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King has posted on his facebook about the incident, including a recollection from a friend who supports him, but I think this will run up against WP:SPS and WP:RS. Posting it here to let others weigh in. https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/posts/908047459234173 Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:02, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I looked for a photo on flickr and google filtered for Creative Commons. Couldn't find any. I'm somewhat suprised, since hes been so involved in BLM, and there are a lot of activist oriented photojournalists out there. In any case, since how he appears is a major source of his notability, a photo would be a good addition I think, if someone can find an appropriately licensed one. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I think the claim about King having "misled" about his race should be removed for the time being. King has stated on Twitter that "Out of LOVE for my family, I've never gone public with my racial story because it's hurtful, scandalous, and it's MY STORY" 1 and "No 2 siblings in my family have the same set of parents. We're all over the place. Some of us are not even blood relatives" 2. I think most of this will be made clear and verified by more reputable secondary sources within days. So there's no need to rush to such a claim now. "Biographies of living persons ('BLPs') must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy." WP:LIVING - Reagle ( talk) 18:42, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Story now picked up by CNN and New York Times, so very firmly in WP:WELLKNOWN at this point. I'll probably start swapping out some of the weaker sources used as they are redundant. Gaijin42 ( talk) 13:57, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
The first line under "Personal Life" should read "King claims to be biracial," rather than "King is biracial." There are clear and substantial reasons to doubt his claim to be biracial, and no evidence whatsoever (as yet) to back it up, so it should not be expressed here as if it were a fact. FireHorse ( talk) 04:40, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Both gawker and Vox have raised the issue/possibility of Steve King not being Shaun's biological father to explain the discrepancies between the documentation and King's claims. Should a sentence to that effect (attributed to gawker/vox) be added? Its speculation, but its RS speculation. This also lines up with some of the statements King made on twitter ("no two kids with same parents", "scandalous", "affairs" , etc) Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:41, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
MSNBC's Joy Reid says King told her directly that the birth certificate dad is not his biological father. I'm going to try and find either a transcript of this, or a better link to the video. http://www.mediaite.com/online/joy-reid-shaun-kings-biological-father-is-black-but-not-on-birth-certificate/ Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
This article is a classic example of why we should never write "biographies" of people that are WP:COATRACKs for 12 hours' worth of news-cycle attack stories fueled by a nakedly-partisan witch hunt, before the subject of the biography has a reasonable chance to respond to claims made about deeply-personal parts of their life. I have stripped out baseless claims, apparently-groundless information and awful sources, and I suggest that we can do better and treat our article subjects better than we have here. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 23:34, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof Id appreciate a little bit of WP:AGF. King clearly passes GNG (and likely would have passed before this blow up) but this blow up clearly dwarfs his prior notability. Count the number of words that were written about this incident in top tier RS, and then the total written about him in any capacity before, then look at WP:WEIGHT. He came up with a good explanation for the discrepancy, and I'm happy to include it prominently. As can be seen from my other edits that I was scrupulous about sourcing and including all of the evidence and arguments to the contrary. Brietbart went out on a limb on this one, and got burnt, but when the NYT, CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, Sun, Sky, etc all follow a story, thats a pretty big safety net for us, and we are supposed to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
forum speculation not appropriate for BLP |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
-- JustALittleBlack ( talk) 10:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC) According to WP 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent of one great-grandparent); 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent of one grandparent); /info/en/?search=One-drop_rule -- JustALittleBlack ( talk) 12:30, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
The recipient of 53 honorary degrees and numerous prizes, Gates was a member of the first class awarded "genius grants" by the MacArthur Foundation in 1981, and in 1998, he became the first African-American scholar to be awarded the National Humanities Medal. He publicized such genetic studies on his two series African American Lives, shown on PBS, in which the ancestry of prominent figures was explored. His experts discussed the results of autosomal DNA tests, in contrast to direct-line testing, which survey all the DNA that has been inherited from the parents of an individual.[20] Autosomal tests focus on SNPs |
Gates' research does not mention King and therefore it is WP:SYNTH to use it in support of anything in this article. That research is true, and yes, it is likely that King's biological father was himself biracial. So what, Whats the point? There were specific allegations that were notable that King had misrepresented his race/ethnicity/ancestry. I started an this article, and put those allegations in. King has now come up with a (imo) reasonable explanation for the documentation discrepancy, but more importantly, it has been accepted as reasonable by reliable sources, including the ones that were running with the original story. One can certainly debate the way that ethnicity is defined/applied in America (or the world). But this article is not the place to do so. This article is not going to get into a one drop rule debate , nor will we decide if King is a Quadroon or a Mischling. The allegations and their resolution remain notable. But its time to drop the stick that they were right. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
There are numerous RS that draw a comparison between Rachel Dolezal and the subject of this article. Several editors feel strongly that mentioning this comparison in this article is inflammatory and against wp:BLP. I thought I would post at least one RS and let other editors determine to what extent this material should be in this article. * Aaron Morrison “Is Shaun King White? Black Lives Matter Activist, Writer Responds To Conservatives' Claims He Is Another ‘Rachel Dolezal’”, International Business Times, 19 August 2015-- Nowa ( talk) 10:53, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
No, Entertainment outlets, TMZ and such that are citing the hit piece are NOT reliable sources for this type of stuff concerning BLPs. Especially considering that White Supremacists have stalked the guy, Doxxed him and his family. If there is a real journalist and an unbiased(hint, not Brietbart, Blaze, etc) that report on this, then a discussion can take place. Right now, all of the sources that are reliable state that there is no comparison and that the report was incorrect. If I have to file a case linking this to the CCC and White Supremacists, I will. Dave Dial ( talk) 22:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
It does seem like you are all over the place with your opinions on this, Dave Dial. A couple of days ago, you were calling for editors who worked on the article in a certain manner to be indeffed. You are trying to turn manner of editing and sources cited into a politically partisan issue. It all looks pretty emotional to me. And yes, I realize this a sensitive issue that stirs up emotions. But we need to sort through the emotions and get to the NPOV and what's appropriate for the article. No need to be in a rush with this, but there are parts of the story that can be included and cited responsibly. That said, there's no need to refer to editors who see it differently than you "right wingers" and call for them to be blocked. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:16, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
I brought this issue to WP:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 03:15, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
His mother told him he is part black. Other family members told CNN, and other news organizations that he is white. It seems they both should be reliable, or neither.
-- JustALittleBlack ( talk) 00:25, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I put a time filter on Google to see what might have been published about SK prior to the current controversy. Here are some references we can use to fill out the biography after the block is lifted. Feel free to comment or add more:
Nowa ( talk) 12:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof Good attempt, but I think the LAT quote is both overly long, and not directly on point. The NYT (really Daily Dot) quote is more succinct and directly on point as a contrast I think "The disgraced NAACP leader also took deliberate steps to conceal her true physical appearance, altering it with traditionally black hairstyles and spray tans,” Mr. Clifton wrote. “That’s different from being biracial and referring to oneself as either black or biracial: Racial identity is not a game of pick-and-choose."
Also, I think we need at least one quote from the "doleazal 2.0" camp, even if we couch it in terms that indicate it was a POV more strongly embraced prior to King's paternity announcement. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:33, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Comparisons have been drawn between King and Rachel Dolezal, former NAACP leader whose parents said she’s white, though she identifies as black.[30][31][32][33] King’s wife, Rai King, says: "He’s no Rachel Dolezal. What’s white about him is white, and what’s black about him is black and always has been from the time he was a child. There’s no spray tan, no fake black hairstyles, no attempt to make himself appear any more ethnic than he already does."[34][35]
His critics have drawn comparisons between King and Rachel Dolezal, but others have contrasted the two cases.[30][31][32][33][34] Writing in The Los Angeles Times, Dexter Thomas juxtaposed the cases, accusing Breitbart and right-wing media of "concern trolling" in the King case. "King’s post is a personal story. It may not satisfy the staff of Breitbart or the Daily Caller, who have amplified a call for King to submit to a DNA test. But for the time being, many prominent activists, such as DeRay McKesson, who was deeply involved in the protests after Michael Brown's killing in Ferguson, Mo., have voiced their support for King. And the community that is most involved with Black Lives Matter seems to be more interested in Shaun King’s work than they are in the color of his skin, or the history of his family," he said.[35] King’s wife, Rai King, says: "He’s no Rachel Dolezal. What’s white about him is white, and what’s black about him is black and always has been from the time he was a child. There’s no spray tan, no fake black hairstyles, no attempt to make himself appear any more ethnic than he already does."[36][37]
"more interested in his work than the color of his skin, or the history of his family" quote from the longer version. This seems like something that should be somewhere in the article, perhaps in with the Dolezal stuff or perhaps elsewhere. -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 22:17, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
It's obviously not any of those things. I'm going to keep an eye on it, but have no interest in the drama this article has attracted. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:23, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
161.202.72.152 ( talk) 18:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.I'd also note that if the comparisons in reliable sources come down to "Some compared it to this other situation, but it was nothing like that" then why even bother having it in this persons biography? — Strongjam ( talk) 18:58, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
There is a dispute as to whether the following is redundant. I thought I would post it here to see if we can reach consensus.
To get things started, I think that overall there is too much information in the article regarding the current controversy over SK's race. I'm not saying this particular information should be excluded, but I do think overall we should do a better job of summarizing. For example, we could say something like: "Several commentators have expressed their support for SK and the validity of him being described as biracial. They include....."-- Nowa ( talk) 17:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
References
The comment above, "Suppose the Daily Kos or some other left wing outlet starts making accusations against Republican candidates...", reminded me that this exactly happened with George W. Bush in his 2004 campaign. CBS released what are now regarded as faked documents demeaning GWB's national guard service. The controversy has since been broken out of his bio as a separate article: Killian documents controversy. That might be useful guidance for us-- Nowa ( talk) 17:34, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Since the article is locked down, it seems to be a good time to discuss ongoing issues. Regarding back and forth edit wars, I have noticed multiple edits which ridicule
Breitbart. The implication seems to be the allegations that King misrepresented his racial identity must be false, due to the source of the allegations. The current text, though not as inflammatory as previous version
[14] doesn't seem to add to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject. I’m referring specifically to this quote:"you have to consider the source. I don’t think they’re credible absent any actual reporting."
This doesn't make sense. Brietbart reported King’s birth certificate listed 2 white parents, and their reporting on this has been confirmed to be correct. His birth certificate lists white parents. King has since supplied a plausible and reasonable explanation for the discrepancy. These are the facts and it seems we should stick to the facts. Adding reliably sourced and neutrally worded commentary that these questions regarding King’s race have been seen by some as an attack on the greater Black Lives Matter movement, would be perhaps a better way to address bias concerns of some of those reporting on this story, but simply sneering at or ridiculing Brietbart in the article doesn’t seem appropriate. --
BoboMeowCat (
talk)
21:04, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Then you're not looking hard enough. Breitbart is most definitely NOT a reliable source for news. And cannot be used as a source of fact for BLPs. That is definitely the consensus at BLPN. Dave Dial ( talk) 02:34, 26 August 2015 (UTC)*“Why don't you fellows head over to RSN and search 'Breitbart'...“ I did. I see critics and defenders of Brietbart.com as RS. I do not see consensus.
