This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
I see him as no more important than Galadriel:
I see no real reason to include him, but exclude her, and in the interests of really keeping this list exclusive to characters with significant impact, I believe Elrond should be removed.
Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpbjoel ( talk • contribs) 15:30, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
The article says "The work also had an influence upon such science fiction authors as Frank Herbert and Arthur C. Clarke[74] and filmmakers such as George Lucas."
But all the reference says is; "Do you remember [...] The Lord of the Rings? [...] Well, Io is Mordor [...] There's a passage about "rivers of molten rock that wound their way ... until they cooled and lay like dragon-shapes vomited from the tortured earth." That's a perfect description: how did Tolkien know, a quarter of a century before anyone saw a picture of Io? Talk about Nature imitating Art." (Arthur C. Clarke, 2010: Odyssey Two, Chapter 16 'Private Line')
If this is all there is, how exactly can this be called an influence? 84.210.10.52 ( talk) 21:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
The opening section says Tolkien described the work as a Mythopoeia, that is not in the citation. I'm not sure if this is just a case of the reference being at the wrong place? GimliDotNet ( Speak to me, Stuff I've done) 07:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't care what we call him, but we need to call him more than just a "man" from Gondor. It says Aragorn is a Ranger, it says the elf is a prince, and the dwarf a warrior. And then for Boromir it just says "man", like he's some random dude from Gondor who happened to be there. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 23:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I added in a few sentences from a 2013 article by Emily Landau in The Walrus (magazine), a notable magazine in my country, Canada. She was reviewing the LOTR as part of a general article on the fantasy genre. Editor GimliDotNet deleted the content shortly after I posting it, calling the review non-notable. Maybe he/she is not familiar with this magazine, but it is a well-respected publication in Canada. Here is the content I added:
References
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. No prejudice to propose renaming the disambiguation page. -- George Ho ( talk) 18:25, 9 September 2013 (UTC) George Ho ( talk) 18:25, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
– The guideline WP:THE would allow "The" for published works, like this, especially because the current title is the official name. However, the policy WP:AT would overcome the guideline in some cases. Per WP:CRITERIA, anybody can recognize the title without "The", and both the proposed and the current title are indistinguishable. Per WP:COMMONNAMES, a page name may be commonly recognizable and may not have to be official. Also, many sources include "The", and many other sources omit "The". If that's the case, this would affect other "The Lord of the Rings" pages that begin with "The". Nevertheless, this case may not affect other pages that do not begin with "The", unless I'm wrong... George Ho ( talk) 00:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
H. G. Wells' The Invisible Man has as its basis a retelling of the tale of the Ring of Gyges.[3]
The Ring of Gyges is referenced by Alexandre Dumas in his book The Count of Monte Cristo.[citation needed]
J. R. R. Tolkien's book The Lord of the Rings describes a ring with some similarities to Plato's metaphor: it is found in a cave and makes its bearer invisible. Unlike Plato's ring, however, Tolkien's exerts an active malevolent force that necessarily destroys the morality of the wearer.[4]
One story arc in the comic book series The Spectre features a giant Ring of Gyges.[5]
The One Ring from J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings grants invisibility to its wearer but corrupts its owner. Although there is speculation[6] that Tolkien was influenced by Plato's story, a search on "Gyges" and "Plato" in his letters and biography provides no evidence that such an influence actually existed." But there are similarities and therefore may still have had an influence on Tolkien.
124.186.100.125 (
talk)
13:17, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello. Everyone always wonders why the Eagles couldn't have just carried the ring to Mount Doom. Shouldn't the article have a section that explains this? Because I, for one, put the book down and never touched it again once I discovered this plot hole. Perhaps we could lie in the article and say "Hey, Gandalf tried that in the Unfinished Tales and the flying Cat Men of Sauron killed most of the eagles, so now they won't go near the damned mountain". Or maybe we can say that Manwe forbad the eagles (his pets) from flying the Ringbearer all the way to Mount Doom, because it was up to the people of Middle-earth (and not the eagles) to stem the tide of evil. Anyways, thanks for reading this. 98.174.171.43 ( talk) 08:43, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
If they would have flown there, they would have attracted attention... -- Billybob2002 ( talk) 20:51, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
First: The 'plot summary' is fronted by an abstract describing the events that happened prior to the start of the novel. While the abstract is well written and comprehensive, it might better serve as a sub-subsection of "Fellowship" describing the discussion and explication occurring during the 'Council of Elrond'. Tales within the tale, so to speak. If it was strictly up to me, I'd move it, more or less wholesale, to within the subsection. I'm curious, however, to hear what others might think.
