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I propose that this article be renamed to Vertical tail. All the books I have at hand (refs 1 & 3-5 in article) specifically refer to the vertical stabilizer (or fin) as being the fixed part of the vertical tail, with the moveable part being the rudder. I know this terminology is a little confusing —the rudder also contributes to stability, and the stabilizer also contributes to control— but this seems to be well-established terminology. I do not see why or how the vertical stabilizer should be treated independently from the vertical tail itself. I look forward to other editors’ input. Ariadacapo ( talk) 08:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
SUPPORT: I agree with Ariadacapo. In "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" by H.H.Hurt Jr (1959), p.285 (Chapter 4, STABILITY AND CONTROL, Directional Stability) the complete vertical surface is called the "vertical tail". The moving part of the vertical tail (under the control of the pilot) is called the "rudder". The expression "vertical stabilizer" appears not to be used. Dolphin ( t) 13:53, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Oppose: This article is about the fixed part, so it is correctly named.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hohum ( talk • contribs)
Oppose: - I agree with @ Hohum:, this article is about the fixed vertical surface, the vertical stabilizer, or fin, and not the movable part, the rudder, which is covered at Rudder#Aircraft rudders. The "vertical tail" includes both the fixed and movable parts and would change the scope of this article. I think if you want to move it to that title, than it has to be re-written to include the fin and rudder and then to remove the rudder from Rudder#Aircraft rudders. - Ahunt ( talk) 18:38, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Oppose - Most contemporary sources I've seen call the fixed part a "vertical stabilizer". I might have supported if the article covered both the fixed part and rudder. - ZLEA T\ C 22:41, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Oppose per Hohum and others. 60-to-90+-year-old references shouldn't be used to determine the appropriate modern name of an article. oknazevad ( talk) 00:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
References
Support. An aircraft fin and rudder operate interactively to provide their various functions and are occasionally combined as an all-flying surface. Any discussion of their functions inevitably covers both surfaces. Rudder (aeronautics) redirects to a section in an article which is primarily about maritime rudders, which function only for directional control; it makes far more sense for that section to be moved/merged here and the article renamed accordingly. (Of course this article is currently about the whole vertical tail, only the title is confined to just the fixed part, that is fundamentally why this proposal is being made. Yet all the Oppose votes to date are based on the title alone, which I find rather bizarre - did none of you actually read the rationale or the article before voting? I'd suggest this discussion be canned, and a new one started with a more explicit discussion title and rationale, to acknowledge the inclusion of the moving surfaces and rename the article accordingly) — Cheers, Steelpillow ( Talk) 08:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC) [With additions 03:37, 25 September 2021 (UTC)]
Ariadacapo’s proposal has received Supports from 3 Users: Dolphin51, Steelpillow and BilCat. Let’s count this as 4 voices in favour of changing the title of the article. The proposal has received Opposes from 4 Users: Hohum, AHunt, ZLEA and oknazevad. Let’s count this as 4 voices opposed to the proposed change. GraemeLeggett made a comment but did not state support or opposition.
I have made a rough count of the words written in favour of, and opposed to, the proposal. The 4 voices in favour of the proposal account for about 1,109 words. The 4 voices opposed to the proposal account for about 406 words. (I have not counted the words by GraemeLeggett or the words used in signature blocks.) My conclusion from these numbers is that the 4 Users in favour of the proposal have attempted more comprehensive statements of their respective positions, and have argued their cases with greater determination, than the 4 Users opposed to the proposal.
There has been no addition to the discussion for almost 48 hours so perhaps we have almost reached a logical end-point. The most recent events of relevance appear to be that Hohum wrote “the name and scope is "vertical stabilizer", which there is plenty of sources to provide content from.” Ariadacapo replied, writing “where are the sources you are referring to above? There are none in the article.”
In view of all the above, I believe we have reached a point where we can thank Ariadacapo for putting this proposal before us and asking for our comments; and invite him to go ahead and change the title of the article as suggested in his proposal. Dolphin ( t) 13:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Wrapping up this discussion, I summarize it as no consensus to rename the current article. Accordingly, in the coming days, I will move the section "Function" and other bits to a new article titled "Vertical tail". Thank you all for your participation. -- Ariadacapo ( talk) 13:50, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Steelpillow said: "...and just keep the fin bits here."