The claim in question is that King willfully misrepresented his racial identity. That is, at this point, false and/or discredited. No serious challenge has been made to King's accounting of his racial and ethnic makeup since he publicly refuted the attack more than a week ago, and reliable sources have universally moved on and dropped the matter. Given the highly-negative nature of the attack, we are required by policy to treat living people with respect and sensitivity. It is unfair to mention a discredited, partisan attack on King in the article's lede without immediately discussing the fact that the thrust of the attack — the claim that King lied about being biracial — is fundamentally untrue. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 16:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Several of King's classmates and friends have backed King's position. Corey Richardson, a Morehouse classmate, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, “He is black. A light-skinned black guy. That is what he is."I don't know what they're basing that on, I also don't really care. It's good enough for me. — Strongjam ( talk) 21:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Its good enough for me too. I don't think its good enough for WP:WikiVoice and ignoring WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV tho. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
"In 2015, a Brietbart reporter questioned King’s biracial identity based on his birth certificate, which lists white parents. King explained that the man listed on his birth certificate is not his biological father, clarifying that his biological father is a light-skinned black man, and King expressed concern that such questions were an attempt to distract from the Black Lives Matter movement."-- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 14:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
AP has an article that goes into that as well. — Strongjam ( talk) 17:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
King's high school attack was racial, but it wasn't a hate crime, a family member told Lemon. King's family member said the cause of the altercation was about him being a white guy dating a black girl.Lemon is CNN's reporter. That passes RS. Lastly, Trayvon Martin was shot by George Zimmerman. Many reliable sources say "white Hispanic" yet Zimmerman has verifiable Black ancestors. It seems circumstances of upbringing are relevant and if CNN's Lemon and King's family member are to be believed, it appears he grew up in a white family and perceived as a white person - which is exactly why George Zimmerman was reported as white. If he really grew up with the privileges of white, heterosexual male and he is relaying that experience as the same as what black men grew up with, the AP's assessment of credibility being an issue is spot on. -- DHeyward ( talk) 19:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Corey Richardson, also a former Morehouse classmate, was blunt [...] "He is black," said Richardson, who now lives in Chicago. “A light-skinned black guy. That is what he is[17] Other people who know him were just as direct. [18]. It's a rather exceptional claim that he's misrepresented his racial identity, and per BLP we should require exceptional proof before giving them any credence. — Strongjam ( talk) 00:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
King's birth records list his parents as white. King says the person listed on his birth certificate is not his father and he was told his father was a light skin-tone black man. A family member has said King is white while his friends say he is black. His wife has stated that he has never been untruthful about his racial identity.That's it. No need for "false" or "allegations" or other loaded terms. There is no truth to be made here by Wikipedia. No claims. Only statements. -- DHeyward ( talk) 01:58, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
the cause of the altercation was about him being a white guy dating a black girl." Those that beat him up saw him as a white guy dating a black girl according to this family member. — Strongjam ( talk) 12:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
A family member tells CNN that both of King's parents are white.[19] -- DHeyward ( talk) 16:45, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
King's birth records list his parents as white. King says the person listed on his birth certificate is not his father and he was told his father was a light skin-tone black man. A family member has said King is white while his friends say he is black. His wife has stated that he has never been untruthful about his racial identity.? CNN hasn't retracted anything about what the family member said last week. There is nothing to be stated in Wikipedia's voice since we only have statements. RSes report what multiple parties have said and make no assertions that any of them are false. Neither should we, nor should we speculate. -- DHeyward ( talk) 17:27, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
the cause of the altercation was about him being a white guy dating a black girl.". In this context he could have just meant the fight was about how people perceived King. — Strongjam ( talk) 17:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
"If reliable sources report on accusations, there's nothing wrong with Wikipedia putting in that material. If the subject disputes the allegations and that's also reported by reliable sources, we of course should put that in as well. But it remains a dispute unless reliable sources report that the claims were false. Wikipedia does not get to decide the truth of the claims. The closest the article comes to reporting on the falsity of the claims is the sentence citing The New York Daily News, but in my view it's insufficient for us to say in Wikipedia's voice that the claims are categorically false...From what I read, none of what you say is in the article, so as far as I'm concerned, it's pure WP:OR. I'm letting your comments stand, but they are clearly disruptive. Encouraging other users to edit-war based on your interpretation of policy is a dangerous thing to do. My warning is an administrative action. You can disagree with it, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to incite others to violate policy."
Query. Prior to this comment, I counted 11 mentions of "right-wing" on this Talk page, all in the context of implying either unreliability of sources or malicious behaviour by individuals. Is it Wikipedia policy that "right-wing" sources are inherently unreliable? If so, could someone please point me to the relevant policy? If not, then why should it matter? It reads to me like commenters here are simply exposing their own political bias. I'm seeing accusations about a "right-wing hit job" and "doxxing by a right-wing hack"; is there any substantiation forthcoming for the claim of 'doxxing' (are we seriously applying that term now to looking up the publicly available birth certificate of a public figure who goes by his real name)?
That said, I think a reasonable argument can be made that race is as much about physical appearance as it is about ancestry. In light of which, I find the photo of King which the Daily Kos has chosen to run with, rather ironic. 76.64.33.209 ( talk) 20:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Currently we have a bit about the scholarship but no response to it. I added a bit about it not being race-based before, but it was removed as the source didn't directly say the Oprah Winfrey scholarship isn't race based. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has a statement from Morehouse that addresses that concern directly. We should change that section to something like:
Yiannopolous questioned if King had misled Oprah Winfrey by accepting an Oprah Scholarship to Morehouse College, a historically black school. [1] A Morehouse spokesperson dismissed the claim, saying that admissions and scholarship are not race-based, and that the Oprah Winfrey Scholarship at Morehouse has always been a based on need and merit. [2]
— Strongjam ( talk) 17:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
the Oprah Winfrey Scholarship at Morehouse has been a need- and merit-based scholarship since it was first awarded 26 years ago. Recipients of any race are eligible for it if they meet the academic and financial requirements." — Strongjam ( talk) 00:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
References
His being black, white, green or blue would not have determined his admission here, it looks like they talked directly to Morehouse and aren't just reporting about what was said on twitter. — Strongjam ( talk) 21:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Remove "Morehouse dismissed the questions." They spoke broadly about admission and scholarship policies and would not comment directly on King.
As for the assertion that King lied about his race to get the Winfrey scholarship, Morehouse officials scoffed at that claim Thursday." I thought "Morehouse dismissed the questions" was a more neutral summary of that. — Strongjam ( talk) 11:39, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
other sources for Morehouse that more accurately describes what they addressedNot sure why you think that. AJC is not reporting on any tweets here. The quotes are not on even on twitter (and longer than 140 chars anyway.) The source is quite clear that Morehouse dismissed any claims about the scholarship, and we should be just as clear about that in the article. Especially as this is a BLP. — Strongjam ( talk) 23:18, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
It wasn't clear to me if we had reached consensus on including the Daily News editorial. I've posted was was in the article below. I ask that no one reintroduce the material until consensus is reached. -- Nowa ( talk) 17:31, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Have any RS done an analysis of the [http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/19/did-black-lives-matter-organiser-shaun-king-mislead-oprah-winfrey-by-pretending-to-be-biracial/ original Breitbart piece?] Has anyone confirmed, for example, that the “Jeffrey Wayne King” listed on the birth certificate is in fact the white guy pictured in the Breitbart article?-- Nowa ( talk) 18:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
NowaTo answer the core of the question, I think they have not. King ended that line on inquiry (by anyone we could use) with his response, which ended the story or further investigation.For wiki purposes, I don't think we are going to be able to develop that portion further to say if that narrow portion of the story was accurate or inaccurate (or even considered accurate or inaccurate)
The name is spelled differently as well. The patent has "Jeffrey Shaun King", the birth certificate says "Jeffery Shaun King." Don't know if his drivers license is "re" or "er" but it's another moot point. It would be interesting to know when he started using "Shaun" as his name and the story behind it for background. -- DHeyward ( talk) 21:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Having a little bit of distance from the events, it's now quite clear that the "controversy," such as it was, does not belong in a form which dominates the lede of King's biography. It is highly undue weight on a single incident, as well as recentism, focusing far too much attention on a fringe personal attack which was quickly debunked and has since entirely disappeared from mainstream reliable sources. Therefore, I've removed the discussion from the lede, but of course, have left it in the body of the article, where it certainly belongs. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 17:54, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
We go with reliable sources, and a birth certificate is considered a source that, in many cases, would be considered reliableNope. By policy here it is not a reliable source. — Strongjam ( talk) 18:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Two points. 1) regardless of the truth or untruth of the allegations, the allegations are the major source of notability for king outside of the relatively small amount people already involved in or following the BLM movement. the number of people who heard his name for the first time, and the number of words written/broadcast about him in the context of this incident, dwarf anything before. The article, and therefore the lead should reflect this weight. However both the article and lead should be written in a neutral/blp compliant manner. Any major removals or reformatting I think will certainly require an RFC given how contentious this topic is 2) specifically regarding the truth or untruth, I think it is excessive to say they are "untrue" as a fact in wiki voice, but we could certainly WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV similar analysis to someone else (either some specific notable voice, or to a WP:WEASEL "analysts/media" if there are a good number thereof. I think the NYD quote being discussed elsewhere serves well in that capacity, but there could be some better formulation too. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
I thought it might be a fruitful exercise to try an reduce the Breitbart controversy in the lede to a tweet. The best I could do was 188 180 characters.--
Nowa (
talk)
13:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I think this exercise is missing a lot of nuance, and misrepresenting the original controversy. The way the tweeted version reads, it sounds like its a debate over the one drop rule, or how we define race. The core of the allegation was that King had misrepresented his race as black, and certainly the birth certificate was used as the evidence of that argument, but the alleged misrepresentation is the "meat" of the allegation, not the fact that he was one race or another. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
The category is certainly appropriate, given his direct statements and self-identification. BLP does not permit us to ignore a person's own statements when categorizing living people. King has said this in multiple reliable sources, and absent a reliable source which refutes or disproves his own statements, the categorization must reflect them. Whether or not Breitbart's allegations are "false" or "untrue" or whatever is irrelevant. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 09:37, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the naming of the category is unfortunately confusing in this circumstance. Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
With Elizabeth Warren we do a good job of phrasing and relaying relevant racial information without making judgements. We should follow that model in this article. 161.202.72.162 ( talk) 17:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Nowa has discovered and added a reliable published source which directly, in the source's voice, states that King is biracial - that he is the son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father [20]. As there are no reliable sources which directly state that King is not biracial, this reliable source is controlling. We certainly must mention Breitbart's allegations, but these now-discredited and dropped allegations do not override the factual statement of a reliable published source. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 17:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
King is, according to Rebel Magazine, the son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American fatheris as it should be. No need to continue this tangent. 161.202.72.168 ( talk) 18:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
If the substance of Breitbart's story is to allege that King misrepresented his biracial heritage, then there is no question that King's opinion of that allegation is that it's a lie. It doesn't really matter what any of us think; we're reporting King's opinion of it, and his opinion of highly-negative claims about him is inherently notable. On the other hand, if the substance of Breitbart's story is to "ask a question about King's biracial heritage because these conservative bloggers alleged he misrepresented his heritage" then we shouldn't frame the lede as "Breitbart alleges that King misrepresented his biracial heritage," we should frame it as "these conservative bloggers alleged he misrepresented his heritage." Because the idea that King misrepresented his heritage is what is the notable issue here, if anything is notable. And King has clearly stated that any such idea is a lie.
The key is that if there wasn't a claim that King had misrepresented his heritage, literally nobody would care who his parents are, and it wouldn't have even begun to become an issue of public concern. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 21:48, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I think maybe it is time we got some additional eyes on this. Artw ( talk) 21:27, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I can't find his full birth name and birth date in our sources. Per WP:BLPPRIVACY we should only have them in the article if they have been widely published in reliable sources, or sources linked to the subject. — Strongjam ( talk) 21:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Strongjam while I understand your reasoning, that reasoning would be true for every sentence in the subsequent paragraphs. It seems to make more sense to me to have 1) allegations (and the background/sourcing for them). 2) Kings response to those allegations, 3) other peoples response to them. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:27, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
This bit:
His contributions to the website have centered around civil rights issues and violence in Ferguson, Missouri and Charleston, South Carolina as well as allegations of police brutality toward the black community.
Is sourced to a Daily Kos search result. While it's a true statement, do we have a better source for this? — Strongjam ( talk) 17:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
If we're going to cite some anonymous unnamed "family member" who apparently told someone that "King was white," we're certainly going to include this direct statement sourced to GQ: King was told by his mother he was black and has lived most of his life as black. [21] This is certainly relevant to any claim that King ever "misrepresented" his racial identity. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 08:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
stating that the man listed on his birth certificate is not his biological father, that his biological father is a "light-skinned black man" and that he was told by his mother that he was black.
