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This article was selected as the article for improvement on 28 October 2013 for a period of one week. |
Steam kebab was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 February 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Kebab. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Should not thousands separators be written according to ISO-Standard? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.64.113.107 ( talk) 00:01, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
Halbared, you've twice now removed "outside of North America" from the second paragraph. That leaves a statement that isn't accurate and doesn't reflect the sources or reality. In the UK, Ireland, Australia, etc., people usually call a sandwich/wrap with meat from a vertical rotisserie literally "a kebab", e.g. "I'd like a kebab please", or "we stopped for a kebab after the pub". This usage is essentially unknown in the US and Canada, where it was popularized mainly by Greek immigrants. There, the common name overwhelmingly is "a gyro", (sometimes "a donair" in Canada) not "a kebab". This is common knowledge and easily verified, I added a citation and there are many more. Please stop changing it to imply that in North America a common name for gyros/shawarma/doner is "a kebab".
The first source, "Language and Food", says:
Kabab/Kebab, most likely a word of Arabic derivation, is now ubiquitous, not only in the Middle East but worldwide, to be found on every high street in Western cities. The ‘default’ kebab is cubes of meat on a skewer, the shish kebab or shashlik of international cookery. [...discussion of its presence in West and South Asia...] The ubiquitous kebab of our time is döner, rotating vertical skewers of which are to be found in profusion in every city in the Middle East and Europe. Döner is a Turkish word indicating turning or rotation. In the Levant (and in Arab and Israeli dispensers inEurope)it is called shwarma... [1]
First, note that Zubaida does not say that the doner is more ubiquitous than the cubes of meat on a skewer type, which in a global context it certainly is not. In the first sentence, ubiquitous refers to all types of kebab. The shish kebab type had spread worldwide much earlier, measured in centuries; it's not until "our time" (i.e. since the 1970s) that the doner has also become ubiquitous. Secondly, the sentence describing doner as ubiquitous goes on to say "in every city in the Middle East and Europe" - i.e., outside of North America. He doesn't mention the situation there, nor gyros.
In the second source, Marks says:
Kebab denotes an array of Middle Eastern grilled or broiled meat dishes; in America, it typically refers to shish kebab, while in Europe it more commonly indicates doner kebab (shawarma)... [2]
That's a very clear statement. It also doesn't mention gyros, but that's the reason. It does support the idea that - outside of North America - these days arguably "a kebab" more often means a doner than a shish kebab. However, he refers to Europe in general, including e.g. Austria, so if we want to make a statement that In most English-speaking countries, as the paragraph begins, the sense of "a kebab" as doner is demonstrably more common than the sense as shish kebab, we would need a better source. I think it's not really worth the effort, and is not necessary to quantify which sense is more common, at least not in the lead; the current wording suffices. -- IamNotU ( talk) 13:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
References
I fixed a grammar error on this page citing the region of origin. The previous sentence didn’t make as much sense so I fixed it so the reader can understand it more clearly. Reinhearted ( talk) 20:33, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
How can something be “originating in Middle Eastern cuisines” this is not a region or state but rather a culture of food. The proper pronunciation would be “that originated in the Middle East”. As described in the History section, the basic techniques of cooking meat on a stick or skewer originated in Africa at least half a million years ago and predates the existence of modern humans. So it's not really accurate to say that it originated in the Middle East. On the other hand, the particular styles and recipes of the broader range of dishes we now call kebabs, beyond simple meat-on-a-stick, mainly arose in Persian and, later, Ottoman cuisines. I don't see that there is any grammatical problem in describing something as originating in a certain culture rather than a region or state. It's been this way for about three years, and nobody has complained. It also allows us to link to Middle Eastern cuisine, which is a more likely destination for readers of this article, who probably already know what the Middle East is. -- IamNotU ( talk) 22:11, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The article states that “Kebab is a style of meat with their origins in Middle Eastern Cuisines” clearly not referring to the the basic meat style that originated in Africa. That claim is misleading and irrelevant to say the least Reinhearted ( talk) 19:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]], with their origins in [[Middle Eastern cuisine]].
