This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
The contents of the Timeline of Philippine sovereignty page were merged into Timeline of Philippine political history on 7 April 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Please see Talk:Timeline of Philippine sovereignty#Merger with Political history of the Philippines. CMD ( talk) 09:49, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
I just stumbled over this article. I'm not sure whether I've seen it previously, but I don't remember having seen it. I did look back a bit and have seen Talk:Timeline of Philippine sovereignty#Merger with Political history of the Philippines, but those articles are apparently only loosely related to this one. The lead sentence of the article says: "This article presents a timeline of the sovereignty [...]", which is not the same thing that the title of the article indicates. Also, some of its assertions re sovereignty are not supported and appear not to be factual. I think that the problem with factuality may have its roots in the difference between the assertion of sovereignty by a revolutionary group or organization and sovereignty held by by an entity outside of the group and, as in this case, generally recognized by the community of nations. I hope that is clear. I suggest that this article be revised to correct this or removed. I have not formalized this suggestion. Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 20:10, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
(inserted 08:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC) WTM Proposed table revisions have evolved and, to minimize clutter, this later-revised version has been elided.
(inserted 08:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC) WTM Proposed table revisions have evolved and, to minimize clutter, this later-revised version has been elided.
What's there to dispute? From a purely international point of view, sovereignty was all Spanish until it became American with the Treaty of Paris. All the revolutionary governments were unrecognized by everyone else and to assert "valid sovereignity" is just Filipino nationalism talking. Asado ( talk) 01:39, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Date range [a] | Before 900 | April 27, 1565- December 10, 1898 |
August 25, 1896- May 10, 1897 |
March 22, 1897- November 1, 1897 |
November 1, 1897- December 14, 1897 |
May 24, 1898- June 23, 1898 |
June 23, 1898- January 23, 1899 |
January 23, 1899- March 23, 1901 |
May 6, 1902- July 14, 1906 |
August 14, 1898- July 1, 1902 |
July 4, 1901- November 15, 1935 |
November 15, 1935- October 22, 1946 |
October 14, 1943- August 17, 1945 |
July 4, 1946- December 30, 1965 |
December 30, 1965- February 25, 1986 |
February 2, 1987- |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Sovereign entity |
None | Spain | United States | Disputed | Republic of the Philippines | |||||||||||
Governing body | None | Spanish East Indies | Disputed | Disputed | Philippine Commission | Commonwealth of the Philippines | Second Philippine Republic | Republic of the Philippines | ||||||||
Polities | Pre-Colonial Philippines | Spanish East Indies |
Republika ng Katagalugan aka Haring-Bayang Katagalugan |
Republica Filipina aka Republica de Filipinas aka Pahamalaan ng Sangkatagalugan |
Republica de Filipinas | Gobierno Dictatorial | Gobierno Revolucionario | Philippine Commission and Republica Filipina |
Republika ng Katagalugan aka Republika ng Kapuluang Katagalugan |
US Military Government | US Insular Government | Commonwealth of the Philippines | Second Philippine Republic and Government of the Commonwealth of the Philippines in exile | Third Republic of the Philippines | Fourth Republic of the Philippines | Fifth Republic of the Philippines |
[...] | ||||||||||||||||
Notes' |
|
I think this table revision proposal has evolved far enough here for it to be inserted in to the active article and the {{ disputed}} tag removed from there. Further revisions can be done as needed in the live article without having those revisions treated as part of a dispute under discussion. Discussion? Objections? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 08:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
I started drafting additional footnotes, and that process led to yet another revision in place to these drafted changes in the table, as follows:
Date range [a] | Before 900 | April 27, 1565- December 10, 1898 |
August 25, 1896- May 10, 1897 |
March 22, 1897- November 1, 1897 |
November 1, 1897- December 14, 1897 |
May 24, 1898- June 23, 1898 |
June 23, 1898- January 23, 1899 |
January 23, 1899- March 23, 1901 |
May 6, 1902- July 14, 1906 |
August 14, 1898- July 1, 1902 |
July 4, 1901- November 15, 1935 |
November 15, 1935- October 22, 1946 |
October 14, 1943- August 17, 1945 |
July 4, 1946- December 30, 1965 |
December 30, 1965- February 25, 1986 |
February 2, 1987- |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Sovereign entity |
None | Spain | Disputed [b] | United States | Disputed | Republic of the Philippines | ||||||||||
Governing body | None | Spanish East Indies | Disputed [c] | Philippine Commission | Commonwealth of the Philippines | Second Philippine Republic | Republic of the Philippines | |||||||||
Polities | Pre-Colonial Philippines | Spanish East Indies |
Republika ng Katagalugan aka Haring-Bayang Katagalugan |
Republica Filipina aka Republica de Filipinas aka Pahamalaan ng Sangkatagalugan |
Republica de Filipinas | Gobierno Dictatorial | Gobierno Revolucionario | Philippine Commission and Republica Filipina |
Republika ng Katagalugan aka Republika ng Kapuluang Katagalugan |
US Military Government | US Insular Government | Commonwealth of the Philippines | Second Philippine Republic and Government of the Commonwealth of the Philippines in exile | Third Republic of the Philippines | Fourth Republic of the Philippines | Fifth Republic of the Philippines |
[...] | ||||||||||||||||
Notes |
|
These changes added clarifying footnotes for the areas identified as "Disputed" in the table about which Asado raised concern above. They also re-cast the dispute during the First Philippine Republic period as a dispute over sovereignty rather than as a dispute over governing authority under colonial sovereignty. I've left the earlier version visible above to illustrate the differnece this latest change makes.
