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Just wondering if you guys can use this: www.msnbc.com/news/916555.asp I'm not familiar enough with The China Study article on Wikipedia, just working on a semi-/remotely-related article.
I am currently finishing up this book. As I indicated in my addition, I feel the title is a trifle misleading for the reason cited. Despite the title, the book reviews a substantial volume of past studies. If anything, these take up the bulk of the discussion. The whole idea of the book, as is clear from the book, is its placement within the context of the past scientific literature. This much is immediately clear, I think, to anyone who has read the book.
The second issue is controversy. The authors are aware that their findings will be controversial, and discussion of the hows and whys of this controversy occupy a substantial portion of the book. Saying that one's opponent in a controversy is motivated by a desire to protect his interests is, of course, often used as a kind of ad hominem ploy. The trouble is, what if that happens to be the case? It is reasonable to say that it often is true in the world of public policy and information which can affect the actual financial interests of particular interest groups. Were that not so, there would be no lobbyists in Washington, including those which openly promote the interests of various industries and professions.
It is a key point of the authors that the public needs to be aware of this controversy and the reasons for it. Since that point occupies a major part of the book, it is, I believe, essential to a fair description of the nature of this book.
-- Gunnermanz 15:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is too one-sided. It mentions that the book is controversial, but doesn't offer any rebuttals, or link to any anti-China Story resources. Dilvie 20:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the most POV article on wikipedia I've ever seen. Reading the discussion page is worse as the maintainer earnestly believes it's totally fine and that there is nobody disputing the claims made in the book when a quick google search would prove otherwise. 99.40.226.179 ( talk) 19:51, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
This article is a joke, it has no NPOV! If you look at the articles history and this talk, anything that challenges the science in the book or makes the publisher look 'bad' is always censored and removed - Kelly2357 10:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it's the job of a book article to refute that book and I don't think it's one-sided to not put criticisms in this article. You should definitely start a "Criticisms of the China Study" article and even link to it from this one, but the idea that every article about an objective thing must take in both sides of the argument seems silly to me. Atomly 12:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it's reasonable (more so necessary) to criticize (or link to criticism) a book that claims to be controversial. The article is not developed enough to have an alternate page dedicated to criticisms. I added a link to a "Thumbs Down Book Review." The article is very reasonable about it's criticism. Wikipedia is a place where people start when looking for information. It should provide that information-- on both sides.
Also, I think the title of the article should be changed to "The China Study: Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss, and Long-Term Health," since the article is about the book, not the China Study itself. As the article develops, the page titled "The China Study" could be used for the study itself.
--Nate 08:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I actually came to Wikipedia specifically to find criticisms of this book, but I am satisfied to have them in links, not in the article itself.
As to the critical review that is linked, I want to note that, according to the bio at the end of his review, Chris Masterjohn, that review's author, does not appear to yet have a degree in medicine and is "the creator and maintainer of Cholesterol-And-Health.Com, a website dedicated to extolling the virtues of cholesterol and cholesterol-rich foods." Although I realize that someone with such a background could have legitimate criticisms, I find some of his to be overbroad.
"Chris Masterjohn, that review's author, does not appear to yet have a degree in medicine"
vegan-cultist Campbell is also not an MD
For example, he complains that Campbell criticizes protein but that he fails to mention "the cannibalism or the swollen bellies of children that accompanies the protein-starved diet of the New Guinea Highlanders." First, calorie-starved might be a better term for those children. I don't think Campbell would argue that children should avoid animal protein if they cannot get sufficient calories any other way. Second and more fundamentally, Campbell does not state that protein consumption should be eliminated as Masterjohn seems to imply, just that consumption of animal-protein should be reduced or eliminated. Vegetable protein, he argues, is more than an adequate substitute. Lucylawful 20:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
i think the terminology depends on whether these children have a shortage of ALL food, or just a shortage of protein while still getting enough calories overall. that last one is a common occurrence among children in developing countries who are fed almost exclusively on rice and pasta (which is much cheaper then vegetables or animal-derived products) Selena1981 ( talk) 22:37, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
There was a recent edit about this, so I'll ask the quesiton here. Doesn't the book claim a relationship between early exposure to casein and the development of type 1 (as opposed to type 2) diabetes? Some sort of autoimmune reaction, IIRC. I haven't looked at it in a while so I'm not sure. Frankg 20:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I put the quotefarm tag because more than half the article consists of quotes. It needs some major pruning.-- Boffob 14:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
It was noted more than a year ago that this article is "one sided". Nothing has changed. In fact it appears to be worse with some criticism having been removed. Since the article cites only one source--the book itself--it cannot be said to " fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source." Unless, of course, no one has published anything critical of the author's findings, which is hard to believe but if that is the case then it calls into question the notability of the book. Incidentally, many of the section headings and paragraphs begin with "The authors ... ", which is just poor writing. -- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 08:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
(1) It has not been demonstrated that notable criticism of the book exists.
(2) The article is written with attribution of statements to the authors. Although the flow of the article suffers and I am considering how to improve the flow, this was done so that the article has NO POV at all.
I'm removing both of the tags.
Michael H 34 ( talk) 17:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
{{
RFCmedia}}
Is the article properly flagged for citing only one source and not fairly representing all significant viewpoints?
For those who wish to make comments, please read the following:
The tags
Criticism
Yes, I removed a section of the article that was NOT about the book at all. The section I removed was completely Original Research. Again, if the title of the article were nutrition, then including notable and reliable POV about nutrition would be appropriate, but the section removed was not notable and not reliable. Thus, the section removed was off topic, not notable and not reliable, and therefore I boldly removed it. The section removed was misrepresented on this discussion page as criticism of the book.
Criticism of the book is appropriate if it is notable and reliable. Users are free to add appropriate criticism. Criticism is NOT necessary if none exists. Do all articles without criticism merit a POV tag? I strongly suggest NO.
The Main Point
This article is NOT a forum for discussing nutrition. The title of the article is The China Study.
I am expanding this noteworthy article as a gift of my time and energy to Wikipedia. Michael H 34 ( talk) 15:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Thank you all for your comments.
I disagree with Boffob, who suggested that it would be preferable for the article to provide less information in order to avoid the presentation of a POV. "The authors claim..." IS enough to make the article neutral. The information provided by the article CAN include a POV as long as it is attributed and thus not the POV of the article. I agree that the use of Ibid would be preferable, but this would be problematic if another user wished to add an alternate citation just prior to the Ibid footnote.
The authors' viewpoints are presented. There is nothing wrong with this. The article is neutral and the authors' viewpoints are attributed to the authors.
I ask that the tags be removed while (other) editors add notable and reliable criticism of the book if they wish, and/or nominate the article for deletion. Michael H 34 ( talk) 05:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
To everyone who thinks the POV tag should go: Does the article " fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source"? -- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 08:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This article (about a book) has no POV, so how can a POV tag (about nutrition) be appropriate? Michael H 34 ( talk) 15:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
I don't think an article can be claimed to be NPOV when the editors watching the article repeatedly remove information critical of the book. The article is about the book, not a summary of the book; it should mostly be referenced to reviews, positive and negative, and not to the book itself. Warren Dew ( talk) 19:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I found this essay ( http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html) and it seems like a good candidate for starting criticism section because it addresses the book directly. What do y'all think? I wrote this short paragraph based on the essay. -- Hraefen Talk 09:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious to see if Michael H 34 will accept Masterjohn's stuff on The China Study as a reliable source. I'm not sure I would. He has published peer-reviewed articles on nutrition and other articles in Wise Traditions. But everything he has written on TCS appears to self-published on his own web site.
In any case, some more fundamental criticisms by Masterjohn occur in this paragraph (emphasis added):
Only 39 of 350 pages are actually devoted to the China Study. The bold statement on page 132 that “eating foods that contain any cholesterol above 0 mg is unhealthy,”5 is drawn from a broad—and highly selective—pool of research. Yet chapter after chapter reveals a heavy bias and selectivity with which Campbell conducted, interpreted, and presents his research.
-- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 08:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)-- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 08:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
It is appropriate to include notable and reliable criticism of the book. The criticism should be attributed to the critic, and information about the critic should also be included.
For example, if Masterjohn's criticism is considered notable and reliable (I should not be the one to make this decision), then Masterjohn's qualifications to be a critic and information about the publisher of the criticism should be included along with the criticism. Michael H 34 ( talk) 15:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
This study does need some criticism, but the Masterjohn webpage is not it; none of this information has been published in peer-reviewed journals, and Masterjohn doesn't appear to have any credentials related to nutrition or medicine. I'm going to remove the reference to Masterjohn. Interested in hearing others' thoughts. Rocko1124 ( talk) 17:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I came here specifically looking for information on the China Study itself and links to articles which discuss arguments supporting and refuting the claims made in the book. There seems to be some dissension over whether or not such links should exist since this page merely discusses the book and therefore is primarily quotes and information directly from the book. I think there needs to be a separate page discussing the study itself, with criticisms and articles from outside the book itself. Perhaps a "Discussion of the China Study" page in addition to this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.209.219 ( talk) 07:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
I have proposed nominated the article for deletion on
notability and
fringe theory grounds. --
DieWeisseRose (
talk)
21:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I disagree that this article should be deleted. For the following reasons:
-- Thomas.vandenbroeck ( talk) 07:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
the book is certainly notable enough to warrant its own wikipedia-article. unfortunately this article looks more like the work of a fanboy than an encyclopedic discussion of the merits of the book: what the book claims, why that is possibly controversial. and who agrees or disagrees with the claims in the book and why.
T. Colin Campbell is not listed as "Director of The China Project" on the China Project web site or on his Cornell bio. To my knowledge, his book and associated web site is the main source of the claim that he is the Director. -- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 00:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Dubious? I don't see on that link that he is the director. But maybe you should try following the 'publications' link and searching for 'campbell'. His name comes up in basically all of the publications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.106.224.20 ( talk) 00:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It is very relevant when it is the web site of the project he claims to be the Director of. -- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 05:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Way dubious. this article smacks of dubiousness. talks all about cholesterol and does not even mention good cholesterol vs. bad cholesterol (ie. LDL and HDL ) Secondly, a study of 220 million people or something like that, is just riiidiculous to begin with. (my emphasis on riiidiculous.) think about Nielson ratings. you get a statistically representative sample of the entire American TV watching population from only a few thousand people. This 'article' throws up more red flags than i care to mention. What about the Inuit (eskimos) who subsist on virtually nothing but whale blubber? are they dying left and right of all these diseases? i digress.
Since most are from the book itself (again, I don't think that's proper, unless there is question whether the author(s) made the statements in the book or not), can't the subsequent ones be reduced to "Campbell, page x" (or something to that effect)? It really is not good form to have the same book listed completely each time. ETA: consider the notes and references section of Foie gras for example. It's a much nicer way to approach repeated entries.-- Boffob ( talk) 03:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm advocating that a separate article for the author of this study should be restored. What is your view? Vapour ( talk) 01:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Somebody fix this sentence: "They also report that the counties in China with the highest rates of some cancers were more than 100 times greater than counties with the lowest rates of these cancers." Offhand, it seems to say that these specific cancers were more common in very large counties.. (?) Muad ( talk) 07:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I have no strong opinions on the book (in fact, I only heard of it today), but I went through the entire article waiting for criticism of the theory, so that I could make a preliminary judgement of whether it was worth pursuing. The lack of such criticism left me disappointed.
I note in particular that I have read a great number of articles (WP or otherwise) discussing similarly controversial theories, and considering that these almost invariably contain statements ranging from "the scientific community is split" to "main-stream science has been highly critical" (with corresponding lengthier explanations), I am highly surprised to not see any such comments here. If no such criticism exist then this would be truly remarkable---and well worth mentioning. (Then again, if no such criticism exist, I would almost certainly have heard of the study or its ideas repeatedly by now.)
