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What make this so important that it needs to be included in the introduction?
-- nyenyec ☎ 01:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
It should be mentioned how the effects of the treaty determined Hungarian foreign and military policy leading up to and including WW2. -- nyenyec ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
What does it have to do with the treaty of Trianon?
-- nyenyec ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The Kingdom of Hungary was indeed a real House of Terror for the non-Hungarian ethnic groups which resented heavily the occupation of their lands by colonial Hungarians and where permanently under the daily agression of the Magyarisation Laws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 ( talk) 08:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
As to the discussion about whether Trianon is considered as a national tragedy for Hungary or only for Hungarian nationalists, I can confirm the former. But to cite a neutral source, according to Loney Planet Hungary (by Steve Fallon, 2000): "Trianon became the singularly most hated word in Hungary, and the diktátum is often reviled today as if it were imposed on the nation only yesterday." Vay 13:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The Trianon Treaty was not a tragedy, but an act of justice and a liberation for everibody, except for the Hungarian right-wing nationalists. But, if actually the Treaty of Trianon is seen as a national falure by the mainstream of the Hungarian people, this fact would be a real tragedy for the entire Europe, because an entire people is still imperial and expansionist-minded. What is really the percent of the Hungarians which are against Trianon (expansionist-minded and right - wing extremists) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 ( talk) 08:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
PANONIAN insists on the fact that plebiscites were held in Alba Iulia and Novi Sad, reverting a version by HunTomy. According to a neutral (Croatian) source: "For this reason, it is surprising that the winning forces of the First World War did not adopt the principle of self-determination (which they themselves emphasized in the context of Wilson’s 11 Points) and conduct a plebiscite in Vojvodina." 1 According to a Romanian source, there was indeed a plebiscite in Alba Iulia: a plebiscite of all Romanians in Transylvania and Hungary, and later an other one in Cernauti: a plebiscite of all Romanians. 2. It is fair to tell that this was not a vote by all inhabitants of the territories concerned, the electorate having been the Romanian community. I will not revert to HunTomy's version, but wait for PANONIAN's sources. Vay 19:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
It's disgusting how extreme nationalists hustling here who say that there were plebiscites in the historical Hungary. There was some congresses where some extreme sepetarists declared something supperted by foreign powers. Abominable....
HunTomy 2006.01.19.
I wrote now that there were no plebiscites held in the "Hungarian majority areas", because it is why you object to this, right? But to say that there were no any plebiscites and that non-Hungarian peoples were separated from Hungary against their will is simply wrong. They did said what is their will. PANONIAN (talk) 17:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not naive. Who wants to live in a balcan level country? Transylvania became part of an Eastern Europen country, which is poor, undeveloped and corrupt. Vojvodina now belongs to the balcan. Very joyful. And i would not talk about the level of Subcarpathia (which is now belongs to Ukraine)... Endre Ady did not want to seperate from Hungary just wrote critics about the social system of the contemporary Hungary. Or you can read "És ha Erdélyt elveszik?" (And what will happen if they took Transylvania?) from Ady from 1912
And remember: the "magyarisation" was a natural process not dictatorial like romanians, czeckslovaks and yugoslavs did after 1920. This is a great difference... (This was added by 81.182.105.231 dsl51b669e7.pool.t-online.hu).
Haha you are so funny! Milanmm 14:50, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, Vojvodina "do not belong to the Balkans". As an native Vojvodinian I can tell you that Vojvodina is still in Central Europe where it always was, and present day Serbia is both, Balkanic and Central European country, as well as Serbs are both, Balkanic and Central European people. So, please do not teach me where I live, ok? PANONIAN (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Ask some people from the real central or western europe about serbia. Serbia is primarily balcanic. I know what is the balcanic character.
The question was about Vojvodina. The geographical, physical and natural region Balkans (one of Europe's 11 such regions) ends at the Sava river and at the Danube in Serbia, i.o.w. Vojvodina is not part of the Balkans. If we add a historical point of view, it is not part of the Balkans all the more. Juro 20:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
From the "real" Central Europe? And I live in the "false" one then, right? Please... As Juro explained, geographical borders of Balkans are clear. As for cultural borders of Balkans some people claim that those are same as the borders of the former Ottoman Empire in Europe, thus most of the neighbouring parts of Hungary, Romania, and Croatia are culturally Balkanic too, but that was not the point. PANONIAN (talk) 20:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is wrong to put "new Hungarian state" in the first paragraph since the state following the Trianon dictate was the same Kingdom of Hungary, albeit dismembered. Also, instead of a simple "agreement", I would insist to put "enforced agreement" since Hungary did not voluntarily renounce two thirds of its historical territory but the country signed the treaty under duress. 81.183.183.18 21:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
If the Kingdom of Hungary did not exist after the Compromise, what did the acronym k.u.k refer to? (just a brief question...). The truth is, the Kingdom of Hungary had retained its existence since St. Stephen's coronation, even the Austrian emperors ruled the country as Hungarian kings (they had to be crowned by St. Stephen's Holy Crown in order to be considered legal rulers). Thus Hungary was not a hereditary province of Austria, but as an independent kingdom, part of the Habsburg Empire. (As opposed to like Slovakia, which name is always used by Slovak nationalists for the medieval history of Northern Hungary, it never existed as a separate administrative entity, it was always an integral part of the Kingdom of Hungary.) 84.2.101.172 12:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting that Hungarians themselves claimed in 1918/1919 that their new independent state have no continuity with the Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary, and therefor their new state was not a kingdom, but REPUBLIC ( Hungarian Democratic Republic and Hungarian Soviet Republic after it). Problem is that Hungarians in that time did not know what will be the borders of their new independent state. When borders of independent Hungary were defined in 1920, Hungarian nationalists who were not satisfied with these borders changed the story about the continuity and now claimed that Hungary have continuity with the former kingdom (the country was even officially named kingdom again, no matter that it did not had a king, but only regent). Thus, the whole story about continuity is a story about "right" to territories outside of the Hungarian borders, and its purpose is to justify border changes in favor of Hungary. Of course, the real question is why now in the 21st century somebody have need to talk about continuity of Hungary. Just imagine how would look if somebody would start talking about continuity of France or continuity of United Kingdom. PANONIAN (talk) 00:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with continuity, since in 1918/1919, for a brief period, Hungary was a republic and a Soviet republic, so obviously, they rejected any kind of continuity with the old kingdom (the Communists even went as far as renouncing their claim to Hungarian territorial integrity, however it is true that later on, Béla Kun's army beat the crap out of the Czechs and nearly liberated Felvidék, but this is off topic). As soon as legitimacy was restored in the name of the Holy Crown, continuity was restored, as well. Enigma1 22:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Apart from continuity, a section detailing the economic and cultural consequences of the Trianon Dictate would be most welcome, describing that the main driving force behind the treaty was to disempower a united, and highly prosperous economic region by dissolving the historical Hungary into more backward puppet states. Also, a forced and systematic destruction of Hungarian cultural instututions (schools, theaters, universities - like in Pozsony and Kolozsvár), mass expulsion and deportation of Hungarians should be documented objectively.
Enigma1 22:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The country was NOT a prosperous region, it was a very backward country, especially Hungary. People were leaving the country in masses (hundreds of thousands). So, read a book of fairy tales or something and let normal people do their work, OK ? Juro 06:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
You don't like the truth very much now, do you? Yes, there was mass emigration to America (mostly from poverty-ridden areas which were mostly inhabited by Rusyns or - incidentally - Slovaks) but the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and Hungary as a whole underwent its most prosperous growth period in the area, much of the current infrastructure (roads, railways, does the Kassa-Oderberg railway ring a bell?) was built in that period. But even after the dissolution of the Monarchy, Hungary always remained much more prosperous and westernized than the successor states. Take Czechoslovakia for instance in which the so-called "state-forming" nations were much less advanced than the "subjugated" Germans and Hungarians. 81.182.209.170 20:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello PANONIAN (talk)! I think these borders became international borders by signing of the Treaty of Trianon by all sides. There were a lot of military movement in the region after November 1918 and I don't think, that you would accept that the border of Romania was in the middle of Budapest. I agree however, that there were only little clashes with the Serbian Army after December 1918 and the Serbian occupation zone existed as Serbian territory in this period (incuding today's South Hungary). The fully recognized international borders of Hungary were set by the Treaty of Trianon.
kelenbp 13:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The sentence "Many Hungarians consider the treaty a national tragedy still today." is correct. I can't find any sources right now asserting this, but in fact if you google for "Trianon" and see the bulk quantity of heated discussions in Hungarian going on on various sites, that should be proof enough. K issL 07:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes for Hungarians Treaty of Trianon is tragedy but for Slovaks thats Victory in independence from that time hatefull empire called Hungary of whatever Yes its our history and We are Independent now. As I been reading that we was last developed region in Hungary..Yes its true Hungary was bad master for as Slovaks... User:Marek.kvackaj 23:32, 9 october 2006 (UTC)
You had a new state, but it did not function, because it had most economic ties to Great Hungary! You had a vast land, full of minority! Didn't you think you got too much? Hungary didn't start any wars, Austrians did! I respect you achieved independence, but you got too much land, you should have reality sense, even today.
As a matter of fact, the Magyar government was keen on war (though Tisza was against it). But in any case, the Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy couldn't have survived without a victorious war. This was not one. As to being bad masters, it is true, that around 1890s there was a wide-scale Hungarinisation (magyarosítási) campaign in Hungary. The mad Hungarian elite was sawing the branch of the tree on which they sat. Nevertheless, many Hungarian did feel that Trianon was a national tragedy (which, of course, was not). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 13:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Speaking about Trianon only the 1920 official census numbers matter not before or later ten years, although the 1930 and 1941 censuses are mentioned to indicate the process of slow decline until WW2. This is not a place for Czechoslovakian propaganda numbers which lack any official census background. In Hungarian sources I didn't find any distinction in the 1920 census like Slovak or "Slovak-speaking" so present any evidence that these higher numbers were part of the 1920 official census and not a Czechoslovakian claim. Zello 19:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
And did you find them for 1910 (e.g.)? Because it is very difficult to find such detailed data in full - I myself found them (for 1910) only by coincidence. Secondly, it is interesting that you call Hungarian figures "Czechoslovak propaganda numbers" as soon as you do not like them. (If I added real "propaganda" numbers the whole list would be even much worse for you) Finally, I have given the source; and after all, I can even delete the Czechoslovak estimate, the Hungarian numbers are quite enough. Juro 19:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah, yes, and as for your notice board remark regarding the "slow decline": 1920: 145 000 Slovaks vs. 1930: 100 000 Slovaks [using your (wrong) numbers] - do you call this a "slow" decline??? I got used to Hungarian propaganda in the meantime, but this cannot be even qualified as an exaggeration. Juro 19:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The "wrong" numbers are from Romsics' book about Hungary in the 20th century. He says that these numbers show the the minorities according to the MOTHER-LANGUAGE data of the 1920 census. So where are your higher numbers from és what they mean? Zello 19:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The whole population of Hungary increased between 1920 and 1930 so higher numbers are natural for minorities. There is no reason to use misleading 1930 data for 1920 when we have an official census in 1920.
Zello 19:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Juro, the total population of Hungary was 7,9 million in 1920, 8,6 million in 1930 and 9,3 million in 1941 (without regained territories). This is a rapid increase in absolute numbers so highly misleading to use 1930 data for 1920. It is possible that the situation was different with the different nationalities ie. probably Germans increased in absolute numbers and Slovaks decreased, I don't know. But the only possible way to establish post-Trianon data is to use the 1920 census numbers and mention in brackets your claim that "the official Hungarian statistical data from 1920 say that 399,170 citizens speak [speak well/have a good command - difficult to translate] of the Slovak language" together with the citation. Although I don't understand at all - if the 1920 census numbers show "mother-language" as Romsics said what is this 400 000? Probably there were another question for second language knowledge or I don't know. Zello 05:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
You will not believe me, but I perfectly understand what you mean (the first thing I looked at was the 7.9 vs. 8.6 difference). I will try to divide this into several points:
Juro 18:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I also understand your point but I think the distinction wasn't between "true" Slovaks and "untrue" Slovaks but Slovaks by mother tongue/most frequently spoken language and Slovaks by national identity. The first should be the higher number because in the post-Trianon atmosphere it wasn't very popular to declare yourself Slovak although the language remained. There are other reasons mostly the process of assimiliation, merging of Hungarian (citizen) identity with Magyar identity etc.
But you are right: the only way to decide in the numbers is to look up more data. The National Library is open yet (until 1 August) so I will go there in Saturday and try to collect every information we need from the 1920 and 1930 census publications together with exact questions. Zello 14:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I went to the National Library and found the census data at last.
There were the same two questions in 1920 and 1930:
There was no question about nationality in Hungarian censi until 1941.
The second question was about bilingualism and produced much higher data for minorities as the first one (of course the same is true for the Magyar language - it was mother language for 7'147'053 people in 1920 and was spoken by 7'722'441 people at the same time).
It is true that the percentage, the absolute numbers and even bilingualism was decreasing in the next decade. I have the same data for 1930 and all numbers are lower.
There is no way to establish the number of minorities from the second question. That question only shows how much people were able to speak Slovak. Among them certainly were people whose parents or grandparents spoke Slovak as a mother language but the family began assimilation. But there were people also who lived together with Slovaks and were able to express themselves on the language of their neighbours. It is the same as many Slovaks in present-day Komárno and Csallóköz speak some Hungarian but they are not Magyars at all. The high number of German speakers is obviosly a cultural phenomenon as German was widely taught in Hungarian secondary schools (ie. the same as the high number of English speakers now). We are not able to separate these two groups among the bilinguals in lack of other data. The problem wasn't raised by me but demographic historian József Kovacsics who presented the census data. Zello 18:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Does that mean that the second question (if it really went exactly like you are presenting it here - you probably mean "speak" not "spoke") resulted in data like "xy speak French", "xy speak English" etc., or what? This is very strange for a population census, if this was really the whole question without any additions. I can hardly imagine that the results contain the numbers of e.g. English speakers, but they should then... And as for Slovaks, the situation was different in 1910, there were no Slovak schools whatsoever anymore and it is impossible that there were 150 000 Slovaks, but also 150 000 (!) Magyars (unless they have at least a Slovak parent) speaking that language just because they are their neighbours, especially given that in 1910 the use of the language in the public was sanctioned (although officially not, of course). Such numbers - i.e. resulting only from "neigbourship" - would be impossible even in present-day Finland or so. Juro 19:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there are English-speakers, French-speakers, Italian-speakers also (with smaller numbers as these languages were only spoken by the elite). As for the Slovaks there can be different groups among this plus 250 000 people:
I'm sure that the most populous of this groups were people with Slovak ancestry but 1, nobody knows their number; 2, they declared themselves that their mother language was already Magyar that time. Zello 20:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not able to insert my references but here are:
Zello 20:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean by "unable to insert" ??? Juro 03:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Although I see in the history section that you gave your reference but I don't see it in the article. But why? Zello 12:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Because I deleted it yesterday :)) (it is not used in the article anymore as a source). Juro 18:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- - - -
The sum total (10.4%) with a non-Magyar mother tongue, does not equal the individual percentages listed in the article, the sum of which is only 9.0%. I suspect the percentage figure for German should be higher. I cannot tell if it is the total that's wrong or the individual figures. Could someone check? The following is the current text in the article:
According to the 1920 census 10.4 % of the population spoke one of the minority languages as mother language:
- 551,211 German (6.9%)
- 141,882 Slovak (1.8%)
- 23,760 Romanian (0.3%)
- 36,858 Croatian (0.5%)
- 17,131 Serb (0.2%)
- 23,228 other Southern Slavic dialects, mainly Bunjevac and Šokac (0.3%)
Bardwell 17:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The article is full of them:
etc. bogdan 15:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
It's well accepted the idea that Austria-Hungary became a second-class country. Indeed Austria-Hungary also experienced economic progress especially in the late 19th century (without relying on colonization), but remained a European country with a relatively underdeveloped economy, a second-class regional power. Can one argue that is not true? -- Eliade 07:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely agree - this is why I deleted the sentence with my revert together with the other problematic new paragraph inserted by Giordano. Zello 18:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
There were big differences in the economic development of the countries and provinces of Austria-Hungary. We are speaking about a country which was so varied that contained Tyrol and Bukovina. These differences were several hundred years old and products of totally different historical development. The Monarchy as an integrated econimic unit had a positive effect on the underdeveloped provinces in the second half of 19th century. There was a process of regional integration and economic development which was broken by WW1. As for second-class country - Austria-Hungary was traditionally a member of the "European concert", one of the main powers of the continent because of it size and military strength. Tsarist Russia was more underdeveloped than Austria-Hungary but wasn't considered a second-class country at all. Zello 17:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Austria-Hungary was the successor of the Habsburg Empire which existed in Europe almost 500 years. That's not some decades. Zello 18:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Every solution is "temporary" because every country disappear sooner or later. The Habsburg Empire with its 500 years lifetime certainly existed long enough to shape the history of Europe. Zello 16:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
It may also be worthwhile to enter into the analysis that today many of the successor states are economic disasters. The only consistent exception to this is Austria (and even that only after WWII). Slovenia has been successful for the last decade, if this tendency keeps up, all the better, on the other hand Transylvania nowadays is much more below the European average than it was during Habsburg times, it is hardly above the Third World. One has to wonder whether the purpose of the treaty was to create a new Dark Ages. And as far as Juro's comment: no, Czechoslovakia was never an economic superpower. The Czech side was reasonably industrialized, and this had some benefits, but to consider CS among the world's strongest economies is a severe overstatement. (Have you driven a Skoda before it became VW?)
The A-H was a regional superpower with a reasonable economic status. It was not behind the "West" economically: the situation of those who emigrated to the US was hardly better after emigration, since they usually fell for the "in America the streets are paved with gold" myth. It is also questionable in the case of Fiume, Istria, Friuli, Trieste whether they were better off during the monarchy than afterwards. Considering ethnic strife certainly not.
At last: to suggest ethnic bias or racism is not inappropriate nor is it POV. After all the article itself states that Sopron was the only place allowed to have a plebiscite (this fact renders the censuses made after the treaty somewhat questionable, since the new countries forced its citizens to take loyalty oaths: for example the family of the writer Hamvas refused to take the Slovak nationality oath, and were for this reason expelled from Slovakia). Giordano Giordani 09:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Giordano XY, the best answer to your edits and comments is that they are just a big mess and collection of nonsense. What Panonian says is very trivial and clear to everybody from Central Europe, but obviously someone has to tell you that explicitely. As for Czechoslovakia, if you need a number it was among the 10 most advanced countries in the whole world between the two world wars. And we could go on like this endlessly. So just do no try to invent associations where there are no associations. A treaty is not responsible for the history of the 20th century. Juro 15:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
If a sub-chapter on the nationalities of post-Trianon Hungary is included, a similar sub-chapter should detail the history of the Hungarian minorities in the successor states. Árpád 08:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Jesus, like always with you: every single sentence you are saying is a lie - in other words it is so wrong that actually the exact opposite holds (current Hungarian "folk" is mostly derived from the lokal Slavic folk and not vice versa etc. etc.). Irrespective of this: Like always, you have written a typical irrational long fascist hypernational elaborate here that is completeley unrelated to the very technical topic at hand. But even if you wrote a poem, that does not change the fact that what you have been trying to deny above holds because these are pure numbers and logics. You can equally claim that the Earth is plane, that is the same. And like always: Any further such lies will be deleted by me, if this wikipedia and other Hungarian users are unable to cope with you, this is the only way how to prevent the spread of fascism and idiotism in this wikipedia. Juro 12:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
While I can't find a single statement of Árpád that I would back up myself, I'm puzzled as to how he is either fascist, or a vandal. There exist established ways on Wikipedia to deal with irrational claims, or even trolling. Further reading at WP:NPA, WP:DFTT, and WP:CIVIL. Please. K issL 14:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
See the comment on my talk page. And Arpad is only one of his 100 accounts (e,g, HunTomy), so you do not know the history, qnd I have removed all his explicit insults from the talk pages, therefore I cannot find them (I should have collected them). And I am happy that finally someone has noticed the problem he poses here. And as for being fascist - he turns any issue here into the "divine Hungarians" - "primitive Hungarian neigbours" issue and does not even try to hide that. Read the above discussion - what do folk songs have to do with the economy of A-H??? That is pure fascism. Juro 16:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC) P.S.: And most importantly, he is a permanent lier, the only way of reaction to his "contributions" is to say that every sentence is a lie. He also quite openly tries by seemingly "disussing" to place his long chauvinist views on the talk pages of the wikipedia in order to increase their hits in google and I will not allow that (when others do not see that, I see that). Juro 16:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
FUNDAMENTALLY THE PROPOSAL OF ARPAD IS APPOSITE: IF THERE IS A SECTION ON TREATMENT OF MINORITIES IN HUNGARY IT IS ONLY FAIR THAT THERE IS ONE ON THE TREATMENT OF HUNGARIANS IN SLOVAKIA, ROMANIA, ETC.
This should be the main point of the discussion, not personal attacks (like calling someone "liar", or "fascist vandal", etc.). This way of arguing is extremely primitive. Alphysikist 08:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yikes! I'm very hesitant to enter such a heated discussion as I do not want to get flamed, but as folk music (one of my favorite subjects!) has entered the discussion I feel I may have something to contribute. As near as I can figure out from Árpád's strange post at the beginning of this section, he seems to be practically denying the existence of the Slovak nation by pointing out that Slovak folk music sounds just like Hungarian folk music.....well, actually, Slovak folk music DOESN'T sound exactly like Hungarian folk music. There are definite close similarities--the pentatonic scale, frequent use of the fifth at the cadence, sometimes they use the old Magyar pattern of repeating a phrase a third or fourth higher, etc. But, despite the close similarities, there are differences as well, mainly rhythmic (due to the great difference between Magyar and Slavic languages!) and also melodic. (Read Kodály Zoltán's book Folk Music of Hungary--it's excellent!) But jeez, similarities in folk music doesn't mean the Slovaks don't exist as a nation, or whatever you were driving at. It just means that the Slovaks and Magyars have lived right next to each other for centuries. People move around, they meet strangers, swap tall tales, folklore, and especially exchange tunes! I would also here point out that not ALL Slovak music even sounds Hungarian. A lot of it is very much more "Slavic-sounding", more like the music of their other neighbors the Czechs, but it too is its own music. Please, as annoyed as you may be by the ongoing political mess between Hungary and Slovakia, please don't try to claim there really are no Slovaks, especially not on the basis of folk music... :)
With hopes for friendship between peoples,
K. Lastochka 05:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I see you have already been involved in at least one 3RR. State which part of my contribution (16:30, September 4, 2006) you think is not factual or not encyclopedic or disputable before erasing again. I will be happy to discuss it here.