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]] that originated in the [[Middle Eastern cusine|Middle East]].
Macrakis, I noticed your edit:
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]] in [[Middle Eastern cuisine]].
which Reinhearted has also reverted to their version. It seems Reinhearted is concerned that we define the geographical origin of kebabs, as a region or state, in the first sentence. I prefer the stable version. Yours is pretty good, I would just say that at least some kebabs, e.g. doner kebab and shish kebab, have broken out from Middle Eastern cuisine and really have become global, so that's why I like "origins in Middle Eastern cuisine". I'm not so attached to "origins", could maybe be "stemming from" or something, if it's really necessary to change it. -- IamNotU ( talk) 23:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
diff A tenth-century Baghdadi cookbook mentions kebab, but that does not place its origin in Baghdad at that time. The dish had already been in existence for millennia, if the Akrotiri firedogs are credible evidence.
The page history shows my edit summary removed, as well as the previous editor's ID. I don't see anything in the logs about admin oversight. What's going on there? Just plain Bill ( talk) 12:23, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
commonly acknowlegedthat Baghdad is the origin of kebab, then it should be possible to source it with reliable sources. True, "Middle East" is not a country, but it is a geographical area that is the closest we can pin down the origin of kebab, unless sources tell us otherwise. Now stop edit warring and start providing sources. -- T*U ( talk) 08:57, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
It used to say “Country of origin”.Not in this article's infobox it didn't. The infobox template was changed thirteen years ago to show "Place of origin" explicitly to avoid difficulties with dishes whose origin is regional, not limited to a single country. That infobox appeared in this article ten years ago, showing "Place of origin".
Nothing in that interesting article supports the claim that Baghdad is the place where kebab originated. Just plain Bill ( talk) 19:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kebab article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 100 days |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was selected as the article for improvement on 28 October 2013 for a period of one week. |
Steam kebab was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 February 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Kebab. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Should not thousands separators be written according to ISO-Standard? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.64.113.107 ( talk) 00:01, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
Halbared, you've twice now removed "outside of North America" from the second paragraph. That leaves a statement that isn't accurate and doesn't reflect the sources or reality. In the UK, Ireland, Australia, etc., people usually call a sandwich/wrap with meat from a vertical rotisserie literally "a kebab", e.g. "I'd like a kebab please", or "we stopped for a kebab after the pub". This usage is essentially unknown in the US and Canada, where it was popularized mainly by Greek immigrants. There, the common name overwhelmingly is "a gyro", (sometimes "a donair" in Canada) not "a kebab". This is common knowledge and easily verified, I added a citation and there are many more. Please stop changing it to imply that in North America a common name for gyros/shawarma/doner is "a kebab".
The first source, "Language and Food", says:
Kabab/Kebab, most likely a word of Arabic derivation, is now ubiquitous, not only in the Middle East but worldwide, to be found on every high street in Western cities. The ‘default’ kebab is cubes of meat on a skewer, the shish kebab or shashlik of international cookery. [...discussion of its presence in West and South Asia...] The ubiquitous kebab of our time is döner, rotating vertical skewers of which are to be found in profusion in every city in the Middle East and Europe. Döner is a Turkish word indicating turning or rotation. In the Levant (and in Arab and Israeli dispensers inEurope)it is called shwarma... [1]
First, note that Zubaida does not say that the doner is more ubiquitous than the cubes of meat on a skewer type, which in a global context it certainly is not. In the first sentence, ubiquitous refers to all types of kebab. The shish kebab type had spread worldwide much earlier, measured in centuries; it's not until "our time" (i.e. since the 1970s) that the doner has also become ubiquitous. Secondly, the sentence describing doner as ubiquitous goes on to say "in every city in the Middle East and Europe" - i.e., outside of North America. He doesn't mention the situation there, nor gyros.
