This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
As discussed in #Split of "Timeline" section, the Timeline section of the article has become large enough to warrant a split- I have done such a split to the article Timeline of the 2023 Sudan conflict. I'd like to note that the new article needs to be expanded, and the Timeline section must be compressed, so if anyone could help me with those tasks, I'd appreciate it. Presidentofyes12 ( talk) 19:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
The info-box lists Wagner as a backer of the militia forces. My understanding though is that while Wagner had previously done training with the militias, this was when they were still under the government's control. I don't think there's any reason to believe that Russia supports an overthrow of the Sudanese government, and in fact they'd recently concluded an agreement for Sudan to host a Russian naval base, so it'd make no sense for them to try to overthrow or destabilize a government that had just agreed to let them set up a new base. - 2003:CA:870C:E18:5741:A3A3:2CE8:D385 ( talk) 18:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
UPDATE: There was no reply here for a few days, so I went ahead and
WP:BOLD removed the Wagner allegations from the info-box....The text there had stated that Wagner's involvement in the conflict was "alleged," but no source has been cited with anyone specifically alleging it. In the BBC article which was cited
[1], the BBC seems to try to insinuate that Wagner might somehow be involved in the current conflict, but if you read carefully you'll see that they never actually specifically state this. And in fact they write that: "We've found no evidence that Russian mercenaries are currently inside the country. But there is evidence of Wagner's previous activities in Sudan, and Mr Prighozin's operations in the country have been targeted by both US and EU sanctions."
And none of the other people whose statements they report in that article (including that of Trump Admin official from three years ago) specifically allege Wagner involvement in the current conflict either.
A Military Africa article was also cited [2], but this one again has no mention of any specific allegation that Wagner is involved in the current conflict - siding with the militia forces against the government, as the info-box had alleged. In fact it actually cites a Sudanese government statement to the contrary: "The Sudanese government has also denied any knowledge of the Wagner groupâs presence in the country." If Wagner were involved in the conflict and siding with the rebelling militia forces against the government, one would think that the government would be eager to make that known, in order to get more Western support...
In any case, in the absence of even any clearly stated allegations from reliable sources, it only makes sense to completely remove Wagner from the info-box. - 2003:CA:870C:ED4:87F1:B283:22C9:D3E2 ( talk) 10:50, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
The issue of Wagner support has already been discussed, see previous discussion here [4]. General consensus was that Wagner provided support to the RSF BEFORE the current conflict, while there is no evidence Wagner is providing support DURING this conflict, which is two different things. So, the alleged Wagner support should be removed until more (reliable) sources confirm they are providing support during this conflict. EkoGraf ( talk) 15:18, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm not sure what any previous consensus was - but my own position is that all current 'supporters' should not be in the infobox as the nature/degree and certainty of their support is insufficiently established, but attributed text is OK. Though no one doubts that Wagner HAS provided material support in the past, there is insufficient certainty to say they continue to do so NOW. It seems especially 'iffy' to place Wagner under the Russia flag. If we have to add an 'alleged' to such claims, to me that is an indicator that the claim shouldn't be in the infobox nor in WP:VOICE anyway. Infoboxes are not places for nuance and adding 'refuted/denied' to poorly sourced and unclear accusations in an infobox seems like a 'cop-out' to me. Attributed text accommodates nuance far more easily. Pincrete ( talk) 04:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Sanad real this is the talk page FuzzyMagma ( talk) 01:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
Can I please edit something real quick I just need to change the duration of the war so far from 1 month to 1 month and 1 day 85.97.203.15 ( talk) 08:52, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
So, according to the artice, the death toll of the conflict is at least 1000, while the page dealing with the battle in Geneina claims that the death toll in West Darfur alone is as high as 2000. Shouldn't the former figure be updated? 79.164.45.230 ( talk) 17:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
I wonder if there are already usable non-map images for this article. It just feels different monitoring a conflict on Wiki without much pics. Borgenland ( talk) 11:43, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
The license that applies to an image or media file must be indicated clearly on the file description page using a copyright tag.It's true that most news images have copyrights that prevent them from being accepted on Wikimedia Commons. Boud ( talk) 18:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
Russia is supporting the RSF. 2A02:3030:815:CA06:1:0:3C8A:794E ( talk) 17:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
There's a few errors in the map such as RSF fully controlling Nyala and Geneina which is false, and in general the shaded areas of control. Is there any plan to correct the map? Truecope ( talk) 14:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
At this point, the death toll appears to have climbed past 1000, which wikipedia's list of armed conflicts considers to count as a full scale war. There are several sources now referring to the conflict as a "war," such as the following:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/14/sudan-war-egypt-burhan-hemedti/
