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1. Numbers. a. Population. The article speaks of a "mass exodus of civilian population (about 50,000 people) from Khotin to Soviet Ukraine". Now, Khotyn has never been a large city. In the days of the uprising, its population was of about 24,000. See this link http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/K/H/Khotyn.htm where one may also learn that "Since most of the town's inhabitants were Jewish or Russian, Ukrainian cultural life was insignificant until the early 20th century". It is obvious there were never 50,000 people in Khotyn, let alone 50,000 Ukrainians, as one is led to believe by the article. Also, why would civilians flee to Soviet Ukraine, since the most of the "guerilla fighters" do not appear to have been local people, but "armed bands from Podolia", although "reinforced by the local Ukrainian peasants".
b. 20,000 guerilla fighters. From the only available source that is listed below, the uprising seems to be one of several rather minor skirmishes, which did not require the presence of "the major forces of the Romanian army" (by the way, this does not sound like proper English; perhaps you mean something like "major Romanian forces", or "important forces of the Romanian army". Then why would about 4,000 of the guerilla fighters ("the fifth part") defect to Ukraine? Maybe they "escaped" to Ukraine. "Defect" means to "abandon one's cause or party or country usually to join another". Either these people were not locals and did not defect anything (communism or Ukraine), or they were locals, and then "to defect" would be too strong a word (it is used especially in cases when someone "defects" from a country that does not respect human rights - a common use is for Soviet citizens who defected to the West, not vice versa).
2. Reign of terror. The 11,000 executions are not documented in the external link listed here. Are they documented in the book mentioned here, which was published by communists? How would that be a reliable source. Also, the article speaks of "thousands more ... deported to katorga and labour camps". As for katorga, the wiki link shows it's strictly a Russian term, so it has nothing to do with Romania. Now, in regard with "labour camps", I am pretty sure there were NO labour camps in Romania prior to the installment of communism. I don't have any kind of evidence for that, because one cannot have evidence for something that does not exist. But let me put it this way: labour camps are used by totalitarian regimes (1) to punish opponents and (2) for large state-handled economic projects. In 1919, Romania may not have been heaven, but it was not a totalitarian state, and had no such projects. The state had no projects, since it had no property. Everything was owned by the damn capitalists. The end of the article shows that these damn capitalists were really the bad guys anyway, for the region was finally "liberated" by the Soviet army. Quatrocentu 09:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The article is total propaganda. Ukes stole romanian land and now are trying to cover it up with lies.
Since no one responded to these problems, I consider that the Soviet source is unreliable and as such I'm removing affirmations based on it. bogdan | Talk 17:57, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I see there is a revert war raging on here. What is it with this article that can't be solved at the talk page? Halibu tt 12:13, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Found another reference. I'll see what it writes next week, when I'll get to the library. bogdan | Talk 10:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC) Stănescu, M. C. Hotin - ianuarie 1919. Răscoală sau agresiune? (Hotin, 1919. Révolte ou agression?). Magazin Istoric, 1995, 29, nr. 7, p.22-26.
On top of all of that mentioned above, which I honestly think is just the result of the creative mind of some old
Bolshevik, I think that the last phrase "returned to the Soviet Union" is wrong since the territory never before belonged to the
USSR.
Constantzeanu
17:21, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Ghirlandajo, until the issues in the inaccuracies section added by User:Quatrocentu are not solved, one way or the other (prove that they're not inaccuracies or remove from the article), I'll keep the dispute tag. bogdan 09:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Just came across these sentences"
"Bolshevik agitators from the Ukrainian SSR tried to use manifestos to incite a revolt"
"This largely unsuccessful attempt was followed in January 1919 by the insurrection of armed bands from Podolia, reinforced by the local Ukrainian peasants."
