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Zwarte piet never really existed (Sint Nicolaas did). Other then mentioned, Zwarte Piet was introduced around 1850, so not during the middle ages! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.250.190.29 ( talk) 16:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Zwarte Piet is a 19th century cleansing of earlier companion figures (possibly dating back to the Ravens of Odin, some scholars link that to the black color), as the article clearly states. So strangely enough, Zwarte Piet is the product of political correctness. (just a 19th century kind that tried to eliminate non-christian aspects).
I always thought the slave aspect far fetched because traditionally he is in charge of the punishing of bad children, and actually carries Fasces (de roe(de)) for that. You don't hand slaves symbols of authority and given them jobs with authority. Moreover, even mid 19th century, slavery was on the way out. 88.159.78.61 ( talk) 17:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
remark- I am not really familiar with the reviewing aspect of wikipedia, so I'm not sure if this is the right place and if it is my place to do so; I would like however to plead for removing the line "but the tradition appears to date back at least as far as the early 19th Century." The 1850 Jan Schenkman book is verifiable, the line diluting the sentiment that Schenkman as the one who invented Zwarte Piet is not however. Seeing as Wikipedia is the source many people turn to for information, and seeing as Wikipedia as a project ants to be a trusted source, I don't understand why this would be appropriate. The verb "appears" is a good indication that this is just an accepted rumour, not fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1811:C192:4300:8CD:1E46:A38F:7354 ( talk) 19:11, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Celebration of Sinterklaas is the celebration of his name day, which was the day of Nicolas' death!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.161.252.154 ( talk) 08:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
In one paragraph it begins by stating, "Contrary to popular belief, Sinterklaas is not the basis for the North American figure of Santa Claus." Then the paragraph goes on to describe exactly how and when Sinterklaas became Santa Claus in American. I'm taking out the first sentence since it's not cited or explained at all, and is also ridiculous. Santa is clearly this same guy. Noit ( talk) 16:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm Dutch, so I know. Sinterklaas is not santa clause. Santa claus is called de kerstman in the netherlands — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 ( talk) 10:41, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm Dutch too. Sante Clause (christmas father) is something that is getting poulair in the Netherlands too, but only because it is populair in foreign countries. It seems that Sinterklaas was brought by colonists to the US, and finaly became Santa Clause (christmas). Santa Claus was then imported to the Netherlands again. In The Netherlands we celebrate both, although Sinterklaas is far more poulair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.250.190.29 ( talk) 16:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
"The children, up to an age of usually seven or eight years, almost religiously believe in Sinterklaas. They think that he actually lives forever and that he comes from Spain, that he knows everything about the children and that his Zwarte Pieten do come down through chimneys. The period between his arrival and December 5 is therefore very exciting."
This seems not non neutral pov to me and assumptious. I did not believe in Santa Claus when I was young and I doubt all children believe in Sinterklaas. Genjix 11:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
there has to be at least a link to David Sedaris´story - "Six to Eight Black Men", which comically looks at these traditions from an American perspective. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John.i.buckeye ( talk • contribs) 14:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC).
Why is there no mention of the Original St Nicolas. His Birthdate and the day he passed away. And that he was the Bishop of Myra (Turkey), but we (the Dutch and Belgians) heard of him through the Spanish who occupied us and so we naturally assumed he must have been from Spain. And that he was very a giving man (especially to the poor), that's why he gives presents on his birthday instead of recieving them. And we always eat pepernoten when we cellebrate Sinterklaas, which look like horse droppings, coz besides gifts that's what people found when Sinterklaas had paid a visit.
St. Nicholas: http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38
Pepernoten: http://www.directrecipes.com/archives/dec/02_Dec_97_Pepernoten.html
http://images.google.nl/images?&num=10&hl=nl&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-19,GGLD:en&btnG=Google+zoeken&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_qdr=all&as_dt=i&as_rights=&safe=images&sa=N&tab=wi&q=pepernoten —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Whatsit ( talk • contribs) 21:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC).
This article has a template saying it contains unverified claims / lacks resources.
I have tried to review this article, and as an inhabitant of the netherlands i'll try to spot anything which seems doubtful or wrong.
About the name of the donkey/horse of Sinterklaas, I've seen the series and yes in Belgium it's quite commonly known a Slechtweervandaag. Tough I think the name is slowly decreasing in usage. As no new shows in Belgium were made ever since (with a decent influence, I can't recall any) and a lot of kids watched Dutch shows. So names like Amerigo are also used over here. There's no real name tough, just names from tv shows wich are used and later slowly fade away. Also I always tough it was horse, a type called a schimmel. It's a grey horse with white spots. I know Slechtweervandaag and Amerigo were.
Slechtweervandaag was the name of his horse in a Belgian TV show back in 92/93. It remained that way in the minds of people since... (Anonymous - 04:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC))
unless alzheimer is hitting rather badly today, I seem to remember 'slechtweervandaag' being used as the horses name during the yearly official arrival of Sinterklaas in Antwerp 193.190.154.1 ( talk) 14:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
About the fact that he comes form Spain is because, I believe (will check it later), that however he lived in Turkey, he was later buried in Rome Italy. Than because of the Spanish influence people started to be mistaken about this. And Spain became quickly Sint Niklaas' home.
