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Respectfully suggest that because Magma Taishi was never known in English as Ambassador Magma, it makes no sense to force Space Giants to be Ambassador Magma. In English, the show was most widely known as Space Giants, this is an English-language wiki, therefore Space Giants is the appropriate name of this article. The Hokkaido Crow 29 June 2005 06:57 (UTC)
With all due respect, whether you know the show as Ambassador Magma, The Space Giants, Space Avenger, Monsters from Outer Space, etc., there's no denying that the character Ambassador Magma at least had a history.
One can always learn about The Space Giants through Ambassador Magma, just as one can learn about, say, Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot through Giant Robo or Battle of the Planets through Gatchaman. Ryuuseipro
Japanese series with name changes are in an unusual position because due to the way fans use original sources, titles and characters are often more widely known by their non-American names in America than by their American names (cf. Usagi_Tsukino). Google shows 862 hits for "Ambassador Magma" and 853 for "Space Giants" (including several false hits). Ken Arromdee 18:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I will explain some of the changes I made in the section formerly called "Anti-Japanese sentiment." While I don't dispute that anti-Japanese sentiment and racism has existed in various forms, particularly in the US, I did not find that the information in the paragraph conclusively demonstrated this. The paragraph really describes the practice of adding familiar characters to increase the appeal in the target market, which happens on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific. Consumers simply want characters and settings that they can identify with. That is an important thing to describe, but it does not necessarily equate to racism or anti-Japanese sentiments. Here are some other things I felt it necessary to change:
All in all it's a good article and I enjoyed reading it.
Your revised version of my article is commendable. Except for one thing:
That was for Ultraman. For Ultraman: Towards the Future, Tsuburaya Productions was not trying to penetrate the Australian market, they were essentially trying to penetrate the North American market by way of Australia. Ultraman was already very popular Down Under. Ryuuseipro
Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article. The author(s) are obviously sympathizing with the Tokusatsu creators way too much, labeling America as cynical and acting like these movies were bullied out of the limelight in the United States. The movies are well known among most of the population, and they are well liked, if for different reasons. With all due respect, you can't pretend a film is up there with Citizen Kane when it primarily relies on special effects and the special effects aren't too good. The Tokusatsu films are an important part of cinematic history, but they aren't any messiah.-- 67.184.163.248 23:48, 10 September 2005 (UTC)Ikiroid
Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article.
Well, why don't you do something about it? You know, you can edit it yourself. I can't be the only one working on this article (and yes, I did the article you criticized, which another person here thoughtfully edited for me). Let's put our heads together.-- Ryuuseipro 10:32pm, 11 November 2005
Then again, the BBC's Doctor Who successfully scared children for over 20 years with similar special effects. Somebody who knows more than I do might want to tie in tokusatsu to its worldwide legacy? Lisa Paul 08:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with 67.184.163.248. The section "Perception of Tokusatsu in America" contains a lot of criticism of said perception instead of merely describing it, and the criticism is not attributed to anyone but instead stated as if it were absolutely right and the popular perception wrong. I think it would be better if this section were split in half, one describing what the popular peception is (was?) and then the counter-reaction to it. Besides, arguing who's right or wrong about the assessment of the quality (which is higly subjective) of some film type is not interesting in a reference work such as an encyclopedia. What one would rather read is a description of each POV, the reasons behind them and when and where and by whom such POV is held. The presentation (including emphasis) should also be organized accordingly.
Also, some of the language is not just POV, but rather unencyclopedic. "However, American fans like August Ragone and reporter Steve Ryfle have enlightened a skeptical media on this subject countless times, and people were profounded." Excuse me? Aside from the peculiar verbing of "profound", this is way too profuse for an encyclopedia :-) "enlightened" and "countless times" are both out, and so is "profounded" whether it's supposed to be "enlightened", "bewildered", "blown out of water" or whatever. Also wording like "Yes, some of these superheroes are altruistic, like" is not good, because it has "I'm trying to sell you this point and don't have enough convincing facts so I'm trying to make you a believer by speaking persuasively" written all over it. The normal policy is to describe the facts (including each POV if there are many, as there seem to be here) and let the reader make his own conclusions without preaching. 130.233.22.111 07:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
While I'm going to steer clear of much of the controversy regarding this page, I will suggest omitting the use of exclamation marks. If this is to have the proper tone for a reference piece, then some of the enthusiasm implied within just doesn't work.
or even tokusatsu kantoku (特撮監督), which is Japanese for, appropriately enough, "special effects director"!