I'll plan to move these changes into the article tomorrow, unless there are further objections. Once again, the purpose of these changes is to resolve this dispute re the oversimplified depiction in the table of the sovereignty situation. Once this is done, this discussion can be closed, the {{ disputed}} hatnote can be removed from the article, and separate discussions opened as needed re specific matters of editorial concern. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 16:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Here, I've merged these table rows into the table in the article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:24, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
A number of wikilinks in this article, though target Wikipedia articles with English language titles, display piped wikilink names in the Tagalog language. As amny of those Tagalog language names are real jaw-breakers for non-Tagalog speakers and are difficult even when subvocalized while reading, as this is the English Wikipedia, and as the articles targeted are titled in the English language, I propose that these wikilinks display the English language titles of their targets. Objections? Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
(Major pause pending result from the section below) I've paused doing further work on this pending a result from discussion of a wider suggestion in the section below. I expect to back the edits described above out very shortly pending that result. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:17, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Maybe I'm seeing more problems with this article in its current state than exist, but it seems to me that it is a godawful mess. I characterize it that way reluctantly, but that's how it looks to me. Part of that comes from the fact that I'm more comfortable scrolling vertically than horizontally, part of it comes from the dispute discussion above ( here), part of it from the difficulties I ran into above trying to fit wikilinks piped with Tagalog language labels into the English Wikipedia, but mostly from a combination of all of that.
It seems to me that all of this difficulty began with this edit without comment by an anonymous editor which added the Chronology section and the table within it.The story behind this may be more complicated than that but, if it is, I am unaware of the complications. I won't cast this as a proposal, but I am suggesting that this article be reverted to the version prior to that edit and this merge-from be undone.
I created that merge-from article back in 2009, but I've never been happy with it and this isn't a case of editorial vanity fun amok (or at least I don't think it is). Perhaps I should have discussed this semi-privately with CMD (an editor I respect and often defer to) before airing it here, but I think this needs wider consideration. Please do discuss this below. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:17, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
We all want to lump the Marcos era into one "era" but for the purposes of this article, the 4th Republic didn't start on December 30, 1965 (when Marcos became president). Howard the Duck ( talk) 14:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
There are some problems cells of the Plotiies row of the table. I've marked those cells <n> below, with n being 1 and 2:
Rough explanation:
I propose the following:
except that where I have indicated * above, there would instead be a link to a clarifying footnote re the transition from US military to US civil colonial government.
Also, I note that the US flags need to be redone to period-correct flags.
Barring discussion to the contrary, I will probably do this in a week or so. Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 20:32, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
I have updated my previous draft of proposed updates to the Polities row of the table. Besides updatinng the US Colonialism columns, I've extended acknowledgement in the table of continued Spanish sovereignty following the Philippine Declaration of Independence. Please discuss any objections to or further changes proposed in this table row. I hope to update this row of the table in the article in a few days.