I hasten to stress that controversy is not the same as faultiness: A theory can be highly controversial, even condemned, without necessarily being faulty. Note e.g. some early reactions to the theories of Darwin and Einstein, or the disputes around "The Bell Curve". 188.100.194.167 ( talk) 17:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I also just heard of the book today. Checked the article, noticed it was one-sided, started a Criticism section, then came to the talk page, to find that one has been expunged (?) Apologies if I should not have done so. Weavehole ( talk) 09:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC)weavehole
same here: i just read the article and i find it talks about some interesting points. certainly provides an interesting counter-argument against all the protein-based diets that are popular nowadays. but the lack of a decent criticism-section is very distracting. it makes the article much weaker overall: as if the person who wrote it was afraid the ideas in it couldn't stand a healthy dose of academical debate. Selena1981 ( talk) 00:00, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
All the links for "Plant-based diet" redirect to vegetarianism, however there is an actual Plant-based diet wiki page. I would like to update these links so that they redirect to the proper page. -- Thomas.vandenbroeck ( talk) 22:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Here is the full quote:
ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI1
GEORGE V. MANN, ANNE SPOERRY, MARGARETE GARY and DEBRA JARASHOW Mann, G. V. (Vanderbilt Univ. School of Medicine, Nashville, Tenn. 37203), A. Spoerry, M. Gray, and D. Jarashow. Atherosclerosis in the Masai. Am J Epidemiol 95: 26–37, 1972.–The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious.
atherosclerosis; autopsy; cholesterol; coronary artery disease; diet; exercise
1 From the Nutrition Division, vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee 37203 (G. V. Mann and D. Jarashow), and the Aftrican Medical and Research Foundation, Nairobi (A. Spoerry and M. Gray). Reprint requests to Dr. Mann. (From the Nutrition: The Great Diet Debate
The Minger material looks good to me, but I know nothing about this field. Our normal rules for source reliability require some sort of third-party validation of the quality, e.g. publication in a peer-reviewed journal, publication by a recognized authority, etc. What evidence do we have that the Minger material is reliable? -- Macrakis ( talk) 18:25, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
You will not find any third party validation of the quality of Minger's work. However, you may find the response to her critics by Campbell himself here : http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html -- Kasui84 ( talk) 13:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Minger "looks good" and "Campbell replied" is not enough to count as "scientific" or "peer-reviewed". This entire thing is a large scale scam going on right now. Denise Minger is allegedly a private fun blogger, without any scientific background whatsoever. Her "papers" have no scientific weight or credibility whatsoever. She is not credible in any way, she is a completely random private blogger, writing allegedly about her "raw foodie experiences". I so far removed of all the data concerning the "Minger" scam. 92.231.86.66 ( talk) 00:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Wow, biased much? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.99.170 ( talk) 18:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe Minger’s analysis would be sourced through Dr. Harriet Hall’s article at Science Based Medicine : http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6092
I believe Dr. Harriet Hall’s criticism that has been deleted should be re-instated as well, and criticism from her second article should be included as well. Dr. Hall is considered an expert at detecting bad science (see her wiki entry – she is a columnist and editor at various magazines.) While Science Based Medicine where the China Study critique was published is an online website, it does have an editorial board of medical and scientific experts; it is not a self-published blog. Dr. Hall has published extensively in professional magazines such as Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine, Skeptic, and Skeptical Inquirer (and even had her own column in Oprah Winfrey’s magazine.) She even has her own wiki entry.
The inclusion of Dr. Hall would also maybe warrant the inclusion of Denise Minger’s critique because Minger’s analysis was utilized heavily in Dr. Hall’s 2nd article critiquing The China Study (see link above). Minger’s analysis would be sourced through Dr. Hall’s article. Again, Dr. Hall is an expert at analyzing phony science, and she had no problems with the Minger analysis. As an expert and impartial arbiter, she found Minger’s analysis better than Campbell’s of the very same data, and that should be worthy of a mention. Cccpppmmm ( talk) 13:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC) If Dr Hall have no problem with minger's "analysis", then dr hall is not a reliable source. LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.153.61.69 ( talk) 00:26, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
When deciding how to rate Hall's and Minger's positions vis-a-vis China Study, I strongly suggest review what PlantPositive had to say about their positions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.121.182.122 ( talk) 20:20, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I suggest removing and/or replacing Michael Eades unscientific opinion since: 1) it has not been directed at any specific "obfuscation" and is instead a generalized statement, 2) it offer no scientific critique, 3) it may be more of a flamboyant opinionated hyperbole ploy for a link to his own blog post, 4) this space if used correctly seems better served with factual scientific based responses and criticism.
Current text that I'm suggesting to be removed or replaced: "One such critic, physician and author Michael Eades wrote, "The China Study is a masterpiece of obfuscation. It is obfuscatory in so many ways it could truly qualify as a work of obfuscatory genius. It would be difficult for a mere mortal to pen so much confusion, ambiguity, distortion and misunderstanding in what is basically a book-length argument for a personal opinion masquerading as hard science." [39]
I would urge anyone with a grasp of statistics to look at Denise Minger's analysis of the China Study data (
http://rawfoodsos.com/). DM even offers a basic stats refresher on her site! Regardless of her scientific background, little has been offered by way of criticism that detracts from her grasp of mathematics and the robustness of her work. Her work does not discredit TCC but it does call in to question how robust HIS statistical analyses of the data are. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
144.87.143.3 (
talk)
16:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Various mathematicians have analyzed china study data again and ALL have got the same conclusions than campbell for that study. Campbell's global conclusions about effects of animal foods (in certain amounts) are based in dozens of studies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.153.61.69 ( talk) 00:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I suggest honestly presenting the full context of the paragraph rather than the current out-of-context quotes. Here is the remainder of the book quote paragraph on page 107 (most of which is actually copied onto Michael Eades website
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/China-Study-page-107.jpg), which if read in full presents Dr Campbell's message very differently than Micheal Eades extracted piece.
"Absolute proof in science is nearly unattainable. Instead, a theory is proposed and debated until the weight of the evidence is so overwhelming that everyone commonly accepts that the theory is most likely true. In the case of diet and disease, the China Study adds a lot of weight to the evidence. Its experimental features (multiple diet, disease and lifestyle characteristics, and unusual range of dietary experience, a good means of measuring data quality) provide an unparalleled opportunity to expand our thinking about diet and disease in ways that previously were not available. It was a study that was like a flashlight that illuminated a path that I had never fully seen before."--
Jdmumma (
talk)
06:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Micheal Eades original quote: "On page 107 of The China Study, Dr. Campbell writes: 'At the end of the day, the strength and consistency of the majority of the evidence is enough to draw valid conclusions. Namely, whole plant-based foods are beneficial, and animal-based foods are not.' Then one inch below (literally) he writes the following: 'The China Study was an important milestone in my thinking. Standing alone, it does not prove that diet causes disease.' So, the China study produces valid conclusions as to causality, i.e., 'whole plant-based foods are beneficial, and animal-based foods are not.' Yet the China study 'does not prove that diet causes disease.' Say what?" [42] --
Jdmumma (
talk)
06:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
I suggest we delete ANY criticism of this work immediately. Wikipedia has a duty to protect this important book/study. Conflicting studies should be expunged. Articles or quotes from conflicting Doctors need to be deleted or at least make sure you remove 'Dr.' from their name as to discredit.
Excellent work everyone! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.173.223.44 ( talk) 19:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Are you serious? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.170.10.178 ( talk) 22:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
This is pretty sad. The people who've removed all the criticism references from this article should be ashamed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.58.120.11 ( talk) 01:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
If you have to be dishonest about suppressing dissent, then your material must not be factual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diafono ( talk • contribs) 06:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Could there be a suspicion of ad hominem, or even poisoning the well, in the removal of all mention of criticisms of this book made by Denise Minger, Chris Masterjohn, and Dr Harriet Hall? While it is natural for an encyclopedia to rely on authority, it can be very difficult to avoid accusations of relying on argument from authority. Rather than indulging in an editing war, I should like to plead for a balanced approach and for the restoration of carefully reasoned criticism based on sound scientific principles. Casual readers should be made aware that the book's content is not scientifically unchallenged. Anarchie76 ( talk) 13:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi SlimVirgin,
Re: <a href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:76.75.115.179&redirect=no">your comment</a>
You wrote:
Hi, your edits to this are what we call original research. You need to find a reliable source who says exactly what you are saying. You can't extrapolate from original data. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
In this case I disagree. I am not extrapolating from or processing the original data, I am _quoting_ the original data! In science, if Campbell's book says "+" and the raw China study data says "-" then quoting the discrepancy is all it takes to either invalidate a particular aspect of the book or at least force some revaluation.
Significant correlation factors for all relevant animal produce, except milk, (see page 215 of that paper [1]) have negative signs! Since the discrepancy is so evident then you do not need a peer review system to evaluate my assertion or my claims - I did not produce them! I am a messenger! No matter how many people I can get to peer-review and agree or disagree with my message, the "-" correlation factor will still remain "-" and it will still contradtict the book no matter what anybody would say! Minus is minus! The original raw China study data - already a peer-reviewed published work - basically speaks by itself - against the book! Why not let the numbers speak loud and clear on your wiki page! If my editing and formatting is not well constructed (I am learning) why not post the link and the number quotes by yourself! You have all the data linked! If you still require a formal peer-review acceptance, or feel there is a need to qualify it, you can publish it with a "disputed" qualifier added by you to my text, as you (wiki) often do in similar disputed situations.
Stan Bleszynski 76.75.115.179 ( talk) 02:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi SlimVirgin,
Re: "Your analysis could be correct, but we have no way of judging it. That's why we ask for reliable published secondary sources. See our policy on primary and secondary sources at WP:PSTS, which is part of our No original research policy, something all editors are asked to abide by. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)"
I am still a bit puzzled. It is of course correct as long as the China study data is correct! It is not my analysis, I only posted some raw correlations without amalyzing or processing anything! It is supported by the China study itself (you can check the reference link I posted, see page 215 therein). Besides, this is only a comment about a popular book entry, not a peer-reviewed publication! Stan Bleszynski 76.75.115.179 ( talk) 22:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
It seems pretty relevant to include the criticism that T. Colin Campbell, himself, has responded to publicly.
Why do you feel that these are not relevant to the article?
Last I checked, this was an encyclopedia. People come to the China Study page to learn about the China study. The fact that a blogger posted an in-depth analysis of the China Study and that it gained so much notoriety that Campbell himself responded to it seems like the kind of relevant information that should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.237.242 ( talk) 19:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Well if you read the section "Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves," you can clearly see reason to include the information about the China Study analysis and its relation to the China Study itself. It is not about refuting the claims of the China Study, it is about the criticisms and discussion that ensued among the author of the book and a blogger. How can you justify excluding these dialogues (or other dialogues) when the author himself addressed them? That, itself is an interesting and informational fact. It is a source about itself, it isn't a source for the article! You can't use the fact that it isn't peer reviewed to exclude it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.237.242 ( talk) 02:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
This is not about self-published sources. It's about it being a source about itself. The fact that the author had these discussions about the book the wikipedia article is on is extremely interesting, and completely relevant to a 'criticisms' section. The citation is only as a source about the source itself! The fact that these discussions have taken place. It is not about citing information presented in the article. To me, it doesn't seem like you are understanding the difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.237.242 ( talk) 03:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The blogger is not the source for wikipedia. The blogger is the source for information about the blogger and the dialogue! I feel like you're not understanding this point. I agree that as the entry was before, it is not acceptable, but if it were rewritten to be about the dialogue, then I would hope you would not remove that information. As it seems pertinent and completely in keeping with Wikipedia guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.170.10.178 ( talk) 22:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
No. I'm a PhD Student in Computer Science in Florida. I have no connection to any bloggers. I just have an interest in nutrition, and find the recent treatment of this article not very impartial. Reading the discussion for the article it's pretty clear that there is some kind of focused effort on the internet to rid the article of any mention of imperfections. I had read the article before and had come back to find the material I was looking for deleted and I was just trying to figure out why. Since that was part of the article that lead me to do further research. I just feel that others would benefit from knowing that the author has had back-and-forths with at least 3 people publicly about this book. One is a professor at Colorado State University. I learned more about "The China Study" from these back and forths than I did actually reading the China Study, ironically enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.170.56.157 ( talk) 17:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe Dr. Harriet Hall’s criticism should be included as well as the criticisim from her latest article on the subject http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6092. Dr. Hall is considered an expert at detecting bad science (see her wiki entry – she is a columnist and editor at various magazines.) While Science Based Medicine where the China Study critique was published is an online website, it does have an editorial board of medical and scientific experts, and Dr. Hall has published extensively in professional magazines such as Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine, Skeptic, and Skeptical Inquirer (and even had her own column in Oprah Winfrey’s magazine.) She even has her own wiki entry.
The inclusion of Dr. Hall would also maybe warrant the inclusion of Denise Minger’s critique because Minger’s analysis was utilized heavily in Dr. Hall’s 2nd article critiquing The China Study (see link above). Minger’s analysis would be sourced through Dr. Hall’s article. Again, Dr. Hall is an expert at analyzing phony science, and she had no problems with the Minger analysis. As an expert and impartial arbiter, she found Minger’s analysis better than Campbell’s of the very same data, and that should be worthy of a mention.
The China Study is just a diet book that has not itself undergone peer-review, and it might be an important criticism that the science is so shoddy that 23-year old English major can pick it apart. Dr. Hall, an expert in detecting phony science, definitely believes that The China Study is shoddy science. Cccpppmmm ( talk) 19:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Chris Masterjohn's criticism was published in Harriet Hall's first article, and Denise Minger's criticism was published in Hall's second article. Dr. Hall is a widely recognized authority on detecting quackery (she has her own wikipedia entry), so she would in fact be a reliable, independent, secondary source.
She wrote an article for Science Based Medicine where she discussed Masterjohn's critique of the China Study, and as an expert she concurred with his criticisms. She then wrote another article for Science Based Medicine where she discussed Minger's critique of the China Study, and as an expert she concurred with her criticisms.
As well as being a a writer and editor at various professional magazines concerning quackery, there is also precedent to her criticisms being used on wikipedia at entries for Healingherald.org, Trick or Treatment, Amen Clinic, Vitamin O, etc... Wikipedia already considers here to be a reliable source. In this case she is reporting the findings of Chris Masterjohn, Denise Minger, and others and adding her own expert analysis. It appears that Masterjohn's and Minger's analysis would be properly sourced via Dr. Hall
In addition, there is this: “The Relationship between Consumption of Animal Products (Beef, Pork, Poultry, Eggs, Fish and Dairy Products) and Risk of Chronic Diseases: A Critical Review” by Hu and Willett of Harvard School of Public Health states on page 16 that “the [China] study did not find a clear association between meat consumption and risk of heart disease or major cancers.” http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2004/09/17/000090341_20040917140312/Rendered/PDF/296130Consumption0of0animals01public1.pdf
The China project data shows no clear association between animal products and disease, but in Campbell’s book The China Study he claims to have found multiple associations. The raw univariate correlations published in the China project monograph actually show that plant products such as carbohydrates, plant protein, and fiber are more correlated with disease than animal protein and fat. Campbell invented a new, “holistic” style of science where he can make the data say whatever he wants it to, and that has been much of the critique from Masterjohn, Minger, Hall and others – that what Campbell is doing is not real science.
Campbell is actually proud of his new holistic science, and promotes it on the front page of his website in the article called “Correlation vs Causation.” Here is a key quote:
“In summary, I agree that using univariate correlations of population databases should not be used to infer causality, when one adheres to the reductionist philosophy of nutritional biology and/or when one ignores or does not have prior evidence of biological plausibility beforehand. In this case, these correlations can only be used to generate hypotheses for further investigation, that is, to establish biological plausibility. If in contrast, we start with explanatory models that represent the inherent complexity of nutrition and is accompanied by biological plausibility, then it is fair to look for supportive evidence among a collection of correlations…”
He says quite clearly that the standard refrain of “Correlation is not Causation” no longer applies to his new holistic science that he used in the The China Study to condemn meat. The fact the he used a new apparently “magical” science opposed by probably 99% of other scientists should be worthy of a mention, even if not referenced in other sources. He fully and proudly acknowledges that he contradicts widely-held a priori scientific philosophy to be able to reach his conclusions, and there should be some statement in wikipedia acknowledging this.
The same paper by Hu and Willet above quotes Doll and Peto from a different paper (interestingly, Peto was the epidemiologist for the China project, though he had no involvement in Campbell’s book The China Study.)
“Trustworthy epidemiological evidence, it should be noted, always requires demonstration that a relationship holds for individuals (or perhaps small groups) within a large population as well as between large population groups. Correlation between the incidence of cancer in whole towns or whole countries and, for example, the consumption of particular items of food can, at most, provide hypotheses for investigation by other means. Attempts to separate the roles of causative and of confounding factors by statistical techniques of multiple regression analysis have been made often, but evidence obtained in this way is, at best, of only marginal value.”
The head epidemiologist that worked on the China project clearly would vehemently disagree with Campbell’s new holistic science that Campbell used in the book The China Study to condemn meat. Campbell didn’t even bother to get “marginal value” by performing multivariate regression or accounting for confounding variables (as Minger demonstrated) because his new holistic science is all about cherry-picking simple univariate correlations.
While Campbell is a career scientist and researcher, his newly adopted holistic science that he relied upon to write his book and continues to endorse is clearly considered to be pseudoscience by mainstream science. I think once Campbell has fully-endorsed pseudoscience as he has done on his own website and in the various rebuttals he has published to the critics The China Study, then any commentary from acknowledged experts on pseudoscience such as Dr. Hall should be included whether it is second-sourced or not. I also think wikipedia has a responsibility to specifically give real science a favored position over pseudoscience. Dr Hall said that Masterjohn’s and Minger’s were good critiques. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cccpppmmm ( talk • contribs) 16:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Just a follow-up: "Correlation does not imply Causation" is an entry itself in wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation) and is considered by many to be a priori to the study of science.
Campbell's quote clearly shows that he does not believe that this applies to his new holistic science that he invented to make his China Study claims:
“In summary, I agree that using univariate correlations of population databases should not be used to infer causality, when one adheres to the reductionist philosophy of nutritional biology and/or when one ignores or does not have prior evidence of biological plausibility beforehand. In this case, these correlations can only be used to generate hypotheses for further investigation, that is, to establish biological plausibility. If in contrast, we start with explanatory models that represent the inherent complexity of nutrition and is accompanied by biological plausibility, then it is fair to look for supportive evidence among a collection of correlations…”
Cccpppmmm ( talk) 00:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
The criticism that was just added was sourced to this page, which seems to be some kind of religious debate, unless I'm misreading it. SlimVirgin talk| contribs
I don't think the following links should be included, because, as discussed above, they are not reliable sources. WP:ELNO says to avoid: "Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." and "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting."
* http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html Does the data match up? * http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=166/The China Study: Evidence for the Perfect Health Diet * http://abundantbrain.com/2010/07/debunking-junk-science-goodbye-china-study/ Debunking junk science - goodbye China study
If anyone can find any more criticism that is written by someone that could be considered an authority or is in a published source, then we should definitely add it to the article body and to the links. But until then I think we shouldn't link to these blogs. -- Aronoel ( talk) 23:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
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These edits all conform to WP:ELNO and WP:ELPOV Please refer to Wikipedia:Notability (people) These webpages are from scientists with Ph.D's
I disagree that www.cholesterol-and-health.com is a blog, it include 48 end notes and references. www.westonaprice.org even references this same article, should I include that instead? Dr. Weston Price is a famous nutrition pioneer.
This is also not a blog, it is from two scientists with a longstanding interest in diet and health. Paul Jaminet, Ph.D. Paul was an astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, became a software entrepreneur during the Internet boom. Shou-Ching Shih, Ph.D. Shou-Ching is a molecular biologist and cancer researcher at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, and Director of BIDMC’s Multi-Gene Transcriptional Profiling Core.
This is by Dr. Swirnoff. Dr. Swirnoff received his Ph.D. in neurobiology from UC San Diego where he conducted original research on cellular mechanisms underlying neurodegenerative disease, oxidative stress, and aging. He was a post-doctoral fellow at the Stein Institute for Research on Aging, and teaches physiology and neuroscience to medical students and undergraduates.
I also think that Denise Minger studies should be included in the criticism section as to make this article not be so extremely one sides with no neutral point of view. Dr. Weston Price has also referenced this. Also note that Colin Campbell even wrote to Denise Minger on the topic of his book. -- Kelly2357 10:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Kelly, several accounts and IP addresses have been arriving here to add material from blogs and websites. Could you please discuss your edits here on talk first, and base them entirely on reliable sources, as defined here by the policy? WP:PSTS is also policy and worth reading too. Blogs and personal websites aren't acceptable; nor are people publishing on partisan websites only. Many thanks, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 10:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
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Again with the censoring! These are only reviews, they simply let people see what all sides of the medical/scientific community have to say about the book. These reviews are from respected scientists, doctors and researchers with Ph.D's and they all have links/references to NON BLOG websites - as per wiki rules. "No original research" - in that case this whole page on "The China Study" should be deleted as The China Study is original research. "The only way you can show that your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material" - I do not think the book "The China Study" passes this requirement. That edit took me hours to write as I am not a whiz at wikipedia. I do not know who these other users are, I am a self taught noob wiki helper that works by myself, trying my best to improve wikipedia and impove on entires that blatenly have a one sided view. Kelly2357 —Preceding undated comment added 11:32, 11 November 2010 (UTC).
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Hi SlimVirgin I see you are a Wikipedia moderator who along with Akhran, is a also an animal rights activist and member of the Animal rights WikiProject. Please be fair to other contributors when censoring articles without good reason. Please don't let emotion get in the way of fact. Kelly2357
Hi Aronoel, the NYT piece isn't a review of the book, so it shouldn't be included in the reception section. [3] SlimVirgin talk| contribs 20:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Quote: Vegan animal rights activists at 30bananas forum have committed to hijacking the Wikipedia page on the China Study (seemingly in cahoots with some of the editors), removing any mention of the most relevant critiques of the book. You can see what tampering has been done on the revision history of the page. To give you an idea of what we are up against check out the comments from a 30 bananas member below:
I am sorry if this request lands in the wrong thread, but please alert all VEGAN Wikipedia editors and admins of this (if you know any)! "Denise Minger" is very likely a large scale underground defamation campaign against Dr.Campbell! No matter if she is a real person or not, this is no "private blogger". I wrote already to Dr.Campbell himself, I hope there will be more awareness of the case. But what is essential is urgent protection and following up on the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study Please do not take this lightly. This is a war somebody is leading on, but it can be stopped by focused and clear approach at the major concentration points (like the Wikipedia). Please consider adding this possibility to your agenda and to support the Wikipedia article on a daily base.
I just come back from the Wikipedia with a small first victory :) I was alerting many (vegan) admins and long term editors, and other people were on the move as well, and finally one of THE major Wikipedia admins, who happens to be vegan, is now watching over the article. ALL the "Denis Minger" blah got removed :) Plus some of the other only blog published, not peer-reviewed and not in the least scientifically backed nonsense too!
References:
Kelly, you've been asked many times to stop adding material from websites, including blogs and lobby groups. Please find reviews (negative or positive) published in reliable newspapers, magazines, journals, or books. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 03:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
This page is nothing short of a scandal. It is so clearly being hijacked by the pro-vegetarian lobby with no allowance for a growing and considerable bulk of contrary evidence. Anyone familiar with the extensive work by Dr Uffe Ravnskov, Gary Taubes and Malcolm Kendrick to name just three, would know that the Fat is Bad argument is about to be completely over-turned. In particular Ravnskov shows conclusively that not only is cholesterol important but is in fact protective and correlated to longevity in the over-55 year olds; but that our species has thrived for tens of thousands of years on animal protein, many cultures exclusively, and we benefit from animal fats in many ways - some vitamins are only fat soluble for instance! Then to openly attack and denigrate the work of Denise Minger who is clearly and demonstrably by her writing statistically very aware and who exposes some of the weak work of Campbell, but is abused in these edits and reviews as someone not to be listened to as she is not a scientist or relevantly qualified is underhand. Play the ball, not the man/woman! If you have doubts about her critique, say so, but to edit out valid and well-argued statistical analysis is unacceptable. Lastly Campbell makes so many unsupported, or weak connections it is hard to know where to start but for now, please recognise this article is blatantly and inexcusably biased. For the record, I have no connections with any food, animal, medical or other lobbying drive other than for the truth and for clearing the fog over cholesterol, diet, statins etc. which is currently leading to millions being prescribed damaging statins for a "raised" cholesterol number when the true cause of cardiovascular disease is increasingly being accepted to be due to inflammation in the artery walls leading to plaque formation (which starts IN the wall and NOT in the flowpath) and that of patients presenting for the first-time with cardiovascular disease, almost exactly 50% have below average, so immediately exposing one fundamental untruth of the lipid hypothesis: that serum cholesterol levels are correlated to heart disease. To disallow reputable blogs by reputable qualified scientists such as Dr Mary Enid of Weston Price Foundation, or the many qualified and medical scientific contributors at THINCS.ORG is to use a Wikipedia rule in an unintended way: yes arbitrary, ill-informed, unsubstantiated sites or sources should be ignored, but Ravnskov, Enid, Kendrick, Taubes and many others one could cite ARE qualified and published and respected. And at least Minger tackles the statistics directly to contrast, challenge and illuminate. As an internet based resource itself, Wikipedia should recognise the growing dominance of web sources of all kinds and not just dismiss them out of hand. For the sake of Wikipedia I urge slimvirgin to demonstrate more objectivity and neutrality: this discussion and the edits (some only suggested by others and not implemented) on the actual page are evidence of deliberate cant against any criticism of the Campbell study. Good science well performed is robust enough to tolerate such criticism and this should be allowed to stand - comments suggesting that any criticism of this valuable book be expunged are evidence of those who do not understand how scientific progress is based upon critiques of hypothesis and experimental validation. Please take this as genuine and sincere concern about the quality of this pages management by an unbiased, uninvolved contributor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RPainter ( talk • contribs) 16:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
This research will never hold up in the laboratory or in-vitro. It's hippy vegan lunacy, like people going crazy about vaccinations. Any ultra low calorie diet will decrease a population's cancer risks. Big deal. Chemotherapy is an elaborate drug-induced way of taxing and wasting-away the body in a war of attrition. Same approach. Any grow-factor-promoting nutrition will effectively increase cancer issues in individuals with uncontrolled cancer cell growth in their body. That doesn't mean the nutrient or food-stuff is a carcinogen. That's basic science: correlation versus causality. There needs to be an entire section in this article dedicated to Criticism, not a minor note at the end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.182.124.123 ( talk) 00:28, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I just saw this new documentary, much of which is about this book, and argues its case. I'm not sure, though, if adding the link to this documentary is acceptable for this article. Once I got in trouble when I tried to add a link that I thought was. So now I learned my lesson to ask on the talk page first. :) Anyway, the link is http://www.forksoverknives.com/about/synopsis/ Thanks. BernieW650 ( talk) 18:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
This is ridiculous that the people managing this entry used their bias in favor of vegetarianism to keep the critique from Dr. Harriet Hall out of here. What a terrible abuse of wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.9.166 ( talk • contribs)
Though I am sympathetic to the author's findings, I have a hard time taking it seriously when there are no serious critiques for me to weigh the evidence. This does not look like objective reporting to me. Eriostemon ( talk) 06:14, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Maybe this Talk page should have an FAQ section at the top explaining why Minger, Hall, etc don't meet WP:RS? -- Aronoel ( talk) 19:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Not including them violates WP:NPOV in the extreme, and WP:COI is huge here. This overrides the minor WP:RS issue over their analysis of the study. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.180.106.231 ( talk) 19:29, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
I do NOT agree with the conclusion Ms. Minger makes (namely that meat and milk are healthy), and for many of the statistically documented reasons elucidated in the comments section of her pages, where posters tear her apart; nonetheless, I would NOT remove her link as a violation of the 'reliable source' policy, since very few people have dared to take issue with this Dr. Campbell's premise, and seeing the dearth of reliable sources, I'd say that her source, since it has many references (incorrect conclusion notwithstanding) is about as 'reliable' as you're gonna get for a 'dissenting' view here. Furthermore, Minger raises one good point that I recall seeing in comments on her blog: namely, it is possible that vegans have healthier lifestyles due to their personality or whatever common cause exists, and that *these* healthy lifestyle habits are the cause of the lower incidence of diseases, not the vegan diet --but even though vegans & vegetarians are healthier as a whole, this is not always the case, as one commenter mentions that the Japanese smoke cigarettes quite a lot and yet Japanese citizens are healthier, lower cancer, longer life-spans, etc., due (we presume) because of their more vegetarian diet. And, I add: Japan is one REAL stressful country, which works their employees with a work ethic second to none. So, the peanut gallery commenting on Minger's blog make valid criticisms of HER work, which equate to "supportive" comments for this book here -and, i would consider looking at the comments sections of her blog and seeing how many well-sourced commentaries -either for or against Dr. Campbell's book exist. They might be just as reliable (if not more so) than Minger's work. 71.101.36.16 ( talk) 09:59, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
An editor recently added that Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Calories extensively criticized Campbell's book, [11] but I can't find even a mention of it. Can anyone else? SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 22:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi again, our sources don't have to be triple PhDs, presidents, and angels (though we're partial to all three). :) Here are the sourcing rules, from our policy, Wikipedia:Verifiability:
So basically you need to find reliable, independently published sources, preferably secondary sources, for anything you want to add. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 16:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Eisfbnore, can you say why you're adding templates to well-formed refs? CITEVAR say not to do that. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 18:59, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
{{harvnb|Campbell|2006|pp=[http://books.google.com/books?id=KgRR12F0RPAC&pg=PA72 72–78]}}
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Eisfbnore
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19:17, 29 August 2011 (UTC)I think there is something seriously wrong going on with regard to this article. It has been put up for deletion and has also been marked as relatively unimportant. This is quite surprising, since the book talks about the most important epidemiological study ever undertaken. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but there is a deeper issue here of sinister interests manipulating Wikipedia articles. In particular, in the case of this article, Wikipedia is highly vulnerable to sophisticated manipulation by the pharmaceutical industry and the meat industry. Such anti-vegetarian economic interests may be subtly suppressing this article. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 21:52, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Milk proteins are broken down to amino acids during digestion, and these are the same as for any other protein. Until there is a convincing explanation of why milk proteins are toxic (which seems a priori extremely unlikely), one must regard some of the "China Diet" claims with suspicion. Paulhummerman ( talk) 13:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi דין נוזאור, can you say why you keep removing or wanting to add commentary to what this source said about the study? SlimVirgin (talk) 20:32, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
דין נוזאור ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:51, 20 March 2012 (UTC).
Hi Bsr969, could you say which aspect of the book you'd like your edits to highlight? [12] [13] [14] As things stand, it's not entirely clear. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 15:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
this article does a good job of summarizing the information in the book. it does however do a bad job at 'showing both sides of the issue'. all criticism is discounted as 'coming from people who have an agenda'.
surely some reputable source will have pointed out that for all the supposedly healthy effects of the chinese diet the chinese actually LIVE SHORTER than these o-so-unhealthy westerners (and japanese) with all their meat and fish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
or that a lot of the found results do not actually show a better health and higher life-expectancy (as measured by number of people dying), but rather measure some hormones or such and deduce from that that the subject will probably have a higher life-expectancy. Selena1981 ( talk) 00:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
If we are going to keep this section, then we should keep this section brief. I have shortened this section and edited so it is less inflammatory and more consistant with Wikipedia's policy on NPOV In general, when editing a Wikipedia article about books, we shouldn't include a huge number of quotes and it shouldn't reprint every point the author makes. This entire Wikipedia page is far too long. Take a look at any other non-fiction book like The World Without Us. The summary of that book is only six paragraphs long and only covers the main points of the book. In relation to this point(i.e.industry backing scientific studies on nutrition), then this point is not a main point of the book. It's not even a well sourced point. I would prefer not including this point, but for the purposes of compromise, I have shortened the section to the main points.
Wikipedia is not a place for soapboxing and these quotes are inflammatory. More importantly, when you read the pages where the quotes come from, the book doesn't support the statements that are made. There are other Wikipedia pages that discuss veganism. If you want to ensure the issue of industry backed scientific studies on nutrition is in a Wikipedia page, please consider editing other pages that better support this point with better evidence. DivaNtrainin ( talk) 04:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
I read the following sentence several times; it still makes no sense:
The part that says "with a statistical significance level equal to or exceeding 99.9% certainty" simply means that the researchers were pretty sure: pretty sure the person had blood cholesterol. But everyone has blood cholesterol. I say that with a statistical significance of 100% certainty. Sooo... apart from pointing out that people in general are more likely to contract Western diseases than, say, rocks, what was actually intended here? Fuzzypeg ★ 14:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The study included a comparison of the prevalence of Western diseases ... in each county, using 1973-75 death rates. ... [It] found that one of the strongest predictors of Western diseases on a county level in 1973-75 was the fact that different people ten years later had blood cholesterol with a statistical significance level equal to or exceeding 99.9 percent certainty. The study linked lower blood cholesterol levels to lower rates of heart disease and cancer. As blood cholesterol levels decreased from 170 mg/dl to 90 mg/dl, cancers of the liver, rectum, colon, lung, breast, leukemia, brain, stomach and esophagus (throat) decreased.
Why is the reception section so heavily biased in favour of the book? There is no criticism to balance the opinion. Denise Minger's statistical analysis should be added here. Someone do that, please. 121.74.155.219 ( talk) 05:20, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
The authors conclude that people who eat a plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding animal products such as beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese, and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates
There is no evidence, and plenty of evidence to the contrary, that fish belongs on that list. And there's nothing in this article that indicates how the authors drew their conclusions from the study or that the conclusions are warranted by the gathered evidence. -- 68.111.35.169 ( talk) 02:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
There is evidence that fish is not a health-promoting food. See http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/fish/ -- Calclements ( talk) 22:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I reviewed this today and made a bunch of changes. First, sorry for my first edit on the Willet/Hu thing.. i missed the boat that they were responding to a critique by Campbell of their earlier study. Fixed that now. But the description of Willett's response was just off - the content in our article made it seem like Willet was dead opposed to Campbell and that Willet flip-flopped; neither is borne out by the sources. There were 2 reviews of the China Study book by non-notable reviewers who were also non-expert in nutrition which I deleted. Strange choices. Added 2 recent reviews that cite China Study papers. Happy to discuss. Jytdog ( talk) 01:43, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for talking! Jytdog ( talk) 16:17, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
This is not a real conversation. I'll work on other things! Jytdog ( talk) 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know how to remove the 'reliable, independent, third-party sources' needed tag/ i think i have addressed this need in recent posts. Not sure why fish follows this post?? :o) TonyClarke ( talk) 18:44, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
There is a remark about very high stomach cancer rates in China. That may be explained (or at least this may be a clue) by the fact that seemingly pickled food is a risk for gastric cancer, and that pickled foods are part of chinese culture (it's to be found how much pickled food the China Study participants ate compared to other parts of the world) (I read about this possible connection in PlantPositive article about China Study, an article I would recommend for these interested to collect different point of views on China Study, the guy at PlantPositive seems pretty eager to find The Truth).
I am puzzled at the difference of this article to the German Wikipedia article [15], which contains several critical mentions of misleading use of statistics. The English version here only seems to contain two brief critical views. The amount of contradiction between this article and the German one is too much: something seems wrong. -- Theosch ( talk) 09:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Just wondering if you guys can use this: www.msnbc.com/news/916555.asp I'm not familiar enough with The China Study article on Wikipedia, just working on a semi-/remotely-related article.
I am currently finishing up this book. As I indicated in my addition, I feel the title is a trifle misleading for the reason cited. Despite the title, the book reviews a substantial volume of past studies. If anything, these take up the bulk of the discussion. The whole idea of the book, as is clear from the book, is its placement within the context of the past scientific literature. This much is immediately clear, I think, to anyone who has read the book.
The second issue is controversy. The authors are aware that their findings will be controversial, and discussion of the hows and whys of this controversy occupy a substantial portion of the book. Saying that one's opponent in a controversy is motivated by a desire to protect his interests is, of course, often used as a kind of ad hominem ploy. The trouble is, what if that happens to be the case? It is reasonable to say that it often is true in the world of public policy and information which can affect the actual financial interests of particular interest groups. Were that not so, there would be no lobbyists in Washington, including those which openly promote the interests of various industries and professions.
It is a key point of the authors that the public needs to be aware of this controversy and the reasons for it. Since that point occupies a major part of the book, it is, I believe, essential to a fair description of the nature of this book.
-- Gunnermanz 15:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is too one-sided. It mentions that the book is controversial, but doesn't offer any rebuttals, or link to any anti-China Story resources. Dilvie 20:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the most POV article on wikipedia I've ever seen. Reading the discussion page is worse as the maintainer earnestly believes it's totally fine and that there is nobody disputing the claims made in the book when a quick google search would prove otherwise. 99.40.226.179 ( talk) 19:51, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
This article is a joke, it has no NPOV! If you look at the articles history and this talk, anything that challenges the science in the book or makes the publisher look 'bad' is always censored and removed - Kelly2357 10:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it's the job of a book article to refute that book and I don't think it's one-sided to not put criticisms in this article. You should definitely start a "Criticisms of the China Study" article and even link to it from this one, but the idea that every article about an objective thing must take in both sides of the argument seems silly to me. Atomly 12:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it's reasonable (more so necessary) to criticize (or link to criticism) a book that claims to be controversial. The article is not developed enough to have an alternate page dedicated to criticisms. I added a link to a "Thumbs Down Book Review." The article is very reasonable about it's criticism. Wikipedia is a place where people start when looking for information. It should provide that information-- on both sides.
Also, I think the title of the article should be changed to "The China Study: Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss, and Long-Term Health," since the article is about the book, not the China Study itself. As the article develops, the page titled "The China Study" could be used for the study itself.
--Nate 08:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I actually came to Wikipedia specifically to find criticisms of this book, but I am satisfied to have them in links, not in the article itself.
As to the critical review that is linked, I want to note that, according to the bio at the end of his review, Chris Masterjohn, that review's author, does not appear to yet have a degree in medicine and is "the creator and maintainer of Cholesterol-And-Health.Com, a website dedicated to extolling the virtues of cholesterol and cholesterol-rich foods." Although I realize that someone with such a background could have legitimate criticisms, I find some of his to be overbroad.
"Chris Masterjohn, that review's author, does not appear to yet have a degree in medicine"
vegan-cultist Campbell is also not an MD
For example, he complains that Campbell criticizes protein but that he fails to mention "the cannibalism or the swollen bellies of children that accompanies the protein-starved diet of the New Guinea Highlanders." First, calorie-starved might be a better term for those children. I don't think Campbell would argue that children should avoid animal protein if they cannot get sufficient calories any other way. Second and more fundamentally, Campbell does not state that protein consumption should be eliminated as Masterjohn seems to imply, just that consumption of animal-protein should be reduced or eliminated. Vegetable protein, he argues, is more than an adequate substitute. Lucylawful 20:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
i think the terminology depends on whether these children have a shortage of ALL food, or just a shortage of protein while still getting enough calories overall. that last one is a common occurrence among children in developing countries who are fed almost exclusively on rice and pasta (which is much cheaper then vegetables or animal-derived products) Selena1981 ( talk) 22:37, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
There was a recent edit about this, so I'll ask the quesiton here. Doesn't the book claim a relationship between early exposure to casein and the development of type 1 (as opposed to type 2) diabetes? Some sort of autoimmune reaction, IIRC. I haven't looked at it in a while so I'm not sure. Frankg 20:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I put the quotefarm tag because more than half the article consists of quotes. It needs some major pruning.-- Boffob 14:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
It was noted more than a year ago that this article is "one sided". Nothing has changed. In fact it appears to be worse with some criticism having been removed. Since the article cites only one source--the book itself--it cannot be said to " fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source." Unless, of course, no one has published anything critical of the author's findings, which is hard to believe but if that is the case then it calls into question the notability of the book. Incidentally, many of the section headings and paragraphs begin with "The authors ... ", which is just poor writing. -- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 08:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
(1) It has not been demonstrated that notable criticism of the book exists.
(2) The article is written with attribution of statements to the authors. Although the flow of the article suffers and I am considering how to improve the flow, this was done so that the article has NO POV at all.
I'm removing both of the tags.
Michael H 34 ( talk) 17:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
{{
RFCmedia}}
Is the article properly flagged for citing only one source and not fairly representing all significant viewpoints?
For those who wish to make comments, please read the following:
The tags
Criticism
Yes, I removed a section of the article that was NOT about the book at all. The section I removed was completely Original Research. Again, if the title of the article were nutrition, then including notable and reliable POV about nutrition would be appropriate, but the section removed was not notable and not reliable. Thus, the section removed was off topic, not notable and not reliable, and therefore I boldly removed it. The section removed was misrepresented on this discussion page as criticism of the book.
Criticism of the book is appropriate if it is notable and reliable. Users are free to add appropriate criticism. Criticism is NOT necessary if none exists. Do all articles without criticism merit a POV tag? I strongly suggest NO.
The Main Point
This article is NOT a forum for discussing nutrition. The title of the article is The China Study.
I am expanding this noteworthy article as a gift of my time and energy to Wikipedia. Michael H 34 ( talk) 15:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Thank you all for your comments.
I disagree with Boffob, who suggested that it would be preferable for the article to provide less information in order to avoid the presentation of a POV. "The authors claim..." IS enough to make the article neutral. The information provided by the article CAN include a POV as long as it is attributed and thus not the POV of the article. I agree that the use of Ibid would be preferable, but this would be problematic if another user wished to add an alternate citation just prior to the Ibid footnote.
The authors' viewpoints are presented. There is nothing wrong with this. The article is neutral and the authors' viewpoints are attributed to the authors.
I ask that the tags be removed while (other) editors add notable and reliable criticism of the book if they wish, and/or nominate the article for deletion. Michael H 34 ( talk) 05:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
To everyone who thinks the POV tag should go: Does the article " fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source"? -- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 08:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This article (about a book) has no POV, so how can a POV tag (about nutrition) be appropriate? Michael H 34 ( talk) 15:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
I don't think an article can be claimed to be NPOV when the editors watching the article repeatedly remove information critical of the book. The article is about the book, not a summary of the book; it should mostly be referenced to reviews, positive and negative, and not to the book itself. Warren Dew ( talk) 19:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I found this essay ( http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html) and it seems like a good candidate for starting criticism section because it addresses the book directly. What do y'all think? I wrote this short paragraph based on the essay. -- Hraefen Talk 09:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious to see if Michael H 34 will accept Masterjohn's stuff on The China Study as a reliable source. I'm not sure I would. He has published peer-reviewed articles on nutrition and other articles in Wise Traditions. But everything he has written on TCS appears to self-published on his own web site.
In any case, some more fundamental criticisms by Masterjohn occur in this paragraph (emphasis added):
Only 39 of 350 pages are actually devoted to the China Study. The bold statement on page 132 that “eating foods that contain any cholesterol above 0 mg is unhealthy,”5 is drawn from a broad—and highly selective—pool of research. Yet chapter after chapter reveals a heavy bias and selectivity with which Campbell conducted, interpreted, and presents his research.
-- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 08:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)-- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 08:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
It is appropriate to include notable and reliable criticism of the book. The criticism should be attributed to the critic, and information about the critic should also be included.
For example, if Masterjohn's criticism is considered notable and reliable (I should not be the one to make this decision), then Masterjohn's qualifications to be a critic and information about the publisher of the criticism should be included along with the criticism. Michael H 34 ( talk) 15:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
This study does need some criticism, but the Masterjohn webpage is not it; none of this information has been published in peer-reviewed journals, and Masterjohn doesn't appear to have any credentials related to nutrition or medicine. I'm going to remove the reference to Masterjohn. Interested in hearing others' thoughts. Rocko1124 ( talk) 17:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I came here specifically looking for information on the China Study itself and links to articles which discuss arguments supporting and refuting the claims made in the book. There seems to be some dissension over whether or not such links should exist since this page merely discusses the book and therefore is primarily quotes and information directly from the book. I think there needs to be a separate page discussing the study itself, with criticisms and articles from outside the book itself. Perhaps a "Discussion of the China Study" page in addition to this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.209.219 ( talk) 07:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
I have proposed nominated the article for deletion on
notability and
fringe theory grounds. --
DieWeisseRose (
talk)
21:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I disagree that this article should be deleted. For the following reasons:
-- Thomas.vandenbroeck ( talk) 07:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
the book is certainly notable enough to warrant its own wikipedia-article. unfortunately this article looks more like the work of a fanboy than an encyclopedic discussion of the merits of the book: what the book claims, why that is possibly controversial. and who agrees or disagrees with the claims in the book and why.
T. Colin Campbell is not listed as "Director of The China Project" on the China Project web site or on his Cornell bio. To my knowledge, his book and associated web site is the main source of the claim that he is the Director. -- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 00:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Dubious? I don't see on that link that he is the director. But maybe you should try following the 'publications' link and searching for 'campbell'. His name comes up in basically all of the publications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.106.224.20 ( talk) 00:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It is very relevant when it is the web site of the project he claims to be the Director of. -- DieWeisseRose ( talk) 05:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Way dubious. this article smacks of dubiousness. talks all about cholesterol and does not even mention good cholesterol vs. bad cholesterol (ie. LDL and HDL ) Secondly, a study of 220 million people or something like that, is just riiidiculous to begin with. (my emphasis on riiidiculous.) think about Nielson ratings. you get a statistically representative sample of the entire American TV watching population from only a few thousand people. This 'article' throws up more red flags than i care to mention. What about the Inuit (eskimos) who subsist on virtually nothing but whale blubber? are they dying left and right of all these diseases? i digress.
Since most are from the book itself (again, I don't think that's proper, unless there is question whether the author(s) made the statements in the book or not), can't the subsequent ones be reduced to "Campbell, page x" (or something to that effect)? It really is not good form to have the same book listed completely each time. ETA: consider the notes and references section of Foie gras for example. It's a much nicer way to approach repeated entries.-- Boffob ( talk) 03:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm advocating that a separate article for the author of this study should be restored. What is your view? Vapour ( talk) 01:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Somebody fix this sentence: "They also report that the counties in China with the highest rates of some cancers were more than 100 times greater than counties with the lowest rates of these cancers." Offhand, it seems to say that these specific cancers were more common in very large counties.. (?) Muad ( talk) 07:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I have no strong opinions on the book (in fact, I only heard of it today), but I went through the entire article waiting for criticism of the theory, so that I could make a preliminary judgement of whether it was worth pursuing. The lack of such criticism left me disappointed.
I note in particular that I have read a great number of articles (WP or otherwise) discussing similarly controversial theories, and considering that these almost invariably contain statements ranging from "the scientific community is split" to "main-stream science has been highly critical" (with corresponding lengthier explanations), I am highly surprised to not see any such comments here. If no such criticism exist then this would be truly remarkable---and well worth mentioning. (Then again, if no such criticism exist, I would almost certainly have heard of the study or its ideas repeatedly by now.)
I hasten to stress that controversy is not the same as faultiness: A theory can be highly controversial, even condemned, without necessarily being faulty. Note e.g. some early reactions to the theories of Darwin and Einstein, or the disputes around "The Bell Curve". 188.100.194.167 ( talk) 17:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I also just heard of the book today. Checked the article, noticed it was one-sided, started a Criticism section, then came to the talk page, to find that one has been expunged (?) Apologies if I should not have done so. Weavehole ( talk) 09:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC)weavehole
same here: i just read the article and i find it talks about some interesting points. certainly provides an interesting counter-argument against all the protein-based diets that are popular nowadays. but the lack of a decent criticism-section is very distracting. it makes the article much weaker overall: as if the person who wrote it was afraid the ideas in it couldn't stand a healthy dose of academical debate. Selena1981 ( talk) 00:00, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
All the links for "Plant-based diet" redirect to vegetarianism, however there is an actual Plant-based diet wiki page. I would like to update these links so that they redirect to the proper page. -- Thomas.vandenbroeck ( talk) 22:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Here is the full quote:
ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI1
GEORGE V. MANN, ANNE SPOERRY, MARGARETE GARY and DEBRA JARASHOW Mann, G. V. (Vanderbilt Univ. School of Medicine, Nashville, Tenn. 37203), A. Spoerry, M. Gray, and D. Jarashow. Atherosclerosis in the Masai. Am J Epidemiol 95: 26–37, 1972.–The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious.
atherosclerosis; autopsy; cholesterol; coronary artery disease; diet; exercise
1 From the Nutrition Division, vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee 37203 (G. V. Mann and D. Jarashow), and the Aftrican Medical and Research Foundation, Nairobi (A. Spoerry and M. Gray). Reprint requests to Dr. Mann. (From the Nutrition: The Great Diet Debate
The Minger material looks good to me, but I know nothing about this field. Our normal rules for source reliability require some sort of third-party validation of the quality, e.g. publication in a peer-reviewed journal, publication by a recognized authority, etc. What evidence do we have that the Minger material is reliable? -- Macrakis ( talk) 18:25, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
You will not find any third party validation of the quality of Minger's work. However, you may find the response to her critics by Campbell himself here : http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html -- Kasui84 ( talk) 13:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Minger "looks good" and "Campbell replied" is not enough to count as "scientific" or "peer-reviewed". This entire thing is a large scale scam going on right now. Denise Minger is allegedly a private fun blogger, without any scientific background whatsoever. Her "papers" have no scientific weight or credibility whatsoever. She is not credible in any way, she is a completely random private blogger, writing allegedly about her "raw foodie experiences". I so far removed of all the data concerning the "Minger" scam. 92.231.86.66 ( talk) 00:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Wow, biased much? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.99.170 ( talk) 18:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe Minger’s analysis would be sourced through Dr. Harriet Hall’s article at Science Based Medicine : http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6092
I believe Dr. Harriet Hall’s criticism that has been deleted should be re-instated as well, and criticism from her second article should be included as well. Dr. Hall is considered an expert at detecting bad science (see her wiki entry – she is a columnist and editor at various magazines.) While Science Based Medicine where the China Study critique was published is an online website, it does have an editorial board of medical and scientific experts; it is not a self-published blog. Dr. Hall has published extensively in professional magazines such as Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine, Skeptic, and Skeptical Inquirer (and even had her own column in Oprah Winfrey’s magazine.) She even has her own wiki entry.
The inclusion of Dr. Hall would also maybe warrant the inclusion of Denise Minger’s critique because Minger’s analysis was utilized heavily in Dr. Hall’s 2nd article critiquing The China Study (see link above). Minger’s analysis would be sourced through Dr. Hall’s article. Again, Dr. Hall is an expert at analyzing phony science, and she had no problems with the Minger analysis. As an expert and impartial arbiter, she found Minger’s analysis better than Campbell’s of the very same data, and that should be worthy of a mention. Cccpppmmm ( talk) 13:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC) If Dr Hall have no problem with minger's "analysis", then dr hall is not a reliable source. LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.153.61.69 ( talk) 00:26, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
When deciding how to rate Hall's and Minger's positions vis-a-vis China Study, I strongly suggest review what PlantPositive had to say about their positions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.121.182.122 ( talk) 20:20, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I suggest removing and/or replacing Michael Eades unscientific opinion since: 1) it has not been directed at any specific "obfuscation" and is instead a generalized statement, 2) it offer no scientific critique, 3) it may be more of a flamboyant opinionated hyperbole ploy for a link to his own blog post, 4) this space if used correctly seems better served with factual scientific based responses and criticism.
Current text that I'm suggesting to be removed or replaced: "One such critic, physician and author Michael Eades wrote, "The China Study is a masterpiece of obfuscation. It is obfuscatory in so many ways it could truly qualify as a work of obfuscatory genius. It would be difficult for a mere mortal to pen so much confusion, ambiguity, distortion and misunderstanding in what is basically a book-length argument for a personal opinion masquerading as hard science." [39]
I would urge anyone with a grasp of statistics to look at Denise Minger's analysis of the China Study data (
http://rawfoodsos.com/). DM even offers a basic stats refresher on her site! Regardless of her scientific background, little has been offered by way of criticism that detracts from her grasp of mathematics and the robustness of her work. Her work does not discredit TCC but it does call in to question how robust HIS statistical analyses of the data are. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
144.87.143.3 (
talk)
16:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Various mathematicians have analyzed china study data again and ALL have got the same conclusions than campbell for that study. Campbell's global conclusions about effects of animal foods (in certain amounts) are based in dozens of studies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.153.61.69 ( talk) 00:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I suggest honestly presenting the full context of the paragraph rather than the current out-of-context quotes. Here is the remainder of the book quote paragraph on page 107 (most of which is actually copied onto Michael Eades website
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/China-Study-page-107.jpg), which if read in full presents Dr Campbell's message very differently than Micheal Eades extracted piece.
"Absolute proof in science is nearly unattainable. Instead, a theory is proposed and debated until the weight of the evidence is so overwhelming that everyone commonly accepts that the theory is most likely true. In the case of diet and disease, the China Study adds a lot of weight to the evidence. Its experimental features (multiple diet, disease and lifestyle characteristics, and unusual range of dietary experience, a good means of measuring data quality) provide an unparalleled opportunity to expand our thinking about diet and disease in ways that previously were not available. It was a study that was like a flashlight that illuminated a path that I had never fully seen before."--
Jdmumma (
talk)
06:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Micheal Eades original quote: "On page 107 of The China Study, Dr. Campbell writes: 'At the end of the day, the strength and consistency of the majority of the evidence is enough to draw valid conclusions. Namely, whole plant-based foods are beneficial, and animal-based foods are not.' Then one inch below (literally) he writes the following: 'The China Study was an important milestone in my thinking. Standing alone, it does not prove that diet causes disease.' So, the China study produces valid conclusions as to causality, i.e., 'whole plant-based foods are beneficial, and animal-based foods are not.' Yet the China study 'does not prove that diet causes disease.' Say what?" [42] --
Jdmumma (
talk)
06:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
I suggest we delete ANY criticism of this work immediately. Wikipedia has a duty to protect this important book/study. Conflicting studies should be expunged. Articles or quotes from conflicting Doctors need to be deleted or at least make sure you remove 'Dr.' from their name as to discredit.
Excellent work everyone! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.173.223.44 ( talk) 19:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Are you serious? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.170.10.178 ( talk) 22:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
This is pretty sad. The people who've removed all the criticism references from this article should be ashamed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.58.120.11 ( talk) 01:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
If you have to be dishonest about suppressing dissent, then your material must not be factual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diafono ( talk • contribs) 06:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Could there be a suspicion of ad hominem, or even poisoning the well, in the removal of all mention of criticisms of this book made by Denise Minger, Chris Masterjohn, and Dr Harriet Hall? While it is natural for an encyclopedia to rely on authority, it can be very difficult to avoid accusations of relying on argument from authority. Rather than indulging in an editing war, I should like to plead for a balanced approach and for the restoration of carefully reasoned criticism based on sound scientific principles. Casual readers should be made aware that the book's content is not scientifically unchallenged. Anarchie76 ( talk) 13:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi SlimVirgin,
Re: <a href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:76.75.115.179&redirect=no">your comment</a>
You wrote:
Hi, your edits to this are what we call original research. You need to find a reliable source who says exactly what you are saying. You can't extrapolate from original data. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
In this case I disagree. I am not extrapolating from or processing the original data, I am _quoting_ the original data! In science, if Campbell's book says "+" and the raw China study data says "-" then quoting the discrepancy is all it takes to either invalidate a particular aspect of the book or at least force some revaluation.
Significant correlation factors for all relevant animal produce, except milk, (see page 215 of that paper [1]) have negative signs! Since the discrepancy is so evident then you do not need a peer review system to evaluate my assertion or my claims - I did not produce them! I am a messenger! No matter how many people I can get to peer-review and agree or disagree with my message, the "-" correlation factor will still remain "-" and it will still contradtict the book no matter what anybody would say! Minus is minus! The original raw China study data - already a peer-reviewed published work - basically speaks by itself - against the book! Why not let the numbers speak loud and clear on your wiki page! If my editing and formatting is not well constructed (I am learning) why not post the link and the number quotes by yourself! You have all the data linked! If you still require a formal peer-review acceptance, or feel there is a need to qualify it, you can publish it with a "disputed" qualifier added by you to my text, as you (wiki) often do in similar disputed situations.
Stan Bleszynski 76.75.115.179 ( talk) 02:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi SlimVirgin,
Re: "Your analysis could be correct, but we have no way of judging it. That's why we ask for reliable published secondary sources. See our policy on primary and secondary sources at WP:PSTS, which is part of our No original research policy, something all editors are asked to abide by. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)"
I am still a bit puzzled. It is of course correct as long as the China study data is correct! It is not my analysis, I only posted some raw correlations without amalyzing or processing anything! It is supported by the China study itself (you can check the reference link I posted, see page 215 therein). Besides, this is only a comment about a popular book entry, not a peer-reviewed publication! Stan Bleszynski 76.75.115.179 ( talk) 22:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
It seems pretty relevant to include the criticism that T. Colin Campbell, himself, has responded to publicly.
Why do you feel that these are not relevant to the article?
Last I checked, this was an encyclopedia. People come to the China Study page to learn about the China study. The fact that a blogger posted an in-depth analysis of the China Study and that it gained so much notoriety that Campbell himself responded to it seems like the kind of relevant information that should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.237.242 ( talk) 19:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Well if you read the section "Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves," you can clearly see reason to include the information about the China Study analysis and its relation to the China Study itself. It is not about refuting the claims of the China Study, it is about the criticisms and discussion that ensued among the author of the book and a blogger. How can you justify excluding these dialogues (or other dialogues) when the author himself addressed them? That, itself is an interesting and informational fact. It is a source about itself, it isn't a source for the article! You can't use the fact that it isn't peer reviewed to exclude it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.237.242 ( talk) 02:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
This is not about self-published sources. It's about it being a source about itself. The fact that the author had these discussions about the book the wikipedia article is on is extremely interesting, and completely relevant to a 'criticisms' section. The citation is only as a source about the source itself! The fact that these discussions have taken place. It is not about citing information presented in the article. To me, it doesn't seem like you are understanding the difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.237.242 ( talk) 03:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The blogger is not the source for wikipedia. The blogger is the source for information about the blogger and the dialogue! I feel like you're not understanding this point. I agree that as the entry was before, it is not acceptable, but if it were rewritten to be about the dialogue, then I would hope you would not remove that information. As it seems pertinent and completely in keeping with Wikipedia guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.170.10.178 ( talk) 22:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
No. I'm a PhD Student in Computer Science in Florida. I have no connection to any bloggers. I just have an interest in nutrition, and find the recent treatment of this article not very impartial. Reading the discussion for the article it's pretty clear that there is some kind of focused effort on the internet to rid the article of any mention of imperfections. I had read the article before and had come back to find the material I was looking for deleted and I was just trying to figure out why. Since that was part of the article that lead me to do further research. I just feel that others would benefit from knowing that the author has had back-and-forths with at least 3 people publicly about this book. One is a professor at Colorado State University. I learned more about "The China Study" from these back and forths than I did actually reading the China Study, ironically enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.170.56.157 ( talk) 17:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe Dr. Harriet Hall’s criticism should be included as well as the criticisim from her latest article on the subject http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6092. Dr. Hall is considered an expert at detecting bad science (see her wiki entry – she is a columnist and editor at various magazines.) While Science Based Medicine where the China Study critique was published is an online website, it does have an editorial board of medical and scientific experts, and Dr. Hall has published extensively in professional magazines such as Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine, Skeptic, and Skeptical Inquirer (and even had her own column in Oprah Winfrey’s magazine.) She even has her own wiki entry.
