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On 10 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Statistical correlations of criminal behaviour to Correlates of crime. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Does the corresponding Metapedia page reliable? Does it contain the missing information from the Wikipedia page? https://en. metapedia .org/wiki/Race_and_crime — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.114.48.186 ( talk) 19:05, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details were available on the "Education Program:University of Ontario Institute of Technology/Critical Race Theory (Winter 2015)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
This article does not provide much detail in regards to the statistical correlation of criminal behaviour. I will be adding adding more information to the Race, ethnicity, and immigration stub by specifically looking at the correlation between race and criminal behaviour in Canada.
Does no one else notice or is concerned with the fact that the vast majority of subheadings and correlative claims in this article originate from a single source? Many of the statements made are also contradictory with other statistical analysis (such as higher crime rates in more religious states or lower proportions of atheists in jail compared to the public). Unless someone provides a validation for the apparent issues, I will return to mark the article as lacking research and biased, as there is no alternative views, explanations, or research.
166.147.104.23 (
talk)
09:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
This article either needs more sources or it needs to be scrapped. It's basically a summary of a book at this point. 114.77.28.246 ( talk) 11:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, this article also seems very US-centered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.7.24 ( talk) 01:36, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Article seems to be a compilation of different reasonings about how one may act in relation to crime and punishment. I do think the psychological aspect is correct, however, this piece may be questionable, as I think it is WP:SYNTH of material that is available on Wikipedia. Also, no cites to any outside published works that may give this article reason to live, thus WP:OR. Would the author reconsider these points before I contest the removed PROD? Phearson ( talk) 05:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Missing a major cause I am surprised that this article fails to mention environmental lead as a cause of crime, particularly violent crime. This summary from 2005 gives the basic findings, and the study has (so far as I know) held up over time---and makes sense. I think some text and a link should be included. Montereyham ( talk) 20:54, 9 December 2011 (UTC). Done, 1 March 2014 (anon).
I can't say I entirely agree with the premise of this article. Certain occurrences lead to certain other occurrences - that, I suspect, we can take for granted. My question, though, is whether this topic should deal with the cause-effect path from a causative premise, as this article does, or from the point of view of the effects. In other words, should this article be Causes and correlates of crime or Effects of ... with the latter being any of the events, circumstances, etc that can lead to crime.
I also have to question the statistics mentioned in this article. Not having access to the source, the casual reader will have no idea when or where the data was obtained. Aside from a single mention of America, there is no indication of from which cultural perspective this article has been written.
Regarding cultural perspectives, it is verifiable that different cultures and different countries have different views of what constitutes crime. It needs to be made clear here what is considered crime. Are we talking violent crime, assault with a deadly weapon, car theft and the like? At the moment, the article seems to focus on the criminal activity of, for want of a better term, "social dropouts". What about fraud, corruption and similar "white-collar" crimes?
There is contention, too, in the psychological traits of criminal activity. I've seen several that could suggest I should have been a criminal. That being the case, those points really need to be expanded and clarified. Perhaps those sections should be merged into Crime, if they're not already there.
Basically, the structure of the article seems logical but without elaborating on each cause/correlate as is done in the various other articles, the overall effect is to make the topic seem simplistic.