Yours, with all my love,
Bardwell 21:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear PANONIAN, I think you are mistaken. But to err is human and I forgive you. If you would care to check facts, undisputable facts, you would see that Hungary was not only uninvited to the conferences where the Treaty was decided but she wasn't even allowed to present her case. This DOES mean that the Treaty WAS imposed on her. The fact that she signed it is irrelevant - in the circumstances of the time she had no other option. Not signing the treaty was not a realistic option. I see you are quick to apply 3RR and to make threats. This is quite uncalled for and it demonstrates an aptitude for the kind of tragic ethnic hate witnessed so recently between Serbs and their neighbour states. This here is a forum where you can use reasoned arguments to make your case. Have you ever read the Treaty? I have. Have you ever researched the circumstances and the actual conduct of the conferences? I have. Have you provided sources? I have. You can check them. In particular, I would refer you to Professor Macartney's work October Fifteenth. Read chapter one, pages 3 -24. Macartney was a well-respected expert on the subject; a research fellow at All Souls College, Oxford. He was English (probably Scottish if you wish me to be pedantic). You can hardly accuse him of being 'nationalistic' in the context we are discussing.
With best wishes to you and good reading, your fellow wikipedian:
Bardwell 00:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
My dear PANONIAN, If your other contributions to Wikipedia are as accurate and well-informed as this one:
then, I’m afraid they are all equally worthless. I have no idea whatsoever who user 195.56.249.131 is. It certainly isn’t me. You have my permission to ask the powers that be at wikipedia to confirm or deny whether my ISP has any connection with 195.56.249.131. Take the challenge! If you or wikipedia can show a link, I’ll pay you £100,000. I am not even asking you to pay me a penny if you lose the challenge. It would be immoral of me to take your money on a challenge I know for sure you can only lose. Your allegation is completely and totally baseless. Why do you do it?
Bardwell 04:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore: For precise reference to terminology of "imposed on Hungary" see: The Oxford Dictionary of 20th Century History 1914-1990. Oxford University Press (1992)
ISBN
0192116762, page 470, which reads:
For a precise definition of the meaning of the word cede, I am quoting from The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (1933) 3rd Rev. ed. (1965) [No ISBN]
Bardwell 09:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
For the record!
If a definition is good enough for inclusion in an internationally and academically respected publication issued by one of the world’s most respected university printing presses then I dare say it is sufficiently clean and authoritative for inclusion in a wikipedia article. I have reinserted the following reference, and will keep on doing so because I do not believe in appeasing bullies.
Bardwell 16:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
And what happens when some "internationally and academically respected publications issued by one of the world’s most respected university printing presses" happen to contradict each other? K issL 18:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Then it is proper to include at least both viewpoints. The Mitterrand quote lends further support to the viewpoint advocated by myself and user
Bardwell. It may also be that these views are underrepresented, since it was the winning powers who imposed the Trianon dictats on the people of the Carpathian basin, and they (that is to say their media, press, etc.) are less likely to question the rational of the "treaty" for a variety of reasons. Considering these circumstances, the fact that our viewpoints are supported it is all the more reason to include them in the article.
Giordano Giordani 23:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The treaty was imposed upon Hungary that's a fact. Even by common sense: does anybody think that Hungary would accepted the loss of two-thirds of its territory without utmost constraint? Would any country in the the world ever made such an "agreement"? The Treaty of Trianon was a dictate, and Hungary hadn't got any other choice. There was no army, the economy was ruined, big parts of the country were still under occuptation. If Hungary wouldn't signed the treaty other regions would be annexed by Romania and Serbia. Agreements are made by two willing parties. The Treaty of Trianon wasn't an agreement but a total surrender of a collapsed country. Zello 01:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Right, "agreement" was a bit of an euphemism. However, for the definition of the lead, I still prefer not to have any words that can be considered emotive. Any interested reader will have enough understanding to know anyway that peace treaties usually contain the winners' will. K issL 09:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Kiss1, - It is a fuzzy editorial assumption that the reader of an encyclopedic article will have any prior knowledge or understanding of the subject of an article for them to realise that peace treaties " usually contain the winners' will ". In any case, why do you think it is wrong to state it? And on another note altogether - what kind of a justification is there to repeatedly remove source references, as you have done with the ref. to OUP Dict. of 20C History, when it is a clear wiki policy to encourage, nay, to specifically request, the provision of references.
Bardwell 09:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think other points-of-view shold be explained in text, not in the lead. Zello 10:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Even the very best dictionary is sort of irrelevant as a reference about a peace treaty. K issL 10:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Kiss1 – You appear to be justifying repeated deletes of a definition from a specialist historical dictionary as “sort of irrelevant as a reference to a peace treaty.” Isn’t your justification a little fuzzy? Isn’t your justification a personal point of view in itself and as such clearly not a sufficient reason to delete another editor's reference? However, sat asside, would you be happier with a more authorative source? How about the Encyclopaedia Britannica? Would you accept that as a reasonable source? Here are a couple of relevant citations from the Fifteenth Edition, Rev. (2002) [ ISBN 0-85229-787-4]:
There is, of course, more, much more and in much more severe languages, but all I am trying to demonstrate is that
Bardwell 14:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
"Unrightful" depends on the reader's definition of what is right, and therefore, once you insert this word into any article, you've violated WP:NPOV, and most importantly, the rule of thumb " Let the facts speak for themselves". K issL 10:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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Panonian, your sentence “(LOL Bardwell, you even do not trying to hide the fact that you are same person with Milanmm)” is not English! It isn’t even bad English, it is nonsense. You obviously cannot write in English. I am now wondering if you can read English? If you can, please read my reasons for the changes to the lead paragraph. You can find them below.
With lots of love,
Bardwell 18:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
You are riding on the issue out of context. The fact is that without the entente, Horthy would have never got in power, the few hundred Hungarian drunkard gentry around him would have been easily beaten by sticks by a few strong steelworkers. Signing the treaty was an exchange for this. From 1919, he hoped that for his stringent anti-communism he would have got territorial compensation from the entente (Horthy's memoirs). The fact remains that until Horthy, Hungary resisted the treaty diplomatically (Károlyi's govenment, and to some extent the Council Republic) and militarily (the Council Republic), thus it was forced upon Hungary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the Mitterrand quote is an interesting one, but it doesn't say a word about this treaty specifically, so it's better to keep it out of here, at least until there is a very comprehensive and very NPOV description of why and how Hungarians consider the treaty unjust (which is unlikely to happen too soon with all the disruptive nationalist behavior around the article, meaning all "sides" not just one). In such a situation, even if it could be fair to mention some details in the lead, a short NPOV version is better than anything.
As for "ceded", the connotations for this word are clearly not as neutral and non-emotive as the formulation originally in the article. Let's not start comparing the world's web-based dictionaries for a point as simple as that. What's wrong with the current version?
K issL 14:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The Treaty of Trianon dealt specifically with issues relating to Hungary. This is evidenced by the very title of the treaty: " Treaty of Peace Between The Allied and Associated Powers and Hungary ” ( see: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/versa/tri1.htm).
From an editorial point of view this wiki article on the Treaty of Trianon should, I think, deal only with the treaty and not with claims, arguments, explanations, etc., relating to extraneous ethnic and territorial issues, which it would be more appropriate to list under other headings in the wiki system, especially as they tend to be divisive.
The Treaty of Trianon is in itself clearly defined under XIV parts, as follows:
From a logical editorial perspective, these are the only sections that should populate the article. The article should be void of all personal interpretations and opinions. One should bear in mind that the article is an encyclopaedic entry. It is not supposed to be a vehicle for opinions. One cannot be more accurate or more neutral than by quoting the original document without extraneous embroidery. With this in mind it is my intention to reformat the Treaty of Trianon article in conformity with the above because I firmly believe that this would conform totally and indisputably with wikipedia objectives to provide accurate and unbiased information.
I hereby invite anyone interested in this subject to state their views with regards to whether they consider this approach to be sufficient and fair to resolve differences of opinion about what the Treaty of Trianon was.
Bardwell 10:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
We don't simply publish sources but write an encyclopaedia, even it is difficult sometimes. That's not the right way to reach neutrality. Zello 19:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
nyenyec and
zello:
Thanks for your comments.
I think your points are valid. The problem I see with the current version has primarily to do with the inadequacy of the leadeer and with the determination of some parties to stick to wishy-washy weasel definition in order to obscure the fact that this agreement was a clear case of victors imposing their terms on the vanquished. Not for nothing is there a fair warning above the leading article cautioning readers about this. If you have been following the various reverts and erasures and the arguments over the past few days then no doubt you would be aware that some parties here object to and erase words such as ‘imposed’ and ‘ceded’ in favour of alternatives that do not convey to the casual reader the true and generally accepted and acknowledged fact that the treaty was imposed on Hungary. I find this quite incomprehensible as this terminology is in no way derogatory to any of the successor states. Some users have even gone as far as to repeatedly eradicate reference to a book from a highly-respected academic institution just because it has the ‘temerity’ to define the treaty as “imposed on Hungary”. Precisely in order to sidestep this zealous opposition by some parties to calling a spade a spade, have I come up with the suggestion that by confining the article to undeniable facts, i.e. to the actual provisions of the treaty itself, it should be possible to get rid of weasel words and of ambiguity and to have that warning banner removed from the top and to bring an end to the bickering.
Looking at the
Treaty of Versailles article, which is the natural twin for the Treaty of Trianon, one can see the phrase “ Terms imposed on Germany …” etc. and I fail to see why this terminology should be objected to so vehemently in the Trianon article. I would be interested to hear users’ views on whether the Treaty of Versailles article could be or should be used as a model for Trianon.
Bardwell 22:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe Bardwell's opinions (and the like) are stand-outs here with regards to intelligent and rational thought, and they display a notable lack of extremist opinion, which this talkpage is sadly littered with. Therefore it is no surprise to me that this view and proposal is being attacked. I concur with Bardwell. Hunor-Koppany
See this map: http://terkepek.adatbank.transindex.ro/kepek/netre/169.gif According to the map, a small part of KOH was also included into Poland. I think this should be noted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Trianon#Frontiers_of_Hungary However, I do not know when exactly this area was included into Poland. Does somebody have more information about this? PANONIAN (talk) 21:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The small territory is still in Poland. The northern parts of Árva (Orava) and Szepes (Spis) counties with polish majority population was annexed by Poland, as I know, by the decision of an arbitration comitee in 1920. You can find a detailed map under: http://terkeptar.transindex.ro/legbelso.php3?nev=165 After the Munich conference in 1938 Poland annexed more Polish inhabited territories along the Slovak-Polish border. After the German attack against Poland in 1939, Slovakia regained those territories. -- Kelenbp 17:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi everybody.
I am really tired from fights here. Each my contribution is simply ignored. People are all the time reverting to their version without a discussion. I was even accused to be somebode else, what is ridiculus.
I propose to build the article from the beginning. Everybody can say his opinion about each part and we will try to find a version that everybody will agree with. I do not want to find a version that majority agrees with, but everybody agrees with. Let's base everything on facts. In this way any "puppet" would be useless.
Mentioning your nationality would help to see somebody else's point. I am Slovak.
OK, I would start with the beginning. 1) "The Treaty of Trianon was a peace treaty that regulated the situation of the new Hungarian state" - this is only partially true as the treaty regulated the situation of all succesor countries (see for example: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/versa/tri3.htm "Each of the States to which territory of the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy is transferred, and each of the States arising from the dismemberment of that Monarchy, including Hungary, shall assume responsibility for a portion of the unsecured bonded debt of the former Hungarian Government as it stood on July 28, 1914, calculated on the basis of the ratio between the average for the three financial years....."
2) "new Hungarian state that replaced the Kingdom of Hungary" - not only thenew Hungarian state that replaced the Kingdom of Hungary
3) "winning powers, their allied countries, and the losing side" - the losing country was Austria-Hungary, not Hungary - so this is not correct, Austro-Hungarian monarchy was not represented by Hungary
Milanmm 15:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
How about a version like this? I've tried to fix the problems you pointed out:
Something like that. I know it's far from perfect, this is why I'm not putting it into the article directly – feel free to improve or criticise it. K issL ( don't forget to vote!) 20:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
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I cannot understand the attraction of wanting to bowdlerize the wording of the Treaty, especially as all such attempts are likely to lead into a quagmire. The surest way to obtain consensus is to stick with simple and undisputable words, where possible taken from the Treaty itself.
The Treaty of Trianon was a peace treaty between Hungary and the Allied and Associated Powers of WW1. This is clearly stated, in bold letters, at the top of the Treaty! It has nothing to do with the former Austro-Hungarian Empire. Why labour on inventing a new name for it? This traety is between Hungary and the Allied and Associated Poers! How many Treaties of Trianon are there?
The Treaty does NOT “regulate the situations of the states that replaced the former Kingdom of Hungary”, It does not regulate the size of any of the Allied and Associated Powers’ armies, or armaments, or the ratio of officers to men in the army, or restrict their manufacture of tanks and aeroplanes, or the building of high-power wireless telegraphy stations, and half a million other things. It simply spells out, specifically with regard to Hungary what she may or may not do. It regulates only Hungary! This is not unusual, after all, this is a peace treaty. And like in all peace treaties that are signed between victors and vanquished, it contains the terms on which the winners are willing to bring an end to a state of war. So why not just stick to the simple fact and state the simple truth in a simple, unoffending language - The Peace Treaty set out the terms on which the victorious powers were willing to bring an end the state of war with Hungary. Full stop! No need for inventive language or euphemisms. Is this such a terrible thing? Please, tell me by all means, what's objectionable about this? Where is the problem? Bardwell 22:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
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I cannot see how one can be more neutral than by stating that The Treaty of Trianon was a peace treaty between Hungary and the Allied and Associated Powers of WW1 To portray this as “The Treaty of Trianon was a peace treaty that regulated the situation of the states that replaced the former Kingdom of Hungary, part of pre-war Austria-Hungary, after World War I.” is an interpretaion of the traety’s title. Like all interpretaions, it represents a POV. Whether it is a right or wrong POV, neutral or biased, is irrelevan to the argument when the wording is disputed and when the precise definition is available and can be cited, as is the case in this instance. From this it follows, I think, and please correct me if I am wrong, that I, or anyone else so inclined, would have full justification to remove it, as an unsourced and uncited interpretation, and replace it with a cited version which is NOT an interpretation but the real McCoy. (Do we really want a never-ending reverts war over this?)
As for the treaty ― this traety, the treaty with Hungary, that is ― "was a peace treaty that regulated the situation of the states that replaced the former Kingdom of Hungary", can anyone provide any relevant citations for this from within the text of the Treaty? I think this wording, well-intentioned though as it may be, is but an inept disguise of what the treaty was - peace terms offered by the victors to the vanquished. There is nothing to be ashamed about this. This was, and probably still is, the way of the world. All the actors in this drama had made their stage exits a long time ago and are now dead and burried. Let the ink on the document speak for itself. Bardwell 16:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
What bout this version?
The Treaty of Trianon is a peace treaty between Hungary and the Allied and Associated Powers signed on June 4, 1920, at the Grand Trianon Palace at Versailles, France. The winning parties of the Treaty included the "Allied Powers" ( United States, Britain, France, Italy, and Japan) and the smaller "Associated Powers" (especially Romania, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, and Czechoslovakia) of World War I. The losing party was Hungary alone, since Austria-Hungary had by this time disintegrated. The Treaty regulated the situation of the states that replaced the former Kingdom of Hungary, part of pre-war Austria-Hungary, after World War I.
The first sentence characterizes the Treaty in the same way as it is described in its own Preamble. As to the last sentence, it can be illustrated by the articles about obligations of the successor states other than Hungary (namely Article 44, 47, 51, 52, 61). I hope the new proposal adequately addresses all issues that you have raised. Tankred 23:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
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I think this is a step in the right direction and is neatly composed. I would however question the need for singling out and naming, as you have done, the three countries from the Associated Powers. There were outher countries that were given land from Hungary, namely Austria and Italy, and even more countries towards whom Hungary was left with financial or other obligations. So what exactly is the point of naming three countries with an ‘especially’ tag? It only muddies the waters, I think. Don't you agree? If not - why do you think this is necessary?
You might find it interesting to visit wikipedia:No original research. The following are the key operative policy statements:
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Tankred, Hungary was NOT a successor state. To argue otherwise would, I think, invite justifiable charges that the article was interpretive and manipulative. [For ref. to who the successor states were see Macartney: Hungary - a Short History, (1962), page 107, etc.] Irrespective of the above, I don’t think it would be right to pick three of the Associated Powers and drop them into the lead section unless it enhanced the meaning of the lead section, for example: “The principal beneficiaries of territorial adjustment were Romania, The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Yugoslavia), and Czechoslovakia”. The reason for the presence of the names of the principal beneficiaries in the lead section , without a brief explanation, would, I think, be unclear to the reader and therefore, from an editorial perspective, wrong.
Bardwell 10:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The book can be found here: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/macartney/ Bardwell, where is the part correcponding to p. 107? Milanmm 18:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
If you look here:
Allies of World War I, Romania and Serb-Croat-Slovene State are not listed, but Czechoslovakia. Who can explain it?
Milanmm 18:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
My version:
Milanmm 18:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
hi guys, I've just been looking through old bits of the archive here, and WHAT A MESS. For heaven's sake, you all sound like a bunch of schoolchildren fighting on the playground. How about a new rule for discussion here? How about: no one will call any of their fellow editors a fascist, revisionist, chauvinist, troll, vandal or other nasty names that have been thrown around here, and quit accusing people you don't agree with of being sockpuppets of vandals. Are you here to write an article, or to compete for the title of Most Obnoxious Wikipedian, Most Paranoid, Most Childish etc.? Look, Trianon was a messy affair, there are legitimate complaints (and legitimate good things) on all sides. As soon as everyone here stops flinging ethnic/nationalist insults back and forth, some progress might be made. Try putting conspiracy theories behind you and be intelligent Wikipedians please!! K. Lastochka 03:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I hesitate to stir this pot, but there seem to be no citations for the census data here. I have no reason to think any of it is inaccurate, just that the article fails to cite for it. - Jmabel | Talk 01:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
True enough. Another strange thing is that the pre-war census data (which would show a more mixed population) are for areas outside Hungary, while post-war census data (which would show a less mixed population, due to population transfers) is given only for Hungary. Smells like a weasel to me. Causantin 13:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Probably if you read the article you would know that the borders changed between the two dates... Zello 22:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
On reading this article I was struck by the fact that most of the contributors seemed to be writing from a Hungarian, Slovak, Romanian viewpoint. I have therefore added some stuff trying to explain why the Allies took the decisions they did. Please amend as you will! Jameswilson 00:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
If there are "plenty of non-Hungarians who also hold that opinion" then please writte who they are because I know only Hungarians who hold that opinion (the real misleading thing here is to say that "some people" have that opinion, but not to say who those people are) and please do not delete sentence that "non-Hungarians also consider Carpathian Basin their home" - I am not Hungarian and I consider it my home, so with what exactly you have problem here? PANONIAN 20:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
You see, this paragraph is meant to contrast the view of the Hungarians with the view of the Allied Powers, not with the Slovaks and Romanians. Contrasting viewpoints works best when you only present them two at a time: dragging in sentences about the non-Hungarians also thinking the Carpathian Basin was their home turns that clear, concise paragraph about the Hungarians and the Allies into a big confusing mushy mess. Add it somewhere else if you must belabor the obvious, just please don't mess up one of the few well-written paragraphs in this disaster area of an article. K. Lásztocska 16:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)The victorious Allies arrived in France with a black-and-white view of the situation in central Europe which made the outcome inevitable. At the heart of the dispute lay fundamentally different views of the nature of the Hungarian presence in the disputed territories. For the Hungarians the whole of the Carpathian Basin was seen as "home". The western powers and the American press in particular saw the Hungarians as colonial-style rulers who had oppressed the Slavs and Romanians since 1867.
I'm getting really tired of seeing that "weasel words" template up top here. Can somebody please point out the instances of weasel words? I will try and fix them and maybe we can get rid of that ugly tag. K. Lásztocska 13:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I've undone my yesterday's redirect of "trianon"--it now redirects to the disambig page, how it was before. Sorry for any confusion it caused, I guess I should discuss redirects before going all Rouge on you guys. :-) K. Lásztocska 22:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
When you talk about Trianon, you cannot be objective, you should on one side. Even if you are British or American. I am sorry if I write something duplicated, I didn't check the complete archive on this ...
First point: "treaty" is when two sides are agreed on something. This was not this case, the Entente has decided one-sided, so it is simply not a treaty, but a dictatum, so this is a misleading political bias, even today! It is pity, that Hungary was "punished" so much, even if we didn't start the war (WWI) and we had no interest in this war.
Second point: if this is a dictate, then the Entente should have followed the Wilsonian points (discussed before) and should have asked all (!!) regions/areas (not just disputed ones) for plebiscite. If it would have happened, strange thing would have happened to Ciuk county, Cluj-Napoca, Tirgu Mures, West-Transylvania, Kosice, Nitra, Burgenland, North Vojvodina, as at 1920, it was majority of Hungarians (nowadays not true).