We're here to inform people of the concept, not convince them of its viability as a medium. Wikipedia is not an advertising medium - it is intended to be impartial and factual. Please always keep that in mind.
So now I return to adding the last touches (for tonight) on the Karaoke Revolution song list, in which the Japanese "anime songs" compilation inexplicably includes tokusatsu themes (and before anyone goes gallivanting off to blame the Americans, it was Konami who perpetrated that themselves). ^_^
Cheers!
Miwa 08:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
This article has six templates. I'd like to get it down to at least three. Hbdragon88 06:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm really tempted to add something along the lines of the following to the page...
-- Schnee ( cheeks clone) 22:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Merge, the most sensible so far, although speedy deletion probably wouldn't be out of place. The only reason to have this as a separate page is as a peculiar kind of fancruft as one-upmanship. FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The 'arguments' above consist of reiteration. I also disagree that there are significant differences between anime and animation; certainly the latter covers a far wider stylistic range and anime could be described as a subset derived from the development of particular forms of mass production (which are also found in animation from other countries, whether the USA, Korea, or anywhere else making significant amounts for the mass market); this definition would exclude Miyazaki (who indeed excludes himself, though no doubt his western fans who see their devotion to his work as demonstrating what they like to see as an otaku-like interest in anime wouldn't want to know this).
Likewise men in monster suits and miniature work are hardly unique to a particular national tradition. Yes, the Ultraman tradition represents as much of a speciality as Marvel/DC superheroes, and certainly deserves a specific article, but this is not the same as Tokusatu. Ergo, Tokusatu is not a genre but a particular usage of particular sets of special effects.
Sean Black should not be so quick to assume what people do and don't know about; my original comment may have been sharp but was in response to an I-will-not-be-questioned tone, and I certainly know enough to contribute to this article. However, I strongly disagree with the classification and crufty tone and thus won't for now.
Usage on the Japanese wikipedia does not have any bearing. The large number of separate articles on Japan-related topics that could well be included under the more general headings is definitely a fan-driven form of exceptionalism. FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm listening, but not hearing any argument that makes sense. If you read my comments, you will see that I agree with Ryulong that Ultraman, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Power Rangers etc. form a (narrow) genre, with people in tight suits wearing funny masks or mask/helmet combinations, certain kinds of poses, certain kinds of futuristic military uniforms, etc. However, Godzilla is also tokusatu; this is quite a different genre.
Even worse for the theory, a movie like Casshern, if you've heard of it, a bad movie with some great effects and good scenes but not for children, is also commonly listed as tokusatu or tokusatu plus live action. Casshern is all live action plus CG. In the same search I find a page where a Japanese fan lists Tarkovsky's very serious SF movies in the list of tokusatu movies he likes. I think you are confused about the meaning of tokusatu because New Type's sister magazine mainly covers the Ultraman genre; at least, that's nearly always on the cover.
The Japanese WP article on Ultraman calls him one of Japan's giant metamorphic heroes or giant body-changing heroes, which seems reasonable as a genre name.
Every time the word tokusatu is used in that article, it simply means special effects. Anyway, that is not really relevant since this is the english-language wikipedia. FasterPussycatWooHoo 13:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Tokusatsu can mean mainly three things:
- Special effects ( ja:SFX)
- Movies and television programs that use special effects, which this article discusses
- A Japanese rock band ja:特撮 (バンド)
Special effects (abbreviated SPFX or SFX) are used in the film, television, and entertainment industry to realize scenes, such as space travel, that cannot be achieved by normal means. Why in the world would anyone in their right mind merge a genre of live-action Japanese entertainment, encompassing many subgenres of film and television into that article? It's not even relevant. And special effect furthermore does not need this information. Additionally, five people have responded to the merge request and none of them thought it was anywhere near a good idea. This article is its own article, and it has its own content, and it doesn't need to be put into any other article. This continued arguing is just disruptive.
(As an unrelated note, I think it's rather fanboy-ish to insist this article is about the Japanese word for special effects. It's about the genre, and it's ridiculously purist to insist that loanwords retain their original meanings. English Wikipedia, English usage.) -- Keitei ( talk) 21:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
As well as demonstrating his ignorance with Sean Black his misinterpretation of the terms I put up, the boy certainly finds it hard to be civil. There is no such genre as tokusatu, except among deluded fan-boys and fan-girls who think everything from Japan must be treated with reverence and awe. A science fiction movie is a science fiction movie, etc.