Note that i arrived here summoned by a bot to the RfC, and i did just make a change to the statement in question to attribute it to King. In this edit, i added "He says that..." to the claim in question. It is his claim, and i am personally inclined to believe it, but it must be attributed so that it is not in Wikivoice. I hope this makes sense. SageRad ( talk) 13:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof I agree 100% that the source says "King was told by his mother that he was black" and that is sufficient sourcing for us to repeat that statement without regard to their own sourcing. That is not sufficient sourcing to say in wikipedia's voice that King is black (although I personally think he is). My mother told me that I could be anything I want to be, even the president. That does not mean that wikipedia can say I am going to be the president. I am somewhat surprised that in the aftermath of this kerfuffle no RS has directly made a claim on King's identity in their own voice. Here are some hypothetical versions of what we could write based on this particular source
Thank you for laying it out like that, Gaijin42. "King says that his mother told him he is black" is not too bad a statement in my book. I think there is reason to double attribute. In reality it is a double attribution. It's King's statement as reported by GQ. The source does say that "King was told by his mother that he was black" but this is in a lede text preceding an interview in which King says that in his own words, and therefore it seems obvious to me that it's King's statement that his mother told him he is black, being reported in GQ. I'm dropping this stick, but i do think it's important to be very accurate as to who says what. Wikipedia policy does not ask us to shut off our brains and be robotic in our editing. It exists for very good reason, and the spirit of the guidelines is as important as the letter of the guidelines. Anyway, enough on this point for me. In case you wonder, i'm on the side of King in this controversy and i personally see this incident as a right-wing sliming attempt to discredit the BLM movement. I do not see my contention in this instance as being harmful to King's case but actually slightly helpful. SageRad ( talk) 17:36, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
I have removed mention of the Morehouse issue; as several reliable sources noted, the question itself was ill-founded, being based entirely on a fatally-wrong understanding of the scholarship as having anything whatsoever to do with someone's race. We have no need to repeat a fatally-wrong loaded "question" whose entire premise was built on ignorance. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 21:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
161.202.72.143 ( talk) 23:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)Education is important to Oprah. That's why, in 1989, Oprah worked with Morehouse College to develop the Oprah Scholars program, which has helped pay for the education of 400 black men as they pursue careers in banking, law, medicine and many other fields.
I would remind people that this article is covered by WP:BLP and removing questionable material is not only defensible, it is mandatory. The onus is firmly on anybody seeking to include content, to achieve consensus for its inclusion. Defending Wikipedia policy does not make anyone "pro-King", and to draw battle lines on the grounds that the world is divided into pro-King and anti-King is a fallacy. It is even more dangerous to replace "King" with "Truth" in this. Guy ( Help!) 08:51, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Fun though it's been watching this trainwreck do we really need to hash out the minuate of this on this page? We're already devoting to much space to the stupid nontriversey as it is - perhaps a better place to go into detail would be on the Milo Yiannopoulos or Gamergate controversy pages? Artw ( talk) 18:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
that's excruciatingly tangential100% agree, just trying to explain the connection. — Strongjam ( talk) 19:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
the mention that Goldberg was used as one of the sources seems appropriate. The terrorism charges are sufficiently unrelated from this topic that they should be removed. Im further concerned about the troll moniker, I think we would need a good number of RS calling him such to put that in wiki voice (or include at all). Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
There are currently several statements in the article in wikivoice evaluating the allegations regarding King's family. eg "writer reported on untrue allegations" and " blogger [...] who falsely claimed King had misrepresented his biracial identity"
King's birth records list his parents as white. King says the person listed on his birth certificate is not his father and he was told his father was a light skin-tone black man. A family member has said King is white while his friends say he is black. His wife has stated that he has never been untruthful about his racial identity.That's about all we know and we attribute views to those that hold them. We don't judge their views as "false" and it's not a crime to be white, black, biracial or anything in between so there is no need to allege anything. We aren't (and shouldn't) claim anyone in the story has lied. -- DHeyward ( talk) 01:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article includes prominent mentions of recent allegations made by the Breitbart site, including over half of the lede. Is this a reasonable amount or should it be cut back? Artw ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:53, 13 September 2015
In August 2015, a Breitbart writer questioned King's biracial identity based on information from King's birth certificate, which lists white parents. King explained that the man listed on his birth certificate is not his biological father, and that his biological father is a light-skinned black man, and King expressed concern that such questions were an attempt to distract from the Black Lives Matter movement."-- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 22:40, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Collapsing totally off-topic, useless discussion
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Attacking editors who !vote for keeping the content by saying they have a nefarious agenda and referring to them as birthers is bullshit. Keep it out of the discussion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
The two reliable sources cited for King's racial heritage speak of the matter as a fact, and do not attribute it to King. Therefore, The matter is not one of POV, it is a statement of fact supported by those reliable sources. Rewriting the text supported by those sources to say "King says" is not only inaccurate, it is an intentional misrepresentation of the sources. We deal with the issue of what his birth certificate says elsewhere. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 04:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the word "Controversy" from the subheading, because the reliable sources don't support the idea that there is any significant "controversy" about this issue; there is no evidence that this involved any substantive "ongoing, prolonged public disagreement" between parties, given the fact that King and Rice's family's attorneys later collaborated on a second fundraiser. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 04:13, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure where this link should go but this piece from The Daily Beast has information that might be noteworthy. Where Did All the Money Shaun King Raised for Black Lives Go? GamerPro64 19:52, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
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I believe controversy associated with this activist isn't highlighted enough. My suggestion is to create a "controversy" section that would include the issue of his race, over thousands deleted offensive tweets and misappropriation of funds he has raised for activism.
This Daily Beast article is well written and the author provides numerous links (IRS and Fundme) and other evidence to back their research in regards to Shaun King's misappropriation of charity funds. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/16/where-did-all-the-money-shaun-king-raised-for-black-lives-go.html
This Daily Caller article provides screen-grabs of some of thousand of offensive tweets by Shaun King. (ones he later deleted) http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/07/shaun-king-scrubs-twitter-account-after-pro-gun-tweets-surface/
Majority of citation refer to newspapers with unambiguous political bias (Washington post, Daily Kos) The aforementioned additions should should make the page more politically balanced. 66.155.225.131 ( talk) 04:04, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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2602:30A:C03D:62B0:805C:94E8:16B2:BE1B (
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04:11, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
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I would like to remove where it says "African American" under the top portion where it says "Shaun King is an African American writer and civil rights activist." Shaun King has been proven not to be African American and I would request this be changed to a more accurate title.
Bruce233 (
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19:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Shan King is NOT African-American — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninjaboss1313 ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
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Greetings,
Two months ago, Shaun King reached out to the Wikipedia community to make corrections to his Wikipedia page. I responded to ask what the errors were, and here is his reply:
"Thanks for addressing my concerns. My Wikipedia page has a number of errors. Could you please address them? Much of the information can be confirmed here: http://www.snopes.com/2015/08/19/shaun-king/ . Here's a list of the problems on my page:
1. Name misspelled – correct spelling: Jeffery Shaun King. It has been misspelled as Jeffrey.
2. "Early Life" - omitted information and errors:
I entered Morehouse College, a historically black college for me, in August of 1997. In March of 1999, I won the Otis Moss Oratorical Contest in front of the student body and was, a month later, elected the youngest student government president elected since 1947.
I was a Bonner Scholar - which required me to perform community service, from 1997 forward. It was as a Bonner Scholar that I performed regular community service at Frank L. Stanton Elementary School.
During my junior year at Morehouse, I had a spinal surgery stemming from the injuries I suffered when I was assaulted in high school. When I returned, I was given the Oprah Winfrey Scholarship. I didn't apply for it. It was granted to "diamonds in the rough" we were told.
3. Activism- omitted information and errors:
I have been an activist and spokesperson against injustice since 1997 - first leading rallies on the campus of Morehouse College as a student leader dealing with the sentencing disparities between crack and cocaine and later against the shooting deaths of Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell. It's how I became known as a student.
4. "Tamir Rice Fundraising"- omitted information and errors:
a. We started the fundraiser for Tamir Rice after being given direct permission & encouragement by his uncle to do so. I was told that he was the spokesperson for the family. b. We started it after we saw an interview where his mother, Samaria, said she would soon have to go to work. c. Racist trolls and bigots aimed to stop the campaign because I was a part of it. They contacted the attorney, who was confused and had the account shut down. d. Samaria Rice fired that attorney. He then petitioned the court that he be paid from the money we raised from the family and was paid from it. e. At no time did we ever have possession of the funds that were raised. f. The family and her attorneys and I have worked together many times since.
I have helped raise nearly a million for causes and families related to the Black Lives Matter Movement and have not received a dime of it.
5. High School Assault – omitted information and inaccuracies:
a. I missed nearly 18 months of school after the assault to have three spinal surgeries. b. I had fractures in my face and ribs c. I had severely damaged sinus cavities d. The worst injuries were to my lower back/spine
This one is of particular import:
e. The detective who visited me in the hospital checked a box saying I was white. That police report has been used as proof that I am white. Here is what that detective said about it in an interview :
Detective Keith Broughton, who was the officer on the scene of the alleged hate crime, told IJReview: “I believe that he’s biracial. I could just tell when I saw him. I marked him white because he’s very light complected. He was there with his white mother. My crime report there’s only two things you can check: black or white. It doesn’t say biracial…anyone from around here who knew him knew he was mixed.” (Source: http://ijr.com/2015/08/398828-witness-shaun-kings-high-school-hate-crime-shares-remembers-day/ )
Many other very essential facts are in that story pertaining to race as well.
6. Under questions regarding race:
a. The source, Milo, has been banned from Twitter for racial antagonism. b. The source, Milo, has said a dozen other disproved assertions about me that are not mentioned here. c. The source for Milo, Vicki Pate, has also been banned from Twitter for violating terms of use. d. Again, the Versailles detective, who I had never met before, said "anyone from around here who knew him knew he was mixed." My race was never a secret. It was well known, and that was in 1995. "
Can someone please make these corrections? If you would like further information or if you would like information to reach Shaun King directly, feel free to contact me by email.
Much appreciated, Gohoya ( talk) 00:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)Gohoya
Gohoya (
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00:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
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Mr. King is not African American but Caucasian. Please fix this error.
StephenHopkins53 (
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13:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Does anyone have a reliable source, a publication of his DNA test results? (Redacted) If we can neither confirm or deny anything about his race with real scientific sources as opposed to anecdotal claims, perhaps it is best to make no claims about his race, be it african-american or caucasian; just leave his race unlisted. Better to be lacking information than possibly be displaying erroneous information. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 04:39, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
I have been told for most of my life that the white man on my birth certificate is not my biological father and that my actual biological father is a light-skinned black manand in their own words
He has said that his mother is white and his father is black and that the assault fueled his passion for helping people.Both of these are couched in terms of self reporting, they are not the claims of the source themselves. I will remove the claims again until a source stating his race is provided per WP:BLP. SPACKlick ( talk) 23:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
The son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father.Your edit disregards and indeed misrepresents the content of that source, and at this point, that misrepresentation must be considered willful. Please do not change reliably-sourced text in a manner that isn't supported by those sources. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 23:54, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
]]. This topic comes up in lots of areas of guidance (see Penn State's advice to mentors). So I say again, we need at least one source claiming that Shaun is an African American as opposed to any other black identity for wikipedia to ascribe that identity to him. I suspect from his writings that he does identify that way but I can only find writings where he refers to himself as black and where he refers to his father as black and where his company is referred to as Black Owned. SPACKlick ( talk) 00:36, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
...when King's claim to being African-American was questioned in a story on Breitbart.com.24
the winner of the most creative social good campaign in 2010, was a Black-owned company.15(although it doesn't specifically say Shaun owns the company),
He publicly identified as black throughout high school, and said by the time he went to college he “had honestly moved on from even wanting to know the details of who [his mother] slept with in January of 1979.”1,
“If you have known me from when I was in elementary school at Huntertown Elementary until now, you’ve known me as black or bi-racial.”& summarising his own article
By middle school, King identified not as biracial, but as black. His friends were black, his girlfriends were black. That was it.& in their own words
As a teenager he was beaten for being black.28,
Traugott didn't want to comment on King's race,37, of breitbart
wrote in Breitbart, a conservative website, that King is not black or biracial& from a local
These rednecks beat him because he is or came off to be BLACK.& in their own voice
is there any way to conclusively figure out who's right, and whether King is black or biracial? Unfortunately, no&
even if King's family members identify as white, black, or something else, it's entirely plausible for King to identify as black or biracial&
If King isn't black or biracial, the movement may have a harder time accepting him as a leader43,
in his response to the allegation that he misrepresented his race and passed for black when he's actually white.& quoting Don Lemon
Initially, he did not answer but later referred to himself as biracial45,
Mr. King, who has long identified as black,48.