See the article Saint Nicholas. Saint Nicholas is a famous saint in the Greek-Orthodox and Catholic tradtion. The relics of the Saint were taken from Myra to Bari in southern Italy in 1087, where they have remained since. In the Dutch tradition, Saint Nicholas is said to come from Spain, and from its capital Madrid. The reason for the association with "Spain" is obvious. Bari was under Spanish rule from the 16th until the 18th century as part of the Kingdom of Naples. The tradition that Saint Nicholas lived in Spain explains how the association of Black Peter with "Moors" got started in the Netherlands. Some of the muslim Moors who lived in Spain until the 17th century were black. (Remember Shakespeare's black Othello, also a "Moor".)
Part of the standard fare Sinterklaas brought me - apart from toys, marzipan and chocolate - was mandarin oranges. December happens to be the season for mandarin oranges; and the most likely source for mandarin oranges is Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 ( talk) 12:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
In many other countries, Saint Nicholas has helpers who look like devil-like, covered in soot, and who carry rods to beat children and sacks to abduct them in if they misbehave. This is a way of disciplining the children. If the saint's servant or slave looked sooty according to the earlier tradition, it must have been a relatively small step to turn him into a "moorish" / negro servant or slave. The Dutch involvement in the slave trade and racist "darky" stereoptypes also clearly played a role in the development of "Zwarte Piet". Traditionally, Zwarte Piet was not only threatening but also childlike, generous (he also gives presents), playful and acrobatic (perfoming stunts on the roof while delivering presnents). He thus matched a racist "negro" stereotype. See also the article blackface on darky iconography. "Zwarte Piet" is also mentioned there.
When I was a child, the Black Peters were also taught to me as Moors from Spain. It can also be found in many childrens books about Sinterklaas. Probably because it were the only black people (the then Habsburgian/Spanish) Netherlands knew before the Age of Discovery, (and maybe on inland Dutch soil quite a while longer).
Note that Black Peter was toned down because of two different political correctnesses. Not only discrimination, but already earlier because it wasn't deemed enlightened anymore to scare the children so much. (Mothers used to scare children for weeks that they would be taken to Spain by Santa and/or get no presents)
88.159.74.100 ( talk) 08:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
1941 movie showing multiple zwarte pieten prior to the arrival of canadians which the article claims have introduced this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafx3d60_yo —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.212.166.78 (
talk)
17:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Missing: his arrival is broadcasted on telly.
TeunSpaans 17:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Not sure about 'packages' as translation of 'pakjes'. Don't you think 'presents' would be more suitable?
Rosalien 14:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm Dutch, and packages are not pakjes. Presents — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 ( talk) 10:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
In the text it says that the Christmas gift-giving is a bigger occasion than Sinterklaas gift-giving, but it's not. On the contrary, The santa claus is given hardly any attention. I live in Belgium and Christmas always was bigger when I was younger. But I never believed in Santa Claus but I did believe in Sinterklaas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.241.214.123 ( talk) 19:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone added a template suggesting moving this article to the Santa Claus article. But there is no discussion here, so I removed the template. In stead I suggest moving Santa Claus to a subsection of this article. After all, Sinterklaas is the original. Of course I'm joking, but the suggestion was ridiculous, so I feel I should ridicule it back. :) DirkvdM 18:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
It's been in the news during the past few years: some people think the concept of Sinterklaas and his zwarte pieten reminds us too much of a history of slavery and the Dutch colonial past. A rich white man with a band of black followers. The commotion was minor though, and I'm not sure if there'd be reliable sources on this anywhere. -- MooNFisH 21:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I disagree; the commotion has not been minor at all, and the debate flares up every year. I added a (hopefully neutral enough) addition to this effect, also adding something about how the festival is celebrated in the former colonies, where I grew up as a child.
Recently the commotion has shifted focus to the Christian imagery and the Muslim perception of same. I just like any excuse for a party, and I am undecided (nor do I particularly care) about the origins of the Petes, but I do feel it deserves a mention.
For backup, a simple search of recent news should do the trick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KzoneDD ( talk • contribs) 02:37, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Is use usefull to put the arrivals from Sinterklaas in the Netherlands in this article?