Ryūlóng's quote from the japanese wikipedia is pretty well correct, but says nothing about your imaginary special genre; it just says "movies and television programs that have special effects". Also, we are much more knowledgeable in this area of "Japanese fancruft" (as you once put it) than you are is incredibly rude and presumptious. How on earth do you know what I am and aren't knowledgeable about?
As well as an inanely pretentious username, User:Keitei also has trouble with civility. You have been taken in by an American marketing gimmick.
In any case, the page is a mess, part is about special effects and part is about the imaginary genre, it's full of odd PoV, etc.
Even worse, just about everything on this page is covered on multiple others. FasterPussycatWooHoo 15:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Mediation is required for Tokusatsu. User:FasterPussycatWooHoo is certainly correct in stating that there are at least a dozen other Anime topics covering the same material here, and as it is, Tokusatsu is a duplication of/or being text duplicated in other parts of Wikipedia. I realize that the people here have strong opinions of what Tokusatsu means. However, a Blog entry as a reference certainly doesn't have any credibility to me, and it indicates to me a serious lack of credible citations that prove that the current encyclopedic entry is verifiable, WP:NPOV, and not just a general belief. I will be happy to support keeping Tokusatsu in a cleaned-up form if suitable citations can be provided, but I haven't seen them yet. Gohiking 17:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
If you look towards the bottom of this article, you'll notice a ==References== section. These are the references. Therefore, an {{ unreferenced}} tag is uncalled for. I'm sure that all the editors working to rewrite and improve this article are aware that it needs inline citations and better referencing, but a huge tag at the top does nothing. If you want to help, please add {{ fact}}s where you think something should be cited instead. Cheers! -- Keitei ( talk) 19:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following section from the main page to here because it is confusing, contradictory, and not particularly encyclopedic. It also isn't verified or really important, for that matter. The first paragraph says that there's a "misconception" that "tokusatsu refers mainly to Japanese superhero shows" whereas in Japan it means something different. For one, is this a misconception or merely a loanword with a slightly different English meaning? Or does it mean that tokusatsu refers to all Japanese live action with special effects shows, not just superheroes (as the whole world ostensibly thinks)? For two, sources? How do we know this is a widespread misconception? The second paragraph says that this confusion dates back to an example where the word sentai is misused to mean tokusatsu. This doesn't follow. And again, no sources. If someone can reconcile these problems, feel free to put the section back.
-- Keitei ( talk) 20:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
So why aren't you calling it Sentai instead of the word you are trying to import/loan? FasterPussycatWooHoo 18:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
ca:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) és la forma d'anomenar els efectes especials en japonès, associat també a series d'acció real de ciencia ficció, fantasia o horror, tant en TV com pel·lícula.
es:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu es la abreviación de Tokushu Houka Satsuei, que literalmente significa "Fotografía especial", es un género televisivo japonés, que trata de series de acción y super héroes. Este género es demasiado antiguo, y ha perdurado durante mucho tiempo, hasta ahora.
fr:Tokusatsu : Les tokusatsu (contraction de tokubetsu satsuei qui signifie « effets spéciaux »), sont des séries télévisées japonaises riches en effets spéciaux. Elles dérivent des films de kaijû, les films de monstres, comme Godzilla.
id:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) adalah istilah dalam bahasa Jepang untuk special effects dan seringkali digunakan untuk menyebut film sci-fi/fantasi/horor live-action produksi Jepang.
pl:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (jap. 特撮) to termin, którym Japończycy określają efekty specjalne. Na Zachodzie pod tą nazwą znane są przede wszystkim filmy i seriale aktorskie, w których wykorzystana zostaje spora ilość takich efektów.
pt:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu é a abreviatura da expressão japonesa jissha tokusatsu, que pode ser traduzido como "filme de efeitos especiais". Atualmente é sinônimo de filme ou série live-action de superherói produzidos no Japão, com bastante ênfase nos efeitos especiais mesclando varias técnicas como: pirotecnia, computação gráfica, modelismo, entre outras.
sv:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) Termen komer av begreppet tokushu satsuei (特殊撮影) som betyder specialeffekter, och används om filmer och tv-serier som innehåller mycket specialeffekter. Utanför Japan används ordet främst om japanska superhjälteserier, som Ultraman och Kamen Rider.