Secondly: The list of major characters is missing Tom Bombadil. While he only appears in 'Fellowship', his role is pivotal and certainly no less important or impactful than that of Galadrial or Celeborn. TreebeardTheEnt ( talk) 21:55, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
In other words: if you think Bombadil should be treated as a major character, find a reliable source that says that and use that as a reference. WP is not about what you think or what I think; it's about what is verifiable from reliable sources. (Obviously what we think will guide what we want to include, but when challenged, you need to provide a source.) In the case of the Ring, I read the incident quite differently than you do; but *our* opinions cannot settle this. Tolkien's letters suggest that Tom's power, whatever it is, would not stand up against Sauron's. -- Elphion ( talk) 18:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I mentioned the scope of Tom's power simply to answer your perception that he has power over the Ring and that this contributes to his being a major character. Your counter-argument could be made with equal force about Eru and the Valar, who -- far more than Bombadil -- frequently serve as sources of inspiration, but are hardly "major characters". At the critical moment in Rivendell when Frodo accepts the Quest, there is no indication whatsoever that Frodo is influenced -- let alone persuaded -- by his experience of Bombadil. Indeed, Bombadil hardly appears after the Council of Elrond, in contrast, say, to Galadriel, who is invoked on many a dark occasion in the sequel. It is not the example of being unaffected by the Ring that inspires Frodo and Sam, but the example of rejecting it.
But as I indicated above, this really is irrelevant. You need to read WP:OR and particularly WP:SYNTH.
-- Elphion ( talk) 14:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
In the list of main characters it says that Bilbo is Frodo's cousin, not his uncle, which, I believe, is the correct title. Please change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.150.224.241 ( talk) 17:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I was told by my History teacher that Tolkien took many ideas for the Lord of the Rings and Middle-Earth from Norse mythology. Use this section to discuss this — Preceding unsigned comment added by LemSpike ( talk • contribs) 07:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
@ GimliDotNet: (et. al.) How about the following?
The story begins in the Shire on Bilbo Baggins' birthday, where the Hobbit Frodo Baggins inherits the ring from his cousin Bilbo.
The birthday party IS important considering the events that happen at the party, so I feel it is worth a mention. This edit keeps it tight and fixes some odd grammar and syntax (ie "Ring" should not be capitalized without the "One" in front of it and so on). HullIntegrity ( talk) 22:40, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
From the lede: "The Lord of the Rings is the second best-selling novel ever written, with over 150 million copies sold." - However, the article linked lists LotR as number one, the only book selling 150 million copies.- 217.248.32.212 ( talk) 12:42, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
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In the list of characters, the sentence "He is a Maia, an angelic being sent by the god-like Valar to fight Sauron." is used to describe Gandalf. Is this sentence necessary? In the Lord of the Rings Gandalf - and the narrarator keep his true identity secret. I thought this was strange, but wanted more opinions and didn't feel confident to edit such an important article. -- Mornarben ( talk) 20:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
It was afterwards said that [the Istari] came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; ...
I did a word search on the entire entry for "Shadowfax" and nothing came up. In my opinion, "Shadowfax" should be mentioned in an encyclopediac article about LoTR. 199.168.151.168 ( talk) 19:45, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
Istari, Wizard in the tongue of Men were sent by the lords of the west. Lucifer & Viktor ( talk) 12:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Sauron is a Maiar. Gandalf (Mithrandir) is a one of the first two Istaris who came, along with Curunir (Saruman). Lucifer & Viktor ( talk) 12:55, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't know when they took over, but they are definitely the current publisher of the Tolkien series.
See http://www.tolkien.co.uk/index.html AND https://www.harpercollins.com/cr-104949/j-r-r-tolkien Peter K Burian ( talk) 00:29, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Came to wikipedia looking for information on the internet meme "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard", but that title redirects to here even though the meme isn't mentioned at all in the article. Surely that's not right? Better to come up with a not found/closest match rather than direct to another article with no relevant info? (No idea how to do anything about that, since I'm just a really casual and occasional user) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.53.1.161 ( talk) 15:15, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
The discussion should be taking place here, not back and forth on our personal talk pages.
