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The result was: promoted by
Desertarun (
talk)
14:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Source: International Journal of Social Psychiatry. Quote: "The aim of this article is to provide a narrative literature review of the ‘third gender’ phenomenon in Brazil (Travestis), India (Hijras) and Mexico (Muxes), considering the social stigma, the legal and health aspects of these identities."
Source: Transgender Rights (p. 267) . Quote: "The death of Alejandra Galicio represented the last step of an uninterrupted ladder of violence that permanently oppresses Argentinean and Latin American travesti communitites. The same stories of exclusion, discrimination, harassment, arbitrary detentions, tortures, and murders are reproduced far and wide throughout the continent."
Created/expanded by Rumba Samba Mambo ( talk). Self-nominated at 22:47, 9 June 2021 (UTC).
Rumba Samba Mambo, In this edit of 18:10, 20 July 2021 you added content which included this claim by Joseph M. Pierce which attempts to point out a characteristic of travesti by contrasting it with the meanings of transgender and other terms:
While transgender, trans, and transsexual are terms that refer to changing gender and sex through legal, corporeal, or social mechanisms, a travesti may have been assigned "male" at birth but does not necessarily consider herself a woman (though some do).
In my opinion, the portion before the comma is WP:FRINGE (and dubious), and the article should not contain it. I don't dispute the second part of the sentence, but the article should not include this quotation as representative of what transgender is about. If transgender or the other terms have different meanings in Argentina than they do in English-speaking countries, then that could be pointed out (with sources), which would make the Pierce statement make more sense.
Even minority views may be included in an article with in-text attribution, so arguably this could be kept if placed in a context that made it clear that the majority view was otherwise, but in the current context of the article, I think the quotation needs to be replaced by a source that better represents the majority view. Alternatively, a different Pierce quote could be chosen, that commented on travesti without making dubious claims about transgender or other terms. Mathglot ( talk) 19:03, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I've made an attempt to better handle the Hispanicisms travestism (note: no 'N') and travestility in the article. These are neologisms in English, and are used rarely outside of South American authors writing in English about the travesti topic. Most of this information has been moved out of the lead and into the #Terminology section, along with a couple of highly detailed paragraphs about the subtleties and distinctions between various terms not of interest to general readers who may never get past the lead. Mathglot ( talk) 20:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Rumba Samba Mambo, I initially wanted to write a brief paragraph here about possible WP:EDITORIALIZING (a very minor peccadillo) in your use of the word curious in the expression, "curious phenomenon" in this sentence, from revision 1035444862 of 18:27, 25 July 2021:
In recent years, there has been a curious phenomenon in advertising, which is hiring trans women but always demarcating this place from travestis.[ 76
While I was at it, I was also going to mention the unusual choice of words demarcating this place in that sentence which I couldn't understand, but that's probably even more minor. Since I read Portuguese, I went to the source to see what might have been the source for something you rendered as "demarcating this place". Unfortunately, I found this near-equivalent sentence about 2/3 of the way down the article, in the section about Roberta:
E aí, mais recentemente, tem ocorrido um fenômeno curioso na publicidade, que é contratar mulheres trans e sempre demarcar esse lugar da mulher trans, e não travesti clarify, principalmente nos meses de janeiro e junho, meses da visibilidade.
The English sentence you added, is nearly a word-for-word translation of the boxed portion above, before the clarify tag. This is, in my opinion, a copyright violation and thus must be removed immediately per Wikipedia's licensing requirements, or summarized in your own words, to remove the violation. (As an aside, instead of translating that as demarcating this place, more accurate in this context would have been distinguishing them from; but you can't use that either, as it's direct translation.)
As this is literally the only sentence I examined among your recent run of 31 edits (ending 21:49, 27 July 2021), I'm worried that there may be other occurrences of copying, or direct translation without attribution. This might require rolling back to revision 1034639183 of 01:41, 21 July 2021, or possibly undoing an earlier batch of 115 edits of yours back to the version of 18:10, 15 March 2021. Rolling back the 31 edits would not be difficult, as there are no intervening edits by other users. The larger rollback would involve reinstating a few dozen edits by 15 other editors, not an easy task, although many of them are modifications to your added material, and so would be moot if rolled back.
Pinging Diannaa for an opinion. Rumba Samba Mambo, I trust your good faith, so if you could weigh in and just clarify how many other examples of direct translation, or direct copying you have done from other articles in your recent edits (a: since 21 July; and b: since 15 March) and where they are, that might help us figure out whether it's easier to go forward from the most recent revision and remove or modify problematic material, or whether it's easier to rollback to one of the two points mentioned, and go forward from there. If you're not sure or don't remember, just say so. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 00:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Spain: "... advent of the medical model of transsexuality in the late 1980s and early 1990s, in order to rule out negative stereotypes."