Third point: Why the borders are there (why not 20 km away?). It is obvious, it had nothing to do with ethnicity, only politics: the Entente (mostly France) had to dismantle her competition (enemy) the Austrian Empire, so the best case is "divide et impera". But we need to also take care that the Austro-Hungarians will never threaten again. So, they surrounded Austria and Hungary with Entente-linked states, BUT taking care that the defendable mountains AND the startegic RAILWAYs stay out of the hostile area. You can see, why Ruthenian-minority SubCarpathia was given to Czechoslovakia (the Eastern part, later given to Soviet Union), it had very few links with the ethnicity. You would also ask why Oradea or Arad had fallen to Romania, it is clear: railway. Regarding the part "Muraköz" now part of Slovenia, you can still see it on the map, that the region is not an organic part of Slovenia, like a "hump", this was given to Slovenian-Serbo-Croatian Kingdom, because it was rich in oil. The most striking cut off is Burgenland (Őrség) which was given to Austria, which was never part of Austria, which was given to a nation which also lost the war, pls explain to me, why? (Most popular theory is that Hungary was turned to Soviet-Hungary and Entente punished more). Just one small story, which I cannot confirm. During the discussion on the treaty between French and Serbo-Croats on the borders of South, the borders were drawn, and everybody went to sleep, waiting for the Hungarian envoye's who would arrive the next day. During the night, one sergeant sneaked inside the ballroom, and re-drew the border, giving more area to what we today call Croatia. The next day, everybody noticed, but didn't say a word, just ordered to sign the document. Anyway, this "treaty" was just the justification which was already done at that time. The areas were already occupied by nationalistic troops, and at the same time, a strong diplomatic game was going on. It was an easy lobby, as the interest were common. Maybe one more interesting point: the name Bratislava and Belgrade was born in 1918-1920. Bratislava from Vrastislav in 10th century (?) who tought to have built a fortress there, Belgrade was always "Nandorfehervar" = "Bulgarian White Castle", later Bjelovar (? correct me).
Fourth: The behaviour of the newly-brewn states, well, we should not call it ethical. The borders in the "treaty" was clear --- but what did ALL the surrounding armies do? Hungary, having no army to defend itself, was an easy prey. The troops did not stop at the borders, but proceeded on. The Great (?) Entente states did nothing to stop them, Romanian troops even took Budapest, and began looting. How do you attest to this, dear Romanians?
Fifth: So what was the REAL point of the treaty? It is also clear. Great Hungary (not Austria-Hungary) was and still is in a strategic and important position. This is where the "West" is trading with Russia, where the "North" meets "South". This is where the trade routes where going for centuries. This is the region of Europe where the was no famine, and scarsely plague in the Middle Ages (this is not relevant, here, sorry). This Carpathian basin had to be divided with peoples living in hatred, to let them fight their petty small wars. The economy was cut off from the diferent regions, and it was simply not functioning for long time. It started to function after dictatorship, after force.
So what is my proposal to dissolve this stress, which will never subdue, if we (Serbs, Romanians, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Ukraininas, Austrians, Hungarians) should re-unite as federal states, each as independent, but as one market. Kingdom of Hungary was a sacral kingdom, under which the ethnics prospered (if not, then they would have been assimilated). I hate to admit it, but we, Hungarians didn't follow ethnic tolerance after Habsurg dualistic monarchy.
I am open to your thoughts, shoot me :) But please, I have also been brainwashed in my youth, pls dont give me nationalistic bullshit. Abdulka 17:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Robert Grower (member of House of Commons in UK): the Benes dictates were already agreed upon in 1918 summer during secret talks. The study of ethnic divergence was started in Nov. 20th, 1918, in France, stating "Slovakia is a mere myth. The Slovak tribes in North Hungary have never made a state before... The borders drawn by French experts do not cross Danube, is not including Bratislava, where for each 14 Slovak there are 86 Hungarian and German".
Henri Pozzi: "Regarding Trianon, it was not about who was right, but rather, who has the interest to have have the truth granted to.(...) The great peacemakers did not have elementary knowledge on the geography, the ethnicity, the history of the nations to settle. Wilson, for example, has always mixed Slovaks with Slovenes. Lloyd Goerge was not more knowledgable. (...) The Romanians behaved like chickens, when they were on the frontline or in the line of fire, and when defeated, they behaved like traitors. After having won the war by others, they had the guts to ask for the reckoning during the Peace Conference."
Henri Clemenceau: "The audaciousness of the Romanians are boundless"
Smuts (South African general): He requested plebiscite for Transylvania, Slovakia, SubCarpathia and Croatia. He told, this right was given to Germany in terms of Holstein, Silezia, end East-Prussia. Even though supported from English, Japanese, Polish and Russian side, the Czech, Romanian and Serb side blocked, in fear of fiasco.
Abbey Weterle (speech in French Parliament in 17 June 1921): "I am confident that in case of plebiscite, neither the Romanians, nor the Serbs would not have received even 1/3 of the votes."
Lloyd George (memoirs, dated 7. Oct. 1929): "The complete documentation, which was given to us by our allies during the Peace Conference was a cheat and untrue."
Nitti (Italian Prime Minister, in his book from 1925): "So far there was one multi-ethnic nation in Carpathian basin, now we have four-five. Hungary will never disclaim Transylvania (...) the revision will have to be done sooner or later."
Benes: "As I have seen the possible dangers, I have started on my own to draft the peace of future in Paris. Almost all what I have done were done by improvising and without bibliography."
Mitterand (told this to poet Gyula Illyes, in 1979, to Hungarian Prime Minister Jozsef Antall, and on a lecture in University of Leipzig): "What happened in Trianon, was a filthy thing".
Prime Minister of Australia, in 1992: "Everybody knows, that Trianon was a huge scam".
Maniu (Romanian Prime Minister): "... during the so-called Hungarian oppression, we, Romanians in Transylvania, had a better life, than now."
Hlinka (Slovak nationalist, in 4/June 1925): "Should the memory of Hungarian Homeland glow within our hearts, as during the thousand-year of Hungarian dominance we have not suffered as much as under the 6 years of Czech dominance" (from the book by USA general Bonsal, "Czechs, Slovaks and Pater Hlinka")
Stipic (leader of Serbs of Hungary): "The six years of Yugoslav regime has brought longing for Hungarian dominance".
Peace! Abdulka 16:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I have to oppose Squash Racket's new addition. He/she insist on changing a more precise and NPOV sentence "Hungarian politicians have periodically voiced concerns about the treatment of these ethnic Hungarian communities in the neighboring states" into a vague statement "there has been clear doubt about the treatment". Whose doubt? How clear? With no doubt about the doubt? Do we talk about "cler doubt" in all the neighboring countries and for the whole period or just in some of them and for some periods of time (as the cited sources in fact suggest). I believe a vague sentence of this kind reduces quality of this article. As I do not want to be dragged into another revert war with this user, I would appreciate input from other editors of this article, so we can reach consensus here. Tankred 13:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
("It's important to avoid copyright problems. I would like to point out that even if it was explained to User:Squash Racket the reasons why this cannot be used there, he/she continued to use it and the conversation with User:Squash Racket is quite impossible because of his/her continues accusations and a very hostile attitude. I would ask Squash Racket to try to have a more positive attitude and to try to collaborate with the other users instead of atacking them. -- R O A M A T A A | msg 04:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)")
"Clear doubt" makes no sense as an expression. I have restored the original wording but kept the references added by Squash Racket. K issL 10:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
"Treaties can be loosely compared to contracts: both are means of willing parties assuming obligations among themselves" ( treaty). But how we call a contract when one of the parties is not negotiating, only has the right to sign the document? Someone can help with this? Squash Racket 04:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
That is usually called a Dictatum. Perhaps it would be more appropriate in the title at least as an option, like Trianon Treaty or Dictatum. Giordano Giordani 11:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This is what the Hungarians are fighting for since 1920, to call it what it was, really. "Treaty" is more than euphemism here. Abdulka 10:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I have re-removed several paragraphs of the "Political Consequences" section, for 3 reasons:
You may provide better sources, but deletion of well referenced whole paragraphs IS vandalism. And you should also wait for the opinion of others before making so big changes after all the article is important for others too. Squash Racket 09:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The exact source I consider unreliable is [4]. It is an essay (by definition not very reliable) that supports positions took by Hitler, the anti-semitic Hungarian politician Istvan Csurka. Moreover, the essay is completely non-encyclopedic, and probably made because of US-Hungary political ties. Dpotop 09:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The first paragraph removed by Dpotop asserts that there are significant differences between the situation in Western European countries versus their countries and the situation in Hungarian-majority versus non-Hungarian majority territories in the KoH. Since there are no sources claiming exactly this, the paragraph fails WP:NOR (more specifically, WP:SYN).
The last paragraph equally asserts something that is not supported directly by the reference. Murray Rothbard is notable, but what we could say without violating NPOV or NOR would be something along the lines "Murray Rothbard, U.S. anarcho-capitalist thinker has suggested revisiting the treaty in an essay written in 1993", which is too marginal in itself to merit inclusion, IMO. If someone assembles comprehensive lists of both people who have hailed this treaty and people who have denounced it, then we could include this information there.
In short, I endorse Dpotop's removals.
K issL 09:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Surely in the anals of Wiki History this discussion page must get the award for the most heated and lengthy discussion (argument). When will it end? Surely after another 50 years of peacefully living in the harmonic open borders of the EU will all this bickering and trouble stiring hate be forgotten - thank God! Sidney Bung 20:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
From WP:TALK: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal. K issL 11:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Why not introduce the Banat Republic into the article? -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 00:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I deleted this map from the article. This is a map from 1920, representing I don't know what data (it's not clear), for clear propaganda purposes. Just take a look: One would say that Slovakia and Transylvania are void of population, just waiting to be filled in with red. :):) The only way this map can be placed here (or any other article, for that matter) is with proper sourcing and explanations as to what each color represents, and on what data it is based, a.s.o. Dpotop ( talk) 10:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but all low density places are left out, Hungarians too as you just pointed out. This map definitely helps an NPOV view of this. The Austrian map does not really explain why Hungarians complained about the Treaty afterwards.
Squash Racket (
talk) 14:09, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
A source for the map:
National Geographic Hungary's official website. According to the article
Apponyi tried to use that map during the negotiations, but too late, because originally he had wanted to restore the borders of the Kingdom of Hungary. He should have negotiated based on nationalities and census, not territory.
Squash Racket (
talk) 14:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
If the source of the map is really
National Geographic Hungary's official website, then the presence of the image on Wikipedia is violating the National Geographic copyright.
147.175.98.213 (
talk) 21:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that National Geographic owns the copyright of a map drawn 80 years ago by a Hungarian scientist. The copyright obviously expired and they are using the map on their website similary like we in wikipedia. Zello ( talk) 22:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Could you at least give us a map with better resolution? It is not readable and the caption '"Red Map" of the nationalities of Hungary' doesn't help much. Additionally, it should be labeled with information about it's origin and that it was used by the Magyar side at the negotiations. The way it is now, it can be (mis)interpreted in various ways. 147.175.98.213 ( talk) 20:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding "uninhabited areas in this map are exaggerated especially in regions where inhabitants were non-Hungarians", I can give a source for this statement, just wait few days. I remember reading about Teleki's map in "Spaţiul istoric şi etnic românesc" (The Romanian historical and ethnic space), I will come soon with details about this book. I don't agree with Dpotop that the Red map is stupid, it was a clever attempt to manipulate the decision of the peace conference, but is still a mainly propagandistic work and is using unscientific methods. The manipulation is visible with naked eye for persons with knowledge about Transylvania. There are no dessertic regions in Transylvania. For example, in the red map almost the entire Hunedoara county (a Romanian-majority region) appear uninhabited. Anybody who make a visit in that region will find plenty of people there (and it was populated in 1919 also).-- MariusM ( talk) 13:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The fact that the regions declared "uninhabited" in the red map are mainly inhabited by minorities is sourced by the Austrian ethnographic map which is just above in the article.-- MariusM ( talk) 00:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Hungarian-populated Transylvanian mountains like the Hargita and the hills of Csík are considered uninhabited on the map. What's the difference with Apuşeni? Zello ( talk) 12:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I have seen this map in a book once, with the method explained on it in Hungarian and English. It claimed to be a reproduction of the original. I'll look it up and copy the English text here, if you guys will be patient for a few days.
Anyways, from what I remember, the method was to make the areas filled with a certain colour proportionate to the number of people having the respective ethnicity. White spots were defined by a population density below a certain limit where representing the population in the exact location where they live would have led to a lot of small, separated spots whose sizes would be hard to tell apart. However the people living in these areas are represented as living in the nearest settlement that is sizeable enough to be coloured of its own right, this I remember for sure.
The viewpoints that "the 1910 census data on which the map is based are biased" / "this map can be used to create the false impression that many regions where Hungarians are a minority are uninhabited anyway" are logically acceptable and notable enough to be represented in the article with the proper citations. On the other hand, since the map doesn't use the word "uninhabited" and explains in detail why white areas are white, throwing around expressions like "propaganda material", accusing Teleki of creating the map with a propaganda purpose in the first place, or saying that the method of representing ethnicities proportionately to their numbers (as opposed to the land area they inhabit) is "unscientific" is just ridiculous. Even on the talk page. Especially because having proportionately less reds AND purples over a certain area within Transylvania doesn't make that area visually any redder than before, right? So I fail to see how that would have helped Hungary gain lands that don't "belong to" her in terms of ethnic justice.
To which I will add: if I were as much of a hot-headed nationalist as some people around here seem to be, I could start yelling "propaganda" because the Austrian map represents nationalities proportionately to the land area they inhabit, thus creating the false impression that the Hungarians made up much less of the population of the KoH than they actually did ("look at the map, dammit, does it look like there's four times as much green as there is orange???") – but I'm not, so we'll not start this kind of discussion.
The bottom line is that the two maps are fair in different ways, and can be used to create false impressions in yet other different ways (and no doubt they were both used as much as possible for both their fair and unfair ends). I see no reason why they shouldn't both be included – with the appropriate commentary, of course. K issL 11:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
"half-uninhabited regions which the red map is showing about the areas lost by Hungary" - this a distortion of the facts. There is no difference in the method regarding the lost and retained territories. Similarly there is no difference in the method regarding Hungarian-populated regions and others. Zello ( talk) 22:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Low density mountainous territories of Székelyland are shown as uninhabited although they were populated by Magyars. Big areas of Transdanubia are also shown as uninhabited, so the method have been used consistently. Population density is not an insignificant factor and another map using the more traditional method were added together with the red map. The caption explains the method used. There is nothing misleading in the present version. Zello ( talk) 00:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the term "fake impression" is nowhere near NPOV, or even imitating NPOV. Also, please stop forcing (and then refuting) the notions "uninhabited" or "unpopulated". Both the red map itself (I'll really dig it up, promise) and the caption I formulated for it a few days ago make an effort to dismiss that incorrect interpretation. K issL 14:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
-- fz22 ( talk) 20:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I've found it. Here goes:
“ | Ethnographical maps hitherto disregarded the density of population. They cover densely inhabited regions and those with scattered population equally with plain colouring. On ethnographical maps of Europe 2.4 million Norvegians are represented by a bigger coloured surface, than the 43 million inhabitants of Great Britain, and 30,000 Lapponians by an equal surface. This conveys to the general reader a wrong impression, especially as to the relative weight of ethnical groups of population.
In the present map I have tried to provide the general reader, — the man in a hurry — with a map enabling him to recognise at first glance the number and nationality of the population. The map is both an ethnographical and a demographical one. Every square millimeter of coloured surface represents 100 inhabitants, the respective colour being that of their nationality. The white spaces represent the relatively uninhabited regions with scattered population and so small villages only that they could not be represented (i. e. printed) on a map of this scale. But you find all these people included and represented. Not a single soul remains unrepresented, scattered population of the mountains, woods, steppes and swamps being counted and represented with that of the valley, or of the next greater village. |
” |
The emphasis is in the original, as is the typo "Norvegians".
The title of the map is "Ethnographical map of Hungary based on density of population by Count Paul Teleki, Professor of Geography. Every square millimeter coloured indicates 100 inhabitants. According to the census of 1910."
BTW, the map is included as an attachment in a 1928 book titled "Igazságot Magyarországnak!" ("Justice for Hungary!") containing a collection of essays written by prominent Hungarian statesmen of the time.
K issL 09:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The caption describes the map in a correct way, I guess there is no doubt about that. Would anyone of you tell us exactly what kind of criticism would you include? The original goal of the
Hungarian
delegation was to restore the borders of the Kingdom. The goal with the Red Map was to modify the borders to create the most
homogeneous states possible. MariusM, before any more comments try to understand the way the map was created.
We are talking about the Red Map here only, not about a whole book!
Squash Racket (
talk) 06:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Just a few thoughts:
1) Different choices of the threshold density (100/mm^2 in this case) in such a map produce different maps. And these different maps leave a different visual impression. A legitimate question is why 100 and not 50 (or 10, or 75)? Well, it seems like even now Hungarians and Romanians like to present the same facts in different ways in order to prove different points. And we can imagine how much stronger this was in 1920. For me, as a Romanian, it's not hard to guess that the main reason behind the compilation of this map was to generate a map that can be as red as possible. And where it's impossible to get the red, then let's choose the appropriate threshold density that will give us white (rather than another colour). What I'm trying to say is that the choice of the threshold density is a very subjective matter.
2) I cannot see the point of such a map in the context of the Treaty of Trianon. How is the population density relevant when deciding if a region should belong to a nation or another. The world is definitely not made up by countries having similar population densities. And Norway/UK is a very good example indeed. All that mattered at the time was "who had the majority in a particular region?". And no matter what is the choice of the threshold density (and consequently how many white regions you obtain), to me it is clear that these white regions should be associated with their respective majorities. I'm really curious to find out what other people think. Who should administrate the regions that have a population density below a certain level? Shall it be the UN? Alexrap ( talk) 13:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The Austria-Hungary map gives a wrong impression, 2.5 million ethnic Hungarians live in Hungary's neighboring countries today. If you want to include criticism, we can discuss, but don't make the NPOV desriptions of the maps POV. Squash Racket ( talk) 12:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Squash Racket, I was confused by you talking about the "2.5 million ethnic Hungarians that live in Hungary's neighboring countries today" (i.e. 2008) in the discussion page of an article relating to 1920.
Fz22, I wrote <<"own">> and not just <<own>> because I was not talking about the actual owner of a particular forest, but the state that in the 1920 context was most entitled to administrate the whole land these forests were in.
Hobartimus, you are missing an important point. There were (and still are) very few uninhabited places in Transylvania. There is no 2500m high mountain at all, they are all quite a lot less than that. And people always lived in the mountains as well, although in lower population densities than the ones encountered in the plains. The red map did not make white just the uninhabited regions. It artificially made white all the regions with population densities below a certain threshold. I would like to meet a single person who knows a bit about Transylvania and is not intrigued at all by the fact that large regions from Hunedoara, Alba, Sibiu, Bistrita, Arad, Harghita, Brasov, Bihor, Maramures, Cluj, Covasna appear on this "red map" as uninhabited.
And finally a very important point that apparently I was not able to get across. In the context of the Treaty of Trianon, the important issue was who was living in a particular region. With the focus on the region, and not on the overall population from the whole former Austria-Hungary. Different regions had different population densities and they had to be considered separately. Chosing thresholds like 100 people per mm^2 of the map is very subjective. I could probably undestand a threshold like inhabited/uninhabited. But anything else is just wrong because it creates the impression that an artificially chosen population density defines whether people from a regions are ignored (and moved next to other people) or not. Alexrap ( talk) 14:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, why don't we try to hold our horses a bit? Hobartimus, I'm trying to keep a certain level for this discussion, but you are not helping at all. Either my English is extremely bad, or you prefer not to understand what I'm saying.
1) It's not just me knowing how many uninhabited places were in Transylvania in 1910. Everyone (including yourself) knows that. It's not rocket science. There are extremely few (if any) new settlements founded in Transylvania after 1910. Almost all the increase in population from 1910 to 2008 is the result of the urban population increase. Actually many rural places have nowadays less population than in 1910. You can easily check everything I said above just by having a look at the Census data. Try this website for example.
2) I was just told that there are 38% forest land in Transylvania? Are you joking? I don't need to be told that. My question to Fz22 was how he calculated the 38-80-20 percentages. Meaning that 80% of the 38% were represented as Romanian and 20% of the 38% as Hungarian. He didn't answer the question. But I chose not to continue that argument as it was pointless. Apparently you didn't get it.
3) I don't know on how many 'over 2500m Romanian peaks' you've actually been, but I can tell you that I've been on all 5 of them. And they are all at the very border between Transylvania and Wallachia, so practically irrelevant to our talk here. That is what I meant. And before starting to give lessons to the others, it's advisable to get it right for yourself first. The Southern Carpathians and Transylvanian Alps are not at all the same thing. I'll leave it to you to find out what the difference is. In any case, there is no 2500m peak in the Transylvanian Alps. They are all less than 1850m.
4) The statement "people always lived in the mountains as well" is not absurd at all. Mountain does not mean "the peak of the mountain".
5) I didn't "confuse any meaning" regarding the white on the map. Please try to read the sentence again. I was just saying that regions that were inhabited in reality appear as white on the map (thus implying that they were uninhabited). Which is wrong and extremely misleading. Alexrap ( talk) 12:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I wonder how accurate are the data about post-Trianon Hungary. While is normal that German language, which was an official language of the Austro-Hungary and was taught in schools, was spoken not only by ethnic Germans, which is the explanation for such a big number of non-Slovaks speaking Slovak, non-Romanians speaking Romanian, non Serbo-Croatians speaking Serbo-Croatian (5% speaking Slovak but only 1,8% ethnic Slovaks; 2,2% speaking Serbo-Croatian but only 1% South Slavs; 1,1% speaking Romanian but only 0,3% ethnic Romanians)? My guess is that the number of minorities in post-Trianon Hungary was higher but social pressure made some of the citizens of other ethnic backgrounds to declare themselves Hungarians.-- MariusM ( talk) 23:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
These numbers were added by Juro, I remember our discussion long ago. I thought them suspicious, so I looked up the 1920 census data and added the much lower official numbers for mother language which are more realistic. I checked the "bilingual numbers" and they were correct, see "Correct Data" section above with citation. I also gave some explanation there for the reasons behind. Zello ( talk) 12:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Well done Fz22, very nice map. I think it is really useful in this article and it looks professional. Some comments though:
1) The bar that shows percentages of ethnic groups in the different regions is 100% full in the case of Hungary and Kingdom of Hungary and only partially full in all the other cases. I presume that it's somehow related to the corresponding population density of each region, but I'm not sure and it's quite hard to guess. An explanation in the description page would be very useful.