https://punchng.com/things-to-know-as-sudan-war-enters-one-month/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-65525006 209.214.231.30 ( talk) 18:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
The crisis in Sudan is no longer confined to a specific area, as was the case at the beginning of the confrontation between the Sudanese Army and the Rapid Support Forces; but has spread to wider geographical areas and has not been resolved in favor of either party. It is better to call it 2023 Sudan clashes because it describe the current situation because it has passed the crisis stage. Mr. JamesDimsey ( talk) 14:22, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
@ FuzzyMagma and Tobby72:US treasury department asserts that Wagner Group has been suppling RSF with surface-to-air missile to fight Sudan's army. [7] In light of these news it's best to reinstate Russia under combatants of RSF. Ecrusized ( talk) 20:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Itâs basically the textbook definition 2601:148:380:330:D0AC:B8D3:7577:3D92 ( talk) 13:33, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
I added the SPLM-N on the infobox but there are some objections so feel free to discuss what should be done here. Borgenland ( talk) 04:56, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
can you please change south Sudan to South Kordofan, as these are not the same. And remove the refs from the lead as per
MOS:LEDE
FuzzyMagma (
talk) 18:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Why is this still considered a "conflict"? Seems like a "war" to me. 2600:6C5C:6C7F:5E53:7477:DE4E:9DF5:981A ( talk) 00:47, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
The are reports that the fighting in Darfur is becoming another genocide. Do any of you believe that it deserves an article of its own at this point? Borgenland ( talk) 06:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Purpose before adding information to the infobox that is not first included in the article and established as a key fact FuzzyMagma ( talk) 06:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
The Casualties chapter is becoming outdated with respect to the location breakdown of Sudanese casualties with the exception of Darfur. I believe that it is time to rearrange and if necessary trim that part which I will start later. Borgenland ( talk) 18:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
See this map I saw on a news site. Also posting this on Commons discussion: https://www.dabangasudan.org/en/all-news/article/more-people-killed-in-battles-in-el-obeid-and-sudan-capital Borgenland ( talk) 14:46, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2023 Sudan conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "On 13 July, Egypt hosted a summit in Cairo, wherein the SAF, the RSF and leaders of Sudan's neighboring states agreed to a agreed to a new initiative to resolve the conflict." to "On 13 July, Egypt hosted a summit in Cairo, wherein the SAF, the RSF and leaders of Sudan's neighboring states agreed to a new initiative to resolve the conflict." Bigpoobles ( talk) 17:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
As someone who's red-green colorblind, this might be one of the worst maps I've seen. Why can't more unique colors be used instead? 134.65.164.225 ( talk) 08:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
I think it's now time to call it a civil war, many sources are now calling this a civil war, theres also now 3 belligrants and it surpassed 10k of deaths
Change from "2023 Sudan Conflict" to "Third Sudanese Civil War" Lucasmota0975 ( talk) 23:40, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
With over 10,000 deaths [12] and numerous WP:RS calling it a civil war at this point, it unfortunately is one and thus should be classified as the 2023-Present Sudanese Civil War [13], [14]. Seeking consensus for name change to 2023-Present Sudanese Civil War (or a similar title). Dilbaggg ( talk) 13:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Maybe the Fourth Sudanese Civil War will do. Dilbaggg ( talk) 13:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
what the majority of sources and therefore readers are calling this event?and it is really does not support your point of calling it the "Sudan civil was (2023-present)" .. please stop using provocative language as
hope you know how to click, what that suppose to mean?! FuzzyMagma ( talk) 19:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
Just about every martial word is being used at present is sources, sometimes 'war', sometimes 'fighting', sometimes 'conflict'- ocassionally 'civil war', never AFAI can see "Nth Sudanese Civil war". I don't know about the Myanmar events, but maybe sources have settled on a name for what has happened there - IMO they haven't yet iro Sudan. Pincrete ( talk) 07:27, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
I just listed a source that called it "Sudan's civil war," and seeing as they had two others already, that implies it is the third one. That's what we call WP:OR, if the sources thought that this was the Third Sudanese Civil War, they can probably count as well as you and would be calling it that by now.
I heard some people call the aftermath of the second Sudanese civil war the third but I think it could also refer to this or you could call it the fourth but I think third is better I want to see what people think. HuntersHistory ( talk) 23:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
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.
)
}}
31.46.139.165 (
talk) 05:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
-- Totz matez ( talk) 05:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Third Sudanese civil war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Totz matez ( talk) 05:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
Due to major news organizations calling it a war. This includes: Reuters, AP, Washington Post, France 24, and many others. Also the amount of casualities and refugees exceed "conflict" level. CatmanBw ( talk) 06:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
amount of casualities and refugees exceed "conflict" levelthis is either original reporting or there should be a source backing this statement up as it can be seen as contentious to some.
