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Shellypls ( talk) 01:25, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
The title of this article, "Violent behavior in autistic people" seems not to match the content. The article describes violence within the scope of autistic people's lives, both received and expressed, but the title does not reflect that, and suggests the topic may be only about violence expressed by autistic people. Some suggestions:
— siro χ o 08:45, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi @ Shellypls:, aside from the title I struggle to understand the purpose and structure of the article. It seems that the article covers everything that is loosely related to "violence" and "autism". From my point of view, the article attempts to combine at least four distinct topics (public perception of autism, autistic criminals and whether autistic people are more likely to commit violent crimes, non-criminal violent behavior of autistic people such as self-harm or during meltdowns, and violence against autistic people) that don't have much in common. In my opinion, this is also evident from the "Consequences" section, which fails to draw a coherent conclusion from the preceding sections - arguably, because no such coherent conclusion exists in the first place.
Could you elaborate why you chose to create an article on this topic and combine these vastly different aspects into one Wikipedia article? How do you feel about separating the different parts of your article?-- TempusTacet ( talk) 20:22, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Shellypls and @ 7804j, as I would like to move forward here, would you please answer the remaining questions? I see that you're active working on other articles.-- TempusTacet ( talk) 08:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
A lot of the phrasing in this article is based around the idea of autistic people having less empathy. However, the Double empathy problem article would suggest this not to be the case, and it might be worth seeking out other sources on this that don't assume the "weak theory of mind/empathy" theories of autism a-priori.
This article also mixes up violence against autistic people with the perception of autistic people committing violence/being violent. Naturally, my comment applies primarily to the second one, even if the first component is related to the second component.
Full disclaimer, I'm autistic :)
31.112.40.23 ( talk) 10:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
There are two different McGuire sources; sorting them might require going back to the French article from whence this mess came. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 10:06, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
At present, this article uses both people-first (i.e., people with autism) and identity-first (i.e., autistic people) language. For consistency, it's best to choose one or the other.
According to various style guides, people-first language is appropriate for referring to people with disabilities, though I'm having trouble finding Wikipedia's style guide on this topic at the moment. However, various communities have indicated they prefer identity-first language, including the autistic community ( Taboas et al., 2022; Monk et al. 2022), though this may vary by culture ( Buijsman et al., 2022).
Whatever is selected, it should be consistent throughout the article. Significa liberdade ( talk) 15:01, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Identity first is preferred in the Autistic community. Tydoni ( talk) 21:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Significa liberdade in
this edit you have removed the attribution of a direct quote. (According to Anne-Sophie Ferry, "autism is not characterized by violence or outbursts of anger",
) We need to either attribute the quote, or rephrase the entire thing, and since I don't have access to the source, I don't know how to rephrase it better ... so for now, it's an opinion that should be attributed.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk)
15:37, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Can we please remove the picture of the minor having a meltdown? Autistic people consider it rude to post pictures or videos of people in meltdown. Meltdown pictures/videos are usually not taken with the consent of the subject. Meltdowns are something many Autistic people find humiliating. Parents that want to cure Autism and organizations like Autism Speaks have a history of posting meltdown pictures/videos to shame the subject or demonize Autistic people in general. As an Autistic person I ask Wikipedia to please refrain from showing pictures of distressed Autistic people without proof that the subject consented to having that photo used in that manner. The fact that picture is that of a minor makes the posting of this picture even more inappropriate in my opinion. Tydoni ( talk) 21:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I have heard that Autistic people that are unable to speak prefer non-vocal to non-verbal. IIRC the issue was that using non-verbal perpetrated the myth that non-speaking Autistic people have intellectual disabilities and increased the discrimination non-speaking Autistic people face. As I am usually able to speak, I cannot say one way or the other which term is appropriate. Could a non-speaking Autistic person weigh in on this? Tydoni ( talk) 21:59, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Could we please change the title of this section to Distress Mischaracterized as Violence? Nothing about this section reference’s actual violence. This section appears to be about behaviour of people in distress being mistaken for violence. This includes the institutionalized Autistic people spitting or biting. In my understanding most, if not all, of the spitting and biting in that situation is people trying to communicate they are in distress or communicate that they want you to ‘go away’ the only way they know how. We do not call someone who needs to be rescued by a lifeguard violent if they say accidentally slap the lifeguard rescuing them while they are in a panic and flailing around trying to not drown. Most Autistic people in distress (especially if it’s sensory overload) are the same state of mind as someone that feels their life is in danger (flight/fight/freeze/fawn mode). This article doesn’t do a good job of differentiating distress behaviour and mischievous/malicious behaviour committed by people who cannot be held criminally responsible. Distress Behaviour and behaviour with a mischievous/malicious motive are two very different issues that require two very different solutions. We also need to discuss how Allistic people can’t always tell the difference between distress behaviour and malicious behaviour and how that causes major problems for Autistic people. Tydoni ( talk) 22:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
There are lots of reports of violence against autistic children in school I think this should be on the article somewhere. here are some links to reports of this.
https://www.aclu.org/news/disability-rights/mom-fears-her-autistic-son-being-abused
https://www.wbaltv.com/article/lawsuit-alleges-abuse-of-student-with-autism-baltimore/41138598# Snowman680 ( talk) 15:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 30 July 2023. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically
review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Violence and autism.
