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Wrong date. Main problems of Russia at these times were Southern fronts of Civil War: Kolchak, etc. Also, I've never seen this "code name". Mikkalai
At these times, Western front was called "Western Screen" (Западная завеса), against germans. I.e., its activity was mostly passive. What is more, some regiments were moved from West to South and East. Mikkalai 08:37, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In particular, Czech Legion was pain in the ass. Mikkalai 08:37, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Vladimir Lenin" as "commander" in the table is dubious. Military was Leon Trotsky Mikkalai 08:42, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Best choice is probably Jukums Vācietis who was commander-in-chief soviet military during that time.-- Staberinde 11:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I am not a historian, but the above and other details make me to believe that the article is based on sources of dubious credibility. I am falling asleep right now, so I will not add any more. Mikkalai 08:45, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
" Operation Visla" is a missing article about the deportation of thousands of Ukrainians from Poland in 1947. Mikkalai 16:31, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Indeed the article on Action Vistula (Akcja Wisła) is missing, I'll try to fix that in my free time. Note that the difference in naming was actually on purpose. Since the commies officially stated that the infamous action against the civilians and UPA soldiers in the Beskides was not a military operation but a police action. Hence the name Akcja (reserved for administrative actions) was used and not the word Operacja that belongs to military vocabulary. But this obviously OT here. Halibu tt 16:43, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
civil war was nearing an end. False. Nowhere near. E.g., by the end of November British (in
Novorossiysk) and French (in
Odessa,
Sevastopol) intervention started. Siberia was in flames, &c., &c.
Mikkalai 04:23, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think that this phrase is wrong 'Upon the news about the German Revolution, on 13 November 1918' - not the date, but the first part. From German Revolution: The German Revolution describes a series of events that occurred in 1918-1919... no single political party led the rebellion.... The GR was made of several separate events and not all sides were pro-Bolshevik, but the current sentence makes it look like it was a single pro-Bolshevik event. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I tried hard. I'm afraid the name is the result of some confusion, coming from the title of the book by tukhachevski "Поход за Вислу" about his adventure.
There are no traces of the term "Target Vistula" used by Russians. The article must be renamed until any confirmation will be found. I suggest into something like Initial Red Army offensives westwards. Like I already said, it was just move on German backs West, North-West & South-West. Any other name suggestions? Mikkalai 07:46, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
-- Halibu tt 09:54, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
http://militera.lib.ru/science/tuhachevsky/index.html Beware, the connection is unstable.
Also, I've looked thru all "Директивы командования фронтов Кр. Армии (1917-22)", and there is no slightest hint about plans westwards beyond liberation of belarus and ukraine before 1919. Mikkalai 10:18, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Except the name, are there any other factual errors you see in the article, based on the sources you have? And while I have *no* sources about the name - and thus I abstan from the discussion - I'd just like to point out that lack of sources one can find does not equal sources that disprove given facts. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:00, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I spent quite a bit of time researching, and I see that in 1918 Bolsheviks had over the head of their own troubles to think about helping World Revolution. Its own Red Army was barely created and very unstable. Bolshevik Russia was but a tiny patch within the former Russian Empire. Foreign intervention from North ( Murmansk), South ( Odessa, Sevastopol) and East ( Japanese), Czech Legion right in the middle,...etc. Economic disaster, lack of food. 1919 was narrow recovery, not without the help of White Movement (not kidding). Everyone likes to shout about how these Bolsheviks were robbing poor peasants, while forgetting that White armies robbed for good as well: they have to feed themselves, big surprise. Oh, yeah, they paid. With paper money. That was a serious reason of the defeat of whites: lack of local support. Mikkalai 19:23, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Piotrus added recently the following: It was only a matter of luck that Soviet begun organised advance to secure the chaotic territories left in the wake of the German retreat before the Polish forces were able to organise and start a move of their own.. Seems fine with me, but there's an interesting question here. Several of the areas were handed over to the Polish Army by the local commanders of the German Ober-Ost Armee, most notably the city of Grodno and several other areas to the south of it. From other areas the Germans simply withdrew and left them to their fate. Did the Germans sign any aggreements with the Reds as well? Were there any territories handed over to the Bolsheviks, or were they simply capturing the abandoned lands? Halibu tt 15:51, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
I renamed it to " Russian westward offensive of 1918-1919", since I finally laid my hand at the book of Norman Davies and checked the references. His references are correctly described in the text in terms of dates and events, with one exception: not even a hint what could have ben (mis)interpreted as "Target Wistula". In general, I find the book well balanced, bearing in mind it was written duriong the Cold War. However it has some minor errors in some details, understandable for a non-Russian person. (E.g., in one place he ascrbies Pskov to Baltic states; I know why.)