Please also update the refugee and casualty numbers in the body, not just in the infobox and introduction to ensure that this article is always up to date. Borgenland ( talk) 16:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to War in Sudan (2023). This appears to be the title supported by the majority of editors. There was also some support for inclusion of "civil war" in the title. However based on other similar move discussions I'm aware of, the description of a conflict as a "civil war" is something we don't generally do without (several) sources. Reading through this discussion, I see no sources provided to describe this (in its current state) as a civil war. If any editor can provide sources to support the inclusion of "civil war", I would encourage a separate move discussion for simplicity's sake( closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 ( talk) â 02:45, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
2023 Sudan conflict â 2023 Sudan war â As raised by CatmanBw, recent reporting by major international news organisations are moving to reporting this issue as a war rather than just a conflict. Aljazeera, VOA, Washington Post, France24, CNN, AP, Reuters. Indepedently searching for news using 'Sudan conflict' shows further reporting as 'war' or a mix of both: Aljazeera 2, France24 2, both of which are more recent articles. â robertsky ( talk) 04:22, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
would personally chooseâ .. not whatever twist youâre trying to imply. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 23:45, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Since fighting broke out between the regular army and..FuzzyMagma ( talk) 23:41, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Support Sudanese Civil War, widely being called a civil war on msm recently. Ecrusized ( talk) 20:08, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
In an article on looting ( https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-66637454) residents of Omdurman mention an undated fire at a perfume factory killing 120 people while it was being looted during the conflict. As this is a mass casualty incident, I'd like to add this but am not sure to which section. Any suggestions? Borgenland ( talk) 08:15, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
The paged wasnât moved to War in Sudan (2023) at all. UkraineFella ( talk) 09:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
https://sudantribune.com/article277603/ Lukt64 ( talk) 15:28, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
War in Sudan (2023) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
under foreign involvementâukraine, 'where behind' should be changed to 'were behind'. Tsukayamaj ( talk) 19:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
There's something odd about the Sudan Tribune references. Most (if not all) are marked as permanent dead links, but when I click through them they seem to work. I tried using a USA proxy site, that worked too. However, the wayback machine/archival website doesn't seem to be capable of viewing or saving them properly, claiming it's been blocked. I'm not sure how to fix this, but I thought it'd be something prudent to point out if it hasn't been already. Silverleaf81 ( talk) 13:03, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
I would like for it to be colorblind accessible Lukt64 ( talk) 17:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
It seems like nobody is invading, so wouldn't it be a Civil war? UB Blacephalon ( talk) 17:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
I feel like this is more consistent with outdated battle articles, and also closer to the old name "2023 Sudan Conflict" Lukt64 ( talk) 19:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
War in Sudan (2023) â Sudanese Civil War (2023) â This is a months-old conflict and is beginning to escalate again. Its time to call it a civil war. Lukt64 ( talk) 01:01, 10 October 1023 (UTC)
Hi @ Parham wiki, I see you changed War in Sudan (2023) to Part of the Russo-Ukrainian War (likely) and first and second Sudanese civil war to ArabâIsraeli conflict. Maybe they are but surely they are more part of Sudanese Civil Wars. I am not sure if you are claiming that these wars were the results of Russo-Ukrainian War or the ArabâIsraeli conflict because they are not. Foreign forces may interfered but they were not the cause so can you please amend your edit FuzzyMagma ( talk) 13:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
Nyala battle has concluded with RSF seizing full control of the city. The current map does not indicate that. â Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorgedweller ( talk âą contribs) 08:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
As of October, we now have a definite minimum toll of 9,000 as confirmed by the UN and relevant government agencies. I believe it is time to take off the minimum 4,000 range in the infobox and wherever else it is mentioned. Borgenland ( talk) 06:02, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure). There is a consensus against the proposed title as "Third" is unsupported by the sources. There was no consensus on whether the article should have some variant of "Civil War" in the title so no prejudice against a new RM with e.g. Sudanese Civil War (2023), 2023 Sudanese Civil War, etc. as a proposed title. Jenks24 ( talk) 01:55, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
War in Sudan (2023) â Third Sudanese Civil War â Multiple news outlets like The Guardian and the BBC have called it a Civil War, this is a months-old conflict and is beginning to escalate again. Its time to call it a civil war. Lukt64 ( talk) 01:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Parham wiki ( talk) 17:16, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Support We don't want to be massively late to the punch again like we were with Ethiopia. â Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:E5FD:89C0:407C:4789 (
talk) 21:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
SupportAlthough not so many sources call it "Third", its tecnically pretty much a continuation of the previous two wars, just diffrents groups at this time, and many sources are calling it a civil war, not a third, but still a civil war.