Looks like more than Japanese and English to me. -- Keitei ( talk) 12:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
A bunch of links to other wikis where people with the same interests in promoting the misuse of this word prove nothing and certainly don't constitute an authoritative set of sources. FasterPussycatWooHoo 11:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
FasterPussycat... I'm not sure that all of your comments are completely helpful in this matter. Rather than suggesting that people are going to run off and request blocks, why not work with them to make the article better? I believe you've been asked about this before, if I am not mistaken. ++ Lar: t/ c 23:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are mistaken, I've never been asked to help or offer an opinion and, in violation of WP policy, have not received one sensible or logical response to any of the points I've made. The article is a blatant attempt to use wikipedia as a vehicle for propaganda in the form of another needless loan-word. Since it is a violation of WP:NPOV (as the claims made regarding the validity of the usage in Japanese and other languages are heavily POV and, as I've amply demonstrated, wrong), WP:V (most of the text), WP:NOT (on numerous WP:NOT points) and probably WP:NOR, it simply should not exist. FasterPussycatWooHoo 11:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I've translated the remaining Japanese titles into their respective English titles (using the official U.S. release title where able) and linked them to the appropriate articles if they exist. I've kept the links to the Japanese pages for movies that don't have a corresponding English article in hopes that perhaps someone will translate them and add them to Wikipedia. - Jacquismo 01:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed G-Savior from the list. It in no way reflects the Tokusatsu genre. The only special effects in it are CG and the standard theatrical affairs. Also, the movie was written and filmed in Canada. If you were to leave it on the list, you'd have no reason to not add other moves to the list, like The Marix, X-Men, or even shows like Heroes or The 4400. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.7.201.100 ( talk) 15:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
I was just thinking, with this dispute going on over the significance of tokusatsu, perhaps a better image could be used that better represents what this is? Such as perhaps a photo of Godzilla (due to recognition in the English speaking world?), or perhaps a group shot of some heroes in costume from a convention or team-up special? There's probably a good group shot of Kamen Rider(s) next to Metal Heroes and Sentai from a Toei festival or similar. Perhaps this might spark a battle between people who want to see "their favorite" pictured, but still I think a colorful photo of live-action footage is certainly more representative of a live-action genre than an almost monochrome cartoon is. Despite the fact it's of a sentai hero, it is rather misleading to someone unfamiliar with the term. The caption is also somewhat misleading, as only one series out of dozens feature "rangers". Theredcomet2000 02:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering, why is there a "Criticism" section? There's not even anything there! All it does is take up space. Besides, when there was actually stuff in it, it was, as Hbdragon88 said, just "pits so people can bash tokusatsu." So, since this section serves no purpose anyway, I'm going to delete it. Cabbage-Sama 16:45, 13 February 2008
I love how you criticized me for deleting the "Criticism" section, just to delete it yourself later. God, I love wikipedia. Cabbage-Sama 17:21, 1 September 2008
Following on from the somewhat agressively named accusations on the Administrators' noticeboard:
It surprised me to find vigorous opposition to my normal and literal use of "whom" tags in this article. The WP:WEASEL style guideline states: "Most critically, editors should not use passive voice constructs to avoid attributing words or actions to the appropriate speaker or subject, or to omit any other important detail from a sentence." The "whom" tag simply asks for more detail: who did or commissioned some dubbing from Japanese to English? for example. If such dubbing gets a mention, it has some importance/notability. Our encyclopedia can do without the conventional assumptions that such things "just happen", and give credit where appropriate or known. The tag provides a co-operative means whereby knowledgeable and less knowledgeable editors can collaborate in enriching and expanding articles, no? -- HoundsOfSpring ( talk) 06:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, while reading about Alternative universes I came across the term tokusatsu written in plain text in the article. Easily identifiable as a non-English word, and probably Japanese, I searched Wikipedia and ended up here.
This term should be in italics everywhere. According to MOS:Ety:
I prefer to post on the talk page before the edit, please pay attention to the phrase everyday use in non-specialised English, so whereas anime and manga have now thoroughly entered the mainsteream, tokusatsu has not. Captain Screebo ( talk) 17:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
@Ryulong: Okay, let's talk. This original American show was a ripoff of Power Rangers in response to that show's popularity when it first aired in the USA. First off: It's a bad show with terrible production values and bad writing. BUT: It's the FIRST American attempt to create an original Sentai-type show, although I'm not sure if there have been any other attempts since. The show's Tokusatsu/Super Sentai influence should be obvious to anybody who's watched the show. 4 young heroes transform into color-themed masked costumed heroes on a giant scale to acrobatically with rubbery costumed monsters. So it deserves some recognition as a "Toku-influenced" production, as much as Chinese "Armored Hero" or Indonesian "Bima Satria Garuda" (neither of which would win an Emmy award for writing BTW) This show is not: An adaptation of an existing Toku series — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zabadoh ( talk • contribs) 00:00, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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Respectfully suggest that because Magma Taishi was never known in English as Ambassador Magma, it makes no sense to force Space Giants to be Ambassador Magma. In English, the show was most widely known as Space Giants, this is an English-language wiki, therefore Space Giants is the appropriate name of this article. The Hokkaido Crow 29 June 2005 06:57 (UTC)
With all due respect, whether you know the show as Ambassador Magma, The Space Giants, Space Avenger, Monsters from Outer Space, etc., there's no denying that the character Ambassador Magma at least had a history.
