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Reviewer: ActuallyNeverHappened02 ( talk · contribs) 20:53, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello! :) I will be reviewing this article for GA status! I will be using the
GAProgress template below to show my progress of this review. Once I am finished, I will be placing everything in the
GATable
GAList2 template to explain what needs to be changed for GA status.
ActuallyNeverHappened02 (
a place to chalk |
a list of stuff i've done)
20:53, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
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GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
The article is well made, but there are a few issues, listed below, that need to be fixed before promotion to GA.
Both small villages and large settlements in the self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh alike have a mostly uniform Wikipedia layout in regards to naming: The romanized Armenian name is oftentimes displayed as the official name and thus in bold, while the Armenian name in the native alphabet, as well as the Azerbaijani name, are put into the native name box and formatted regularly.
Alternatively, the romanized Armenian is occasionally rendered as the common name, the name in the Armenian alphabet is "native", and the Azerbaijani name is displayed as the official name and thus in bold yet smaller than the other designations.
Excellent paradigms for this formulation are the
Martuni,
Karakend, and
Umudlu articles; the
Vank and
Chartar articles are great examples for the second option.
My call is not a political one, but one for uniformity and impartiality.
Stepanakert, among some other articles on (formerly and currently) Armenian-majority settlements, features the Armenian and Azerbaijani names side by side in the infobox. However, it would make more sense for historically Armenian-populated settlements in the current NKR to have a uniform infobox, with the Armenian name taking priority by virtue of
WP:COMMONNAME (for at least the last 98 years) and
Template:Native name. The Azerbaijani name would, of course, be also displayed by virtue of
international law.
This would self-evidently not apply to historically Azerbaijani-populated settlements in the NKAO/NKR like
Khojaly, which was only somewhat recently renamed to Ivanyan, a name which is virtually unused, even among Armenian communities.
Similarly, it would make sense for the city of
Shusha to retain its (romanized and native) Armenian name in the infobox, but subordinate to the Azerbaijani name for sake of the current status, which is to say, again, international law.
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
19:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
@
Laurel Lodged:; @
Kevo327: Thanks a lot to you two for your input. I would like to wait a little for other people to join in and opine, but I don't believe this to be a major point of contention. Either way, I'll wait, and thank you for adding your thoughts in the meantime.
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
20:20, 19 June 2021 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:ClassicYoghurt
::While Stepanakert and Shusha both have mixed Armenian and Azerbaijani history, they are in two separate socio-political situations, which is why I proposed highlighting Stepanakert AND Shusha at the same time (also for
WP:COMMONNAME purposes).
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
22:07, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
**It is truly bizarre that Grandmaster and Brandmeister—both Azerbaijani accounts with a variation of the word "master" in their name—commented on this discussion almost a month after my initial posting. Around half an hour apart. Sockpuppet investigation might be suitable sometime. (?)
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
00:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:ClassicYoghurt
*****Hey! There is a sockpuppet investigation going on against you, so opening a new one until the current one is resolved would be senseless, much like your "attempts" to foster "healthy discussions" while using ad hominem attacks.
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
19:28, 18 July 2021 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:ClassicYoghurt
*****I suggest you visit an ophthalmologist, Mastersun25.
[1]
[2]
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
19:28, 18 July 2021 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:ClassicYoghurt
References
The autonomous republic's capital, whose local names were Khankendi in Azeri and Vararakn in Armenian, was officially renamed 'Stepanakert'
The conflict over Karabagh did not end until July 1, 1923, when Baku accepted Karabagh as an autonomous region with its administrative center at Stepanakert (Khankend, Vararakn)
Your text – "Another sources claim that the settlement was built in late 18th century, as a place of rest for the heads of the Karabakh Khanate."
Your added sources:
1) Russian encyclopedia doesn't say the settlement "was built" in 18th century, morover it actually confirms Armenian historians' attestment. Quote from the source: "According to the middle century Armenian sources, settlement on the site of the present. cities under the name. Vararakn has existed since the end. 5 c. and belonged to Caucasian Albania. In 10-16 centuries. was part of the arm. of the Khachen principality, in the 16-18 centuries. arm. Melikosti Varanda. From ser. 18th century as part of the Karabakh Khanate... From the end. 18th century used the name. Khankendi (Azerb. - Khan village)."
It doesn't say "the settlement was built in late 18th century", it says From the end. 18th century.... So what you're trying to do with your text and edit is called WP:OR.
2) We can probably leave the Az source, but it has to be properly attributed like it was with long-standing article version, e.g. "Most Azerbaijani sources claim that the settlement was built in late 18th century"
3)
Verlag Dr. Köster is a
WP:SPS publisher.
ZaniGiovanni (
talk)
00:23, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
eg Russian Encyclopedia, where is it(Khankendi) already written?– yes, it is already written. are you even reading the article before editing? Quote from the section: " By the 19th century, the settlement was renamed Khankendi ("village of the khan" in Azerbaijani) [1]. Btw, 7th reference says 19th century, and it is already mentioned as “renamed”, so your edit literally doesn't provide any improvement to the article.
Accorning to Azerbaijani sources a settlement was built in late 18th century...– your change isn't properly attributed, and the long-standing version of that section is completely fine and needs no change, since no reliable source(s) say that the settlement “was built” in 18th section, and contrary to that, most sources confirm the Armenian Vararakn settlement as first. The current wording of "Most Azerbaijani sources claim that the settlement was built in late 18th century" is properly attributed, hence you were reverted. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 21:14, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Khankendi is shown once in this section as supported only by Azerbaijani sources, but it's not indeed– the claim that's attributed to Az sources is the "18th century built" claim. The Az name isn't attributed to anyone, it just says and I quote: "By the 19th century, the settlement was renamed Khankendi".