year | place |
---|---|
1952 t/m 1959 | Amsterdam |
1960 | Rotterdam |
1961 t/m 1963 | Amsterdam |
1964 | Hoorn |
1965 | Leeuwarden * |
1966 | Harlingen * |
1967 | Medemblik * |
1968 | Veere * |
1969 | Enkhuizen * |
1970 | Volendam * |
1971 | Monnickendam * |
1972 | Willemstad * |
1973 | Hoorn * |
1974 | Enkhuizen * |
1975 | Vlissingen * |
1976 | Scheveningen * |
year | place |
---|---|
1977 | Muiden * |
1978 | Medemblik * |
1979 | Rotterdam * |
1980 | Veere * |
1981 | Hindeloopen * |
1982 | Marken * |
1983 | Hoorn * |
1984 | Terschelling * |
1985 | Heusden * |
1986 | Zutphen ** |
1987 | Schoonhoven ** |
1988 | Zierikzee ** |
1989 | Gorinchem ** |
1990 | Elburg ** |
1991 | Hindeloopen ** |
1992 | Dordrecht ** |
year | place |
---|---|
1993 | Ravenstein ** |
1994 | Monnickendam ** |
1995 | Doesburg ** |
1996 | Harlingen ** |
1997 | Enkhuizen ** |
1998 | Wijk bij Duurstede ** |
1999 | Hattem ** |
2000 | Woudrichem ** |
2001 | Maastricht ** |
2002 | Zaltbommel ** |
2003 | Zwolle ** |
2004 | Alkmaar ** |
2005 | Sneek ** |
2006 | Middelburg ** |
2007 | Kampen ** |
no stars = Jan Gajentaan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mweites ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
one star = Adrie van Oorschot
two stars = Bram van der Vlugt
"It is also celebrated to a lesser extent in parts of France (North, Alsace, Lorraine), as well as in Luxembourg, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, the Czech Republic and the town of Trieste in Italy. "
I added now the information about Italy but, more generally, I am not sure what "lesser extent" means in the interpretation of authors and, more importantly, of readers. In my hometown, Trieste, San Nicolò is considered quite importantly by citizens and children in particular who receive gifts from him. It was more important than Santa Claus and only in the last decades this changed a bit. Morbin ( talk) 10:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you're right, I don't know the situation in Italy, but for example here in Belgium it still is THE most important day of the year for most children, even more than christmas.-- Lamadude ( talk) 18:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
The picture of Sinterklaas is that of the dutch 'version'. Isn't there any picture of the flemish 'version'? It would be nice to let it see what difference there is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bvman ( talk • contribs) 19:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I do not know if there is any difference at all, other then that the Flemish Sinterklaas speaks with a soft "g" pronounced differently and lands in a Flemish town rather then in the Netherlands. I can hardly imagine much change... Do the Belgians have a Zwarte Piet figure, by the way? J.B. ( talk) 12:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
In Flanders there are Zwarte Pieten as well, I don't know about any differences other than the ones allready mentioned in the article: gifts are delivered during the night from 5 to 6 december and found by the children on the 6th, not given to them by their parents. And Sinterklaas can be a little more severe sometimes, though he is nearly always nice as well. -- Lamadude ( talk) 18:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, in Flanders there is a "Zwarte Piet", too. I was Sinterklaas a couple of years. 1980's. We drove to a few families' homes, and were met by one of the parents. The parents would give you toys to give to the children and a piece of paper with the names of the children and their behavior ("studies well. needs to clean his room more often. Doesn't like to eat xxx". Things like that) . You hid the paper in a big book you were carrying. Once the parent was back inside the house, you knocked on the door, and the children opened the door. Once inside, you opened the big book, and started reading from the cheat sheet. Zwarte Piet menaces to put him in the bag, but you end up taking toys out of the bag, and give it to the child. Then you leave, until next year. It was fun, and the children were impressed by the costume. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 ( talk) 12:16, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Flanders. Early 1970. I was told to put some carrots in a clog next to the chimney, as food for the horse. In the morning the carrots had disappeared, which proved beyond doubt the existence of Sinterklaas. And that his horse had a healthy appetite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 ( talk) 12:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
When reading the wiki I have noticed someone had changed the text in an insulting way. Among others inserted the f-word multiple times. I have removed/changed these texts, but it is possible I missed somes texts or my change was not completely correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EJYW ( talk • contribs) 11:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Sinterklaas is hundreds years old and the section only wrote that Sinterklaas continued during WWII. I think this is not notable and clearly ndue weight. Andries ( talk) 18:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Because this article pertains to Dutch history and culture, the section on Sinterklaas in WWII is appropriate; and besides, it is quite interesting, not to mention notable, and provides a window into a crucial period in Dutch history. :There is no need to censor it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dominee ( talk • contribs) 19:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
In certain regions of Flanders (and perhaps some parts of the Netherlands as well?) the children's friend bringing presents etc... is not Sinterklaas but Sint-Maarten (see: St._Martin's_Day), although this tradition is slowly being replaced by Sinterklaas, that is slowly being replaced by Santa Claus (or Father Xmas)... -- Felix Atagong ( talk) 10:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I remember reading about a connection between Sinterklaas and the Norse god Odin. He used to ride on his eight legged white horse, Sleipnir, accompanied by two ravens, Huginn and Muninn, who listened at chimneys and reported everything happening in the world to Odin. I think there's even a story of him giving gifts to children, but I can't find a reference at the moment. The theory is that Sleipnir turned into Amerigo while the ravens turned into Black Petes, sometime when the legend was christined. The article now has a lonely reference to the ravens. We either need tom flesh this out, or remove the reference altogether. I'll see what I can find. SQB ( talk) 19:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Historically saints like Nicholas have a name day, and the name day of St. Nicholas was indeed december 6. However in the netherlands the veneration of the name day's of saints has died out, and most people don't even know what a name day is. So "Sinteklaas day" is always referred to as his birthday, never as his name day. Mahjongg ( talk) 10:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes I agree, in the Netherlands Sinterklaas is celebrated as his birthday, not his name day. In Belgium, this is probably different. -- nonfictie ( talk) 11:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, Kids in the Netherlands think sinterklaas still excist. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.10.75.131 (
talk)
10:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
What about merging this article with Saint Nicholas? -- Flederlander aka Patio ( talk) 11:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm under the impression the article suggests that St Nick's day is only a tradition in the Dutch-speaking Belgium. Though it's not ; Saint Nicolas is very popular in Wallonia too, and the traditions attached to his day are really similar to the ones in Flanders. -- LelalMekha — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.201.126.113 ( talk) 18:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Dear Walter, still puzzled by your claim Sinterklaas is celebrated by Northern Germans, never saw any proof of that in german TV broadcastings (like the ZDF). Or do you mean the german speaking population of flanders? That would make much more sense, but I cannot read that back in your edit. 17:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Done I removed the mention that Sinterklaas is celebrated in North Germany, but added that its celebrated as "sunderklaas" on the (german) wadden islands, also provided an (English language) reference, and obviously I didn't use Wikipedia as a reference for that.