Reposted from your talk page,
Bill Stradling: Hello Bill,
Pages 101 and 102 of the self-published Maloney source list the similarities to which you refer in the article and on the post on my talk page. The claims on these pages (101-102) have no footnotes leading to other sources, so we have to take the author's word for it, but the source does not appear reliable (self-published, written by a non-scholar). Even if there were footnotes on those pages, the article should cite those (now hypothetical) reliable sources rather than Maloney, who is not RS.--MattMauler (talk) 13:37, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
In a talkpage comment and in one of your edit summaries, you question the definition that I (and others) were using for "reliable sources": JRR Tolkien passed away in 1973. Definition of reliable source in this context required before deleting this page edit - thanks.
and What would be your definition of a reliable source in the context of explaining the meaning behind the book title of the 'Lord of the Rings'? As I pointed out earlier, Tolkien would be the only person who could truly answer this puzzle.
. The definition of "reliable source" that is used on Wikipedia, in all articles, can be found in the
Manual of Style. For this specific situation, see
WP:RSSELF and
WP:UNRELIABLE. This is what I and other editors are using when we say that self-published sources are generally unreliable. It's not just our opinion, it's a Wikipedia policy determined by a long consensus.--
MattMauler (
talk)
15:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
W.H. Auden "famously reviewed the final volume in 1956" and the link points to the New York Times of 26 Jan 1956, "At the End of the Quest, Victory: BOOK REVIEW, "THE RETURN OF THE KING"". That's a dead link now, perhaps because the Times has moved its archives to the subscriber-only "Times Machine": TimesMachine: "At the End of the Quest, Victory". What's the WP policy on paywall links? By the way, Auden also reviewed The Fellowship of the Ring: The Hero Is A Hobbit SUNDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1954, P. 37, but I did not find an Auden review of The Two Towers. Whbjr ( talk) 21:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Is LOTR a trilogy? This has been briefly discussed here several times (just search the archives for "trilogy"), and the consensus is "No, because Tolkien didn't think of it as a trilogy". See also this essay from the Tolkien Society, and this blog post. Okay, I can accept that (for the moment). But as a reader who was previously unaware of this, I found the current wording of the article a bit WP:ASTONISHing. I suspect most people familiar with LOTR think of it as a trilogy, rather than a single novel. And referring to LOTR as a trilogy of books is is very common in reliable sources - just try a google search for a phrase like "adaptation of The Lord of the Rings trilogy", or "author of The Lord of the Rings trilogy". You'll find results from NPR, The New York Times, USA Today, the Telegraph, BBC, The Guardian, etc.
So I think we should mention this. In
earlier versions of the article, the first paragraph had a sentence beginning Although generally known to readers as a trilogy, Tolkien initially intended it as one volume of...
. The "Publication" section
also elaborated on this:
Because the three-volume binding was so widely distributed, the work is often referred to as the Lord of the Rings " trilogy". In a letter to the poet W. H. Auden (who famously reviewed the final volume in 1956 [1]), Tolkien himself made use of the term "trilogy" for the work [2] though he did at other times consider this incorrect, as it was written and conceived as a single book. [3] It is also often called a novel; however, Tolkien also objected to this term as he viewed it as a romance. [4]
(See also this talk discussion which touched on Tolkien's use of "romance", and the Auden letter.)
Anyways, I'm going to WP:BOLDly restore some form of the text quoted above into the article, because I think it's beneficial to the reader (reducing WP:ASTONISHMENT), and also just relevant, encyclopedic information. Colin M ( talk) 20:27, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
References
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Ambush at Ithilien. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm ( talk) 23:13, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
I propose that War of the Ring be merged here. The "War of the Ring" is merely a plot summary of parts of the novel, told in an in-universe way, with no references.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 02:37, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
The lists of protagonists and antagonists in the article duplicates (less well) the excellent summary of the plot just above it; it also WP:OVERLINKs all the names which are much better explained in context and linked in the summary. I hope no-one will be offended if I say that the article will be stronger without the lists; we could remove all the overlinks but that would leave the lists in an even worse state than they're now in, which is uncited and redundant: so, best gone. The short preceding paragraph will fit well in the discussion further down. I'll boldly go, but happy to discuss. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 19:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Battle of Dale. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. BenKuykendall ( talk) 22:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and The Return of the King have nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Fellowship of the Ring WanderingWanda ( talk) 20:46, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Battle of the Peak. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm ( talk) 17:44, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Template talk:Middle-earth#Legendarium template to cover legendarium, LOTR template to cover LOTR on whether we should remove the overlap between these two templates. Editors are invited to contribute. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 21:04, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
I see him as no more important than Galadriel:
I see no real reason to include him, but exclude her, and in the interests of really keeping this list exclusive to characters with significant impact, I believe Elrond should be removed.
Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpbjoel ( talk • contribs) 15:30, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
The article says "The work also had an influence upon such science fiction authors as Frank Herbert and Arthur C. Clarke[74] and filmmakers such as George Lucas."
But all the reference says is; "Do you remember [...] The Lord of the Rings? [...] Well, Io is Mordor [...] There's a passage about "rivers of molten rock that wound their way ... until they cooled and lay like dragon-shapes vomited from the tortured earth." That's a perfect description: how did Tolkien know, a quarter of a century before anyone saw a picture of Io? Talk about Nature imitating Art." (Arthur C. Clarke, 2010: Odyssey Two, Chapter 16 'Private Line')
If this is all there is, how exactly can this be called an influence? 84.210.10.52 ( talk) 21:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
The opening section says Tolkien described the work as a Mythopoeia, that is not in the citation. I'm not sure if this is just a case of the reference being at the wrong place? GimliDotNet ( Speak to me, Stuff I've done) 07:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't care what we call him, but we need to call him more than just a "man" from Gondor. It says Aragorn is a Ranger, it says the elf is a prince, and the dwarf a warrior. And then for Boromir it just says "man", like he's some random dude from Gondor who happened to be there. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 23:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I added in a few sentences from a 2013 article by Emily Landau in The Walrus (magazine), a notable magazine in my country, Canada. She was reviewing the LOTR as part of a general article on the fantasy genre. Editor GimliDotNet deleted the content shortly after I posting it, calling the review non-notable. Maybe he/she is not familiar with this magazine, but it is a well-respected publication in Canada. Here is the content I added:
References
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. No prejudice to propose renaming the disambiguation page. -- George Ho ( talk) 18:25, 9 September 2013 (UTC) George Ho ( talk) 18:25, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
– The guideline WP:THE would allow "The" for published works, like this, especially because the current title is the official name. However, the policy WP:AT would overcome the guideline in some cases. Per WP:CRITERIA, anybody can recognize the title without "The", and both the proposed and the current title are indistinguishable. Per WP:COMMONNAMES, a page name may be commonly recognizable and may not have to be official. Also, many sources include "The", and many other sources omit "The". If that's the case, this would affect other "The Lord of the Rings" pages that begin with "The". Nevertheless, this case may not affect other pages that do not begin with "The", unless I'm wrong... George Ho ( talk) 00:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
H. G. Wells' The Invisible Man has as its basis a retelling of the tale of the Ring of Gyges.[3]
The Ring of Gyges is referenced by Alexandre Dumas in his book The Count of Monte Cristo.[citation needed]
J. R. R. Tolkien's book The Lord of the Rings describes a ring with some similarities to Plato's metaphor: it is found in a cave and makes its bearer invisible. Unlike Plato's ring, however, Tolkien's exerts an active malevolent force that necessarily destroys the morality of the wearer.[4]
One story arc in the comic book series The Spectre features a giant Ring of Gyges.[5]
The One Ring from J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings grants invisibility to its wearer but corrupts its owner. Although there is speculation[6] that Tolkien was influenced by Plato's story, a search on "Gyges" and "Plato" in his letters and biography provides no evidence that such an influence actually existed." But there are similarities and therefore may still have had an influence on Tolkien.
124.186.100.125 (
talk)
13:17, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello. Everyone always wonders why the Eagles couldn't have just carried the ring to Mount Doom. Shouldn't the article have a section that explains this? Because I, for one, put the book down and never touched it again once I discovered this plot hole. Perhaps we could lie in the article and say "Hey, Gandalf tried that in the Unfinished Tales and the flying Cat Men of Sauron killed most of the eagles, so now they won't go near the damned mountain". Or maybe we can say that Manwe forbad the eagles (his pets) from flying the Ringbearer all the way to Mount Doom, because it was up to the people of Middle-earth (and not the eagles) to stem the tide of evil. Anyways, thanks for reading this. 98.174.171.43 ( talk) 08:43, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
If they would have flown there, they would have attracted attention... -- Billybob2002 ( talk) 20:51, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
First: The 'plot summary' is fronted by an abstract describing the events that happened prior to the start of the novel. While the abstract is well written and comprehensive, it might better serve as a sub-subsection of "Fellowship" describing the discussion and explication occurring during the 'Council of Elrond'. Tales within the tale, so to speak. If it was strictly up to me, I'd move it, more or less wholesale, to within the subsection. I'm curious, however, to hear what others might think.