2) I can't see the rule of ordering the way in which ethnic groups are represented in the bars. One option would be to have them ordered according to each respective region (e.g. for Slovakia the bar should show from let to right Slovaks, Hungarians, Ruthenians, Germans, others). This would probably be the best option, since the map wants to illustrate consequences of the Treaty. Another option would be to order them according to the percentages in the whole Kingdom of Hungary (this is probably not the best option if we want to show consequences). The present rule, if any, is quite confusing though. What's the rule?
3) The 2 long arrows in the centre/bottom of the image suggest that people from Vojvodina and Međimurje and Prekmurje are represented together? Why? Alexrap ( talk) 16:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems that there is a little bit of "edit-war" going on about the addition of this NY Times article as a reference in here. Squash Racket added it 2-3 days ago, MariusM removed it, then it was added again by Hobartimus and Squash Racket.
Well, it seems that this neverending story continues on the same note. It's very sad that we tend to go into the same sort of Romanian-Hungarian edit wars over and over again. But let's try to put our objective glasses on, rather than being emotional about things.
At least to me, using that NYT article as a reference in here is very artificial and, to be honest, quite childish. It is referenced in 3 places:
Now, which one of this three statements do you honestly think that needs that new NYT article as a reference? All three things are already well-known facts and if they would need any reference at all, it should certainly be something else.
Therefore, at least to me (although I can be accused of being subjective here) it is obvious that the idea behind having that reference in here is exactly the oposite of what it should be. Normally, we should use references to improve the article, and not use the article to advertise references. Alexrap ( talk) 12:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The reliable, English language, neutral reference supports four points of the article, there is no valid reason for its removal. Squash Racket ( talk) 04:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I asked administrators to reinsert it, it happened, hopefully this time the article remains there supporting (at least) all the four statements. It would be helpful if we could pull up possibly English language academic sources and add them with inline citations. Squash Racket ( talk) 12:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Neil and Kralizec, the "fuss" was created because the NYT article is not directly related with the subject of this article. It's about the situation of today's Szekely minority in Romania. At least for me, citing it for at least some of the points looked very awkward. Something like citing only for the sake of citing. If you analyse point by point the discussion in here and read the whole NYT article, you might get an idea about "why all this fuss?". Anyway, it seems like there is an agreement between all of us that an academic source would be more appropriate. A trip to the library and a very short search in there pointed me towards several books. I will insert them as references in the article. Alexrap ( talk) 12:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Provided the content accurately reflects the source it is citing, it seems clear that no one should object to the use of The New York Times as a source. The one possible exception I could see would be if there were already two or three sources supporting a fact that were of an even higher quality than the NYT article, in which case it might be deemed superfluous to use the article as an additional source, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. Everyking ( talk) 03:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The text of the Treaty should either be in the references or the external links. It is mentioned twice in the article right now. Squash Racket ( talk) 14:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:EL#References and citation I removed it from the external links. Squash Racket ( talk) 14:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Since we have enough secondary sources now in the lead I removed the Britannica reference. You should activate a free trial for it anyway unless you have access to it. Squash Racket ( talk) 14:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
sorry!!!!!!!!!????? -- Nina.Charousek ( talk) 13:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
it is a POV and a clear falsification of history: it is fact The treaty declared that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was to be dissolved: Whereas the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy has now ceased to exist, and has been replaced in Hungary by a national Hungarian Government.-- Nina.Charousek ( talk) 14:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Squash Racket. Also you removed sourced informations: "Hungary lost over two-thirds of its territory, about two-thirds of its inhabitants under the treaty and 3.3 million ethnic Hungarians" Baxter9 ( talk) 15:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
So Hungary was a separated country. Read th Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (1919) article to find out what happened with Austria... Baxter9 ( talk) 15:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... anything specific? I just checked the article on the other treaty and in fact it DOES list Austria's losses in great detail. Squash Racket ( talk) 16:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
To me that seems more than three lines:
Austria was reduced not only by the loss of crownlands incorporated into the states of Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Yugoslavia (the “successor states”) but by the cession of the regions Istria and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, city of Trieste, and several Dalmatian islands to Italy and the cession of Bukovina to Romania. In total, it lost land to Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Romania, and Italy. Burgenland, then a part of Hungary, was awarded to Austria.
The Austrian Army was limited to a force of 30,000 volunteers. There were numerous provisions dealing with Danubian navigation, the transfer of railways, and other details involved in the breakup of a great empire into several small independent states. (...)
The vast reduction of population, territory and resources of the new Austria relative to the old empire wreaked havoc on the economy of the old nation, most notably in Vienna, an imperial capital without an empire to support it. The forcible incorporation of the German-speaking population of the border territories of the Sudetenland into the state of Czechoslovakia, created enormous problems - which became one of the causes of World War II.
The other article is a bit too short for such comparisons, don't you think? Squash Racket ( talk) 17:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
"but Austria-Hungary 1916 and Hungary 1921 were two absolute different counrties, it is not successor, not heritage"
WHAT???? YES IT IS A DIRECT SUCCESSOR! Austria-Hungary consisted of two souverain kingdoms the Austrian empire and the Hungarian Kingdom. Hungary was always a separated part of the Habsburg Empire, not like the territory of the Czeh Republic. Habsburg emperors were Hungarian kings as well, they HAD TO BE CROWNED to the King of Hungary. After the treaty of Trianon until 1946 Hungary's stateform was kingdom, the direct successor of the Hungarian Kingdom which was member of the dualistic Austria-Hungary. The last Habsbur emperor/king Charles the IV tried many times to get his Hungarian trone back, even because he was Hungarian king who was crowned in 1916. One queston to you: the Czeh state was dissolved in 1618-1620 after the 30 years war and it was (re)created in 1918 (not on the same territories). So do you czeh people feel that heritage as your own? (According to you, you should not) What do you think about Great Moravia? Hm? Is the Czeh state of direct successor of Czechoslovakia? Same territory? Heritage? Baxter9 ( talk) 17:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
And what is not neutral for you? That it tells the reader that Hungary lost 75% of it's territory? What is wrong with that? That is a fact, nothing else. Baxter9 ( talk) 17:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
no, hungary of 1921 is a complete new sturtups, hungary did signed trianon, and that say explicit: Whereas the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy has now ceased to exist, and has been replaced in Hungary (border Hungary 1921) by a national Hungarian Government, Trianon is valid, all another is withcraft, right-wing radicalism, clear falsification of history and the trample at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Trianon is today and tomorrow (in 100 years?) a valid agreement. -- Nina.Charousek ( talk) 17:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Still waiting for your "problems" with the article: what is "withcraft, right-wing radicalism, clear falsification of history", show sentences, sections. And who said it is not valid?? Baxter9 ( talk) 18:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I am tired of this.... Hungary has not lost Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia because this kingdom has never been part of Hungary. We are having very interesting double standard in this article. First we are having statement:
"The Hungarian government terminated the personal union with Austria on 31 October 1918,...", then we are having statement that Kingdom of Hungary has lost Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. First I do no see logic in statement that 1 kingdom has lost another kingdom then we are having double standard because The Croatian government has terminated the personal union with Hungary on 29 October.
I can even find like evidence Croatian parliament declaration with which personal union with Hungary has ended.-- Rjecina ( talk) 20:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
CROATIA-SLAVONIA (Serbo-Croatian Hrvatska i Slavonija; Hung. Horvát-Szlavonország; Ger. Kroatien und Slawonien), a kingdom of the Hungarian monarchy;
The city and territories of Fiume, the sole important harbour on this coast, are included in Hungary proper, and controlled by the Budapest government.
By the fundamental law of the 21st of December 1867 Austria-Hungary was divided, for purposes of internal government, into Cisleithania, or the Austrian empire, and Transleithania, or the kingdoms of Hungary and Croatia-Slavonia. In theory the viceroy, or ban of CroatiaSlavonia is nominated by the crown, and enjoys almost unlimited authority over local affairs; in practice the consent of the crown is purely formal, and the ban is appointed by the Hungarian premier, who can dismiss him at any moment. The provincial government is subject to the ban, and comprises three ministries - the interior, justice, and religion and education, - for whose working the ban is responsible to the Hungarian premier(...)
Hear is text of Nagodba. In 1918 Croatia has abolished this agreement-- Rjecina ( talk) 02:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
kingdom Hungary proper has 108,982 sq. m. and Croatia-Slavonia 16,420 sq. m Hungary in Britannica 1911
HUNGARY (Hungarian Magyarorszag), a country in the south-eastern pertion of central Europe, bounded E. by Austria (Bukovina) and Rumania; S. by Rumania, Servia, Bosnia and Austria (Dalmatia); W. by Austria (Istria, Carniola, Styria and Lower Austria); and N. by Austria (Moravia, Silesia and Galicia). It has an area of 125,402 sq. m. (=325,111km2), being thus about 4000 sq. m. larger than Great Britain and Ireland.
[6]-- Bizso ( talk) 20:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)Geography And Statistics The kingdom of Hungary (Magyarbiradolorn) is one of the two states which constitute the monarchy of Austria-Hungary, and occupies 51.8% of the total area of the monarchy. Hungary, unlike Austria, presents a remarkable geographical unity. It is almost exclusively continental, having only a short extent of seaboard on the Adriatic (a little less than loo m.). Its land-frontiers are for the most part well defined by natural boundaries: on the N.W., N., E. and S.E. the Carpathian mountains; on the S. the Danube, Save and Unna. On the W. they are not so clearly marked, being formed partly by low ranges of mountains and partly by the rivers March and Leitha. From the last-mentioned river are derived the terms Cisleithania and Transleithania, applied to Austria and Hungary respectively.
CROATIA-SLAVONIA, a kingdom of the Hungarian monarchy; bounded on the N. by Carniola, Styria and Hungary proper; E. by Hungary and Servia [7]
My point is that Croatia is part of Realm of the Crown of St Stephen, but not Hungary. Map of hungarian 1910 census [8]-- Rjecina ( talk) 11:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
this article is a disgrace for english wp, all is reduced to borders, but this is only a part of set of problems, I looked for some another wp's and they have not excellent, but better article, hu.wp too
I hope for (wrong no marked cards by me):
I checked the history of this page. Good luck fighting over the same edits for the next 10 years lol. This distupe will never end. I leave the fighting to the more national minded people. Cheers to the EU! we'll all meet up there, anyway. :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizso ( talk • contribs) 02:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Gelardi, Julia. Born to Rule: Granddaughters of Victoria, Queens of Europe
This book is cited in the text. I checked and it is a biography on the British Royal family that has some offsprings in continental Europe. I don`t entirely understand how this is relevant to this topic but the citation is clearly insufficient as it does not list any pages!? Also, the text referenced to this book, is that the opinion of the author or a character in the book? This should be clarified.--
Bizso (
talk) 14:23, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Ambrosio Thomas: Preventing Hungarian Irredentism through Western Integration [9] The 2nd sentence of the source goes like this:
This is wrong as Hungary lost more than two-third of its historic territory.
Now, I don't want to jump to conclusions too soon, but a source that has a factual error in the 2nd sentence might not totally qualify as reliable?! --
Bizso (
talk) 10:19, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Biszo, thank you letting me know this apparent inconsistency.
The idea underlined there is, however, that the Hungarian revisionism was still a source of regional instability after the cold war ended.
Now, about the territory lost by Hungary it depends, I think, how you take in account the new Hungarian state territory: do you count in the Croatian territory, Transylvania etc? Ambrosio said something about Hungary's historic territory and if you look for the other reference I added there you can see what historic teritory is considered by the experts in this matters (see also Nationalism and Territory: Constructing Group Identity in Southeastern Europe. p. 67-109.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-7TgkO8utHIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Nationalism+and+Territory:+Constructing+Group+Identity+in+Southeastern+Europe.)
From strictly legal point of view, one might argue (again) that the new Hungarian state did not lose anything because, following the disintegration of Austro-Hungary, the new borders were only temporary until the Treaty of Trianon confirmed them. If one takes in consideration the internal Austro-Hungarian borders, then one might get a higher figure
http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_nowiki.pngbut using, perhaps, a disputable argument.
These were my thoughts and talking about
Thomas Ambrosio, I am confident that he knows these facts better than any wikipidian that, ever, bothered to discuss about these subjects. Me and you including. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tziganul (
talk •
contribs) 15:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
This is the source that cites the census data [10]
I checked it, and there has been a clear manipulation of data... The figures citing the 1910 census is correct but data for the 1919/20 census is partially wrong. The percantage of Romanians was 57.0% and Hungarians was 25.9% in 1880. Not 1920/1919.
For 1919/1920 the percentages can be calculated as follows:
Please note that it is emphesized by the author of the source that census data for 1919 and 1920 is highly unreliable and the next internationally recognized census, after the one in 1910, was held in 1930.
Therefore, I propose that we should omit the 1919/20 data and use solely the 1910 and 1930 figures.--
Bizso (
talk) 00:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
-- Bizso ( talk) 00:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I have noticed some edits stating In reality, Romanian troops had incomparably less casualties than either Britain or France, That's quite a gross falsification being quite easy to demonstrate the lack of the judgement of the editor. The causality figure given (any reliability in
http://www.kilidavid.com/History/World%20War%20I.htm ?) states for Romania 335,706 KIA and because, at that time, Romania had less than 8,000,0000 people it means that, actually, the causality rate is actually comparable if not higher than that sustained by France , for example. That's quite simple arithmetic and did not expect seeing it disputed.
Causality rate Romania = 333,707/8,000,000 = 0.042
Causality rate France = 1,375,800/40,000,000 =0.035
--
Tziganul (
talk) 19:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Bizso, I expect YOU to take out from article the false information introduced there! please make note that it is clear malicious edit!-- Tziganul ( talk) 23:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
OK, you have change it :). Thanks Bizso.
Now I am curious to see why at pollitical consequences you have introduced this narrative Romania was promised Transylvania and territories to the east of river Tisza, provided that she attacked Austria-Hungary from south-east, where defense was scarce. However, after the Central Powers had noticed the millitary manouvre, the attempt was quickly choked off and Bucharest fell in the same year. It is clearly not the place to do it.--
Tziganul (
talk) 23:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Historical aspects? Disputed (see for example the Origin of Romanians). Cultural and ethnic? Please elaborate. What about the geographic, economic, strategic aspects? Mentatus ( talk) 19:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
These aspects are closely related to one another and one often implies the other. For instance, the geographic, economic and strategic aspects have much overlap... I could continue to give further examples but I think the point conveyed is pretty obvious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonio09 ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, it's bad enough the article is nearly copy-pasted from http://www.hunsor.se/trianon/treatyoftrianon1920.htm, but the fact that the source used is in fact a website about political activism for "national minorities" in neighboring countries really is pathetic. Politics and propaganda should not be passed up as history on wikipedia. At the very least change the wording on the sentences and use more than one source when writing over two pages of information. Romano-Dacis ( talk) 18:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I have to say that seeing all this unbalance in this article, and pretty total disregard of the balanced, neutral, historical point of view, I am pretty tempted of tagging it.
Somebody has to realise that what was for Hungary a disaster was for the rest a blessing. I have never heard of the Slovakian, Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Romanian or Serbian being sorry about Austro-Hungary dissolution.
The economic consequences, just as an example, that are listed there show only one side of the coin. Most of the new states economies did redress pretty quick from the mess that was WWI. That fact is pretty remarkable, actually, taking in account the huge economic and human losses caused by the WWI. But there is nothing written about that in this article. And yes, one must reckon that the economic unity of the empire was a reality. There was a dependency between different regions, but, unfortunately for Hungary, the really developed part was actually the Austrian side of the Empire. Therefore, there was not really many incentives for ANY of these imperial minorities, to continue a common political/economical project together with Hungary in any form or shape, I would say. This are my thoughts, however, and I would not mind to see some other opinion expressed about this matter
This is not, by any means, disrespect for Hungarian history or Hungarian people whatsoever. However, this article has to be balanced with the others points of view too and we (Slovenians, Croatians, Rutenians, Slovakians, Serbians, Romanians) shouldn't have to take a deep breath every time we read this article.
I am tempted to contribute to this article but not really ready to start an edit war, therefore tagging the article might be the only option left for now. Before to do that, I would like to gather as many inputs as possible, about how this article could be improved. Therefore, don't be shy and come, please, with your ideas about this subject.--
Tziganul (
talk) 18:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I have to say that seeing all this unbalance in this article, and pretty total disregard of the balanced, neutral, historical point of view, I am pretty tempted of tagging it.
Somebody has to realise that what was for Hungary a disaster was for the rest a blessing. I have never heard of the Slovakian, Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Romanian or Serbian being sorry about Austro-Hungary dissolution.
The economic consequences, just as an example, that are listed there show only one side of the coin. Most of the new states economies did redress pretty quick from the mess that was WWI.
citation needed That fact? is pretty remarkable, actually, taking in account the huge economic and human losses caused by the WWI. But there is nothing written about that in this article. And yes, one must reckon that the economic unity of the empire was a reality. There was a dependency between different regions, but, unfortunately for Hungary, the really developed part was actually the Austrian side of the Empire. Therefore, there was not really many incentives for ANY of these imperial minorities, to continue a common political/economical project together with Hungary in any form or shape, I would say. This are my thoughts, however, and I would not mind to see some other opinion expressed about this matter
This is not, by any means, disrespect for Hungarian history or Hungarian people whatsoever. However, this article has to be balanced with the others points of view too and we (Slovenians, Croatians, Rutenians, Slovakians, Serbians, Romanians) shouldn't have to take a deep breath every time we read this article.
I am tempted to contribute to this article but not really ready to start an edit war, therefore tagging the article might be the only option left for now. Before to do that, I would like to gather as many inputs as possible, about how this article could be improved. Therefore, don't be shy and come, please, with your ideas about this subject.--
Tziganul (
talk) 18:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
In the article
Romania half thousand years of Hungarian rule in
Transylvania is mentioned in a half sentence, while the few-month vacation of Michael "the Brave" there has its own paragraph. And the article is not tagged.
If you have some concerns based on neutral, English academic literature, then present them.
BTW the treaty was quite poorly negotiated. The article doesn't mention that Romania and
Slovakia while constantly referring to the ethnic composition of Hungary at the time, in 2009 as EU members fail to provide autonomy (not to speak of independence) to hundreds of thousands of ethnic Hungarians based on the very same reasoning.
Squash Racket (
talk) 08:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Tziganul, I absolutely understand that you feel that there is a bias in the "wording" and the "presentation" of the article. But my best advice for you is to accept it. Wikipedia articles are divided into groups that are owned by groups of people (especially ones that concern nationality topics because nationalistic feelings are flourishing there). Don't attempt to change them, because you will get reverted sooner or later or what's even better, banned by an admin for no reason. Wikipedia will never be neutral. The reason is that everyone can edit it and some groups of people size control over certain articles. The Treaty of Trainon is owned by "Hungarian minded" editors so it will always be biased towards Hungarian feelings. Other Wikipedia editors that operate in groups respect this subtle fact and they don't want to edit this article for example. Nor will the Kingdom of Crotia be anything less than a totally independent autonomous kingdom. So my best advise again, is that you leave this article alone and find and read many alternate sources on the Treaty if you are interested. That's what I am going to do. Unfortunately, Wikipedia cannot offer more. I hope that what I said wasn't too vague. See ya-- Bizso ( talk) 05:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I've attempted to find some middle ground between the two positions currently being tossed back and forth. I've reinstated the full name (with link) to the Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia in the first mention of the region, but I think it's unneccessary (in the interest of linguistic elegance and brevity if nothing else) to keep re-iterating the full name throughout the article--once it's been established in the early part of the article, the intelligent reader will easily be able to interpret later references to "Croatia-Slavonia" correctly. K. Lásztocska talk 19:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
To be correct: Dalmatia was in Austrian part of Austria-Hungary and that way Croatia was administratively divided between Austria and Hungary. But, in other legal (!) way, Dalmatia was part of united Croatia (Triune Kingdom), under Hungarian Crown.
Croatian-Hungarian Agreement proves that. That Agreement was a pact signed in 1868, that governed Croatia's political status in the Hungarian-ruled part of Austria-Hungary.
So, we should use "Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia", not just "Croatia-Slavonia".
Here's the text in Croatian
Hrvatsko-ugarska nagodba
§. 1. "Kraljevina Ugarska sjedinjena s Erdeljem i kraljevine Dalmacija, Hrvatska i Slavonija sačinjavaju jednu te istu državnu zajednicu"
§. 2. "...Izvornik ove krunitbene zavjernice ima se uz madjarski sastavak i jezikom hrvatskim sastaviti i kraljevinam Dalmaciji, Hrvatskoj i Slavoniji izdati i u njemu cjelokupnost i zemaljski ustav kraljevinah Dalmacije, Hrvatske i Slavonije zajamčiti. Krunitbena zav ernica od 1867. ima se naknadno takodjer hrvatskim jezikom sastaviti i saboru kraljevinah Dalmacije, Hrvatske i Slavonije što prije poslati".
§. 8. "...da ako bi se radilo oprodaji državne dalmtinsko-hrvatsko-slavonske nepokretne imovine u zemljah i šumah, o tom se i sabor kraljevinah Dalmacije, Hrvatske i Slavonije saslušati ima, pa da se bez njegove privole prodaja takova izvesti ne može."
Here's the text in Hungarian
1868. évi XXX. törvénycikk. a Magyarország, s Horvát-, Szlavon és Dalmátországok közt fenforgott közjogi kérdések kiegyenlítése iránt létrejött egyezmény beczikkelyezéséről.
§. 1. "Magyarország s Horvát-, Szlavon- és Dalmátországok egy és ugyanazon állami közösséget képeznek, mind az Ő Felsége uralkodása alatt álló többi országok, mind más országok irányában."
§. 2. "...E koronázási oklevél eredetije azonban, a magyar szöveg mellett horvát nyelven is szerkesztendő, Horvát-, Szlavon- és Dalmátországoknak is kiadandó, s abban Horvát-, Szlavon- és Dalmátországok integritása és országos alkotmánya is biztosítandó".
§. 8. "... a horvát-szlavon-dalmát országgyülés is, a melynek beleegyezése nélkül eladás nem történhetik. S mindezen tárgyakra nézve a közös pénzügyi kormányzat, mely a közös országgyülésnek felelős magyar királyi pénzügyminister által gyakoroltatik, Horvát-, Szlavon- és Dalmátországokra is kiterjed."
Sorry if I've pasted the wrong part of Hungarian text (my knowledge of Hungarian is very weak), but I hope you get the picture.
I hope I've helped.
