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An editor reverted to the lead to how it was before the lengthy DRN discussion and consensus. The change can be seen here. I have modified the lead to something closer to what was achieved at the DRN with this edit per WP:BRD, which had a consensus of a majority of editors who were involved at DRN. Although Consensus can change, there is no new consensus to support reversion to the lead sentences structure to as it was before the DRN discussion.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 00:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
the country itself can say what it claims, is why Congressional organic acts --- to "include" the territories --- are interpreted by three government agencies, State, GAO and Homeland for reference. These are supported by scholarly sources in direct quotes, not editor pov-pushing primary court citations unrelated to secondary sources. Likewise to avoid editor-driven synthesis from flawed tertiary digests --- which in this discussion have been shown to represent 1905 as 2005, misreport "affirmed" as "reversed", confuse mayors with governors, and omit territorial representation since 1985. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 00:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
WP:CONSENSUS does not say "count editors by who adds more sources" and I would note that I, indeed, did add NWT-related sources, as well as SCOTUS sources in the discussions - meaning your "count" is abysmally useless. We use "consensus of editors" and not "only count editors I want to count" and by any normal rational consideration of the policy as written, we have one - to include territories. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 13:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
9) The United States of America is a nation state governed by a federal constitutional republic, consisting of fifty states and a federal district as well as several territories. It is commonly called the United States (US, USA, U.S. or U.S.A.) and colloquially as America, The territories have differing degrees of autonomy.
Damn sure looks like 7 supports. Your mileage appears to vary greatly from what is in the DRN archives. Collect ( talk) 15:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the introduction sentence include the three sovereign nations in free association with the US? Or in later discussion. They are Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) 1982 for 15-years, Republic of Marshal Is. (RMI) 1983 for 15-years and Republic of Palau, approved by Congress in 1986, and endorsed by the UN later that year. The Republic of Palau opted for a longer 50-year Compact ratified in Palau in 1994.
Stanley O. Roth, Asst. Secy Dept. of State, House International Relations Committee testimony October 1998. From 1947 to 1978 apart of the UN Trust Territory of Pacific Islands , the people of the Northern Mariana Islands opted for an association making them U.S. citizens, then in “1986, the N. Mariana Is. became a Commonwealth in political union with the US”. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:03, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
More unsourced factoids, now mixed with some evidentiary, so it’s better? All U.S. territory acquired after that ceded at 1783 Treaty of Paris was “unincorporated” until it was made a part of the Union by a population of 5,000 under the “legacy of Northwest Territory”. Not TFD unsourced ‘no unincorporated territory has every become a state’.
ALL populated territories have become states but the five acquired in the 1890s. Listing “all former territories” is silly as Collect points out. New Zealand has one non-self-governing territory. The U.N.
Non-self-governing territories List viewed March 20, 2013 now includes four administrators: UK has ten, US three, France one, New Zealand one.
One cannot TFD unsourced say, [states in free association] are not independent
, because
Decolonization webpage viewed March 20, 2013 ref. Gen. Assy. Res. 1541 (XV) of 1961, There are three ways in which a Non-Self-Governing Territory can exercise self-determination and full measure self-government: ** by free association in a free, informed democratic process; ** by integrating with “complete equality between the peoples” of Territory and State; ** or by becoming independent. One cannot say, TFD unsourced ---, Full U.S. citizenship and democratic acceptance of constitution, congress and federal courts in "a U.S. territory is irrelevant to population status"
. Independence is NOT required for self-determination.
One cannot TFD unsourced --- confuse U.S. territories and independent states in Free Association.
"Under the Covenant of 1976, establishing a Commonwealth in political union with the US ILM 651 (1976) the Northern Mariana Islands have a status similar to that of Puerto Rico but without a congressional delegate." [tvh note -- the neverending liability of tertiary sources misleading us--: since accepting two-year terms vice four-years, N. Marianas has NOW a territorial Member of Congress] …"The former self-governing territory of Guam has also achieved the status of a Commonwealth in union with the US." See
International Law: A Dictionary on pp. 38 ff.
TheVirginiaHistorian (
talk)
14:29, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
All U.S. territory acquired after that ceded at 1783 Treaty of Paris was “unincorporated” until it was made a part of the Union by a population of 5,000 under the “legacy of Northwest Territory”.is unsupported by any reference. So far as I can tell it it purely speculative synthesis. older ≠ wiser 14:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Widely accepted by mainstream sources" is not a source; you have no source to support your POV push for feudal imperialism in the modern era. It certainly does not apply today for the US territories of ** mutual negotiation between Congress and territorial legislature, followed by ** local population free and voluntary acceptance of US constitution, congress and ** autonomous local government with a path to full US citizenship by birth or naturalization. The modern country-article should not be the place to Right-great-wrongs over a century old; the article should describe the living. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
[insert] Some have confused late 1800s monarchy expanding empire by conquest with late 1900s democracy expanding empire by consent --- but I have not. All I post is cited and directly quoted, mostly linked, easily verified. Is it time for a fact-check? You have no source, no direct quotes, only wp:personal attacks. Your accusations are never supported and never counter-sourced. Could this be wp:bully? I post 3 or fewer paragraphs under 1” deep on most browsers, how do you see a “wall-of-text”? And here, I thought I was doing better.
Not only states, territories can be in a federal republic. Populations under jurisdiction without citizenship are not included, but with preparation for statehood --- including rights, citizenship, self-government and Member of Congress, “At present, the U.S. includes the Caribbean and Pacific territories, the District of Columbia, and, of course, the fifty states.” as Sparrow says in Levinson and Sparrow, 2005, p.232. There are multiple secondary government and scholarly sources with direct quotes available here at Talk. Welcome. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:09, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Sparrow never says American empire is a federal republic., but he shows three phases of territory from ** acquisition, to ** organization, to ** inclusion in the federal republic at their preparation for statehood --- “the legacy” of Northwest Territory. In the modern era, the USG subscribes to the UN charter. Clearly the Philippines is now independent, that IS the modern USG position one-hundred years since. The Insular Cases provided for that independence, as Congress would --- in time --- determine. ** Though forum participants noted “justice delayed is justice denied” --- another expression oft used as “Empire of Liberty” in American scholarship. Europeans snark we are an impatient lot. ** I would not offer the Lawson and Sloane interpretation of UN resolutions if you had not introduced them to me. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
You have no source for your wp:madeup “incorporation” Act of Congress. That thing never happened, though you stipulate there HAVE been incorporated US territories before statehood. Territories by “organic acts” may be ** unincorporated, ruled by appointed governors as a royal colony, or ** incorporated, with citizens, self-government and an elected territorial Member of Congress. These are cited by US Code section above, citizenship is "on the same basis" as that in states, scholars Lawson and Sloane have found it "virtually equivalent".
The phrase is a judicial one, The Court at Rassmussen said Alaska was a part of the US because citizenship was granted WITHOUT its organic act expressly using “incorporated” – though statehood was delayed 85 years (Levinson-Sparrow 2005 Preface).
TFD initiated this diversion, to impose a willful ignorance on Sparrow --- regarding Jefferson’s “Empire of Liberty” --- found in ** Freehling in Levinson-Sparrow 2005, p.81, and ** Onuf in Levinson-Sparrow 2005, p.53. TFDs assumption is that the co-editor of a peer reviewed academic publication had not read his own co-authored chapter 2 and chapter 3, as though he were a careless unsourced WP editor. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
"passing reference"for chapter titles #2, #6, and in seven chapters TJ territorial thought is discussed by name. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:33, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
All disputes that might arise in the future
is exactly the insight I needed to show 1814 Treaty of Ghent guaranteed Canadian borders by the boundary commissions. Where were you when I needed you? ** But here, more chronological confusion. Sparrow says Louisiana Territory with France was NOT in the 1783 Treaty with Britain. You wrongly claim "all continental territory" was incorporated in US history, BOTH 1783 Treaty and 1803 Treaty; but incorporation at constitutional ratification was NOT the Louisiana case --- do read the US history directly quoted from Downes at the post above.
There is no Jefferson Essay, but his “Empire of Liberty” understanding and precedent-setting --- incorporating alien populations into the US federal republic by voluntary citizenship --- deeply influences subsequent Congressional organic acts, federal jurisprudence and US scholarship. ** Setting up local [republican] government
is not my idea, it is found in the Northwest Territory, applied by Jefferson to the Louisiana Territory, and thereafter for all subsequent territories organized by Congress, see Downes trace of the US history. Until Congress followed that legacy, the overseas acquisitions would not be incorporated, but now that they are in that legacy, they are incorporated.
TheVirginiaHistorian (
talk)
14:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
"acts of incorporation"ever made for a territory by Congress in 200 years? I just assumed it was wp:madeup to dismiss the Organic Acts of history which do not use the word "incorporate". Our SOURCES have shown the term "incorporation" for territory is "judicial fiat" WITHOUT statutory support. Is there now a counter-source? Congress in US constitutional practice expressly incorporates the populations of territories by citizenship with their consent, as happens in a republic. In the U. Chicago Law Review we see Vignarajah, one of Mendaliv’s SOURCES, Political roots of judicial legitimacy, p.796 “Territories can be either incorporated or unincorporated; organized or unorganized. The determination of their status depends on the will of Congress.” Congress, the elected representatives of US citizens in a federal republic. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
The Insular Cases say only that acquired territories are not states for tax purposes (not me, Vignarajah), that is good law for US historical description for two hundred years, although Congress can change it under the Territories Clause. ** Congress has never declared any territory ever "incorporated", that is a term of judicial fiat without statutory precedence. The Court declared Alaska "incorporated" in Rassmussen because Congress intended "incorporation" when it made US citizens there. That is not my criteria, it is in an Insular Case. ** The chronology is not mine, it is Sparrows, a scholar cited extensively in Vignarajah's U. Chicago Law Review article. You will not read.