Mahjongg (
talk)
17:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
In response to the repeated removal of this citation, I'm adding this topic here. First off, the article contains several citations from much more questionable sources. Citation # 7 leads to a blog called Female Gamers. # 9 and # 11 are also blogs. That aside, I Am Expat is not a blog and those who have removed the citation have not offered much in the way of an argument explaining why the source is not valid. The comments made thus far amount to "it's a blog" (it isn't) and "there's no editorial oversight (actually, there is). The publication does contain a blog but, then again, so does The New York Times. Perhaps this is why they're confused? The article in question is not a blog post. Manzanitasyndrome ( talk) 12:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Many other sources on wikipedia make it clear that Sinterklaas was the main source for santa claus, with some influences added from father christmas. So this already an establish fact. Still the lede only says that Sinterklaas was "one of the sources", which doesn't give enough weight to his role in the emergence of the legend of Santa. As for example indicated in the article A Visit from St. Nicholas, which clearly stated the influence of Dutch tradition on this poem that more or less defined his legend. Not to mention the conversion of "Sinterklaas" to "Santa claus" itself which makes this point very evident. I pledge that the lede should mention that Sinterklaas is the main source for Santa Claus, not just "a source". Mahjongg ( talk) 13:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
'Traditionally, some goods (often carrots and straw) are "sacrificed" to Sinterklaas and his horse, much like the sacrifices of the pagan Germanics.' Leaving food out is hardly 'sacrifice', he even had to put it in quotes because it is such a stretch. In addition there is no academic support cited for this food-leaving being rooted in pagan sacrifice, so I will be removing it. The entire first section smacks of neopagan straw-grasping, to be honest. 2602:306:BC83:DC10:B841:65CF:1532:D3A0 ( talk) 23:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
As many other before me have noticed, the name of this article suggests that Saint Nikolaus is celebrated only in the Netherlands, and only with the name of Sinterklass. I'd like the whole article to be renamed as "Saint Nikolaus' fest" or something like that, since all the names provided after are cases of linguistic distortion. [SVecchiato unlogged] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.141.2.174 ( talk) 10:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Edit: I would also link this article to the Russian "Grandfather Frost" s_vecchiato unlogged — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.119.129.136 ( talk) 12:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An anon is suggesting that blackface in the section on Zwarte Piet should read "black facial paint". However, that's the definition of blackface, although the connotation is not the same. The article on Zwarte Piet states it's blackface. Comments? Corrections? Discussion? Walter Görlitz ( talk) 06:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
I know the wording that Sinterklaas is a 'traditional figure' probably stems out of some edit war, but to me this is way too vague. Also, it makes Sinterklaas appear as a fixed, unchangeable figure. For an alternative, the Santa Claus article: 'a mythical figure with legendary, historical and folkloric origins'. 82.217.116.224 ( talk) 20:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
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Goedheiligman is from Goedhylik man, modern Dutch goedhuwlijkman, good marriage man. He paid the dowry for three poor girls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.212.116.112 ( talk) 18:13, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Black pete (zwarte piet) is recently changed too roet piet (soot pete) i realy think this should be included — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.186.135 ( talk) 06:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
Any scholarly work will tell you so, stop removing my edit. Turks arrived in Minor Asia around 11th century with the arrival and conquest by Seljuk Turks. Myra was an Ancient Greek, Roman Greek, Byzantine Greek and even an Ottoman Greek city before Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. During the time of of Saint Nicholas. Myra was under control of the Roman Empire. There were no Turks in the area prior to the 11th century. Ozan33Ankara ( talk) 15:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Zwarte Piet already has his own article. This one is for Sinterklaas. Section 1.2 "Zwarte Piet" is much longer and cites more sources than both section 1.1 "Sinterklaas" (the focal point of this article) and the opener for the actual Zwarte Piet article.
I'm not qualified to expound on Sinterklaas, and I don't wanna go indiscriminately deleting sentences and taking an axe to citations that people spent time carefully constructing. But section 1 reads as disjointed and imbalanced. The heading for Sinterklaas is very sparse prose in the form of a short laundry list of details, devoid of any historical context or even a specified time during which the facts applied. The Zwarte Piet heading that follows is a sprawling history of Zwarte Piet over the years, across multiple eras and locales, and even includes public opinion statistics and political implications.
The rest of the article goes into more depth on Sinterklaas but those sections are much lower on the page. I think it's right for some space to be committed to describing the Zwarte Piet racism controversy, insofar as it affects interpretation and celebration of Sinterklaas. But along with the description of Zwarte Piet himself, it should probably be just a brief summary plus any details that specifically relate to or overlap with Sinterklaas, along with a link to the proper article on Zwarte Piet. If an expert can expand the Sinterklaas section sufficiently that the whole article feels equally dense, then maybe that's better. Aminomancer ( talk) 21:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't want to reopen the debate from above about Blackface, but is there another image we could possibly use on this page? Or is the fact that Zwarte Piet is typically portrayed by someone who is not black intrinsic to the character itself? Delukiel ( talk) 17:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
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Zwarte piet never really existed (Sint Nicolaas did). Other then mentioned, Zwarte Piet was introduced around 1850, so not during the middle ages! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.250.190.29 ( talk) 16:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Zwarte Piet is a 19th century cleansing of earlier companion figures (possibly dating back to the Ravens of Odin, some scholars link that to the black color), as the article clearly states. So strangely enough, Zwarte Piet is the product of political correctness. (just a 19th century kind that tried to eliminate non-christian aspects).