So, I'm asking now about "Vararakn remained the local Armenian name for the town until 1923", where both sources say about two names. Why is only one name reflected here?– because of chronological order? What are you even trying to say? For Armenians, the name always (or at least till the year cited) remained Vararakn, and it's correctly shown in the section. It's already noted that the name changed to Khankendi in 19th century. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 18:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello @ Jr8825:, I hope all is well. I saw that you added the “lead too short” tag on the article so I expanded the lead based on how I saw other leads formatted for different cities. I went ahead and removed the “lead too short” tag but now I realize I probably should’ve asked you if you think the lead now properly introduces the article content in enough depth? I’m open to any suggestions, i’d like to get the article to good article status (if that’s even possible for something so controversial), and a solid lead is a good start. Thank you in advance. TagaworShah (talk) 05:41, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster: Your edit is simply inaccurate. Per the sources in the article, the majority of the time during the Russian empire, from the first census in 1886-1912 the population was recorded as mostly Russian. Only the 1915 census saw an Azerbaijani majority and then by 1921 the next census was majority Armenian. Saying the population was majority Azerbaijani in the Russian empire is WP:TEND as you are misrepresenting the sources, only for a short period of the Russian empire were Azerbaijanis the majority. Also, pre soviet censuses are already discussed in detail in the demographics section, they do not belong in the lede. Please revert yourself. TagaworShah (talk) 18:53, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I do not think that there is a rule that does not allow using Russian imperial statistics, and use only Soviet ones.Statistics aren't the issue here, the issue is adhering to WP:DUE weight. One year's Azeri majority from 1915 doesn't have the same due weight as Russian or certainly Armenian populations, which have been majority (especially Armenian) for far more years. If you have arguments to present pertaining to this discussion and to WP:DUE, and how come one year's statistics of population is significant enough for the lead, then go ahead. Don't change the conversation again. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 20:02, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
It does say that you can remove a historical fact because it was short term.- Your fact is still in the appropriate section of the article, the issue here is that it isn't significant enough for the lead. Please read carefully and don't misinterpret my position, and yes, WP:WEIGHT does apply in cases such as this. One year statistic doesn't have enough significance to be included in the lead with the city's 100+ yr/o population record. And the info is only for 1915, I don't see anything abt "until early 1920s". But even then, it wouldn't change anything, and it would still be WP:UNDUE for the lead. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 20:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Though I can probably guess it, I'm frankly puzzled on why there is such a grand obsession over demographics in the lede section. While I disagree with Grandmaster's initial edit, TagaworShah's has, inconceivably, made things worse, burying important information about the town in a section whose only aim is to provide broad outlines of the town. This oneupmanship has to be tamped down. Nobody cares about the swelling size of the Russian or Azeri population in 1886 and then in 1915 and then again in 1921 in the introduction of an article. They just want to know where it is, how big its population is, and what its current status is. I'd cull it myself if I knew I wouldn't be immediately reverted and I'd trigger an editing frenzy. Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 15:00, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
@ MarshallBagramyan: Care to explain why you deleted the entire history section of the lead? I consulted multiple good and featured articles for different cities around the world to construct that, they all had the major history of the city in the lead. I heard your concerns about going into specific demographics in the lead, so I took that out but just outright deleting the entire history section from the lead? I have not seen a single good city article that has its history entirely missing from the lead. And then you also deleted sourced content from the history section, why? Statements from Raffi were given due attribution, the rest was sourced by the Russia encyclopedia, the history section is supposed to be an in depth look at the history, not a summary. TagaworShah (talk) 15:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster: The quote says that at the time of the renaming of the city to Stepanakert, the local names were Vararakn and Khankendi respectively, Payaslian implies the same thing. We are not talking about official name, it is already stated in the article that the official name changed from Vararakn to Khankendi in 1847, we are saying what the local Armenian population called it. And the city DID have a significant Armenian population before 1920, the caucasian calendar of 1915 cites a significant Armenian minority, there has always been at least some Armenians living in the settlement per the history and demographics section, and local Armenians means Armenians of the surrounding area too, who still called it by it’s original name, there was also the church of Vararakn as well in the rown that has since been destroyed in the 30s but evidences that the name was still in use by Armenians but, we already have two historians confirming that so I won’t bother with that detail. TagaworShah (talk) 17:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster: Yeah i’m more inclined to believe what modern historians have to say instead of what the soviet encyclopedia has to say, why use that when we have the Great Russian Encyclopedia published in 2016? (I know you speak russian so i’m just gonna leave it the way it is)
Согласно ср.-век. арм. источникам, поселение на месте совр. города под назв. Вараракн существовало с кон. 5 в. и относилось к Кавказской Албании. В 10–16 вв. входило в состав арм. княжества Хачен, в 16–18 вв. арм. меликства Варанда.
Or Robert Hewsen published by the University of Chicago?
Originally called Vararakn, this Armenian village on the right bank of the Gargar (Arm. Karkar) River
Or John Everett-Heath published by Oxford University? [3]
Khankendy replaced Vararakn in 1847
Originally Vararakn, renamed Khankend in 1847 during the Russian period
Or Claude Mutafian?