"The political development of the continental territories largely followed the legacy of the Northwest Ordinance, passed under the Articles of Confederation. For one, the territories followed a sequential process of development: a district phase; a second phase of territorial government (with 5,000 residents), and a third phase in preparation for statehood (with 60,000 eligible residents, a written constitution, and a republican government). Congress had to approve of each transition in the sequence. ... admitted on an 'equal footing basis' [tvh note: a phrase used in each modern era territory organic act] ... "The citizens were citizens of the United States, then, although not the citizens of any particular state." p.232-233. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Much of the discussion about the definition of the U.S. has centered on Sparrow's article about the American "empire". The were differences about how to interpret it, however here is a link to a book review where he outlines his view in great detail. They are consistent with my reading of his article about the American empire.
In the review, he says that although Americans think of the U.S. as a federal republic, it is not federal and not a republic, because it includes territories. It is not even constitutional because the Constitution does not permit territories, and it is undemocratic. Puerto Rico is however an "unicorporated territory", and the status of territories was determined by the insular cases. Puerto Ricans do not have the same rights as other American citizens and are not represented in Congress. (Note that is the opinion provided in the source, not necessarily my own opinion.)
We have therefore secondary sources making different claims: most say that the U.S. is a republic that has territories, Sparrow says it is an empire that includes territories. Combining the two to say it is a republic that includes territories is synthesis and I would welcome comments about how we resolve the conflicting sources before asking for input at the OR noticeboard.
TFD ( talk) 15:14, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
The solution is to write a sourced online encyclopedia with secondary government and scholarly sources. This section continues is the TFD pattern of misrepresenting past now superseded ideas as present. Here Sparrow describes others at Duke in a 2002 book review, TFD misrepresents THAT as his 2005 essay (Levinson and Sparrow). Sparrow’s view of the Duke U. Press anthology was that it saw Puerto Rico as a colony, but some of the contributors disagreed with one another, and that these essays could well spur further work.” “Foreign in a Domestic Sense” is reported to have had a theme throughout, that modern territories had not the same status as states.
Then when Sparrow wrote a paper for the University of Texas forum anthology of 2005, Sparrow contributes his political science in an historical context, with the forum's multidisciplinary focus: "The U.S. has always been more than states." Territories can be a part of a federal republic when they are incorporated prior to statehood by congressional “legacy of the Northwest Territory”. His takeaway by 2005, "At present, the United States includes the Caribbean and Pacific territories, the District of Columbia and, of course, the fifty states." (Sparrow in Levinson and Sparrow, 2005, p.232). Louisiana Purchase and American expansion, 1803-1898
— Preceding unsigned comment added by TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk • contribs) 10:36, 29 March 2013
This talk page would be vastly improved if we never quoted Sparrow again. I don't understand why y'all are obsessed with this singular source. -- Golbez ( talk) 12:50, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
1. If a territory is a state, then it is incorporated into the federal republic. 2. A territory is not a state. 3. Therefore, a territory is not incorporated into the federal republic., a non sequitur (logic). TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Someone has denied incorporation for the five cases under discussion. US territories belong to it … “that doesn't make them a part of the US”. -- CMD
2 November 2012. It is not correct to say, “the US is governed by a federal (constitutional) republic”-- CMD
15 March 2013. Congress is the first branch of government, the expression of all “natural born Americans” including states, DC, MP, GM, AS, PR and VI (US Census). Since 1985, except when sitting as the House of [State] Representatives, DC and all five territories have Members of Congress (alphabetically among states at
US Representative locator) with “the same powers as other members of the House” (
House explained) in appointments, all floor debate and voting in committee, caucus, conference, and Committee of the Whole.
DC residents have fundamental rights, full citizenship and territorial MoC just as the five organized territories. They do have lesser federal Article I courts with two-year term judges, while the five organized territories have superior federal Article III courts with life appointments. The US territories are incorporated, DC is LIKEWISE incorporated, its municipal government is more often rechartered by Congress UNLIKE the territories with governors defined throughout US Code as "states". Only those disputing modern era "territory included” status imagine constitutionally lesser-than DC to be excluded from the federal republic, and I am not one of those; you do misrepresent me. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 09:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
“sources have been provided”is not a source, you have no source; there are none to say modern era organized territories are NOT a part of the US. ** USG says in secondary sources interpreting congressional statute, at State, GAO, and Homeland in Welcome, a guide p.7, “The US now consists of 50 states, the District, the territories of Guam, Am. Samoa, and the U.S. Virgin Is., ... the N. Mariana Is. and Puerto Rico.” Only the wp:fringe says we MUST automatically dismiss USG self-descriptions. ** Strawman the Insular Cases show territories are not states, still good law for unequal tax regimes (Vignarajah), that is stipulated by me at least, Insular Cases cannot be your high horse, step off the dead one.
You have no counter-source to the direct quote cited and linked to Sparrow and Sloane, only unsupported editor contradiction. Your endless citation to Insular Cases either refer to ** the irrelevant territories-are-not-states for revenues collection, rulings still in force, or to ** delay of incorporation based on islander "capacities" in citizenship, juries, elections and legislatures --- delay Court-justified until Congress "expressly" makes them US citizens as those in states, the legacy of the Northwest Territory as recounted in Downes (1901) and Sparrow (2005).
The 'good law' of Insular Cases rulings is that territories are not under the Uniformity Clause for states. The subject under discussion is territorial incorporation of citizens into the US federal republic. That once Court-justified delay has been superseded by statute. No source today says the living islanders in the modern era territories --- guaranteed fundamental rights, practiced in self-government as US citizens, and with a Member of Congress in the national legislature --- are today incompetent to self-determination within the US federal republic. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
[insert] The issue is not an abstract ideal, it’s whether five territories are a part of the US, a federal republic.
as found in government secondary sources from State, GAO and Homeland. 1. First, a territory in a federal republic can be a part of the country, territories need not be states, law and tax regimes need not be uniform for territories as with states, as found in the Insular Cases (Vignarajah), stipulated on both sides. 2. The five territories have basic human rights with autonomous government and Member of Congress (Lawson and Sloane) in the legacy of the Northwest Territory (Sparrow) is stipulated on both sides. 3. The five territories have republican government consistent with and larger than continental territories “incorporated” in the US prior to statehood (Levinson and Sparrow) is asserted and unargued. 4. Therefore, the five territories under discussion are a part of the US as confirmed by secondary government and scholarly sources.
TheVirginiaHistorian (
talk)
13:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
You partially restate only one of Sparrow’s three phases, which you insist on truncating to narrow the discussion by
reductio ad absurdum. Largely following the Northwest Territory, Phase I. The continental territories were a part of the US ["as districts"] when annexed by petition, treaty or conquest.
Phase II. The "territories are organized" with presidentially appointed governor, military or civilian. (Sparrow notes 12 states without this phase.) But as John Marshall said, US territory was never meant to be "merely possessions". Phase III. The populations "in preparation for statehood" are made a part of the Union, in mutual consent by democratic means with citizenship and republican government. These THREE phases are "the legacy of the Northwest Territory", then and now. US territories acquired one hundred years ago overseas were denied the "legacy of Northwest Territory", then.
The discussion here concerns the status of five modern era territories, now. They are organized according to historical US constitutional practice, including mutual consent of the American people in Congress and the territorial populations in self-elected legislature and referendum. Lawson and Sloane have explained citizens in territories today, regardless of theoretical considerations of the Insular Cases regarding citizenship, achieve constitutional status the same as those in states, now. This makes the five organized territories and the people in them a part of the US federal republic. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Comparing Rassmussen and Balzac in their treatment of trial by jury. Please note as to the process of incorporation hinging on citizenship with all rights and privileges, both cases reflect the same historical narrative for a territory becoming incorporated as Sparrow’s Stage III, preparation for statehood. To paraphrase and quote [ Balzac v. Porto Rico, If a trial by jury were fundamental rather than procedural, it would be imposed on non-jury systems of justice in the territories without their consent. But Congress waits until Puerto Ricans petition for it. Congress makes Puerto Ricans citizens without naturalization for now (1922). Congress will undertake incorporation deliberately, not … mere inference.