And [1] "організований виступ населення Хотинського пов. проти рум. окупації. Керівником X. п. була «Хотинська Директорія», зформована з 5 чл. (гол. М. Лискун, секретар Л. Токан); вона співпрацювала з Директорією УНР, представник якої І. Маєвський допомагав повстанцям зброєю." which means: UofK - organized revolt by Khotyn region agains Rom. occupation. The leader of UofK was "Directory of Khotyn", that was formed from 5 people (chief M. Lyskun secretary L. Tokan); it collaborated with the Directory of UPR, who's representative I. Mayevski was providing rebellion with weapons.
You may like to research more on this topic and explain "armed bands".-- Bryndza 16:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I've protected this. There seems to be a large-scale edit war going on. Please discuss...
Since the article is based solely on the sources from one side of the conflict, there is a natural doubt raised regarding the accuracy of the descripotion. However if the Romanian side will not provide its version in near future, the tag will be removed. `' mikka (t) 20:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
For future tagging, please keep in mind that you cannot tag an article just because you don't like its content, even you have serious reasons to believe that something is wrong. YOu must present a solid evidence of the wrong. Otherwise what is the difference between you and next best troll who can run around and slap NPOV tags here and there at will and disrupt the whole wikipedia? Most of wikipedia articles are not perfect and formally you can place half a dozen tags on each of them, which would bring nothing but annoyance. `' mikka (t) 20:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we could used "Template:Unbalnced" then? But fine with me either way if we don't allow the tag to stick for weeks or months as the last time. I will try to find time to translate the information soon. -- Irpen 01:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think such move would change anything but would like to quickly inquire here first. Objections? -- Irpen 18:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What sources refer to the uprising as 'Khotin Massacre'? Google search gives 45 hits, all of which appear to be wiki and our mirrors/forks. This term is also not used in print. Same with 'Massacre of Khotin' ( [2])-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is by far the worst article I've ever read in Wikipedia. It is written such that it reflects only some inflamed Ukrainian nationalistic point of view. It also makes very little sense:
I do not doubt that there happened something then and I would like to know what. This article however is a joke. The fact that it stays in Wikipedia like this makes it a bad joke.
Best regards, C
"The region of Khotin was part of the principality of Moldavia for almost 500 years before it was occupied by the Russians in 1812". Yes, it is right, but before that, this region belonged to Halych-Volyn, Halych and Kiev principalities, being inhabited by Slavic people, ancestors of modern Ukrainians, and not by Romanians. The Moldavian population started to increase when Stephen the Great took this land from Poland. It means, that ancient Ukrainians were displaced by Moldavian rulers. This region´s history doesn´t start 500 years ago, but this is a thing that a lot of Romanian historians and authorities don´t want to see or directly deny it. This is extensible to all northern Bukovyna. For them, the history of the region starts in 1775, or, when is more convenient, during the principality of Moldavia. None of them says that this region belonged to Halych-Volyn and Kiev pricipalities before, predecessors of modern Ukrainian state. Nobody says that Khotyn fortress was built by Prince Vladimir Sviatoslavich, from Kiev, and archaeological researches show that this place was inhabited by Slavics, not by Romanians or even Moldovans. A lot of them when Ukrainian sources critizice Romanian authorities about their behaviour towards Ukrainian people, they call "propaganda", just to hide what they did and justify their territorial claims in Ukraine. They think that only they have the reason and the trouth, and never accept a critical point of view. Of course This is not extensible to all Romanian researchers, but that point of view is the predominant in mass media.
The article is based almost exclusively on ukrainian sources and is hence strongly biased. This is another point that needs improvement, possibly from Romanian editors. 85.233.19.97 ( talk) 19:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
We try to organize the rewrite. We will rewrite the article from scratch, as we believe that editing this version is pointless. We have access to both old and modern Romanian sources. We lookfor an Ukrainian (or someone who can provide ukrainian sources and can read Ukrainian) editor to help us with the new article. Pls. contact me on my talk page also if you have additional materials. Regards Octavian8 ( talk) 13:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
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![]() | A fact from Khotyn Uprising appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 27 April 2020 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
1. Numbers. a. Population. The article speaks of a "mass exodus of civilian population (about 50,000 people) from Khotin to Soviet Ukraine". Now, Khotyn has never been a large city. In the days of the uprising, its population was of about 24,000. See this link http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/K/H/Khotyn.htm where one may also learn that "Since most of the town's inhabitants were Jewish or Russian, Ukrainian cultural life was insignificant until the early 20th century". It is obvious there were never 50,000 people in Khotyn, let alone 50,000 Ukrainians, as one is led to believe by the article. Also, why would civilians flee to Soviet Ukraine, since the most of the "guerilla fighters" do not appear to have been local people, but "armed bands from Podolia", although "reinforced by the local Ukrainian peasants".