Due to lack of proper sources, it seems best to remove the claim for now. In addition to the already-changed lede this also should be accompanied with the removal from the "Personal Life" section the claim that King is the "biological son of ... an African-American father". I advise any critics that a removal of a claim is not a declaration of the polar opposite, and many BLP articles exist that do not make any claims on their subject's race. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 18:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
The article states: "Midway through his education he had to take a medical leave". One might possibly infer that the cause for being on medical leave had something to do with the fact that starting at age 17 he was undergoing a total of three spinal surgeries. It would be useful to put this information into the article, but I don't feel comfortable with the connection and would rather "stick to the source". After all the reason for medical leave could have been PTSD for all I know. Does anyone have an inkling on the reason for medical leave? It would sure help in the search for information. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 23:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
As a side note of looking into the sources from above, sources 7,8,21,22&23 appear to be no longer available, Source 27 points to a blank search page at the Daily Kos. Sources 45 and 47 point to the same article but 45 has a different apparent title. SPACKlick ( talk) 04:46, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-stand-star-spangled-banner-article-1.2770075 Is this a relevant example of his activism? I'll leave it up to someone else to add it into the article. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 03:54, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
From Reliable Sources Noticeboard: (Archive 212)
Digging around I found out that this "Rebel Magazine" is not even the Rebel Magazine we have an article on ( [38]), but instead some obscure Arizona Christian publication. A publication so non-notable that it doesn't even have an article on Wikipedia, and so poorly managed that none of their websites ( [39] [40]) are even functional (though they do have a facebook page [41]. Therefore this source should not be considered as reliable on any article, including Shaun_King_(activist) (which by the way is the only article trying to use it as a source). - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 03:16, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
after 6 days following the final comment the discussion was moved to archives.
I recommend adding information about King's latest activist project, the Injustice Boycott, described at: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-boycott-injustice-police-brutality-article-1.2812999 Robertbeal ( talk) 20:14, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Black is by definition dark. What is the meaning of describing someone as "light-skinned black man" or white-skinned black man?
He is white and identify as black, fine. The article should just state that he identifies himself as culturally black (as
Rachel Dolezal does). But pretending that white is black is a far-fetched POV.--
Onesbrief (
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23:54, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
These 'reliable sources' don't confirm that Shaun King is black, they confirm that he CLAIMS he's black. As it stands, he looks white and his biological parents are both white. The burden of proof is on King to substantiate his allegation that his birth certificate is a lie, which he could easily do with a DNA test. The fact that he's flat out refused to do so should set the matter to rest. He's another wannabe like Rachel Dolezal. 73.114.151.90 ( talk) 16:25, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Family members and classmates have stated that they understood King to be biracial growing up.
Is this seriously the standard that this website uses for evidence? People "understood" him as biracial? So that makes him biracial? So if I "understand" that gravity is false, you should take my position seriously?
In the "Personal Life" section it is claimed that "King is the biological son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father". This claim only uses two sources, one which lacks an established reputation of reliability (rebelmagazine) [ [46]], and one (Black Enterprise) which refers to TwitChange as a "black-owned business", but does not state that King is the sole owner. (In fact the same Black Enterprise in another article suggests another black man, Shelton Mercer, owns TwitChange [ [47]]). Please find better sources. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 21:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
MSNBC correspondent Joy Reid defended King, stating that his father was in fact black, but that his biological father is not the same man who is listed on his birth certificate.The Blaze
the white man on my birth certificate is not my biological father and that my actual biological father is a light-skinned black man. ... After that day when I was first asked if I was mixed, while I was still a very young child, kids and their well-intentioned parents began telling me they knew who my black father was, that I was so and so’s cousin, etc.Daily Kos
I've redacted a BLP violation in the above post; do not use Wikipedia talk pages as places to repeat your personal opinions about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 03:20, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Read the sentence you are returning it does not say "King was raised in the knowledge/belief his father was a light skinned black man" it says "King is the biological son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father" We have no source for his father being African American, and you yourself agreed that claim would be more appropriate couched in terms of King's knowledge. I'm trying right now to find a source talking about King being raised by two white parents but I'm struggling to find one that's unambiguous, as I said above I'm sure it exists, I've read it in the last 48 hours. Till then, don't put the rubbish sentence back as is. SPACKlick ( talk) 13:56, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
irrelevant. the troll and blogger are Joshua Goldberg and Vicki Pate
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75.140.253.89 (
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02:50, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
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@ NorthBySouthBaranof: you say above that we have a source that states this in its own words, which source and what is the quote? SPACKlick ( talk) 20:58, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
since NorthBySouthBaranof has repeatedly ignored all requests for identification of the source, what do we do now? Do we continue on as if he never made that comment? - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 03:33, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Having no reputation is often considered nearly as bad as having a bad reputation. No one offered any any proof of reliability, while I offered some things that suggest that their editorial judgement is a bit flawed. Where do we go from here? - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 19:58, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
The Daily Mail has interviewed his family who have stated his biological parents are white and the fight was not motivated because he was African-American but in a mixed race relationship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bgrus22 ( talk • contribs) 08:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
The Daily Mail is anonymous?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.82.230 ( talk) 03:34, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Here's how the information about King's father was treated in three sources: a less prominent and defunct online magazine (Rebel), and two prominent news organizations (Washington Post and New York Times).
2012 Rebel Magazine [51] –
2015 Washington Post [52] –
and
2015 New York Times [53]
Considering the relative weight of the above sources, and relative clearness about where the sources got the information, it looks like we should attribute the information about King's father to King, rather than to state it as a fact. --
Bob K31416 (
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13:04, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The New York Times said that King said...but removing the existing sourced statement of fact is right out. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 05:11, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Someone omitted that King's police report labels him as White during the altercation he had in 1995. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.81.22.108 ( talk) 03:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 17:23, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Shaun King (activist) → Shaun King – The activist is the Primary Topic. Page views: 600,923 vs. 40,056. Mark Schierbecker ( talk) 09:21, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
No objections based on numbers can be made. Even comparing just the Shaun King of this article against the sum of all the other Shaun Kings (and Sean, and Shawn), he still dominates the percentage of page views. The only possible argument someone could make is that the others have seniority. And I guess that Shaun Earl King is still making headlines as USF coach. 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 04:08, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
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I would like to go over minor spelling revisions and some source additions. Charles DeMange ( talk) 19:53, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
This sentence, for instance, "The money went to the organization that provided what the person's needs, not to the person individually." It makes no logical sense. I would like to change it to something more grammatical. Charles DeMange ( talk) 20:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
I have removed an edit from this page which was solely sourced to the Daily Caller, a right-wing source unuseful here except for reporting attributed opinions. That some group or another has demanded something or other from King is not particularly notable if the only source for it is a conservative house organ; people aren't generally required to answer unsolicited demands. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 05:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
There are a lot of those statements on Wikipedia, I'd like to know what arbitrary Wikipedia rule, voted on by 40 out of 30,000 members are you referring to for authority? Further, I don't think Vox or this 'Rebel magazine' are any way less biased a source than The Daily Caller, nor do I suppose such bias is relevant more than the merit of an argument or claim, everyone quoted by King or his friends are unnamed third, or fourth-hand witnesses and acquaintances of his - That is an entirely scurrilous quote, he may as well have made that up himself, who? 'someone he knows' - Unverifiable. (Redacted), - More of a question to me is why white, 21st century men want to be perceived as black? Once upon a time immigrants, Indians, blacks, mulattos and half-breeds, etc. would change their names, dress and groom themselves in such a manner and seek to appear more white, now even in relatively small-town Kentucky the cultural and racial stigma of whites, or the cultural and racial appeal and esteem of blacks results in whites affecting the dress, speech, cultural customs and politics of blacks, or at least of their perception of black culture. - If I thought for half a second that even with a hundred references such an article could survive on Wikipedia I might just right such a one.
I would like to say though, as a matter of due process and common courtesy, leaving a short explanation for a reversion, or for the removal of any content either on Wikipedia or elsewhere should be given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikkerdySplit ( talk • contribs) 14:57, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
I see that a similar edit was reverted a while ago. Another Daily Caller piece published excerpts of some Kentucky court files, including a scan of one letter that labeled King as a "16 year old Black male", with an annotation circling the word Black and script denoting "parent states this is incorrect". This is a secondary source (cited in almost 100 other articles) that is publishing primary information. Are the curators of this wiki's article stating that the court documents are fraudulent, or are they just objecting to the publication itself? 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 22:16, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Since we have to be concerned with the requirements for biographies of living persons, we need to be careful with sourcing from biased publications, especially with regards to defamatory/derogatory information. TheBlaze is considered to be biased from a right-wing POV. Therefore, if any contentious material (like is being added by Campbell301) is wished to be kept, editors seeking to add this kind of content need to find more reliable sources. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 18:27, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
What is the evidence or reference provided for King's belonging to 'African-American' categories? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikkerdySplit ( talk • contribs) 15:04, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
I've removed a cite to the Daily Caller:
Neutrality talk 05:04, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
yeah, pretty much, since the source is at best of questionable reliability and since there is an alternative better source, what exactly is the point of trying to cram it in there? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 05:08, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Smelling blood in the water, @dailycaller and @TuckerCarlson wrote this piece about me. All lies. Shaun King 8/19/2015. TDC can't be written out and quite frankly it's much better for King if they are used as a source in combination with the NYT rather than as King's adversary that get backed up by the NYT. TDC as one of the originating sources appears to be reliabe and accurate. Being backed up by the NYT should add to that but we don't take out the original source when another source substantiates what they published. At the bottom of the NYT story they even have a correction
An earlier version of this article misidentified who originally obtained a police report about an assault involving Shaun King. The report was first obtained by The Daily Caller, not Vicki Pate.-- DHeyward ( talk) 06:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Xparasite9, can you point exactly to where this consensus against its use is? Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 21:55, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
reliability has never been established for rebel magazine and no one has bothered to try to establish reliability despite that problem being pointed out a plurality of times. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&oldid=739903931 Xparasite9 ( talk) 22:30, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
What happens when all of your "approved sources" are completely biased? You have Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.207.237 ( talk) 14:54, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Meh. Sources say whatever the citor says they say as long as other editors don't check, don't care, or are aligned with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.82.230 ( talk) 04:25, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
I have reverted these edits on several grounds. Firstly, to state that it was merely a "belief" does not comport with the source, which states that King's mother told him of that fact. Secondly, the source cited for the police officer section does not state that people who knew him knew him as biracial "because of his physical appearance" - that's simply not supported by the source. Thirdly, to source that King has written about his experiences as a biracial person is trivial to source and should not be removed - if you think it needs a source, tag it as such, or doc it yourself, as I have just done. Thanks. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 21:46, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
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"King grew up in Versailles, Kentucky. He was raised by his white mother and white adoptive father, Jeffrey King. King grew up" should be changed to "King grew up in Versailles, Kentucky. He was raised by his white mother. King grew up..."