In the 1950s, on petition from the PR legislature, Congress offered and the Puerto Rican people accepted by referendum, 48 USC § 737 - Privileges and immunities "The rights, privileges, and immunities of citizens of the United States shall be respected in Puerto Rico to the same extent as though Puerto Rico were a State of the Union and subject to the provisions of paragraph 1 of section 2 of article IV of the Constitution of the United States." TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 13:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I restored a recently deleted tax breakdown by burden and effective rate with updated numbers (not sure how long the original version had been here or who wrote it), and started this discussion section in case anyone had comments, questions, or problems with it. I also expanded it per TVH’s suggestion to describe and distinguish between federal income, payroll, and state/local taxes, and cited key numbers to illustrate these differences. Another editor requested that I included a mention of the top 1%, so I did. For federal burden share I used the latest CBO numbers I could find (2009, published in 2012), and for federal effective rates I used the most recent Tax Policy Center numbers (so there’d be something more recent than 2009 in the paragraph). State/local numbers are difficult to come by and therefore dicey, so I didn’t explicitly cite them, but every calculation I’ve seen shows that taxation remains at least somewhat progressive even when state/local taxes are added to the mix. Even the aggressively left wing CTJ/ITEP (CTJ is the outfit’s lobbying arm) admits that total federal/state/local taxation is “barely progressive”, and it uses a fatally flawed methodology that significantly understates high earners’ federal rate (among other criticisms) as compared to the CBO and (also liberal leaning) Tax Policy Center. The latter two groups have slightly differing methodologies but show very similar results in overlapping years. VictorD7 ( talk) 19:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
THe United States is no longer the sole superpower. This is a misleading blanket statement. If this refers to military power, 9 nations now possess nuclear weapons, and that number will only increase. If this refers to economic power, the recent recession smashed any possibility of that. I guess this could be referring to some kind of cultural power, but superpower generally isn't used that way. Unless someone comes out with reasons not to change this, I'm going to modify the statement. Rwenonah ( talk) 22:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
A couple sources: Shifting Superpowers:The New and Emerging Relationship Betweeen the United States, China, and India( http://books.google.ca/books?id=t1SKkwWJnYkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=superpowers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kf1dUbHJKer1ygGg74DACw&ved=0CFsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=superpowers&f=false)
From Superpower to Beisieged Global Power:( http://books.google.ca/books?id=iaTnm48GW-cC&pg=PR19&dq=united+states+not+superpower&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YgBeUbL3IeLRyAG3h4DABg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=united%20states%20not%20superpower&f=false)
Rwenonah ( talk) 22:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Steven Rosefielde, Cambridge University Press, 2004
New York Times by Ronald Steel professor of international relations August 24, 2008 (Superpower Reborn)
The Globalist – June 2, 2010 cite: “An Insecure Foothold for the United States; Russia is certainly still a superpower comparable only to the United States” - http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=8498
"Russia the Best of the BRICs" – AG Metal Miner News by Stuart Burns – Sept 19, 2010
"The Dangers of Nuclear Disarmament" – Project-Syndicate News by Sergei Karaganov – April 29, 2010
Netanyahu declares Russia as superpower- Russia Today News 15 Feb 2010
Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez recognizes independence of breakaway Georgia republics by Megan K. Stack. Sept 9, 2009- http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/11/world/fg-russia-chavez11
Washington Acknowledges Russia as a Superpower -Daniel Fried, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs by Kommersant News May 26, 2007
Rwenonah ( talk) 19:41, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
US will lose global financial superpower status: German FM: The Hindu, September 25, 2008: http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200809252054.htm
− U.S. 'superpower' status slides in world's eyes, by Eoin Callan, Financial Post,
− 9/25/2008: http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=838634
− TOPWRAP 15-U.S. bailout in chaos, government seizes Washington Mutual, Sept 26, 2008, Guardian News and Media Limited,
− http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7826065
− US slipping as financial superpower, Businessweek By PATRICK McGROARTY Sept. 25, 2008, http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D93DP05O0.htm
− US ‘will lose financial superpower status’, By Bertrand Benoit in Berlin
− Sept. 25 2008, FT.com, http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1d6a4f3a-8aee-11dd-b634-0000779fd18c.html
− Germany says U.S. to lose superpower status, Xinhuanet, Sept 26, 2008,
− http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-09/26/content_10112504.htm
− U.S. Losing Finance Superpower Status, Germany Says (Update3), Bloomberg,
− By Leon Mangasarian, Sept. 25, 2008, http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=ahUuZ8Z5rkDA&refer=germany
− Financial Crisis: US will lose superpower status, crows Germany; Telegraph.co.uk, by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
− Sept 25, 2008, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3081909/Financial-Crisis-US-will-lose-superpower-status-crows-Germany.html
− Bush: ‘Our entire economy is in danger’ MSNBC by Associated Press, Sept 24, 2008, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26871338/?GT1=43001 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26871338/?GT1=43001
− Rwenonah ( talk) 22:44, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
The inclusion of the fact that its status as sole superpower may be in dispute is all I've really been attempting to do since the beginning. However, this is clearly quite controversial enough for it to have been discussed multiple times in the past. Perhaps we define controversial differently. You're right about taking this to to other articles,however. Rwenonah ( talk) 11:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
So I'm curious: What does any of arguing between TVH and TFD above have to do with this article? Honestly. I can barely read any of it, but what little penetrates my brain seems to be arguing over y'alls interpretation of a single source. What bearing does this argument have on the article? Instead of wasting space and time here, could you have your discussion elsewhere and get back to us if and when agreement springs out of it that is relevant to the article? I don't see how this has to even do with the territories argument anymore, it's simply arguing over whose interpretation of a single source is incorrect.
We would all be vastly better off if you both took a back seat for a while, because you are literally accomplishing nothing. There is no word for how much effort you two are wasting in this pointless endeavor. I would very much look forward to a formal RFM/RFC process, but only if you two were not permitted to infect it with your ramblings. -- Golbez ( talk) 20:10, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Three points. First, both of us are reading more deeply and carefully into our sources through discussion, sharpening our points of view. Second, although mistaken in this matter of including territories, Golbez, TFD and Mendaliv are three who are, by-and-large, well read and well intentioned. They can be sourced, reasonable and engaged, responding directly and intelligently to each turn in the discussion --- certainly for the most part, regardless of whatever way they may be mistaken at each turn.
Third, please let it be, that no one is required to join a discussion, but no discussion is to be ended unless editors violate WP procedural policy. On the other hand, please write a bot to block any post that begins, [Personal attack of choice], “all sources say” do not include islanders.
--- without a source. It’s like a pre-printed NRA Second-Amendment postcard to a Representative from the non-constituent. One admires the organizational effort at the mass mailing, but they are not worth the reading.
TheVirginiaHistorian (
talk)
12:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
There are four questions that present themselves to us:
These are four overlapping but distinct questions. It doesn't matter if we determine that they are incorporated if that doesn't mean they are part of the country; likewise, if we determine they are part of the country then their incorporation status is academic at best. Likewise, if we determine organization alone means they are part of the country then the incorporation argument becomes academic, but it also complicates matters with regard to American Samoa.
I want to touch on questions 1 and 3 in this post; 4 is complicated, and 2 will follow from the results of 1 and 3 I believe.
The insular cases from early in the 20th century established the incorporation dynamic. I'm going to start from square one on this as I have no interest in wading through the months of repetitive arguing, so I apologize in advance if I ask you to repeat something:
So far as I know, the answer to all three is no.
A third party source cannot change the makeup of a country. Period. No matter how many books we can find saying so, we cannot say that X is part of Y unless X says it is. The Republic of China claims the whole of its 1949 territory; this is fact. This cannot be changed by any book. Now, they control vastly less, but that does not change what they say they own. Likewise, no matter how many books you could find that say so, you can never say that Mongolia is part of the Republic of China, no matter how much they claim it. A book cannot incorporate land into a country, and a book cannot change how a country defines itself. Likewise, you might have been able to find books calling Iraq, West Berlin, Guantanamo Bay, or Okinawa an occupied colony of the United States but we would never consider saying it was part of the country.
Absent a statement from a higher court, the high executive, or Congress, the United States says that the territories are not part of the country. Also, absent a statement from those source, and in fact according to many lower sources in the government, the United States says the inhabited territories are unincorporated.
No third party source can contradict this. All they can do is elucidate it. We cannot rely upon third party analysis to contradict a first party's statement of themselves. It's like relying on third party work to call someone gay or Muslim when they say they are straight or Christian. We can make note of this analysis, but we can never portray it as a statement of fact. Likewise, we could say many sources say the territories are incorporated and/or part of the country, but absent a first party confirmation we simply cannot state it as a fact.
So please, if you have any link to an explicit overturning of the incorporation dynamic, or an explicit statement that the territories are part of the country, from the three government sources I list above, please give it.
Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, there is no evidence that any of the territories are incorporated, or that they are part of the country.
I await your responses. -- Golbez ( talk) 14:58, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Nope. The primary question should be:
Guam? US flag. Puerto Rico? US flag. Marianas? US flag. And so on. The parsing to a tendentious extent that "well it is not really part of the US" has gone on for far too long here to be looked at with a straight face any more at all. If an area's citizens hold US citizenship, the government is subject to courts established by Congress pursuant to the US Constitution, and the like - then trying to say anything other than it is "part of the United States" is absurd at this point. From the NorthWest Ordinance on, the concept of territories rationally being part of the US has been accepted law - and the Insular Cases are now moot as a result of government actions (yep - Acts of Congress can change the status of a territory). And the idea that a leasehold (vide Guantanamo) is a "territory", or that an area held as a result of treaty for a period of time after a war is a "territory" (The American Zone in Germany was never deemed a "territory of the US" by any source that I can find, and the status of the Ryukus was never that of a "territory of the US" but was under UN Trusteeship per the San Francisco Treaty [9] ) is similarly absurd and irrelevant to any of this. Collect ( talk) 19:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
You seems unclear on the concept of sovereignty. Collect has laid out an understandable and reasonable explanation which improves the article. We don't need and can't use primary government sources as you request. Collect has this right. Capitalismojo ( talk) 02:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Response tvh #2. Sources. Primary sources are best used when supporting reliable secondary sources. They are satisfactory when no scholarship can be found. The quality of WP is not based on its editors alone, but on its sourced contributions. Tertiary sources are reluctantly used in the absence of secondary sources and when no direct quotes from primary sources can be found on the subject.
If reliable scholars, Chinese maintain PRC boundaries A-extent, and European show B-extent, then the narrative must account for both. The government’s published assertion in a country-article might take precedence in the narrative --- secondary taking precedence over primary, primary over tertiary --- then qualified in turn by the Chinese and European references. In any event, The de facto government’s representation of its geographical extent should not be summarily excluded. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 12:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Response tvh #3. Anachronistic error. The insular cases from early in the 20th century established the incorporation dynamic.
No, the incorporation dynamic was begun in the Articles Congress with the Northwest Territory, extended at the Louisiana Purchase, and complicated by judicial innovation in the Insular Cases without statutory precedence.
Insular Cases established ** territories were not states for tax and revenue purposes, and ** alien populations in acquired territories were not incorporated until Congress expressly did so incorporate persons as citizens as described in Court discussions of the US history of incorporation in a) 1783 Treaty territory, b) later acquired continental territory, and c) overseas territory. In the first sense, they are NOT overturned, in the second sense, they are superseded by statute [insert: federal statute] in all five organized territories by 1985. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 13:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
The Insular Cases and Sparrow substantiate the history of US territory incorporation for 200 years, that history is Not editor
madeup rules.
