![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contents of the Heroic fantasy page were merged into Sword and sorcery on 15 August 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
One only has to read the sword-and-sandal page to realize that it is vastly overstating the case to say that it is "closely related" to sword-and-sorcery. I changed the reference to a more correct description of the nearly nonexistent relationship. 71.161.82.63 ( talk) 11:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Encyclopedia reference should expand not diminish. Deleting an already existing entry goes totally against the nature of encyclopedias, and knowledge in general. Unless two entries everlap 100%, of course, which is not the case. Heroic fantasy could mean a lot more than just Sword&Sorcery, the latter being a fairly specific and recent genre, while the former could also be link with traditional folk epic themes. So, the two entries are not the same and should not be merged. Stanislav
Is there any difference between the S&S genre and HF? I can't see any. If there are, they probably should be listed in the article(s).-- SidiLemine 12:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to think there is a difference, but as with many terms of genre, people decide upon one interpretation and stick to it. From what I have been taught, Sword and Sorcery is a genre that depicts generally average non-fantastic figures moving through a fantastic world - i.e. a hero who, while being strong, fierce, etc, has no mystical powers, yet still must fight in a world filled with magic. Heroic Fantasy, on the other hand, has no such restrictions - and often features magical characters in lead (non-villian) roles. Conan is best described as Sword and Sorcery, while Record of Lodoss War is a Heroic Fantasy. I think the articles need work, not a merge. ParticularlyEvil 21:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Rather, the Heroic Fantasy article should be deleted. The difference between the two subjects is very subtle, and the quality of the Heroic Fantasy article is very poor. It reflects poor education on the history of the subject, defines and describes Heroic Fantasy poorly (and innaccurately), and focuses far too much on obscure or unimportant writers. Martin is the exception, but his contributions to fantasy are not specifically associated with 'Heroic fantasy.' The Sword and Sorcery article covers the subject tolerably well. The low quality of the article on 'Heroic Fantasy,' its redundancy with the other, and significant lack of consensus for the meaning of the term 'Heroic Fantasy' are all arguments for removing it, or else making it a stub reference that defines itself by its relation to Sword and Sorcery.
Otherwise, it should be completely rewritten.
I strongly urge that heroic fiction not be merged with sword and sorcery. Heroic fiction is a broader umbrella -- sword and sorcery is particularly specific. Look here, at www.swordandsorcery.org:
http://www.swordandsorcery.org/defining-sword-and-sorcery.htm
And here, another article from the same site. Both are annotated and well-researched and seemingly argue against combining heroic fiction and sword and sorcery. Clearly they state that LOTR is NOT, strictly speaking, sword and sorcery.
http://www.swordandsorcery.org/demarcation-of-sword-and-sorcery.htm
As the author of the first of these articles, and the primary writer of an article for the forthcoming Greenwood genre encyclopedia that defines sword and sorcery, I'd like to vote firmly that there's a difference and that they should not be merted. Given time, I'll update this entry myself. (Howard A. Jones 74.137.230.69 19:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC))
I object to "muscular heroes in violent conflict with a variety of villains" -- especially n the "Chicks in Chain Mail" series, and other female and feminist authors, there are many, many, many female protaganists in the genre, and many of them avoid violent conflict altogether. -- Zoe
Why objectionable? The text to which you seem to object ("muscular heroes in violent conflict with a variety of villains") says nothing about the gender of the hero. I think that it refers to muscular heroes of both genders. I suppose you could instead say "muscular heroes and heroines in violent conflict" but why use the sexist "heroine"? Even "muscular heroines and heroes in violent conflict" is less satisfactory to me than the original.
By the way, I think the issue of gender in S&S is handled quite well at the end of the article. What do you think?
Zoe, I suggest you propose an alternative that would improve the entry -- or just change the entry. Thanks! -- User:Cayzle
Seconded. If you think that there is important information being left out of this article, then go ahead and add it! People can only write what they know, and the only real femininist S&S I was aware of is MZBs... I'm sure that there's more out there in this day and age, but I haven't come across it. ~ KJ
Ant: It's implicit in my source for this that the phrasing of this definition is due to Moorcock in 1961. But not explicit... Certainly, in the 1960s, the perception was that it was very much a "masculine" subgenre, written by men, about men, for men... well, adolescent boys mostly?