There is no evidence to support that Jeffrey King is not Shaun King's father, let alone his "adoptive" father. Unless there is evidence out there to support otherwise, Jeffrey King is listed on his birth certificate and no where does it say he's his ADOPTIVE father. I think that line should be removed and changed to the proposed one above. Swreynolds7 ( talk) 16:16, 1 August 2017 (UTC) Swreynolds7 ( talk) 17:04, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
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jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (
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21:20, 1 August 2017 (UTC)What consensus am I missing? The page is inaccurate and needs to be fixed, as stated above. Jeffrey King is not his adoptive Father, rather the Father that is listed on his birth certificate. Whether or not the mother had an extramarital affair is not relevant - his birth certificate says Jeffrey King is his father. If that is not enough evidence then just remove the adoptive portion all-together as we can agree that it is false. Swreynolds7 ( talk) 14:52, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
As of August 2017, Shaun King is no longer a writer for the NY Daily News. He also has not appeared on the Young Turks webcast since at least May 2017, leading to speculation that he has left his position there as well. He is currently a writer for the Fair Punishment Project at Harvard University. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mascan42 ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
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Shaun King is a white man Elijah541 ( talk) 14:20, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Shaun King (American football) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:30, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Shaun King → Shaun King (activist) – The activist's prominence has dwindled over the past year and is no longer the unquestionable Primary Topic he was this time last year. Page views: 56,151 vs. 32,893. Additionally requesting the default Shaun King page to be a disambiguation redirect, though I'm not sure how to formally do that. -- Xparasite9 ( talk) 20:53, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
Per WP:CATV, Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. The article and the sources attribute King's race claims to King himself, and only says about the classmates that they "understood King to be biracial growing up" which doesn't support King's race at all. If the sources don't explicitly state that King is African-American, then per WP:CATDEF: A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having, the categories should be removed. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) wumbolo ^^^ 22:32, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/05/21/texas-police-address-sherita-dixon-cole-arrest-controversy/ and http://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article211734544.html - deserves a paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1300:16E:E979:3587:9A54:ED60 ( talk) 18:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
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Include the story of Shaun King pushing for vigilante justice on the Texas Trooper who was unjustly accused of sexual assault by a DWI driver.
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/05/23/she-said-she-was-raped-by-a-state-trooper-his-camera-footage-shows-otherwise/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cd8fa67d7c7e Brotato42 ( talk) 05:13, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Article contains this statement regarding Jazmine’s shooting: 7-year old Barnes was killed in a drive-by shooting in Houston at 7 a.m. December 30, 2019. Obviously that is an error. The year was 2018. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.140.172.47 ( talk) 11:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I've added two tags to the article, POV and Overly Detailed.
POV - Significant slant in King's favor. Phrasing bolstering King's responses where in other articles, the subject's personal responses (on social media or elsewhere) are ommitted or given far less weight.
Overly detailed - e.g. reason for becoming a pastor (subject is known as activist, other activities are not as relevant), recent car accident, etc.
I.am.a.qwerty ( talk) 03:17, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
In 2015, conservative media outlets published multiple pieces seeking to discredit King's account of the assault.[11] Conservative outlets, citing interviews with the investigating detective Keith Broughton and police reports on the case, reported that the fight was a one-on-one between King and another boy over a girl and that the injuries were minor.[10] Keith Broughton, the investigating detective, said he interviewed multiple witnesses, including a teacher who broke up the fight, who characterized the fight as a one-on-one altercation.[10]
This is almost never how information is reported on in Wikipedia... these "conservative outlets" aren't publishing opinion pieces about Shaun King's alleged assault, or if they do it is not being added to this Wikipedia article. Therefore it is irrelevant what their political leaning is, the only thing being written about here is the interview of the detective and the police reports. Prefacing these statements of fact with "conservative outlets" is seeking to discredit what's being written.
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Please add the following text to the "Fundraising Controversies" section after the sentence, "He wrote an editorial explaining the purpose of taking legal action and addressed some specific critiques levied against him." The text is to be inserted as below:
On August 31, 2019, a 72 page financial audit report prepared by a team of experts in justice reform, tax law, finance and accounting, and compliance was released. The team examined King's financial materials from fundraisers promoted through his social media accounts, Real Justice PAC, and Action PAC. Additionally, a review of King's full tax returns for 2013-2017 was performed and compared to his public fundraising from 2014-2019. King also granted the team full unlimited access to checking accounts, savings accounts, credit cards, retirement accounts, and money management software. In the report, the Financial Review Board concluded, "In short, we find absolutely no evidence that Shaun has ever inappropriately accessed any funds that he has raised. We searched and we asked. Not one single family, charity, cause or campaign said Shaun was ever compensated, directly, or indirectly, for his online fundraising. In fact, it appears that with the exception of his compensation through Real Justice PAC, Shaun has received zero compensation for the fundraising he promoted. The exhaustive documentation to substantiate our findings, including every statement from every family and attorney, can be found below." To support this conclusion, a breakdown of financial appropriations from King's fundraisers demonstrated how the $34.5 M total funds raised since the Black Lives Matter movement began has been appropriated.
[1] Nthenry08 ( talk) 07:33, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
References
this proposition seems unsupported:
"Family members and classmates have stated that they understood King to be biracial growing up. [1] [2]"
First of all, those citations do not seem to say that anywhere?
Second of all, what "family members" plural? I did see something from his wife elsewhere on web, but nothing else. Nothing from his brothers, the late Jason King and veteran/electrician Russ King. Nothing from his mother. Nothing from Jeffrey Wayne King, man listed as father on his birth certificate.
Third of all, we would need a citation for this "friends said" assertion, if we can find one.
Why does this sentence remain on Wikipedia? Bhdshoes2 ( talk) 23:59, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
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this article needs to draw attention to the whole reason this man became famous, by pretending to be a different race than he actually is 2600:1700:34B0:1520:2974:9296:B332:F8E6 ( talk) 22:28, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
King has posted on his facebook about the incident, including a recollection from a friend who supports him, but I think this will run up against WP:SPS and WP:RS. Posting it here to let others weigh in. https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/posts/908047459234173 Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:02, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I looked for a photo on flickr and google filtered for Creative Commons. Couldn't find any. I'm somewhat suprised, since hes been so involved in BLM, and there are a lot of activist oriented photojournalists out there. In any case, since how he appears is a major source of his notability, a photo would be a good addition I think, if someone can find an appropriately licensed one. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I think the claim about King having "misled" about his race should be removed for the time being. King has stated on Twitter that "Out of LOVE for my family, I've never gone public with my racial story because it's hurtful, scandalous, and it's MY STORY" 1 and "No 2 siblings in my family have the same set of parents. We're all over the place. Some of us are not even blood relatives" 2. I think most of this will be made clear and verified by more reputable secondary sources within days. So there's no need to rush to such a claim now. "Biographies of living persons ('BLPs') must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy." WP:LIVING - Reagle ( talk) 18:42, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Story now picked up by CNN and New York Times, so very firmly in WP:WELLKNOWN at this point. I'll probably start swapping out some of the weaker sources used as they are redundant. Gaijin42 ( talk) 13:57, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
The first line under "Personal Life" should read "King claims to be biracial," rather than "King is biracial." There are clear and substantial reasons to doubt his claim to be biracial, and no evidence whatsoever (as yet) to back it up, so it should not be expressed here as if it were a fact. FireHorse ( talk) 04:40, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Both gawker and Vox have raised the issue/possibility of Steve King not being Shaun's biological father to explain the discrepancies between the documentation and King's claims. Should a sentence to that effect (attributed to gawker/vox) be added? Its speculation, but its RS speculation. This also lines up with some of the statements King made on twitter ("no two kids with same parents", "scandalous", "affairs" , etc) Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:41, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
MSNBC's Joy Reid says King told her directly that the birth certificate dad is not his biological father. I'm going to try and find either a transcript of this, or a better link to the video. http://www.mediaite.com/online/joy-reid-shaun-kings-biological-father-is-black-but-not-on-birth-certificate/ Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
This article is a classic example of why we should never write "biographies" of people that are WP:COATRACKs for 12 hours' worth of news-cycle attack stories fueled by a nakedly-partisan witch hunt, before the subject of the biography has a reasonable chance to respond to claims made about deeply-personal parts of their life. I have stripped out baseless claims, apparently-groundless information and awful sources, and I suggest that we can do better and treat our article subjects better than we have here. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 23:34, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof Id appreciate a little bit of WP:AGF. King clearly passes GNG (and likely would have passed before this blow up) but this blow up clearly dwarfs his prior notability. Count the number of words that were written about this incident in top tier RS, and then the total written about him in any capacity before, then look at WP:WEIGHT. He came up with a good explanation for the discrepancy, and I'm happy to include it prominently. As can be seen from my other edits that I was scrupulous about sourcing and including all of the evidence and arguments to the contrary. Brietbart went out on a limb on this one, and got burnt, but when the NYT, CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, Sun, Sky, etc all follow a story, thats a pretty big safety net for us, and we are supposed to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
forum speculation not appropriate for BLP |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
-- JustALittleBlack ( talk) 10:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC) According to WP 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent of one great-grandparent); 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent of one grandparent); /info/en/?search=One-drop_rule -- JustALittleBlack ( talk) 12:30, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
The recipient of 53 honorary degrees and numerous prizes, Gates was a member of the first class awarded "genius grants" by the MacArthur Foundation in 1981, and in 1998, he became the first African-American scholar to be awarded the National Humanities Medal. He publicized such genetic studies on his two series African American Lives, shown on PBS, in which the ancestry of prominent figures was explored. His experts discussed the results of autosomal DNA tests, in contrast to direct-line testing, which survey all the DNA that has been inherited from the parents of an individual.[20] Autosomal tests focus on SNPs |
Gates' research does not mention King and therefore it is WP:SYNTH to use it in support of anything in this article. That research is true, and yes, it is likely that King's biological father was himself biracial. So what, Whats the point? There were specific allegations that were notable that King had misrepresented his race/ethnicity/ancestry. I started an this article, and put those allegations in. King has now come up with a (imo) reasonable explanation for the documentation discrepancy, but more importantly, it has been accepted as reasonable by reliable sources, including the ones that were running with the original story. One can certainly debate the way that ethnicity is defined/applied in America (or the world). But this article is not the place to do so. This article is not going to get into a one drop rule debate , nor will we decide if King is a Quadroon or a Mischling. The allegations and their resolution remain notable. But its time to drop the stick that they were right. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
There are numerous RS that draw a comparison between Rachel Dolezal and the subject of this article. Several editors feel strongly that mentioning this comparison in this article is inflammatory and against wp:BLP. I thought I would post at least one RS and let other editors determine to what extent this material should be in this article. * Aaron Morrison “Is Shaun King White? Black Lives Matter Activist, Writer Responds To Conservatives' Claims He Is Another ‘Rachel Dolezal’”, International Business Times, 19 August 2015-- Nowa ( talk) 10:53, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
No, Entertainment outlets, TMZ and such that are citing the hit piece are NOT reliable sources for this type of stuff concerning BLPs. Especially considering that White Supremacists have stalked the guy, Doxxed him and his family. If there is a real journalist and an unbiased(hint, not Brietbart, Blaze, etc) that report on this, then a discussion can take place. Right now, all of the sources that are reliable state that there is no comparison and that the report was incorrect. If I have to file a case linking this to the CCC and White Supremacists, I will. Dave Dial ( talk) 22:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
It does seem like you are all over the place with your opinions on this, Dave Dial. A couple of days ago, you were calling for editors who worked on the article in a certain manner to be indeffed. You are trying to turn manner of editing and sources cited into a politically partisan issue. It all looks pretty emotional to me. And yes, I realize this a sensitive issue that stirs up emotions. But we need to sort through the emotions and get to the NPOV and what's appropriate for the article. No need to be in a rush with this, but there are parts of the story that can be included and cited responsibly. That said, there's no need to refer to editors who see it differently than you "right wingers" and call for them to be blocked. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:16, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
I brought this issue to WP:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 03:15, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
His mother told him he is part black. Other family members told CNN, and other news organizations that he is white. It seems they both should be reliable, or neither.
-- JustALittleBlack ( talk) 00:25, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I put a time filter on Google to see what might have been published about SK prior to the current controversy. Here are some references we can use to fill out the biography after the block is lifted. Feel free to comment or add more:
Nowa ( talk) 12:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof Good attempt, but I think the LAT quote is both overly long, and not directly on point. The NYT (really Daily Dot) quote is more succinct and directly on point as a contrast I think "The disgraced NAACP leader also took deliberate steps to conceal her true physical appearance, altering it with traditionally black hairstyles and spray tans,” Mr. Clifton wrote. “That’s different from being biracial and referring to oneself as either black or biracial: Racial identity is not a game of pick-and-choose."