Further Lawson and Sloane assure us that the UN allows for individual nation-state constitutional practice, all the world need not conform to Great Britain. There is no counter-source. The questions asked are answered, you will not read the Insular Cases cited. There are more 'Include territory' answers from other sources, including government, but the key is to ensure a scholar gives a sourced basis for representing our understanding of the primary documents. Without scholarship, all descends to editor synthesis and original research.
These government primary and secondary sources are confirmed by Sparrow in a reliable scholarly source (Levinson and Sparrow 2005), Today the US includes the Pacific and Caribbean territories. There is no counter-source referring to the modern era territories other than what it says here in secondary government and scholarly sources -- organized territories are a part of the US. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 17:32, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
@ Golbez (i). DC was NOT unambiguously part of the domestic US federal republic, it was under direct governance by Congress, nothing passed by city council was made law until Congress made it so. Only in 1971 was DC home rule allowed DC local elections comparable to Puerto Rico. Bumper stickers read “DC the last colony”. In the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, the US was defined “domestically” only as states. A separate section followed after for territories and DC in the same section. You cannot be making up your own US history as we go along, Where do you get these factoids that are unsubstantiated in American historiography?
The Insular Cases context of domestic US versus alien, non-citizen islanders is like DC before they were trusted with electing a Member of Congress to join national councils. Islanders would be incorporated as citizens later by Congress when they had the "capacity" and "desire" to vote, serve on juries, convene a legislature and elect a Member of Congress. The Court would not do those things, Congress would; and Congress did for five organized territories by 1986: N. Marianas, Guam, Am. Samoa, US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico.
You ask for an "overturning" of the Court which said Congress would expressly grant privileges to people in territories, but there is none. We have sourced observation that by 1986, Congress included five territories in the US in accordance with its 200-year constitutional practice. The American people in Congress and the Territorial people in local legislature and referendum, mutually agreed to fundamental rights under the Constitution and Congress, citizenship, self-governance with a Member of Congress. But over 200 years, Congress has not created territories with privileges reserved for states.
All questions are answered by US constitutional practice. References to British Empire are irrelevant, nations may have dissimilar histories you are wrong to insist they cannot. Democratic federal republics are not monarchies, Puerto Rico is not 1607 Virginia. There is NO modern source to say “Modern era territories are not a part of the US” --- but there are more than twenty over the last 20 years to say that they ARE a part of the US, as cited, directly quoted and linked at Talk:United States and its archives. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
@ TFD. Incorporating territories in the history of the US federal republic has rewritten “the whole history of colonialism” by monarchies. As US territories are incorporated, besides fundamental rights, voluntary citizenship, and local autonomy, they are given representation in national councils by territorial Member of Congress, with floor debate.
Now in the modern era, territorial Members of Congress have privileges expanded over those of previously incorporated continental territories of the past --- expanded to voting in committees, senate conference, and House Committee of the Whole, staff funding, and military academy appointments. It makes no sense to say territories today with more privileges than those of the past have not achieved the same constitutional status as those before. Scholars demonstrate that modern territories have a constitutional status "equivalent to states", states are constitutionally incorporated. Territories have never had state-only privileges, those being reserved to states.
US Virgin Islands has a Member of Congress --- British Virgin Islands has no Member of Parliament. Colonial history is indeed rewritten with the arrival of a federal republic on history’s stage. For 200 years the United States (a) expands its territorial possessions, (b) administers them by appointed governors, (c) incorporates them in preparation for statehood, and (d) admits them states, by Congress, as described in the Insular Cases and American historiography. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:14, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Since the case determined that Puerto Rico was not part of the United States, your comment that it decided the territories were part of the U.S. is bizarre. Territories may or may not be part of the U.S. And no, D.C. was not incorporated in 1871. Instead, "to put at rest all doubts regarding the applicability of the Constitution to the District of Columbia, Congress...specifically extended the Constitution and laws of the United States to this District." It may have been that in 1820, when Marshall wrote the passage you quote, which was cited in Downes, the republic was composed of states and territories. The question is which territories are part of the republic and which are outside it. TFD ( talk) 16:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
@TFD you cite no source for the territory is incorporated at treaty. WP cannot be a source for WP. We both agree to the authority of Downes v. Bidwell. It says otherwise --- in good history consistent with American historiography by scholars previously cited. Eventual statehood does not make territorial incorporation before the fact, another chronological non-sequitur error on your part.
This is how it has been done in US constitutional practice for 200 years, as in the case of Louisiana Territory. ** Stage 1. Ratified Treaty brings possession Oct 20, 1803, ** Stage 2. administered by the President Oct 31, 1803, then ** Stage 3. citizenship and territorial self government had it been within the US "at the time the Constitution was framed" (Downes), the "legacy of the Northwest Territory" in preparation for statehood (Sparrow), --- makes "the territory of Orleans incorporated into the United States", Mar 2, 1805. ** First part of Louisiana Territory admitted to statehood as Louisiana Apr 30, 1812.
Incorporation of each modern territory is found following the constitutional practice of the US in the Congressional organic act for each territory with voluntary citizenship, self-government and a Member of Congress as though "it had been within the US at the time the Constitution was framed." (Downes), as previously provided for each modern territory. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:08, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
“Participation in national councils” in the “legacy of the Northwest Territory” requires a non-voting territorial Member of Congress. The closest to one-stop-shopping I could find in primary sources to nail down a date for four territories included in the US federal republic is TITLE 48—TERRITORIES AND INSULAR POSSESSIONS CHAPTER 16—DELEGATES TO CONGRESS, p. 169. Subchapter I. Guam and Virgin Islands, 1972. Subchapter II. American Samoa. 1978. Subchapter III. Northern Mariana Islands. 2008.
The fifth, Puerto Rico is complicated. I rely on a scholary source for the “legacy” preparation for statehood. It could not be before 1947, when Congress provided for the popular election of Puerto Rico’s governor. R. Sam Garrett at the Congressional Research Service Political Status of Puerto Rico 2011 said, “In 1950, Congress, the President, and the people of Puerto Rico began a process that led to the Puerto Rican constitution, which is in effect today.” (p.9) The Resident Commissioner elected in a Puerto Rican constitution by consent would be dated from 1952. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
@ Golbez Since 18 January, you have had, U.S. Dept. of State “Foreign Affairs Manual” Vol. 7 Consular Affairs 1121.4 Laws Governing Status of Persons Born in Outlying Possessions 1121.4-2. Under the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (p.5) Under the INA (effective December 24, 1952 to present), the definition of: (1) "United States," for nationality purposes, was expanded to add Guam; and, effective November 3, 1986, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (in addition to Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands). Persons born in these territories on or after December 24, 1952 acquire U.S. citizenship at birth on the same terms as persons born in other parts of the US; and
(2) "Outlying possessions of the United States" was restricted to American Samoa and Swains Island. U.S. citizenship could be acquired by birth in outlying possessions of parents, one of whom is a citizen of the US physically present in the US or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 16:48, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Page 35 of the book cited (Levinson and Sparrow 2005) is in the middle of “The first incorporation debate” chapter by Gary Lawson and Guy Seidman, the same Lawson of the Lawson and Sloane article (2009) I have quoted to advantage previously. On page 36 of your reference, it says, “the doctrine of the Insular Cases simply makes no sense.” Do we really want to go there?
Lawson and Siedman (2005) explain that the Insular Cases observed In 1901 islanders "were 'alien races, differing from us in customs, religion and laws" (p.36). But they are no longer "alien" on any of these counts. The Insular Cases simply showed the case in 1901, non-citizens are aliens to the nation, not a part of it. OR (a) Did you mean to take "alien" in the Insular Cases as unchanging racial identity into the 21st century after US citizenship, customs and laws have been mirrored, internalized and practiced for half-a-century? OR (b) Did you have a religious test in mind for the former Spanish colonies once holding an official Catholic state religion a century ago? Is not religion freely chosen in each generation by US custom? Did the Insular Cases say by constitutional law no islander can change his religion evermore without "express" consent of Congress in your view?
In Downes we have “citizenship was conferred, and the territory of Orleans was incorporated into the US to fulfill the requirements of the treaty, by placing it exactly in the position which it would have occupied had it been within the boundaries of the US as a territory at the time the Constitution was framed.” Downes v. Bidwell.
Exactly as within the Northwest Territory of 1789 meant as in Samoa and four other incorporated territories with US citizens today, (a) fundamental rights but not those yet granted by Congress, (b) a population mix of citizenship and non-citizen nationals, (c) a three-branch form of government, (d) a non-voting Member of Congress. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:34, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
"A part of the US" is related to US citizenship in a US organized state, district or territory. Downes v. Bidwell: “If immediately upon annexation citizens, their children, “savages or civilized” would have all rights of citizens, the consequences will be “extremely serious”. “It is doubtful if Congress would ever assent to the annexation of territory” conditional on immediate citizenship to aliens. In all these cases there is “an implied denial of the inhabitants to American citizenship until Congress by further action shall signify its assent thereto.” Therefore Puerto Rico in 1901 was unincorporated, though to be organized, and their alien children, “savages or civilized”, were NOT to be citizens UNTIL congress expressly gave them nationality in the US.