Secondly: The list of major characters is missing Tom Bombadil. While he only appears in 'Fellowship', his role is pivotal and certainly no less important or impactful than that of Galadrial or Celeborn. TreebeardTheEnt ( talk) 21:55, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
In other words: if you think Bombadil should be treated as a major character, find a reliable source that says that and use that as a reference. WP is not about what you think or what I think; it's about what is verifiable from reliable sources. (Obviously what we think will guide what we want to include, but when challenged, you need to provide a source.) In the case of the Ring, I read the incident quite differently than you do; but *our* opinions cannot settle this. Tolkien's letters suggest that Tom's power, whatever it is, would not stand up against Sauron's. -- Elphion ( talk) 18:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I mentioned the scope of Tom's power simply to answer your perception that he has power over the Ring and that this contributes to his being a major character. Your counter-argument could be made with equal force about Eru and the Valar, who -- far more than Bombadil -- frequently serve as sources of inspiration, but are hardly "major characters". At the critical moment in Rivendell when Frodo accepts the Quest, there is no indication whatsoever that Frodo is influenced -- let alone persuaded -- by his experience of Bombadil. Indeed, Bombadil hardly appears after the Council of Elrond, in contrast, say, to Galadriel, who is invoked on many a dark occasion in the sequel. It is not the example of being unaffected by the Ring that inspires Frodo and Sam, but the example of rejecting it.
But as I indicated above, this really is irrelevant. You need to read WP:OR and particularly WP:SYNTH.
-- Elphion ( talk) 14:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
In the list of main characters it says that Bilbo is Frodo's cousin, not his uncle, which, I believe, is the correct title. Please change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.150.224.241 ( talk) 17:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I was told by my History teacher that Tolkien took many ideas for the Lord of the Rings and Middle-Earth from Norse mythology. Use this section to discuss this — Preceding unsigned comment added by LemSpike ( talk • contribs) 07:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
@ GimliDotNet: (et. al.) How about the following?
The story begins in the Shire on Bilbo Baggins' birthday, where the Hobbit Frodo Baggins inherits the ring from his cousin Bilbo.
The birthday party IS important considering the events that happen at the party, so I feel it is worth a mention. This edit keeps it tight and fixes some odd grammar and syntax (ie "Ring" should not be capitalized without the "One" in front of it and so on). HullIntegrity ( talk) 22:40, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
From the lede: "The Lord of the Rings is the second best-selling novel ever written, with over 150 million copies sold." - However, the article linked lists LotR as number one, the only book selling 150 million copies.- 217.248.32.212 ( talk) 12:42, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
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In the list of characters, the sentence "He is a Maia, an angelic being sent by the god-like Valar to fight Sauron." is used to describe Gandalf. Is this sentence necessary? In the Lord of the Rings Gandalf - and the narrarator keep his true identity secret. I thought this was strange, but wanted more opinions and didn't feel confident to edit such an important article. -- Mornarben ( talk) 20:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
It was afterwards said that [the Istari] came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; ...
I did a word search on the entire entry for "Shadowfax" and nothing came up. In my opinion, "Shadowfax" should be mentioned in an encyclopediac article about LoTR. 199.168.151.168 ( talk) 19:45, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
Istari, Wizard in the tongue of Men were sent by the lords of the west. Lucifer & Viktor ( talk) 12:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Sauron is a Maiar. Gandalf (Mithrandir) is a one of the first two Istaris who came, along with Curunir (Saruman). Lucifer & Viktor ( talk) 12:55, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't know when they took over, but they are definitely the current publisher of the Tolkien series.
See http://www.tolkien.co.uk/index.html AND https://www.harpercollins.com/cr-104949/j-r-r-tolkien Peter K Burian ( talk) 00:29, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Came to wikipedia looking for information on the internet meme "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard", but that title redirects to here even though the meme isn't mentioned at all in the article. Surely that's not right? Better to come up with a not found/closest match rather than direct to another article with no relevant info? (No idea how to do anything about that, since I'm just a really casual and occasional user) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.53.1.161 ( talk) 15:15, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
The discussion should be taking place here, not back and forth on our personal talk pages.