Indeed, as the article is about the fin, it should be entitled fin - aeroplane I had been referring to it as the 'tail fin' but that is incorrect, it is simply the 'fin'.
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There are valid concerns about the scope of this and related articles, as well as about British/American terminology in the field, but this is not something that can be rectified by a simple page move. No such user ( talk) 14:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Vertical stabilizer →
Vertical tail – The subject of this article's present content is principally the whole vertical tail, which includes not only the stabilizer but also the rudder and any trim tabs. The straw poll and discussion immediately preceding this RfM highlight this, and also cite RS to the effect that discussions in textbooks invariably focus on the whole assembly, in just this way. Our Title policy at
WP:CRITERIA requires that The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects.
The easiest and best way to achieve this is to move the article as proposed. An alternative solution, to cut the material on the tail in general and paste it into a new article, would lose that material's edit history. Since it comprises the vast majority of this article, and would leave only a small and unsourced stub behind, leaving the edit history too would be quite the wrong solution. Instead, this article should simply be renamed to reflect its actual content. Whether or not a short article focusing exclusively on the vertical stabilizer should be recreated, will then be subject to the usual policies and guidelines. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
16:59, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
the hinged part of the vertical stabilizer is called the rudder. - Nick Thorne talk 00:09, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
Why does this link to https://es.wikipedia.org/?title=Superficies_estabilizadoras&redirect=no instead of https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estabilizador_vertical ? It works one way and not the other. What's happening? this is extremely frustrating. Santiago Arderíus ( talk) 18:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
A few aircraft, like the MQ-1 Predator, have their stabilizers below the fuselage instead of above it, would be great if we could get a mention of that, as well as potential advantages and disadvantages of that configuration? There's a brief mention of it on the V-tail page, but it doesn't really go into the why's. Fisk0 ( talk) 19:16, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
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I propose that this article be renamed to Vertical tail. All the books I have at hand (refs 1 & 3-5 in article) specifically refer to the vertical stabilizer (or fin) as being the fixed part of the vertical tail, with the moveable part being the rudder. I know this terminology is a little confusing —the rudder also contributes to stability, and the stabilizer also contributes to control— but this seems to be well-established terminology. I do not see why or how the vertical stabilizer should be treated independently from the vertical tail itself. I look forward to other editors’ input. Ariadacapo ( talk) 08:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
SUPPORT: I agree with Ariadacapo. In "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" by H.H.Hurt Jr (1959), p.285 (Chapter 4, STABILITY AND CONTROL, Directional Stability) the complete vertical surface is called the "vertical tail". The moving part of the vertical tail (under the control of the pilot) is called the "rudder". The expression "vertical stabilizer" appears not to be used. Dolphin ( t) 13:53, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Oppose: This article is about the fixed part, so it is correctly named.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hohum ( talk • contribs)
Oppose: - I agree with @ Hohum:, this article is about the fixed vertical surface, the vertical stabilizer, or fin, and not the movable part, the rudder, which is covered at Rudder#Aircraft rudders. The "vertical tail" includes both the fixed and movable parts and would change the scope of this article. I think if you want to move it to that title, than it has to be re-written to include the fin and rudder and then to remove the rudder from Rudder#Aircraft rudders. - Ahunt ( talk) 18:38, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Oppose - Most contemporary sources I've seen call the fixed part a "vertical stabilizer". I might have supported if the article covered both the fixed part and rudder. - ZLEA T\ C 22:41, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Oppose per Hohum and others. 60-to-90+-year-old references shouldn't be used to determine the appropriate modern name of an article. oknazevad ( talk) 00:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
References
Support. An aircraft fin and rudder operate interactively to provide their various functions and are occasionally combined as an all-flying surface. Any discussion of their functions inevitably covers both surfaces. Rudder (aeronautics) redirects to a section in an article which is primarily about maritime rudders, which function only for directional control; it makes far more sense for that section to be moved/merged here and the article renamed accordingly. (Of course this article is currently about the whole vertical tail, only the title is confined to just the fixed part, that is fundamentally why this proposal is being made. Yet all the Oppose votes to date are based on the title alone, which I find rather bizarre - did none of you actually read the rationale or the article before voting? I'd suggest this discussion be canned, and a new one started with a more explicit discussion title and rationale, to acknowledge the inclusion of the moving surfaces and rename the article accordingly) — Cheers, Steelpillow ( Talk) 08:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC) [With additions 03:37, 25 September 2021 (UTC)]
Ariadacapo’s proposal has received Supports from 3 Users: Dolphin51, Steelpillow and BilCat. Let’s count this as 4 voices in favour of changing the title of the article. The proposal has received Opposes from 4 Users: Hohum, AHunt, ZLEA and oknazevad. Let’s count this as 4 voices opposed to the proposed change. GraemeLeggett made a comment but did not state support or opposition.