One can always learn about The Space Giants through Ambassador Magma, just as one can learn about, say, Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot through Giant Robo or Battle of the Planets through Gatchaman. Ryuuseipro
Japanese series with name changes are in an unusual position because due to the way fans use original sources, titles and characters are often more widely known by their non-American names in America than by their American names (cf. Usagi_Tsukino). Google shows 862 hits for "Ambassador Magma" and 853 for "Space Giants" (including several false hits). Ken Arromdee 18:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I will explain some of the changes I made in the section formerly called "Anti-Japanese sentiment." While I don't dispute that anti-Japanese sentiment and racism has existed in various forms, particularly in the US, I did not find that the information in the paragraph conclusively demonstrated this. The paragraph really describes the practice of adding familiar characters to increase the appeal in the target market, which happens on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific. Consumers simply want characters and settings that they can identify with. That is an important thing to describe, but it does not necessarily equate to racism or anti-Japanese sentiments. Here are some other things I felt it necessary to change:
All in all it's a good article and I enjoyed reading it.
Your revised version of my article is commendable. Except for one thing:
That was for Ultraman. For Ultraman: Towards the Future, Tsuburaya Productions was not trying to penetrate the Australian market, they were essentially trying to penetrate the North American market by way of Australia. Ultraman was already very popular Down Under. Ryuuseipro
Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article. The author(s) are obviously sympathizing with the Tokusatsu creators way too much, labeling America as cynical and acting like these movies were bullied out of the limelight in the United States. The movies are well known among most of the population, and they are well liked, if for different reasons. With all due respect, you can't pretend a film is up there with Citizen Kane when it primarily relies on special effects and the special effects aren't too good. The Tokusatsu films are an important part of cinematic history, but they aren't any messiah.-- 67.184.163.248 23:48, 10 September 2005 (UTC)Ikiroid
Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article.
Well, why don't you do something about it? You know, you can edit it yourself. I can't be the only one working on this article (and yes, I did the article you criticized, which another person here thoughtfully edited for me). Let's put our heads together.-- Ryuuseipro 10:32pm, 11 November 2005
Then again, the BBC's Doctor Who successfully scared children for over 20 years with similar special effects. Somebody who knows more than I do might want to tie in tokusatsu to its worldwide legacy? Lisa Paul 08:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with 67.184.163.248. The section "Perception of Tokusatsu in America" contains a lot of criticism of said perception instead of merely describing it, and the criticism is not attributed to anyone but instead stated as if it were absolutely right and the popular perception wrong. I think it would be better if this section were split in half, one describing what the popular peception is (was?) and then the counter-reaction to it. Besides, arguing who's right or wrong about the assessment of the quality (which is higly subjective) of some film type is not interesting in a reference work such as an encyclopedia. What one would rather read is a description of each POV, the reasons behind them and when and where and by whom such POV is held. The presentation (including emphasis) should also be organized accordingly.
Also, some of the language is not just POV, but rather unencyclopedic. "However, American fans like August Ragone and reporter Steve Ryfle have enlightened a skeptical media on this subject countless times, and people were profounded." Excuse me? Aside from the peculiar verbing of "profound", this is way too profuse for an encyclopedia :-) "enlightened" and "countless times" are both out, and so is "profounded" whether it's supposed to be "enlightened", "bewildered", "blown out of water" or whatever. Also wording like "Yes, some of these superheroes are altruistic, like" is not good, because it has "I'm trying to sell you this point and don't have enough convincing facts so I'm trying to make you a believer by speaking persuasively" written all over it. The normal policy is to describe the facts (including each POV if there are many, as there seem to be here) and let the reader make his own conclusions without preaching. 130.233.22.111 07:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
While I'm going to steer clear of much of the controversy regarding this page, I will suggest omitting the use of exclamation marks. If this is to have the proper tone for a reference piece, then some of the enthusiasm implied within just doesn't work.
or even tokusatsu kantoku (特撮監督), which is Japanese for, appropriately enough, "special effects director"!