Lucasoliveira653 (
talk) 16:22, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Could you add protection to this article for edit warring? UltimateFantasyY ( talk) 00:03, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
the Darfur Alliance joined the SAF in war, should we put them and the SAF in one group in the map, as "Sudanese armed forces and allies"? Ghmrsudan ( talk) 11:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
After the capture of Ed Daein this week, the state of East Darfur was also captured fully. Could we change the map to show those recent changes? 2601:183:4281:9CD0:C54D:31AF:25B4:3B6B ( talk) 03:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
I think that the "This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably." should be considered resolved as there is enough subheading to make the entire article more easily to digest. Eason Y. Lu ( talk) 00:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Having an entire separate section on peace efforts doesn't make much sense to me, because efforts to achieve peace have not been separate from the actual fighting and as a result the 'Peace efforts' section has become bloated with one-sentence paragraphs that do not really belong in the article per WP:UNDUEWEIGHT, and which has also given the article far too many section titles that clog up navigation. I reckon that the Treaty of Jeddah (2023) and any subsequent important negotiations can be far better covered in the Course of the war section. Thoughts? Devonian Wombat ( talk) 01:38, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus, move to War in Sudan (2023âpresent). â robertsky ( talk) 04:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
or * B:
War in Sudan (2023) â
War in Sudan
or * C:
War in Sudan (2023) â
Sudanese civil war (2023âpresent)
or * D:
War in Sudan (2023) â
Sudanese civil war
or * E:
War in Sudan (2023) no change
(You can add other name suggestions if you think that it is appropriate)
With almost a week left for this year to end, I think it is about time we start the discussion for renaming this article (Admins please don't move the article before 1/1/2024)
Bremps
... 04:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
i cant edit very well on a phone, just wanted to tell you all. https://sudantribune.com/article281102/ Lukt64 ( talk) 06:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure where to incorporate this information, but here's the link: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/1/9/sudans-army-is-retaliating-against-activists-amid-the-war-for-their-role-in-bringing-down-their-former-boss-and-president-omar-al-bashir-in-april-2019
Al Jazeera is state-owned media, but for they're been relatively impartial for this topic (2023-present War in Sudan). They're not impartial with respect to the 2023 Israel-Hamas War, which is unsurprising as Qatar harbors the leaders of Hamas. JohnAdams1800 ( talk) 21:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
This clearly isn't a short post-coup conflict anymore 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:ACAC:6FC7:C632:32DE ( talk) 20:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
The latest analysis of February 2024 by German political scientist Hager Ali, writing for the German Institute for Global and Area Studies, may be useful for updating recent events of the war in Sudan. - It is an Open Access publication and can be read on the Internet and downloaded free of charge at www.giga-hamburg.de/en/publications/giga-focus. According to the conditions of the Creative-Commons license Attribution-No Derivative Works 3.0, this publication may be freely duplicated, circulated, and made accessible to the public, but NOT be copied for Wikipedia. Munfarid1 ( talk) 08:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A civil war, being a part of the so-called Elephant Trunk Revolution [1] [2] [3] 94.25.185.191 ( talk) 06:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
References
I have recently created and began working on the List of invasions in the 21st century. Obviously, this invasion and offensives amid the invasion are included in the list. I have a few short summaries already listed in the chart, but I would appreciate if anyone who is familiar with the invasion wants to help out. My current thought process is that anything significant related to the invasion/offensive needs to be mentioned in the summary. So, if anyone wants to help out, feel free to work on, improve, or completely rewrite the summaries in that list. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 19:32, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
I happened to notice that this page was being considered for addition to the in-the-news section of the main page ( here). The main sticking point seems to be the lack of substantive additions to this entry in April (the timeline article is said to be just one line per day, while this -- considerably more substantive -- entry is said not to have enough updates). Those who work on this page might want to see if there are any developments that warrant addition as the conflict is passing the one-year mark. -- SashiRolls đż · đ„ 19:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Ever since Prigozhin's death, Wagner has grown closer and closer to the Russian government and is now under direct oversight of the Russian National Guard, and all members have to sign their allegiance to the Russian government. I think we can just put Russia in the list of state supporters instead of Wagner as a non-state supporter. Game2Winter ( talk) 04:46, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
How long has the government been actively involved in the War in Sudan? Initially, the article mentioned only the conflict between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces. This seams to be the that changed the info-box. LuxembourgLover ( talk) 17:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
the map needs to be updated to show the Wad Madani offensive
i would do it but im lazy Lukt64 ( talk) 00:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) â Compassionate727 ( T· C) 21:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
War in Sudan (2023âpresent) â Sudanese civil war (2023âpresent) â The conflict is a civil war and this has become the most common name used, sources are such as Sky News: [22] (Itâs in the title.) BBC News: [23] â⊠of the year-long Sudanese civil warâ Independent: [24] â⊠during a year-long civil warâ CNN: [25] âSudan has been gripped by civil war since April 2023â. 78.170.144.248 ( talk) 14:04, 18 May 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request ( permalink). 78.170.144.248 ( talk) 15:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
The war has been going on for a year now, and many sources are now calling it a civil war. [1] [2] [3] [4]
BigRed606 ( talk) 08:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
I really hope it isn't what the Media specifically is using because the bulk of them suck at getting details right when it comes to African conflicts.