I note there is no reference to that as it is false. This change happened post 2010 in Spain. Rustygecko ( talk) 04:07, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Travesti (gender identity) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | A fact from Travesti (gender identity) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 5 July 2021 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() |
|
![]() | This article was created or improved during WikiProject Latin America's " Latin American and the Caribbean 10,000 Challenge", which started on November 1, 2016, and is ongoing. You can help out! |
The result was: promoted by
Desertarun (
talk)
14:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Source: International Journal of Social Psychiatry. Quote: "The aim of this article is to provide a narrative literature review of the ‘third gender’ phenomenon in Brazil (Travestis), India (Hijras) and Mexico (Muxes), considering the social stigma, the legal and health aspects of these identities."
Source: Transgender Rights (p. 267) . Quote: "The death of Alejandra Galicio represented the last step of an uninterrupted ladder of violence that permanently oppresses Argentinean and Latin American travesti communitites. The same stories of exclusion, discrimination, harassment, arbitrary detentions, tortures, and murders are reproduced far and wide throughout the continent."
Created/expanded by Rumba Samba Mambo ( talk). Self-nominated at 22:47, 9 June 2021 (UTC).
Rumba Samba Mambo, In this edit of 18:10, 20 July 2021 you added content which included this claim by Joseph M. Pierce which attempts to point out a characteristic of travesti by contrasting it with the meanings of transgender and other terms:
While transgender, trans, and transsexual are terms that refer to changing gender and sex through legal, corporeal, or social mechanisms, a travesti may have been assigned "male" at birth but does not necessarily consider herself a woman (though some do).
In my opinion, the portion before the comma is WP:FRINGE (and dubious), and the article should not contain it. I don't dispute the second part of the sentence, but the article should not include this quotation as representative of what transgender is about. If transgender or the other terms have different meanings in Argentina than they do in English-speaking countries, then that could be pointed out (with sources), which would make the Pierce statement make more sense.
Even minority views may be included in an article with in-text attribution, so arguably this could be kept if placed in a context that made it clear that the majority view was otherwise, but in the current context of the article, I think the quotation needs to be replaced by a source that better represents the majority view. Alternatively, a different Pierce quote could be chosen, that commented on travesti without making dubious claims about transgender or other terms. Mathglot ( talk) 19:03, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I've made an attempt to better handle the Hispanicisms travestism (note: no 'N') and travestility in the article. These are neologisms in English, and are used rarely outside of South American authors writing in English about the travesti topic. Most of this information has been moved out of the lead and into the #Terminology section, along with a couple of highly detailed paragraphs about the subtleties and distinctions between various terms not of interest to general readers who may never get past the lead. Mathglot ( talk) 20:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Rumba Samba Mambo, I initially wanted to write a brief paragraph here about possible WP:EDITORIALIZING (a very minor peccadillo) in your use of the word curious in the expression, "curious phenomenon" in this sentence, from revision 1035444862 of 18:27, 25 July 2021:
In recent years, there has been a curious phenomenon in advertising, which is hiring trans women but always demarcating this place from travestis.[ 76
While I was at it, I was also going to mention the unusual choice of words demarcating this place in that sentence which I couldn't understand, but that's probably even more minor. Since I read Portuguese, I went to the source to see what might have been the source for something you rendered as "demarcating this place". Unfortunately, I found this near-equivalent sentence about 2/3 of the way down the article, in the section about Roberta:
E aí, mais recentemente, tem ocorrido um fenômeno curioso na publicidade, que é contratar mulheres trans e sempre demarcar esse lugar da mulher trans, e não travesti clarify, principalmente nos meses de janeiro e junho, meses da visibilidade.
The English sentence you added, is nearly a word-for-word translation of the boxed portion above, before the clarify tag. This is, in my opinion, a copyright violation and thus must be removed immediately per Wikipedia's licensing requirements, or summarized in your own words, to remove the violation. (As an aside, instead of translating that as demarcating this place, more accurate in this context would have been distinguishing them from; but you can't use that either, as it's direct translation.)
As this is literally the only sentence I examined among your recent run of 31 edits (ending 21:49, 27 July 2021), I'm worried that there may be other occurrences of copying, or direct translation without attribution. This might require rolling back to revision 1034639183 of 01:41, 21 July 2021, or possibly undoing an earlier batch of 115 edits of yours back to the version of 18:10, 15 March 2021. Rolling back the 31 edits would not be difficult, as there are no intervening edits by other users. The larger rollback would involve reinstating a few dozen edits by 15 other editors, not an easy task, although many of them are modifications to your added material, and so would be moot if rolled back.
Pinging Diannaa for an opinion. Rumba Samba Mambo, I trust your good faith, so if you could weigh in and just clarify how many other examples of direct translation, or direct copying you have done from other articles in your recent edits (a: since 21 July; and b: since 15 March) and where they are, that might help us figure out whether it's easier to go forward from the most recent revision and remove or modify problematic material, or whether it's easier to rollback to one of the two points mentioned, and go forward from there. If you're not sure or don't remember, just say so. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 00:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Spain: "... advent of the medical model of transsexuality in the late 1980s and early 1990s, in order to rule out negative stereotypes."
I note there is no reference to that as it is false. This change happened post 2010 in Spain. Rustygecko ( talk) 04:07, 5 December 2022 (UTC)