…the former Armenian Vararakn, then a small town
As you can see we have a multitude of reliable third party historians confirming the name Vararakn, I would understand if it was just the Armenian soviet encyclopedia (i’m not inclined to believe what the Azerbaijani soviet encyclopedia says either) but when you have this many historians confirming it, there is no denying it. TagaworShah (talk) 18:10, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Али2008 ( talk) 09:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
"Здравствуйте! Город Ханкенди является Азербайджанской территорией, видь НКР никто не признал, пожалуйста опишите его частью Азербайджанской Республики"
Али2008 ( talk) 09:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
А почему Степанакерт, видь город называется "Ханкенди"? Али2008 ( talk) 19:15, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
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217.76.13.38 ( talk) 06:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
This is Armenia Artsax. Stepanakert
Hi. Pls add Azerbaijani flag on the description part, near the name Azerbaijan in country section. 185.81.82.214 ( talk) 05:47, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Dear User, please see |Accompany flags with country names section. Using {{flag|Country}} template is the true way described here. Almost every city infobox has {{flag|Country}} template. For example see: Yerevan , Kapan , etc.. Yakamoz51 ( talk) 07:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Generally, flag icons should not be used in infoboxes, even when there is a "country", "nationality" or equivalent fieldand
Flag icons should only be inserted in infoboxes in those cases where they convey information in addition to the text. The section then continues to describe cases where the use of flags in infoboxes may be proper (and useful), like military conflicts and internaional sports event. Finally, the use of flags in human geographic articles is discussed, and the guideline states that the flag of the country and of the first-level administrative level may be used (not 'should be used').
In my opinion, there is no valid reason to have the Republic of Artsakh map in the article since the republic has de-facto dissolved and the city is under the Azerbaijani control. I did not want to edit the article before knowing your opinions. EloquentEditor ( talk) 12:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
2023, it was reported that Azerbaijani authorities had taken control of the city, with almost the entire Armenian population having forced to flee to Armenia ahead of their advancing forces.
Azerbaijan want the city population to stay but Armenian politicians in Yerevan want them to move to Armenia.
Be Neutral please? Wikipedia is the place where the poor kids learn, please don't destroy those poor kids future. 2404:C0:5410:0:0:0:9CB:6E36 ( talk) 22:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
Although the unofficial use of the name Stepanakert in the past when it was under the rule of occupying forces was somewhat acceptable (these regions were never legally part of any country other than Azerbaijan), it is now reconciled when the occupation is over and Azerbaijan has regained control of the city. It is important that the name of this article be changed to Khankendi/Xankendi in Azerbaijani for English wikipedia. 78.190.236.17 ( talk) 23:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
For neutrality, we should change “Capture by Azerbaijan” to Recapture by Azerbaijan. Camal2015 ( talk) 20:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
This and other territories of Azerbaijan that liberated on 19-20 September have own names. Ex: not Stepanakert but Khankendi DEFINETLY. Research it! 188.253.239.186 ( talk) 12:39, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
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Change "Nagorno-Karabakh" to "Karabakh Economic Region" as it is done below the map. Sources are the same as for the map's text. Iliko ( talk) 09:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
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change Stepanakert to Khankendi 188.253.239.186 ( talk) 12:41, 8 November 2023 (UTC) Please, name all Azerbaijan's regions correctly!
This section is written from the Armenian perspective. Notable Azerbaijani and other people whose examples are given below should also be added to the list.
Hezarfen (
talk)
21:16, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
The photos given under the name "Government buildings" are incorrect. There are no buildings named "The National Assembly", "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs" and "Government building" in Khankendi city. Photos containing this outdated information should be removed. Hezarfen ( talk) 21:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Khankendi is de facto and de jure administered by the Republic of Azerbaijan. There is no administrative structure under the so-called artsakh. This section needs to be removed. Hezarfen ( talk) 21:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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80.69.53.140 ( talk) 10:47, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Khankandi is an internationally recognised part of Azerbaijan and according to UN laws, Sovereign countries have the right for choosing toponyms in their territory. Wikipedia is violating international laws by resisting against changing the names of the page. Government of Azerbaijan will take legal actions against Wikipedia if you keep doing this. Don't cry later! Aydinyol ( talk) 08:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus to move at the moment. Let's wait for a couple more months to see if newer sources are more consistent in using either name as the primary name (if both are used) or common name. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 20:56, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Stepanakert → Khankendi – Due to recent events, control of the city and region has shifted. Reflecting this, English-language sources have now started using Khankendi as the WP:COMMONNAME for the city instead of Stepanakert. This is demonstrated in sources like the Associated Press, Al Jazeera, the BBC, France 24, and more. Remember that due to WP:NAMECHANGES, extra weight is given here. Also at times, English-language sources use both names of the city at the same time, but very rarely is the city only referred to as Stepanakert since Azerbaijan has taken control. After all, it is fully integrated into the country today, and I think that sources have reflected this change in the way they refer to the city. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 19:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans ( talk) 18:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Seeing as for the past 100 years the city has been known as Stepanakert, where it became a regional capital and then a breakaway capital, reaching 75,000 people who all call it Stepanakert, even in exile, and now the city has lost its importance and become a ghost town, its safe to say the numerous consensus’ that have been reached regarding Stepanakert as the common name in English still stand; it's not based in any factual interpretation of the current situation or in any Wikipedia guidelines. Who said that the city has "lost its importance"? I would suggest refraining from saying such opinionated statements. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 18:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Khankendi, which Armenians referred to as Stepanakert, showing the preferred current usage of Khankendi as the COMMONNAME today. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 19:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
locals still call it Urfa, which is the English language common name. These sources are doing the same thing, all of them mention Stepanakert alongside Khankendi, it’s never just Khankendi. The specific article you’re referring to is referencing the Artsakh republic when they said “called,” Armenians still call it Stepanakert and that is reflected in all the RS who mention it as Stepanakert to the Armenians, who btw are still the entire local population of the city even with only 50-1000 people left, and they still call their city Stepanakert. Also AFP just last month wrote an article titled
Stepanakert Streets Empty After Azerbaijani Operation In Nagorno-Karabakh[9] where they said
The streets of Stepanakert, known as Khankendi in Azerbaijanithis was also after the flight of the Karabakh Armenians and the assumption of de facto control of the area by Azerbaijan. All the sources continue to use Stepanakert, which means it remains the common name even if Khankendi is used beside it due to official purposes like Sanliurfa and Urfa. There is no evidence that the name Stepanakert is no longer widely used in English sources. TagaworShah (talk) 23:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
All the sources continue to use Stepanakert" — that's not what I'm seeing.