Kubura (
talk) 01:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
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What make this so important that it needs to be included in the introduction?
-- nyenyec ☎ 01:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
It should be mentioned how the effects of the treaty determined Hungarian foreign and military policy leading up to and including WW2. -- nyenyec ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
What does it have to do with the treaty of Trianon?
-- nyenyec ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The Kingdom of Hungary was indeed a real House of Terror for the non-Hungarian ethnic groups which resented heavily the occupation of their lands by colonial Hungarians and where permanently under the daily agression of the Magyarisation Laws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 ( talk) 08:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
As to the discussion about whether Trianon is considered as a national tragedy for Hungary or only for Hungarian nationalists, I can confirm the former. But to cite a neutral source, according to Loney Planet Hungary (by Steve Fallon, 2000): "Trianon became the singularly most hated word in Hungary, and the diktátum is often reviled today as if it were imposed on the nation only yesterday." Vay 13:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The Trianon Treaty was not a tragedy, but an act of justice and a liberation for everibody, except for the Hungarian right-wing nationalists. But, if actually the Treaty of Trianon is seen as a national falure by the mainstream of the Hungarian people, this fact would be a real tragedy for the entire Europe, because an entire people is still imperial and expansionist-minded. What is really the percent of the Hungarians which are against Trianon (expansionist-minded and right - wing extremists) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 ( talk) 08:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
PANONIAN insists on the fact that plebiscites were held in Alba Iulia and Novi Sad, reverting a version by HunTomy. According to a neutral (Croatian) source: "For this reason, it is surprising that the winning forces of the First World War did not adopt the principle of self-determination (which they themselves emphasized in the context of Wilson’s 11 Points) and conduct a plebiscite in Vojvodina." 1 According to a Romanian source, there was indeed a plebiscite in Alba Iulia: a plebiscite of all Romanians in Transylvania and Hungary, and later an other one in Cernauti: a plebiscite of all Romanians. 2. It is fair to tell that this was not a vote by all inhabitants of the territories concerned, the electorate having been the Romanian community. I will not revert to HunTomy's version, but wait for PANONIAN's sources. Vay 19:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
It's disgusting how extreme nationalists hustling here who say that there were plebiscites in the historical Hungary. There was some congresses where some extreme sepetarists declared something supperted by foreign powers. Abominable....
HunTomy 2006.01.19.
I wrote now that there were no plebiscites held in the "Hungarian majority areas", because it is why you object to this, right? But to say that there were no any plebiscites and that non-Hungarian peoples were separated from Hungary against their will is simply wrong. They did said what is their will. PANONIAN (talk) 17:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not naive. Who wants to live in a balcan level country? Transylvania became part of an Eastern Europen country, which is poor, undeveloped and corrupt. Vojvodina now belongs to the balcan. Very joyful. And i would not talk about the level of Subcarpathia (which is now belongs to Ukraine)... Endre Ady did not want to seperate from Hungary just wrote critics about the social system of the contemporary Hungary. Or you can read "És ha Erdélyt elveszik?" (And what will happen if they took Transylvania?) from Ady from 1912
And remember: the "magyarisation" was a natural process not dictatorial like romanians, czeckslovaks and yugoslavs did after 1920. This is a great difference... (This was added by 81.182.105.231 dsl51b669e7.pool.t-online.hu).
Haha you are so funny! Milanmm 14:50, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, Vojvodina "do not belong to the Balkans". As an native Vojvodinian I can tell you that Vojvodina is still in Central Europe where it always was, and present day Serbia is both, Balkanic and Central European country, as well as Serbs are both, Balkanic and Central European people. So, please do not teach me where I live, ok? PANONIAN (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Ask some people from the real central or western europe about serbia. Serbia is primarily balcanic. I know what is the balcanic character.
The question was about Vojvodina. The geographical, physical and natural region Balkans (one of Europe's 11 such regions) ends at the Sava river and at the Danube in Serbia, i.o.w. Vojvodina is not part of the Balkans. If we add a historical point of view, it is not part of the Balkans all the more. Juro 20:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
From the "real" Central Europe? And I live in the "false" one then, right? Please... As Juro explained, geographical borders of Balkans are clear. As for cultural borders of Balkans some people claim that those are same as the borders of the former Ottoman Empire in Europe, thus most of the neighbouring parts of Hungary, Romania, and Croatia are culturally Balkanic too, but that was not the point. PANONIAN (talk) 20:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is wrong to put "new Hungarian state" in the first paragraph since the state following the Trianon dictate was the same Kingdom of Hungary, albeit dismembered. Also, instead of a simple "agreement", I would insist to put "enforced agreement" since Hungary did not voluntarily renounce two thirds of its historical territory but the country signed the treaty under duress. 81.183.183.18 21:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
If the Kingdom of Hungary did not exist after the Compromise, what did the acronym k.u.k refer to? (just a brief question...). The truth is, the Kingdom of Hungary had retained its existence since St. Stephen's coronation, even the Austrian emperors ruled the country as Hungarian kings (they had to be crowned by St. Stephen's Holy Crown in order to be considered legal rulers). Thus Hungary was not a hereditary province of Austria, but as an independent kingdom, part of the Habsburg Empire. (As opposed to like Slovakia, which name is always used by Slovak nationalists for the medieval history of Northern Hungary, it never existed as a separate administrative entity, it was always an integral part of the Kingdom of Hungary.) 84.2.101.172 12:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting that Hungarians themselves claimed in 1918/1919 that their new independent state have no continuity with the Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary, and therefor their new state was not a kingdom, but REPUBLIC ( Hungarian Democratic Republic and Hungarian Soviet Republic after it). Problem is that Hungarians in that time did not know what will be the borders of their new independent state. When borders of independent Hungary were defined in 1920, Hungarian nationalists who were not satisfied with these borders changed the story about the continuity and now claimed that Hungary have continuity with the former kingdom (the country was even officially named kingdom again, no matter that it did not had a king, but only regent). Thus, the whole story about continuity is a story about "right" to territories outside of the Hungarian borders, and its purpose is to justify border changes in favor of Hungary. Of course, the real question is why now in the 21st century somebody have need to talk about continuity of Hungary. Just imagine how would look if somebody would start talking about continuity of France or continuity of United Kingdom. PANONIAN (talk) 00:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with continuity, since in 1918/1919, for a brief period, Hungary was a republic and a Soviet republic, so obviously, they rejected any kind of continuity with the old kingdom (the Communists even went as far as renouncing their claim to Hungarian territorial integrity, however it is true that later on, Béla Kun's army beat the crap out of the Czechs and nearly liberated Felvidék, but this is off topic). As soon as legitimacy was restored in the name of the Holy Crown, continuity was restored, as well. Enigma1 22:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Apart from continuity, a section detailing the economic and cultural consequences of the Trianon Dictate would be most welcome, describing that the main driving force behind the treaty was to disempower a united, and highly prosperous economic region by dissolving the historical Hungary into more backward puppet states. Also, a forced and systematic destruction of Hungarian cultural instututions (schools, theaters, universities - like in Pozsony and Kolozsvár), mass expulsion and deportation of Hungarians should be documented objectively.
Enigma1 22:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The country was NOT a prosperous region, it was a very backward country, especially Hungary. People were leaving the country in masses (hundreds of thousands). So, read a book of fairy tales or something and let normal people do their work, OK ? Juro 06:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
You don't like the truth very much now, do you? Yes, there was mass emigration to America (mostly from poverty-ridden areas which were mostly inhabited by Rusyns or - incidentally - Slovaks) but the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and Hungary as a whole underwent its most prosperous growth period in the area, much of the current infrastructure (roads, railways, does the Kassa-Oderberg railway ring a bell?) was built in that period. But even after the dissolution of the Monarchy, Hungary always remained much more prosperous and westernized than the successor states. Take Czechoslovakia for instance in which the so-called "state-forming" nations were much less advanced than the "subjugated" Germans and Hungarians. 81.182.209.170 20:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello PANONIAN (talk)! I think these borders became international borders by signing of the Treaty of Trianon by all sides. There were a lot of military movement in the region after November 1918 and I don't think, that you would accept that the border of Romania was in the middle of Budapest. I agree however, that there were only little clashes with the Serbian Army after December 1918 and the Serbian occupation zone existed as Serbian territory in this period (incuding today's South Hungary). The fully recognized international borders of Hungary were set by the Treaty of Trianon.
kelenbp 13:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The sentence "Many Hungarians consider the treaty a national tragedy still today." is correct. I can't find any sources right now asserting this, but in fact if you google for "Trianon" and see the bulk quantity of heated discussions in Hungarian going on on various sites, that should be proof enough. K issL 07:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes for Hungarians Treaty of Trianon is tragedy but for Slovaks thats Victory in independence from that time hatefull empire called Hungary of whatever Yes its our history and We are Independent now. As I been reading that we was last developed region in Hungary..Yes its true Hungary was bad master for as Slovaks... User:Marek.kvackaj 23:32, 9 october 2006 (UTC)
You had a new state, but it did not function, because it had most economic ties to Great Hungary! You had a vast land, full of minority! Didn't you think you got too much? Hungary didn't start any wars, Austrians did! I respect you achieved independence, but you got too much land, you should have reality sense, even today.
As a matter of fact, the Magyar government was keen on war (though Tisza was against it). But in any case, the Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy couldn't have survived without a victorious war. This was not one. As to being bad masters, it is true, that around 1890s there was a wide-scale Hungarinisation (magyarosítási) campaign in Hungary. The mad Hungarian elite was sawing the branch of the tree on which they sat. Nevertheless, many Hungarian did feel that Trianon was a national tragedy (which, of course, was not). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 13:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Speaking about Trianon only the 1920 official census numbers matter not before or later ten years, although the 1930 and 1941 censuses are mentioned to indicate the process of slow decline until WW2. This is not a place for Czechoslovakian propaganda numbers which lack any official census background. In Hungarian sources I didn't find any distinction in the 1920 census like Slovak or "Slovak-speaking" so present any evidence that these higher numbers were part of the 1920 official census and not a Czechoslovakian claim. Zello 19:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
And did you find them for 1910 (e.g.)? Because it is very difficult to find such detailed data in full - I myself found them (for 1910) only by coincidence. Secondly, it is interesting that you call Hungarian figures "Czechoslovak propaganda numbers" as soon as you do not like them. (If I added real "propaganda" numbers the whole list would be even much worse for you) Finally, I have given the source; and after all, I can even delete the Czechoslovak estimate, the Hungarian numbers are quite enough. Juro 19:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah, yes, and as for your notice board remark regarding the "slow decline": 1920: 145 000 Slovaks vs. 1930: 100 000 Slovaks [using your (wrong) numbers] - do you call this a "slow" decline??? I got used to Hungarian propaganda in the meantime, but this cannot be even qualified as an exaggeration. Juro 19:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The "wrong" numbers are from Romsics' book about Hungary in the 20th century. He says that these numbers show the the minorities according to the MOTHER-LANGUAGE data of the 1920 census. So where are your higher numbers from és what they mean? Zello 19:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The whole population of Hungary increased between 1920 and 1930 so higher numbers are natural for minorities. There is no reason to use misleading 1930 data for 1920 when we have an official census in 1920.
Zello 19:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Juro, the total population of Hungary was 7,9 million in 1920, 8,6 million in 1930 and 9,3 million in 1941 (without regained territories). This is a rapid increase in absolute numbers so highly misleading to use 1930 data for 1920. It is possible that the situation was different with the different nationalities ie. probably Germans increased in absolute numbers and Slovaks decreased, I don't know. But the only possible way to establish post-Trianon data is to use the 1920 census numbers and mention in brackets your claim that "the official Hungarian statistical data from 1920 say that 399,170 citizens speak [speak well/have a good command - difficult to translate] of the Slovak language" together with the citation. Although I don't understand at all - if the 1920 census numbers show "mother-language" as Romsics said what is this 400 000? Probably there were another question for second language knowledge or I don't know. Zello 05:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
You will not believe me, but I perfectly understand what you mean (the first thing I looked at was the 7.9 vs. 8.6 difference). I will try to divide this into several points:
Juro 18:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I also understand your point but I think the distinction wasn't between "true" Slovaks and "untrue" Slovaks but Slovaks by mother tongue/most frequently spoken language and Slovaks by national identity. The first should be the higher number because in the post-Trianon atmosphere it wasn't very popular to declare yourself Slovak although the language remained. There are other reasons mostly the process of assimiliation, merging of Hungarian (citizen) identity with Magyar identity etc.
But you are right: the only way to decide in the numbers is to look up more data. The National Library is open yet (until 1 August) so I will go there in Saturday and try to collect every information we need from the 1920 and 1930 census publications together with exact questions. Zello 14:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I went to the National Library and found the census data at last.
There were the same two questions in 1920 and 1930:
There was no question about nationality in Hungarian censi until 1941.
The second question was about bilingualism and produced much higher data for minorities as the first one (of course the same is true for the Magyar language - it was mother language for 7'147'053 people in 1920 and was spoken by 7'722'441 people at the same time).
It is true that the percentage, the absolute numbers and even bilingualism was decreasing in the next decade. I have the same data for 1930 and all numbers are lower.
There is no way to establish the number of minorities from the second question. That question only shows how much people were able to speak Slovak. Among them certainly were people whose parents or grandparents spoke Slovak as a mother language but the family began assimilation. But there were people also who lived together with Slovaks and were able to express themselves on the language of their neighbours. It is the same as many Slovaks in present-day Komárno and Csallóköz speak some Hungarian but they are not Magyars at all. The high number of German speakers is obviosly a cultural phenomenon as German was widely taught in Hungarian secondary schools (ie. the same as the high number of English speakers now). We are not able to separate these two groups among the bilinguals in lack of other data. The problem wasn't raised by me but demographic historian József Kovacsics who presented the census data. Zello 18:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Does that mean that the second question (if it really went exactly like you are presenting it here - you probably mean "speak" not "spoke") resulted in data like "xy speak French", "xy speak English" etc., or what? This is very strange for a population census, if this was really the whole question without any additions. I can hardly imagine that the results contain the numbers of e.g. English speakers, but they should then... And as for Slovaks, the situation was different in 1910, there were no Slovak schools whatsoever anymore and it is impossible that there were 150 000 Slovaks, but also 150 000 (!) Magyars (unless they have at least a Slovak parent) speaking that language just because they are their neighbours, especially given that in 1910 the use of the language in the public was sanctioned (although officially not, of course). Such numbers - i.e. resulting only from "neigbourship" - would be impossible even in present-day Finland or so. Juro 19:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there are English-speakers, French-speakers, Italian-speakers also (with smaller numbers as these languages were only spoken by the elite). As for the Slovaks there can be different groups among this plus 250 000 people:
I'm sure that the most populous of this groups were people with Slovak ancestry but 1, nobody knows their number; 2, they declared themselves that their mother language was already Magyar that time. Zello 20:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not able to insert my references but here are:
Zello 20:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean by "unable to insert" ??? Juro 03:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Although I see in the history section that you gave your reference but I don't see it in the article. But why? Zello 12:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Because I deleted it yesterday :)) (it is not used in the article anymore as a source). Juro 18:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- - - -
The sum total (10.4%) with a non-Magyar mother tongue, does not equal the individual percentages listed in the article, the sum of which is only 9.0%. I suspect the percentage figure for German should be higher. I cannot tell if it is the total that's wrong or the individual figures. Could someone check? The following is the current text in the article:
According to the 1920 census 10.4 % of the population spoke one of the minority languages as mother language:
- 551,211 German (6.9%)
- 141,882 Slovak (1.8%)
- 23,760 Romanian (0.3%)
- 36,858 Croatian (0.5%)
- 17,131 Serb (0.2%)
- 23,228 other Southern Slavic dialects, mainly Bunjevac and Šokac (0.3%)
Bardwell 17:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The article is full of them:
etc. bogdan 15:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
It's well accepted the idea that Austria-Hungary became a second-class country. Indeed Austria-Hungary also experienced economic progress especially in the late 19th century (without relying on colonization), but remained a European country with a relatively underdeveloped economy, a second-class regional power. Can one argue that is not true? -- Eliade 07:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely agree - this is why I deleted the sentence with my revert together with the other problematic new paragraph inserted by Giordano. Zello 18:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
There were big differences in the economic development of the countries and provinces of Austria-Hungary. We are speaking about a country which was so varied that contained Tyrol and Bukovina. These differences were several hundred years old and products of totally different historical development. The Monarchy as an integrated econimic unit had a positive effect on the underdeveloped provinces in the second half of 19th century. There was a process of regional integration and economic development which was broken by WW1. As for second-class country - Austria-Hungary was traditionally a member of the "European concert", one of the main powers of the continent because of it size and military strength. Tsarist Russia was more underdeveloped than Austria-Hungary but wasn't considered a second-class country at all. Zello 17:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Austria-Hungary was the successor of the Habsburg Empire which existed in Europe almost 500 years. That's not some decades. Zello 18:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Every solution is "temporary" because every country disappear sooner or later. The Habsburg Empire with its 500 years lifetime certainly existed long enough to shape the history of Europe. Zello 16:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
It may also be worthwhile to enter into the analysis that today many of the successor states are economic disasters. The only consistent exception to this is Austria (and even that only after WWII). Slovenia has been successful for the last decade, if this tendency keeps up, all the better, on the other hand Transylvania nowadays is much more below the European average than it was during Habsburg times, it is hardly above the Third World. One has to wonder whether the purpose of the treaty was to create a new Dark Ages. And as far as Juro's comment: no, Czechoslovakia was never an economic superpower. The Czech side was reasonably industrialized, and this had some benefits, but to consider CS among the world's strongest economies is a severe overstatement. (Have you driven a Skoda before it became VW?)
The A-H was a regional superpower with a reasonable economic status. It was not behind the "West" economically: the situation of those who emigrated to the US was hardly better after emigration, since they usually fell for the "in America the streets are paved with gold" myth. It is also questionable in the case of Fiume, Istria, Friuli, Trieste whether they were better off during the monarchy than afterwards. Considering ethnic strife certainly not.
At last: to suggest ethnic bias or racism is not inappropriate nor is it POV. After all the article itself states that Sopron was the only place allowed to have a plebiscite (this fact renders the censuses made after the treaty somewhat questionable, since the new countries forced its citizens to take loyalty oaths: for example the family of the writer Hamvas refused to take the Slovak nationality oath, and were for this reason expelled from Slovakia). Giordano Giordani 09:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Giordano XY, the best answer to your edits and comments is that they are just a big mess and collection of nonsense. What Panonian says is very trivial and clear to everybody from Central Europe, but obviously someone has to tell you that explicitely. As for Czechoslovakia, if you need a number it was among the 10 most advanced countries in the whole world between the two world wars. And we could go on like this endlessly. So just do no try to invent associations where there are no associations. A treaty is not responsible for the history of the 20th century. Juro 15:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
If a sub-chapter on the nationalities of post-Trianon Hungary is included, a similar sub-chapter should detail the history of the Hungarian minorities in the successor states. Árpád 08:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Jesus, like always with you: every single sentence you are saying is a lie - in other words it is so wrong that actually the exact opposite holds (current Hungarian "folk" is mostly derived from the lokal Slavic folk and not vice versa etc. etc.). Irrespective of this: Like always, you have written a typical irrational long fascist hypernational elaborate here that is completeley unrelated to the very technical topic at hand. But even if you wrote a poem, that does not change the fact that what you have been trying to deny above holds because these are pure numbers and logics. You can equally claim that the Earth is plane, that is the same. And like always: Any further such lies will be deleted by me, if this wikipedia and other Hungarian users are unable to cope with you, this is the only way how to prevent the spread of fascism and idiotism in this wikipedia. Juro 12:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
While I can't find a single statement of Árpád that I would back up myself, I'm puzzled as to how he is either fascist, or a vandal. There exist established ways on Wikipedia to deal with irrational claims, or even trolling. Further reading at WP:NPA, WP:DFTT, and WP:CIVIL. Please. K issL 14:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
See the comment on my talk page. And Arpad is only one of his 100 accounts (e,g, HunTomy), so you do not know the history, qnd I have removed all his explicit insults from the talk pages, therefore I cannot find them (I should have collected them). And I am happy that finally someone has noticed the problem he poses here. And as for being fascist - he turns any issue here into the "divine Hungarians" - "primitive Hungarian neigbours" issue and does not even try to hide that. Read the above discussion - what do folk songs have to do with the economy of A-H??? That is pure fascism. Juro 16:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC) P.S.: And most importantly, he is a permanent lier, the only way of reaction to his "contributions" is to say that every sentence is a lie. He also quite openly tries by seemingly "disussing" to place his long chauvinist views on the talk pages of the wikipedia in order to increase their hits in google and I will not allow that (when others do not see that, I see that). Juro 16:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
FUNDAMENTALLY THE PROPOSAL OF ARPAD IS APPOSITE: IF THERE IS A SECTION ON TREATMENT OF MINORITIES IN HUNGARY IT IS ONLY FAIR THAT THERE IS ONE ON THE TREATMENT OF HUNGARIANS IN SLOVAKIA, ROMANIA, ETC.
This should be the main point of the discussion, not personal attacks (like calling someone "liar", or "fascist vandal", etc.). This way of arguing is extremely primitive. Alphysikist 08:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yikes! I'm very hesitant to enter such a heated discussion as I do not want to get flamed, but as folk music (one of my favorite subjects!) has entered the discussion I feel I may have something to contribute. As near as I can figure out from Árpád's strange post at the beginning of this section, he seems to be practically denying the existence of the Slovak nation by pointing out that Slovak folk music sounds just like Hungarian folk music.....well, actually, Slovak folk music DOESN'T sound exactly like Hungarian folk music. There are definite close similarities--the pentatonic scale, frequent use of the fifth at the cadence, sometimes they use the old Magyar pattern of repeating a phrase a third or fourth higher, etc. But, despite the close similarities, there are differences as well, mainly rhythmic (due to the great difference between Magyar and Slavic languages!) and also melodic. (Read Kodály Zoltán's book Folk Music of Hungary--it's excellent!) But jeez, similarities in folk music doesn't mean the Slovaks don't exist as a nation, or whatever you were driving at. It just means that the Slovaks and Magyars have lived right next to each other for centuries. People move around, they meet strangers, swap tall tales, folklore, and especially exchange tunes! I would also here point out that not ALL Slovak music even sounds Hungarian. A lot of it is very much more "Slavic-sounding", more like the music of their other neighbors the Czechs, but it too is its own music. Please, as annoyed as you may be by the ongoing political mess between Hungary and Slovakia, please don't try to claim there really are no Slovaks, especially not on the basis of folk music... :)
With hopes for friendship between peoples,
K. Lastochka 05:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I see you have already been involved in at least one 3RR. State which part of my contribution (16:30, September 4, 2006) you think is not factual or not encyclopedic or disputable before erasing again. I will be happy to discuss it here.