Updates to this version since originally posted here
Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Done -- Here, I've updated the Polities row in the table to match the row shown above. I think further changes are probably needed in this and other table rows, but discussion in this talk page section is not needed for that. , Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:44, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
In this series of edits, I have WP:BOLDly edited the Sovereign Entity and Governing Body table rows, attempting to reconcile or clarify apparent conflicts. I also inserted a row introduced as NOTE indicating that table content below that point reflects the viewpoint of the post-independence Philippine government regarding pre-independence history. This is an attempt to address the fact that, below that point, information re U.S. administration during the period of conflict between the U.S. and Filipino revolutionaries is pretty much absent. I am not at all sure that the table reflects even this correctly -- for example, in the Constitutional Document row cell of the August 14, 1898 – July 1, 1902 column. Please discuss here and/or improve on my changes. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:38, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
The contents of the Timeline of Philippine sovereignty page were merged into Timeline of Philippine political history on 7 April 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Please see Talk:Timeline of Philippine sovereignty#Merger with Political history of the Philippines. CMD ( talk) 09:49, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
I just stumbled over this article. I'm not sure whether I've seen it previously, but I don't remember having seen it. I did look back a bit and have seen Talk:Timeline of Philippine sovereignty#Merger with Political history of the Philippines, but those articles are apparently only loosely related to this one. The lead sentence of the article says: "This article presents a timeline of the sovereignty [...]", which is not the same thing that the title of the article indicates. Also, some of its assertions re sovereignty are not supported and appear not to be factual. I think that the problem with factuality may have its roots in the difference between the assertion of sovereignty by a revolutionary group or organization and sovereignty held by by an entity outside of the group and, as in this case, generally recognized by the community of nations. I hope that is clear. I suggest that this article be revised to correct this or removed. I have not formalized this suggestion. Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 20:10, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
(inserted 08:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC) WTM Proposed table revisions have evolved and, to minimize clutter, this later-revised version has been elided.
(inserted 08:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC) WTM Proposed table revisions have evolved and, to minimize clutter, this later-revised version has been elided.
What's there to dispute? From a purely international point of view, sovereignty was all Spanish until it became American with the Treaty of Paris. All the revolutionary governments were unrecognized by everyone else and to assert "valid sovereignity" is just Filipino nationalism talking. Asado ( talk) 01:39, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Date range [a] | Before 900 | April 27, 1565- December 10, 1898 |
August 25, 1896- May 10, 1897 |
March 22, 1897- November 1, 1897 |
November 1, 1897- December 14, 1897 |
May 24, 1898- June 23, 1898 |
June 23, 1898- January 23, 1899 |
January 23, 1899- March 23, 1901 |
May 6, 1902- July 14, 1906 |
August 14, 1898- July 1, 1902 |
July 4, 1901- November 15, 1935 |
November 15, 1935- October 22, 1946 |
October 14, 1943- August 17, 1945 |
July 4, 1946- December 30, 1965 |
December 30, 1965- February 25, 1986 |
February 2, 1987- |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Sovereign entity |
None | Spain | United States | Disputed | Republic of the Philippines | |||||||||||
Governing body | None | Spanish East Indies | Disputed | Disputed | Philippine Commission | Commonwealth of the Philippines | Second Philippine Republic | Republic of the Philippines | ||||||||
Polities | Pre-Colonial Philippines | Spanish East Indies |
Republika ng Katagalugan aka Haring-Bayang Katagalugan |
Republica Filipina aka Republica de Filipinas aka Pahamalaan ng Sangkatagalugan |
Republica de Filipinas | Gobierno Dictatorial | Gobierno Revolucionario | Philippine Commission and Republica Filipina |
Republika ng Katagalugan aka Republika ng Kapuluang Katagalugan |
US Military Government | US Insular Government | Commonwealth of the Philippines | Second Philippine Republic and Government of the Commonwealth of the Philippines in exile | Third Republic of the Philippines | Fourth Republic of the Philippines | Fifth Republic of the Philippines |
[...] | ||||||||||||||||
Notes' |
|
I think this table revision proposal has evolved far enough here for it to be inserted in to the active article and the {{ disputed}} tag removed from there. Further revisions can be done as needed in the live article without having those revisions treated as part of a dispute under discussion. Discussion? Objections? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 08:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
I started drafting additional footnotes, and that process led to yet another revision in place to these drafted changes in the table, as follows:
Date range [a] | Before 900 | April 27, 1565- December 10, 1898 |
August 25, 1896- May 10, 1897 |
March 22, 1897- November 1, 1897 |
November 1, 1897- December 14, 1897 |
May 24, 1898- June 23, 1898 |
June 23, 1898- January 23, 1899 |
January 23, 1899- March 23, 1901 |
May 6, 1902- July 14, 1906 |
August 14, 1898- July 1, 1902 |
July 4, 1901- November 15, 1935 |
November 15, 1935- October 22, 1946 |
October 14, 1943- August 17, 1945 |
July 4, 1946- December 30, 1965 |
December 30, 1965- February 25, 1986 |
February 2, 1987- |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Sovereign entity |
None | Spain | Disputed [b] | United States | Disputed | Republic of the Philippines | ||||||||||
Governing body | None | Spanish East Indies | Disputed [c] | Philippine Commission | Commonwealth of the Philippines | Second Philippine Republic | Republic of the Philippines | |||||||||
Polities | Pre-Colonial Philippines | Spanish East Indies |
Republika ng Katagalugan aka Haring-Bayang Katagalugan |
Republica Filipina aka Republica de Filipinas aka Pahamalaan ng Sangkatagalugan |
Republica de Filipinas | Gobierno Dictatorial | Gobierno Revolucionario | Philippine Commission and Republica Filipina |
Republika ng Katagalugan aka Republika ng Kapuluang Katagalugan |
US Military Government | US Insular Government | Commonwealth of the Philippines | Second Philippine Republic and Government of the Commonwealth of the Philippines in exile | Third Republic of the Philippines | Fourth Republic of the Philippines | Fifth Republic of the Philippines |
[...] | ||||||||||||||||
Notes |
|
These changes added clarifying footnotes for the areas identified as "Disputed" in the table about which Asado raised concern above. They also re-cast the dispute during the First Philippine Republic period as a dispute over sovereignty rather than as a dispute over governing authority under colonial sovereignty. I've left the earlier version visible above to illustrate the differnece this latest change makes.