We're here to inform people of the concept, not convince them of its viability as a medium. Wikipedia is not an advertising medium - it is intended to be impartial and factual. Please always keep that in mind.
So now I return to adding the last touches (for tonight) on the Karaoke Revolution song list, in which the Japanese "anime songs" compilation inexplicably includes tokusatsu themes (and before anyone goes gallivanting off to blame the Americans, it was Konami who perpetrated that themselves). ^_^
Cheers!
Miwa 08:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
This article has six templates. I'd like to get it down to at least three. Hbdragon88 06:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm really tempted to add something along the lines of the following to the page...
-- Schnee ( cheeks clone) 22:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Merge, the most sensible so far, although speedy deletion probably wouldn't be out of place. The only reason to have this as a separate page is as a peculiar kind of fancruft as one-upmanship. FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The 'arguments' above consist of reiteration. I also disagree that there are significant differences between anime and animation; certainly the latter covers a far wider stylistic range and anime could be described as a subset derived from the development of particular forms of mass production (which are also found in animation from other countries, whether the USA, Korea, or anywhere else making significant amounts for the mass market); this definition would exclude Miyazaki (who indeed excludes himself, though no doubt his western fans who see their devotion to his work as demonstrating what they like to see as an otaku-like interest in anime wouldn't want to know this).
Likewise men in monster suits and miniature work are hardly unique to a particular national tradition. Yes, the Ultraman tradition represents as much of a speciality as Marvel/DC superheroes, and certainly deserves a specific article, but this is not the same as Tokusatu. Ergo, Tokusatu is not a genre but a particular usage of particular sets of special effects.
Sean Black should not be so quick to assume what people do and don't know about; my original comment may have been sharp but was in response to an I-will-not-be-questioned tone, and I certainly know enough to contribute to this article. However, I strongly disagree with the classification and crufty tone and thus won't for now.
Usage on the Japanese wikipedia does not have any bearing. The large number of separate articles on Japan-related topics that could well be included under the more general headings is definitely a fan-driven form of exceptionalism. FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm listening, but not hearing any argument that makes sense. If you read my comments, you will see that I agree with Ryulong that Ultraman, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Power Rangers etc. form a (narrow) genre, with people in tight suits wearing funny masks or mask/helmet combinations, certain kinds of poses, certain kinds of futuristic military uniforms, etc. However, Godzilla is also tokusatu; this is quite a different genre.
Even worse for the theory, a movie like Casshern, if you've heard of it, a bad movie with some great effects and good scenes but not for children, is also commonly listed as tokusatu or tokusatu plus live action. Casshern is all live action plus CG. In the same search I find a page where a Japanese fan lists Tarkovsky's very serious SF movies in the list of tokusatu movies he likes. I think you are confused about the meaning of tokusatu because New Type's sister magazine mainly covers the Ultraman genre; at least, that's nearly always on the cover.
The Japanese WP article on Ultraman calls him one of Japan's giant metamorphic heroes or giant body-changing heroes, which seems reasonable as a genre name.
Every time the word tokusatu is used in that article, it simply means special effects. Anyway, that is not really relevant since this is the english-language wikipedia. FasterPussycatWooHoo 13:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Tokusatsu can mean mainly three things:
- Special effects ( ja:SFX)
- Movies and television programs that use special effects, which this article discusses
- A Japanese rock band ja:特撮 (バンド)
Special effects (abbreviated SPFX or SFX) are used in the film, television, and entertainment industry to realize scenes, such as space travel, that cannot be achieved by normal means. Why in the world would anyone in their right mind merge a genre of live-action Japanese entertainment, encompassing many subgenres of film and television into that article? It's not even relevant. And special effect furthermore does not need this information. Additionally, five people have responded to the merge request and none of them thought it was anywhere near a good idea. This article is its own article, and it has its own content, and it doesn't need to be put into any other article. This continued arguing is just disruptive.
(As an unrelated note, I think it's rather fanboy-ish to insist this article is about the Japanese word for special effects. It's about the genre, and it's ridiculously purist to insist that loanwords retain their original meanings. English Wikipedia, English usage.) -- Keitei ( talk) 21:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
As well as demonstrating his ignorance with Sean Black his misinterpretation of the terms I put up, the boy certainly finds it hard to be civil. There is no such genre as tokusatu, except among deluded fan-boys and fan-girls who think everything from Japan must be treated with reverence and awe. A science fiction movie is a science fiction movie, etc.
