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(moved from Talk: Tawa)
Text from Tawa article to be merged here:
A tawa is a large, disclike metal utensil, slightly concave and usually made from cast iron or aluminium. Commonly used in Indian cuisine, especially for a whole class of foods called tawa fry or tawa masala. Also used for chaap, pao bhaaji, chaat, tawa parathas, etc.
-- LesleyW 12:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
A tawa or tawa is a large, flat or gently curved griddle, made from cast iron, steel or aluminium. It is used in Indian cuisine to prepare several kinds of roti, including chapatis and parathas, chaap, pao bhaaji, chaat, tawa parathas, etc.
It is also used for a class of foods known as tawa fry or tawa masala.
-- LesleyW 01:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Pardon me. I have expanded the article by including images and text re flatbread griddles in other cultures. May I suggest going farther? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, so I think it is good to gather in one article information about flatbread griddles from around the world, rather than creating many stub articles. But maybe the title should be Griddle; currently that page is a redirect to a list of cookware. -- Una Smith ( talk) 04:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
In Bulgaria, a tava is always made of metal, but may not necessarily be round, some smaller ones are rectangular. The bigger, round ones are also called тепсия (tepsiya) It is used only for baking. The sides are high, bigger ones ~7cm, smaller ones ~5cm. They're not convex though, they go straight up, there is very little curving where they start going up. Сач/сачѐ (Sach/sache) is a relatively small, as big as a small tava, round flat clay plate, on which meat and vegetables are placed to cook on the table itself, and fat is not used. The small tava and the sach are about the size of a big frying pan, most big tava are about twice as wide. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 10:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
'Frying pan, a similar utensil used in Scotland and elsewhere'
Why is Scotland using a frying pan singled out here? As far as I can tell, they're as cross-cultural as it gets. The Scots have a reputation for deep-frying things, but you don't do that in a fryin pan usually... 2001:630:212:238:7254:D2FF:FEC5:1EF6 ( talk) 15:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
(Started in a storm of justified deep consternation by Vwalvekar ( talk) on 26 May 2015.)
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I don't see any reliable sources for the inclusion of saj in this article, only some unsourced content that I removed. Which sources should I be looking at for this? Is the saj term ever used to refer to a flat cooking surface? Spudlace ( talk) 10:58, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Spudlace: Article currently says they are made of "spun metal" or "cast metal". It would be nice to be more precise about which metals are commonly used. As I understand it, the most common materials are spun sheet steel and cast iron and aluminum, though copper is sometimes used. Do you have different information? -- Macrakis ( talk) 15:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Folks, this article has been written with as much enthusiasm as it has no encyclopedic thinking behind it.
There are lots of metal cooking utensils, frying pans, metal bread baking devices, as well as flat trays in the world. An encyclopedia is there to sort them out, not to mix them up.
First one needs definitions. What is a TAVA? Separately, what is a SAJ? Is there any connection between the two? How did they evolve and spread - both as objects, and as terms? Once there are answers to these basic questions, we can take it from there. The current meaning(s) in various languages are the result of long processes of passing on the concept/technology/object along with its name(s), and it's only normal that they evolved and ended up looking in many different ways (the objects), and meaning different things (the terms). In the lead I even find the mix of the two into one term, "saj tava", which is either a pleonasm, or the local result somewhere of the two terms evolving to mean 2 different things which can be combined. You can't just drop this on people before you've 1. understood it, and then 2. explained it.
I suggest to look at the "usual suspects": Persian and Arabic, often with Mesopotamian roots, common or not; and the Indian subcontinent before the Mughal takeover.
All the Balkanic variations of "tava" have Ottoman Turkish origins, so they don't matter much at this level. Where did the Turks get the concept & the word from?