If the protagonists, male or female, "avoid violent conflict altogether", then it's not sword and sorcery, it's diplomacy and sorcery; still fantasy, and possibly heroic, but technically not covered by this article. Noclevername 20:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Why can't the word "heroes" refer to female heroes? "Heroines" sounds somewhat archaic. Noclevername
Red Sonja never appeared in a Howard Conan story, and the character is almost wholly a creation of Roy Thomas. I'm correcting the article as-such, but I wanted to let people know why I was doing it. 172.148.61.63 16:08, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)
This article needs some references to Tolkien and Lord of the Rings. 129.21.109.54 02:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Does Elric count as sword-and-sorcery? It violates one of the central rules the article lays out, in that there are consistently kingdom- and world-changing events, up to the point of the entire universe being destroyed by the end of the series, IIRC. 69.225.161.57 04:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree, though I've heard of it referred to as S&S, it has all the hallmarks of high fantasy: fantastical magical feats that are hardly explained or even considered, fast pacing, end of the world story arc. I would be interested to know why people consider it to be S&S? 66.152.196.34 17:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Don't know what wikipedia's rules are on spoilers, but this article contains a major spoiler for the book The Worm Ouroboros, by E.R. Eddison. Granted, it's topical, and I knew about the ending before I finished the book. But, some people hold this book in nearly religious regard, and I could see this spoiler really ruining someone's day. 66.152.196.34 17:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Would it not be helpful to list the seminal works of the Swords and Sorcery genre in chronological order in which they were published?
This would help demonstrate that there is little relationship between S&S and Tolkien and other high fantasy writers, since the stories of R. E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and Fritz Leiber actually pre-date many of the works of Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.
Finally, it is largely inaccurate to refer to the protagonists of the S&S genre as "heroes" or "heroic." The protagonists of the genre are almost invariably anti-heroes. Any heroic deeds they accomplish are largely incidental to fulfilling their own agendas.
The excellent articles at swordsandsorcery.org elucidate these points rather well.
--
CLSwiki (
talk)
20:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Would it be OK to make a separate list for Sword and sorcery works like we have it for high fantasy, gothic fiction and historical novels? HeadlessMaster ( talk) 17:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I deleted the paragraph an anon IP user added on Jennifer Roberson's Sword-Dancer series because: 1) I see no indication that it was as significant to the topic of "Sword and sorcery heroines" as the other two examples; and 2) the many mistakes in spelling and grammar make it almost incomprehensible. TresÁrboles ( talk) 19:06, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
You as well, TresÁrboles? I deleted that paragraph about a month ago, and a second time just now (April 05, 2012). I'm guessing some zealous, misguided soul(s) out there shall pertinaciously continue to try to force the crotchet that Sword and Sorcery (S&S) genre is somehow sexist. As a long-time fan and connoisseur of the S&S genre (as well as a fan of feminism and egalitarianism in general), I do not think that S&S is even remotely sexist. Even if the genre were to lack admirable female characters (which it in fact does not), then it still would not fit the definition of sexist. As I understand it, sexism refers to unfair policies, behaviors, or practices which disenfranchise a gender; sexism does not pertain to viewers’ personal preference in fictional stories. If gender preference were to qualify as sexism, then any outlet which caters primarily to one gender rather than to both genders equally would qualify as sexist. This would include the LifeTime television network, Elle magazine, and Barbie toy stores – none of which have I ever considered sexist. But more fundamentally, the section was the only in this whole S&S Wiki which failed to cite a single expert opinion. For all we know, whoever keeps reposting the calumnious paragraph could be some person unfamiliar with S&S but with some misguided agenda to bring feministic polemic where it doesn’t belong. In short, if the language sounds highly opinionated and cannot be reinforced by expert opinion, then it probably doesn’t belong on Wiki. HappyEskimo (04/05/2012) 19:00 USA Central Time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyEskimo ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any editors objecting to my blanking, excluding yourself. And to clarify, my blanking is not motivated by any personal dislike, so much as it is by the prevention of fallacious slander against the S&S genre. If S&S were sexist, then I would allow it. But, S&S is not nor has it ever been sexist. As I stated earlier, I don't see that women are treated any differently than men in the stories. And again, even if they were, it would not be considered sexist. Barring women's suffrage, or conscripting only males is an example of sexism; I don't think that fictional stories glorifying one gender (which the S&S genre doesn't even do) for the sake of entertainment falls under that category. If it were, then the cited "Sword and Sorceress," an obviously feministic spin to the more gender-neutral "Sword and Sorcery" genre, would be considered sexist. Using a sexist source to falsely assert that a patently gender-neutral genre is sexist is stunningly ironic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyEskimo ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I've added the section again, and have provided additional citations showing that Salmonson's and Bradley's contributions are indeed significant. I will also be adding information on more S&S heroines, as there is only one now in the article. Ergative rlt ( talk) 02:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