Congress expressly HAS made them so, as incorporation is of persons not places, not in possession but in preparation for statehood. That is the same standard of “incorporation” for Territories from Louisiana to Alaska. Puerto Ricans have agreed to voluntary citizenship since 1950s, established an organized US territory with self-government and elected a Member of Congress "exactly in the position" as a Northwest Territory at Constitutional ratification. Likewise with all modern era US territories, they are incorporated into the federal republic and a part of the US. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 09:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
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Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | → | Archive 55 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An editor reverted to the lead to how it was before the lengthy DRN discussion and consensus. The change can be seen here. I have modified the lead to something closer to what was achieved at the DRN with this edit per WP:BRD, which had a consensus of a majority of editors who were involved at DRN. Although Consensus can change, there is no new consensus to support reversion to the lead sentences structure to as it was before the DRN discussion.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 00:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
the country itself can say what it claims, is why Congressional organic acts --- to "include" the territories --- are interpreted by three government agencies, State, GAO and Homeland for reference. These are supported by scholarly sources in direct quotes, not editor pov-pushing primary court citations unrelated to secondary sources. Likewise to avoid editor-driven synthesis from flawed tertiary digests --- which in this discussion have been shown to represent 1905 as 2005, misreport "affirmed" as "reversed", confuse mayors with governors, and omit territorial representation since 1985. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 00:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
WP:CONSENSUS does not say "count editors by who adds more sources" and I would note that I, indeed, did add NWT-related sources, as well as SCOTUS sources in the discussions - meaning your "count" is abysmally useless. We use "consensus of editors" and not "only count editors I want to count" and by any normal rational consideration of the policy as written, we have one - to include territories. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 13:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
9) The United States of America is a nation state governed by a federal constitutional republic, consisting of fifty states and a federal district as well as several territories. It is commonly called the United States (US, USA, U.S. or U.S.A.) and colloquially as America, The territories have differing degrees of autonomy.
Damn sure looks like 7 supports. Your mileage appears to vary greatly from what is in the DRN archives. Collect ( talk) 15:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the introduction sentence include the three sovereign nations in free association with the US? Or in later discussion. They are Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) 1982 for 15-years, Republic of Marshal Is. (RMI) 1983 for 15-years and Republic of Palau, approved by Congress in 1986, and endorsed by the UN later that year. The Republic of Palau opted for a longer 50-year Compact ratified in Palau in 1994.
Stanley O. Roth, Asst. Secy Dept. of State, House International Relations Committee testimony October 1998. From 1947 to 1978 apart of the UN Trust Territory of Pacific Islands , the people of the Northern Mariana Islands opted for an association making them U.S. citizens, then in “1986, the N. Mariana Is. became a Commonwealth in political union with the US”. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:03, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
More unsourced factoids, now mixed with some evidentiary, so it’s better? All U.S. territory acquired after that ceded at 1783 Treaty of Paris was “unincorporated” until it was made a part of the Union by a population of 5,000 under the “legacy of Northwest Territory”. Not TFD unsourced ‘no unincorporated territory has every become a state’.
ALL populated territories have become states but the five acquired in the 1890s. Listing “all former territories” is silly as Collect points out. New Zealand has one non-self-governing territory. The U.N.
Non-self-governing territories List viewed March 20, 2013 now includes four administrators: UK has ten, US three, France one, New Zealand one.
One cannot TFD unsourced say, [states in free association] are not independent
, because
Decolonization webpage viewed March 20, 2013 ref. Gen. Assy. Res. 1541 (XV) of 1961, There are three ways in which a Non-Self-Governing Territory can exercise self-determination and full measure self-government: ** by free association in a free, informed democratic process; ** by integrating with “complete equality between the peoples” of Territory and State; ** or by becoming independent. One cannot say, TFD unsourced ---, Full U.S. citizenship and democratic acceptance of constitution, congress and federal courts in "a U.S. territory is irrelevant to population status"
. Independence is NOT required for self-determination.
One cannot TFD unsourced --- confuse U.S. territories and independent states in Free Association.
"Under the Covenant of 1976, establishing a Commonwealth in political union with the US ILM 651 (1976) the Northern Mariana Islands have a status similar to that of Puerto Rico but without a congressional delegate." [tvh note -- the neverending liability of tertiary sources misleading us--: since accepting two-year terms vice four-years, N. Marianas has NOW a territorial Member of Congress] …"The former self-governing territory of Guam has also achieved the status of a Commonwealth in union with the US." See
International Law: A Dictionary on pp. 38 ff.
TheVirginiaHistorian (
talk)
14:29, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
All U.S. territory acquired after that ceded at 1783 Treaty of Paris was “unincorporated” until it was made a part of the Union by a population of 5,000 under the “legacy of Northwest Territory”.is unsupported by any reference. So far as I can tell it it purely speculative synthesis. older ≠ wiser 14:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Widely accepted by mainstream sources" is not a source; you have no source to support your POV push for feudal imperialism in the modern era. It certainly does not apply today for the US territories of ** mutual negotiation between Congress and territorial legislature, followed by ** local population free and voluntary acceptance of US constitution, congress and ** autonomous local government with a path to full US citizenship by birth or naturalization. The modern country-article should not be the place to Right-great-wrongs over a century old; the article should describe the living. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
[insert] Some have confused late 1800s monarchy expanding empire by conquest with late 1900s democracy expanding empire by consent --- but I have not. All I post is cited and directly quoted, mostly linked, easily verified. Is it time for a fact-check? You have no source, no direct quotes, only wp:personal attacks. Your accusations are never supported and never counter-sourced. Could this be wp:bully? I post 3 or fewer paragraphs under 1” deep on most browsers, how do you see a “wall-of-text”? And here, I thought I was doing better.
Not only states, territories can be in a federal republic. Populations under jurisdiction without citizenship are not included, but with preparation for statehood --- including rights, citizenship, self-government and Member of Congress, “At present, the U.S. includes the Caribbean and Pacific territories, the District of Columbia, and, of course, the fifty states.” as Sparrow says in Levinson and Sparrow, 2005, p.232. There are multiple secondary government and scholarly sources with direct quotes available here at Talk. Welcome. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:09, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Sparrow never says American empire is a federal republic., but he shows three phases of territory from ** acquisition, to ** organization, to ** inclusion in the federal republic at their preparation for statehood --- “the legacy” of Northwest Territory. In the modern era, the USG subscribes to the UN charter. Clearly the Philippines is now independent, that IS the modern USG position one-hundred years since. The Insular Cases provided for that independence, as Congress would --- in time --- determine. ** Though forum participants noted “justice delayed is justice denied” --- another expression oft used as “Empire of Liberty” in American scholarship. Europeans snark we are an impatient lot. ** I would not offer the Lawson and Sloane interpretation of UN resolutions if you had not introduced them to me. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
You have no source for your wp:madeup “incorporation” Act of Congress. That thing never happened, though you stipulate there HAVE been incorporated US territories before statehood. Territories by “organic acts” may be ** unincorporated, ruled by appointed governors as a royal colony, or ** incorporated, with citizens, self-government and an elected territorial Member of Congress. These are cited by US Code section above, citizenship is "on the same basis" as that in states, scholars Lawson and Sloane have found it "virtually equivalent".
The phrase is a judicial one, The Court at Rassmussen said Alaska was a part of the US because citizenship was granted WITHOUT its organic act expressly using “incorporated” – though statehood was delayed 85 years (Levinson-Sparrow 2005 Preface).
TFD initiated this diversion, to impose a willful ignorance on Sparrow --- regarding Jefferson’s “Empire of Liberty” --- found in ** Freehling in Levinson-Sparrow 2005, p.81, and ** Onuf in Levinson-Sparrow 2005, p.53. TFDs assumption is that the co-editor of a peer reviewed academic publication had not read his own co-authored chapter 2 and chapter 3, as though he were a careless unsourced WP editor. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 07:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
"passing reference"for chapter titles #2, #6, and in seven chapters TJ territorial thought is discussed by name. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:33, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
All disputes that might arise in the future
is exactly the insight I needed to show 1814 Treaty of Ghent guaranteed Canadian borders by the boundary commissions. Where were you when I needed you? ** But here, more chronological confusion. Sparrow says Louisiana Territory with France was NOT in the 1783 Treaty with Britain. You wrongly claim "all continental territory" was incorporated in US history, BOTH 1783 Treaty and 1803 Treaty; but incorporation at constitutional ratification was NOT the Louisiana case --- do read the US history directly quoted from Downes at the post above.
There is no Jefferson Essay, but his “Empire of Liberty” understanding and precedent-setting --- incorporating alien populations into the US federal republic by voluntary citizenship --- deeply influences subsequent Congressional organic acts, federal jurisprudence and US scholarship. ** Setting up local [republican] government
is not my idea, it is found in the Northwest Territory, applied by Jefferson to the Louisiana Territory, and thereafter for all subsequent territories organized by Congress, see Downes trace of the US history. Until Congress followed that legacy, the overseas acquisitions would not be incorporated, but now that they are in that legacy, they are incorporated.
TheVirginiaHistorian (
talk)
14:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
"acts of incorporation"ever made for a territory by Congress in 200 years? I just assumed it was wp:madeup to dismiss the Organic Acts of history which do not use the word "incorporate". Our SOURCES have shown the term "incorporation" for territory is "judicial fiat" WITHOUT statutory support. Is there now a counter-source? Congress in US constitutional practice expressly incorporates the populations of territories by citizenship with their consent, as happens in a republic. In the U. Chicago Law Review we see Vignarajah, one of Mendaliv’s SOURCES, Political roots of judicial legitimacy, p.796 “Territories can be either incorporated or unincorporated; organized or unorganized. The determination of their status depends on the will of Congress.” Congress, the elected representatives of US citizens in a federal republic. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
The Insular Cases say only that acquired territories are not states for tax purposes (not me, Vignarajah), that is good law for US historical description for two hundred years, although Congress can change it under the Territories Clause. ** Congress has never declared any territory ever "incorporated", that is a term of judicial fiat without statutory precedence. The Court declared Alaska "incorporated" in Rassmussen because Congress intended "incorporation" when it made US citizens there. That is not my criteria, it is in an Insular Case. ** The chronology is not mine, it is Sparrows, a scholar cited extensively in Vignarajah's U. Chicago Law Review article. You will not read.