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
As discussed in #Split of "Timeline" section, the Timeline section of the article has become large enough to warrant a split- I have done such a split to the article Timeline of the 2023 Sudan conflict. I'd like to note that the new article needs to be expanded, and the Timeline section must be compressed, so if anyone could help me with those tasks, I'd appreciate it. Presidentofyes12 ( talk) 19:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
The info-box lists Wagner as a backer of the militia forces. My understanding though is that while Wagner had previously done training with the militias, this was when they were still under the government's control. I don't think there's any reason to believe that Russia supports an overthrow of the Sudanese government, and in fact they'd recently concluded an agreement for Sudan to host a Russian naval base, so it'd make no sense for them to try to overthrow or destabilize a government that had just agreed to let them set up a new base. - 2003:CA:870C:E18:5741:A3A3:2CE8:D385 ( talk) 18:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
UPDATE: There was no reply here for a few days, so I went ahead and
WP:BOLD removed the Wagner allegations from the info-box....The text there had stated that Wagner's involvement in the conflict was "alleged," but no source has been cited with anyone specifically alleging it. In the BBC article which was cited
[1], the BBC seems to try to insinuate that Wagner might somehow be involved in the current conflict, but if you read carefully you'll see that they never actually specifically state this. And in fact they write that: "We've found no evidence that Russian mercenaries are currently inside the country. But there is evidence of Wagner's previous activities in Sudan, and Mr Prighozin's operations in the country have been targeted by both US and EU sanctions."
And none of the other people whose statements they report in that article (including that of Trump Admin official from three years ago) specifically allege Wagner involvement in the current conflict either.
A Military Africa article was also cited [2], but this one again has no mention of any specific allegation that Wagner is involved in the current conflict - siding with the militia forces against the government, as the info-box had alleged. In fact it actually cites a Sudanese government statement to the contrary: "The Sudanese government has also denied any knowledge of the Wagner groupâs presence in the country." If Wagner were involved in the conflict and siding with the rebelling militia forces against the government, one would think that the government would be eager to make that known, in order to get more Western support...
In any case, in the absence of even any clearly stated allegations from reliable sources, it only makes sense to completely remove Wagner from the info-box. - 2003:CA:870C:ED4:87F1:B283:22C9:D3E2 ( talk) 10:50, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
The issue of Wagner support has already been discussed, see previous discussion here [4]. General consensus was that Wagner provided support to the RSF BEFORE the current conflict, while there is no evidence Wagner is providing support DURING this conflict, which is two different things. So, the alleged Wagner support should be removed until more (reliable) sources confirm they are providing support during this conflict. EkoGraf ( talk) 15:18, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm not sure what any previous consensus was - but my own position is that all current 'supporters' should not be in the infobox as the nature/degree and certainty of their support is insufficiently established, but attributed text is OK. Though no one doubts that Wagner HAS provided material support in the past, there is insufficient certainty to say they continue to do so NOW. It seems especially 'iffy' to place Wagner under the Russia flag. If we have to add an 'alleged' to such claims, to me that is an indicator that the claim shouldn't be in the infobox nor in WP:VOICE anyway. Infoboxes are not places for nuance and adding 'refuted/denied' to poorly sourced and unclear accusations in an infobox seems like a 'cop-out' to me. Attributed text accommodates nuance far more easily. Pincrete ( talk) 04:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Sanad real this is the talk page FuzzyMagma ( talk) 01:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
Can I please edit something real quick I just need to change the duration of the war so far from 1 month to 1 month and 1 day 85.97.203.15 ( talk) 08:52, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
So, according to the artice, the death toll of the conflict is at least 1000, while the page dealing with the battle in Geneina claims that the death toll in West Darfur alone is as high as 2000. Shouldn't the former figure be updated? 79.164.45.230 ( talk) 17:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
I wonder if there are already usable non-map images for this article. It just feels different monitoring a conflict on Wiki without much pics. Borgenland ( talk) 11:43, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
The license that applies to an image or media file must be indicated clearly on the file description page using a copyright tag.It's true that most news images have copyrights that prevent them from being accepted on Wikimedia Commons. Boud ( talk) 18:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
Russia is supporting the RSF. 2A02:3030:815:CA06:1:0:3C8A:794E ( talk) 17:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
There's a few errors in the map such as RSF fully controlling Nyala and Geneina which is false, and in general the shaded areas of control. Is there any plan to correct the map? Truecope ( talk) 14:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
At this point, the death toll appears to have climbed past 1000, which wikipedia's list of armed conflicts considers to count as a full scale war. There are several sources now referring to the conflict as a "war," such as the following:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/14/sudan-war-egypt-burhan-hemedti/