I thoroughly checked two main sources discussed here:
I understand that my article title is not the best possible, but at least it is correct. If you have any other suggestions, please let us discuss them here first. Mikkalai 02:48, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Article seems to be dealing mainly only with fighting south from Lithuania but red army also attacked countries like Estonia and Latvia at that time ( Estonian Liberation War). Estonia started counter-offensive aganist red army already in january 1919 before first clashes between soviets and poles even started.-- Staberinde 11:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, we have already wasted huge amount of time on this. I personally checked Red Army documents and Lenin words for this period. There was no "Operacia Visla" or something similar in Soviet documents. Polish Encyclopedia you quote gives invalid date. Polish guy gives no references at all where he gor this word. He just as well may have heard about Operation Vistula, only had no idea which one. You cannot write encyclopedia on such shaky grounds. `' Míkka 20:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I am somewhat unsure that the outcome may be descrived as "defeat", which word is associated with total failure which was certainly not: Bolsheviks did expand for significant amount beyont they were squeezed. In any case, any judgement of the outcome must be based on solid refences. Marting, please provide them. - 7-bubёn >t 16:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
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Wrong date. Main problems of Russia at these times were Southern fronts of Civil War: Kolchak, etc. Also, I've never seen this "code name". Mikkalai
At these times, Western front was called "Western Screen" (Западная завеса), against germans. I.e., its activity was mostly passive. What is more, some regiments were moved from West to South and East. Mikkalai 08:37, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In particular, Czech Legion was pain in the ass. Mikkalai 08:37, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Vladimir Lenin" as "commander" in the table is dubious. Military was Leon Trotsky Mikkalai 08:42, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Best choice is probably Jukums Vācietis who was commander-in-chief soviet military during that time.-- Staberinde 11:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I am not a historian, but the above and other details make me to believe that the article is based on sources of dubious credibility. I am falling asleep right now, so I will not add any more. Mikkalai 08:45, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
" Operation Visla" is a missing article about the deportation of thousands of Ukrainians from Poland in 1947. Mikkalai 16:31, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Indeed the article on Action Vistula (Akcja Wisła) is missing, I'll try to fix that in my free time. Note that the difference in naming was actually on purpose. Since the commies officially stated that the infamous action against the civilians and UPA soldiers in the Beskides was not a military operation but a police action. Hence the name Akcja (reserved for administrative actions) was used and not the word Operacja that belongs to military vocabulary. But this obviously OT here. Halibu tt 16:43, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
civil war was nearing an end. False. Nowhere near. E.g., by the end of November British (in
Novorossiysk) and French (in
Odessa,
Sevastopol) intervention started. Siberia was in flames, &c., &c.
Mikkalai 04:23, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think that this phrase is wrong 'Upon the news about the German Revolution, on 13 November 1918' - not the date, but the first part. From German Revolution: The German Revolution describes a series of events that occurred in 1918-1919... no single political party led the rebellion.... The GR was made of several separate events and not all sides were pro-Bolshevik, but the current sentence makes it look like it was a single pro-Bolshevik event. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I tried hard. I'm afraid the name is the result of some confusion, coming from the title of the book by tukhachevski "Поход за Вислу" about his adventure.