"The political development of the continental territories largely followed the legacy of the Northwest Ordinance, passed under the Articles of Confederation. For one, the territories followed a sequential process of development: a district phase; a second phase of territorial government (with 5,000 residents), and a third phase in preparation for statehood (with 60,000 eligible residents, a written constitution, and a republican government). Congress had to approve of each transition in the sequence. ... admitted on an 'equal footing basis' [tvh note: a phrase used in each modern era territory organic act] ... "The citizens were citizens of the United States, then, although not the citizens of any particular state." p.232-233. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Much of the discussion about the definition of the U.S. has centered on Sparrow's article about the American "empire". The were differences about how to interpret it, however here is a link to a book review where he outlines his view in great detail. They are consistent with my reading of his article about the American empire.
In the review, he says that although Americans think of the U.S. as a federal republic, it is not federal and not a republic, because it includes territories. It is not even constitutional because the Constitution does not permit territories, and it is undemocratic. Puerto Rico is however an "unicorporated territory", and the status of territories was determined by the insular cases. Puerto Ricans do not have the same rights as other American citizens and are not represented in Congress. (Note that is the opinion provided in the source, not necessarily my own opinion.)
We have therefore secondary sources making different claims: most say that the U.S. is a republic that has territories, Sparrow says it is an empire that includes territories. Combining the two to say it is a republic that includes territories is synthesis and I would welcome comments about how we resolve the conflicting sources before asking for input at the OR noticeboard.
TFD ( talk) 15:14, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
The solution is to write a sourced online encyclopedia with secondary government and scholarly sources. This section continues is the TFD pattern of misrepresenting past now superseded ideas as present. Here Sparrow describes others at Duke in a 2002 book review, TFD misrepresents THAT as his 2005 essay (Levinson and Sparrow). Sparrow’s view of the Duke U. Press anthology was that it saw Puerto Rico as a colony, but some of the contributors disagreed with one another, and that these essays could well spur further work.” “Foreign in a Domestic Sense” is reported to have had a theme throughout, that modern territories had not the same status as states.
Then when Sparrow wrote a paper for the University of Texas forum anthology of 2005, Sparrow contributes his political science in an historical context, with the forum's multidisciplinary focus: "The U.S. has always been more than states." Territories can be a part of a federal republic when they are incorporated prior to statehood by congressional “legacy of the Northwest Territory”. His takeaway by 2005, "At present, the United States includes the Caribbean and Pacific territories, the District of Columbia and, of course, the fifty states." (Sparrow in Levinson and Sparrow, 2005, p.232). Louisiana Purchase and American expansion, 1803-1898
— Preceding unsigned comment added by TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk • contribs) 10:36, 29 March 2013
This talk page would be vastly improved if we never quoted Sparrow again. I don't understand why y'all are obsessed with this singular source. -- Golbez ( talk) 12:50, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
1. If a territory is a state, then it is incorporated into the federal republic. 2. A territory is not a state. 3. Therefore, a territory is not incorporated into the federal republic., a non sequitur (logic). TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Someone has denied incorporation for the five cases under discussion. US territories belong to it … “that doesn't make them a part of the US”. -- CMD
2 November 2012. It is not correct to say, “the US is governed by a federal (constitutional) republic”-- CMD
15 March 2013. Congress is the first branch of government, the expression of all “natural born Americans” including states, DC, MP, GM, AS, PR and VI (US Census). Since 1985, except when sitting as the House of [State] Representatives, DC and all five territories have Members of Congress (alphabetically among states at
US Representative locator) with “the same powers as other members of the House” (
House explained) in appointments, all floor debate and voting in committee, caucus, conference, and Committee of the Whole.
DC residents have fundamental rights, full citizenship and territorial MoC just as the five organized territories. They do have lesser federal Article I courts with two-year term judges, while the five organized territories have superior federal Article III courts with life appointments. The US territories are incorporated, DC is LIKEWISE incorporated, its municipal government is more often rechartered by Congress UNLIKE the territories with governors defined throughout US Code as "states". Only those disputing modern era "territory included” status imagine constitutionally lesser-than DC to be excluded from the federal republic, and I am not one of those; you do misrepresent me. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 09:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
“sources have been provided”is not a source, you have no source; there are none to say modern era organized territories are NOT a part of the US. ** USG says in secondary sources interpreting congressional statute, at State, GAO, and Homeland in Welcome, a guide p.7, “The US now consists of 50 states, the District, the territories of Guam, Am. Samoa, and the U.S. Virgin Is., ... the N. Mariana Is. and Puerto Rico.” Only the wp:fringe says we MUST automatically dismiss USG self-descriptions. ** Strawman the Insular Cases show territories are not states, still good law for unequal tax regimes (Vignarajah), that is stipulated by me at least, Insular Cases cannot be your high horse, step off the dead one.
You have no counter-source to the direct quote cited and linked to Sparrow and Sloane, only unsupported editor contradiction. Your endless citation to Insular Cases either refer to ** the irrelevant territories-are-not-states for revenues collection, rulings still in force, or to ** delay of incorporation based on islander "capacities" in citizenship, juries, elections and legislatures --- delay Court-justified until Congress "expressly" makes them US citizens as those in states, the legacy of the Northwest Territory as recounted in Downes (1901) and Sparrow (2005).
The 'good law' of Insular Cases rulings is that territories are not under the Uniformity Clause for states. The subject under discussion is territorial incorporation of citizens into the US federal republic. That once Court-justified delay has been superseded by statute. No source today says the living islanders in the modern era territories --- guaranteed fundamental rights, practiced in self-government as US citizens, and with a Member of Congress in the national legislature --- are today incompetent to self-determination within the US federal republic. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 14:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
[insert] The issue is not an abstract ideal, it’s whether five territories are a part of the US, a federal republic.
as found in government secondary sources from State, GAO and Homeland. 1. First, a territory in a federal republic can be a part of the country, territories need not be states, law and tax regimes need not be uniform for territories as with states, as found in the Insular Cases (Vignarajah), stipulated on both sides. 2. The five territories have basic human rights with autonomous government and Member of Congress (Lawson and Sloane) in the legacy of the Northwest Territory (Sparrow) is stipulated on both sides. 3. The five territories have republican government consistent with and larger than continental territories “incorporated” in the US prior to statehood (Levinson and Sparrow) is asserted and unargued. 4. Therefore, the five territories under discussion are a part of the US as confirmed by secondary government and scholarly sources.
TheVirginiaHistorian (
talk)
13:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
You partially restate only one of Sparrow’s three phases, which you insist on truncating to narrow the discussion by
reductio ad absurdum. Largely following the Northwest Territory, Phase I. The continental territories were a part of the US ["as districts"] when annexed by petition, treaty or conquest.
Phase II. The "territories are organized" with presidentially appointed governor, military or civilian. (Sparrow notes 12 states without this phase.) But as John Marshall said, US territory was never meant to be "merely possessions". Phase III. The populations "in preparation for statehood" are made a part of the Union, in mutual consent by democratic means with citizenship and republican government. These THREE phases are "the legacy of the Northwest Territory", then and now. US territories acquired one hundred years ago overseas were denied the "legacy of Northwest Territory", then.
The discussion here concerns the status of five modern era territories, now. They are organized according to historical US constitutional practice, including mutual consent of the American people in Congress and the territorial populations in self-elected legislature and referendum. Lawson and Sloane have explained citizens in territories today, regardless of theoretical considerations of the Insular Cases regarding citizenship, achieve constitutional status the same as those in states, now. This makes the five organized territories and the people in them a part of the US federal republic. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Comparing Rassmussen and Balzac in their treatment of trial by jury. Please note as to the process of incorporation hinging on citizenship with all rights and privileges, both cases reflect the same historical narrative for a territory becoming incorporated as Sparrow’s Stage III, preparation for statehood. To paraphrase and quote [ Balzac v. Porto Rico, If a trial by jury were fundamental rather than procedural, it would be imposed on non-jury systems of justice in the territories without their consent. But Congress waits until Puerto Ricans petition for it. Congress makes Puerto Ricans citizens without naturalization for now (1922). Congress will undertake incorporation deliberately, not … mere inference.