LordVetinari ( talk) 13:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
I have added something about the main source. There is a vast literature on the subject. It is very strange that Wikipedia did not have an article on what causes crime. Obviously this is of major interest for society and the areas has been much studied. Miradre ( talk) 14:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
This article is still very poor, it would be better just to remove it. Most of the claims are from the same source, and many of them are highly questionable. Such as this one: "High religious involvement, high importance of religion in one's life, membership in an organized religion, and orthodox religious beliefs are associated with less criminality. Areas with higher religious membership have lower crime rates.". Makes me wonder how it can be that some of the least religious countries in the world, such as Denmark and Norway, tend to be among the better countries in many (most?) crime statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.90.195.55 ( talk • contribs)
Why is this pseudoscientific theory included in the article?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.3.79 ( talk) 23:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Hello?-- 67.85.3.79 ( talk) 03:05, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Maunus, who I have frequently had disputes with in the past, has suddenly moved this article, which I have created and contributed much of the material to, without prior discussions on the talk page. It was moved to "Correlates of crime" from the earlier title "Causes and correlates of crime". It is false to claim that it only discusses correlations. For example, there is a section about theories that claim causality. I will move the material back to prior title unless some good justifications are given. Academica Orientalis ( talk) 20:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
To add a quick reply to my more detailed comment in the section below, statistically speaking the current title ("correlates") is actually less misleading than the previous title ("causes and correlates"), because causality is usually seen as a special case of correlation. With regards to how well the title reflects the intended content of the article, both titles are acceptable really. The issue is just that the old title could mislead the untrained reader to think that correlation and causation are totally separate concepts. (Also, Whether Maunusl should have discussed the matter before the move is an entirely separate issue.) Well-rested Talk 14:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Should this article be called "Causes and Correlates of Crime" (and therefore treat statistical correlations and theories of causality together) or just be called "Correlates of Crime" (which better describes the current content of the article that does not provide any information at all about criminological theories of crime causation). Or should it have a different title all together? ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 21:18, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
The article as it currently stands should be moved back to Causes and correlates of crime, since it covers both of these closely related topics. It seems doubtful that it would be possible to conclusively differentiate causes from correlates. If it is possible to clearly differentiate them, then we could consider splitting the article into separate articles, one on causes and another on correlates; however it is not clear that such a division would be helpful (there might be other ways of dividing the article if it gets too long). Those advocating such a split should give some outline of which material would go into which article. Contrary to what ʍaunus says, the current article does contain information on causes of crime (whether those causes are "criminological" or not, I don't know).
I added a heading for the portion of the discussion that was "closed" just to make it clearer that discussion is continuing, and where to contribute. On that head, requested moves seems like the more obvious place to publicize this discussion. Unless it violates some rule, perhaps you should go ahead and list it here as well. Zodon ( talk) 05:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Greetings! I'm new to this discussion but let's hope I'm able to contribute. If this fact adds anything at all, I'm a statistician, or at least I use statistics quite extensively in my work/research. My opinion in summary, is that the article's title can be kept (as "Correlates of crime"), because in the context of academic research causal relationships are subsets of just correlation relationships (i.e. all causal relationships are also "correlation relationships", for lack of a better phrase). I'll list my detailed reasoning in point form ('cos I love bullet points):
Additional recommendations:
Just my two cents! - Well-rested Talk 12:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Hey guys, instead of looking at how various wordings of the title may mislead uninformed readers (which is probably a dead end in the debate since i think uninformed readers may find either title misleading, like I mentioned above), how about we look at the terminology used in crime research? I'm not an expert in criminology so it would be great if someone more knowledgeable could contribute, but just throwing out some references:
These would suggest to me that it really doesn't matter that much how the article is titled, as long as it's clear that the article is dealing with both correlation and causation (since a lot of research naturally proves both at the same time). I've also found that both the phrases "causes of crime" and "causes and correlates of crime" a both used extensively, so it's a bit hard to say which term is more popular. Well-rested Talk 03:58, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I had to remove the {hat} section as it was erasing any discussion below
High religious involvement, high importance of religion in one's life, membership in an organized religion, and orthodox religious beliefs are associated with less criminality. Areas with higher religious membership have lower crime rates.
I have seen quite a few studies showing an inverse correlation between secularism and crime. (Somehow typed this backwards) In general I'm finding this article quite concerning as it states correlation very strongly when it has just a single citation given almost across the entire article.