This blanking without consensus or policy-based reasons is now becoming disruptive and tendentious. Read those sections, and also the ones on neutral point of view, verifiability, and if you still have a problem with the sourcing on content bring it up at the reliable sources noticeboard or a similar project page. Ergative rlt ( talk) 13:39, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
I removed the section on women in swords and sorcery. This topic is about S&S itself, and not about gender issues. If someone wants a feminist rant about women in S&S, it should be in a separate article about women in fantasy. To put this section in this article is just an annoying imposition of opinions and ideas that the reader would usually not come to this article to read about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.224.59.78 ( talk) 22:14, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
I completely agree with User_151.224.59.78. S&S has no more or and less gender issues than any other genre of entertainment, and even if it did, that has nothing to do with the topic of S&S itself. And yes, I would say the gender ramblings here did constitute a rant because they're both unfounded and off-topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.231.32.89 ( talk) 15:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
What does the painting "An island story; a child's history of England" have to with Swords & Sorcery? Wouldn't one of Frazetta's classic covers be more suitable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.224.0.254 ( talk) 12:21, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
I can remember back in the 60s or 70s when I first read S&S stories, that shows my age! Anyway my understanding was that in earlier fantasies magic had a "spiritual" role, while in S&S it was more a kind of tool or technology substitute which some characters were able to use. A related aspect is that the theme of the story is not good v. evil as in the King Arthur stories or in Tolkien's, but a more modern or "realistic" view of life where people strive for their own self-interests. Am I right or is this just my impression? PopSci ( talk) 19:26, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Right now, we have a self-contradictory paragraph: "The term "sword and sorcery" was coined in 1961 by the British author Michael Moorcock, who published a letter in the fanzine Amra, demanding a name for the sort of fantasy-adventure story written by Robert E. Howard.[3] He had initially proposed the term "epic fantasy". However, the celebrated American sword-and-sorcery author Fritz Leiber replied in the journal Ancalagon (6 April 1961), suggesting "sword-and-sorcery as a good popular catchphrase for the field". "
As it reads, it seems Moorcock asked for a name and Leiber suggested it. Therefore shouldn't it say that the term was coined by Leiber, not Moorcock? Unless Moorcock's letter itself has the term "sword & sorcery" as a suggestion (which should be explicitly stated if that's the case). Since I can't see the letter, which has been printed as "Putting a Tag on It", I don't know. PatConolly ([[User talk:PatConolly|talk]]) 05:52, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Done --
D Anthony Patriarche (
talk)
01:41, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Heroic fantasy should be merged into Sword and sorcery as the terms are synonymous. Both sources cited on Heroic fantasy (de Camp’s quotation and the Encyclopedia of Fantasy) state this explicitly. (And I think most people seeing the term would think it meant high/epic fantasy, making it even worse.) CohenTheBohemian ( talk) 12:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
Joseph A. McCullough suggests the major distinction between 'Heroic Fantasy' and 'Sword and Sorcery' is one of scale. Olivaw-Daneel ( talk) 15:33, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
these authors took Howards direction and characters to far away from their edifying characteristics to be cited as experts of the genre. De Camp excised the original unedited Howard stories from publication after he aquired rights to Howard's work through a copyright claim via a lawsuit of Gnome Press. The original unedited stories were never in publication again until 2002.
He also has gone on to challenge Howard's skills and story telling in well documented demeaning fashion.
This would be like citing Kathleen Kennedy for Star Wars edification. Pastiche work and edits of the original material disqualify them from being cited as valuable references. They had no love or respect for the original, historical stories.
We have people undermining the historocity of this genre and it needs to be corrected.
Supernaut72 ( talk) 19:09, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
I've done a search for " Gertrude Hall", "Garden Deadly" and "sword and sorcery" online, and I haven't been able to find any references to Hall's story influencing the sword and sorcery sub-genre. In the books and articles I've consulted (David Pringle, Brian Murphy, Jeffrey Shanks etc.) there is no mention of Hall's story influencing the sub-genre, or any evidence that the key s&s writers (Robert E. Howard, C. L. Moore, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, etc.) knewn about Hall's work.