There are no traces of the term "Target Vistula" used by Russians. The article must be renamed until any confirmation will be found. I suggest into something like Initial Red Army offensives westwards. Like I already said, it was just move on German backs West, North-West & South-West. Any other name suggestions? Mikkalai 07:46, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
-- Halibu tt 09:54, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
http://militera.lib.ru/science/tuhachevsky/index.html Beware, the connection is unstable.
Also, I've looked thru all "Директивы командования фронтов Кр. Армии (1917-22)", and there is no slightest hint about plans westwards beyond liberation of belarus and ukraine before 1919. Mikkalai 10:18, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Except the name, are there any other factual errors you see in the article, based on the sources you have? And while I have *no* sources about the name - and thus I abstan from the discussion - I'd just like to point out that lack of sources one can find does not equal sources that disprove given facts. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:00, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I spent quite a bit of time researching, and I see that in 1918 Bolsheviks had over the head of their own troubles to think about helping World Revolution. Its own Red Army was barely created and very unstable. Bolshevik Russia was but a tiny patch within the former Russian Empire. Foreign intervention from North ( Murmansk), South ( Odessa, Sevastopol) and East ( Japanese), Czech Legion right in the middle,...etc. Economic disaster, lack of food. 1919 was narrow recovery, not without the help of White Movement (not kidding). Everyone likes to shout about how these Bolsheviks were robbing poor peasants, while forgetting that White armies robbed for good as well: they have to feed themselves, big surprise. Oh, yeah, they paid. With paper money. That was a serious reason of the defeat of whites: lack of local support. Mikkalai 19:23, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Piotrus added recently the following: It was only a matter of luck that Soviet begun organised advance to secure the chaotic territories left in the wake of the German retreat before the Polish forces were able to organise and start a move of their own.. Seems fine with me, but there's an interesting question here. Several of the areas were handed over to the Polish Army by the local commanders of the German Ober-Ost Armee, most notably the city of Grodno and several other areas to the south of it. From other areas the Germans simply withdrew and left them to their fate. Did the Germans sign any aggreements with the Reds as well? Were there any territories handed over to the Bolsheviks, or were they simply capturing the abandoned lands? Halibu tt 15:51, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
I renamed it to " Russian westward offensive of 1918-1919", since I finally laid my hand at the book of Norman Davies and checked the references. His references are correctly described in the text in terms of dates and events, with one exception: not even a hint what could have ben (mis)interpreted as "Target Wistula". In general, I find the book well balanced, bearing in mind it was written duriong the Cold War. However it has some minor errors in some details, understandable for a non-Russian person. (E.g., in one place he ascrbies Pskov to Baltic states; I know why.)
I thoroughly checked two main sources discussed here:
I understand that my article title is not the best possible, but at least it is correct. If you have any other suggestions, please let us discuss them here first. Mikkalai 02:48, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Article seems to be dealing mainly only with fighting south from Lithuania but red army also attacked countries like Estonia and Latvia at that time ( Estonian Liberation War). Estonia started counter-offensive aganist red army already in january 1919 before first clashes between soviets and poles even started.-- Staberinde 11:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, we have already wasted huge amount of time on this. I personally checked Red Army documents and Lenin words for this period. There was no "Operacia Visla" or something similar in Soviet documents. Polish Encyclopedia you quote gives invalid date. Polish guy gives no references at all where he gor this word. He just as well may have heard about Operation Vistula, only had no idea which one. You cannot write encyclopedia on such shaky grounds. `' Míkka 20:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I am somewhat unsure that the outcome may be descrived as "defeat", which word is associated with total failure which was certainly not: Bolsheviks did expand for significant amount beyont they were squeezed. In any case, any judgement of the outcome must be based on solid refences. Marting, please provide them. - 7-bubёn >t 16:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
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Resolved This issue has been resolved, and I have therefore removed the tag, if not already done. No further action is necessary.— cyberbot II NotifyOnline 22:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Soviet westward offensive of 1918–19. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Vilna, Lida, Baranowicze and Luninets is a mixture. Xx236 ( talk) 10:36, 26 May 2017 (UTC)