The false equivalency is the difference between crime rates based on incarceration and crime rates based on actual crime rates by socioeconomic class. For example many government studies have been done that show that as socioeconomic class goes up illegal drug use goes up among young adults. The problem is that these groups are not targeted and are never charged with a crime therefore the correlations are being misrepresented based on the assumption that incarceration rates by class and race are the same thing as actual crime rates by race and class etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.27.13.2 ( talk) 19:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2924306/
http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/study-whites-more-likely-to-abuse-drugs-than-blacks/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.27.13.2 ( talk) 19:30, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Bearian ( talk) 14:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm new, not an expert on the topic, and don't know how to handle this. The following are studies and reviews that directly contradict, and in fact reverse, the statement in this article that crime and immigration are correlated. However, the referenced book does indeed present the view mentioned--is this article about that book, or the topic? Failing to include extensive and credentialed research misrepresents this topic, which is of significant public concern and policy.
Could someone take a look and make appropriate edits?
https://www.policefoundation.org/publication/the-role-of-local-police-appendix-d/
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418825.2012.659200?journalCode=rjqy20
https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/does_immigration_increase_crime
http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_208KBCC.pdf
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1785005
50.253.121.234 ( talk) 07:08, 26 January 2017 (UTC)Jacob 1/25/16
The section on socioeconomic factors says that criminality correlates with poverty, but cites evidence that it correlates with inequality. Those aren't the same thing. In fact the larger correlation is with inequality, not with socioeconomic status. I'm not aware that it's even been shown that it's the poorer people in an unequal situation who commit the crimes--I've only seen studies that report correlation between inequality and crime rates in geographic or administrative areas. Philgoetz ( talk) 01:01, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Per Google Ngrams (no results for current title), and Google search (~2 million more results). ( closed by non-admin page mover) 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 18:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Statistical correlations of criminal behaviour → Correlates of crime – "Statistical correlations of criminal behavior" is not the common name of this article's subject. The literature on this topic mostly uses the phrase " correlates of crime" instead of "statistical correlations of criminal behavior." Jarble ( talk) 14:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Correlates of crime article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 2 July 2014 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph of Correlates of crime be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
On 10 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Statistical correlations of criminal behaviour to Correlates of crime. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Does the corresponding Metapedia page reliable? Does it contain the missing information from the Wikipedia page? https://en. metapedia .org/wiki/Race_and_crime — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.114.48.186 ( talk) 19:05, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details were available on the "Education Program:University of Ontario Institute of Technology/Critical Race Theory (Winter 2015)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
This article does not provide much detail in regards to the statistical correlation of criminal behaviour. I will be adding adding more information to the Race, ethnicity, and immigration stub by specifically looking at the correlation between race and criminal behaviour in Canada.
Does no one else notice or is concerned with the fact that the vast majority of subheadings and correlative claims in this article originate from a single source? Many of the statements made are also contradictory with other statistical analysis (such as higher crime rates in more religious states or lower proportions of atheists in jail compared to the public). Unless someone provides a validation for the apparent issues, I will return to mark the article as lacking research and biased, as there is no alternative views, explanations, or research.
166.147.104.23 (
talk)
09:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
This article either needs more sources or it needs to be scrapped. It's basically a summary of a book at this point. 114.77.28.246 ( talk) 11:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, this article also seems very US-centered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.7.24 ( talk) 01:36, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Article seems to be a compilation of different reasonings about how one may act in relation to crime and punishment. I do think the psychological aspect is correct, however, this piece may be questionable, as I think it is WP:SYNTH of material that is available on Wikipedia. Also, no cites to any outside published works that may give this article reason to live, thus WP:OR. Would the author reconsider these points before I contest the removed PROD? Phearson ( talk) 05:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Missing a major cause I am surprised that this article fails to mention environmental lead as a cause of crime, particularly violent crime. This summary from 2005 gives the basic findings, and the study has (so far as I know) held up over time---and makes sense. I think some text and a link should be included. Montereyham ( talk) 20:54, 9 December 2011 (UTC). Done, 1 March 2014 (anon).