I always thought the slave aspect far fetched because traditionally he is in charge of the punishing of bad children, and actually carries Fasces (de roe(de)) for that. You don't hand slaves symbols of authority and given them jobs with authority. Moreover, even mid 19th century, slavery was on the way out. 88.159.78.61 ( talk) 17:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
remark- I am not really familiar with the reviewing aspect of wikipedia, so I'm not sure if this is the right place and if it is my place to do so; I would like however to plead for removing the line "but the tradition appears to date back at least as far as the early 19th Century." The 1850 Jan Schenkman book is verifiable, the line diluting the sentiment that Schenkman as the one who invented Zwarte Piet is not however. Seeing as Wikipedia is the source many people turn to for information, and seeing as Wikipedia as a project ants to be a trusted source, I don't understand why this would be appropriate. The verb "appears" is a good indication that this is just an accepted rumour, not fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1811:C192:4300:8CD:1E46:A38F:7354 ( talk) 19:11, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Celebration of Sinterklaas is the celebration of his name day, which was the day of Nicolas' death!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.161.252.154 ( talk) 08:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
In one paragraph it begins by stating, "Contrary to popular belief, Sinterklaas is not the basis for the North American figure of Santa Claus." Then the paragraph goes on to describe exactly how and when Sinterklaas became Santa Claus in American. I'm taking out the first sentence since it's not cited or explained at all, and is also ridiculous. Santa is clearly this same guy. Noit ( talk) 16:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm Dutch, so I know. Sinterklaas is not santa clause. Santa claus is called de kerstman in the netherlands — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 ( talk) 10:41, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm Dutch too. Sante Clause (christmas father) is something that is getting poulair in the Netherlands too, but only because it is populair in foreign countries. It seems that Sinterklaas was brought by colonists to the US, and finaly became Santa Clause (christmas). Santa Claus was then imported to the Netherlands again. In The Netherlands we celebrate both, although Sinterklaas is far more poulair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.250.190.29 ( talk) 16:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
"The children, up to an age of usually seven or eight years, almost religiously believe in Sinterklaas. They think that he actually lives forever and that he comes from Spain, that he knows everything about the children and that his Zwarte Pieten do come down through chimneys. The period between his arrival and December 5 is therefore very exciting."
This seems not non neutral pov to me and assumptious. I did not believe in Santa Claus when I was young and I doubt all children believe in Sinterklaas. Genjix 11:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
there has to be at least a link to David Sedaris´story - "Six to Eight Black Men", which comically looks at these traditions from an American perspective. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John.i.buckeye ( talk • contribs) 14:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC).
Why is there no mention of the Original St Nicolas. His Birthdate and the day he passed away. And that he was the Bishop of Myra (Turkey), but we (the Dutch and Belgians) heard of him through the Spanish who occupied us and so we naturally assumed he must have been from Spain. And that he was very a giving man (especially to the poor), that's why he gives presents on his birthday instead of recieving them. And we always eat pepernoten when we cellebrate Sinterklaas, which look like horse droppings, coz besides gifts that's what people found when Sinterklaas had paid a visit.
St. Nicholas: http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38
Pepernoten: http://www.directrecipes.com/archives/dec/02_Dec_97_Pepernoten.html
http://images.google.nl/images?&num=10&hl=nl&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-19,GGLD:en&btnG=Google+zoeken&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_qdr=all&as_dt=i&as_rights=&safe=images&sa=N&tab=wi&q=pepernoten —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Whatsit ( talk • contribs) 21:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC).
This article has a template saying it contains unverified claims / lacks resources.
I have tried to review this article, and as an inhabitant of the netherlands i'll try to spot anything which seems doubtful or wrong.
About the name of the donkey/horse of Sinterklaas, I've seen the series and yes in Belgium it's quite commonly known a Slechtweervandaag. Tough I think the name is slowly decreasing in usage. As no new shows in Belgium were made ever since (with a decent influence, I can't recall any) and a lot of kids watched Dutch shows. So names like Amerigo are also used over here. There's no real name tough, just names from tv shows wich are used and later slowly fade away. Also I always tough it was horse, a type called a schimmel. It's a grey horse with white spots. I know Slechtweervandaag and Amerigo were.
Slechtweervandaag was the name of his horse in a Belgian TV show back in 92/93. It remained that way in the minds of people since... (Anonymous - 04:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC))
unless alzheimer is hitting rather badly today, I seem to remember 'slechtweervandaag' being used as the horses name during the yearly official arrival of Sinterklaas in Antwerp 193.190.154.1 ( talk) 14:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
About the fact that he comes form Spain is because, I believe (will check it later), that however he lived in Turkey, he was later buried in Rome Italy. Than because of the Spanish influence people started to be mistaken about this. And Spain became quickly Sint Niklaas' home.