it remains the common name even if Khankendi is used beside it due to official purposes" — from the sources I am seeing, it's actually the opposite; I see Stepanakert being mentioned for contextual purposes, but not as the common name. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 03:57, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
All the sources continue to use Stepanakert— that's just blatantly untrue. A very reliable, reputable, international, third-party source such as the Associated Press is referring to the city as "Khankendi" over "Stepanakert", as shown here. AP is saying
Khankendi, which Armenians called Stepanakert; this is quite clear in what the common name is. And as you know, articles by the Associated Press are diffused all over the world by its associated newspapers and websites, from here to here to here. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 04:08, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Discussion by non-ECP editors that are not allowed to participate in move discussions in the Armenia-Azerbaijan topic due to GS/AA Donald Albury 20:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC) |
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Discussion by non-ECP editors that are not allowed to participate in move discussions in the Armenia-Azerbaijan topic due to GS/AA Donald Albury 13:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC) |
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Discussion by non-ECP editors that are not allowed to participate in move discussions in the Armenia-Azerbaijan topic due to GS/AA Donald Albury 14:44, 29 November 2023 (UTC) |
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COMMENT : Here are some recent sources that uses Khankendi as primary name:
Maps, news, dictionaries, databases already use Khankendi. So it is very diffucult to say it is premature. Yakamoz51 ( talk) 09:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Why still name of article is Stepanakert? It is already in a control of Azerbaijan. It is not Stepanakert. It should be changed to Khankendi -- Əhməd Qurbanov ( talk) 21:21, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
after September conflicts in Qarabağ this city is controling by Azerbijan so we should change the name of article Abolfazlyashar ( talk) 16:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Dear @ RadioactiveBoulevardier, I followed your arguments in the discussion article. There are issues you are right about. However, there are also controversial issues in this ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)) article.
In addition to these arguments, the city is completely under Azerbaijani control. The lands in question are considered Azerbaijani territory by the United Nations. (Kindly check city names of Turkish Republic Northern Cyprus).
For the above reasons, I recommend changing the name of the page to Khankendi. Emreculha ( talk) 22:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Discussion by non-ECP editors that are not allowed to participate in move discussions in the Armenia-Azerbaijan topic due to GS/AA signed, Rosguill talk 16:30, 16 October 2023 (UTC) |
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The city is under the full jurisdiction of Azerbaijan, which is proven by the latest visit of President of Azerbaijan Aliyev to the city. Besides, world-known media such as ABC News [14], Reuters [15], and even France24, which is known for pro-Armenian coverages, [16] have started presenting Khankendi as the main name and adding "known as Stepanakert by Armenians". Thus, the article's name must certainly be renamed to Khankendi as it is stated in WP:COMMON. EloquentEditor ( talk) 08:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
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As Emreculha and EloquentEditor mentioned above and I add more, English media use both names. But they usually use Khankendi as the main name and add "known as Stepanakert to Armenians". BBC: the city of Khankendi, known as Stepanakert to Armenians VOA News 1, VOA News 2, The Times , , Reuters 1, Reuters 2 , AP 1, AP 2, AP 3 ABC News, and even France24 says "the city of Khankendi, known as Stepanakert to Armenians".
The World Factbook maintained by the Central Intelligence Agency updated the name of this city as Khankendi Factbook
Given that big media outlets, CIA factbook, and all the current residents of the city use Khankendi , we can definitely say that it is the current common name of the city. Yakamoz51 ( talk) 09:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Discussion by non-ECP editors that are not allowed to participate in move discussions in the Armenia-Azerbaijan topic due to GS/AA Donald Albury 12:18, 24 October 2023 (UTC) |
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Discussion by non-ECP editors that are not allowed to participate in move discussions in the Armenia-Azerbaijan topic due to GS/AA Donald Albury 12:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC) |
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Only Khankendi, no StepanakertAn unrecognized state in Nagorno-Karabakh no longer exists, the city of Khankendi is completely under the control of Azerbaijan, they even hung a state flag there. But the Armenian moderator cancel edits about renaming the city, leaving the unrecognized and irrelevant name “Stepanakert”. Please make the title "Khankendi" in the article 109.87.192.15 ( talk) 15:58, 22 October 2023 (UTC) The name of this city is de jure and de facto "Khankendi"The flag of Azerbaijan has been raised in "Khankendi" and de facto Azerbaijani rule have been established! All international organizations states that this citys name is "Khankendi" and all the countries recognized by the UN (legitimate states) refers the name of this as "Khankendi". The source below (which is neutral and well recognized) states that the flag of the Azerbaijani republic have been raised and de facto sovereign control has been established by the republic of Azerbaijan. Therefore the title "Stepanakert" needs to be edited to its original name of the settlement, which is "Khankendi". https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20231015-azerbaijan-president-raises-national-flag-in-nagorno-karabakh-capital HistoricalFactCheckX ( talk) 10:35, 23 October 2023 (UTC) |
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Reviewer: ActuallyNeverHappened02 ( talk · contribs) 20:53, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello! :) I will be reviewing this article for GA status! I will be using the
GAProgress template below to show my progress of this review. Once I am finished, I will be placing everything in the
GATable
GAList2 template to explain what needs to be changed for GA status.