Yours, with all my love,
Bardwell 21:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear PANONIAN, I think you are mistaken. But to err is human and I forgive you. If you would care to check facts, undisputable facts, you would see that Hungary was not only uninvited to the conferences where the Treaty was decided but she wasn't even allowed to present her case. This DOES mean that the Treaty WAS imposed on her. The fact that she signed it is irrelevant - in the circumstances of the time she had no other option. Not signing the treaty was not a realistic option. I see you are quick to apply 3RR and to make threats. This is quite uncalled for and it demonstrates an aptitude for the kind of tragic ethnic hate witnessed so recently between Serbs and their neighbour states. This here is a forum where you can use reasoned arguments to make your case. Have you ever read the Treaty? I have. Have you ever researched the circumstances and the actual conduct of the conferences? I have. Have you provided sources? I have. You can check them. In particular, I would refer you to Professor Macartney's work October Fifteenth. Read chapter one, pages 3 -24. Macartney was a well-respected expert on the subject; a research fellow at All Souls College, Oxford. He was English (probably Scottish if you wish me to be pedantic). You can hardly accuse him of being 'nationalistic' in the context we are discussing.
With best wishes to you and good reading, your fellow wikipedian:
Bardwell 00:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
My dear PANONIAN, If your other contributions to Wikipedia are as accurate and well-informed as this one:
then, I’m afraid they are all equally worthless. I have no idea whatsoever who user 195.56.249.131 is. It certainly isn’t me. You have my permission to ask the powers that be at wikipedia to confirm or deny whether my ISP has any connection with 195.56.249.131. Take the challenge! If you or wikipedia can show a link, I’ll pay you £100,000. I am not even asking you to pay me a penny if you lose the challenge. It would be immoral of me to take your money on a challenge I know for sure you can only lose. Your allegation is completely and totally baseless. Why do you do it?
Bardwell 04:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore: For precise reference to terminology of "imposed on Hungary" see: The Oxford Dictionary of 20th Century History 1914-1990. Oxford University Press (1992)
ISBN
0192116762, page 470, which reads:
For a precise definition of the meaning of the word cede, I am quoting from The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (1933) 3rd Rev. ed. (1965) [No ISBN]
Bardwell 09:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
For the record!
If a definition is good enough for inclusion in an internationally and academically respected publication issued by one of the world’s most respected university printing presses then I dare say it is sufficiently clean and authoritative for inclusion in a wikipedia article. I have reinserted the following reference, and will keep on doing so because I do not believe in appeasing bullies.
Bardwell 16:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
And what happens when some "internationally and academically respected publications issued by one of the world’s most respected university printing presses" happen to contradict each other? K issL 18:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Then it is proper to include at least both viewpoints. The Mitterrand quote lends further support to the viewpoint advocated by myself and user
Bardwell. It may also be that these views are underrepresented, since it was the winning powers who imposed the Trianon dictats on the people of the Carpathian basin, and they (that is to say their media, press, etc.) are less likely to question the rational of the "treaty" for a variety of reasons. Considering these circumstances, the fact that our viewpoints are supported it is all the more reason to include them in the article.
Giordano Giordani 23:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The treaty was imposed upon Hungary that's a fact. Even by common sense: does anybody think that Hungary would accepted the loss of two-thirds of its territory without utmost constraint? Would any country in the the world ever made such an "agreement"? The Treaty of Trianon was a dictate, and Hungary hadn't got any other choice. There was no army, the economy was ruined, big parts of the country were still under occuptation. If Hungary wouldn't signed the treaty other regions would be annexed by Romania and Serbia. Agreements are made by two willing parties. The Treaty of Trianon wasn't an agreement but a total surrender of a collapsed country. Zello 01:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Right, "agreement" was a bit of an euphemism. However, for the definition of the lead, I still prefer not to have any words that can be considered emotive. Any interested reader will have enough understanding to know anyway that peace treaties usually contain the winners' will. K issL 09:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Kiss1, - It is a fuzzy editorial assumption that the reader of an encyclopedic article will have any prior knowledge or understanding of the subject of an article for them to realise that peace treaties " usually contain the winners' will ". In any case, why do you think it is wrong to state it? And on another note altogether - what kind of a justification is there to repeatedly remove source references, as you have done with the ref. to OUP Dict. of 20C History, when it is a clear wiki policy to encourage, nay, to specifically request, the provision of references.
Bardwell 09:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think other points-of-view shold be explained in text, not in the lead. Zello 10:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Even the very best dictionary is sort of irrelevant as a reference about a peace treaty. K issL 10:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Kiss1 – You appear to be justifying repeated deletes of a definition from a specialist historical dictionary as “sort of irrelevant as a reference to a peace treaty.” Isn’t your justification a little fuzzy? Isn’t your justification a personal point of view in itself and as such clearly not a sufficient reason to delete another editor's reference? However, sat asside, would you be happier with a more authorative source? How about the Encyclopaedia Britannica? Would you accept that as a reasonable source? Here are a couple of relevant citations from the Fifteenth Edition, Rev. (2002) [ ISBN 0-85229-787-4]:
There is, of course, more, much more and in much more severe languages, but all I am trying to demonstrate is that
Bardwell 14:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
"Unrightful" depends on the reader's definition of what is right, and therefore, once you insert this word into any article, you've violated WP:NPOV, and most importantly, the rule of thumb " Let the facts speak for themselves". K issL 10:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
- - - - -
Panonian, your sentence “(LOL Bardwell, you even do not trying to hide the fact that you are same person with Milanmm)” is not English! It isn’t even bad English, it is nonsense. You obviously cannot write in English. I am now wondering if you can read English? If you can, please read my reasons for the changes to the lead paragraph. You can find them below.
With lots of love,
Bardwell 18:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
You are riding on the issue out of context. The fact is that without the entente, Horthy would have never got in power, the few hundred Hungarian drunkard gentry around him would have been easily beaten by sticks by a few strong steelworkers. Signing the treaty was an exchange for this. From 1919, he hoped that for his stringent anti-communism he would have got territorial compensation from the entente (Horthy's memoirs). The fact remains that until Horthy, Hungary resisted the treaty diplomatically (Károlyi's govenment, and to some extent the Council Republic) and militarily (the Council Republic), thus it was forced upon Hungary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the Mitterrand quote is an interesting one, but it doesn't say a word about this treaty specifically, so it's better to keep it out of here, at least until there is a very comprehensive and very NPOV description of why and how Hungarians consider the treaty unjust (which is unlikely to happen too soon with all the disruptive nationalist behavior around the article, meaning all "sides" not just one). In such a situation, even if it could be fair to mention some details in the lead, a short NPOV version is better than anything.
As for "ceded", the connotations for this word are clearly not as neutral and non-emotive as the formulation originally in the article. Let's not start comparing the world's web-based dictionaries for a point as simple as that. What's wrong with the current version?
K issL 14:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The Treaty of Trianon dealt specifically with issues relating to Hungary. This is evidenced by the very title of the treaty: " Treaty of Peace Between The Allied and Associated Powers and Hungary ” ( see: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/versa/tri1.htm).
From an editorial point of view this wiki article on the Treaty of Trianon should, I think, deal only with the treaty and not with claims, arguments, explanations, etc., relating to extraneous ethnic and territorial issues, which it would be more appropriate to list under other headings in the wiki system, especially as they tend to be divisive.
The Treaty of Trianon is in itself clearly defined under XIV parts, as follows:
From a logical editorial perspective, these are the only sections that should populate the article. The article should be void of all personal interpretations and opinions. One should bear in mind that the article is an encyclopaedic entry. It is not supposed to be a vehicle for opinions. One cannot be more accurate or more neutral than by quoting the original document without extraneous embroidery. With this in mind it is my intention to reformat the Treaty of Trianon article in conformity with the above because I firmly believe that this would conform totally and indisputably with wikipedia objectives to provide accurate and unbiased information.
I hereby invite anyone interested in this subject to state their views with regards to whether they consider this approach to be sufficient and fair to resolve differences of opinion about what the Treaty of Trianon was.
Bardwell 10:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
We don't simply publish sources but write an encyclopaedia, even it is difficult sometimes. That's not the right way to reach neutrality. Zello 19:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
nyenyec and
zello:
Thanks for your comments.
I think your points are valid. The problem I see with the current version has primarily to do with the inadequacy of the leadeer and with the determination of some parties to stick to wishy-washy weasel definition in order to obscure the fact that this agreement was a clear case of victors imposing their terms on the vanquished. Not for nothing is there a fair warning above the leading article cautioning readers about this. If you have been following the various reverts and erasures and the arguments over the past few days then no doubt you would be aware that some parties here object to and erase words such as ‘imposed’ and ‘ceded’ in favour of alternatives that do not convey to the casual reader the true and generally accepted and acknowledged fact that the treaty was imposed on Hungary. I find this quite incomprehensible as this terminology is in no way derogatory to any of the successor states. Some users have even gone as far as to repeatedly eradicate reference to a book from a highly-respected academic institution just because it has the ‘temerity’ to define the treaty as “imposed on Hungary”. Precisely in order to sidestep this zealous opposition by some parties to calling a spade a spade, have I come up with the suggestion that by confining the article to undeniable facts, i.e. to the actual provisions of the treaty itself, it should be possible to get rid of weasel words and of ambiguity and to have that warning banner removed from the top and to bring an end to the bickering.
Looking at the
Treaty of Versailles article, which is the natural twin for the Treaty of Trianon, one can see the phrase “ Terms imposed on Germany …” etc. and I fail to see why this terminology should be objected to so vehemently in the Trianon article. I would be interested to hear users’ views on whether the Treaty of Versailles article could be or should be used as a model for Trianon.
Bardwell 22:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe Bardwell's opinions (and the like) are stand-outs here with regards to intelligent and rational thought, and they display a notable lack of extremist opinion, which this talkpage is sadly littered with. Therefore it is no surprise to me that this view and proposal is being attacked. I concur with Bardwell. Hunor-Koppany
See this map: http://terkepek.adatbank.transindex.ro/kepek/netre/169.gif According to the map, a small part of KOH was also included into Poland. I think this should be noted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Trianon#Frontiers_of_Hungary However, I do not know when exactly this area was included into Poland. Does somebody have more information about this? PANONIAN (talk) 21:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The small territory is still in Poland. The northern parts of Árva (Orava) and Szepes (Spis) counties with polish majority population was annexed by Poland, as I know, by the decision of an arbitration comitee in 1920. You can find a detailed map under: http://terkeptar.transindex.ro/legbelso.php3?nev=165 After the Munich conference in 1938 Poland annexed more Polish inhabited territories along the Slovak-Polish border. After the German attack against Poland in 1939, Slovakia regained those territories. -- Kelenbp 17:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi everybody.
I am really tired from fights here. Each my contribution is simply ignored. People are all the time reverting to their version without a discussion. I was even accused to be somebode else, what is ridiculus.
I propose to build the article from the beginning. Everybody can say his opinion about each part and we will try to find a version that everybody will agree with. I do not want to find a version that majority agrees with, but everybody agrees with. Let's base everything on facts. In this way any "puppet" would be useless.
Mentioning your nationality would help to see somebody else's point. I am Slovak.
OK, I would start with the beginning. 1) "The Treaty of Trianon was a peace treaty that regulated the situation of the new Hungarian state" - this is only partially true as the treaty regulated the situation of all succesor countries (see for example: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/versa/tri3.htm "Each of the States to which territory of the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy is transferred, and each of the States arising from the dismemberment of that Monarchy, including Hungary, shall assume responsibility for a portion of the unsecured bonded debt of the former Hungarian Government as it stood on July 28, 1914, calculated on the basis of the ratio between the average for the three financial years....."
2) "new Hungarian state that replaced the Kingdom of Hungary" - not only thenew Hungarian state that replaced the Kingdom of Hungary
3) "winning powers, their allied countries, and the losing side" - the losing country was Austria-Hungary, not Hungary - so this is not correct, Austro-Hungarian monarchy was not represented by Hungary
Milanmm 15:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
How about a version like this? I've tried to fix the problems you pointed out:
Something like that. I know it's far from perfect, this is why I'm not putting it into the article directly – feel free to improve or criticise it. K issL ( don't forget to vote!) 20:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
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I cannot understand the attraction of wanting to bowdlerize the wording of the Treaty, especially as all such attempts are likely to lead into a quagmire. The surest way to obtain consensus is to stick with simple and undisputable words, where possible taken from the Treaty itself.
The Treaty of Trianon was a peace treaty between Hungary and the Allied and Associated Powers of WW1. This is clearly stated, in bold letters, at the top of the Treaty! It has nothing to do with the former Austro-Hungarian Empire. Why labour on inventing a new name for it? This traety is between Hungary and the Allied and Associated Poers! How many Treaties of Trianon are there?
The Treaty does NOT “regulate the situations of the states that replaced the former Kingdom of Hungary”, It does not regulate the size of any of the Allied and Associated Powers’ armies, or armaments, or the ratio of officers to men in the army, or restrict their manufacture of tanks and aeroplanes, or the building of high-power wireless telegraphy stations, and half a million other things. It simply spells out, specifically with regard to Hungary what she may or may not do. It regulates only Hungary! This is not unusual, after all, this is a peace treaty. And like in all peace treaties that are signed between victors and vanquished, it contains the terms on which the winners are willing to bring an end to a state of war. So why not just stick to the simple fact and state the simple truth in a simple, unoffending language - The Peace Treaty set out the terms on which the victorious powers were willing to bring an end the state of war with Hungary. Full stop! No need for inventive language or euphemisms. Is this such a terrible thing? Please, tell me by all means, what's objectionable about this? Where is the problem? Bardwell 22:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
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I cannot see how one can be more neutral than by stating that The Treaty of Trianon was a peace treaty between Hungary and the Allied and Associated Powers of WW1 To portray this as “The Treaty of Trianon was a peace treaty that regulated the situation of the states that replaced the former Kingdom of Hungary, part of pre-war Austria-Hungary, after World War I.” is an interpretaion of the traety’s title. Like all interpretaions, it represents a POV. Whether it is a right or wrong POV, neutral or biased, is irrelevan to the argument when the wording is disputed and when the precise definition is available and can be cited, as is the case in this instance. From this it follows, I think, and please correct me if I am wrong, that I, or anyone else so inclined, would have full justification to remove it, as an unsourced and uncited interpretation, and replace it with a cited version which is NOT an interpretation but the real McCoy. (Do we really want a never-ending reverts war over this?)
As for the treaty ― this traety, the treaty with Hungary, that is ― "was a peace treaty that regulated the situation of the states that replaced the former Kingdom of Hungary", can anyone provide any relevant citations for this from within the text of the Treaty? I think this wording, well-intentioned though as it may be, is but an inept disguise of what the treaty was - peace terms offered by the victors to the vanquished. There is nothing to be ashamed about this. This was, and probably still is, the way of the world. All the actors in this drama had made their stage exits a long time ago and are now dead and burried. Let the ink on the document speak for itself. Bardwell 16:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
What bout this version?
The Treaty of Trianon is a peace treaty between Hungary and the Allied and Associated Powers signed on June 4, 1920, at the Grand Trianon Palace at Versailles, France. The winning parties of the Treaty included the "Allied Powers" ( United States, Britain, France, Italy, and Japan) and the smaller "Associated Powers" (especially Romania, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, and Czechoslovakia) of World War I. The losing party was Hungary alone, since Austria-Hungary had by this time disintegrated. The Treaty regulated the situation of the states that replaced the former Kingdom of Hungary, part of pre-war Austria-Hungary, after World War I.
The first sentence characterizes the Treaty in the same way as it is described in its own Preamble. As to the last sentence, it can be illustrated by the articles about obligations of the successor states other than Hungary (namely Article 44, 47, 51, 52, 61). I hope the new proposal adequately addresses all issues that you have raised. Tankred 23:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
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I think this is a step in the right direction and is neatly composed. I would however question the need for singling out and naming, as you have done, the three countries from the Associated Powers. There were outher countries that were given land from Hungary, namely Austria and Italy, and even more countries towards whom Hungary was left with financial or other obligations. So what exactly is the point of naming three countries with an ‘especially’ tag? It only muddies the waters, I think. Don't you agree? If not - why do you think this is necessary?
You might find it interesting to visit wikipedia:No original research. The following are the key operative policy statements:
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Tankred, Hungary was NOT a successor state. To argue otherwise would, I think, invite justifiable charges that the article was interpretive and manipulative. [For ref. to who the successor states were see Macartney: Hungary - a Short History, (1962), page 107, etc.] Irrespective of the above, I don’t think it would be right to pick three of the Associated Powers and drop them into the lead section unless it enhanced the meaning of the lead section, for example: “The principal beneficiaries of territorial adjustment were Romania, The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Yugoslavia), and Czechoslovakia”. The reason for the presence of the names of the principal beneficiaries in the lead section , without a brief explanation, would, I think, be unclear to the reader and therefore, from an editorial perspective, wrong.
Bardwell 10:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The book can be found here: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/macartney/ Bardwell, where is the part correcponding to p. 107? Milanmm 18:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
If you look here:
Allies of World War I, Romania and Serb-Croat-Slovene State are not listed, but Czechoslovakia. Who can explain it?
Milanmm 18:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
My version:
Milanmm 18:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
hi guys, I've just been looking through old bits of the archive here, and WHAT A MESS. For heaven's sake, you all sound like a bunch of schoolchildren fighting on the playground. How about a new rule for discussion here? How about: no one will call any of their fellow editors a fascist, revisionist, chauvinist, troll, vandal or other nasty names that have been thrown around here, and quit accusing people you don't agree with of being sockpuppets of vandals. Are you here to write an article, or to compete for the title of Most Obnoxious Wikipedian, Most Paranoid, Most Childish etc.? Look, Trianon was a messy affair, there are legitimate complaints (and legitimate good things) on all sides. As soon as everyone here stops flinging ethnic/nationalist insults back and forth, some progress might be made. Try putting conspiracy theories behind you and be intelligent Wikipedians please!! K. Lastochka 03:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I hesitate to stir this pot, but there seem to be no citations for the census data here. I have no reason to think any of it is inaccurate, just that the article fails to cite for it. - Jmabel | Talk 01:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
True enough. Another strange thing is that the pre-war census data (which would show a more mixed population) are for areas outside Hungary, while post-war census data (which would show a less mixed population, due to population transfers) is given only for Hungary. Smells like a weasel to me. Causantin 13:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Probably if you read the article you would know that the borders changed between the two dates... Zello 22:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
On reading this article I was struck by the fact that most of the contributors seemed to be writing from a Hungarian, Slovak, Romanian viewpoint. I have therefore added some stuff trying to explain why the Allies took the decisions they did. Please amend as you will! Jameswilson 00:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
If there are "plenty of non-Hungarians who also hold that opinion" then please writte who they are because I know only Hungarians who hold that opinion (the real misleading thing here is to say that "some people" have that opinion, but not to say who those people are) and please do not delete sentence that "non-Hungarians also consider Carpathian Basin their home" - I am not Hungarian and I consider it my home, so with what exactly you have problem here? PANONIAN 20:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
You see, this paragraph is meant to contrast the view of the Hungarians with the view of the Allied Powers, not with the Slovaks and Romanians. Contrasting viewpoints works best when you only present them two at a time: dragging in sentences about the non-Hungarians also thinking the Carpathian Basin was their home turns that clear, concise paragraph about the Hungarians and the Allies into a big confusing mushy mess. Add it somewhere else if you must belabor the obvious, just please don't mess up one of the few well-written paragraphs in this disaster area of an article. K. Lásztocska 16:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)The victorious Allies arrived in France with a black-and-white view of the situation in central Europe which made the outcome inevitable. At the heart of the dispute lay fundamentally different views of the nature of the Hungarian presence in the disputed territories. For the Hungarians the whole of the Carpathian Basin was seen as "home". The western powers and the American press in particular saw the Hungarians as colonial-style rulers who had oppressed the Slavs and Romanians since 1867.
I'm getting really tired of seeing that "weasel words" template up top here. Can somebody please point out the instances of weasel words? I will try and fix them and maybe we can get rid of that ugly tag. K. Lásztocska 13:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I've undone my yesterday's redirect of "trianon"--it now redirects to the disambig page, how it was before. Sorry for any confusion it caused, I guess I should discuss redirects before going all Rouge on you guys. :-) K. Lásztocska 22:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
When you talk about Trianon, you cannot be objective, you should on one side. Even if you are British or American. I am sorry if I write something duplicated, I didn't check the complete archive on this ...
First point: "treaty" is when two sides are agreed on something. This was not this case, the Entente has decided one-sided, so it is simply not a treaty, but a dictatum, so this is a misleading political bias, even today! It is pity, that Hungary was "punished" so much, even if we didn't start the war (WWI) and we had no interest in this war.
Second point: if this is a dictate, then the Entente should have followed the Wilsonian points (discussed before) and should have asked all (!!) regions/areas (not just disputed ones) for plebiscite. If it would have happened, strange thing would have happened to Ciuk county, Cluj-Napoca, Tirgu Mures, West-Transylvania, Kosice, Nitra, Burgenland, North Vojvodina, as at 1920, it was majority of Hungarians (nowadays not true).