In the 1950s, on petition from the PR legislature, Congress offered and the Puerto Rican people accepted by referendum, 48 USC § 737 - Privileges and immunities "The rights, privileges, and immunities of citizens of the United States shall be respected in Puerto Rico to the same extent as though Puerto Rico were a State of the Union and subject to the provisions of paragraph 1 of section 2 of article IV of the Constitution of the United States." TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 13:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I restored a recently deleted tax breakdown by burden and effective rate with updated numbers (not sure how long the original version had been here or who wrote it), and started this discussion section in case anyone had comments, questions, or problems with it. I also expanded it per TVH’s suggestion to describe and distinguish between federal income, payroll, and state/local taxes, and cited key numbers to illustrate these differences. Another editor requested that I included a mention of the top 1%, so I did. For federal burden share I used the latest CBO numbers I could find (2009, published in 2012), and for federal effective rates I used the most recent Tax Policy Center numbers (so there’d be something more recent than 2009 in the paragraph). State/local numbers are difficult to come by and therefore dicey, so I didn’t explicitly cite them, but every calculation I’ve seen shows that taxation remains at least somewhat progressive even when state/local taxes are added to the mix. Even the aggressively left wing CTJ/ITEP (CTJ is the outfit’s lobbying arm) admits that total federal/state/local taxation is “barely progressive”, and it uses a fatally flawed methodology that significantly understates high earners’ federal rate (among other criticisms) as compared to the CBO and (also liberal leaning) Tax Policy Center. The latter two groups have slightly differing methodologies but show very similar results in overlapping years. VictorD7 ( talk) 19:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
THe United States is no longer the sole superpower. This is a misleading blanket statement. If this refers to military power, 9 nations now possess nuclear weapons, and that number will only increase. If this refers to economic power, the recent recession smashed any possibility of that. I guess this could be referring to some kind of cultural power, but superpower generally isn't used that way. Unless someone comes out with reasons not to change this, I'm going to modify the statement. Rwenonah ( talk) 22:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
A couple sources: Shifting Superpowers:The New and Emerging Relationship Betweeen the United States, China, and India( http://books.google.ca/books?id=t1SKkwWJnYkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=superpowers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kf1dUbHJKer1ygGg74DACw&ved=0CFsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=superpowers&f=false)
From Superpower to Beisieged Global Power:( http://books.google.ca/books?id=iaTnm48GW-cC&pg=PR19&dq=united+states+not+superpower&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YgBeUbL3IeLRyAG3h4DABg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=united%20states%20not%20superpower&f=false)
Rwenonah ( talk) 22:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Steven Rosefielde, Cambridge University Press, 2004
New York Times by Ronald Steel professor of international relations August 24, 2008 (Superpower Reborn)
The Globalist – June 2, 2010 cite: “An Insecure Foothold for the United States; Russia is certainly still a superpower comparable only to the United States” - http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=8498
"Russia the Best of the BRICs" – AG Metal Miner News by Stuart Burns – Sept 19, 2010
"The Dangers of Nuclear Disarmament" – Project-Syndicate News by Sergei Karaganov – April 29, 2010
Netanyahu declares Russia as superpower- Russia Today News 15 Feb 2010
Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez recognizes independence of breakaway Georgia republics by Megan K. Stack. Sept 9, 2009- http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/11/world/fg-russia-chavez11
Washington Acknowledges Russia as a Superpower -Daniel Fried, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs by Kommersant News May 26, 2007
Rwenonah ( talk) 19:41, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
US will lose global financial superpower status: German FM: The Hindu, September 25, 2008: http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200809252054.htm
− U.S. 'superpower' status slides in world's eyes, by Eoin Callan, Financial Post,
− 9/25/2008: http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=838634
− TOPWRAP 15-U.S. bailout in chaos, government seizes Washington Mutual, Sept 26, 2008, Guardian News and Media Limited,
− http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7826065
− US slipping as financial superpower, Businessweek By PATRICK McGROARTY Sept. 25, 2008, http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D93DP05O0.htm
− US ‘will lose financial superpower status’, By Bertrand Benoit in Berlin
− Sept. 25 2008, FT.com, http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1d6a4f3a-8aee-11dd-b634-0000779fd18c.html
− Germany says U.S. to lose superpower status, Xinhuanet, Sept 26, 2008,
− http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-09/26/content_10112504.htm
− U.S. Losing Finance Superpower Status, Germany Says (Update3), Bloomberg,
− By Leon Mangasarian, Sept. 25, 2008, http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=ahUuZ8Z5rkDA&refer=germany
− Financial Crisis: US will lose superpower status, crows Germany; Telegraph.co.uk, by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
− Sept 25, 2008, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3081909/Financial-Crisis-US-will-lose-superpower-status-crows-Germany.html
− Bush: ‘Our entire economy is in danger’ MSNBC by Associated Press, Sept 24, 2008, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26871338/?GT1=43001 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26871338/?GT1=43001
− Rwenonah ( talk) 22:44, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
The inclusion of the fact that its status as sole superpower may be in dispute is all I've really been attempting to do since the beginning. However, this is clearly quite controversial enough for it to have been discussed multiple times in the past. Perhaps we define controversial differently. You're right about taking this to to other articles,however. Rwenonah ( talk) 11:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
So I'm curious: What does any of arguing between TVH and TFD above have to do with this article? Honestly. I can barely read any of it, but what little penetrates my brain seems to be arguing over y'alls interpretation of a single source. What bearing does this argument have on the article? Instead of wasting space and time here, could you have your discussion elsewhere and get back to us if and when agreement springs out of it that is relevant to the article? I don't see how this has to even do with the territories argument anymore, it's simply arguing over whose interpretation of a single source is incorrect.
We would all be vastly better off if you both took a back seat for a while, because you are literally accomplishing nothing. There is no word for how much effort you two are wasting in this pointless endeavor. I would very much look forward to a formal RFM/RFC process, but only if you two were not permitted to infect it with your ramblings. -- Golbez ( talk) 20:10, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Three points. First, both of us are reading more deeply and carefully into our sources through discussion, sharpening our points of view. Second, although mistaken in this matter of including territories, Golbez, TFD and Mendaliv are three who are, by-and-large, well read and well intentioned. They can be sourced, reasonable and engaged, responding directly and intelligently to each turn in the discussion --- certainly for the most part, regardless of whatever way they may be mistaken at each turn.
Third, please let it be, that no one is required to join a discussion, but no discussion is to be ended unless editors violate WP procedural policy. On the other hand, please write a bot to block any post that begins, [Personal attack of choice], “all sources say” do not include islanders.
--- without a source. It’s like a pre-printed NRA Second-Amendment postcard to a Representative from the non-constituent. One admires the organizational effort at the mass mailing, but they are not worth the reading.
TheVirginiaHistorian (
talk)
12:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
There are four questions that present themselves to us:
These are four overlapping but distinct questions. It doesn't matter if we determine that they are incorporated if that doesn't mean they are part of the country; likewise, if we determine they are part of the country then their incorporation status is academic at best. Likewise, if we determine organization alone means they are part of the country then the incorporation argument becomes academic, but it also complicates matters with regard to American Samoa.
I want to touch on questions 1 and 3 in this post; 4 is complicated, and 2 will follow from the results of 1 and 3 I believe.
The insular cases from early in the 20th century established the incorporation dynamic. I'm going to start from square one on this as I have no interest in wading through the months of repetitive arguing, so I apologize in advance if I ask you to repeat something:
So far as I know, the answer to all three is no.
A third party source cannot change the makeup of a country. Period. No matter how many books we can find saying so, we cannot say that X is part of Y unless X says it is. The Republic of China claims the whole of its 1949 territory; this is fact. This cannot be changed by any book. Now, they control vastly less, but that does not change what they say they own. Likewise, no matter how many books you could find that say so, you can never say that Mongolia is part of the Republic of China, no matter how much they claim it. A book cannot incorporate land into a country, and a book cannot change how a country defines itself. Likewise, you might have been able to find books calling Iraq, West Berlin, Guantanamo Bay, or Okinawa an occupied colony of the United States but we would never consider saying it was part of the country.
Absent a statement from a higher court, the high executive, or Congress, the United States says that the territories are not part of the country. Also, absent a statement from those source, and in fact according to many lower sources in the government, the United States says the inhabited territories are unincorporated.
No third party source can contradict this. All they can do is elucidate it. We cannot rely upon third party analysis to contradict a first party's statement of themselves. It's like relying on third party work to call someone gay or Muslim when they say they are straight or Christian. We can make note of this analysis, but we can never portray it as a statement of fact. Likewise, we could say many sources say the territories are incorporated and/or part of the country, but absent a first party confirmation we simply cannot state it as a fact.
So please, if you have any link to an explicit overturning of the incorporation dynamic, or an explicit statement that the territories are part of the country, from the three government sources I list above, please give it.
Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, there is no evidence that any of the territories are incorporated, or that they are part of the country.
I await your responses. -- Golbez ( talk) 14:58, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Nope. The primary question should be:
Guam? US flag. Puerto Rico? US flag. Marianas? US flag. And so on. The parsing to a tendentious extent that "well it is not really part of the US" has gone on for far too long here to be looked at with a straight face any more at all. If an area's citizens hold US citizenship, the government is subject to courts established by Congress pursuant to the US Constitution, and the like - then trying to say anything other than it is "part of the United States" is absurd at this point. From the NorthWest Ordinance on, the concept of territories rationally being part of the US has been accepted law - and the Insular Cases are now moot as a result of government actions (yep - Acts of Congress can change the status of a territory). And the idea that a leasehold (vide Guantanamo) is a "territory", or that an area held as a result of treaty for a period of time after a war is a "territory" (The American Zone in Germany was never deemed a "territory of the US" by any source that I can find, and the status of the Ryukus was never that of a "territory of the US" but was under UN Trusteeship per the San Francisco Treaty [9] ) is similarly absurd and irrelevant to any of this. Collect ( talk) 19:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
You seems unclear on the concept of sovereignty. Collect has laid out an understandable and reasonable explanation which improves the article. We don't need and can't use primary government sources as you request. Collect has this right. Capitalismojo ( talk) 02:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Response tvh #2. Sources. Primary sources are best used when supporting reliable secondary sources. They are satisfactory when no scholarship can be found. The quality of WP is not based on its editors alone, but on its sourced contributions. Tertiary sources are reluctantly used in the absence of secondary sources and when no direct quotes from primary sources can be found on the subject.
If reliable scholars, Chinese maintain PRC boundaries A-extent, and European show B-extent, then the narrative must account for both. The government’s published assertion in a country-article might take precedence in the narrative --- secondary taking precedence over primary, primary over tertiary --- then qualified in turn by the Chinese and European references. In any event, The de facto government’s representation of its geographical extent should not be summarily excluded. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 12:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Response tvh #3. Anachronistic error. The insular cases from early in the 20th century established the incorporation dynamic.
No, the incorporation dynamic was begun in the Articles Congress with the Northwest Territory, extended at the Louisiana Purchase, and complicated by judicial innovation in the Insular Cases without statutory precedence.
Insular Cases established ** territories were not states for tax and revenue purposes, and ** alien populations in acquired territories were not incorporated until Congress expressly did so incorporate persons as citizens as described in Court discussions of the US history of incorporation in a) 1783 Treaty territory, b) later acquired continental territory, and c) overseas territory. In the first sense, they are NOT overturned, in the second sense, they are superseded by statute [insert: federal statute] in all five organized territories by 1985. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 13:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
The Insular Cases and Sparrow substantiate the history of US territory incorporation for 200 years, that history is Not editor
madeup rules.