See the article Saint Nicholas. Saint Nicholas is a famous saint in the Greek-Orthodox and Catholic tradtion. The relics of the Saint were taken from Myra to Bari in southern Italy in 1087, where they have remained since. In the Dutch tradition, Saint Nicholas is said to come from Spain, and from its capital Madrid. The reason for the association with "Spain" is obvious. Bari was under Spanish rule from the 16th until the 18th century as part of the Kingdom of Naples. The tradition that Saint Nicholas lived in Spain explains how the association of Black Peter with "Moors" got started in the Netherlands. Some of the muslim Moors who lived in Spain until the 17th century were black. (Remember Shakespeare's black Othello, also a "Moor".)
Part of the standard fare Sinterklaas brought me - apart from toys, marzipan and chocolate - was mandarin oranges. December happens to be the season for mandarin oranges; and the most likely source for mandarin oranges is Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 ( talk) 12:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
In many other countries, Saint Nicholas has helpers who look like devil-like, covered in soot, and who carry rods to beat children and sacks to abduct them in if they misbehave. This is a way of disciplining the children. If the saint's servant or slave looked sooty according to the earlier tradition, it must have been a relatively small step to turn him into a "moorish" / negro servant or slave. The Dutch involvement in the slave trade and racist "darky" stereoptypes also clearly played a role in the development of "Zwarte Piet". Traditionally, Zwarte Piet was not only threatening but also childlike, generous (he also gives presents), playful and acrobatic (perfoming stunts on the roof while delivering presnents). He thus matched a racist "negro" stereotype. See also the article blackface on darky iconography. "Zwarte Piet" is also mentioned there.
When I was a child, the Black Peters were also taught to me as Moors from Spain. It can also be found in many childrens books about Sinterklaas. Probably because it were the only black people (the then Habsburgian/Spanish) Netherlands knew before the Age of Discovery, (and maybe on inland Dutch soil quite a while longer).
Note that Black Peter was toned down because of two different political correctnesses. Not only discrimination, but already earlier because it wasn't deemed enlightened anymore to scare the children so much. (Mothers used to scare children for weeks that they would be taken to Spain by Santa and/or get no presents)
88.159.74.100 ( talk) 08:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
1941 movie showing multiple zwarte pieten prior to the arrival of canadians which the article claims have introduced this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafx3d60_yo —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.212.166.78 (
talk)
17:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Missing: his arrival is broadcasted on telly.
TeunSpaans 17:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Not sure about 'packages' as translation of 'pakjes'. Don't you think 'presents' would be more suitable?
Rosalien 14:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm Dutch, and packages are not pakjes. Presents — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 ( talk) 10:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
In the text it says that the Christmas gift-giving is a bigger occasion than Sinterklaas gift-giving, but it's not. On the contrary, The santa claus is given hardly any attention. I live in Belgium and Christmas always was bigger when I was younger. But I never believed in Santa Claus but I did believe in Sinterklaas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.241.214.123 ( talk) 19:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone added a template suggesting moving this article to the Santa Claus article. But there is no discussion here, so I removed the template. In stead I suggest moving Santa Claus to a subsection of this article. After all, Sinterklaas is the original. Of course I'm joking, but the suggestion was ridiculous, so I feel I should ridicule it back. :) DirkvdM 18:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
It's been in the news during the past few years: some people think the concept of Sinterklaas and his zwarte pieten reminds us too much of a history of slavery and the Dutch colonial past. A rich white man with a band of black followers. The commotion was minor though, and I'm not sure if there'd be reliable sources on this anywhere. -- MooNFisH 21:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I disagree; the commotion has not been minor at all, and the debate flares up every year. I added a (hopefully neutral enough) addition to this effect, also adding something about how the festival is celebrated in the former colonies, where I grew up as a child.
Recently the commotion has shifted focus to the Christian imagery and the Muslim perception of same. I just like any excuse for a party, and I am undecided (nor do I particularly care) about the origins of the Petes, but I do feel it deserves a mention.
For backup, a simple search of recent news should do the trick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KzoneDD ( talk • contribs) 02:37, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Is use usefull to put the arrivals from Sinterklaas in the Netherlands in this article?