I have made a rough count of the words written in favour of, and opposed to, the proposal. The 4 voices in favour of the proposal account for about 1,109 words. The 4 voices opposed to the proposal account for about 406 words. (I have not counted the words by GraemeLeggett or the words used in signature blocks.) My conclusion from these numbers is that the 4 Users in favour of the proposal have attempted more comprehensive statements of their respective positions, and have argued their cases with greater determination, than the 4 Users opposed to the proposal.
There has been no addition to the discussion for almost 48 hours so perhaps we have almost reached a logical end-point. The most recent events of relevance appear to be that Hohum wrote “the name and scope is "vertical stabilizer", which there is plenty of sources to provide content from.” Ariadacapo replied, writing “where are the sources you are referring to above? There are none in the article.”
In view of all the above, I believe we have reached a point where we can thank Ariadacapo for putting this proposal before us and asking for our comments; and invite him to go ahead and change the title of the article as suggested in his proposal. Dolphin ( t) 13:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Wrapping up this discussion, I summarize it as no consensus to rename the current article. Accordingly, in the coming days, I will move the section "Function" and other bits to a new article titled "Vertical tail". Thank you all for your participation. -- Ariadacapo ( talk) 13:50, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Steelpillow said: "...and just keep the fin bits here."
Indeed, as the article is about the fin, it should be entitled fin - aeroplane I had been referring to it as the 'tail fin' but that is incorrect, it is simply the 'fin'.
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There are valid concerns about the scope of this and related articles, as well as about British/American terminology in the field, but this is not something that can be rectified by a simple page move. No such user ( talk) 14:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Vertical stabilizer →
Vertical tail – The subject of this article's present content is principally the whole vertical tail, which includes not only the stabilizer but also the rudder and any trim tabs. The straw poll and discussion immediately preceding this RfM highlight this, and also cite RS to the effect that discussions in textbooks invariably focus on the whole assembly, in just this way. Our Title policy at
WP:CRITERIA requires that The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects.
The easiest and best way to achieve this is to move the article as proposed. An alternative solution, to cut the material on the tail in general and paste it into a new article, would lose that material's edit history. Since it comprises the vast majority of this article, and would leave only a small and unsourced stub behind, leaving the edit history too would be quite the wrong solution. Instead, this article should simply be renamed to reflect its actual content. Whether or not a short article focusing exclusively on the vertical stabilizer should be recreated, will then be subject to the usual policies and guidelines. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
16:59, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
the hinged part of the vertical stabilizer is called the rudder. - Nick Thorne talk 00:09, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
Why does this link to https://es.wikipedia.org/?title=Superficies_estabilizadoras&redirect=no instead of https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estabilizador_vertical ? It works one way and not the other. What's happening? this is extremely frustrating. Santiago Arderíus ( talk) 18:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
A few aircraft, like the MQ-1 Predator, have their stabilizers below the fuselage instead of above it, would be great if we could get a mention of that, as well as potential advantages and disadvantages of that configuration? There's a brief mention of it on the V-tail page, but it doesn't really go into the why's. Fisk0 ( talk) 19:16, 16 August 2023 (UTC)