Further Lawson and Sloane assure us that the UN allows for individual nation-state constitutional practice, all the world need not conform to Great Britain. There is no counter-source. The questions asked are answered, you will not read the Insular Cases cited. There are more 'Include territory' answers from other sources, including government, but the key is to ensure a scholar gives a sourced basis for representing our understanding of the primary documents. Without scholarship, all descends to editor synthesis and original research.
These government primary and secondary sources are confirmed by Sparrow in a reliable scholarly source (Levinson and Sparrow 2005), Today the US includes the Pacific and Caribbean territories. There is no counter-source referring to the modern era territories other than what it says here in secondary government and scholarly sources -- organized territories are a part of the US. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 17:32, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
@ Golbez (i). DC was NOT unambiguously part of the domestic US federal republic, it was under direct governance by Congress, nothing passed by city council was made law until Congress made it so. Only in 1971 was DC home rule allowed DC local elections comparable to Puerto Rico. Bumper stickers read “DC the last colony”. In the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, the US was defined “domestically” only as states. A separate section followed after for territories and DC in the same section. You cannot be making up your own US history as we go along, Where do you get these factoids that are unsubstantiated in American historiography?
The Insular Cases context of domestic US versus alien, non-citizen islanders is like DC before they were trusted with electing a Member of Congress to join national councils. Islanders would be incorporated as citizens later by Congress when they had the "capacity" and "desire" to vote, serve on juries, convene a legislature and elect a Member of Congress. The Court would not do those things, Congress would; and Congress did for five organized territories by 1986: N. Marianas, Guam, Am. Samoa, US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico.
You ask for an "overturning" of the Court which said Congress would expressly grant privileges to people in territories, but there is none. We have sourced observation that by 1986, Congress included five territories in the US in accordance with its 200-year constitutional practice. The American people in Congress and the Territorial people in local legislature and referendum, mutually agreed to fundamental rights under the Constitution and Congress, citizenship, self-governance with a Member of Congress. But over 200 years, Congress has not created territories with privileges reserved for states.
All questions are answered by US constitutional practice. References to British Empire are irrelevant, nations may have dissimilar histories you are wrong to insist they cannot. Democratic federal republics are not monarchies, Puerto Rico is not 1607 Virginia. There is NO modern source to say “Modern era territories are not a part of the US” --- but there are more than twenty over the last 20 years to say that they ARE a part of the US, as cited, directly quoted and linked at Talk:United States and its archives. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
@ TFD. Incorporating territories in the history of the US federal republic has rewritten “the whole history of colonialism” by monarchies. As US territories are incorporated, besides fundamental rights, voluntary citizenship, and local autonomy, they are given representation in national councils by territorial Member of Congress, with floor debate.
Now in the modern era, territorial Members of Congress have privileges expanded over those of previously incorporated continental territories of the past --- expanded to voting in committees, senate conference, and House Committee of the Whole, staff funding, and military academy appointments. It makes no sense to say territories today with more privileges than those of the past have not achieved the same constitutional status as those before. Scholars demonstrate that modern territories have a constitutional status "equivalent to states", states are constitutionally incorporated. Territories have never had state-only privileges, those being reserved to states.
US Virgin Islands has a Member of Congress --- British Virgin Islands has no Member of Parliament. Colonial history is indeed rewritten with the arrival of a federal republic on history’s stage. For 200 years the United States (a) expands its territorial possessions, (b) administers them by appointed governors, (c) incorporates them in preparation for statehood, and (d) admits them states, by Congress, as described in the Insular Cases and American historiography. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:14, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Since the case determined that Puerto Rico was not part of the United States, your comment that it decided the territories were part of the U.S. is bizarre. Territories may or may not be part of the U.S. And no, D.C. was not incorporated in 1871. Instead, "to put at rest all doubts regarding the applicability of the Constitution to the District of Columbia, Congress...specifically extended the Constitution and laws of the United States to this District." It may have been that in 1820, when Marshall wrote the passage you quote, which was cited in Downes, the republic was composed of states and territories. The question is which territories are part of the republic and which are outside it. TFD ( talk) 16:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
@TFD you cite no source for the territory is incorporated at treaty. WP cannot be a source for WP. We both agree to the authority of Downes v. Bidwell. It says otherwise --- in good history consistent with American historiography by scholars previously cited. Eventual statehood does not make territorial incorporation before the fact, another chronological non-sequitur error on your part.
This is how it has been done in US constitutional practice for 200 years, as in the case of Louisiana Territory. ** Stage 1. Ratified Treaty brings possession Oct 20, 1803, ** Stage 2. administered by the President Oct 31, 1803, then ** Stage 3. citizenship and territorial self government had it been within the US "at the time the Constitution was framed" (Downes), the "legacy of the Northwest Territory" in preparation for statehood (Sparrow), --- makes "the territory of Orleans incorporated into the United States", Mar 2, 1805. ** First part of Louisiana Territory admitted to statehood as Louisiana Apr 30, 1812.
Incorporation of each modern territory is found following the constitutional practice of the US in the Congressional organic act for each territory with voluntary citizenship, self-government and a Member of Congress as though "it had been within the US at the time the Constitution was framed." (Downes), as previously provided for each modern territory. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 10:08, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
“Participation in national councils” in the “legacy of the Northwest Territory” requires a non-voting territorial Member of Congress. The closest to one-stop-shopping I could find in primary sources to nail down a date for four territories included in the US federal republic is TITLE 48—TERRITORIES AND INSULAR POSSESSIONS CHAPTER 16—DELEGATES TO CONGRESS, p. 169. Subchapter I. Guam and Virgin Islands, 1972. Subchapter II. American Samoa. 1978. Subchapter III. Northern Mariana Islands. 2008.
The fifth, Puerto Rico is complicated. I rely on a scholary source for the “legacy” preparation for statehood. It could not be before 1947, when Congress provided for the popular election of Puerto Rico’s governor. R. Sam Garrett at the Congressional Research Service Political Status of Puerto Rico 2011 said, “In 1950, Congress, the President, and the people of Puerto Rico began a process that led to the Puerto Rican constitution, which is in effect today.” (p.9) The Resident Commissioner elected in a Puerto Rican constitution by consent would be dated from 1952. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 15:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
@ Golbez Since 18 January, you have had, U.S. Dept. of State “Foreign Affairs Manual” Vol. 7 Consular Affairs 1121.4 Laws Governing Status of Persons Born in Outlying Possessions 1121.4-2. Under the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (p.5) Under the INA (effective December 24, 1952 to present), the definition of: (1) "United States," for nationality purposes, was expanded to add Guam; and, effective November 3, 1986, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (in addition to Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands). Persons born in these territories on or after December 24, 1952 acquire U.S. citizenship at birth on the same terms as persons born in other parts of the US; and
(2) "Outlying possessions of the United States" was restricted to American Samoa and Swains Island. U.S. citizenship could be acquired by birth in outlying possessions of parents, one of whom is a citizen of the US physically present in the US or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 16:48, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Page 35 of the book cited (Levinson and Sparrow 2005) is in the middle of “The first incorporation debate” chapter by Gary Lawson and Guy Seidman, the same Lawson of the Lawson and Sloane article (2009) I have quoted to advantage previously. On page 36 of your reference, it says, “the doctrine of the Insular Cases simply makes no sense.” Do we really want to go there?
Lawson and Siedman (2005) explain that the Insular Cases observed In 1901 islanders "were 'alien races, differing from us in customs, religion and laws" (p.36). But they are no longer "alien" on any of these counts. The Insular Cases simply showed the case in 1901, non-citizens are aliens to the nation, not a part of it. OR (a) Did you mean to take "alien" in the Insular Cases as unchanging racial identity into the 21st century after US citizenship, customs and laws have been mirrored, internalized and practiced for half-a-century? OR (b) Did you have a religious test in mind for the former Spanish colonies once holding an official Catholic state religion a century ago? Is not religion freely chosen in each generation by US custom? Did the Insular Cases say by constitutional law no islander can change his religion evermore without "express" consent of Congress in your view?
In Downes we have “citizenship was conferred, and the territory of Orleans was incorporated into the US to fulfill the requirements of the treaty, by placing it exactly in the position which it would have occupied had it been within the boundaries of the US as a territory at the time the Constitution was framed.” Downes v. Bidwell.
Exactly as within the Northwest Territory of 1789 meant as in Samoa and four other incorporated territories with US citizens today, (a) fundamental rights but not those yet granted by Congress, (b) a population mix of citizenship and non-citizen nationals, (c) a three-branch form of government, (d) a non-voting Member of Congress. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 11:34, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
"A part of the US" is related to US citizenship in a US organized state, district or territory. Downes v. Bidwell: “If immediately upon annexation citizens, their children, “savages or civilized” would have all rights of citizens, the consequences will be “extremely serious”. “It is doubtful if Congress would ever assent to the annexation of territory” conditional on immediate citizenship to aliens. In all these cases there is “an implied denial of the inhabitants to American citizenship until Congress by further action shall signify its assent thereto.” Therefore Puerto Rico in 1901 was unincorporated, though to be organized, and their alien children, “savages or civilized”, were NOT to be citizens UNTIL congress expressly gave them nationality in the US.
Congress expressly HAS made them so, as incorporation is of persons not places, not in possession but in preparation for statehood. That is the same standard of “incorporation” for Territories from Louisiana to Alaska. Puerto Ricans have agreed to voluntary citizenship since 1950s, established an organized US territory with self-government and elected a Member of Congress "exactly in the position" as a Northwest Territory at Constitutional ratification. Likewise with all modern era US territories, they are incorporated into the federal republic and a part of the US. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 09:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)