So I'm removing the paragraph about Hall from the article (reason: WP:NOCITE) until someone comes up with a reliable source for a connection between Gertrude Hall and the "sorcery and sorcery" subgenre. 193.203.134.113 ( talk) 14:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contents of the Heroic fantasy page were merged into Sword and sorcery on 15 August 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
One only has to read the sword-and-sandal page to realize that it is vastly overstating the case to say that it is "closely related" to sword-and-sorcery. I changed the reference to a more correct description of the nearly nonexistent relationship. 71.161.82.63 ( talk) 11:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Encyclopedia reference should expand not diminish. Deleting an already existing entry goes totally against the nature of encyclopedias, and knowledge in general. Unless two entries everlap 100%, of course, which is not the case. Heroic fantasy could mean a lot more than just Sword&Sorcery, the latter being a fairly specific and recent genre, while the former could also be link with traditional folk epic themes. So, the two entries are not the same and should not be merged. Stanislav
Is there any difference between the S&S genre and HF? I can't see any. If there are, they probably should be listed in the article(s).-- SidiLemine 12:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to think there is a difference, but as with many terms of genre, people decide upon one interpretation and stick to it. From what I have been taught, Sword and Sorcery is a genre that depicts generally average non-fantastic figures moving through a fantastic world - i.e. a hero who, while being strong, fierce, etc, has no mystical powers, yet still must fight in a world filled with magic. Heroic Fantasy, on the other hand, has no such restrictions - and often features magical characters in lead (non-villian) roles. Conan is best described as Sword and Sorcery, while Record of Lodoss War is a Heroic Fantasy. I think the articles need work, not a merge. ParticularlyEvil 21:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Rather, the Heroic Fantasy article should be deleted. The difference between the two subjects is very subtle, and the quality of the Heroic Fantasy article is very poor. It reflects poor education on the history of the subject, defines and describes Heroic Fantasy poorly (and innaccurately), and focuses far too much on obscure or unimportant writers. Martin is the exception, but his contributions to fantasy are not specifically associated with 'Heroic fantasy.' The Sword and Sorcery article covers the subject tolerably well. The low quality of the article on 'Heroic Fantasy,' its redundancy with the other, and significant lack of consensus for the meaning of the term 'Heroic Fantasy' are all arguments for removing it, or else making it a stub reference that defines itself by its relation to Sword and Sorcery.
Otherwise, it should be completely rewritten.
I strongly urge that heroic fiction not be merged with sword and sorcery. Heroic fiction is a broader umbrella -- sword and sorcery is particularly specific. Look here, at www.swordandsorcery.org:
http://www.swordandsorcery.org/defining-sword-and-sorcery.htm
And here, another article from the same site. Both are annotated and well-researched and seemingly argue against combining heroic fiction and sword and sorcery. Clearly they state that LOTR is NOT, strictly speaking, sword and sorcery.
http://www.swordandsorcery.org/demarcation-of-sword-and-sorcery.htm
As the author of the first of these articles, and the primary writer of an article for the forthcoming Greenwood genre encyclopedia that defines sword and sorcery, I'd like to vote firmly that there's a difference and that they should not be merted. Given time, I'll update this entry myself. (Howard A. Jones 74.137.230.69 19:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC))
I object to "muscular heroes in violent conflict with a variety of villains" -- especially n the "Chicks in Chain Mail" series, and other female and feminist authors, there are many, many, many female protaganists in the genre, and many of them avoid violent conflict altogether. -- Zoe
Why objectionable? The text to which you seem to object ("muscular heroes in violent conflict with a variety of villains") says nothing about the gender of the hero. I think that it refers to muscular heroes of both genders. I suppose you could instead say "muscular heroes and heroines in violent conflict" but why use the sexist "heroine"? Even "muscular heroines and heroes in violent conflict" is less satisfactory to me than the original.
By the way, I think the issue of gender in S&S is handled quite well at the end of the article. What do you think?
Zoe, I suggest you propose an alternative that would improve the entry -- or just change the entry. Thanks! -- User:Cayzle
Seconded. If you think that there is important information being left out of this article, then go ahead and add it! People can only write what they know, and the only real femininist S&S I was aware of is MZBs... I'm sure that there's more out there in this day and age, but I haven't come across it. ~ KJ
Ant: It's implicit in my source for this that the phrasing of this definition is due to Moorcock in 1961. But not explicit... Certainly, in the 1960s, the perception was that it was very much a "masculine" subgenre, written by men, about men, for men... well, adolescent boys mostly?