Third point: Why the borders are there (why not 20 km away?). It is obvious, it had nothing to do with ethnicity, only politics: the Entente (mostly France) had to dismantle her competition (enemy) the Austrian Empire, so the best case is "divide et impera". But we need to also take care that the Austro-Hungarians will never threaten again. So, they surrounded Austria and Hungary with Entente-linked states, BUT taking care that the defendable mountains AND the startegic RAILWAYs stay out of the hostile area. You can see, why Ruthenian-minority SubCarpathia was given to Czechoslovakia (the Eastern part, later given to Soviet Union), it had very few links with the ethnicity. You would also ask why Oradea or Arad had fallen to Romania, it is clear: railway. Regarding the part "Muraköz" now part of Slovenia, you can still see it on the map, that the region is not an organic part of Slovenia, like a "hump", this was given to Slovenian-Serbo-Croatian Kingdom, because it was rich in oil. The most striking cut off is Burgenland (Őrség) which was given to Austria, which was never part of Austria, which was given to a nation which also lost the war, pls explain to me, why? (Most popular theory is that Hungary was turned to Soviet-Hungary and Entente punished more). Just one small story, which I cannot confirm. During the discussion on the treaty between French and Serbo-Croats on the borders of South, the borders were drawn, and everybody went to sleep, waiting for the Hungarian envoye's who would arrive the next day. During the night, one sergeant sneaked inside the ballroom, and re-drew the border, giving more area to what we today call Croatia. The next day, everybody noticed, but didn't say a word, just ordered to sign the document. Anyway, this "treaty" was just the justification which was already done at that time. The areas were already occupied by nationalistic troops, and at the same time, a strong diplomatic game was going on. It was an easy lobby, as the interest were common. Maybe one more interesting point: the name Bratislava and Belgrade was born in 1918-1920. Bratislava from Vrastislav in 10th century (?) who tought to have built a fortress there, Belgrade was always "Nandorfehervar" = "Bulgarian White Castle", later Bjelovar (? correct me).
Fourth: The behaviour of the newly-brewn states, well, we should not call it ethical. The borders in the "treaty" was clear --- but what did ALL the surrounding armies do? Hungary, having no army to defend itself, was an easy prey. The troops did not stop at the borders, but proceeded on. The Great (?) Entente states did nothing to stop them, Romanian troops even took Budapest, and began looting. How do you attest to this, dear Romanians?
Fifth: So what was the REAL point of the treaty? It is also clear. Great Hungary (not Austria-Hungary) was and still is in a strategic and important position. This is where the "West" is trading with Russia, where the "North" meets "South". This is where the trade routes where going for centuries. This is the region of Europe where the was no famine, and scarsely plague in the Middle Ages (this is not relevant, here, sorry). This Carpathian basin had to be divided with peoples living in hatred, to let them fight their petty small wars. The economy was cut off from the diferent regions, and it was simply not functioning for long time. It started to function after dictatorship, after force.
So what is my proposal to dissolve this stress, which will never subdue, if we (Serbs, Romanians, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Ukraininas, Austrians, Hungarians) should re-unite as federal states, each as independent, but as one market. Kingdom of Hungary was a sacral kingdom, under which the ethnics prospered (if not, then they would have been assimilated). I hate to admit it, but we, Hungarians didn't follow ethnic tolerance after Habsurg dualistic monarchy.
I am open to your thoughts, shoot me :) But please, I have also been brainwashed in my youth, pls dont give me nationalistic bullshit. Abdulka 17:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Robert Grower (member of House of Commons in UK): the Benes dictates were already agreed upon in 1918 summer during secret talks. The study of ethnic divergence was started in Nov. 20th, 1918, in France, stating "Slovakia is a mere myth. The Slovak tribes in North Hungary have never made a state before... The borders drawn by French experts do not cross Danube, is not including Bratislava, where for each 14 Slovak there are 86 Hungarian and German".
Henri Pozzi: "Regarding Trianon, it was not about who was right, but rather, who has the interest to have have the truth granted to.(...) The great peacemakers did not have elementary knowledge on the geography, the ethnicity, the history of the nations to settle. Wilson, for example, has always mixed Slovaks with Slovenes. Lloyd Goerge was not more knowledgable. (...) The Romanians behaved like chickens, when they were on the frontline or in the line of fire, and when defeated, they behaved like traitors. After having won the war by others, they had the guts to ask for the reckoning during the Peace Conference."
Henri Clemenceau: "The audaciousness of the Romanians are boundless"
Smuts (South African general): He requested plebiscite for Transylvania, Slovakia, SubCarpathia and Croatia. He told, this right was given to Germany in terms of Holstein, Silezia, end East-Prussia. Even though supported from English, Japanese, Polish and Russian side, the Czech, Romanian and Serb side blocked, in fear of fiasco.
Abbey Weterle (speech in French Parliament in 17 June 1921): "I am confident that in case of plebiscite, neither the Romanians, nor the Serbs would not have received even 1/3 of the votes."
Lloyd George (memoirs, dated 7. Oct. 1929): "The complete documentation, which was given to us by our allies during the Peace Conference was a cheat and untrue."
Nitti (Italian Prime Minister, in his book from 1925): "So far there was one multi-ethnic nation in Carpathian basin, now we have four-five. Hungary will never disclaim Transylvania (...) the revision will have to be done sooner or later."
Benes: "As I have seen the possible dangers, I have started on my own to draft the peace of future in Paris. Almost all what I have done were done by improvising and without bibliography."
Mitterand (told this to poet Gyula Illyes, in 1979, to Hungarian Prime Minister Jozsef Antall, and on a lecture in University of Leipzig): "What happened in Trianon, was a filthy thing".
Prime Minister of Australia, in 1992: "Everybody knows, that Trianon was a huge scam".
Maniu (Romanian Prime Minister): "... during the so-called Hungarian oppression, we, Romanians in Transylvania, had a better life, than now."
Hlinka (Slovak nationalist, in 4/June 1925): "Should the memory of Hungarian Homeland glow within our hearts, as during the thousand-year of Hungarian dominance we have not suffered as much as under the 6 years of Czech dominance" (from the book by USA general Bonsal, "Czechs, Slovaks and Pater Hlinka")
Stipic (leader of Serbs of Hungary): "The six years of Yugoslav regime has brought longing for Hungarian dominance".
Peace! Abdulka 16:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I have to oppose Squash Racket's new addition. He/she insist on changing a more precise and NPOV sentence "Hungarian politicians have periodically voiced concerns about the treatment of these ethnic Hungarian communities in the neighboring states" into a vague statement "there has been clear doubt about the treatment". Whose doubt? How clear? With no doubt about the doubt? Do we talk about "cler doubt" in all the neighboring countries and for the whole period or just in some of them and for some periods of time (as the cited sources in fact suggest). I believe a vague sentence of this kind reduces quality of this article. As I do not want to be dragged into another revert war with this user, I would appreciate input from other editors of this article, so we can reach consensus here. Tankred 13:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
("It's important to avoid copyright problems. I would like to point out that even if it was explained to User:Squash Racket the reasons why this cannot be used there, he/she continued to use it and the conversation with User:Squash Racket is quite impossible because of his/her continues accusations and a very hostile attitude. I would ask Squash Racket to try to have a more positive attitude and to try to collaborate with the other users instead of atacking them. -- R O A M A T A A | msg 04:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)")
"Clear doubt" makes no sense as an expression. I have restored the original wording but kept the references added by Squash Racket. K issL 10:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
"Treaties can be loosely compared to contracts: both are means of willing parties assuming obligations among themselves" ( treaty). But how we call a contract when one of the parties is not negotiating, only has the right to sign the document? Someone can help with this? Squash Racket 04:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
That is usually called a Dictatum. Perhaps it would be more appropriate in the title at least as an option, like Trianon Treaty or Dictatum. Giordano Giordani 11:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This is what the Hungarians are fighting for since 1920, to call it what it was, really. "Treaty" is more than euphemism here. Abdulka 10:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I have re-removed several paragraphs of the "Political Consequences" section, for 3 reasons:
You may provide better sources, but deletion of well referenced whole paragraphs IS vandalism. And you should also wait for the opinion of others before making so big changes after all the article is important for others too. Squash Racket 09:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The exact source I consider unreliable is [4]. It is an essay (by definition not very reliable) that supports positions took by Hitler, the anti-semitic Hungarian politician Istvan Csurka. Moreover, the essay is completely non-encyclopedic, and probably made because of US-Hungary political ties. Dpotop 09:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The first paragraph removed by Dpotop asserts that there are significant differences between the situation in Western European countries versus their countries and the situation in Hungarian-majority versus non-Hungarian majority territories in the KoH. Since there are no sources claiming exactly this, the paragraph fails WP:NOR (more specifically, WP:SYN).
The last paragraph equally asserts something that is not supported directly by the reference. Murray Rothbard is notable, but what we could say without violating NPOV or NOR would be something along the lines "Murray Rothbard, U.S. anarcho-capitalist thinker has suggested revisiting the treaty in an essay written in 1993", which is too marginal in itself to merit inclusion, IMO. If someone assembles comprehensive lists of both people who have hailed this treaty and people who have denounced it, then we could include this information there.
In short, I endorse Dpotop's removals.
K issL 09:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Surely in the anals of Wiki History this discussion page must get the award for the most heated and lengthy discussion (argument). When will it end? Surely after another 50 years of peacefully living in the harmonic open borders of the EU will all this bickering and trouble stiring hate be forgotten - thank God! Sidney Bung 20:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
From WP:TALK: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal. K issL 11:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Why not introduce the Banat Republic into the article? -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 00:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I deleted this map from the article. This is a map from 1920, representing I don't know what data (it's not clear), for clear propaganda purposes. Just take a look: One would say that Slovakia and Transylvania are void of population, just waiting to be filled in with red. :):) The only way this map can be placed here (or any other article, for that matter) is with proper sourcing and explanations as to what each color represents, and on what data it is based, a.s.o. Dpotop ( talk) 10:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but all low density places are left out, Hungarians too as you just pointed out. This map definitely helps an NPOV view of this. The Austrian map does not really explain why Hungarians complained about the Treaty afterwards.
Squash Racket (
talk) 14:09, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
A source for the map:
National Geographic Hungary's official website. According to the article
Apponyi tried to use that map during the negotiations, but too late, because originally he had wanted to restore the borders of the Kingdom of Hungary. He should have negotiated based on nationalities and census, not territory.
Squash Racket (
talk) 14:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
If the source of the map is really
National Geographic Hungary's official website, then the presence of the image on Wikipedia is violating the National Geographic copyright.
147.175.98.213 (
talk) 21:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that National Geographic owns the copyright of a map drawn 80 years ago by a Hungarian scientist. The copyright obviously expired and they are using the map on their website similary like we in wikipedia. Zello ( talk) 22:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Could you at least give us a map with better resolution? It is not readable and the caption '"Red Map" of the nationalities of Hungary' doesn't help much. Additionally, it should be labeled with information about it's origin and that it was used by the Magyar side at the negotiations. The way it is now, it can be (mis)interpreted in various ways. 147.175.98.213 ( talk) 20:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding "uninhabited areas in this map are exaggerated especially in regions where inhabitants were non-Hungarians", I can give a source for this statement, just wait few days. I remember reading about Teleki's map in "Spaţiul istoric şi etnic românesc" (The Romanian historical and ethnic space), I will come soon with details about this book. I don't agree with Dpotop that the Red map is stupid, it was a clever attempt to manipulate the decision of the peace conference, but is still a mainly propagandistic work and is using unscientific methods. The manipulation is visible with naked eye for persons with knowledge about Transylvania. There are no dessertic regions in Transylvania. For example, in the red map almost the entire Hunedoara county (a Romanian-majority region) appear uninhabited. Anybody who make a visit in that region will find plenty of people there (and it was populated in 1919 also).-- MariusM ( talk) 13:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The fact that the regions declared "uninhabited" in the red map are mainly inhabited by minorities is sourced by the Austrian ethnographic map which is just above in the article.-- MariusM ( talk) 00:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Hungarian-populated Transylvanian mountains like the Hargita and the hills of Csík are considered uninhabited on the map. What's the difference with Apuşeni? Zello ( talk) 12:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I have seen this map in a book once, with the method explained on it in Hungarian and English. It claimed to be a reproduction of the original. I'll look it up and copy the English text here, if you guys will be patient for a few days.
Anyways, from what I remember, the method was to make the areas filled with a certain colour proportionate to the number of people having the respective ethnicity. White spots were defined by a population density below a certain limit where representing the population in the exact location where they live would have led to a lot of small, separated spots whose sizes would be hard to tell apart. However the people living in these areas are represented as living in the nearest settlement that is sizeable enough to be coloured of its own right, this I remember for sure.
The viewpoints that "the 1910 census data on which the map is based are biased" / "this map can be used to create the false impression that many regions where Hungarians are a minority are uninhabited anyway" are logically acceptable and notable enough to be represented in the article with the proper citations. On the other hand, since the map doesn't use the word "uninhabited" and explains in detail why white areas are white, throwing around expressions like "propaganda material", accusing Teleki of creating the map with a propaganda purpose in the first place, or saying that the method of representing ethnicities proportionately to their numbers (as opposed to the land area they inhabit) is "unscientific" is just ridiculous. Even on the talk page. Especially because having proportionately less reds AND purples over a certain area within Transylvania doesn't make that area visually any redder than before, right? So I fail to see how that would have helped Hungary gain lands that don't "belong to" her in terms of ethnic justice.
To which I will add: if I were as much of a hot-headed nationalist as some people around here seem to be, I could start yelling "propaganda" because the Austrian map represents nationalities proportionately to the land area they inhabit, thus creating the false impression that the Hungarians made up much less of the population of the KoH than they actually did ("look at the map, dammit, does it look like there's four times as much green as there is orange???") – but I'm not, so we'll not start this kind of discussion.
The bottom line is that the two maps are fair in different ways, and can be used to create false impressions in yet other different ways (and no doubt they were both used as much as possible for both their fair and unfair ends). I see no reason why they shouldn't both be included – with the appropriate commentary, of course. K issL 11:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
"half-uninhabited regions which the red map is showing about the areas lost by Hungary" - this a distortion of the facts. There is no difference in the method regarding the lost and retained territories. Similarly there is no difference in the method regarding Hungarian-populated regions and others. Zello ( talk) 22:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Low density mountainous territories of Székelyland are shown as uninhabited although they were populated by Magyars. Big areas of Transdanubia are also shown as uninhabited, so the method have been used consistently. Population density is not an insignificant factor and another map using the more traditional method were added together with the red map. The caption explains the method used. There is nothing misleading in the present version. Zello ( talk) 00:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the term "fake impression" is nowhere near NPOV, or even imitating NPOV. Also, please stop forcing (and then refuting) the notions "uninhabited" or "unpopulated". Both the red map itself (I'll really dig it up, promise) and the caption I formulated for it a few days ago make an effort to dismiss that incorrect interpretation. K issL 14:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
-- fz22 ( talk) 20:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I've found it. Here goes:
“ | Ethnographical maps hitherto disregarded the density of population. They cover densely inhabited regions and those with scattered population equally with plain colouring. On ethnographical maps of Europe 2.4 million Norvegians are represented by a bigger coloured surface, than the 43 million inhabitants of Great Britain, and 30,000 Lapponians by an equal surface. This conveys to the general reader a wrong impression, especially as to the relative weight of ethnical groups of population.
In the present map I have tried to provide the general reader, — the man in a hurry — with a map enabling him to recognise at first glance the number and nationality of the population. The map is both an ethnographical and a demographical one. Every square millimeter of coloured surface represents 100 inhabitants, the respective colour being that of their nationality. The white spaces represent the relatively uninhabited regions with scattered population and so small villages only that they could not be represented (i. e. printed) on a map of this scale. But you find all these people included and represented. Not a single soul remains unrepresented, scattered population of the mountains, woods, steppes and swamps being counted and represented with that of the valley, or of the next greater village. |
” |
The emphasis is in the original, as is the typo "Norvegians".
The title of the map is "Ethnographical map of Hungary based on density of population by Count Paul Teleki, Professor of Geography. Every square millimeter coloured indicates 100 inhabitants. According to the census of 1910."
BTW, the map is included as an attachment in a 1928 book titled "Igazságot Magyarországnak!" ("Justice for Hungary!") containing a collection of essays written by prominent Hungarian statesmen of the time.
K issL 09:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The caption describes the map in a correct way, I guess there is no doubt about that. Would anyone of you tell us exactly what kind of criticism would you include? The original goal of the
Hungarian
delegation was to restore the borders of the Kingdom. The goal with the Red Map was to modify the borders to create the most
homogeneous states possible. MariusM, before any more comments try to understand the way the map was created.
We are talking about the Red Map here only, not about a whole book!
Squash Racket (
talk) 06:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Just a few thoughts:
1) Different choices of the threshold density (100/mm^2 in this case) in such a map produce different maps. And these different maps leave a different visual impression. A legitimate question is why 100 and not 50 (or 10, or 75)? Well, it seems like even now Hungarians and Romanians like to present the same facts in different ways in order to prove different points. And we can imagine how much stronger this was in 1920. For me, as a Romanian, it's not hard to guess that the main reason behind the compilation of this map was to generate a map that can be as red as possible. And where it's impossible to get the red, then let's choose the appropriate threshold density that will give us white (rather than another colour). What I'm trying to say is that the choice of the threshold density is a very subjective matter.
2) I cannot see the point of such a map in the context of the Treaty of Trianon. How is the population density relevant when deciding if a region should belong to a nation or another. The world is definitely not made up by countries having similar population densities. And Norway/UK is a very good example indeed. All that mattered at the time was "who had the majority in a particular region?". And no matter what is the choice of the threshold density (and consequently how many white regions you obtain), to me it is clear that these white regions should be associated with their respective majorities. I'm really curious to find out what other people think. Who should administrate the regions that have a population density below a certain level? Shall it be the UN? Alexrap ( talk) 13:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The Austria-Hungary map gives a wrong impression, 2.5 million ethnic Hungarians live in Hungary's neighboring countries today. If you want to include criticism, we can discuss, but don't make the NPOV desriptions of the maps POV. Squash Racket ( talk) 12:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Squash Racket, I was confused by you talking about the "2.5 million ethnic Hungarians that live in Hungary's neighboring countries today" (i.e. 2008) in the discussion page of an article relating to 1920.
Fz22, I wrote <<"own">> and not just <<own>> because I was not talking about the actual owner of a particular forest, but the state that in the 1920 context was most entitled to administrate the whole land these forests were in.
Hobartimus, you are missing an important point. There were (and still are) very few uninhabited places in Transylvania. There is no 2500m high mountain at all, they are all quite a lot less than that. And people always lived in the mountains as well, although in lower population densities than the ones encountered in the plains. The red map did not make white just the uninhabited regions. It artificially made white all the regions with population densities below a certain threshold. I would like to meet a single person who knows a bit about Transylvania and is not intrigued at all by the fact that large regions from Hunedoara, Alba, Sibiu, Bistrita, Arad, Harghita, Brasov, Bihor, Maramures, Cluj, Covasna appear on this "red map" as uninhabited.
And finally a very important point that apparently I was not able to get across. In the context of the Treaty of Trianon, the important issue was who was living in a particular region. With the focus on the region, and not on the overall population from the whole former Austria-Hungary. Different regions had different population densities and they had to be considered separately. Chosing thresholds like 100 people per mm^2 of the map is very subjective. I could probably undestand a threshold like inhabited/uninhabited. But anything else is just wrong because it creates the impression that an artificially chosen population density defines whether people from a regions are ignored (and moved next to other people) or not. Alexrap ( talk) 14:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, why don't we try to hold our horses a bit? Hobartimus, I'm trying to keep a certain level for this discussion, but you are not helping at all. Either my English is extremely bad, or you prefer not to understand what I'm saying.
1) It's not just me knowing how many uninhabited places were in Transylvania in 1910. Everyone (including yourself) knows that. It's not rocket science. There are extremely few (if any) new settlements founded in Transylvania after 1910. Almost all the increase in population from 1910 to 2008 is the result of the urban population increase. Actually many rural places have nowadays less population than in 1910. You can easily check everything I said above just by having a look at the Census data. Try this website for example.
2) I was just told that there are 38% forest land in Transylvania? Are you joking? I don't need to be told that. My question to Fz22 was how he calculated the 38-80-20 percentages. Meaning that 80% of the 38% were represented as Romanian and 20% of the 38% as Hungarian. He didn't answer the question. But I chose not to continue that argument as it was pointless. Apparently you didn't get it.
3) I don't know on how many 'over 2500m Romanian peaks' you've actually been, but I can tell you that I've been on all 5 of them. And they are all at the very border between Transylvania and Wallachia, so practically irrelevant to our talk here. That is what I meant. And before starting to give lessons to the others, it's advisable to get it right for yourself first. The Southern Carpathians and Transylvanian Alps are not at all the same thing. I'll leave it to you to find out what the difference is. In any case, there is no 2500m peak in the Transylvanian Alps. They are all less than 1850m.
4) The statement "people always lived in the mountains as well" is not absurd at all. Mountain does not mean "the peak of the mountain".
5) I didn't "confuse any meaning" regarding the white on the map. Please try to read the sentence again. I was just saying that regions that were inhabited in reality appear as white on the map (thus implying that they were uninhabited). Which is wrong and extremely misleading. Alexrap ( talk) 12:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I wonder how accurate are the data about post-Trianon Hungary. While is normal that German language, which was an official language of the Austro-Hungary and was taught in schools, was spoken not only by ethnic Germans, which is the explanation for such a big number of non-Slovaks speaking Slovak, non-Romanians speaking Romanian, non Serbo-Croatians speaking Serbo-Croatian (5% speaking Slovak but only 1,8% ethnic Slovaks; 2,2% speaking Serbo-Croatian but only 1% South Slavs; 1,1% speaking Romanian but only 0,3% ethnic Romanians)? My guess is that the number of minorities in post-Trianon Hungary was higher but social pressure made some of the citizens of other ethnic backgrounds to declare themselves Hungarians.-- MariusM ( talk) 23:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
These numbers were added by Juro, I remember our discussion long ago. I thought them suspicious, so I looked up the 1920 census data and added the much lower official numbers for mother language which are more realistic. I checked the "bilingual numbers" and they were correct, see "Correct Data" section above with citation. I also gave some explanation there for the reasons behind. Zello ( talk) 12:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Well done Fz22, very nice map. I think it is really useful in this article and it looks professional. Some comments though:
1) The bar that shows percentages of ethnic groups in the different regions is 100% full in the case of Hungary and Kingdom of Hungary and only partially full in all the other cases. I presume that it's somehow related to the corresponding population density of each region, but I'm not sure and it's quite hard to guess. An explanation in the description page would be very useful.
