was removed perhaps because it hurt feelings or made someone's school feel denigrated. Why? Is the uniqueness of this fact not worth mentioning even when all the other SMCs have admitted they do not still utilize or adhere to a "single-sanction" honor code, but VMI still does and will continue to do so? Bottom line for this article: Stating "unlike any of the other SMCs and in keeping with its founding principles" illustrates a factually supported facet of this Institution which is noteworthy in nature. The fact that VMI is different from all other SMCs in this capacity is not "fluff" and is relevant to the article, whether it makes aggies or others feel denigrated or not... Hawaiia ( talk) 23:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC) For the record, the article in its present form is suitable to me. The Rhodes Scholar section has been "diluted" enough not to offend and the intro looks acceptable. Hawaiia ( talk) 23:51, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
The answer to these questions is simple: WP policy supports including well-known, substantiated and simple facts: Please look again at the smcs and you will agree: 1. "Unlike any of the other smcs and in keeping with its founding principles" is a "no-brainer": - Are any other smcs all-military? NO, they all offer "other" programs for civilians, community college students, and/or night studies, graduate programs, etc.--check websites, wikipedia articles, US News, etc. - What was the original mission of VMI (and most of the other smcs)? Answer: To produce educated undergraduates of a military institute--a mission which has not changed at VMI to include night students, graduate students, or distance learning programs--like the other smcs. Bottom Line: these are no brainer statements and I will ensure they remain. - In regards to the rhodes scholars: do what you will, but you both know citadel and N.GA have not graduated any--if they had, they would be talking about it--The sources have been provided on the other schools and VMI, yet you still refuse to accept, and at this point I do not care. Look, Buffs and Ocalafla, you both are making this far more complicated than necessary. You know full well that VMI is the only all-cadet smc still in accordance with it's mission upon founding--VMI is far different from the others, yet you both want to continue this song and dance. The facts are both substantiated and noteworthy--therefore they require inclusion per WP policy. Again, I will ensure they remain in the intro. Hawaiia ( talk) 20:26, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Hawaiia ( talk) 01:39, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
It reads like a recruiting pamphlet, not what WP:LEAD dictates it should. I'm not saying the given information there shouldn't be included in the article, but the lead is supposed to be a summary of the article. As such, everything in the lead should be discussed more in-depth in the article. As it stands now, almost all of it is information that is NOT discussed in the rest of the article. Responses requested. Buffs ( talk) 15:23, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Probably should have list of commandants someplace. If here, list should be "hidden." Student7 ( talk) 00:15, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
The 2006 Laws document appears to be lost and not archived. However, a quick look at the current (?) document suggests that it's a valid replacement and still consistent with the text. It's here: http://www.kappaalphaorder.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2013-Working-Edition-Kappa-Alpha-Laws-FULL-PAGE-LAWS-74th-Convention-REGS-Dec.-16-2013.pdf
I've archived it here: https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.kappaalphaorder.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2013-Working-Edition-Kappa-Alpha-Laws-FULL-PAGE-LAWS-74th-Convention-REGS-Dec.-16-2013.pdf
Having said that, I know almost nothing about frats, so I'm at risk to misinterpreting. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment? If no-one does, I'll make the change in a few days. -- Otus scops ( talk) 21:28, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
i want to apply what are process and how much is the tuition fee — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.190.3.157 ( talk) 15:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Re: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] (list incomplete)
I have been watching this silly ping pong game for too long, enough is enough. At least three editors, Bob80q, 69.1.22.120, and 155.225.144.115, are engaged in a slow-burn edit war, a violation of Wikipedia policy, with no end in sight. WP:EW:
An editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring regardless of whether their edits were justifiable: "but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring" is no defense.
Any interested editors are invited to present their case here, using nothing but reliable published sources. Please refrain from assertions of personal knowledge about this, as Wikipedia is not about personal knowledge.
As far as I can tell, the source currently given does not support the statement; unless a better one can be found and cited, or unless someone can show where that source directly supports the statement with no WP:SYNTH required, the statement should be removed. It matters not what is true, only what is verifiable. Even if the source supported the statement, I don't think it would be acceptable to use VMI's own website as a source for such a claim-to-fame about itself. Either way, the current sourcing is inadequate.
Comments like the edit summary "Please note: As a wiki troll, Bob80 has a history of under-editing the VMI site--please check history and note edits)" violate Wikipedia:Assume good faith, a widely accepted behavioral guideline, and border on violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks, another policy. Comments like "your gutless unsigned insults show what a classless frat boy you are" will result in a trip to WP:ANI and possible sanction; the editor who wrote that should consider this prior warning.
If no consensus on this question can be reached locally, I will start a request for comment about it. But kindly cease the edit warring now. Thank you. ― Mandruss ☎ 17:25, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
The entire student body? Were there no VMI cadets who were loyal to the Union, as obviously there were graduates who were loyal? -- Orange Mike | Talk 19:37, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
@ Warhog123: Re your revert, multiple points.
This is specifically allowed per MOS:MILRANKS and not considered 'honorific', this was discussed on other pages and also on the Wikimedia commons page. Editors obviously need to be more familiar with the rules. Bob80q ( talk) 00:24, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The article has only a single picture of cadets (a small one at that). Recommend adding some more (surely there are some cadets following this page... Buffs ( talk) 22:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
The "mine's more austere than yours" mantra is uncited/unproven thereby failing WP:SOURCE. Additionally, per WP:LEDE It would need to be in the body of the article; it isn't. If you want to add it in, please cite your sources and expand upon it in the body of the article. If you believe my assessment to be incorrect, please explain why. Buffs ( talk) 21:16, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
We don't need to "send this up to an admin". We should be able to discuss this here. Address the issues brought up, don't just add it back. I've also removed your revision "...making it the largest non-service academy military commissioning source in the United States. In fact, VMI holds the distinction amongst all other Senior Military Colleges of having the highest percentage of it's graduates commission in the military." The only thing the source shows is how many graduates and what percentage they had. It doesn't mention the other SMCs nor does it say whether the percentage is higher or lower. Lastly, the source is the subject of the article. While it's certainly a respectable institution, please use 3rd party sources where possible. Short version, your revisions a) lack a source that backs up the claims and/or b) fails WP:LEDE. Feel free to add it back with a source for your claim AND make sure that the Lede is expanded upon in the body of the article. Buffs ( talk) 15:27, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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Buffs ( talk) 14:39, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
...sure, but what is wrong with the "West Point of the South" thing? Drmies ( talk) 01:59, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
someone needs to update the article concerning these recent findings: https://schev.edu/docs/default-source/documents/vmi-special-investigation-team-final-reporta8b3c750bece61aeb256ff000079de01.pdf [1] (June 2021) 161.69.112.11 ( talk) 17:58, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
References
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