I can't say I entirely agree with the premise of this article. Certain occurrences lead to certain other occurrences - that, I suspect, we can take for granted. My question, though, is whether this topic should deal with the cause-effect path from a causative premise, as this article does, or from the point of view of the effects. In other words, should this article be Causes and correlates of crime or Effects of ... with the latter being any of the events, circumstances, etc that can lead to crime.
I also have to question the statistics mentioned in this article. Not having access to the source, the casual reader will have no idea when or where the data was obtained. Aside from a single mention of America, there is no indication of from which cultural perspective this article has been written.
Regarding cultural perspectives, it is verifiable that different cultures and different countries have different views of what constitutes crime. It needs to be made clear here what is considered crime. Are we talking violent crime, assault with a deadly weapon, car theft and the like? At the moment, the article seems to focus on the criminal activity of, for want of a better term, "social dropouts". What about fraud, corruption and similar "white-collar" crimes?
There is contention, too, in the psychological traits of criminal activity. I've seen several that could suggest I should have been a criminal. That being the case, those points really need to be expanded and clarified. Perhaps those sections should be merged into Crime, if they're not already there.
Basically, the structure of the article seems logical but without elaborating on each cause/correlate as is done in the various other articles, the overall effect is to make the topic seem simplistic.
LordVetinari ( talk) 13:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
I have added something about the main source. There is a vast literature on the subject. It is very strange that Wikipedia did not have an article on what causes crime. Obviously this is of major interest for society and the areas has been much studied. Miradre ( talk) 14:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
This article is still very poor, it would be better just to remove it. Most of the claims are from the same source, and many of them are highly questionable. Such as this one: "High religious involvement, high importance of religion in one's life, membership in an organized religion, and orthodox religious beliefs are associated with less criminality. Areas with higher religious membership have lower crime rates.". Makes me wonder how it can be that some of the least religious countries in the world, such as Denmark and Norway, tend to be among the better countries in many (most?) crime statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.90.195.55 ( talk • contribs)
Why is this pseudoscientific theory included in the article?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.3.79 ( talk) 23:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Hello?-- 67.85.3.79 ( talk) 03:05, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Maunus, who I have frequently had disputes with in the past, has suddenly moved this article, which I have created and contributed much of the material to, without prior discussions on the talk page. It was moved to "Correlates of crime" from the earlier title "Causes and correlates of crime". It is false to claim that it only discusses correlations. For example, there is a section about theories that claim causality. I will move the material back to prior title unless some good justifications are given. Academica Orientalis ( talk) 20:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
To add a quick reply to my more detailed comment in the section below, statistically speaking the current title ("correlates") is actually less misleading than the previous title ("causes and correlates"), because causality is usually seen as a special case of correlation. With regards to how well the title reflects the intended content of the article, both titles are acceptable really. The issue is just that the old title could mislead the untrained reader to think that correlation and causation are totally separate concepts. (Also, Whether Maunusl should have discussed the matter before the move is an entirely separate issue.) Well-rested Talk 14:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Should this article be called "Causes and Correlates of Crime" (and therefore treat statistical correlations and theories of causality together) or just be called "Correlates of Crime" (which better describes the current content of the article that does not provide any information at all about criminological theories of crime causation). Or should it have a different title all together? ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 21:18, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
The article as it currently stands should be moved back to Causes and correlates of crime, since it covers both of these closely related topics. It seems doubtful that it would be possible to conclusively differentiate causes from correlates. If it is possible to clearly differentiate them, then we could consider splitting the article into separate articles, one on causes and another on correlates; however it is not clear that such a division would be helpful (there might be other ways of dividing the article if it gets too long). Those advocating such a split should give some outline of which material would go into which article. Contrary to what ʍaunus says, the current article does contain information on causes of crime (whether those causes are "criminological" or not, I don't know).