Also, I think we need at least one quote from the "doleazal 2.0" camp, even if we couch it in terms that indicate it was a POV more strongly embraced prior to King's paternity announcement. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:33, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Comparisons have been drawn between King and Rachel Dolezal, former NAACP leader whose parents said she’s white, though she identifies as black.[30][31][32][33] King’s wife, Rai King, says: "He’s no Rachel Dolezal. What’s white about him is white, and what’s black about him is black and always has been from the time he was a child. There’s no spray tan, no fake black hairstyles, no attempt to make himself appear any more ethnic than he already does."[34][35]
His critics have drawn comparisons between King and Rachel Dolezal, but others have contrasted the two cases.[30][31][32][33][34] Writing in The Los Angeles Times, Dexter Thomas juxtaposed the cases, accusing Breitbart and right-wing media of "concern trolling" in the King case. "King’s post is a personal story. It may not satisfy the staff of Breitbart or the Daily Caller, who have amplified a call for King to submit to a DNA test. But for the time being, many prominent activists, such as DeRay McKesson, who was deeply involved in the protests after Michael Brown's killing in Ferguson, Mo., have voiced their support for King. And the community that is most involved with Black Lives Matter seems to be more interested in Shaun King’s work than they are in the color of his skin, or the history of his family," he said.[35] King’s wife, Rai King, says: "He’s no Rachel Dolezal. What’s white about him is white, and what’s black about him is black and always has been from the time he was a child. There’s no spray tan, no fake black hairstyles, no attempt to make himself appear any more ethnic than he already does."[36][37]
"more interested in his work than the color of his skin, or the history of his family" quote from the longer version. This seems like something that should be somewhere in the article, perhaps in with the Dolezal stuff or perhaps elsewhere. -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 22:17, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
It's obviously not any of those things. I'm going to keep an eye on it, but have no interest in the drama this article has attracted. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:23, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
161.202.72.152 ( talk) 18:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.I'd also note that if the comparisons in reliable sources come down to "Some compared it to this other situation, but it was nothing like that" then why even bother having it in this persons biography? — Strongjam ( talk) 18:58, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
There is a dispute as to whether the following is redundant. I thought I would post it here to see if we can reach consensus.
To get things started, I think that overall there is too much information in the article regarding the current controversy over SK's race. I'm not saying this particular information should be excluded, but I do think overall we should do a better job of summarizing. For example, we could say something like: "Several commentators have expressed their support for SK and the validity of him being described as biracial. They include....."-- Nowa ( talk) 17:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
References
The comment above, "Suppose the Daily Kos or some other left wing outlet starts making accusations against Republican candidates...", reminded me that this exactly happened with George W. Bush in his 2004 campaign. CBS released what are now regarded as faked documents demeaning GWB's national guard service. The controversy has since been broken out of his bio as a separate article: Killian documents controversy. That might be useful guidance for us-- Nowa ( talk) 17:34, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Since the article is locked down, it seems to be a good time to discuss ongoing issues. Regarding back and forth edit wars, I have noticed multiple edits which ridicule
Breitbart. The implication seems to be the allegations that King misrepresented his racial identity must be false, due to the source of the allegations. The current text, though not as inflammatory as previous version
[14] doesn't seem to add to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject. I’m referring specifically to this quote:"you have to consider the source. I don’t think they’re credible absent any actual reporting."
This doesn't make sense. Brietbart reported King’s birth certificate listed 2 white parents, and their reporting on this has been confirmed to be correct. His birth certificate lists white parents. King has since supplied a plausible and reasonable explanation for the discrepancy. These are the facts and it seems we should stick to the facts. Adding reliably sourced and neutrally worded commentary that these questions regarding King’s race have been seen by some as an attack on the greater Black Lives Matter movement, would be perhaps a better way to address bias concerns of some of those reporting on this story, but simply sneering at or ridiculing Brietbart in the article doesn’t seem appropriate. --
BoboMeowCat (
talk)
21:04, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Then you're not looking hard enough. Breitbart is most definitely NOT a reliable source for news. And cannot be used as a source of fact for BLPs. That is definitely the consensus at BLPN. Dave Dial ( talk) 02:34, 26 August 2015 (UTC)*“Why don't you fellows head over to RSN and search 'Breitbart'...“ I did. I see critics and defenders of Brietbart.com as RS. I do not see consensus.
The claim in question is that King willfully misrepresented his racial identity. That is, at this point, false and/or discredited. No serious challenge has been made to King's accounting of his racial and ethnic makeup since he publicly refuted the attack more than a week ago, and reliable sources have universally moved on and dropped the matter. Given the highly-negative nature of the attack, we are required by policy to treat living people with respect and sensitivity. It is unfair to mention a discredited, partisan attack on King in the article's lede without immediately discussing the fact that the thrust of the attack — the claim that King lied about being biracial — is fundamentally untrue. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 16:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Several of King's classmates and friends have backed King's position. Corey Richardson, a Morehouse classmate, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, “He is black. A light-skinned black guy. That is what he is."I don't know what they're basing that on, I also don't really care. It's good enough for me. — Strongjam ( talk) 21:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Its good enough for me too. I don't think its good enough for WP:WikiVoice and ignoring WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV tho. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
"In 2015, a Brietbart reporter questioned King’s biracial identity based on his birth certificate, which lists white parents. King explained that the man listed on his birth certificate is not his biological father, clarifying that his biological father is a light-skinned black man, and King expressed concern that such questions were an attempt to distract from the Black Lives Matter movement."-- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 14:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
AP has an article that goes into that as well. — Strongjam ( talk) 17:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
King's high school attack was racial, but it wasn't a hate crime, a family member told Lemon. King's family member said the cause of the altercation was about him being a white guy dating a black girl.Lemon is CNN's reporter. That passes RS. Lastly, Trayvon Martin was shot by George Zimmerman. Many reliable sources say "white Hispanic" yet Zimmerman has verifiable Black ancestors. It seems circumstances of upbringing are relevant and if CNN's Lemon and King's family member are to be believed, it appears he grew up in a white family and perceived as a white person - which is exactly why George Zimmerman was reported as white. If he really grew up with the privileges of white, heterosexual male and he is relaying that experience as the same as what black men grew up with, the AP's assessment of credibility being an issue is spot on. -- DHeyward ( talk) 19:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Corey Richardson, also a former Morehouse classmate, was blunt [...] "He is black," said Richardson, who now lives in Chicago. “A light-skinned black guy. That is what he is[17] Other people who know him were just as direct. [18]. It's a rather exceptional claim that he's misrepresented his racial identity, and per BLP we should require exceptional proof before giving them any credence. — Strongjam ( talk) 00:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
King's birth records list his parents as white. King says the person listed on his birth certificate is not his father and he was told his father was a light skin-tone black man. A family member has said King is white while his friends say he is black. His wife has stated that he has never been untruthful about his racial identity.That's it. No need for "false" or "allegations" or other loaded terms. There is no truth to be made here by Wikipedia. No claims. Only statements. -- DHeyward ( talk) 01:58, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
the cause of the altercation was about him being a white guy dating a black girl." Those that beat him up saw him as a white guy dating a black girl according to this family member. — Strongjam ( talk) 12:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
A family member tells CNN that both of King's parents are white.[19] -- DHeyward ( talk) 16:45, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
King's birth records list his parents as white. King says the person listed on his birth certificate is not his father and he was told his father was a light skin-tone black man. A family member has said King is white while his friends say he is black. His wife has stated that he has never been untruthful about his racial identity.? CNN hasn't retracted anything about what the family member said last week. There is nothing to be stated in Wikipedia's voice since we only have statements. RSes report what multiple parties have said and make no assertions that any of them are false. Neither should we, nor should we speculate. -- DHeyward ( talk) 17:27, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
the cause of the altercation was about him being a white guy dating a black girl.". In this context he could have just meant the fight was about how people perceived King. — Strongjam ( talk) 17:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
"If reliable sources report on accusations, there's nothing wrong with Wikipedia putting in that material. If the subject disputes the allegations and that's also reported by reliable sources, we of course should put that in as well. But it remains a dispute unless reliable sources report that the claims were false. Wikipedia does not get to decide the truth of the claims. The closest the article comes to reporting on the falsity of the claims is the sentence citing The New York Daily News, but in my view it's insufficient for us to say in Wikipedia's voice that the claims are categorically false...From what I read, none of what you say is in the article, so as far as I'm concerned, it's pure WP:OR. I'm letting your comments stand, but they are clearly disruptive. Encouraging other users to edit-war based on your interpretation of policy is a dangerous thing to do. My warning is an administrative action. You can disagree with it, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to incite others to violate policy."
Query. Prior to this comment, I counted 11 mentions of "right-wing" on this Talk page, all in the context of implying either unreliability of sources or malicious behaviour by individuals. Is it Wikipedia policy that "right-wing" sources are inherently unreliable? If so, could someone please point me to the relevant policy? If not, then why should it matter? It reads to me like commenters here are simply exposing their own political bias. I'm seeing accusations about a "right-wing hit job" and "doxxing by a right-wing hack"; is there any substantiation forthcoming for the claim of 'doxxing' (are we seriously applying that term now to looking up the publicly available birth certificate of a public figure who goes by his real name)?
That said, I think a reasonable argument can be made that race is as much about physical appearance as it is about ancestry. In light of which, I find the photo of King which the Daily Kos has chosen to run with, rather ironic. 76.64.33.209 ( talk) 20:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Currently we have a bit about the scholarship but no response to it. I added a bit about it not being race-based before, but it was removed as the source didn't directly say the Oprah Winfrey scholarship isn't race based. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has a statement from Morehouse that addresses that concern directly. We should change that section to something like:
Yiannopolous questioned if King had misled Oprah Winfrey by accepting an Oprah Scholarship to Morehouse College, a historically black school. [1] A Morehouse spokesperson dismissed the claim, saying that admissions and scholarship are not race-based, and that the Oprah Winfrey Scholarship at Morehouse has always been a based on need and merit. [2]
— Strongjam ( talk) 17:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
the Oprah Winfrey Scholarship at Morehouse has been a need- and merit-based scholarship since it was first awarded 26 years ago. Recipients of any race are eligible for it if they meet the academic and financial requirements." — Strongjam ( talk) 00:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
References
His being black, white, green or blue would not have determined his admission here, it looks like they talked directly to Morehouse and aren't just reporting about what was said on twitter. — Strongjam ( talk) 21:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Remove "Morehouse dismissed the questions." They spoke broadly about admission and scholarship policies and would not comment directly on King.