https://punchng.com/things-to-know-as-sudan-war-enters-one-month/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-65525006 209.214.231.30 ( talk) 18:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
The crisis in Sudan is no longer confined to a specific area, as was the case at the beginning of the confrontation between the Sudanese Army and the Rapid Support Forces; but has spread to wider geographical areas and has not been resolved in favor of either party. It is better to call it 2023 Sudan clashes because it describe the current situation because it has passed the crisis stage. Mr. JamesDimsey ( talk) 14:22, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
@ FuzzyMagma and Tobby72:US treasury department asserts that Wagner Group has been suppling RSF with surface-to-air missile to fight Sudan's army. [7] In light of these news it's best to reinstate Russia under combatants of RSF. Ecrusized ( talk) 20:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Itâs basically the textbook definition 2601:148:380:330:D0AC:B8D3:7577:3D92 ( talk) 13:33, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
I added the SPLM-N on the infobox but there are some objections so feel free to discuss what should be done here. Borgenland ( talk) 04:56, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
can you please change south Sudan to South Kordofan, as these are not the same. And remove the refs from the lead as per
MOS:LEDE
FuzzyMagma (
talk) 18:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Why is this still considered a "conflict"? Seems like a "war" to me. 2600:6C5C:6C7F:5E53:7477:DE4E:9DF5:981A ( talk) 00:47, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
The are reports that the fighting in Darfur is becoming another genocide. Do any of you believe that it deserves an article of its own at this point? Borgenland ( talk) 06:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Purpose before adding information to the infobox that is not first included in the article and established as a key fact FuzzyMagma ( talk) 06:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
The Casualties chapter is becoming outdated with respect to the location breakdown of Sudanese casualties with the exception of Darfur. I believe that it is time to rearrange and if necessary trim that part which I will start later. Borgenland ( talk) 18:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
See this map I saw on a news site. Also posting this on Commons discussion: https://www.dabangasudan.org/en/all-news/article/more-people-killed-in-battles-in-el-obeid-and-sudan-capital Borgenland ( talk) 14:46, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2023 Sudan conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "On 13 July, Egypt hosted a summit in Cairo, wherein the SAF, the RSF and leaders of Sudan's neighboring states agreed to a agreed to a new initiative to resolve the conflict." to "On 13 July, Egypt hosted a summit in Cairo, wherein the SAF, the RSF and leaders of Sudan's neighboring states agreed to a new initiative to resolve the conflict." Bigpoobles ( talk) 17:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
As someone who's red-green colorblind, this might be one of the worst maps I've seen. Why can't more unique colors be used instead? 134.65.164.225 ( talk) 08:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
I think it's now time to call it a civil war, many sources are now calling this a civil war, theres also now 3 belligrants and it surpassed 10k of deaths
Change from "2023 Sudan Conflict" to "Third Sudanese Civil War" Lucasmota0975 ( talk) 23:40, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
With over 10,000 deaths [12] and numerous WP:RS calling it a civil war at this point, it unfortunately is one and thus should be classified as the 2023-Present Sudanese Civil War [13], [14]. Seeking consensus for name change to 2023-Present Sudanese Civil War (or a similar title). Dilbaggg ( talk) 13:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Maybe the Fourth Sudanese Civil War will do. Dilbaggg ( talk) 13:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
what the majority of sources and therefore readers are calling this event?and it is really does not support your point of calling it the "Sudan civil was (2023-present)" .. please stop using provocative language as
hope you know how to click, what that suppose to mean?! FuzzyMagma ( talk) 19:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
Just about every martial word is being used at present is sources, sometimes 'war', sometimes 'fighting', sometimes 'conflict'- ocassionally 'civil war', never AFAI can see "Nth Sudanese Civil war". I don't know about the Myanmar events, but maybe sources have settled on a name for what has happened there - IMO they haven't yet iro Sudan. Pincrete ( talk) 07:27, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
I just listed a source that called it "Sudan's civil war," and seeing as they had two others already, that implies it is the third one. That's what we call WP:OR, if the sources thought that this was the Third Sudanese Civil War, they can probably count as well as you and would be calling it that by now.
I heard some people call the aftermath of the second Sudanese civil war the third but I think it could also refer to this or you could call it the fourth but I think third is better I want to see what people think. HuntersHistory ( talk) 23:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
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.
)
}}
31.46.139.165 (
talk) 05:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
-- Totz matez ( talk) 05:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Third Sudanese civil war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Totz matez ( talk) 05:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
Due to major news organizations calling it a war. This includes: Reuters, AP, Washington Post, France 24, and many others. Also the amount of casualities and refugees exceed "conflict" level. CatmanBw ( talk) 06:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
amount of casualities and refugees exceed "conflict" levelthis is either original reporting or there should be a source backing this statement up as it can be seen as contentious to some.