ActuallyNeverHappened02 (
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20:53, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
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GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
The article is well made, but there are a few issues, listed below, that need to be fixed before promotion to GA.
Both small villages and large settlements in the self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh alike have a mostly uniform Wikipedia layout in regards to naming: The romanized Armenian name is oftentimes displayed as the official name and thus in bold, while the Armenian name in the native alphabet, as well as the Azerbaijani name, are put into the native name box and formatted regularly.
Alternatively, the romanized Armenian is occasionally rendered as the common name, the name in the Armenian alphabet is "native", and the Azerbaijani name is displayed as the official name and thus in bold yet smaller than the other designations.
Excellent paradigms for this formulation are the
Martuni,
Karakend, and
Umudlu articles; the
Vank and
Chartar articles are great examples for the second option.
My call is not a political one, but one for uniformity and impartiality.
Stepanakert, among some other articles on (formerly and currently) Armenian-majority settlements, features the Armenian and Azerbaijani names side by side in the infobox. However, it would make more sense for historically Armenian-populated settlements in the current NKR to have a uniform infobox, with the Armenian name taking priority by virtue of
WP:COMMONNAME (for at least the last 98 years) and
Template:Native name. The Azerbaijani name would, of course, be also displayed by virtue of
international law.
This would self-evidently not apply to historically Azerbaijani-populated settlements in the NKAO/NKR like
Khojaly, which was only somewhat recently renamed to Ivanyan, a name which is virtually unused, even among Armenian communities.
Similarly, it would make sense for the city of
Shusha to retain its (romanized and native) Armenian name in the infobox, but subordinate to the Azerbaijani name for sake of the current status, which is to say, again, international law.
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
19:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
@
Laurel Lodged:; @
Kevo327: Thanks a lot to you two for your input. I would like to wait a little for other people to join in and opine, but I don't believe this to be a major point of contention. Either way, I'll wait, and thank you for adding your thoughts in the meantime.
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
20:20, 19 June 2021 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:ClassicYoghurt
::While Stepanakert and Shusha both have mixed Armenian and Azerbaijani history, they are in two separate socio-political situations, which is why I proposed highlighting Stepanakert AND Shusha at the same time (also for
WP:COMMONNAME purposes).
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
22:07, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
**It is truly bizarre that Grandmaster and Brandmeister—both Azerbaijani accounts with a variation of the word "master" in their name—commented on this discussion almost a month after my initial posting. Around half an hour apart. Sockpuppet investigation might be suitable sometime. (?)
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
00:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:ClassicYoghurt
*****Hey! There is a sockpuppet investigation going on against you, so opening a new one until the current one is resolved would be senseless, much like your "attempts" to foster "healthy discussions" while using ad hominem attacks.
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
19:28, 18 July 2021 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:ClassicYoghurt
*****I suggest you visit an ophthalmologist, Mastersun25.
[1]
[2]
BaxçeyêReş (
talk)
19:28, 18 July 2021 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:ClassicYoghurt
References
The autonomous republic's capital, whose local names were Khankendi in Azeri and Vararakn in Armenian, was officially renamed 'Stepanakert'
The conflict over Karabagh did not end until July 1, 1923, when Baku accepted Karabagh as an autonomous region with its administrative center at Stepanakert (Khankend, Vararakn)
Your text – "Another sources claim that the settlement was built in late 18th century, as a place of rest for the heads of the Karabakh Khanate."
Your added sources:
1) Russian encyclopedia doesn't say the settlement "was built" in 18th century, morover it actually confirms Armenian historians' attestment. Quote from the source: "According to the middle century Armenian sources, settlement on the site of the present. cities under the name. Vararakn has existed since the end. 5 c. and belonged to Caucasian Albania. In 10-16 centuries. was part of the arm. of the Khachen principality, in the 16-18 centuries. arm. Melikosti Varanda. From ser. 18th century as part of the Karabakh Khanate... From the end. 18th century used the name. Khankendi (Azerb. - Khan village)."
It doesn't say "the settlement was built in late 18th century", it says From the end. 18th century.... So what you're trying to do with your text and edit is called WP:OR.
2) We can probably leave the Az source, but it has to be properly attributed like it was with long-standing article version, e.g. "Most Azerbaijani sources claim that the settlement was built in late 18th century"
3)
Verlag Dr. Köster is a
WP:SPS publisher.
ZaniGiovanni (
talk)
00:23, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
eg Russian Encyclopedia, where is it(Khankendi) already written?– yes, it is already written. are you even reading the article before editing? Quote from the section: " By the 19th century, the settlement was renamed Khankendi ("village of the khan" in Azerbaijani) [1]. Btw, 7th reference says 19th century, and it is already mentioned as “renamed”, so your edit literally doesn't provide any improvement to the article.