As for the assertion that King lied about his race to get the Winfrey scholarship, Morehouse officials scoffed at that claim Thursday." I thought "Morehouse dismissed the questions" was a more neutral summary of that. — Strongjam ( talk) 11:39, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
other sources for Morehouse that more accurately describes what they addressedNot sure why you think that. AJC is not reporting on any tweets here. The quotes are not on even on twitter (and longer than 140 chars anyway.) The source is quite clear that Morehouse dismissed any claims about the scholarship, and we should be just as clear about that in the article. Especially as this is a BLP. — Strongjam ( talk) 23:18, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
It wasn't clear to me if we had reached consensus on including the Daily News editorial. I've posted was was in the article below. I ask that no one reintroduce the material until consensus is reached. -- Nowa ( talk) 17:31, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Have any RS done an analysis of the [http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/19/did-black-lives-matter-organiser-shaun-king-mislead-oprah-winfrey-by-pretending-to-be-biracial/ original Breitbart piece?] Has anyone confirmed, for example, that the “Jeffrey Wayne King” listed on the birth certificate is in fact the white guy pictured in the Breitbart article?-- Nowa ( talk) 18:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
NowaTo answer the core of the question, I think they have not. King ended that line on inquiry (by anyone we could use) with his response, which ended the story or further investigation.For wiki purposes, I don't think we are going to be able to develop that portion further to say if that narrow portion of the story was accurate or inaccurate (or even considered accurate or inaccurate)
The name is spelled differently as well. The patent has "Jeffrey Shaun King", the birth certificate says "Jeffery Shaun King." Don't know if his drivers license is "re" or "er" but it's another moot point. It would be interesting to know when he started using "Shaun" as his name and the story behind it for background. -- DHeyward ( talk) 21:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Having a little bit of distance from the events, it's now quite clear that the "controversy," such as it was, does not belong in a form which dominates the lede of King's biography. It is highly undue weight on a single incident, as well as recentism, focusing far too much attention on a fringe personal attack which was quickly debunked and has since entirely disappeared from mainstream reliable sources. Therefore, I've removed the discussion from the lede, but of course, have left it in the body of the article, where it certainly belongs. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 17:54, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
We go with reliable sources, and a birth certificate is considered a source that, in many cases, would be considered reliableNope. By policy here it is not a reliable source. — Strongjam ( talk) 18:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Two points. 1) regardless of the truth or untruth of the allegations, the allegations are the major source of notability for king outside of the relatively small amount people already involved in or following the BLM movement. the number of people who heard his name for the first time, and the number of words written/broadcast about him in the context of this incident, dwarf anything before. The article, and therefore the lead should reflect this weight. However both the article and lead should be written in a neutral/blp compliant manner. Any major removals or reformatting I think will certainly require an RFC given how contentious this topic is 2) specifically regarding the truth or untruth, I think it is excessive to say they are "untrue" as a fact in wiki voice, but we could certainly WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV similar analysis to someone else (either some specific notable voice, or to a WP:WEASEL "analysts/media" if there are a good number thereof. I think the NYD quote being discussed elsewhere serves well in that capacity, but there could be some better formulation too. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
I thought it might be a fruitful exercise to try an reduce the Breitbart controversy in the lede to a tweet. The best I could do was 188 180 characters.--
Nowa (
talk)
13:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I think this exercise is missing a lot of nuance, and misrepresenting the original controversy. The way the tweeted version reads, it sounds like its a debate over the one drop rule, or how we define race. The core of the allegation was that King had misrepresented his race as black, and certainly the birth certificate was used as the evidence of that argument, but the alleged misrepresentation is the "meat" of the allegation, not the fact that he was one race or another. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
The category is certainly appropriate, given his direct statements and self-identification. BLP does not permit us to ignore a person's own statements when categorizing living people. King has said this in multiple reliable sources, and absent a reliable source which refutes or disproves his own statements, the categorization must reflect them. Whether or not Breitbart's allegations are "false" or "untrue" or whatever is irrelevant. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 09:37, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the naming of the category is unfortunately confusing in this circumstance. Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
With Elizabeth Warren we do a good job of phrasing and relaying relevant racial information without making judgements. We should follow that model in this article. 161.202.72.162 ( talk) 17:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Nowa has discovered and added a reliable published source which directly, in the source's voice, states that King is biracial - that he is the son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father [20]. As there are no reliable sources which directly state that King is not biracial, this reliable source is controlling. We certainly must mention Breitbart's allegations, but these now-discredited and dropped allegations do not override the factual statement of a reliable published source. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 17:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
King is, according to Rebel Magazine, the son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American fatheris as it should be. No need to continue this tangent. 161.202.72.168 ( talk) 18:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
If the substance of Breitbart's story is to allege that King misrepresented his biracial heritage, then there is no question that King's opinion of that allegation is that it's a lie. It doesn't really matter what any of us think; we're reporting King's opinion of it, and his opinion of highly-negative claims about him is inherently notable. On the other hand, if the substance of Breitbart's story is to "ask a question about King's biracial heritage because these conservative bloggers alleged he misrepresented his heritage" then we shouldn't frame the lede as "Breitbart alleges that King misrepresented his biracial heritage," we should frame it as "these conservative bloggers alleged he misrepresented his heritage." Because the idea that King misrepresented his heritage is what is the notable issue here, if anything is notable. And King has clearly stated that any such idea is a lie.
The key is that if there wasn't a claim that King had misrepresented his heritage, literally nobody would care who his parents are, and it wouldn't have even begun to become an issue of public concern. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 21:48, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I think maybe it is time we got some additional eyes on this. Artw ( talk) 21:27, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I can't find his full birth name and birth date in our sources. Per WP:BLPPRIVACY we should only have them in the article if they have been widely published in reliable sources, or sources linked to the subject. — Strongjam ( talk) 21:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Strongjam while I understand your reasoning, that reasoning would be true for every sentence in the subsequent paragraphs. It seems to make more sense to me to have 1) allegations (and the background/sourcing for them). 2) Kings response to those allegations, 3) other peoples response to them. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:27, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
This bit:
His contributions to the website have centered around civil rights issues and violence in Ferguson, Missouri and Charleston, South Carolina as well as allegations of police brutality toward the black community.
Is sourced to a Daily Kos search result. While it's a true statement, do we have a better source for this? — Strongjam ( talk) 17:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
If we're going to cite some anonymous unnamed "family member" who apparently told someone that "King was white," we're certainly going to include this direct statement sourced to GQ: King was told by his mother he was black and has lived most of his life as black. [21] This is certainly relevant to any claim that King ever "misrepresented" his racial identity. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 08:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
stating that the man listed on his birth certificate is not his biological father, that his biological father is a "light-skinned black man" and that he was told by his mother that he was black.
Note that i arrived here summoned by a bot to the RfC, and i did just make a change to the statement in question to attribute it to King. In this edit, i added "He says that..." to the claim in question. It is his claim, and i am personally inclined to believe it, but it must be attributed so that it is not in Wikivoice. I hope this makes sense. SageRad ( talk) 13:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof I agree 100% that the source says "King was told by his mother that he was black" and that is sufficient sourcing for us to repeat that statement without regard to their own sourcing. That is not sufficient sourcing to say in wikipedia's voice that King is black (although I personally think he is). My mother told me that I could be anything I want to be, even the president. That does not mean that wikipedia can say I am going to be the president. I am somewhat surprised that in the aftermath of this kerfuffle no RS has directly made a claim on King's identity in their own voice. Here are some hypothetical versions of what we could write based on this particular source
Thank you for laying it out like that, Gaijin42. "King says that his mother told him he is black" is not too bad a statement in my book. I think there is reason to double attribute. In reality it is a double attribution. It's King's statement as reported by GQ. The source does say that "King was told by his mother that he was black" but this is in a lede text preceding an interview in which King says that in his own words, and therefore it seems obvious to me that it's King's statement that his mother told him he is black, being reported in GQ. I'm dropping this stick, but i do think it's important to be very accurate as to who says what. Wikipedia policy does not ask us to shut off our brains and be robotic in our editing. It exists for very good reason, and the spirit of the guidelines is as important as the letter of the guidelines. Anyway, enough on this point for me. In case you wonder, i'm on the side of King in this controversy and i personally see this incident as a right-wing sliming attempt to discredit the BLM movement. I do not see my contention in this instance as being harmful to King's case but actually slightly helpful. SageRad ( talk) 17:36, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
I have removed mention of the Morehouse issue; as several reliable sources noted, the question itself was ill-founded, being based entirely on a fatally-wrong understanding of the scholarship as having anything whatsoever to do with someone's race. We have no need to repeat a fatally-wrong loaded "question" whose entire premise was built on ignorance. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 21:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
161.202.72.143 ( talk) 23:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)Education is important to Oprah. That's why, in 1989, Oprah worked with Morehouse College to develop the Oprah Scholars program, which has helped pay for the education of 400 black men as they pursue careers in banking, law, medicine and many other fields.
I would remind people that this article is covered by WP:BLP and removing questionable material is not only defensible, it is mandatory. The onus is firmly on anybody seeking to include content, to achieve consensus for its inclusion. Defending Wikipedia policy does not make anyone "pro-King", and to draw battle lines on the grounds that the world is divided into pro-King and anti-King is a fallacy. It is even more dangerous to replace "King" with "Truth" in this. Guy ( Help!) 08:51, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Fun though it's been watching this trainwreck do we really need to hash out the minuate of this on this page? We're already devoting to much space to the stupid nontriversey as it is - perhaps a better place to go into detail would be on the Milo Yiannopoulos or Gamergate controversy pages? Artw ( talk) 18:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
that's excruciatingly tangential100% agree, just trying to explain the connection. — Strongjam ( talk) 19:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
the mention that Goldberg was used as one of the sources seems appropriate. The terrorism charges are sufficiently unrelated from this topic that they should be removed. Im further concerned about the troll moniker, I think we would need a good number of RS calling him such to put that in wiki voice (or include at all). Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
There are currently several statements in the article in wikivoice evaluating the allegations regarding King's family. eg "writer reported on untrue allegations" and " blogger [...] who falsely claimed King had misrepresented his biracial identity"
King's birth records list his parents as white. King says the person listed on his birth certificate is not his father and he was told his father was a light skin-tone black man. A family member has said King is white while his friends say he is black. His wife has stated that he has never been untruthful about his racial identity.That's about all we know and we attribute views to those that hold them. We don't judge their views as "false" and it's not a crime to be white, black, biracial or anything in between so there is no need to allege anything. We aren't (and shouldn't) claim anyone in the story has lied. -- DHeyward ( talk) 01:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article includes prominent mentions of recent allegations made by the Breitbart site, including over half of the lede. Is this a reasonable amount or should it be cut back? Artw ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:53, 13 September 2015
In August 2015, a Breitbart writer questioned King's biracial identity based on information from King's birth certificate, which lists white parents. King explained that the man listed on his birth certificate is not his biological father, and that his biological father is a light-skinned black man, and King expressed concern that such questions were an attempt to distract from the Black Lives Matter movement."-- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 22:40, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Collapsing totally off-topic, useless discussion
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Attacking editors who !vote for keeping the content by saying they have a nefarious agenda and referring to them as birthers is bullshit. Keep it out of the discussion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
The two reliable sources cited for King's racial heritage speak of the matter as a fact, and do not attribute it to King. Therefore, The matter is not one of POV, it is a statement of fact supported by those reliable sources. Rewriting the text supported by those sources to say "King says" is not only inaccurate, it is an intentional misrepresentation of the sources. We deal with the issue of what his birth certificate says elsewhere. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 04:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the word "Controversy" from the subheading, because the reliable sources don't support the idea that there is any significant "controversy" about this issue; there is no evidence that this involved any substantive "ongoing, prolonged public disagreement" between parties, given the fact that King and Rice's family's attorneys later collaborated on a second fundraiser. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 04:13, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure where this link should go but this piece from The Daily Beast has information that might be noteworthy. Where Did All the Money Shaun King Raised for Black Lives Go? GamerPro64 19:52, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
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I believe controversy associated with this activist isn't highlighted enough. My suggestion is to create a "controversy" section that would include the issue of his race, over thousands deleted offensive tweets and misappropriation of funds he has raised for activism.
This Daily Beast article is well written and the author provides numerous links (IRS and Fundme) and other evidence to back their research in regards to Shaun King's misappropriation of charity funds. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/16/where-did-all-the-money-shaun-king-raised-for-black-lives-go.html
This Daily Caller article provides screen-grabs of some of thousand of offensive tweets by Shaun King. (ones he later deleted) http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/07/shaun-king-scrubs-twitter-account-after-pro-gun-tweets-surface/
Majority of citation refer to newspapers with unambiguous political bias (Washington post, Daily Kos) The aforementioned additions should should make the page more politically balanced. 66.155.225.131 ( talk) 04:04, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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2602:30A:C03D:62B0:805C:94E8:16B2:BE1B (
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04:11, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
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I would like to remove where it says "African American" under the top portion where it says "Shaun King is an African American writer and civil rights activist." Shaun King has been proven not to be African American and I would request this be changed to a more accurate title.
Bruce233 (
talk)
19:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Shan King is NOT African-American — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninjaboss1313 ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
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Greetings,
Two months ago, Shaun King reached out to the Wikipedia community to make corrections to his Wikipedia page. I responded to ask what the errors were, and here is his reply:
"Thanks for addressing my concerns. My Wikipedia page has a number of errors. Could you please address them? Much of the information can be confirmed here: http://www.snopes.com/2015/08/19/shaun-king/ . Here's a list of the problems on my page:
1. Name misspelled – correct spelling: Jeffery Shaun King. It has been misspelled as Jeffrey.
2. "Early Life" - omitted information and errors:
I entered Morehouse College, a historically black college for me, in August of 1997. In March of 1999, I won the Otis Moss Oratorical Contest in front of the student body and was, a month later, elected the youngest student government president elected since 1947.