If the protagonists, male or female, "avoid violent conflict altogether", then it's not sword and sorcery, it's diplomacy and sorcery; still fantasy, and possibly heroic, but technically not covered by this article. Noclevername 20:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Why can't the word "heroes" refer to female heroes? "Heroines" sounds somewhat archaic. Noclevername
Red Sonja never appeared in a Howard Conan story, and the character is almost wholly a creation of Roy Thomas. I'm correcting the article as-such, but I wanted to let people know why I was doing it. 172.148.61.63 16:08, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)
This article needs some references to Tolkien and Lord of the Rings. 129.21.109.54 02:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Does Elric count as sword-and-sorcery? It violates one of the central rules the article lays out, in that there are consistently kingdom- and world-changing events, up to the point of the entire universe being destroyed by the end of the series, IIRC. 69.225.161.57 04:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree, though I've heard of it referred to as S&S, it has all the hallmarks of high fantasy: fantastical magical feats that are hardly explained or even considered, fast pacing, end of the world story arc. I would be interested to know why people consider it to be S&S? 66.152.196.34 17:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Don't know what wikipedia's rules are on spoilers, but this article contains a major spoiler for the book The Worm Ouroboros, by E.R. Eddison. Granted, it's topical, and I knew about the ending before I finished the book. But, some people hold this book in nearly religious regard, and I could see this spoiler really ruining someone's day. 66.152.196.34 17:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Would it not be helpful to list the seminal works of the Swords and Sorcery genre in chronological order in which they were published?
This would help demonstrate that there is little relationship between S&S and Tolkien and other high fantasy writers, since the stories of R. E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and Fritz Leiber actually pre-date many of the works of Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.
Finally, it is largely inaccurate to refer to the protagonists of the S&S genre as "heroes" or "heroic." The protagonists of the genre are almost invariably anti-heroes. Any heroic deeds they accomplish are largely incidental to fulfilling their own agendas.
The excellent articles at swordsandsorcery.org elucidate these points rather well.
--
CLSwiki (
talk)
20:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Would it be OK to make a separate list for Sword and sorcery works like we have it for high fantasy, gothic fiction and historical novels? HeadlessMaster ( talk) 17:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I deleted the paragraph an anon IP user added on Jennifer Roberson's Sword-Dancer series because: 1) I see no indication that it was as significant to the topic of "Sword and sorcery heroines" as the other two examples; and 2) the many mistakes in spelling and grammar make it almost incomprehensible. TresÁrboles ( talk) 19:06, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
You as well, TresÁrboles? I deleted that paragraph about a month ago, and a second time just now (April 05, 2012). I'm guessing some zealous, misguided soul(s) out there shall pertinaciously continue to try to force the crotchet that Sword and Sorcery (S&S) genre is somehow sexist. As a long-time fan and connoisseur of the S&S genre (as well as a fan of feminism and egalitarianism in general), I do not think that S&S is even remotely sexist. Even if the genre were to lack admirable female characters (which it in fact does not), then it still would not fit the definition of sexist. As I understand it, sexism refers to unfair policies, behaviors, or practices which disenfranchise a gender; sexism does not pertain to viewers’ personal preference in fictional stories. If gender preference were to qualify as sexism, then any outlet which caters primarily to one gender rather than to both genders equally would qualify as sexist. This would include the LifeTime television network, Elle magazine, and Barbie toy stores – none of which have I ever considered sexist. But more fundamentally, the section was the only in this whole S&S Wiki which failed to cite a single expert opinion. For all we know, whoever keeps reposting the calumnious paragraph could be some person unfamiliar with S&S but with some misguided agenda to bring feministic polemic where it doesn’t belong. In short, if the language sounds highly opinionated and cannot be reinforced by expert opinion, then it probably doesn’t belong on Wiki. HappyEskimo (04/05/2012) 19:00 USA Central Time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyEskimo ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any editors objecting to my blanking, excluding yourself. And to clarify, my blanking is not motivated by any personal dislike, so much as it is by the prevention of fallacious slander against the S&S genre. If S&S were sexist, then I would allow it. But, S&S is not nor has it ever been sexist. As I stated earlier, I don't see that women are treated any differently than men in the stories. And again, even if they were, it would not be considered sexist. Barring women's suffrage, or conscripting only males is an example of sexism; I don't think that fictional stories glorifying one gender (which the S&S genre doesn't even do) for the sake of entertainment falls under that category. If it were, then the cited "Sword and Sorceress," an obviously feministic spin to the more gender-neutral "Sword and Sorcery" genre, would be considered sexist. Using a sexist source to falsely assert that a patently gender-neutral genre is sexist is stunningly ironic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyEskimo ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I've added the section again, and have provided additional citations showing that Salmonson's and Bradley's contributions are indeed significant. I will also be adding information on more S&S heroines, as there is only one now in the article. Ergative rlt ( talk) 02:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