In the second source, Marks says:
Kebab denotes an array of Middle Eastern grilled or broiled meat dishes; in America, it typically refers to shish kebab, while in Europe it more commonly indicates doner kebab (shawarma)... [2]
That's a very clear statement. It also doesn't mention gyros, but that's the reason. It does support the idea that - outside of North America - these days arguably "a kebab" more often means a doner than a shish kebab. However, he refers to Europe in general, including e.g. Austria, so if we want to make a statement that In most English-speaking countries, as the paragraph begins, the sense of "a kebab" as doner is demonstrably more common than the sense as shish kebab, we would need a better source. I think it's not really worth the effort, and is not necessary to quantify which sense is more common, at least not in the lead; the current wording suffices. -- IamNotU ( talk) 13:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
References
I fixed a grammar error on this page citing the region of origin. The previous sentence didn’t make as much sense so I fixed it so the reader can understand it more clearly. Reinhearted ( talk) 20:33, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
How can something be “originating in Middle Eastern cuisines” this is not a region or state but rather a culture of food. The proper pronunciation would be “that originated in the Middle East”. As described in the History section, the basic techniques of cooking meat on a stick or skewer originated in Africa at least half a million years ago and predates the existence of modern humans. So it's not really accurate to say that it originated in the Middle East. On the other hand, the particular styles and recipes of the broader range of dishes we now call kebabs, beyond simple meat-on-a-stick, mainly arose in Persian and, later, Ottoman cuisines. I don't see that there is any grammatical problem in describing something as originating in a certain culture rather than a region or state. It's been this way for about three years, and nobody has complained. It also allows us to link to Middle Eastern cuisine, which is a more likely destination for readers of this article, who probably already know what the Middle East is. -- IamNotU ( talk) 22:11, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The article states that “Kebab is a style of meat with their origins in Middle Eastern Cuisines” clearly not referring to the the basic meat style that originated in Africa. That claim is misleading and irrelevant to say the least Reinhearted ( talk) 19:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]], with their origins in [[Middle Eastern cuisine]].
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]] that originated in the [[Middle Eastern cusine|Middle East]].
Macrakis, I noticed your edit:
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]] in [[Middle Eastern cuisine]].
which Reinhearted has also reverted to their version. It seems Reinhearted is concerned that we define the geographical origin of kebabs, as a region or state, in the first sentence. I prefer the stable version. Yours is pretty good, I would just say that at least some kebabs, e.g. doner kebab and shish kebab, have broken out from Middle Eastern cuisine and really have become global, so that's why I like "origins in Middle Eastern cuisine". I'm not so attached to "origins", could maybe be "stemming from" or something, if it's really necessary to change it. -- IamNotU ( talk) 23:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
diff A tenth-century Baghdadi cookbook mentions kebab, but that does not place its origin in Baghdad at that time. The dish had already been in existence for millennia, if the Akrotiri firedogs are credible evidence.
The page history shows my edit summary removed, as well as the previous editor's ID. I don't see anything in the logs about admin oversight. What's going on there? Just plain Bill ( talk) 12:23, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
commonly acknowlegedthat Baghdad is the origin of kebab, then it should be possible to source it with reliable sources. True, "Middle East" is not a country, but it is a geographical area that is the closest we can pin down the origin of kebab, unless sources tell us otherwise. Now stop edit warring and start providing sources. -- T*U ( talk) 08:57, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
It used to say “Country of origin”.Not in this article's infobox it didn't. The infobox template was changed thirteen years ago to show "Place of origin" explicitly to avoid difficulties with dishes whose origin is regional, not limited to a single country. That infobox appeared in this article ten years ago, showing "Place of origin".
Nothing in that interesting article supports the claim that Baghdad is the place where kebab originated. Just plain Bill ( talk) 19:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)