Ryūlóng's quote from the japanese wikipedia is pretty well correct, but says nothing about your imaginary special genre; it just says "movies and television programs that have special effects". Also, we are much more knowledgeable in this area of "Japanese fancruft" (as you once put it) than you are is incredibly rude and presumptious. How on earth do you know what I am and aren't knowledgeable about?
As well as an inanely pretentious username, User:Keitei also has trouble with civility. You have been taken in by an American marketing gimmick.
In any case, the page is a mess, part is about special effects and part is about the imaginary genre, it's full of odd PoV, etc.
Even worse, just about everything on this page is covered on multiple others. FasterPussycatWooHoo 15:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Mediation is required for Tokusatsu. User:FasterPussycatWooHoo is certainly correct in stating that there are at least a dozen other Anime topics covering the same material here, and as it is, Tokusatsu is a duplication of/or being text duplicated in other parts of Wikipedia. I realize that the people here have strong opinions of what Tokusatsu means. However, a Blog entry as a reference certainly doesn't have any credibility to me, and it indicates to me a serious lack of credible citations that prove that the current encyclopedic entry is verifiable, WP:NPOV, and not just a general belief. I will be happy to support keeping Tokusatsu in a cleaned-up form if suitable citations can be provided, but I haven't seen them yet. Gohiking 17:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
If you look towards the bottom of this article, you'll notice a ==References== section. These are the references. Therefore, an {{ unreferenced}} tag is uncalled for. I'm sure that all the editors working to rewrite and improve this article are aware that it needs inline citations and better referencing, but a huge tag at the top does nothing. If you want to help, please add {{ fact}}s where you think something should be cited instead. Cheers! -- Keitei ( talk) 19:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following section from the main page to here because it is confusing, contradictory, and not particularly encyclopedic. It also isn't verified or really important, for that matter. The first paragraph says that there's a "misconception" that "tokusatsu refers mainly to Japanese superhero shows" whereas in Japan it means something different. For one, is this a misconception or merely a loanword with a slightly different English meaning? Or does it mean that tokusatsu refers to all Japanese live action with special effects shows, not just superheroes (as the whole world ostensibly thinks)? For two, sources? How do we know this is a widespread misconception? The second paragraph says that this confusion dates back to an example where the word sentai is misused to mean tokusatsu. This doesn't follow. And again, no sources. If someone can reconcile these problems, feel free to put the section back.
-- Keitei ( talk) 20:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
So why aren't you calling it Sentai instead of the word you are trying to import/loan? FasterPussycatWooHoo 18:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
ca:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) és la forma d'anomenar els efectes especials en japonès, associat també a series d'acció real de ciencia ficció, fantasia o horror, tant en TV com pel·lícula.
es:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu es la abreviación de Tokushu Houka Satsuei, que literalmente significa "Fotografía especial", es un género televisivo japonés, que trata de series de acción y super héroes. Este género es demasiado antiguo, y ha perdurado durante mucho tiempo, hasta ahora.
fr:Tokusatsu : Les tokusatsu (contraction de tokubetsu satsuei qui signifie « effets spéciaux »), sont des séries télévisées japonaises riches en effets spéciaux. Elles dérivent des films de kaijû, les films de monstres, comme Godzilla.
id:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) adalah istilah dalam bahasa Jepang untuk special effects dan seringkali digunakan untuk menyebut film sci-fi/fantasi/horor live-action produksi Jepang.
pl:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (jap. 特撮) to termin, którym Japończycy określają efekty specjalne. Na Zachodzie pod tą nazwą znane są przede wszystkim filmy i seriale aktorskie, w których wykorzystana zostaje spora ilość takich efektów.
pt:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu é a abreviatura da expressão japonesa jissha tokusatsu, que pode ser traduzido como "filme de efeitos especiais". Atualmente é sinônimo de filme ou série live-action de superherói produzidos no Japão, com bastante ênfase nos efeitos especiais mesclando varias técnicas como: pirotecnia, computação gráfica, modelismo, entre outras.
sv:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) Termen komer av begreppet tokushu satsuei (特殊撮影) som betyder specialeffekter, och används om filmer och tv-serier som innehåller mycket specialeffekter. Utanför Japan används ordet främst om japanska superhjälteserier, som Ultraman och Kamen Rider.