This blanking without consensus or policy-based reasons is now becoming disruptive and tendentious. Read those sections, and also the ones on neutral point of view, verifiability, and if you still have a problem with the sourcing on content bring it up at the reliable sources noticeboard or a similar project page. Ergative rlt ( talk) 13:39, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
I removed the section on women in swords and sorcery. This topic is about S&S itself, and not about gender issues. If someone wants a feminist rant about women in S&S, it should be in a separate article about women in fantasy. To put this section in this article is just an annoying imposition of opinions and ideas that the reader would usually not come to this article to read about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.224.59.78 ( talk) 22:14, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
I completely agree with User_151.224.59.78. S&S has no more or and less gender issues than any other genre of entertainment, and even if it did, that has nothing to do with the topic of S&S itself. And yes, I would say the gender ramblings here did constitute a rant because they're both unfounded and off-topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.231.32.89 ( talk) 15:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
What does the painting "An island story; a child's history of England" have to with Swords & Sorcery? Wouldn't one of Frazetta's classic covers be more suitable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.224.0.254 ( talk) 12:21, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
I can remember back in the 60s or 70s when I first read S&S stories, that shows my age! Anyway my understanding was that in earlier fantasies magic had a "spiritual" role, while in S&S it was more a kind of tool or technology substitute which some characters were able to use. A related aspect is that the theme of the story is not good v. evil as in the King Arthur stories or in Tolkien's, but a more modern or "realistic" view of life where people strive for their own self-interests. Am I right or is this just my impression? PopSci ( talk) 19:26, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Right now, we have a self-contradictory paragraph: "The term "sword and sorcery" was coined in 1961 by the British author Michael Moorcock, who published a letter in the fanzine Amra, demanding a name for the sort of fantasy-adventure story written by Robert E. Howard.[3] He had initially proposed the term "epic fantasy". However, the celebrated American sword-and-sorcery author Fritz Leiber replied in the journal Ancalagon (6 April 1961), suggesting "sword-and-sorcery as a good popular catchphrase for the field". "
As it reads, it seems Moorcock asked for a name and Leiber suggested it. Therefore shouldn't it say that the term was coined by Leiber, not Moorcock? Unless Moorcock's letter itself has the term "sword & sorcery" as a suggestion (which should be explicitly stated if that's the case). Since I can't see the letter, which has been printed as "Putting a Tag on It", I don't know. PatConolly ([[User talk:PatConolly|talk]]) 05:52, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Done --
D Anthony Patriarche (
talk)
01:41, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Heroic fantasy should be merged into Sword and sorcery as the terms are synonymous. Both sources cited on Heroic fantasy (de Camp’s quotation and the Encyclopedia of Fantasy) state this explicitly. (And I think most people seeing the term would think it meant high/epic fantasy, making it even worse.) CohenTheBohemian ( talk) 12:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
Joseph A. McCullough suggests the major distinction between 'Heroic Fantasy' and 'Sword and Sorcery' is one of scale. Olivaw-Daneel ( talk) 15:33, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
these authors took Howards direction and characters to far away from their edifying characteristics to be cited as experts of the genre. De Camp excised the original unedited Howard stories from publication after he aquired rights to Howard's work through a copyright claim via a lawsuit of Gnome Press. The original unedited stories were never in publication again until 2002.
He also has gone on to challenge Howard's skills and story telling in well documented demeaning fashion.
This would be like citing Kathleen Kennedy for Star Wars edification. Pastiche work and edits of the original material disqualify them from being cited as valuable references. They had no love or respect for the original, historical stories.
We have people undermining the historocity of this genre and it needs to be corrected.
Supernaut72 ( talk) 19:09, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
I've done a search for " Gertrude Hall", "Garden Deadly" and "sword and sorcery" online, and I haven't been able to find any references to Hall's story influencing the sword and sorcery sub-genre. In the books and articles I've consulted (David Pringle, Brian Murphy, Jeffrey Shanks etc.) there is no mention of Hall's story influencing the sub-genre, or any evidence that the key s&s writers (Robert E. Howard, C. L. Moore, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, etc.) knewn about Hall's work.
So I'm removing the paragraph about Hall from the article (reason: WP:NOCITE) until someone comes up with a reliable source for a connection between Gertrude Hall and the "sorcery and sorcery" subgenre. 193.203.134.113 ( talk) 14:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)