year | place |
---|---|
1952 t/m 1959 | Amsterdam |
1960 | Rotterdam |
1961 t/m 1963 | Amsterdam |
1964 | Hoorn |
1965 | Leeuwarden * |
1966 | Harlingen * |
1967 | Medemblik * |
1968 | Veere * |
1969 | Enkhuizen * |
1970 | Volendam * |
1971 | Monnickendam * |
1972 | Willemstad * |
1973 | Hoorn * |
1974 | Enkhuizen * |
1975 | Vlissingen * |
1976 | Scheveningen * |
year | place |
---|---|
1977 | Muiden * |
1978 | Medemblik * |
1979 | Rotterdam * |
1980 | Veere * |
1981 | Hindeloopen * |
1982 | Marken * |
1983 | Hoorn * |
1984 | Terschelling * |
1985 | Heusden * |
1986 | Zutphen ** |
1987 | Schoonhoven ** |
1988 | Zierikzee ** |
1989 | Gorinchem ** |
1990 | Elburg ** |
1991 | Hindeloopen ** |
1992 | Dordrecht ** |
year | place |
---|---|
1993 | Ravenstein ** |
1994 | Monnickendam ** |
1995 | Doesburg ** |
1996 | Harlingen ** |
1997 | Enkhuizen ** |
1998 | Wijk bij Duurstede ** |
1999 | Hattem ** |
2000 | Woudrichem ** |
2001 | Maastricht ** |
2002 | Zaltbommel ** |
2003 | Zwolle ** |
2004 | Alkmaar ** |
2005 | Sneek ** |
2006 | Middelburg ** |
2007 | Kampen ** |
no stars = Jan Gajentaan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mweites ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
one star = Adrie van Oorschot
two stars = Bram van der Vlugt
"It is also celebrated to a lesser extent in parts of France (North, Alsace, Lorraine), as well as in Luxembourg, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, the Czech Republic and the town of Trieste in Italy. "
I added now the information about Italy but, more generally, I am not sure what "lesser extent" means in the interpretation of authors and, more importantly, of readers. In my hometown, Trieste, San Nicolò is considered quite importantly by citizens and children in particular who receive gifts from him. It was more important than Santa Claus and only in the last decades this changed a bit. Morbin ( talk) 10:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you're right, I don't know the situation in Italy, but for example here in Belgium it still is THE most important day of the year for most children, even more than christmas.-- Lamadude ( talk) 18:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
The picture of Sinterklaas is that of the dutch 'version'. Isn't there any picture of the flemish 'version'? It would be nice to let it see what difference there is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bvman ( talk • contribs) 19:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I do not know if there is any difference at all, other then that the Flemish Sinterklaas speaks with a soft "g" pronounced differently and lands in a Flemish town rather then in the Netherlands. I can hardly imagine much change... Do the Belgians have a Zwarte Piet figure, by the way? J.B. ( talk) 12:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
In Flanders there are Zwarte Pieten as well, I don't know about any differences other than the ones allready mentioned in the article: gifts are delivered during the night from 5 to 6 december and found by the children on the 6th, not given to them by their parents. And Sinterklaas can be a little more severe sometimes, though he is nearly always nice as well. -- Lamadude ( talk) 18:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, in Flanders there is a "Zwarte Piet", too. I was Sinterklaas a couple of years. 1980's. We drove to a few families' homes, and were met by one of the parents. The parents would give you toys to give to the children and a piece of paper with the names of the children and their behavior ("studies well. needs to clean his room more often. Doesn't like to eat xxx". Things like that) . You hid the paper in a big book you were carrying. Once the parent was back inside the house, you knocked on the door, and the children opened the door. Once inside, you opened the big book, and started reading from the cheat sheet. Zwarte Piet menaces to put him in the bag, but you end up taking toys out of the bag, and give it to the child. Then you leave, until next year. It was fun, and the children were impressed by the costume. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 ( talk) 12:16, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Flanders. Early 1970. I was told to put some carrots in a clog next to the chimney, as food for the horse. In the morning the carrots had disappeared, which proved beyond doubt the existence of Sinterklaas. And that his horse had a healthy appetite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 ( talk) 12:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
When reading the wiki I have noticed someone had changed the text in an insulting way. Among others inserted the f-word multiple times. I have removed/changed these texts, but it is possible I missed somes texts or my change was not completely correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EJYW ( talk • contribs) 11:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Sinterklaas is hundreds years old and the section only wrote that Sinterklaas continued during WWII. I think this is not notable and clearly ndue weight. Andries ( talk) 18:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Because this article pertains to Dutch history and culture, the section on Sinterklaas in WWII is appropriate; and besides, it is quite interesting, not to mention notable, and provides a window into a crucial period in Dutch history. :There is no need to censor it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dominee ( talk • contribs) 19:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
In certain regions of Flanders (and perhaps some parts of the Netherlands as well?) the children's friend bringing presents etc... is not Sinterklaas but Sint-Maarten (see: St._Martin's_Day), although this tradition is slowly being replaced by Sinterklaas, that is slowly being replaced by Santa Claus (or Father Xmas)... -- Felix Atagong ( talk) 10:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I remember reading about a connection between Sinterklaas and the Norse god Odin. He used to ride on his eight legged white horse, Sleipnir, accompanied by two ravens, Huginn and Muninn, who listened at chimneys and reported everything happening in the world to Odin. I think there's even a story of him giving gifts to children, but I can't find a reference at the moment. The theory is that Sleipnir turned into Amerigo while the ravens turned into Black Petes, sometime when the legend was christined. The article now has a lonely reference to the ravens. We either need tom flesh this out, or remove the reference altogether. I'll see what I can find. SQB ( talk) 19:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Historically saints like Nicholas have a name day, and the name day of St. Nicholas was indeed december 6. However in the netherlands the veneration of the name day's of saints has died out, and most people don't even know what a name day is. So "Sinteklaas day" is always referred to as his birthday, never as his name day. Mahjongg ( talk) 10:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes I agree, in the Netherlands Sinterklaas is celebrated as his birthday, not his name day. In Belgium, this is probably different. -- nonfictie ( talk) 11:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, Kids in the Netherlands think sinterklaas still excist. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.10.75.131 (
talk)
10:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
What about merging this article with Saint Nicholas? -- Flederlander aka Patio ( talk) 11:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm under the impression the article suggests that St Nick's day is only a tradition in the Dutch-speaking Belgium. Though it's not ; Saint Nicolas is very popular in Wallonia too, and the traditions attached to his day are really similar to the ones in Flanders. -- LelalMekha — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.201.126.113 ( talk) 18:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Dear Walter, still puzzled by your claim Sinterklaas is celebrated by Northern Germans, never saw any proof of that in german TV broadcastings (like the ZDF). Or do you mean the german speaking population of flanders? That would make much more sense, but I cannot read that back in your edit. 17:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Done I removed the mention that Sinterklaas is celebrated in North Germany, but added that its celebrated as "sunderklaas" on the (german) wadden islands, also provided an (English language) reference, and obviously I didn't use Wikipedia as a reference for that.