|
![]() | Other talk page banners | |||||||||||
|
Shellypls ( talk) 01:25, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
The title of this article, "Violent behavior in autistic people" seems not to match the content. The article describes violence within the scope of autistic people's lives, both received and expressed, but the title does not reflect that, and suggests the topic may be only about violence expressed by autistic people. Some suggestions:
— siro χ o 08:45, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi @ Shellypls:, aside from the title I struggle to understand the purpose and structure of the article. It seems that the article covers everything that is loosely related to "violence" and "autism". From my point of view, the article attempts to combine at least four distinct topics (public perception of autism, autistic criminals and whether autistic people are more likely to commit violent crimes, non-criminal violent behavior of autistic people such as self-harm or during meltdowns, and violence against autistic people) that don't have much in common. In my opinion, this is also evident from the "Consequences" section, which fails to draw a coherent conclusion from the preceding sections - arguably, because no such coherent conclusion exists in the first place.
Could you elaborate why you chose to create an article on this topic and combine these vastly different aspects into one Wikipedia article? How do you feel about separating the different parts of your article?-- TempusTacet ( talk) 20:22, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Shellypls and @ 7804j, as I would like to move forward here, would you please answer the remaining questions? I see that you're active working on other articles.-- TempusTacet ( talk) 08:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
A lot of the phrasing in this article is based around the idea of autistic people having less empathy. However, the Double empathy problem article would suggest this not to be the case, and it might be worth seeking out other sources on this that don't assume the "weak theory of mind/empathy" theories of autism a-priori.
This article also mixes up violence against autistic people with the perception of autistic people committing violence/being violent. Naturally, my comment applies primarily to the second one, even if the first component is related to the second component.
Full disclaimer, I'm autistic :)
31.112.40.23 ( talk) 10:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
There are two different McGuire sources; sorting them might require going back to the French article from whence this mess came. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 10:06, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
At present, this article uses both people-first (i.e., people with autism) and identity-first (i.e., autistic people) language. For consistency, it's best to choose one or the other.
According to various style guides, people-first language is appropriate for referring to people with disabilities, though I'm having trouble finding Wikipedia's style guide on this topic at the moment. However, various communities have indicated they prefer identity-first language, including the autistic community ( Taboas et al., 2022; Monk et al. 2022), though this may vary by culture ( Buijsman et al., 2022).
Whatever is selected, it should be consistent throughout the article. Significa liberdade ( talk) 15:01, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Identity first is preferred in the Autistic community. Tydoni ( talk) 21:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Significa liberdade in
this edit you have removed the attribution of a direct quote. (According to Anne-Sophie Ferry, "autism is not characterized by violence or outbursts of anger",
) We need to either attribute the quote, or rephrase the entire thing, and since I don't have access to the source, I don't know how to rephrase it better ... so for now, it's an opinion that should be attributed.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk)
15:37, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Can we please remove the picture of the minor having a meltdown? Autistic people consider it rude to post pictures or videos of people in meltdown. Meltdown pictures/videos are usually not taken with the consent of the subject. Meltdowns are something many Autistic people find humiliating. Parents that want to cure Autism and organizations like Autism Speaks have a history of posting meltdown pictures/videos to shame the subject or demonize Autistic people in general. As an Autistic person I ask Wikipedia to please refrain from showing pictures of distressed Autistic people without proof that the subject consented to having that photo used in that manner. The fact that picture is that of a minor makes the posting of this picture even more inappropriate in my opinion. Tydoni ( talk) 21:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I have heard that Autistic people that are unable to speak prefer non-vocal to non-verbal. IIRC the issue was that using non-verbal perpetrated the myth that non-speaking Autistic people have intellectual disabilities and increased the discrimination non-speaking Autistic people face. As I am usually able to speak, I cannot say one way or the other which term is appropriate. Could a non-speaking Autistic person weigh in on this? Tydoni ( talk) 21:59, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Could we please change the title of this section to Distress Mischaracterized as Violence? Nothing about this section reference’s actual violence. This section appears to be about behaviour of people in distress being mistaken for violence. This includes the institutionalized Autistic people spitting or biting. In my understanding most, if not all, of the spitting and biting in that situation is people trying to communicate they are in distress or communicate that they want you to ‘go away’ the only way they know how. We do not call someone who needs to be rescued by a lifeguard violent if they say accidentally slap the lifeguard rescuing them while they are in a panic and flailing around trying to not drown. Most Autistic people in distress (especially if it’s sensory overload) are the same state of mind as someone that feels their life is in danger (flight/fight/freeze/fawn mode). This article doesn’t do a good job of differentiating distress behaviour and mischievous/malicious behaviour committed by people who cannot be held criminally responsible. Distress Behaviour and behaviour with a mischievous/malicious motive are two very different issues that require two very different solutions. We also need to discuss how Allistic people can’t always tell the difference between distress behaviour and malicious behaviour and how that causes major problems for Autistic people. Tydoni ( talk) 22:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
There are lots of reports of violence against autistic children in school I think this should be on the article somewhere. here are some links to reports of this.
https://www.aclu.org/news/disability-rights/mom-fears-her-autistic-son-being-abused
https://www.wbaltv.com/article/lawsuit-alleges-abuse-of-student-with-autism-baltimore/41138598# Snowman680 ( talk) 15:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC)