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I think there should be a distinction between those who were killed. and those who were deported. BTW, on many occasions those deportations actually saved the lives of their victims, especially when they were Jewish, that otherwise could have been killed by the Nazi who invaded these areas on 1941.
--- I don't know whether there is any reliable data on how ratio dead/survivors. And deported usually were not _saved_. Those who leave Kresy for seeking job etc were. --sozpen
This entry is all but unintelligible to the average non-Polish reader without a map. Remember, George W. Bush couldn't find Slovenia on the globe... -- Wetman 05:57, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Would not the name Territories of the Second Polish Republic annexed by the Soviet Union be less amibiguous? The current name is more ambiguous as it may read either that these were territories of Poland (correct) or that these were the territories mostly populated by Poles (incorrect). -- Irpen 16:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
How about "Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union". Also complemented by "Territories annexed by Poland" for what happened following the WW1? -- Irpen 19:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Which territories do you mean? They needed to be "of Poland" in the "beforemath" of the WW1. -- Irpen 20:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Among the population of Eastern territories were circa 38% Poles, 37 % Ukrainians, 14,5 % Belarussians, 8,4 % Jewish, 0,9 % Russians and 0,6 % Germans"
If this is based on the census of the 1930s based on "mother tongue", then it is not reliable. This census listed 6 million listed as Ukrainian, Belorussian, "Ruthenian", and "Local". Yet, it also listed 7 million as having belonged to Orthodox and Uniate religions which were exclusively composed of the East Slavic groups. The Polish regime tried intentionally to mask the presence of minorities as Joseph Rothschild's volume on East-Central Europe demonstrates. The Warsaw regime claimed there were 800,000 Germans in the census while the German government put the number of Germans at 1.5 million. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.127.36.66 ( talk) 20:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC).
Is Bialystok part of West Ukraine ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Porar ( talk • contribs) 06:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
No. Bandurist ( talk) 18:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
While virtually all Uniates and Orthodox Christians were Ukrainian or Belorussian, a sizable minority of Belorussians were also Catholics, further lowering the percentage of Poles in these areas. In the early 1990s, figures for the Catholic population in Belarus ranged from 8 percent to 20 percent. [1]'
The population by religious affiliation does not tell the complete story. Up to 20% of Belorussians are Catholics, further lowering the number of Poles in the areas liberated by Soviet Ukraine and Belorussia. Poles must have been <30% of the population. Catu 08 June 2007, 00:17 (UTC)
It is relevant because it conforms to the fact that a sizable minority of Belorussians are Catholics which was not represented in the tainted Polish demographics. Since the Polish demographics fail to represent the data and because Soviet demographics did not focus on religion, the only option remaining is an estimate of the percent of Catholics on Belorussia from the early 1990s. Catu 08 June 2007, 00:50 (UTC)
Woogie10w 23:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The article was moved from Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union to Soviet annexations of Polish territories under a claim "More accurate meaning. These is a difference in meaning becdause of the word order in English". Is it really better? I don't see a difference, and hence I'd prefer the article to stay under the older name. PS. Neither name seems to be POVed or such, so this is simply a style issue.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union: implies in English that the territories annexed by the Soviet Union were Polish. The word order lays emphasis on the Polishness of these territories. The territories were administrated by Poland in the interbellum, but were not ethnically Polish. This word order has a specific POV. Soviet annexations of Polish territories: emphasizes the Soviet annexation of the said territories, which is what the article is specifically about. If you do not see a difference, then you would not oppose the change. Bandurist ( talk) 20:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Mosedschurte ( talk) 01:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)"At the end of World War II the Soviet Army occupied these eastern territories, and the Soviet Union annexed the northern part of East Prussia including Konigsberg, which became Kalningrad. It also annexed the eastern portion of Poland"
--Peter E. Quint, "The imperfect union: constitutional structures of German unification", Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691086567
"the Soviets would not tolerate any Polish authority behind their lines, and even less so in the regions they had decided to annex."
--Pierre de Senarclens, "Yalta", Transaction Publishers, 1988, ISBN 0887381529
"After liberation by the Red Army in 1945, some five million Germans were ethnically cleanse from what had been East Prussia (which was given to Poland) and parts of Silesia, which much of the same happened to Poles in the eastern part of Poland (annexed by the Soviet Union)."
--Cathal J. Nolan, "The Greenwood Encyclopedia of International Relations: M-R", Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, ISBN 0313323828
"Elsewhere in Europe, the Soviets annexed a wide strip of land from eastern Poland, adding it to Belarus and Ukraine."
--Saul Bernard Cohen, Geopolitics of the world system, Rowman & Littlefield, 2003, ISBN 0847699072
"At Yalta, Stalin agreed to permit a broadening of the Lublin government by addint to it respresentatives of the London Poles. The Polish government continued to be dominated by Communists, however, and the non-Communist representatives found themselves outnumbered and outmaneuvered. Stalin also promised to permit free elections in Poland, but they were never held. While the Soviets annexed eastern Poland, the Poles were to be compensated by territory taken from Germany."
--Birdsall S. Viault, "Schaum's Outline of Modern European History", McGraw-Hill Professional, 1990, ISBN 0070674531
I agree that technically the word "annexation" may not be perfect. Yet it has been used by quite a few sources. However, I am not sure if incorporation is any better? Perhaps the best solution is to add a well referenced sentence/note/section/whatever that would discuss the issue of what terms are used by scholars and why in more detail. The title might be slightly inaccurate, but I don't think any other title would be better, hence I see no reason for the tag. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Chelentano, that "annexation" is not a good word in this case. The term "annexation" would be valid under two conditions:
Incorporation or Reunification would be a better word for this article. "Reunification" is my preference. Teotocopulos ( talk) 18:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the legal incorporation of some territory into another geo-political entity (either adjacent or non-contiguous). Usually, it is implied that the territory and population being annexed is the smaller, more peripheral, and weaker of the two merging entities. It can also imply a certain measure of coercion, expansionism or unilateralism on the part of the stronger of the merging entities. Because of this, more positive terms like political union or reunification are sometimes preferred.
Annexation differs from cession and amalgamation, because unlike cession where territory is given or sold through treaty, or amalgamation where both sides are asked if they agree with the merge, annexation is a unilateral act where territory is seized and held by one state and made legitimate by the recognition of the international community.[1]
During World War II the use of annexation deprived whole populations of the safeguards provided by international laws governing military occupations. Changes were introduced to international law through the Fourth Geneva Convention that makes it much more difficult for a state to bypass international law through the use of annexation.[2] Bandurist ( talk) 19:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Chelentano, i don't understand what do you mean when you wrote that by mentionining Lwow and Wilno i'm trying to "push revanchist agenda." What the hell are you talking about? I simply pointed out that no legitimate Polish government would have ever dreamed of giving away its second biggest city same as any US government would not give away Los Angeles. Do you agree with that yes or no? The simple truth is that those teritorial changes were orkestrated by Staling who wanted to grab Polish territory and if any politician of that period in Poland would have opposed Stalin's plans he'd be either deported to Siberia or worse thrown in prison, trialed in front of a kangaroo court and shot in the head. I don't understand why are talking about Lwow's history either, it has nothing to do with this article. But it is interesting that you felt the need to mention it. Loosmark ( talk) 21:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
-- Encyclopedia of the United Nations and international agreements ISBN-10: 0415939208 "The reunification of the Ukrainian lands after WWII brought together left-bank Ukraine and western Ukraine"
-- The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition , 2008 ISBN-10: 0787650153 "The 1939 Nazi-Soviet partition of Poland reunified the Ukraine. In 1940, it also acquired Northern Bukovina and part of Bessarabia from Romania."
-- Ukraine - History & Background
"The reunification of Ukraine in 1939 resulted in the establishment of new schools, promotion of literacy for adults, and instruction in the native tongue."
education.stateuniversity.com/pages/1594/Ukraine-HISTORY-BACKGROUND.html
-- Russia, Ukraine, and the Breakup of the Soviet Union (Paperback) ISBN-10: 0817995420
the unification of Ukraine in 1939–1945, and the Soviet period failing to find a resolution
-- Stephen Borsody: The Hungarians: A Divided Nation
"The reunification of the Transcarpathian Ukraine with the Soviet Ukraine signified the triumph of historical justice." ISBN-10: 0936586125
-- The Oxford Companion to World War II by I. C. B. Dear and M. R. D. Foot ISBN-10: 019280670X
"After western Ukraine's incorporation into the USSR, and a brief period of..."
--01:45, 21 April 2009 (UTC) Chelentano ( talk)
Chelentano your examples are just plain stupid, for example Japan never agreed to the annexation of the Kurils simply because it was occupied by the Americans and there was never a soviet soldier on the Japanese home islands.
Also when you write stuff like "Polish government has realized that they actually got a good deal getting better developed German lands instead of a less attractive eastern areas" i'm starting to wonder do you even know what are you talking about? Cities like Szczecin or Wroclaw were almost completely devastated by the war, only a retard would trade that for Lwow or Wilno even more so because the teritory Poland got from Germany is considerably smaller than that, it lost to the soviets. It's a no brainer really.
I also have no wish to discuss your rants about Lwow, just briefly it was "established by proto-Ukrainans", so what? Lwow was Polish for centuries and basicaly the city as it looks today was built by Poland (i mean all the historical buildings etc.) Claiming that the Soviet Union had the right to annex Lwow after WW2 is just as stupid as saying that Spain would had the right to annex Los Angeles after WW2, because after all Los Angeles was established by the Spaniards. Loosmark ( talk) 08:13, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Really, annexed is a rather neutral term - and the article does state that "Initially annexed by Poland in a series of wars between 1918 and 1921" referring to those lands, that were historically contested by Poland and Muscovy/Russia since the collapse of the Kievan Rus. With respect, Ko Soi IX ( talk) 17:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
An important consideration, lacking in the above discussion, is that Poland ceased to exist as an entity for 123 years, and that most of the territories in question did not belong to "Poland" for that time period. In the case of the "recovered" territories (most did not belong to "Poland" for around 800 years). The newly established Polish State existed 20 years, and acquired and "annexed" these territories and other neighboring territories (largely through military adventures), as a result of the debacle of WWI and the weaknesses that resulted from that war to Poland's Imperial neighbors. Furthermore, much of the territory in question here was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, that wasn't even Polish to begin with. So maybe "re-annexation" should be examined as an alternative name. Dr. Dan ( talk) 23:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Konieczny, I’ve got two questions for you. First you supported the Piotrowski‘s statement that “Soviet NKVD in Eastern Poland proved far more destructive than Gestapo”. And now you are saying the opposite: now you are saying that Stalin killed 11 times less Polish people vs. Hitler: 500,000 vs. 5,500,000. So then would you agree that the first statement is not true?
Second question. The claim that in 1939-45 Soviets killed 500,000 Polish people is still a very serious accusation. This is a more than Americans killed on the WWII battlefield. Could you please provide reputable online links in support of your number? --
Chelentano (
talk) 00:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Or "Mix of Nationalities in Poland 1931." This appears to be an unusual Encyclopedic entry or reference since it includes the terminology... Data "presumably" taken from the 1931 Polish census. It shows territories that did not belong to Poland in 1931. How then can the information on it be derived from the 1931 Polish census? Dr. Dan ( talk) 02:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I have in my library a "Maket" basicvally a book that was not officially published - It was one of the signature copies for review by the government done before it was "officially" published. It was prepared for publication in 1959 and has a ethnographic map of peoples living in Ukraine based on data from "the beginning of the 20th century" by Yaroslav Poritsky husband of ethnomusicologist Sofia Hrytsa. The map was banned as it showed Ukrainian ethnic regions within current Poland, belorus, and Russia ie rather than within the borders of Ukraine. I can scan it. There are a lot of Polish settlements in Ukrainian territories but tey are small and like small islands, primarilly around more industialised cities. Nothing like the widespreading map on te site. However it is in Ukrainian. Bandurist ( talk) 22:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Jacurek, would you be so kind as to elucidate on what you mean with..."Map does not show Minsk suburbs with dominant Polish population. Scale is misleading to some.--Jacurek" What, in particlar are you trying to say with "Scale is misleading to some"? While you're at it, please give us your opinion on the accuracy of the map concerning Kaunas, since you weighed in on the suburbs of Minsk. Thanks. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
This is accurate map. A picture from a book by Czech archaeologist Lubor Niederle "Slavic Antiquities" (Slovanské starožitnosti), series published between 1902-24. The name can be translated as "Ethnographical map of Slavs". You can see that if there is mixed ethnic composition, it indicated with stripes, but Lvov area, and the whole Galicia has a solid Ukrainian color. Also there is no dominant Polish population in Vilnus nor in suburbs of Minsk. -- Teotocopulos ( talk) 19:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The Czech map is at arms length from the interested parties and has no reason to play favourites between Poland and Eastern Slavs, and yet is sufficiently specialsed to warrent being accurate. Bandurist ( talk) 19:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the fact that the map comes from a supposed neutral source (which by the way is still not 100% sure) doesn't make it by default "certainly excellent", accurate etc.. even if you keep repeating that. We don't know what data and methology did this Czech guy use to make this map. Loosmark ( talk) 21:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes there is a red spot north of Lviv, but do you notice that the large red islands around the cities of Lviv and Ternopil are not visible in the German/Polish map at all. Bandurist ( talk) 16:02, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
It all depends on how the data is presented on the map. One thing the german map clearly shows is that there were a lot of areas with a Polish majority. It also shows that the supposed "certainly excellent" map of the Czech archaeologist is highly innacurate to the point of being completely wrong. Loosmark ( talk) 17:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Most of these maps were made before WW1 so in all probability they are based on German/Prussian and Russian data, both of these empires had all possible interests to keep to Polish numbers as low as possible to prevent any ideas of a future Polish independence. The part about Stalin is garbage unworthy of a reply. Loosmark ( talk) 18:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Nice maps, but all of them are quite obsolete (late 19th/early 20th century), smack from the period of major nationalism biases and state propaganda messing with such publications. And while maps from other countries (ex. UK/US) should be more neutral, the fact that the authors weren't directly influenced by the goverments and biases doesn't mean that they didn't rely on such sources. Unless we can find modern, reliable maps, all such historical maps are at best one side of hardly reliable POV. Perhaps an expert mapmaker could combine all of those into one map (or a series) which would show how they differ. Till then, I am afraid we have little recourse. I have proposed several times that we need tags for inaccurate/biased maps (see here), but my proposals have not generated much interest or support. Perhaps interested editors can help to create and implement such proposals? Further, I'll repeat for the last time: we don't know what sources Zieliński used, the claim about 1931 census is my own speculation, and should not be treated as anything but. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
First of all, I am tired of the crap of people denouncing sources simply based on their ethnic background: "and what makes you think that the map of a "Czech arcaelogist" is THE accurate map?
Loosmark (
talk) 19:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)" and similar has to stop.
Second, in looking at Magocsi's map of ethnic distribution in 1900 (from his Historical Atlas of Central Europe, the best and most recent work available on the subject), it pretty much confirms the Czech map in terms of Polish majority. There's some additional Polish overlap with other ethnic groups to the west, but nothing close to the original Polish version being debated here, which clearly overstates the bounds of (significant) Polish settlement to the point of not being accurate.
PetersV
TALK 19:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Robert Magocsi
Historical Atlas of Central Europe, Revised and Expanded Edition
University of Washington Press, Seattle
ISBN
0-295-98146-6
"Ethnolinguistic distribution, ca. 1900", page 30
I would not feel comfortable scanning and posting without contacting the author first. Anyone interested in the history of Central Europe should get this text, specifically, the second edition, which expands on some of the issues of our day with chapters and maps devoted to topics including: Romania in the 20th century, Ukraine..., Moldova..., and "Poland, Danzig, and Lithuania in the 20th century."
PetersV
TALK 03:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
The map seems interesting and is probably more accurate then any of those we have. Per Jacurek, I am quite surprised about lack of Jews; the map does show mixed areas, and there were cities with dominant Jewish populations, so they should be shown on the map. Białystok, Grodno, Brest, Vilnius and Minsk, just to name some major cities, had a Jewish population that approached or was over 50%. Vilnius, for example, is erroneously shown as split between Poland and Lithuanians. This was the case in the countryside, but the city's population was roughly half Polish and half Jewish, with Lithuanians constituting around 3% at best. Brest seems excluded from the "mixed" population, which is incorrect - even today Brest is one of the major concentrations of the Polish minority in Belarus. And if any population was dominaint in Brest, in was not Belorusians - it was Jews, which constituted over 60% of the poulation: [10]. The map also shows as German some areas which were mixed. Bydgoszcz is shown as German; this article notes that before WWII out of ~120,000 inhabitants, only 10,000 were German (according to German authors), I find it rather unlikely that the population shift would occur so rapidly over 40 years. The area of the Polish Corridor should be shown as mixed territory, same goes for parts of Silesia (Wrocław had a German majority, but Poles were numerous in the countryside - a reverse of the pattern seen East). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
1."The map seems interesting and is probably more accurate then any of those we have"...
2."Vilnius, for example, is erroneously shown as split between Poland and Lithuanians. This was the case in the countryside, but the city's population was roughly half Polish and half Jewish, with Lithuanians constituting around 3% at best."
After reading those "opinions," I think someone needs to re-read the Wikipedia article on the Big Lie, and then the proclamation of the Lithuanian dictator of Poland, published in "Wilno" in 1919. A re-reading of Polonization might also be helpful. The map is "interesting" on the one hand, and "erroneous" on the other hand, and this is truly getting more and more bizarre as time goes on. Dr. Dan ( talk) 02:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Somebody might want to fix that:
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The territories was occupied from Ukraine and Belarus by Poland in 1921, after a war that Poland started in 1919. No other country recognised these territories as polish and that's why the defense pact with France and the UK wasn't applicable to when the USSR entered the territories and gave them back to Ukraine and Belarus. Is it really correct to call these areas parts of Poland? It implies that western Ukraine rightly belongs to Poland. 2A02:AA1:100D:A89F:8C0D:D59C:137C:9BA1 ( talk) 23:08, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
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I think there should be a distinction between those who were killed. and those who were deported. BTW, on many occasions those deportations actually saved the lives of their victims, especially when they were Jewish, that otherwise could have been killed by the Nazi who invaded these areas on 1941.
--- I don't know whether there is any reliable data on how ratio dead/survivors. And deported usually were not _saved_. Those who leave Kresy for seeking job etc were. --sozpen
This entry is all but unintelligible to the average non-Polish reader without a map. Remember, George W. Bush couldn't find Slovenia on the globe... -- Wetman 05:57, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Would not the name Territories of the Second Polish Republic annexed by the Soviet Union be less amibiguous? The current name is more ambiguous as it may read either that these were territories of Poland (correct) or that these were the territories mostly populated by Poles (incorrect). -- Irpen 16:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
How about "Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union". Also complemented by "Territories annexed by Poland" for what happened following the WW1? -- Irpen 19:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Which territories do you mean? They needed to be "of Poland" in the "beforemath" of the WW1. -- Irpen 20:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Among the population of Eastern territories were circa 38% Poles, 37 % Ukrainians, 14,5 % Belarussians, 8,4 % Jewish, 0,9 % Russians and 0,6 % Germans"
If this is based on the census of the 1930s based on "mother tongue", then it is not reliable. This census listed 6 million listed as Ukrainian, Belorussian, "Ruthenian", and "Local". Yet, it also listed 7 million as having belonged to Orthodox and Uniate religions which were exclusively composed of the East Slavic groups. The Polish regime tried intentionally to mask the presence of minorities as Joseph Rothschild's volume on East-Central Europe demonstrates. The Warsaw regime claimed there were 800,000 Germans in the census while the German government put the number of Germans at 1.5 million. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.127.36.66 ( talk) 20:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC).
Is Bialystok part of West Ukraine ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Porar ( talk • contribs) 06:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
No. Bandurist ( talk) 18:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
While virtually all Uniates and Orthodox Christians were Ukrainian or Belorussian, a sizable minority of Belorussians were also Catholics, further lowering the percentage of Poles in these areas. In the early 1990s, figures for the Catholic population in Belarus ranged from 8 percent to 20 percent. [1]'
The population by religious affiliation does not tell the complete story. Up to 20% of Belorussians are Catholics, further lowering the number of Poles in the areas liberated by Soviet Ukraine and Belorussia. Poles must have been <30% of the population. Catu 08 June 2007, 00:17 (UTC)
It is relevant because it conforms to the fact that a sizable minority of Belorussians are Catholics which was not represented in the tainted Polish demographics. Since the Polish demographics fail to represent the data and because Soviet demographics did not focus on religion, the only option remaining is an estimate of the percent of Catholics on Belorussia from the early 1990s. Catu 08 June 2007, 00:50 (UTC)
Woogie10w 23:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The article was moved from Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union to Soviet annexations of Polish territories under a claim "More accurate meaning. These is a difference in meaning becdause of the word order in English". Is it really better? I don't see a difference, and hence I'd prefer the article to stay under the older name. PS. Neither name seems to be POVed or such, so this is simply a style issue.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union: implies in English that the territories annexed by the Soviet Union were Polish. The word order lays emphasis on the Polishness of these territories. The territories were administrated by Poland in the interbellum, but were not ethnically Polish. This word order has a specific POV. Soviet annexations of Polish territories: emphasizes the Soviet annexation of the said territories, which is what the article is specifically about. If you do not see a difference, then you would not oppose the change. Bandurist ( talk) 20:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Mosedschurte ( talk) 01:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)"At the end of World War II the Soviet Army occupied these eastern territories, and the Soviet Union annexed the northern part of East Prussia including Konigsberg, which became Kalningrad. It also annexed the eastern portion of Poland"
--Peter E. Quint, "The imperfect union: constitutional structures of German unification", Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691086567
"the Soviets would not tolerate any Polish authority behind their lines, and even less so in the regions they had decided to annex."
--Pierre de Senarclens, "Yalta", Transaction Publishers, 1988, ISBN 0887381529
"After liberation by the Red Army in 1945, some five million Germans were ethnically cleanse from what had been East Prussia (which was given to Poland) and parts of Silesia, which much of the same happened to Poles in the eastern part of Poland (annexed by the Soviet Union)."
--Cathal J. Nolan, "The Greenwood Encyclopedia of International Relations: M-R", Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, ISBN 0313323828
"Elsewhere in Europe, the Soviets annexed a wide strip of land from eastern Poland, adding it to Belarus and Ukraine."
--Saul Bernard Cohen, Geopolitics of the world system, Rowman & Littlefield, 2003, ISBN 0847699072
"At Yalta, Stalin agreed to permit a broadening of the Lublin government by addint to it respresentatives of the London Poles. The Polish government continued to be dominated by Communists, however, and the non-Communist representatives found themselves outnumbered and outmaneuvered. Stalin also promised to permit free elections in Poland, but they were never held. While the Soviets annexed eastern Poland, the Poles were to be compensated by territory taken from Germany."
--Birdsall S. Viault, "Schaum's Outline of Modern European History", McGraw-Hill Professional, 1990, ISBN 0070674531
I agree that technically the word "annexation" may not be perfect. Yet it has been used by quite a few sources. However, I am not sure if incorporation is any better? Perhaps the best solution is to add a well referenced sentence/note/section/whatever that would discuss the issue of what terms are used by scholars and why in more detail. The title might be slightly inaccurate, but I don't think any other title would be better, hence I see no reason for the tag. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Chelentano, that "annexation" is not a good word in this case. The term "annexation" would be valid under two conditions:
Incorporation or Reunification would be a better word for this article. "Reunification" is my preference. Teotocopulos ( talk) 18:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the legal incorporation of some territory into another geo-political entity (either adjacent or non-contiguous). Usually, it is implied that the territory and population being annexed is the smaller, more peripheral, and weaker of the two merging entities. It can also imply a certain measure of coercion, expansionism or unilateralism on the part of the stronger of the merging entities. Because of this, more positive terms like political union or reunification are sometimes preferred.
Annexation differs from cession and amalgamation, because unlike cession where territory is given or sold through treaty, or amalgamation where both sides are asked if they agree with the merge, annexation is a unilateral act where territory is seized and held by one state and made legitimate by the recognition of the international community.[1]
During World War II the use of annexation deprived whole populations of the safeguards provided by international laws governing military occupations. Changes were introduced to international law through the Fourth Geneva Convention that makes it much more difficult for a state to bypass international law through the use of annexation.[2] Bandurist ( talk) 19:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Chelentano, i don't understand what do you mean when you wrote that by mentionining Lwow and Wilno i'm trying to "push revanchist agenda." What the hell are you talking about? I simply pointed out that no legitimate Polish government would have ever dreamed of giving away its second biggest city same as any US government would not give away Los Angeles. Do you agree with that yes or no? The simple truth is that those teritorial changes were orkestrated by Staling who wanted to grab Polish territory and if any politician of that period in Poland would have opposed Stalin's plans he'd be either deported to Siberia or worse thrown in prison, trialed in front of a kangaroo court and shot in the head. I don't understand why are talking about Lwow's history either, it has nothing to do with this article. But it is interesting that you felt the need to mention it. Loosmark ( talk) 21:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
-- Encyclopedia of the United Nations and international agreements ISBN-10: 0415939208 "The reunification of the Ukrainian lands after WWII brought together left-bank Ukraine and western Ukraine"
-- The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition , 2008 ISBN-10: 0787650153 "The 1939 Nazi-Soviet partition of Poland reunified the Ukraine. In 1940, it also acquired Northern Bukovina and part of Bessarabia from Romania."
-- Ukraine - History & Background
"The reunification of Ukraine in 1939 resulted in the establishment of new schools, promotion of literacy for adults, and instruction in the native tongue."
education.stateuniversity.com/pages/1594/Ukraine-HISTORY-BACKGROUND.html
-- Russia, Ukraine, and the Breakup of the Soviet Union (Paperback) ISBN-10: 0817995420
the unification of Ukraine in 1939–1945, and the Soviet period failing to find a resolution
-- Stephen Borsody: The Hungarians: A Divided Nation
"The reunification of the Transcarpathian Ukraine with the Soviet Ukraine signified the triumph of historical justice." ISBN-10: 0936586125
-- The Oxford Companion to World War II by I. C. B. Dear and M. R. D. Foot ISBN-10: 019280670X
"After western Ukraine's incorporation into the USSR, and a brief period of..."
--01:45, 21 April 2009 (UTC) Chelentano ( talk)
Chelentano your examples are just plain stupid, for example Japan never agreed to the annexation of the Kurils simply because it was occupied by the Americans and there was never a soviet soldier on the Japanese home islands.
Also when you write stuff like "Polish government has realized that they actually got a good deal getting better developed German lands instead of a less attractive eastern areas" i'm starting to wonder do you even know what are you talking about? Cities like Szczecin or Wroclaw were almost completely devastated by the war, only a retard would trade that for Lwow or Wilno even more so because the teritory Poland got from Germany is considerably smaller than that, it lost to the soviets. It's a no brainer really.