As it is now, the article is nothing but a classical mixed güveç dish, a stew with meat, potatoes, veggies, spices,... Bon appetit! Arminden ( talk) 15:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
In Azerbaijan, the word tava is used for all sorts of pans. Saj on the other had, is a particular type of frying pan. -- Мурад 97 ( talk) 22:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
The article seemingly was better in the past. , quoting (an older incarnation of) the Wiki artticle, correctly and concisely states that:
A tava(h), tawa(h), saj, or sac is a large, flat or convex disc-shaped griddle (UK frying pan) made from metal, usually sheet iron, cast iron, sheet steel or aluminium. It is used in South, Central, and West Asia for cooking a variety of flatbreads and as a griddle for meat. It also sometimes refers to ceramic griddles.
In West Asia, tava/saj are invariably convex, while in South Asia, both flat and convex versions are found. ( [1])
It's sad to see how we overcooked the article, going from good to bad. Only the "ceramic griddles" bit is unnecessary and I'm glad it's out. Concise, takes into consideration BE/AE variations, articulate - as it should be! Back to the future, please. Arminden ( talk) 11:37, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
Like always when an article's scope is overstretched, as shown by the quasi-impossibility of covering the entire content with a simple title and a concise definition in the lead, it would be better to consider separating the elements into different articles, with a common, "umbrella" article titled in a more general fashion along the lines of "traditional frying pans and griddles" dealing with the larger category & the common traits, like possibly the development history. If not done, the article becomes an "overcooked wok dish", with disparate utensils boiled together to a mushy, shapeless pulp where anything and its opposite can be said, because it'd fit at least one stray variation somewhere.
Frying pan, tray, bread baking spherical dome, flat, concave, convex, with handle, without... A bit too wide a range to be one thing, no matter how versatile.
As a user, I'm leaving the page confused as to what the hell this really is all about, what's a tawa, what's a tava, what's a saj? And that's a poor mark for any encyclopedia article. Arminden ( talk) 16:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
Where do the 2 words originate from? What is the original meaning in the original languages?
Everything we have on the Turkish meaning of 'tava', from which everything concerning the Balkans is derived, hinges on a single, unreliable, unsourced 2011 (!) edit. If we find out that the origin of the word is in Turkish, rather than Persian, we have everything built on shaky feet. Arminden ( talk) 20:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
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(moved from Talk: Tawa)
Text from Tawa article to be merged here:
A tawa is a large, disclike metal utensil, slightly concave and usually made from cast iron or aluminium. Commonly used in Indian cuisine, especially for a whole class of foods called tawa fry or tawa masala. Also used for chaap, pao bhaaji, chaat, tawa parathas, etc.
-- LesleyW 12:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
A tawa or tawa is a large, flat or gently curved griddle, made from cast iron, steel or aluminium. It is used in Indian cuisine to prepare several kinds of roti, including chapatis and parathas, chaap, pao bhaaji, chaat, tawa parathas, etc.
It is also used for a class of foods known as tawa fry or tawa masala.
-- LesleyW 01:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Pardon me. I have expanded the article by including images and text re flatbread griddles in other cultures. May I suggest going farther? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, so I think it is good to gather in one article information about flatbread griddles from around the world, rather than creating many stub articles. But maybe the title should be Griddle; currently that page is a redirect to a list of cookware. -- Una Smith ( talk) 04:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
In Bulgaria, a tava is always made of metal, but may not necessarily be round, some smaller ones are rectangular. The bigger, round ones are also called тепсия (tepsiya) It is used only for baking. The sides are high, bigger ones ~7cm, smaller ones ~5cm. They're not convex though, they go straight up, there is very little curving where they start going up. Сач/сачѐ (Sach/sache) is a relatively small, as big as a small tava, round flat clay plate, on which meat and vegetables are placed to cook on the table itself, and fat is not used. The small tava and the sach are about the size of a big frying pan, most big tava are about twice as wide. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 10:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
'Frying pan, a similar utensil used in Scotland and elsewhere'
Why is Scotland using a frying pan singled out here? As far as I can tell, they're as cross-cultural as it gets. The Scots have a reputation for deep-frying things, but you don't do that in a fryin pan usually... 2001:630:212:238:7254:D2FF:FEC5:1EF6 ( talk) 15:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
(Started in a storm of justified deep consternation by Vwalvekar ( talk) on 26 May 2015.)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Tava. Please take a moment to review
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:08, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Tava. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:36, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
I don't see any reliable sources for the inclusion of saj in this article, only some unsourced content that I removed. Which sources should I be looking at for this? Is the saj term ever used to refer to a flat cooking surface? Spudlace ( talk) 10:58, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Spudlace: Article currently says they are made of "spun metal" or "cast metal". It would be nice to be more precise about which metals are commonly used. As I understand it, the most common materials are spun sheet steel and cast iron and aluminum, though copper is sometimes used. Do you have different information? -- Macrakis ( talk) 15:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Folks, this article has been written with as much enthusiasm as it has no encyclopedic thinking behind it.