Accorning to Azerbaijani sources a settlement was built in late 18th century...– your change isn't properly attributed, and the long-standing version of that section is completely fine and needs no change, since no reliable source(s) say that the settlement “was built” in 18th section, and contrary to that, most sources confirm the Armenian Vararakn settlement as first. The current wording of "Most Azerbaijani sources claim that the settlement was built in late 18th century" is properly attributed, hence you were reverted. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 21:14, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Khankendi is shown once in this section as supported only by Azerbaijani sources, but it's not indeed– the claim that's attributed to Az sources is the "18th century built" claim. The Az name isn't attributed to anyone, it just says and I quote: "By the 19th century, the settlement was renamed Khankendi".
So, I'm asking now about "Vararakn remained the local Armenian name for the town until 1923", where both sources say about two names. Why is only one name reflected here?– because of chronological order? What are you even trying to say? For Armenians, the name always (or at least till the year cited) remained Vararakn, and it's correctly shown in the section. It's already noted that the name changed to Khankendi in 19th century. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 18:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello @ Jr8825:, I hope all is well. I saw that you added the “lead too short” tag on the article so I expanded the lead based on how I saw other leads formatted for different cities. I went ahead and removed the “lead too short” tag but now I realize I probably should’ve asked you if you think the lead now properly introduces the article content in enough depth? I’m open to any suggestions, i’d like to get the article to good article status (if that’s even possible for something so controversial), and a solid lead is a good start. Thank you in advance. TagaworShah (talk) 05:41, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster: Your edit is simply inaccurate. Per the sources in the article, the majority of the time during the Russian empire, from the first census in 1886-1912 the population was recorded as mostly Russian. Only the 1915 census saw an Azerbaijani majority and then by 1921 the next census was majority Armenian. Saying the population was majority Azerbaijani in the Russian empire is WP:TEND as you are misrepresenting the sources, only for a short period of the Russian empire were Azerbaijanis the majority. Also, pre soviet censuses are already discussed in detail in the demographics section, they do not belong in the lede. Please revert yourself. TagaworShah (talk) 18:53, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I do not think that there is a rule that does not allow using Russian imperial statistics, and use only Soviet ones.Statistics aren't the issue here, the issue is adhering to WP:DUE weight. One year's Azeri majority from 1915 doesn't have the same due weight as Russian or certainly Armenian populations, which have been majority (especially Armenian) for far more years. If you have arguments to present pertaining to this discussion and to WP:DUE, and how come one year's statistics of population is significant enough for the lead, then go ahead. Don't change the conversation again. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 20:02, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
It does say that you can remove a historical fact because it was short term.- Your fact is still in the appropriate section of the article, the issue here is that it isn't significant enough for the lead. Please read carefully and don't misinterpret my position, and yes, WP:WEIGHT does apply in cases such as this. One year statistic doesn't have enough significance to be included in the lead with the city's 100+ yr/o population record. And the info is only for 1915, I don't see anything abt "until early 1920s". But even then, it wouldn't change anything, and it would still be WP:UNDUE for the lead. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 20:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Though I can probably guess it, I'm frankly puzzled on why there is such a grand obsession over demographics in the lede section. While I disagree with Grandmaster's initial edit, TagaworShah's has, inconceivably, made things worse, burying important information about the town in a section whose only aim is to provide broad outlines of the town. This oneupmanship has to be tamped down. Nobody cares about the swelling size of the Russian or Azeri population in 1886 and then in 1915 and then again in 1921 in the introduction of an article. They just want to know where it is, how big its population is, and what its current status is. I'd cull it myself if I knew I wouldn't be immediately reverted and I'd trigger an editing frenzy. Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 15:00, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
@ MarshallBagramyan: Care to explain why you deleted the entire history section of the lead? I consulted multiple good and featured articles for different cities around the world to construct that, they all had the major history of the city in the lead. I heard your concerns about going into specific demographics in the lead, so I took that out but just outright deleting the entire history section from the lead? I have not seen a single good city article that has its history entirely missing from the lead. And then you also deleted sourced content from the history section, why? Statements from Raffi were given due attribution, the rest was sourced by the Russia encyclopedia, the history section is supposed to be an in depth look at the history, not a summary. TagaworShah (talk) 15:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster: The quote says that at the time of the renaming of the city to Stepanakert, the local names were Vararakn and Khankendi respectively, Payaslian implies the same thing. We are not talking about official name, it is already stated in the article that the official name changed from Vararakn to Khankendi in 1847, we are saying what the local Armenian population called it. And the city DID have a significant Armenian population before 1920, the caucasian calendar of 1915 cites a significant Armenian minority, there has always been at least some Armenians living in the settlement per the history and demographics section, and local Armenians means Armenians of the surrounding area too, who still called it by it’s original name, there was also the church of Vararakn as well in the rown that has since been destroyed in the 30s but evidences that the name was still in use by Armenians but, we already have two historians confirming that so I won’t bother with that detail. TagaworShah (talk) 17:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster: Yeah i’m more inclined to believe what modern historians have to say instead of what the soviet encyclopedia has to say, why use that when we have the Great Russian Encyclopedia published in 2016? (I know you speak russian so i’m just gonna leave it the way it is)
Согласно ср.-век. арм. источникам, поселение на месте совр. города под назв. Вараракн существовало с кон. 5 в. и относилось к Кавказской Албании. В 10–16 вв. входило в состав арм. княжества Хачен, в 16–18 вв. арм. меликства Варанда.