b. 20,000 guerilla fighters. From the only available source that is listed below, the uprising seems to be one of several rather minor skirmishes, which did not require the presence of "the major forces of the Romanian army" (by the way, this does not sound like proper English; perhaps you mean something like "major Romanian forces", or "important forces of the Romanian army". Then why would about 4,000 of the guerilla fighters ("the fifth part") defect to Ukraine? Maybe they "escaped" to Ukraine. "Defect" means to "abandon one's cause or party or country usually to join another". Either these people were not locals and did not defect anything (communism or Ukraine), or they were locals, and then "to defect" would be too strong a word (it is used especially in cases when someone "defects" from a country that does not respect human rights - a common use is for Soviet citizens who defected to the West, not vice versa).
2. Reign of terror. The 11,000 executions are not documented in the external link listed here. Are they documented in the book mentioned here, which was published by communists? How would that be a reliable source. Also, the article speaks of "thousands more ... deported to katorga and labour camps". As for katorga, the wiki link shows it's strictly a Russian term, so it has nothing to do with Romania. Now, in regard with "labour camps", I am pretty sure there were NO labour camps in Romania prior to the installment of communism. I don't have any kind of evidence for that, because one cannot have evidence for something that does not exist. But let me put it this way: labour camps are used by totalitarian regimes (1) to punish opponents and (2) for large state-handled economic projects. In 1919, Romania may not have been heaven, but it was not a totalitarian state, and had no such projects. The state had no projects, since it had no property. Everything was owned by the damn capitalists. The end of the article shows that these damn capitalists were really the bad guys anyway, for the region was finally "liberated" by the Soviet army. Quatrocentu 09:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The article is total propaganda. Ukes stole romanian land and now are trying to cover it up with lies.
Since no one responded to these problems, I consider that the Soviet source is unreliable and as such I'm removing affirmations based on it. bogdan | Talk 17:57, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I see there is a revert war raging on here. What is it with this article that can't be solved at the talk page? Halibu tt 12:13, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Found another reference. I'll see what it writes next week, when I'll get to the library. bogdan | Talk 10:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC) Stănescu, M. C. Hotin - ianuarie 1919. Răscoală sau agresiune? (Hotin, 1919. Révolte ou agression?). Magazin Istoric, 1995, 29, nr. 7, p.22-26.
On top of all of that mentioned above, which I honestly think is just the result of the creative mind of some old
Bolshevik, I think that the last phrase "returned to the Soviet Union" is wrong since the territory never before belonged to the
USSR.
Constantzeanu
17:21, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Ghirlandajo, until the issues in the inaccuracies section added by User:Quatrocentu are not solved, one way or the other (prove that they're not inaccuracies or remove from the article), I'll keep the dispute tag. bogdan 09:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Just came across these sentences"
"Bolshevik agitators from the Ukrainian SSR tried to use manifestos to incite a revolt"
"This largely unsuccessful attempt was followed in January 1919 by the insurrection of armed bands from Podolia, reinforced by the local Ukrainian peasants."
And [1] "організований виступ населення Хотинського пов. проти рум. окупації. Керівником X. п. була «Хотинська Директорія», зформована з 5 чл. (гол. М. Лискун, секретар Л. Токан); вона співпрацювала з Директорією УНР, представник якої І. Маєвський допомагав повстанцям зброєю." which means: UofK - organized revolt by Khotyn region agains Rom. occupation. The leader of UofK was "Directory of Khotyn", that was formed from 5 people (chief M. Lyskun secretary L. Tokan); it collaborated with the Directory of UPR, who's representative I. Mayevski was providing rebellion with weapons.