Mahjongg (
talk)
17:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
In response to the repeated removal of this citation, I'm adding this topic here. First off, the article contains several citations from much more questionable sources. Citation # 7 leads to a blog called Female Gamers. # 9 and # 11 are also blogs. That aside, I Am Expat is not a blog and those who have removed the citation have not offered much in the way of an argument explaining why the source is not valid. The comments made thus far amount to "it's a blog" (it isn't) and "there's no editorial oversight (actually, there is). The publication does contain a blog but, then again, so does The New York Times. Perhaps this is why they're confused? The article in question is not a blog post. Manzanitasyndrome ( talk) 12:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Many other sources on wikipedia make it clear that Sinterklaas was the main source for santa claus, with some influences added from father christmas. So this already an establish fact. Still the lede only says that Sinterklaas was "one of the sources", which doesn't give enough weight to his role in the emergence of the legend of Santa. As for example indicated in the article A Visit from St. Nicholas, which clearly stated the influence of Dutch tradition on this poem that more or less defined his legend. Not to mention the conversion of "Sinterklaas" to "Santa claus" itself which makes this point very evident. I pledge that the lede should mention that Sinterklaas is the main source for Santa Claus, not just "a source". Mahjongg ( talk) 13:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
'Traditionally, some goods (often carrots and straw) are "sacrificed" to Sinterklaas and his horse, much like the sacrifices of the pagan Germanics.' Leaving food out is hardly 'sacrifice', he even had to put it in quotes because it is such a stretch. In addition there is no academic support cited for this food-leaving being rooted in pagan sacrifice, so I will be removing it. The entire first section smacks of neopagan straw-grasping, to be honest. 2602:306:BC83:DC10:B841:65CF:1532:D3A0 ( talk) 23:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
As many other before me have noticed, the name of this article suggests that Saint Nikolaus is celebrated only in the Netherlands, and only with the name of Sinterklass. I'd like the whole article to be renamed as "Saint Nikolaus' fest" or something like that, since all the names provided after are cases of linguistic distortion. [SVecchiato unlogged] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.141.2.174 ( talk) 10:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Edit: I would also link this article to the Russian "Grandfather Frost" s_vecchiato unlogged — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.119.129.136 ( talk) 12:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An anon is suggesting that blackface in the section on Zwarte Piet should read "black facial paint". However, that's the definition of blackface, although the connotation is not the same. The article on Zwarte Piet states it's blackface. Comments? Corrections? Discussion? Walter Görlitz ( talk) 06:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
I know the wording that Sinterklaas is a 'traditional figure' probably stems out of some edit war, but to me this is way too vague. Also, it makes Sinterklaas appear as a fixed, unchangeable figure. For an alternative, the Santa Claus article: 'a mythical figure with legendary, historical and folkloric origins'. 82.217.116.224 ( talk) 20:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
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Goedheiligman is from Goedhylik man, modern Dutch goedhuwlijkman, good marriage man. He paid the dowry for three poor girls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.212.116.112 ( talk) 18:13, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Black pete (zwarte piet) is recently changed too roet piet (soot pete) i realy think this should be included — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.186.135 ( talk) 06:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
Any scholarly work will tell you so, stop removing my edit. Turks arrived in Minor Asia around 11th century with the arrival and conquest by Seljuk Turks. Myra was an Ancient Greek, Roman Greek, Byzantine Greek and even an Ottoman Greek city before Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. During the time of of Saint Nicholas. Myra was under control of the Roman Empire. There were no Turks in the area prior to the 11th century. Ozan33Ankara ( talk) 15:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Zwarte Piet already has his own article. This one is for Sinterklaas. Section 1.2 "Zwarte Piet" is much longer and cites more sources than both section 1.1 "Sinterklaas" (the focal point of this article) and the opener for the actual Zwarte Piet article.
I'm not qualified to expound on Sinterklaas, and I don't wanna go indiscriminately deleting sentences and taking an axe to citations that people spent time carefully constructing. But section 1 reads as disjointed and imbalanced. The heading for Sinterklaas is very sparse prose in the form of a short laundry list of details, devoid of any historical context or even a specified time during which the facts applied. The Zwarte Piet heading that follows is a sprawling history of Zwarte Piet over the years, across multiple eras and locales, and even includes public opinion statistics and political implications.
The rest of the article goes into more depth on Sinterklaas but those sections are much lower on the page. I think it's right for some space to be committed to describing the Zwarte Piet racism controversy, insofar as it affects interpretation and celebration of Sinterklaas. But along with the description of Zwarte Piet himself, it should probably be just a brief summary plus any details that specifically relate to or overlap with Sinterklaas, along with a link to the proper article on Zwarte Piet. If an expert can expand the Sinterklaas section sufficiently that the whole article feels equally dense, then maybe that's better. Aminomancer ( talk) 21:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't want to reopen the debate from above about Blackface, but is there another image we could possibly use on this page? Or is the fact that Zwarte Piet is typically portrayed by someone who is not black intrinsic to the character itself? Delukiel ( talk) 17:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)