Or Robert Hewsen published by the University of Chicago?
Originally called Vararakn, this Armenian village on the right bank of the Gargar (Arm. Karkar) River
Or John Everett-Heath published by Oxford University? [3]
Khankendy replaced Vararakn in 1847
Originally Vararakn, renamed Khankend in 1847 during the Russian period
Or Claude Mutafian?
…the former Armenian Vararakn, then a small town
As you can see we have a multitude of reliable third party historians confirming the name Vararakn, I would understand if it was just the Armenian soviet encyclopedia (i’m not inclined to believe what the Azerbaijani soviet encyclopedia says either) but when you have this many historians confirming it, there is no denying it. TagaworShah (talk) 18:10, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:31, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
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Али2008 ( talk) 09:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
"Здравствуйте! Город Ханкенди является Азербайджанской территорией, видь НКР никто не признал, пожалуйста опишите его частью Азербайджанской Республики"
Али2008 ( talk) 09:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
А почему Степанакерт, видь город называется "Ханкенди"? Али2008 ( talk) 19:15, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
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217.76.13.38 ( talk) 06:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
This is Armenia Artsax. Stepanakert
Hi. Pls add Azerbaijani flag on the description part, near the name Azerbaijan in country section. 185.81.82.214 ( talk) 05:47, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Dear User, please see |Accompany flags with country names section. Using {{flag|Country}} template is the true way described here. Almost every city infobox has {{flag|Country}} template. For example see: Yerevan , Kapan , etc.. Yakamoz51 ( talk) 07:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Generally, flag icons should not be used in infoboxes, even when there is a "country", "nationality" or equivalent fieldand
Flag icons should only be inserted in infoboxes in those cases where they convey information in addition to the text. The section then continues to describe cases where the use of flags in infoboxes may be proper (and useful), like military conflicts and internaional sports event. Finally, the use of flags in human geographic articles is discussed, and the guideline states that the flag of the country and of the first-level administrative level may be used (not 'should be used').
In my opinion, there is no valid reason to have the Republic of Artsakh map in the article since the republic has de-facto dissolved and the city is under the Azerbaijani control. I did not want to edit the article before knowing your opinions. EloquentEditor ( talk) 12:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
2023, it was reported that Azerbaijani authorities had taken control of the city, with almost the entire Armenian population having forced to flee to Armenia ahead of their advancing forces.
Azerbaijan want the city population to stay but Armenian politicians in Yerevan want them to move to Armenia.
Be Neutral please? Wikipedia is the place where the poor kids learn, please don't destroy those poor kids future. 2404:C0:5410:0:0:0:9CB:6E36 ( talk) 22:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
Although the unofficial use of the name Stepanakert in the past when it was under the rule of occupying forces was somewhat acceptable (these regions were never legally part of any country other than Azerbaijan), it is now reconciled when the occupation is over and Azerbaijan has regained control of the city. It is important that the name of this article be changed to Khankendi/Xankendi in Azerbaijani for English wikipedia. 78.190.236.17 ( talk) 23:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
For neutrality, we should change “Capture by Azerbaijan” to Recapture by Azerbaijan. Camal2015 ( talk) 20:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
This and other territories of Azerbaijan that liberated on 19-20 September have own names. Ex: not Stepanakert but Khankendi DEFINETLY. Research it! 188.253.239.186 ( talk) 12:39, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
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Change "Nagorno-Karabakh" to "Karabakh Economic Region" as it is done below the map. Sources are the same as for the map's text. Iliko ( talk) 09:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
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change Stepanakert to Khankendi 188.253.239.186 ( talk) 12:41, 8 November 2023 (UTC) Please, name all Azerbaijan's regions correctly!
This section is written from the Armenian perspective. Notable Azerbaijani and other people whose examples are given below should also be added to the list.
Hezarfen (
talk)
21:16, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
The photos given under the name "Government buildings" are incorrect. There are no buildings named "The National Assembly", "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs" and "Government building" in Khankendi city. Photos containing this outdated information should be removed. Hezarfen ( talk) 21:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Khankendi is de facto and de jure administered by the Republic of Azerbaijan. There is no administrative structure under the so-called artsakh. This section needs to be removed. Hezarfen ( talk) 21:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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80.69.53.140 ( talk) 10:47, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Khankandi is an internationally recognised part of Azerbaijan and according to UN laws, Sovereign countries have the right for choosing toponyms in their territory. Wikipedia is violating international laws by resisting against changing the names of the page. Government of Azerbaijan will take legal actions against Wikipedia if you keep doing this. Don't cry later! Aydinyol ( talk) 08:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus to move at the moment. Let's wait for a couple more months to see if newer sources are more consistent in using either name as the primary name (if both are used) or common name. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 20:56, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Stepanakert → Khankendi – Due to recent events, control of the city and region has shifted. Reflecting this, English-language sources have now started using Khankendi as the WP:COMMONNAME for the city instead of Stepanakert. This is demonstrated in sources like the Associated Press, Al Jazeera, the BBC, France 24, and more. Remember that due to WP:NAMECHANGES, extra weight is given here. Also at times, English-language sources use both names of the city at the same time, but very rarely is the city only referred to as Stepanakert since Azerbaijan has taken control. After all, it is fully integrated into the country today, and I think that sources have reflected this change in the way they refer to the city. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 19:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans ( talk) 18:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Seeing as for the past 100 years the city has been known as Stepanakert, where it became a regional capital and then a breakaway capital, reaching 75,000 people who all call it Stepanakert, even in exile, and now the city has lost its importance and become a ghost town, its safe to say the numerous consensus’ that have been reached regarding Stepanakert as the common name in English still stand; it's not based in any factual interpretation of the current situation or in any Wikipedia guidelines. Who said that the city has "lost its importance"? I would suggest refraining from saying such opinionated statements. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 18:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Khankendi, which Armenians referred to as Stepanakert, showing the preferred current usage of Khankendi as the COMMONNAME today. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 19:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
locals still call it Urfa, which is the English language common name. These sources are doing the same thing, all of them mention Stepanakert alongside Khankendi, it’s never just Khankendi. The specific article you’re referring to is referencing the Artsakh republic when they said “called,” Armenians still call it Stepanakert and that is reflected in all the RS who mention it as Stepanakert to the Armenians, who btw are still the entire local population of the city even with only 50-1000 people left, and they still call their city Stepanakert. Also AFP just last month wrote an article titled
Stepanakert Streets Empty After Azerbaijani Operation In Nagorno-Karabakh[9] where they said
The streets of Stepanakert, known as Khankendi in Azerbaijanithis was also after the flight of the Karabakh Armenians and the assumption of de facto control of the area by Azerbaijan. All the sources continue to use Stepanakert, which means it remains the common name even if Khankendi is used beside it due to official purposes like Sanliurfa and Urfa. There is no evidence that the name Stepanakert is no longer widely used in English sources. TagaworShah (talk) 23:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
All the sources continue to use Stepanakert" — that's not what I'm seeing.