I'll plan to move these changes into the article tomorrow, unless there are further objections. Once again, the purpose of these changes is to resolve this dispute re the oversimplified depiction in the table of the sovereignty situation. Once this is done, this discussion can be closed, the {{ disputed}} hatnote can be removed from the article, and separate discussions opened as needed re specific matters of editorial concern. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 16:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Here, I've merged these table rows into the table in the article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:24, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
A number of wikilinks in this article, though target Wikipedia articles with English language titles, display piped wikilink names in the Tagalog language. As amny of those Tagalog language names are real jaw-breakers for non-Tagalog speakers and are difficult even when subvocalized while reading, as this is the English Wikipedia, and as the articles targeted are titled in the English language, I propose that these wikilinks display the English language titles of their targets. Objections? Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
(Major pause pending result from the section below) I've paused doing further work on this pending a result from discussion of a wider suggestion in the section below. I expect to back the edits described above out very shortly pending that result. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:17, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Maybe I'm seeing more problems with this article in its current state than exist, but it seems to me that it is a godawful mess. I characterize it that way reluctantly, but that's how it looks to me. Part of that comes from the fact that I'm more comfortable scrolling vertically than horizontally, part of it comes from the dispute discussion above ( here), part of it from the difficulties I ran into above trying to fit wikilinks piped with Tagalog language labels into the English Wikipedia, but mostly from a combination of all of that.
It seems to me that all of this difficulty began with this edit without comment by an anonymous editor which added the Chronology section and the table within it.The story behind this may be more complicated than that but, if it is, I am unaware of the complications. I won't cast this as a proposal, but I am suggesting that this article be reverted to the version prior to that edit and this merge-from be undone.
I created that merge-from article back in 2009, but I've never been happy with it and this isn't a case of editorial vanity fun amok (or at least I don't think it is). Perhaps I should have discussed this semi-privately with CMD (an editor I respect and often defer to) before airing it here, but I think this needs wider consideration. Please do discuss this below. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:17, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
We all want to lump the Marcos era into one "era" but for the purposes of this article, the 4th Republic didn't start on December 30, 1965 (when Marcos became president). Howard the Duck ( talk) 14:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
There are some problems cells of the Plotiies row of the table. I've marked those cells <n> below, with n being 1 and 2:
Rough explanation:
I propose the following:
except that where I have indicated * above, there would instead be a link to a clarifying footnote re the transition from US military to US civil colonial government.
Also, I note that the US flags need to be redone to period-correct flags.
Barring discussion to the contrary, I will probably do this in a week or so. Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 20:32, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
I have updated my previous draft of proposed updates to the Polities row of the table. Besides updatinng the US Colonialism columns, I've extended acknowledgement in the table of continued Spanish sovereignty following the Philippine Declaration of Independence. Please discuss any objections to or further changes proposed in this table row. I hope to update this row of the table in the article in a few days.
Updates to this version since originally posted here
Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Done -- Here, I've updated the Polities row in the table to match the row shown above. I think further changes are probably needed in this and other table rows, but discussion in this talk page section is not needed for that. , Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:44, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
In this series of edits, I have WP:BOLDly edited the Sovereign Entity and Governing Body table rows, attempting to reconcile or clarify apparent conflicts. I also inserted a row introduced as NOTE indicating that table content below that point reflects the viewpoint of the post-independence Philippine government regarding pre-independence history. This is an attempt to address the fact that, below that point, information re U.S. administration during the period of conflict between the U.S. and Filipino revolutionaries is pretty much absent. I am not at all sure that the table reflects even this correctly -- for example, in the Constitutional Document row cell of the August 14, 1898 – July 1, 1902 column. Please discuss here and/or improve on my changes. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:38, 8 April 2022 (UTC)