There are lots of metal cooking utensils, frying pans, metal bread baking devices, as well as flat trays in the world. An encyclopedia is there to sort them out, not to mix them up.
First one needs definitions. What is a TAVA? Separately, what is a SAJ? Is there any connection between the two? How did they evolve and spread - both as objects, and as terms? Once there are answers to these basic questions, we can take it from there. The current meaning(s) in various languages are the result of long processes of passing on the concept/technology/object along with its name(s), and it's only normal that they evolved and ended up looking in many different ways (the objects), and meaning different things (the terms). In the lead I even find the mix of the two into one term, "saj tava", which is either a pleonasm, or the local result somewhere of the two terms evolving to mean 2 different things which can be combined. You can't just drop this on people before you've 1. understood it, and then 2. explained it.
I suggest to look at the "usual suspects": Persian and Arabic, often with Mesopotamian roots, common or not; and the Indian subcontinent before the Mughal takeover.
All the Balkanic variations of "tava" have Ottoman Turkish origins, so they don't matter much at this level. Where did the Turks get the concept & the word from?
As it is now, the article is nothing but a classical mixed güveç dish, a stew with meat, potatoes, veggies, spices,... Bon appetit! Arminden ( talk) 15:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
In Azerbaijan, the word tava is used for all sorts of pans. Saj on the other had, is a particular type of frying pan. -- Мурад 97 ( talk) 22:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
The article seemingly was better in the past. , quoting (an older incarnation of) the Wiki artticle, correctly and concisely states that:
A tava(h), tawa(h), saj, or sac is a large, flat or convex disc-shaped griddle (UK frying pan) made from metal, usually sheet iron, cast iron, sheet steel or aluminium. It is used in South, Central, and West Asia for cooking a variety of flatbreads and as a griddle for meat. It also sometimes refers to ceramic griddles.
In West Asia, tava/saj are invariably convex, while in South Asia, both flat and convex versions are found. ( [1])
It's sad to see how we overcooked the article, going from good to bad. Only the "ceramic griddles" bit is unnecessary and I'm glad it's out. Concise, takes into consideration BE/AE variations, articulate - as it should be! Back to the future, please. Arminden ( talk) 11:37, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
Like always when an article's scope is overstretched, as shown by the quasi-impossibility of covering the entire content with a simple title and a concise definition in the lead, it would be better to consider separating the elements into different articles, with a common, "umbrella" article titled in a more general fashion along the lines of "traditional frying pans and griddles" dealing with the larger category & the common traits, like possibly the development history. If not done, the article becomes an "overcooked wok dish", with disparate utensils boiled together to a mushy, shapeless pulp where anything and its opposite can be said, because it'd fit at least one stray variation somewhere.
Frying pan, tray, bread baking spherical dome, flat, concave, convex, with handle, without... A bit too wide a range to be one thing, no matter how versatile.
As a user, I'm leaving the page confused as to what the hell this really is all about, what's a tawa, what's a tava, what's a saj? And that's a poor mark for any encyclopedia article. Arminden ( talk) 16:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
Where do the 2 words originate from? What is the original meaning in the original languages?
Everything we have on the Turkish meaning of 'tava', from which everything concerning the Balkans is derived, hinges on a single, unreliable, unsourced 2011 (!) edit. If we find out that the origin of the word is in Turkish, rather than Persian, we have everything built on shaky feet. Arminden ( talk) 20:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)