Please also update the refugee and casualty numbers in the body, not just in the infobox and introduction to ensure that this article is always up to date. Borgenland ( talk) 16:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to War in Sudan (2023). This appears to be the title supported by the majority of editors. There was also some support for inclusion of "civil war" in the title. However based on other similar move discussions I'm aware of, the description of a conflict as a "civil war" is something we don't generally do without (several) sources. Reading through this discussion, I see no sources provided to describe this (in its current state) as a civil war. If any editor can provide sources to support the inclusion of "civil war", I would encourage a separate move discussion for simplicity's sake( closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 ( talk) â 02:45, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
2023 Sudan conflict â 2023 Sudan war â As raised by CatmanBw, recent reporting by major international news organisations are moving to reporting this issue as a war rather than just a conflict. Aljazeera, VOA, Washington Post, France24, CNN, AP, Reuters. Indepedently searching for news using 'Sudan conflict' shows further reporting as 'war' or a mix of both: Aljazeera 2, France24 2, both of which are more recent articles. â robertsky ( talk) 04:22, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
would personally chooseâ .. not whatever twist youâre trying to imply. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 23:45, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Since fighting broke out between the regular army and..FuzzyMagma ( talk) 23:41, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Support Sudanese Civil War, widely being called a civil war on msm recently. Ecrusized ( talk) 20:08, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
In an article on looting ( https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-66637454) residents of Omdurman mention an undated fire at a perfume factory killing 120 people while it was being looted during the conflict. As this is a mass casualty incident, I'd like to add this but am not sure to which section. Any suggestions? Borgenland ( talk) 08:15, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
The paged wasnât moved to War in Sudan (2023) at all. UkraineFella ( talk) 09:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
https://sudantribune.com/article277603/ Lukt64 ( talk) 15:28, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
War in Sudan (2023) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
under foreign involvementâukraine, 'where behind' should be changed to 'were behind'. Tsukayamaj ( talk) 19:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
There's something odd about the Sudan Tribune references. Most (if not all) are marked as permanent dead links, but when I click through them they seem to work. I tried using a USA proxy site, that worked too. However, the wayback machine/archival website doesn't seem to be capable of viewing or saving them properly, claiming it's been blocked. I'm not sure how to fix this, but I thought it'd be something prudent to point out if it hasn't been already. Silverleaf81 ( talk) 13:03, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
I would like for it to be colorblind accessible Lukt64 ( talk) 17:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
It seems like nobody is invading, so wouldn't it be a Civil war? UB Blacephalon ( talk) 17:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
I feel like this is more consistent with outdated battle articles, and also closer to the old name "2023 Sudan Conflict" Lukt64 ( talk) 19:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
War in Sudan (2023) â Sudanese Civil War (2023) â This is a months-old conflict and is beginning to escalate again. Its time to call it a civil war. Lukt64 ( talk) 01:01, 10 October 1023 (UTC)
Hi @ Parham wiki, I see you changed War in Sudan (2023) to Part of the Russo-Ukrainian War (likely) and first and second Sudanese civil war to ArabâIsraeli conflict. Maybe they are but surely they are more part of Sudanese Civil Wars. I am not sure if you are claiming that these wars were the results of Russo-Ukrainian War or the ArabâIsraeli conflict because they are not. Foreign forces may interfered but they were not the cause so can you please amend your edit FuzzyMagma ( talk) 13:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
Nyala battle has concluded with RSF seizing full control of the city. The current map does not indicate that. â Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorgedweller ( talk âą contribs) 08:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
As of October, we now have a definite minimum toll of 9,000 as confirmed by the UN and relevant government agencies. I believe it is time to take off the minimum 4,000 range in the infobox and wherever else it is mentioned. Borgenland ( talk) 06:02, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure). There is a consensus against the proposed title as "Third" is unsupported by the sources. There was no consensus on whether the article should have some variant of "Civil War" in the title so no prejudice against a new RM with e.g. Sudanese Civil War (2023), 2023 Sudanese Civil War, etc. as a proposed title. Jenks24 ( talk) 01:55, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
War in Sudan (2023) â Third Sudanese Civil War â Multiple news outlets like The Guardian and the BBC have called it a Civil War, this is a months-old conflict and is beginning to escalate again. Its time to call it a civil war. Lukt64 ( talk) 01:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Parham wiki ( talk) 17:16, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Support We don't want to be massively late to the punch again like we were with Ethiopia. â Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:E5FD:89C0:407C:4789 (
talk) 21:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
SupportAlthough not so many sources call it "Third", its tecnically pretty much a continuation of the previous two wars, just diffrents groups at this time, and many sources are calling it a civil war, not a third, but still a civil war.