The inclusion of Dr. Hall would also maybe warrant the inclusion of Denise Minger’s critique because Minger’s analysis was utilized heavily in Dr. Hall’s 2nd article critiquing The China Study (see link above). Minger’s analysis would be sourced through Dr. Hall’s article. Again, Dr. Hall is an expert at analyzing phony science, and she had no problems with the Minger analysis. As an expert and impartial arbiter, she found Minger’s analysis better than Campbell’s of the very same data, and that should be worthy of a mention.
The China Study is just a diet book that has not itself undergone peer-review, and it might be an important criticism that the science is so shoddy that 23-year old English major can pick it apart. Dr. Hall, an expert in detecting phony science, definitely believes that The China Study is shoddy science. Cccpppmmm ( talk) 19:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Chris Masterjohn's criticism was published in Harriet Hall's first article, and Denise Minger's criticism was published in Hall's second article. Dr. Hall is a widely recognized authority on detecting quackery (she has her own wikipedia entry), so she would in fact be a reliable, independent, secondary source.
She wrote an article for Science Based Medicine where she discussed Masterjohn's critique of the China Study, and as an expert she concurred with his criticisms. She then wrote another article for Science Based Medicine where she discussed Minger's critique of the China Study, and as an expert she concurred with her criticisms.
As well as being a a writer and editor at various professional magazines concerning quackery, there is also precedent to her criticisms being used on wikipedia at entries for Healingherald.org, Trick or Treatment, Amen Clinic, Vitamin O, etc... Wikipedia already considers here to be a reliable source. In this case she is reporting the findings of Chris Masterjohn, Denise Minger, and others and adding her own expert analysis. It appears that Masterjohn's and Minger's analysis would be properly sourced via Dr. Hall
In addition, there is this: “The Relationship between Consumption of Animal Products (Beef, Pork, Poultry, Eggs, Fish and Dairy Products) and Risk of Chronic Diseases: A Critical Review” by Hu and Willett of Harvard School of Public Health states on page 16 that “the [China] study did not find a clear association between meat consumption and risk of heart disease or major cancers.” http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2004/09/17/000090341_20040917140312/Rendered/PDF/296130Consumption0of0animals01public1.pdf
The China project data shows no clear association between animal products and disease, but in Campbell’s book The China Study he claims to have found multiple associations. The raw univariate correlations published in the China project monograph actually show that plant products such as carbohydrates, plant protein, and fiber are more correlated with disease than animal protein and fat. Campbell invented a new, “holistic” style of science where he can make the data say whatever he wants it to, and that has been much of the critique from Masterjohn, Minger, Hall and others – that what Campbell is doing is not real science.
Campbell is actually proud of his new holistic science, and promotes it on the front page of his website in the article called “Correlation vs Causation.” Here is a key quote:
“In summary, I agree that using univariate correlations of population databases should not be used to infer causality, when one adheres to the reductionist philosophy of nutritional biology and/or when one ignores or does not have prior evidence of biological plausibility beforehand. In this case, these correlations can only be used to generate hypotheses for further investigation, that is, to establish biological plausibility. If in contrast, we start with explanatory models that represent the inherent complexity of nutrition and is accompanied by biological plausibility, then it is fair to look for supportive evidence among a collection of correlations…”
He says quite clearly that the standard refrain of “Correlation is not Causation” no longer applies to his new holistic science that he used in the The China Study to condemn meat. The fact the he used a new apparently “magical” science opposed by probably 99% of other scientists should be worthy of a mention, even if not referenced in other sources. He fully and proudly acknowledges that he contradicts widely-held a priori scientific philosophy to be able to reach his conclusions, and there should be some statement in wikipedia acknowledging this.
The same paper by Hu and Willet above quotes Doll and Peto from a different paper (interestingly, Peto was the epidemiologist for the China project, though he had no involvement in Campbell’s book The China Study.)
“Trustworthy epidemiological evidence, it should be noted, always requires demonstration that a relationship holds for individuals (or perhaps small groups) within a large population as well as between large population groups. Correlation between the incidence of cancer in whole towns or whole countries and, for example, the consumption of particular items of food can, at most, provide hypotheses for investigation by other means. Attempts to separate the roles of causative and of confounding factors by statistical techniques of multiple regression analysis have been made often, but evidence obtained in this way is, at best, of only marginal value.”
The head epidemiologist that worked on the China project clearly would vehemently disagree with Campbell’s new holistic science that Campbell used in the book The China Study to condemn meat. Campbell didn’t even bother to get “marginal value” by performing multivariate regression or accounting for confounding variables (as Minger demonstrated) because his new holistic science is all about cherry-picking simple univariate correlations.
While Campbell is a career scientist and researcher, his newly adopted holistic science that he relied upon to write his book and continues to endorse is clearly considered to be pseudoscience by mainstream science. I think once Campbell has fully-endorsed pseudoscience as he has done on his own website and in the various rebuttals he has published to the critics The China Study, then any commentary from acknowledged experts on pseudoscience such as Dr. Hall should be included whether it is second-sourced or not. I also think wikipedia has a responsibility to specifically give real science a favored position over pseudoscience. Dr Hall said that Masterjohn’s and Minger’s were good critiques. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cccpppmmm ( talk • contribs) 16:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Just a follow-up: "Correlation does not imply Causation" is an entry itself in wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation) and is considered by many to be a priori to the study of science.
Campbell's quote clearly shows that he does not believe that this applies to his new holistic science that he invented to make his China Study claims:
“In summary, I agree that using univariate correlations of population databases should not be used to infer causality, when one adheres to the reductionist philosophy of nutritional biology and/or when one ignores or does not have prior evidence of biological plausibility beforehand. In this case, these correlations can only be used to generate hypotheses for further investigation, that is, to establish biological plausibility. If in contrast, we start with explanatory models that represent the inherent complexity of nutrition and is accompanied by biological plausibility, then it is fair to look for supportive evidence among a collection of correlations…”
Cccpppmmm ( talk) 00:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
The criticism that was just added was sourced to this page, which seems to be some kind of religious debate, unless I'm misreading it. SlimVirgin talk| contribs
I don't think the following links should be included, because, as discussed above, they are not reliable sources. WP:ELNO says to avoid: "Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." and "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting."
* http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html Does the data match up? * http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=166/The China Study: Evidence for the Perfect Health Diet * http://abundantbrain.com/2010/07/debunking-junk-science-goodbye-china-study/ Debunking junk science - goodbye China study
If anyone can find any more criticism that is written by someone that could be considered an authority or is in a published source, then we should definitely add it to the article body and to the links. But until then I think we shouldn't link to these blogs. -- Aronoel ( talk) 23:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
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These edits all conform to WP:ELNO and WP:ELPOV Please refer to Wikipedia:Notability (people) These webpages are from scientists with Ph.D's
I disagree that www.cholesterol-and-health.com is a blog, it include 48 end notes and references. www.westonaprice.org even references this same article, should I include that instead? Dr. Weston Price is a famous nutrition pioneer.
This is also not a blog, it is from two scientists with a longstanding interest in diet and health. Paul Jaminet, Ph.D. Paul was an astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, became a software entrepreneur during the Internet boom. Shou-Ching Shih, Ph.D. Shou-Ching is a molecular biologist and cancer researcher at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, and Director of BIDMC’s Multi-Gene Transcriptional Profiling Core.
This is by Dr. Swirnoff. Dr. Swirnoff received his Ph.D. in neurobiology from UC San Diego where he conducted original research on cellular mechanisms underlying neurodegenerative disease, oxidative stress, and aging. He was a post-doctoral fellow at the Stein Institute for Research on Aging, and teaches physiology and neuroscience to medical students and undergraduates.
I also think that Denise Minger studies should be included in the criticism section as to make this article not be so extremely one sides with no neutral point of view. Dr. Weston Price has also referenced this. Also note that Colin Campbell even wrote to Denise Minger on the topic of his book. -- Kelly2357 10:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Kelly, several accounts and IP addresses have been arriving here to add material from blogs and websites. Could you please discuss your edits here on talk first, and base them entirely on reliable sources, as defined here by the policy? WP:PSTS is also policy and worth reading too. Blogs and personal websites aren't acceptable; nor are people publishing on partisan websites only. Many thanks, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 10:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
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Again with the censoring! These are only reviews, they simply let people see what all sides of the medical/scientific community have to say about the book. These reviews are from respected scientists, doctors and researchers with Ph.D's and they all have links/references to NON BLOG websites - as per wiki rules. "No original research" - in that case this whole page on "The China Study" should be deleted as The China Study is original research. "The only way you can show that your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material" - I do not think the book "The China Study" passes this requirement. That edit took me hours to write as I am not a whiz at wikipedia. I do not know who these other users are, I am a self taught noob wiki helper that works by myself, trying my best to improve wikipedia and impove on entires that blatenly have a one sided view. Kelly2357 —Preceding undated comment added 11:32, 11 November 2010 (UTC).
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Hi SlimVirgin I see you are a Wikipedia moderator who along with Akhran, is a also an animal rights activist and member of the Animal rights WikiProject. Please be fair to other contributors when censoring articles without good reason. Please don't let emotion get in the way of fact. Kelly2357
Hi Aronoel, the NYT piece isn't a review of the book, so it shouldn't be included in the reception section. [3] SlimVirgin talk| contribs 20:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Quote: Vegan animal rights activists at 30bananas forum have committed to hijacking the Wikipedia page on the China Study (seemingly in cahoots with some of the editors), removing any mention of the most relevant critiques of the book. You can see what tampering has been done on the revision history of the page. To give you an idea of what we are up against check out the comments from a 30 bananas member below:
I am sorry if this request lands in the wrong thread, but please alert all VEGAN Wikipedia editors and admins of this (if you know any)! "Denise Minger" is very likely a large scale underground defamation campaign against Dr.Campbell! No matter if she is a real person or not, this is no "private blogger". I wrote already to Dr.Campbell himself, I hope there will be more awareness of the case. But what is essential is urgent protection and following up on the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study Please do not take this lightly. This is a war somebody is leading on, but it can be stopped by focused and clear approach at the major concentration points (like the Wikipedia). Please consider adding this possibility to your agenda and to support the Wikipedia article on a daily base.
I just come back from the Wikipedia with a small first victory :) I was alerting many (vegan) admins and long term editors, and other people were on the move as well, and finally one of THE major Wikipedia admins, who happens to be vegan, is now watching over the article. ALL the "Denis Minger" blah got removed :) Plus some of the other only blog published, not peer-reviewed and not in the least scientifically backed nonsense too!