I added a heading for the portion of the discussion that was "closed" just to make it clearer that discussion is continuing, and where to contribute. On that head, requested moves seems like the more obvious place to publicize this discussion. Unless it violates some rule, perhaps you should go ahead and list it here as well. Zodon ( talk) 05:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Greetings! I'm new to this discussion but let's hope I'm able to contribute. If this fact adds anything at all, I'm a statistician, or at least I use statistics quite extensively in my work/research. My opinion in summary, is that the article's title can be kept (as "Correlates of crime"), because in the context of academic research causal relationships are subsets of just correlation relationships (i.e. all causal relationships are also "correlation relationships", for lack of a better phrase). I'll list my detailed reasoning in point form ('cos I love bullet points):
Additional recommendations:
Just my two cents! - Well-rested Talk 12:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Hey guys, instead of looking at how various wordings of the title may mislead uninformed readers (which is probably a dead end in the debate since i think uninformed readers may find either title misleading, like I mentioned above), how about we look at the terminology used in crime research? I'm not an expert in criminology so it would be great if someone more knowledgeable could contribute, but just throwing out some references:
These would suggest to me that it really doesn't matter that much how the article is titled, as long as it's clear that the article is dealing with both correlation and causation (since a lot of research naturally proves both at the same time). I've also found that both the phrases "causes of crime" and "causes and correlates of crime" a both used extensively, so it's a bit hard to say which term is more popular. Well-rested Talk 03:58, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I had to remove the {hat} section as it was erasing any discussion below
High religious involvement, high importance of religion in one's life, membership in an organized religion, and orthodox religious beliefs are associated with less criminality. Areas with higher religious membership have lower crime rates.
I have seen quite a few studies showing an inverse correlation between secularism and crime. (Somehow typed this backwards) In general I'm finding this article quite concerning as it states correlation very strongly when it has just a single citation given almost across the entire article.
The false equivalency is the difference between crime rates based on incarceration and crime rates based on actual crime rates by socioeconomic class. For example many government studies have been done that show that as socioeconomic class goes up illegal drug use goes up among young adults. The problem is that these groups are not targeted and are never charged with a crime therefore the correlations are being misrepresented based on the assumption that incarceration rates by class and race are the same thing as actual crime rates by race and class etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.27.13.2 ( talk) 19:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2924306/
http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/study-whites-more-likely-to-abuse-drugs-than-blacks/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.27.13.2 ( talk) 19:30, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Bearian ( talk) 14:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm new, not an expert on the topic, and don't know how to handle this. The following are studies and reviews that directly contradict, and in fact reverse, the statement in this article that crime and immigration are correlated. However, the referenced book does indeed present the view mentioned--is this article about that book, or the topic? Failing to include extensive and credentialed research misrepresents this topic, which is of significant public concern and policy.
Could someone take a look and make appropriate edits?
https://www.policefoundation.org/publication/the-role-of-local-police-appendix-d/
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418825.2012.659200?journalCode=rjqy20
https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/does_immigration_increase_crime
http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_208KBCC.pdf
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1785005
50.253.121.234 ( talk) 07:08, 26 January 2017 (UTC)Jacob 1/25/16
The section on socioeconomic factors says that criminality correlates with poverty, but cites evidence that it correlates with inequality. Those aren't the same thing. In fact the larger correlation is with inequality, not with socioeconomic status. I'm not aware that it's even been shown that it's the poorer people in an unequal situation who commit the crimes--I've only seen studies that report correlation between inequality and crime rates in geographic or administrative areas. Philgoetz ( talk) 01:01, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Per Google Ngrams (no results for current title), and Google search (~2 million more results). ( closed by non-admin page mover) 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 18:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Statistical correlations of criminal behaviour → Correlates of crime – "Statistical correlations of criminal behavior" is not the common name of this article's subject. The literature on this topic mostly uses the phrase " correlates of crime" instead of "statistical correlations of criminal behavior." Jarble ( talk) 14:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)