You may like to research more on this topic and explain "armed bands".-- Bryndza 16:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I've protected this. There seems to be a large-scale edit war going on. Please discuss...
Since the article is based solely on the sources from one side of the conflict, there is a natural doubt raised regarding the accuracy of the descripotion. However if the Romanian side will not provide its version in near future, the tag will be removed. `' mikka (t) 20:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
For future tagging, please keep in mind that you cannot tag an article just because you don't like its content, even you have serious reasons to believe that something is wrong. YOu must present a solid evidence of the wrong. Otherwise what is the difference between you and next best troll who can run around and slap NPOV tags here and there at will and disrupt the whole wikipedia? Most of wikipedia articles are not perfect and formally you can place half a dozen tags on each of them, which would bring nothing but annoyance. `' mikka (t) 20:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we could used "Template:Unbalnced" then? But fine with me either way if we don't allow the tag to stick for weeks or months as the last time. I will try to find time to translate the information soon. -- Irpen 01:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think such move would change anything but would like to quickly inquire here first. Objections? -- Irpen 18:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What sources refer to the uprising as 'Khotin Massacre'? Google search gives 45 hits, all of which appear to be wiki and our mirrors/forks. This term is also not used in print. Same with 'Massacre of Khotin' ( [2])-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is by far the worst article I've ever read in Wikipedia. It is written such that it reflects only some inflamed Ukrainian nationalistic point of view. It also makes very little sense:
I do not doubt that there happened something then and I would like to know what. This article however is a joke. The fact that it stays in Wikipedia like this makes it a bad joke.
Best regards, C
"The region of Khotin was part of the principality of Moldavia for almost 500 years before it was occupied by the Russians in 1812". Yes, it is right, but before that, this region belonged to Halych-Volyn, Halych and Kiev principalities, being inhabited by Slavic people, ancestors of modern Ukrainians, and not by Romanians. The Moldavian population started to increase when Stephen the Great took this land from Poland. It means, that ancient Ukrainians were displaced by Moldavian rulers. This region´s history doesn´t start 500 years ago, but this is a thing that a lot of Romanian historians and authorities don´t want to see or directly deny it. This is extensible to all northern Bukovyna. For them, the history of the region starts in 1775, or, when is more convenient, during the principality of Moldavia. None of them says that this region belonged to Halych-Volyn and Kiev pricipalities before, predecessors of modern Ukrainian state. Nobody says that Khotyn fortress was built by Prince Vladimir Sviatoslavich, from Kiev, and archaeological researches show that this place was inhabited by Slavics, not by Romanians or even Moldovans. A lot of them when Ukrainian sources critizice Romanian authorities about their behaviour towards Ukrainian people, they call "propaganda", just to hide what they did and justify their territorial claims in Ukraine. They think that only they have the reason and the trouth, and never accept a critical point of view. Of course This is not extensible to all Romanian researchers, but that point of view is the predominant in mass media.
The article is based almost exclusively on ukrainian sources and is hence strongly biased. This is another point that needs improvement, possibly from Romanian editors. 85.233.19.97 ( talk) 19:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
We try to organize the rewrite. We will rewrite the article from scratch, as we believe that editing this version is pointless. We have access to both old and modern Romanian sources. We lookfor an Ukrainian (or someone who can provide ukrainian sources and can read Ukrainian) editor to help us with the new article. Pls. contact me on my talk page also if you have additional materials. Regards Octavian8 ( talk) 13:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Khotin Uprising. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
The result was: promoted by
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
06:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
5x expanded by Dahn ( talk). Self-nominated at 08:52, 23 March 2020 (UTC).
General: Article is new enough and long enough |
---|
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
---|
|
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
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|
QPQ: Done. |