it remains the common name even if Khankendi is used beside it due to official purposes" — from the sources I am seeing, it's actually the opposite; I see Stepanakert being mentioned for contextual purposes, but not as the common name. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 03:57, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
All the sources continue to use Stepanakert— that's just blatantly untrue. A very reliable, reputable, international, third-party source such as the Associated Press is referring to the city as "Khankendi" over "Stepanakert", as shown here. AP is saying
Khankendi, which Armenians called Stepanakert; this is quite clear in what the common name is. And as you know, articles by the Associated Press are diffused all over the world by its associated newspapers and websites, from here to here to here. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 04:08, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
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COMMENT : Here are some recent sources that uses Khankendi as primary name:
Maps, news, dictionaries, databases already use Khankendi. So it is very diffucult to say it is premature. Yakamoz51 ( talk) 09:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Why still name of article is Stepanakert? It is already in a control of Azerbaijan. It is not Stepanakert. It should be changed to Khankendi -- Əhməd Qurbanov ( talk) 21:21, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
after September conflicts in Qarabağ this city is controling by Azerbijan so we should change the name of article Abolfazlyashar ( talk) 16:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Dear @ RadioactiveBoulevardier, I followed your arguments in the discussion article. There are issues you are right about. However, there are also controversial issues in this ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)) article.
In addition to these arguments, the city is completely under Azerbaijani control. The lands in question are considered Azerbaijani territory by the United Nations. (Kindly check city names of Turkish Republic Northern Cyprus).
For the above reasons, I recommend changing the name of the page to Khankendi. Emreculha ( talk) 22:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
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The city is under the full jurisdiction of Azerbaijan, which is proven by the latest visit of President of Azerbaijan Aliyev to the city. Besides, world-known media such as ABC News [14], Reuters [15], and even France24, which is known for pro-Armenian coverages, [16] have started presenting Khankendi as the main name and adding "known as Stepanakert by Armenians". Thus, the article's name must certainly be renamed to Khankendi as it is stated in WP:COMMON. EloquentEditor ( talk) 08:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
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As Emreculha and EloquentEditor mentioned above and I add more, English media use both names. But they usually use Khankendi as the main name and add "known as Stepanakert to Armenians". BBC: the city of Khankendi, known as Stepanakert to Armenians VOA News 1, VOA News 2, The Times , , Reuters 1, Reuters 2 , AP 1, AP 2, AP 3 ABC News, and even France24 says "the city of Khankendi, known as Stepanakert to Armenians".
The World Factbook maintained by the Central Intelligence Agency updated the name of this city as Khankendi Factbook
Given that big media outlets, CIA factbook, and all the current residents of the city use Khankendi , we can definitely say that it is the current common name of the city. Yakamoz51 ( talk) 09:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
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Only Khankendi, no StepanakertAn unrecognized state in Nagorno-Karabakh no longer exists, the city of Khankendi is completely under the control of Azerbaijan, they even hung a state flag there. But the Armenian moderator cancel edits about renaming the city, leaving the unrecognized and irrelevant name “Stepanakert”. Please make the title "Khankendi" in the article 109.87.192.15 ( talk) 15:58, 22 October 2023 (UTC) The name of this city is de jure and de facto "Khankendi"The flag of Azerbaijan has been raised in "Khankendi" and de facto Azerbaijani rule have been established! All international organizations states that this citys name is "Khankendi" and all the countries recognized by the UN (legitimate states) refers the name of this as "Khankendi". The source below (which is neutral and well recognized) states that the flag of the Azerbaijani republic have been raised and de facto sovereign control has been established by the republic of Azerbaijan. Therefore the title "Stepanakert" needs to be edited to its original name of the settlement, which is "Khankendi". https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20231015-azerbaijan-president-raises-national-flag-in-nagorno-karabakh-capital HistoricalFactCheckX ( talk) 10:35, 23 October 2023 (UTC) |