I also have no wish to discuss your rants about Lwow, just briefly it was "established by proto-Ukrainans", so what? Lwow was Polish for centuries and basicaly the city as it looks today was built by Poland (i mean all the historical buildings etc.) Claiming that the Soviet Union had the right to annex Lwow after WW2 is just as stupid as saying that Spain would had the right to annex Los Angeles after WW2, because after all Los Angeles was established by the Spaniards. Loosmark ( talk) 08:13, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Really, annexed is a rather neutral term - and the article does state that "Initially annexed by Poland in a series of wars between 1918 and 1921" referring to those lands, that were historically contested by Poland and Muscovy/Russia since the collapse of the Kievan Rus. With respect, Ko Soi IX ( talk) 17:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
An important consideration, lacking in the above discussion, is that Poland ceased to exist as an entity for 123 years, and that most of the territories in question did not belong to "Poland" for that time period. In the case of the "recovered" territories (most did not belong to "Poland" for around 800 years). The newly established Polish State existed 20 years, and acquired and "annexed" these territories and other neighboring territories (largely through military adventures), as a result of the debacle of WWI and the weaknesses that resulted from that war to Poland's Imperial neighbors. Furthermore, much of the territory in question here was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, that wasn't even Polish to begin with. So maybe "re-annexation" should be examined as an alternative name. Dr. Dan ( talk) 23:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Konieczny, I’ve got two questions for you. First you supported the Piotrowski‘s statement that “Soviet NKVD in Eastern Poland proved far more destructive than Gestapo”. And now you are saying the opposite: now you are saying that Stalin killed 11 times less Polish people vs. Hitler: 500,000 vs. 5,500,000. So then would you agree that the first statement is not true?
Second question. The claim that in 1939-45 Soviets killed 500,000 Polish people is still a very serious accusation. This is a more than Americans killed on the WWII battlefield. Could you please provide reputable online links in support of your number? --
Chelentano (
talk) 00:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Or "Mix of Nationalities in Poland 1931." This appears to be an unusual Encyclopedic entry or reference since it includes the terminology... Data "presumably" taken from the 1931 Polish census. It shows territories that did not belong to Poland in 1931. How then can the information on it be derived from the 1931 Polish census? Dr. Dan ( talk) 02:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I have in my library a "Maket" basicvally a book that was not officially published - It was one of the signature copies for review by the government done before it was "officially" published. It was prepared for publication in 1959 and has a ethnographic map of peoples living in Ukraine based on data from "the beginning of the 20th century" by Yaroslav Poritsky husband of ethnomusicologist Sofia Hrytsa. The map was banned as it showed Ukrainian ethnic regions within current Poland, belorus, and Russia ie rather than within the borders of Ukraine. I can scan it. There are a lot of Polish settlements in Ukrainian territories but tey are small and like small islands, primarilly around more industialised cities. Nothing like the widespreading map on te site. However it is in Ukrainian. Bandurist ( talk) 22:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Jacurek, would you be so kind as to elucidate on what you mean with..."Map does not show Minsk suburbs with dominant Polish population. Scale is misleading to some.--Jacurek" What, in particlar are you trying to say with "Scale is misleading to some"? While you're at it, please give us your opinion on the accuracy of the map concerning Kaunas, since you weighed in on the suburbs of Minsk. Thanks. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
This is accurate map. A picture from a book by Czech archaeologist Lubor Niederle "Slavic Antiquities" (Slovanské starožitnosti), series published between 1902-24. The name can be translated as "Ethnographical map of Slavs". You can see that if there is mixed ethnic composition, it indicated with stripes, but Lvov area, and the whole Galicia has a solid Ukrainian color. Also there is no dominant Polish population in Vilnus nor in suburbs of Minsk. -- Teotocopulos ( talk) 19:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The Czech map is at arms length from the interested parties and has no reason to play favourites between Poland and Eastern Slavs, and yet is sufficiently specialsed to warrent being accurate. Bandurist ( talk) 19:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the fact that the map comes from a supposed neutral source (which by the way is still not 100% sure) doesn't make it by default "certainly excellent", accurate etc.. even if you keep repeating that. We don't know what data and methology did this Czech guy use to make this map. Loosmark ( talk) 21:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes there is a red spot north of Lviv, but do you notice that the large red islands around the cities of Lviv and Ternopil are not visible in the German/Polish map at all. Bandurist ( talk) 16:02, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
It all depends on how the data is presented on the map. One thing the german map clearly shows is that there were a lot of areas with a Polish majority. It also shows that the supposed "certainly excellent" map of the Czech archaeologist is highly innacurate to the point of being completely wrong. Loosmark ( talk) 17:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Most of these maps were made before WW1 so in all probability they are based on German/Prussian and Russian data, both of these empires had all possible interests to keep to Polish numbers as low as possible to prevent any ideas of a future Polish independence. The part about Stalin is garbage unworthy of a reply. Loosmark ( talk) 18:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Nice maps, but all of them are quite obsolete (late 19th/early 20th century), smack from the period of major nationalism biases and state propaganda messing with such publications. And while maps from other countries (ex. UK/US) should be more neutral, the fact that the authors weren't directly influenced by the goverments and biases doesn't mean that they didn't rely on such sources. Unless we can find modern, reliable maps, all such historical maps are at best one side of hardly reliable POV. Perhaps an expert mapmaker could combine all of those into one map (or a series) which would show how they differ. Till then, I am afraid we have little recourse. I have proposed several times that we need tags for inaccurate/biased maps (see here), but my proposals have not generated much interest or support. Perhaps interested editors can help to create and implement such proposals? Further, I'll repeat for the last time: we don't know what sources Zieliński used, the claim about 1931 census is my own speculation, and should not be treated as anything but. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
First of all, I am tired of the crap of people denouncing sources simply based on their ethnic background: "and what makes you think that the map of a "Czech arcaelogist" is THE accurate map?
Loosmark (
talk) 19:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)" and similar has to stop.
Second, in looking at Magocsi's map of ethnic distribution in 1900 (from his Historical Atlas of Central Europe, the best and most recent work available on the subject), it pretty much confirms the Czech map in terms of Polish majority. There's some additional Polish overlap with other ethnic groups to the west, but nothing close to the original Polish version being debated here, which clearly overstates the bounds of (significant) Polish settlement to the point of not being accurate.
PetersV
TALK 19:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Robert Magocsi
Historical Atlas of Central Europe, Revised and Expanded Edition
University of Washington Press, Seattle
ISBN
0-295-98146-6
"Ethnolinguistic distribution, ca. 1900", page 30
I would not feel comfortable scanning and posting without contacting the author first. Anyone interested in the history of Central Europe should get this text, specifically, the second edition, which expands on some of the issues of our day with chapters and maps devoted to topics including: Romania in the 20th century, Ukraine..., Moldova..., and "Poland, Danzig, and Lithuania in the 20th century."
PetersV
TALK 03:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
The map seems interesting and is probably more accurate then any of those we have. Per Jacurek, I am quite surprised about lack of Jews; the map does show mixed areas, and there were cities with dominant Jewish populations, so they should be shown on the map. Białystok, Grodno, Brest, Vilnius and Minsk, just to name some major cities, had a Jewish population that approached or was over 50%. Vilnius, for example, is erroneously shown as split between Poland and Lithuanians. This was the case in the countryside, but the city's population was roughly half Polish and half Jewish, with Lithuanians constituting around 3% at best. Brest seems excluded from the "mixed" population, which is incorrect - even today Brest is one of the major concentrations of the Polish minority in Belarus. And if any population was dominaint in Brest, in was not Belorusians - it was Jews, which constituted over 60% of the poulation: [10]. The map also shows as German some areas which were mixed. Bydgoszcz is shown as German; this article notes that before WWII out of ~120,000 inhabitants, only 10,000 were German (according to German authors), I find it rather unlikely that the population shift would occur so rapidly over 40 years. The area of the Polish Corridor should be shown as mixed territory, same goes for parts of Silesia (Wrocław had a German majority, but Poles were numerous in the countryside - a reverse of the pattern seen East). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
1."The map seems interesting and is probably more accurate then any of those we have"...
2."Vilnius, for example, is erroneously shown as split between Poland and Lithuanians. This was the case in the countryside, but the city's population was roughly half Polish and half Jewish, with Lithuanians constituting around 3% at best."
After reading those "opinions," I think someone needs to re-read the Wikipedia article on the Big Lie, and then the proclamation of the Lithuanian dictator of Poland, published in "Wilno" in 1919. A re-reading of Polonization might also be helpful. The map is "interesting" on the one hand, and "erroneous" on the other hand, and this is truly getting more and more bizarre as time goes on. Dr. Dan ( talk) 02:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Somebody might want to fix that:
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The territories was occupied from Ukraine and Belarus by Poland in 1921, after a war that Poland started in 1919. No other country recognised these territories as polish and that's why the defense pact with France and the UK wasn't applicable to when the USSR entered the territories and gave them back to Ukraine and Belarus. Is it really correct to call these areas parts of Poland? It implies that western Ukraine rightly belongs to Poland. 2A02:AA1:100D:A89F:8C0D:D59C:137C:9BA1 ( talk) 23:08, 6 August 2023 (UTC)