Reposted from your talk page,
Bill Stradling: Hello Bill,
Pages 101 and 102 of the self-published Maloney source list the similarities to which you refer in the article and on the post on my talk page. The claims on these pages (101-102) have no footnotes leading to other sources, so we have to take the author's word for it, but the source does not appear reliable (self-published, written by a non-scholar). Even if there were footnotes on those pages, the article should cite those (now hypothetical) reliable sources rather than Maloney, who is not RS.--MattMauler (talk) 13:37, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
In a talkpage comment and in one of your edit summaries, you question the definition that I (and others) were using for "reliable sources": JRR Tolkien passed away in 1973. Definition of reliable source in this context required before deleting this page edit - thanks.
and What would be your definition of a reliable source in the context of explaining the meaning behind the book title of the 'Lord of the Rings'? As I pointed out earlier, Tolkien would be the only person who could truly answer this puzzle.
. The definition of "reliable source" that is used on Wikipedia, in all articles, can be found in the
Manual of Style. For this specific situation, see
WP:RSSELF and
WP:UNRELIABLE. This is what I and other editors are using when we say that self-published sources are generally unreliable. It's not just our opinion, it's a Wikipedia policy determined by a long consensus.--
MattMauler (
talk)
15:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
W.H. Auden "famously reviewed the final volume in 1956" and the link points to the New York Times of 26 Jan 1956, "At the End of the Quest, Victory: BOOK REVIEW, "THE RETURN OF THE KING"". That's a dead link now, perhaps because the Times has moved its archives to the subscriber-only "Times Machine": TimesMachine: "At the End of the Quest, Victory". What's the WP policy on paywall links? By the way, Auden also reviewed The Fellowship of the Ring: The Hero Is A Hobbit SUNDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1954, P. 37, but I did not find an Auden review of The Two Towers. Whbjr ( talk) 21:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Is LOTR a trilogy? This has been briefly discussed here several times (just search the archives for "trilogy"), and the consensus is "No, because Tolkien didn't think of it as a trilogy". See also this essay from the Tolkien Society, and this blog post. Okay, I can accept that (for the moment). But as a reader who was previously unaware of this, I found the current wording of the article a bit WP:ASTONISHing. I suspect most people familiar with LOTR think of it as a trilogy, rather than a single novel. And referring to LOTR as a trilogy of books is is very common in reliable sources - just try a google search for a phrase like "adaptation of The Lord of the Rings trilogy", or "author of The Lord of the Rings trilogy". You'll find results from NPR, The New York Times, USA Today, the Telegraph, BBC, The Guardian, etc.
So I think we should mention this. In
earlier versions of the article, the first paragraph had a sentence beginning Although generally known to readers as a trilogy, Tolkien initially intended it as one volume of...
. The "Publication" section
also elaborated on this:
Because the three-volume binding was so widely distributed, the work is often referred to as the Lord of the Rings " trilogy". In a letter to the poet W. H. Auden (who famously reviewed the final volume in 1956 [1]), Tolkien himself made use of the term "trilogy" for the work [2] though he did at other times consider this incorrect, as it was written and conceived as a single book. [3] It is also often called a novel; however, Tolkien also objected to this term as he viewed it as a romance. [4]
(See also this talk discussion which touched on Tolkien's use of "romance", and the Auden letter.)
Anyways, I'm going to WP:BOLDly restore some form of the text quoted above into the article, because I think it's beneficial to the reader (reducing WP:ASTONISHMENT), and also just relevant, encyclopedic information. Colin M ( talk) 20:27, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
References
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Ambush at Ithilien. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm ( talk) 23:13, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
I propose that War of the Ring be merged here. The "War of the Ring" is merely a plot summary of parts of the novel, told in an in-universe way, with no references.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 02:37, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
The lists of protagonists and antagonists in the article duplicates (less well) the excellent summary of the plot just above it; it also WP:OVERLINKs all the names which are much better explained in context and linked in the summary. I hope no-one will be offended if I say that the article will be stronger without the lists; we could remove all the overlinks but that would leave the lists in an even worse state than they're now in, which is uncited and redundant: so, best gone. The short preceding paragraph will fit well in the discussion further down. I'll boldly go, but happy to discuss. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 19:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Battle of Dale. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. BenKuykendall ( talk) 22:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and The Return of the King have nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Fellowship of the Ring WanderingWanda ( talk) 20:46, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Battle of the Peak. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm ( talk) 17:44, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Template talk:Middle-earth#Legendarium template to cover legendarium, LOTR template to cover LOTR on whether we should remove the overlap between these two templates. Editors are invited to contribute. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 21:04, 18 March 2020 (UTC)