Looks like more than Japanese and English to me. -- Keitei ( talk) 12:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
A bunch of links to other wikis where people with the same interests in promoting the misuse of this word prove nothing and certainly don't constitute an authoritative set of sources. FasterPussycatWooHoo 11:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
FasterPussycat... I'm not sure that all of your comments are completely helpful in this matter. Rather than suggesting that people are going to run off and request blocks, why not work with them to make the article better? I believe you've been asked about this before, if I am not mistaken. ++ Lar: t/ c 23:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are mistaken, I've never been asked to help or offer an opinion and, in violation of WP policy, have not received one sensible or logical response to any of the points I've made. The article is a blatant attempt to use wikipedia as a vehicle for propaganda in the form of another needless loan-word. Since it is a violation of WP:NPOV (as the claims made regarding the validity of the usage in Japanese and other languages are heavily POV and, as I've amply demonstrated, wrong), WP:V (most of the text), WP:NOT (on numerous WP:NOT points) and probably WP:NOR, it simply should not exist. FasterPussycatWooHoo 11:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I've translated the remaining Japanese titles into their respective English titles (using the official U.S. release title where able) and linked them to the appropriate articles if they exist. I've kept the links to the Japanese pages for movies that don't have a corresponding English article in hopes that perhaps someone will translate them and add them to Wikipedia. - Jacquismo 01:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed G-Savior from the list. It in no way reflects the Tokusatsu genre. The only special effects in it are CG and the standard theatrical affairs. Also, the movie was written and filmed in Canada. If you were to leave it on the list, you'd have no reason to not add other moves to the list, like The Marix, X-Men, or even shows like Heroes or The 4400. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.7.201.100 ( talk) 15:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
I was just thinking, with this dispute going on over the significance of tokusatsu, perhaps a better image could be used that better represents what this is? Such as perhaps a photo of Godzilla (due to recognition in the English speaking world?), or perhaps a group shot of some heroes in costume from a convention or team-up special? There's probably a good group shot of Kamen Rider(s) next to Metal Heroes and Sentai from a Toei festival or similar. Perhaps this might spark a battle between people who want to see "their favorite" pictured, but still I think a colorful photo of live-action footage is certainly more representative of a live-action genre than an almost monochrome cartoon is. Despite the fact it's of a sentai hero, it is rather misleading to someone unfamiliar with the term. The caption is also somewhat misleading, as only one series out of dozens feature "rangers". Theredcomet2000 02:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering, why is there a "Criticism" section? There's not even anything there! All it does is take up space. Besides, when there was actually stuff in it, it was, as Hbdragon88 said, just "pits so people can bash tokusatsu." So, since this section serves no purpose anyway, I'm going to delete it. Cabbage-Sama 16:45, 13 February 2008
I love how you criticized me for deleting the "Criticism" section, just to delete it yourself later. God, I love wikipedia. Cabbage-Sama 17:21, 1 September 2008
Following on from the somewhat agressively named accusations on the Administrators' noticeboard:
It surprised me to find vigorous opposition to my normal and literal use of "whom" tags in this article. The WP:WEASEL style guideline states: "Most critically, editors should not use passive voice constructs to avoid attributing words or actions to the appropriate speaker or subject, or to omit any other important detail from a sentence." The "whom" tag simply asks for more detail: who did or commissioned some dubbing from Japanese to English? for example. If such dubbing gets a mention, it has some importance/notability. Our encyclopedia can do without the conventional assumptions that such things "just happen", and give credit where appropriate or known. The tag provides a co-operative means whereby knowledgeable and less knowledgeable editors can collaborate in enriching and expanding articles, no? -- HoundsOfSpring ( talk) 06:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, while reading about Alternative universes I came across the term tokusatsu written in plain text in the article. Easily identifiable as a non-English word, and probably Japanese, I searched Wikipedia and ended up here.
This term should be in italics everywhere. According to MOS:Ety:
I prefer to post on the talk page before the edit, please pay attention to the phrase everyday use in non-specialised English, so whereas anime and manga have now thoroughly entered the mainsteream, tokusatsu has not. Captain Screebo ( talk) 17:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
@Ryulong: Okay, let's talk. This original American show was a ripoff of Power Rangers in response to that show's popularity when it first aired in the USA. First off: It's a bad show with terrible production values and bad writing. BUT: It's the FIRST American attempt to create an original Sentai-type show, although I'm not sure if there have been any other attempts since. The show's Tokusatsu/Super Sentai influence should be obvious to anybody who's watched the show. 4 young heroes transform into color-themed masked costumed heroes on a giant scale to acrobatically with rubbery costumed monsters. So it deserves some recognition as a "Toku-influenced" production, as much as Chinese "Armored Hero" or Indonesian "Bima Satria Garuda" (neither of which would win an Emmy award for writing BTW) This show is not: An adaptation of an existing Toku series — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zabadoh ( talk • contribs) 00:00, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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