Lucasoliveira653 (
talk) 16:22, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Could you add protection to this article for edit warring? UltimateFantasyY ( talk) 00:03, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
the Darfur Alliance joined the SAF in war, should we put them and the SAF in one group in the map, as "Sudanese armed forces and allies"? Ghmrsudan ( talk) 11:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
After the capture of Ed Daein this week, the state of East Darfur was also captured fully. Could we change the map to show those recent changes? 2601:183:4281:9CD0:C54D:31AF:25B4:3B6B ( talk) 03:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
I think that the "This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably." should be considered resolved as there is enough subheading to make the entire article more easily to digest. Eason Y. Lu ( talk) 00:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Having an entire separate section on peace efforts doesn't make much sense to me, because efforts to achieve peace have not been separate from the actual fighting and as a result the 'Peace efforts' section has become bloated with one-sentence paragraphs that do not really belong in the article per WP:UNDUEWEIGHT, and which has also given the article far too many section titles that clog up navigation. I reckon that the Treaty of Jeddah (2023) and any subsequent important negotiations can be far better covered in the Course of the war section. Thoughts? Devonian Wombat ( talk) 01:38, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus, move to War in Sudan (2023âpresent). â robertsky ( talk) 04:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
or * B:
War in Sudan (2023) â
War in Sudan
or * C:
War in Sudan (2023) â
Sudanese civil war (2023âpresent)
or * D:
War in Sudan (2023) â
Sudanese civil war
or * E:
War in Sudan (2023) no change
(You can add other name suggestions if you think that it is appropriate)
With almost a week left for this year to end, I think it is about time we start the discussion for renaming this article (Admins please don't move the article before 1/1/2024)
Bremps
... 04:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
i cant edit very well on a phone, just wanted to tell you all. https://sudantribune.com/article281102/ Lukt64 ( talk) 06:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure where to incorporate this information, but here's the link: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/1/9/sudans-army-is-retaliating-against-activists-amid-the-war-for-their-role-in-bringing-down-their-former-boss-and-president-omar-al-bashir-in-april-2019
Al Jazeera is state-owned media, but for they're been relatively impartial for this topic (2023-present War in Sudan). They're not impartial with respect to the 2023 Israel-Hamas War, which is unsurprising as Qatar harbors the leaders of Hamas. JohnAdams1800 ( talk) 21:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
This clearly isn't a short post-coup conflict anymore 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:ACAC:6FC7:C632:32DE ( talk) 20:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
The latest analysis of February 2024 by German political scientist Hager Ali, writing for the German Institute for Global and Area Studies, may be useful for updating recent events of the war in Sudan. - It is an Open Access publication and can be read on the Internet and downloaded free of charge at www.giga-hamburg.de/en/publications/giga-focus. According to the conditions of the Creative-Commons license Attribution-No Derivative Works 3.0, this publication may be freely duplicated, circulated, and made accessible to the public, but NOT be copied for Wikipedia. Munfarid1 ( talk) 08:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A civil war, being a part of the so-called Elephant Trunk Revolution [1] [2] [3] 94.25.185.191 ( talk) 06:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
References
I have recently created and began working on the List of invasions in the 21st century. Obviously, this invasion and offensives amid the invasion are included in the list. I have a few short summaries already listed in the chart, but I would appreciate if anyone who is familiar with the invasion wants to help out. My current thought process is that anything significant related to the invasion/offensive needs to be mentioned in the summary. So, if anyone wants to help out, feel free to work on, improve, or completely rewrite the summaries in that list. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 19:32, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
I happened to notice that this page was being considered for addition to the in-the-news section of the main page ( here). The main sticking point seems to be the lack of substantive additions to this entry in April (the timeline article is said to be just one line per day, while this -- considerably more substantive -- entry is said not to have enough updates). Those who work on this page might want to see if there are any developments that warrant addition as the conflict is passing the one-year mark. -- SashiRolls đż · đ„ 19:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Ever since Prigozhin's death, Wagner has grown closer and closer to the Russian government and is now under direct oversight of the Russian National Guard, and all members have to sign their allegiance to the Russian government. I think we can just put Russia in the list of state supporters instead of Wagner as a non-state supporter. Game2Winter ( talk) 04:46, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
How long has the government been actively involved in the War in Sudan? Initially, the article mentioned only the conflict between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces. This seams to be the that changed the info-box. LuxembourgLover ( talk) 17:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
the map needs to be updated to show the Wad Madani offensive
i would do it but im lazy Lukt64 ( talk) 00:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) â Compassionate727 ( T· C) 21:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
War in Sudan (2023âpresent) â Sudanese civil war (2023âpresent) â The conflict is a civil war and this has become the most common name used, sources are such as Sky News: [22] (Itâs in the title.) BBC News: [23] â⊠of the year-long Sudanese civil warâ Independent: [24] â⊠during a year-long civil warâ CNN: [25] âSudan has been gripped by civil war since April 2023â. 78.170.144.248 ( talk) 14:04, 18 May 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request ( permalink). 78.170.144.248 ( talk) 15:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
The war has been going on for a year now, and many sources are now calling it a civil war. [1] [2] [3] [4]
BigRed606 ( talk) 08:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
I really hope it isn't what the Media specifically is using because the bulk of them suck at getting details right when it comes to African conflicts.
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