2) I can't see the rule of ordering the way in which ethnic groups are represented in the bars. One option would be to have them ordered according to each respective region (e.g. for Slovakia the bar should show from let to right Slovaks, Hungarians, Ruthenians, Germans, others). This would probably be the best option, since the map wants to illustrate consequences of the Treaty. Another option would be to order them according to the percentages in the whole Kingdom of Hungary (this is probably not the best option if we want to show consequences). The present rule, if any, is quite confusing though. What's the rule?
3) The 2 long arrows in the centre/bottom of the image suggest that people from Vojvodina and Međimurje and Prekmurje are represented together? Why? Alexrap ( talk) 16:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems that there is a little bit of "edit-war" going on about the addition of this NY Times article as a reference in here. Squash Racket added it 2-3 days ago, MariusM removed it, then it was added again by Hobartimus and Squash Racket.
Well, it seems that this neverending story continues on the same note. It's very sad that we tend to go into the same sort of Romanian-Hungarian edit wars over and over again. But let's try to put our objective glasses on, rather than being emotional about things.
At least to me, using that NYT article as a reference in here is very artificial and, to be honest, quite childish. It is referenced in 3 places:
Now, which one of this three statements do you honestly think that needs that new NYT article as a reference? All three things are already well-known facts and if they would need any reference at all, it should certainly be something else.
Therefore, at least to me (although I can be accused of being subjective here) it is obvious that the idea behind having that reference in here is exactly the oposite of what it should be. Normally, we should use references to improve the article, and not use the article to advertise references. Alexrap ( talk) 12:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The reliable, English language, neutral reference supports four points of the article, there is no valid reason for its removal. Squash Racket ( talk) 04:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I asked administrators to reinsert it, it happened, hopefully this time the article remains there supporting (at least) all the four statements. It would be helpful if we could pull up possibly English language academic sources and add them with inline citations. Squash Racket ( talk) 12:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Neil and Kralizec, the "fuss" was created because the NYT article is not directly related with the subject of this article. It's about the situation of today's Szekely minority in Romania. At least for me, citing it for at least some of the points looked very awkward. Something like citing only for the sake of citing. If you analyse point by point the discussion in here and read the whole NYT article, you might get an idea about "why all this fuss?". Anyway, it seems like there is an agreement between all of us that an academic source would be more appropriate. A trip to the library and a very short search in there pointed me towards several books. I will insert them as references in the article. Alexrap ( talk) 12:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Provided the content accurately reflects the source it is citing, it seems clear that no one should object to the use of The New York Times as a source. The one possible exception I could see would be if there were already two or three sources supporting a fact that were of an even higher quality than the NYT article, in which case it might be deemed superfluous to use the article as an additional source, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. Everyking ( talk) 03:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The text of the Treaty should either be in the references or the external links. It is mentioned twice in the article right now. Squash Racket ( talk) 14:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:EL#References and citation I removed it from the external links. Squash Racket ( talk) 14:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Since we have enough secondary sources now in the lead I removed the Britannica reference. You should activate a free trial for it anyway unless you have access to it. Squash Racket ( talk) 14:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
sorry!!!!!!!!!????? -- Nina.Charousek ( talk) 13:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
it is a POV and a clear falsification of history: it is fact The treaty declared that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was to be dissolved: Whereas the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy has now ceased to exist, and has been replaced in Hungary by a national Hungarian Government.-- Nina.Charousek ( talk) 14:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Squash Racket. Also you removed sourced informations: "Hungary lost over two-thirds of its territory, about two-thirds of its inhabitants under the treaty and 3.3 million ethnic Hungarians" Baxter9 ( talk) 15:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
So Hungary was a separated country. Read th Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (1919) article to find out what happened with Austria... Baxter9 ( talk) 15:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... anything specific? I just checked the article on the other treaty and in fact it DOES list Austria's losses in great detail. Squash Racket ( talk) 16:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
To me that seems more than three lines:
Austria was reduced not only by the loss of crownlands incorporated into the states of Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Yugoslavia (the “successor states”) but by the cession of the regions Istria and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, city of Trieste, and several Dalmatian islands to Italy and the cession of Bukovina to Romania. In total, it lost land to Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Romania, and Italy. Burgenland, then a part of Hungary, was awarded to Austria.
The Austrian Army was limited to a force of 30,000 volunteers. There were numerous provisions dealing with Danubian navigation, the transfer of railways, and other details involved in the breakup of a great empire into several small independent states. (...)
The vast reduction of population, territory and resources of the new Austria relative to the old empire wreaked havoc on the economy of the old nation, most notably in Vienna, an imperial capital without an empire to support it. The forcible incorporation of the German-speaking population of the border territories of the Sudetenland into the state of Czechoslovakia, created enormous problems - which became one of the causes of World War II.
The other article is a bit too short for such comparisons, don't you think? Squash Racket ( talk) 17:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
"but Austria-Hungary 1916 and Hungary 1921 were two absolute different counrties, it is not successor, not heritage"
WHAT???? YES IT IS A DIRECT SUCCESSOR! Austria-Hungary consisted of two souverain kingdoms the Austrian empire and the Hungarian Kingdom. Hungary was always a separated part of the Habsburg Empire, not like the territory of the Czeh Republic. Habsburg emperors were Hungarian kings as well, they HAD TO BE CROWNED to the King of Hungary. After the treaty of Trianon until 1946 Hungary's stateform was kingdom, the direct successor of the Hungarian Kingdom which was member of the dualistic Austria-Hungary. The last Habsbur emperor/king Charles the IV tried many times to get his Hungarian trone back, even because he was Hungarian king who was crowned in 1916. One queston to you: the Czeh state was dissolved in 1618-1620 after the 30 years war and it was (re)created in 1918 (not on the same territories). So do you czeh people feel that heritage as your own? (According to you, you should not) What do you think about Great Moravia? Hm? Is the Czeh state of direct successor of Czechoslovakia? Same territory? Heritage? Baxter9 ( talk) 17:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
And what is not neutral for you? That it tells the reader that Hungary lost 75% of it's territory? What is wrong with that? That is a fact, nothing else. Baxter9 ( talk) 17:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
no, hungary of 1921 is a complete new sturtups, hungary did signed trianon, and that say explicit: Whereas the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy has now ceased to exist, and has been replaced in Hungary (border Hungary 1921) by a national Hungarian Government, Trianon is valid, all another is withcraft, right-wing radicalism, clear falsification of history and the trample at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Trianon is today and tomorrow (in 100 years?) a valid agreement. -- Nina.Charousek ( talk) 17:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Still waiting for your "problems" with the article: what is "withcraft, right-wing radicalism, clear falsification of history", show sentences, sections. And who said it is not valid?? Baxter9 ( talk) 18:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I am tired of this.... Hungary has not lost Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia because this kingdom has never been part of Hungary. We are having very interesting double standard in this article. First we are having statement:
"The Hungarian government terminated the personal union with Austria on 31 October 1918,...", then we are having statement that Kingdom of Hungary has lost Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. First I do no see logic in statement that 1 kingdom has lost another kingdom then we are having double standard because The Croatian government has terminated the personal union with Hungary on 29 October.
I can even find like evidence Croatian parliament declaration with which personal union with Hungary has ended.-- Rjecina ( talk) 20:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
CROATIA-SLAVONIA (Serbo-Croatian Hrvatska i Slavonija; Hung. Horvát-Szlavonország; Ger. Kroatien und Slawonien), a kingdom of the Hungarian monarchy;
The city and territories of Fiume, the sole important harbour on this coast, are included in Hungary proper, and controlled by the Budapest government.
By the fundamental law of the 21st of December 1867 Austria-Hungary was divided, for purposes of internal government, into Cisleithania, or the Austrian empire, and Transleithania, or the kingdoms of Hungary and Croatia-Slavonia. In theory the viceroy, or ban of CroatiaSlavonia is nominated by the crown, and enjoys almost unlimited authority over local affairs; in practice the consent of the crown is purely formal, and the ban is appointed by the Hungarian premier, who can dismiss him at any moment. The provincial government is subject to the ban, and comprises three ministries - the interior, justice, and religion and education, - for whose working the ban is responsible to the Hungarian premier(...)
Hear is text of Nagodba. In 1918 Croatia has abolished this agreement-- Rjecina ( talk) 02:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
kingdom Hungary proper has 108,982 sq. m. and Croatia-Slavonia 16,420 sq. m Hungary in Britannica 1911
HUNGARY (Hungarian Magyarorszag), a country in the south-eastern pertion of central Europe, bounded E. by Austria (Bukovina) and Rumania; S. by Rumania, Servia, Bosnia and Austria (Dalmatia); W. by Austria (Istria, Carniola, Styria and Lower Austria); and N. by Austria (Moravia, Silesia and Galicia). It has an area of 125,402 sq. m. (=325,111km2), being thus about 4000 sq. m. larger than Great Britain and Ireland.
[6]-- Bizso ( talk) 20:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)Geography And Statistics The kingdom of Hungary (Magyarbiradolorn) is one of the two states which constitute the monarchy of Austria-Hungary, and occupies 51.8% of the total area of the monarchy. Hungary, unlike Austria, presents a remarkable geographical unity. It is almost exclusively continental, having only a short extent of seaboard on the Adriatic (a little less than loo m.). Its land-frontiers are for the most part well defined by natural boundaries: on the N.W., N., E. and S.E. the Carpathian mountains; on the S. the Danube, Save and Unna. On the W. they are not so clearly marked, being formed partly by low ranges of mountains and partly by the rivers March and Leitha. From the last-mentioned river are derived the terms Cisleithania and Transleithania, applied to Austria and Hungary respectively.
CROATIA-SLAVONIA, a kingdom of the Hungarian monarchy; bounded on the N. by Carniola, Styria and Hungary proper; E. by Hungary and Servia [7]
My point is that Croatia is part of Realm of the Crown of St Stephen, but not Hungary. Map of hungarian 1910 census [8]-- Rjecina ( talk) 11:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
this article is a disgrace for english wp, all is reduced to borders, but this is only a part of set of problems, I looked for some another wp's and they have not excellent, but better article, hu.wp too
I hope for (wrong no marked cards by me):
I checked the history of this page. Good luck fighting over the same edits for the next 10 years lol. This distupe will never end. I leave the fighting to the more national minded people. Cheers to the EU! we'll all meet up there, anyway. :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizso ( talk • contribs) 02:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Gelardi, Julia. Born to Rule: Granddaughters of Victoria, Queens of Europe
This book is cited in the text. I checked and it is a biography on the British Royal family that has some offsprings in continental Europe. I don`t entirely understand how this is relevant to this topic but the citation is clearly insufficient as it does not list any pages!? Also, the text referenced to this book, is that the opinion of the author or a character in the book? This should be clarified.--
Bizso (
talk) 14:23, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Ambrosio Thomas: Preventing Hungarian Irredentism through Western Integration [9] The 2nd sentence of the source goes like this:
This is wrong as Hungary lost more than two-third of its historic territory.
Now, I don't want to jump to conclusions too soon, but a source that has a factual error in the 2nd sentence might not totally qualify as reliable?! --
Bizso (
talk) 10:19, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Biszo, thank you letting me know this apparent inconsistency.
The idea underlined there is, however, that the Hungarian revisionism was still a source of regional instability after the cold war ended.
Now, about the territory lost by Hungary it depends, I think, how you take in account the new Hungarian state territory: do you count in the Croatian territory, Transylvania etc? Ambrosio said something about Hungary's historic territory and if you look for the other reference I added there you can see what historic teritory is considered by the experts in this matters (see also Nationalism and Territory: Constructing Group Identity in Southeastern Europe. p. 67-109.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-7TgkO8utHIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Nationalism+and+Territory:+Constructing+Group+Identity+in+Southeastern+Europe.)
From strictly legal point of view, one might argue (again) that the new Hungarian state did not lose anything because, following the disintegration of Austro-Hungary, the new borders were only temporary until the Treaty of Trianon confirmed them. If one takes in consideration the internal Austro-Hungarian borders, then one might get a higher figure
http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_nowiki.pngbut using, perhaps, a disputable argument.
These were my thoughts and talking about
Thomas Ambrosio, I am confident that he knows these facts better than any wikipidian that, ever, bothered to discuss about these subjects. Me and you including. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tziganul (
talk •
contribs) 15:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
This is the source that cites the census data [10]
I checked it, and there has been a clear manipulation of data... The figures citing the 1910 census is correct but data for the 1919/20 census is partially wrong. The percantage of Romanians was 57.0% and Hungarians was 25.9% in 1880. Not 1920/1919.
For 1919/1920 the percentages can be calculated as follows:
Please note that it is emphesized by the author of the source that census data for 1919 and 1920 is highly unreliable and the next internationally recognized census, after the one in 1910, was held in 1930.
Therefore, I propose that we should omit the 1919/20 data and use solely the 1910 and 1930 figures.--
Bizso (
talk) 00:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
-- Bizso ( talk) 00:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I have noticed some edits stating In reality, Romanian troops had incomparably less casualties than either Britain or France, That's quite a gross falsification being quite easy to demonstrate the lack of the judgement of the editor. The causality figure given (any reliability in
http://www.kilidavid.com/History/World%20War%20I.htm ?) states for Romania 335,706 KIA and because, at that time, Romania had less than 8,000,0000 people it means that, actually, the causality rate is actually comparable if not higher than that sustained by France , for example. That's quite simple arithmetic and did not expect seeing it disputed.
Causality rate Romania = 333,707/8,000,000 = 0.042
Causality rate France = 1,375,800/40,000,000 =0.035
--
Tziganul (
talk) 19:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Bizso, I expect YOU to take out from article the false information introduced there! please make note that it is clear malicious edit!-- Tziganul ( talk) 23:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
OK, you have change it :). Thanks Bizso.
Now I am curious to see why at pollitical consequences you have introduced this narrative Romania was promised Transylvania and territories to the east of river Tisza, provided that she attacked Austria-Hungary from south-east, where defense was scarce. However, after the Central Powers had noticed the millitary manouvre, the attempt was quickly choked off and Bucharest fell in the same year. It is clearly not the place to do it.--
Tziganul (
talk) 23:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Historical aspects? Disputed (see for example the Origin of Romanians). Cultural and ethnic? Please elaborate. What about the geographic, economic, strategic aspects? Mentatus ( talk) 19:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
These aspects are closely related to one another and one often implies the other. For instance, the geographic, economic and strategic aspects have much overlap... I could continue to give further examples but I think the point conveyed is pretty obvious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonio09 ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, it's bad enough the article is nearly copy-pasted from http://www.hunsor.se/trianon/treatyoftrianon1920.htm, but the fact that the source used is in fact a website about political activism for "national minorities" in neighboring countries really is pathetic. Politics and propaganda should not be passed up as history on wikipedia. At the very least change the wording on the sentences and use more than one source when writing over two pages of information. Romano-Dacis ( talk) 18:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I have to say that seeing all this unbalance in this article, and pretty total disregard of the balanced, neutral, historical point of view, I am pretty tempted of tagging it.
Somebody has to realise that what was for Hungary a disaster was for the rest a blessing. I have never heard of the Slovakian, Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Romanian or Serbian being sorry about Austro-Hungary dissolution.
The economic consequences, just as an example, that are listed there show only one side of the coin. Most of the new states economies did redress pretty quick from the mess that was WWI. That fact is pretty remarkable, actually, taking in account the huge economic and human losses caused by the WWI. But there is nothing written about that in this article. And yes, one must reckon that the economic unity of the empire was a reality. There was a dependency between different regions, but, unfortunately for Hungary, the really developed part was actually the Austrian side of the Empire. Therefore, there was not really many incentives for ANY of these imperial minorities, to continue a common political/economical project together with Hungary in any form or shape, I would say. This are my thoughts, however, and I would not mind to see some other opinion expressed about this matter
This is not, by any means, disrespect for Hungarian history or Hungarian people whatsoever. However, this article has to be balanced with the others points of view too and we (Slovenians, Croatians, Rutenians, Slovakians, Serbians, Romanians) shouldn't have to take a deep breath every time we read this article.
I am tempted to contribute to this article but not really ready to start an edit war, therefore tagging the article might be the only option left for now. Before to do that, I would like to gather as many inputs as possible, about how this article could be improved. Therefore, don't be shy and come, please, with your ideas about this subject.--
Tziganul (
talk) 18:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I have to say that seeing all this unbalance in this article, and pretty total disregard of the balanced, neutral, historical point of view, I am pretty tempted of tagging it.
Somebody has to realise that what was for Hungary a disaster was for the rest a blessing. I have never heard of the Slovakian, Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Romanian or Serbian being sorry about Austro-Hungary dissolution.
The economic consequences, just as an example, that are listed there show only one side of the coin. Most of the new states economies did redress pretty quick from the mess that was WWI.
citation needed That fact? is pretty remarkable, actually, taking in account the huge economic and human losses caused by the WWI. But there is nothing written about that in this article. And yes, one must reckon that the economic unity of the empire was a reality. There was a dependency between different regions, but, unfortunately for Hungary, the really developed part was actually the Austrian side of the Empire. Therefore, there was not really many incentives for ANY of these imperial minorities, to continue a common political/economical project together with Hungary in any form or shape, I would say. This are my thoughts, however, and I would not mind to see some other opinion expressed about this matter
This is not, by any means, disrespect for Hungarian history or Hungarian people whatsoever. However, this article has to be balanced with the others points of view too and we (Slovenians, Croatians, Rutenians, Slovakians, Serbians, Romanians) shouldn't have to take a deep breath every time we read this article.
I am tempted to contribute to this article but not really ready to start an edit war, therefore tagging the article might be the only option left for now. Before to do that, I would like to gather as many inputs as possible, about how this article could be improved. Therefore, don't be shy and come, please, with your ideas about this subject.--
Tziganul (
talk) 18:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
In the article
Romania half thousand years of Hungarian rule in
Transylvania is mentioned in a half sentence, while the few-month vacation of Michael "the Brave" there has its own paragraph. And the article is not tagged.
If you have some concerns based on neutral, English academic literature, then present them.
BTW the treaty was quite poorly negotiated. The article doesn't mention that Romania and
Slovakia while constantly referring to the ethnic composition of Hungary at the time, in 2009 as EU members fail to provide autonomy (not to speak of independence) to hundreds of thousands of ethnic Hungarians based on the very same reasoning.
Squash Racket (
talk) 08:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Tziganul, I absolutely understand that you feel that there is a bias in the "wording" and the "presentation" of the article. But my best advice for you is to accept it. Wikipedia articles are divided into groups that are owned by groups of people (especially ones that concern nationality topics because nationalistic feelings are flourishing there). Don't attempt to change them, because you will get reverted sooner or later or what's even better, banned by an admin for no reason. Wikipedia will never be neutral. The reason is that everyone can edit it and some groups of people size control over certain articles. The Treaty of Trainon is owned by "Hungarian minded" editors so it will always be biased towards Hungarian feelings. Other Wikipedia editors that operate in groups respect this subtle fact and they don't want to edit this article for example. Nor will the Kingdom of Crotia be anything less than a totally independent autonomous kingdom. So my best advise again, is that you leave this article alone and find and read many alternate sources on the Treaty if you are interested. That's what I am going to do. Unfortunately, Wikipedia cannot offer more. I hope that what I said wasn't too vague. See ya-- Bizso ( talk) 05:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I've attempted to find some middle ground between the two positions currently being tossed back and forth. I've reinstated the full name (with link) to the Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia in the first mention of the region, but I think it's unneccessary (in the interest of linguistic elegance and brevity if nothing else) to keep re-iterating the full name throughout the article--once it's been established in the early part of the article, the intelligent reader will easily be able to interpret later references to "Croatia-Slavonia" correctly. K. Lásztocska talk 19:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
To be correct: Dalmatia was in Austrian part of Austria-Hungary and that way Croatia was administratively divided between Austria and Hungary. But, in other legal (!) way, Dalmatia was part of united Croatia (Triune Kingdom), under Hungarian Crown.
Croatian-Hungarian Agreement proves that. That Agreement was a pact signed in 1868, that governed Croatia's political status in the Hungarian-ruled part of Austria-Hungary.
So, we should use "Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia", not just "Croatia-Slavonia".
Here's the text in Croatian
Hrvatsko-ugarska nagodba
§. 1. "Kraljevina Ugarska sjedinjena s Erdeljem i kraljevine Dalmacija, Hrvatska i Slavonija sačinjavaju jednu te istu državnu zajednicu"
§. 2. "...Izvornik ove krunitbene zavjernice ima se uz madjarski sastavak i jezikom hrvatskim sastaviti i kraljevinam Dalmaciji, Hrvatskoj i Slavoniji izdati i u njemu cjelokupnost i zemaljski ustav kraljevinah Dalmacije, Hrvatske i Slavonije zajamčiti. Krunitbena zav ernica od 1867. ima se naknadno takodjer hrvatskim jezikom sastaviti i saboru kraljevinah Dalmacije, Hrvatske i Slavonije što prije poslati".
§. 8. "...da ako bi se radilo oprodaji državne dalmtinsko-hrvatsko-slavonske nepokretne imovine u zemljah i šumah, o tom se i sabor kraljevinah Dalmacije, Hrvatske i Slavonije saslušati ima, pa da se bez njegove privole prodaja takova izvesti ne može."
Here's the text in Hungarian
1868. évi XXX. törvénycikk. a Magyarország, s Horvát-, Szlavon és Dalmátországok közt fenforgott közjogi kérdések kiegyenlítése iránt létrejött egyezmény beczikkelyezéséről.
§. 1. "Magyarország s Horvát-, Szlavon- és Dalmátországok egy és ugyanazon állami közösséget képeznek, mind az Ő Felsége uralkodása alatt álló többi országok, mind más országok irányában."
§. 2. "...E koronázási oklevél eredetije azonban, a magyar szöveg mellett horvát nyelven is szerkesztendő, Horvát-, Szlavon- és Dalmátországoknak is kiadandó, s abban Horvát-, Szlavon- és Dalmátországok integritása és országos alkotmánya is biztosítandó".
§. 8. "... a horvát-szlavon-dalmát országgyülés is, a melynek beleegyezése nélkül eladás nem történhetik. S mindezen tárgyakra nézve a közös pénzügyi kormányzat, mely a közös országgyülésnek felelős magyar királyi pénzügyminister által gyakoroltatik, Horvát-, Szlavon- és Dalmátországokra is kiterjed."
Sorry if I've pasted the wrong part of Hungarian text (my knowledge of Hungarian is very weak), but I hope you get the picture.
I hope I've helped.
Kubura (
talk) 01:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)