References:
Kelly, you've been asked many times to stop adding material from websites, including blogs and lobby groups. Please find reviews (negative or positive) published in reliable newspapers, magazines, journals, or books. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 03:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
This page is nothing short of a scandal. It is so clearly being hijacked by the pro-vegetarian lobby with no allowance for a growing and considerable bulk of contrary evidence. Anyone familiar with the extensive work by Dr Uffe Ravnskov, Gary Taubes and Malcolm Kendrick to name just three, would know that the Fat is Bad argument is about to be completely over-turned. In particular Ravnskov shows conclusively that not only is cholesterol important but is in fact protective and correlated to longevity in the over-55 year olds; but that our species has thrived for tens of thousands of years on animal protein, many cultures exclusively, and we benefit from animal fats in many ways - some vitamins are only fat soluble for instance! Then to openly attack and denigrate the work of Denise Minger who is clearly and demonstrably by her writing statistically very aware and who exposes some of the weak work of Campbell, but is abused in these edits and reviews as someone not to be listened to as she is not a scientist or relevantly qualified is underhand. Play the ball, not the man/woman! If you have doubts about her critique, say so, but to edit out valid and well-argued statistical analysis is unacceptable. Lastly Campbell makes so many unsupported, or weak connections it is hard to know where to start but for now, please recognise this article is blatantly and inexcusably biased. For the record, I have no connections with any food, animal, medical or other lobbying drive other than for the truth and for clearing the fog over cholesterol, diet, statins etc. which is currently leading to millions being prescribed damaging statins for a "raised" cholesterol number when the true cause of cardiovascular disease is increasingly being accepted to be due to inflammation in the artery walls leading to plaque formation (which starts IN the wall and NOT in the flowpath) and that of patients presenting for the first-time with cardiovascular disease, almost exactly 50% have below average, so immediately exposing one fundamental untruth of the lipid hypothesis: that serum cholesterol levels are correlated to heart disease. To disallow reputable blogs by reputable qualified scientists such as Dr Mary Enid of Weston Price Foundation, or the many qualified and medical scientific contributors at THINCS.ORG is to use a Wikipedia rule in an unintended way: yes arbitrary, ill-informed, unsubstantiated sites or sources should be ignored, but Ravnskov, Enid, Kendrick, Taubes and many others one could cite ARE qualified and published and respected. And at least Minger tackles the statistics directly to contrast, challenge and illuminate. As an internet based resource itself, Wikipedia should recognise the growing dominance of web sources of all kinds and not just dismiss them out of hand. For the sake of Wikipedia I urge slimvirgin to demonstrate more objectivity and neutrality: this discussion and the edits (some only suggested by others and not implemented) on the actual page are evidence of deliberate cant against any criticism of the Campbell study. Good science well performed is robust enough to tolerate such criticism and this should be allowed to stand - comments suggesting that any criticism of this valuable book be expunged are evidence of those who do not understand how scientific progress is based upon critiques of hypothesis and experimental validation. Please take this as genuine and sincere concern about the quality of this pages management by an unbiased, uninvolved contributor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RPainter ( talk • contribs) 16:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
This research will never hold up in the laboratory or in-vitro. It's hippy vegan lunacy, like people going crazy about vaccinations. Any ultra low calorie diet will decrease a population's cancer risks. Big deal. Chemotherapy is an elaborate drug-induced way of taxing and wasting-away the body in a war of attrition. Same approach. Any grow-factor-promoting nutrition will effectively increase cancer issues in individuals with uncontrolled cancer cell growth in their body. That doesn't mean the nutrient or food-stuff is a carcinogen. That's basic science: correlation versus causality. There needs to be an entire section in this article dedicated to Criticism, not a minor note at the end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.182.124.123 ( talk) 00:28, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I just saw this new documentary, much of which is about this book, and argues its case. I'm not sure, though, if adding the link to this documentary is acceptable for this article. Once I got in trouble when I tried to add a link that I thought was. So now I learned my lesson to ask on the talk page first. :) Anyway, the link is http://www.forksoverknives.com/about/synopsis/ Thanks. BernieW650 ( talk) 18:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
This is ridiculous that the people managing this entry used their bias in favor of vegetarianism to keep the critique from Dr. Harriet Hall out of here. What a terrible abuse of wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.9.166 ( talk • contribs)
Though I am sympathetic to the author's findings, I have a hard time taking it seriously when there are no serious critiques for me to weigh the evidence. This does not look like objective reporting to me. Eriostemon ( talk) 06:14, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Maybe this Talk page should have an FAQ section at the top explaining why Minger, Hall, etc don't meet WP:RS? -- Aronoel ( talk) 19:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Not including them violates WP:NPOV in the extreme, and WP:COI is huge here. This overrides the minor WP:RS issue over their analysis of the study. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.180.106.231 ( talk) 19:29, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
I do NOT agree with the conclusion Ms. Minger makes (namely that meat and milk are healthy), and for many of the statistically documented reasons elucidated in the comments section of her pages, where posters tear her apart; nonetheless, I would NOT remove her link as a violation of the 'reliable source' policy, since very few people have dared to take issue with this Dr. Campbell's premise, and seeing the dearth of reliable sources, I'd say that her source, since it has many references (incorrect conclusion notwithstanding) is about as 'reliable' as you're gonna get for a 'dissenting' view here. Furthermore, Minger raises one good point that I recall seeing in comments on her blog: namely, it is possible that vegans have healthier lifestyles due to their personality or whatever common cause exists, and that *these* healthy lifestyle habits are the cause of the lower incidence of diseases, not the vegan diet --but even though vegans & vegetarians are healthier as a whole, this is not always the case, as one commenter mentions that the Japanese smoke cigarettes quite a lot and yet Japanese citizens are healthier, lower cancer, longer life-spans, etc., due (we presume) because of their more vegetarian diet. And, I add: Japan is one REAL stressful country, which works their employees with a work ethic second to none. So, the peanut gallery commenting on Minger's blog make valid criticisms of HER work, which equate to "supportive" comments for this book here -and, i would consider looking at the comments sections of her blog and seeing how many well-sourced commentaries -either for or against Dr. Campbell's book exist. They might be just as reliable (if not more so) than Minger's work. 71.101.36.16 ( talk) 09:59, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
An editor recently added that Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Calories extensively criticized Campbell's book, [11] but I can't find even a mention of it. Can anyone else? SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 22:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi again, our sources don't have to be triple PhDs, presidents, and angels (though we're partial to all three). :) Here are the sourcing rules, from our policy, Wikipedia:Verifiability:
So basically you need to find reliable, independently published sources, preferably secondary sources, for anything you want to add. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 16:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Eisfbnore, can you say why you're adding templates to well-formed refs? CITEVAR say not to do that. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 18:59, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
{{harvnb|Campbell|2006|pp=[http://books.google.com/books?id=KgRR12F0RPAC&pg=PA72 72–78]}}
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Eisfbnore
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19:17, 29 August 2011 (UTC)I think there is something seriously wrong going on with regard to this article. It has been put up for deletion and has also been marked as relatively unimportant. This is quite surprising, since the book talks about the most important epidemiological study ever undertaken. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but there is a deeper issue here of sinister interests manipulating Wikipedia articles. In particular, in the case of this article, Wikipedia is highly vulnerable to sophisticated manipulation by the pharmaceutical industry and the meat industry. Such anti-vegetarian economic interests may be subtly suppressing this article. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 21:52, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Milk proteins are broken down to amino acids during digestion, and these are the same as for any other protein. Until there is a convincing explanation of why milk proteins are toxic (which seems a priori extremely unlikely), one must regard some of the "China Diet" claims with suspicion. Paulhummerman ( talk) 13:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi דין נוזאור, can you say why you keep removing or wanting to add commentary to what this source said about the study? SlimVirgin (talk) 20:32, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
דין נוזאור ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:51, 20 March 2012 (UTC).
Hi Bsr969, could you say which aspect of the book you'd like your edits to highlight? [12] [13] [14] As things stand, it's not entirely clear. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 15:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
this article does a good job of summarizing the information in the book. it does however do a bad job at 'showing both sides of the issue'. all criticism is discounted as 'coming from people who have an agenda'.
surely some reputable source will have pointed out that for all the supposedly healthy effects of the chinese diet the chinese actually LIVE SHORTER than these o-so-unhealthy westerners (and japanese) with all their meat and fish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
or that a lot of the found results do not actually show a better health and higher life-expectancy (as measured by number of people dying), but rather measure some hormones or such and deduce from that that the subject will probably have a higher life-expectancy. Selena1981 ( talk) 00:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
If we are going to keep this section, then we should keep this section brief. I have shortened this section and edited so it is less inflammatory and more consistant with Wikipedia's policy on NPOV In general, when editing a Wikipedia article about books, we shouldn't include a huge number of quotes and it shouldn't reprint every point the author makes. This entire Wikipedia page is far too long. Take a look at any other non-fiction book like The World Without Us. The summary of that book is only six paragraphs long and only covers the main points of the book. In relation to this point(i.e.industry backing scientific studies on nutrition), then this point is not a main point of the book. It's not even a well sourced point. I would prefer not including this point, but for the purposes of compromise, I have shortened the section to the main points.
Wikipedia is not a place for soapboxing and these quotes are inflammatory. More importantly, when you read the pages where the quotes come from, the book doesn't support the statements that are made. There are other Wikipedia pages that discuss veganism. If you want to ensure the issue of industry backed scientific studies on nutrition is in a Wikipedia page, please consider editing other pages that better support this point with better evidence. DivaNtrainin ( talk) 04:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
I read the following sentence several times; it still makes no sense:
The part that says "with a statistical significance level equal to or exceeding 99.9% certainty" simply means that the researchers were pretty sure: pretty sure the person had blood cholesterol. But everyone has blood cholesterol. I say that with a statistical significance of 100% certainty. Sooo... apart from pointing out that people in general are more likely to contract Western diseases than, say, rocks, what was actually intended here? Fuzzypeg ★ 14:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The study included a comparison of the prevalence of Western diseases ... in each county, using 1973-75 death rates. ... [It] found that one of the strongest predictors of Western diseases on a county level in 1973-75 was the fact that different people ten years later had blood cholesterol with a statistical significance level equal to or exceeding 99.9 percent certainty. The study linked lower blood cholesterol levels to lower rates of heart disease and cancer. As blood cholesterol levels decreased from 170 mg/dl to 90 mg/dl, cancers of the liver, rectum, colon, lung, breast, leukemia, brain, stomach and esophagus (throat) decreased.
Why is the reception section so heavily biased in favour of the book? There is no criticism to balance the opinion. Denise Minger's statistical analysis should be added here. Someone do that, please. 121.74.155.219 ( talk) 05:20, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
The authors conclude that people who eat a plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding animal products such as beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese, and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates
There is no evidence, and plenty of evidence to the contrary, that fish belongs on that list. And there's nothing in this article that indicates how the authors drew their conclusions from the study or that the conclusions are warranted by the gathered evidence. -- 68.111.35.169 ( talk) 02:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
There is evidence that fish is not a health-promoting food. See http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/fish/ -- Calclements ( talk) 22:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I reviewed this today and made a bunch of changes. First, sorry for my first edit on the Willet/Hu thing.. i missed the boat that they were responding to a critique by Campbell of their earlier study. Fixed that now. But the description of Willett's response was just off - the content in our article made it seem like Willet was dead opposed to Campbell and that Willet flip-flopped; neither is borne out by the sources. There were 2 reviews of the China Study book by non-notable reviewers who were also non-expert in nutrition which I deleted. Strange choices. Added 2 recent reviews that cite China Study papers. Happy to discuss. Jytdog ( talk) 01:43, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for talking! Jytdog ( talk) 16:17, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
This is not a real conversation. I'll work on other things! Jytdog ( talk) 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know how to remove the 'reliable, independent, third-party sources' needed tag/ i think i have addressed this need in recent posts. Not sure why fish follows this post?? :o) TonyClarke ( talk) 18:44, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
There is a remark about very high stomach cancer rates in China. That may be explained (or at least this may be a clue) by the fact that seemingly pickled food is a risk for gastric cancer, and that pickled foods are part of chinese culture (it's to be found how much pickled food the China Study participants ate compared to other parts of the world) (I read about this possible connection in PlantPositive article about China Study, an article I would recommend for these interested to collect different point of views on China Study, the guy at PlantPositive seems pretty eager to find The Truth).
I am puzzled at the difference of this article to the German Wikipedia article [15], which contains several critical mentions of misleading use of statistics. The English version here only seems to contain two brief critical views. The amount of contradiction between this article and the German one is too much: something seems wrong. -- Theosch ( talk) 09:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)