I was a Bonner Scholar - which required me to perform community service, from 1997 forward. It was as a Bonner Scholar that I performed regular community service at Frank L. Stanton Elementary School.
During my junior year at Morehouse, I had a spinal surgery stemming from the injuries I suffered when I was assaulted in high school. When I returned, I was given the Oprah Winfrey Scholarship. I didn't apply for it. It was granted to "diamonds in the rough" we were told.
3. Activism- omitted information and errors:
I have been an activist and spokesperson against injustice since 1997 - first leading rallies on the campus of Morehouse College as a student leader dealing with the sentencing disparities between crack and cocaine and later against the shooting deaths of Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell. It's how I became known as a student.
4. "Tamir Rice Fundraising"- omitted information and errors:
a. We started the fundraiser for Tamir Rice after being given direct permission & encouragement by his uncle to do so. I was told that he was the spokesperson for the family. b. We started it after we saw an interview where his mother, Samaria, said she would soon have to go to work. c. Racist trolls and bigots aimed to stop the campaign because I was a part of it. They contacted the attorney, who was confused and had the account shut down. d. Samaria Rice fired that attorney. He then petitioned the court that he be paid from the money we raised from the family and was paid from it. e. At no time did we ever have possession of the funds that were raised. f. The family and her attorneys and I have worked together many times since.
I have helped raise nearly a million for causes and families related to the Black Lives Matter Movement and have not received a dime of it.
5. High School Assault – omitted information and inaccuracies:
a. I missed nearly 18 months of school after the assault to have three spinal surgeries. b. I had fractures in my face and ribs c. I had severely damaged sinus cavities d. The worst injuries were to my lower back/spine
This one is of particular import:
e. The detective who visited me in the hospital checked a box saying I was white. That police report has been used as proof that I am white. Here is what that detective said about it in an interview :
Detective Keith Broughton, who was the officer on the scene of the alleged hate crime, told IJReview: “I believe that he’s biracial. I could just tell when I saw him. I marked him white because he’s very light complected. He was there with his white mother. My crime report there’s only two things you can check: black or white. It doesn’t say biracial…anyone from around here who knew him knew he was mixed.” (Source: http://ijr.com/2015/08/398828-witness-shaun-kings-high-school-hate-crime-shares-remembers-day/ )
Many other very essential facts are in that story pertaining to race as well.
6. Under questions regarding race:
a. The source, Milo, has been banned from Twitter for racial antagonism. b. The source, Milo, has said a dozen other disproved assertions about me that are not mentioned here. c. The source for Milo, Vicki Pate, has also been banned from Twitter for violating terms of use. d. Again, the Versailles detective, who I had never met before, said "anyone from around here who knew him knew he was mixed." My race was never a secret. It was well known, and that was in 1995. "
Can someone please make these corrections? If you would like further information or if you would like information to reach Shaun King directly, feel free to contact me by email.
Much appreciated, Gohoya ( talk) 00:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)Gohoya
Gohoya (
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00:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
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Mr. King is not African American but Caucasian. Please fix this error.
StephenHopkins53 (
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13:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Does anyone have a reliable source, a publication of his DNA test results? (Redacted) If we can neither confirm or deny anything about his race with real scientific sources as opposed to anecdotal claims, perhaps it is best to make no claims about his race, be it african-american or caucasian; just leave his race unlisted. Better to be lacking information than possibly be displaying erroneous information. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 04:39, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
I have been told for most of my life that the white man on my birth certificate is not my biological father and that my actual biological father is a light-skinned black manand in their own words
He has said that his mother is white and his father is black and that the assault fueled his passion for helping people.Both of these are couched in terms of self reporting, they are not the claims of the source themselves. I will remove the claims again until a source stating his race is provided per WP:BLP. SPACKlick ( talk) 23:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
The son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father.Your edit disregards and indeed misrepresents the content of that source, and at this point, that misrepresentation must be considered willful. Please do not change reliably-sourced text in a manner that isn't supported by those sources. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 23:54, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
]]. This topic comes up in lots of areas of guidance (see Penn State's advice to mentors). So I say again, we need at least one source claiming that Shaun is an African American as opposed to any other black identity for wikipedia to ascribe that identity to him. I suspect from his writings that he does identify that way but I can only find writings where he refers to himself as black and where he refers to his father as black and where his company is referred to as Black Owned. SPACKlick ( talk) 00:36, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
...when King's claim to being African-American was questioned in a story on Breitbart.com.24
the winner of the most creative social good campaign in 2010, was a Black-owned company.15(although it doesn't specifically say Shaun owns the company),
He publicly identified as black throughout high school, and said by the time he went to college he “had honestly moved on from even wanting to know the details of who [his mother] slept with in January of 1979.”1,
“If you have known me from when I was in elementary school at Huntertown Elementary until now, you’ve known me as black or bi-racial.”& summarising his own article
By middle school, King identified not as biracial, but as black. His friends were black, his girlfriends were black. That was it.& in their own words
As a teenager he was beaten for being black.28,
Traugott didn't want to comment on King's race,37, of breitbart
wrote in Breitbart, a conservative website, that King is not black or biracial& from a local
These rednecks beat him because he is or came off to be BLACK.& in their own voice
is there any way to conclusively figure out who's right, and whether King is black or biracial? Unfortunately, no&
even if King's family members identify as white, black, or something else, it's entirely plausible for King to identify as black or biracial&
If King isn't black or biracial, the movement may have a harder time accepting him as a leader43,
in his response to the allegation that he misrepresented his race and passed for black when he's actually white.& quoting Don Lemon
Initially, he did not answer but later referred to himself as biracial45,
Mr. King, who has long identified as black,48.
Due to lack of proper sources, it seems best to remove the claim for now. In addition to the already-changed lede this also should be accompanied with the removal from the "Personal Life" section the claim that King is the "biological son of ... an African-American father". I advise any critics that a removal of a claim is not a declaration of the polar opposite, and many BLP articles exist that do not make any claims on their subject's race. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 18:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
The article states: "Midway through his education he had to take a medical leave". One might possibly infer that the cause for being on medical leave had something to do with the fact that starting at age 17 he was undergoing a total of three spinal surgeries. It would be useful to put this information into the article, but I don't feel comfortable with the connection and would rather "stick to the source". After all the reason for medical leave could have been PTSD for all I know. Does anyone have an inkling on the reason for medical leave? It would sure help in the search for information. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 23:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
As a side note of looking into the sources from above, sources 7,8,21,22&23 appear to be no longer available, Source 27 points to a blank search page at the Daily Kos. Sources 45 and 47 point to the same article but 45 has a different apparent title. SPACKlick ( talk) 04:46, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-stand-star-spangled-banner-article-1.2770075 Is this a relevant example of his activism? I'll leave it up to someone else to add it into the article. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 03:54, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
From Reliable Sources Noticeboard: (Archive 212)
Digging around I found out that this "Rebel Magazine" is not even the Rebel Magazine we have an article on ( [38]), but instead some obscure Arizona Christian publication. A publication so non-notable that it doesn't even have an article on Wikipedia, and so poorly managed that none of their websites ( [39] [40]) are even functional (though they do have a facebook page [41]. Therefore this source should not be considered as reliable on any article, including Shaun_King_(activist) (which by the way is the only article trying to use it as a source). - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 03:16, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
after 6 days following the final comment the discussion was moved to archives.
I recommend adding information about King's latest activist project, the Injustice Boycott, described at: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-boycott-injustice-police-brutality-article-1.2812999 Robertbeal ( talk) 20:14, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Black is by definition dark. What is the meaning of describing someone as "light-skinned black man" or white-skinned black man?
He is white and identify as black, fine. The article should just state that he identifies himself as culturally black (as
Rachel Dolezal does). But pretending that white is black is a far-fetched POV.--
Onesbrief (
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23:54, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
These 'reliable sources' don't confirm that Shaun King is black, they confirm that he CLAIMS he's black. As it stands, he looks white and his biological parents are both white. The burden of proof is on King to substantiate his allegation that his birth certificate is a lie, which he could easily do with a DNA test. The fact that he's flat out refused to do so should set the matter to rest. He's another wannabe like Rachel Dolezal. 73.114.151.90 ( talk) 16:25, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Family members and classmates have stated that they understood King to be biracial growing up.
Is this seriously the standard that this website uses for evidence? People "understood" him as biracial? So that makes him biracial? So if I "understand" that gravity is false, you should take my position seriously?
In the "Personal Life" section it is claimed that "King is the biological son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father". This claim only uses two sources, one which lacks an established reputation of reliability (rebelmagazine) [ [46]], and one (Black Enterprise) which refers to TwitChange as a "black-owned business", but does not state that King is the sole owner. (In fact the same Black Enterprise in another article suggests another black man, Shelton Mercer, owns TwitChange [ [47]]). Please find better sources. - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 21:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
MSNBC correspondent Joy Reid defended King, stating that his father was in fact black, but that his biological father is not the same man who is listed on his birth certificate.The Blaze
the white man on my birth certificate is not my biological father and that my actual biological father is a light-skinned black man. ... After that day when I was first asked if I was mixed, while I was still a very young child, kids and their well-intentioned parents began telling me they knew who my black father was, that I was so and so’s cousin, etc.Daily Kos
I've redacted a BLP violation in the above post; do not use Wikipedia talk pages as places to repeat your personal opinions about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 03:20, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Read the sentence you are returning it does not say "King was raised in the knowledge/belief his father was a light skinned black man" it says "King is the biological son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father" We have no source for his father being African American, and you yourself agreed that claim would be more appropriate couched in terms of King's knowledge. I'm trying right now to find a source talking about King being raised by two white parents but I'm struggling to find one that's unambiguous, as I said above I'm sure it exists, I've read it in the last 48 hours. Till then, don't put the rubbish sentence back as is. SPACKlick ( talk) 13:56, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
irrelevant. the troll and blogger are Joshua Goldberg and Vicki Pate
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:::::::::::also you should be a lot more careful; you're dangerously skirting your topic ban on Yiannopoulos. -
75.140.253.89 (
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02:50, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
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@ NorthBySouthBaranof: you say above that we have a source that states this in its own words, which source and what is the quote? SPACKlick ( talk) 20:58, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
since NorthBySouthBaranof has repeatedly ignored all requests for identification of the source, what do we do now? Do we continue on as if he never made that comment? - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 03:33, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Having no reputation is often considered nearly as bad as having a bad reputation. No one offered any any proof of reliability, while I offered some things that suggest that their editorial judgement is a bit flawed. Where do we go from here? - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 19:58, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
The Daily Mail has interviewed his family who have stated his biological parents are white and the fight was not motivated because he was African-American but in a mixed race relationship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bgrus22 ( talk • contribs) 08:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
The Daily Mail is anonymous?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.82.230 ( talk) 03:34, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Here's how the information about King's father was treated in three sources: a less prominent and defunct online magazine (Rebel), and two prominent news organizations (Washington Post and New York Times).
2012 Rebel Magazine [51] –
2015 Washington Post [52] –
and
2015 New York Times [53]
Considering the relative weight of the above sources, and relative clearness about where the sources got the information, it looks like we should attribute the information about King's father to King, rather than to state it as a fact. --
Bob K31416 (
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13:04, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The New York Times said that King said...but removing the existing sourced statement of fact is right out. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 05:11, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Someone omitted that King's police report labels him as White during the altercation he had in 1995. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.81.22.108 ( talk) 03:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 17:23, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Shaun King (activist) → Shaun King – The activist is the Primary Topic. Page views: 600,923 vs. 40,056. Mark Schierbecker ( talk) 09:21, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
No objections based on numbers can be made. Even comparing just the Shaun King of this article against the sum of all the other Shaun Kings (and Sean, and Shawn), he still dominates the percentage of page views. The only possible argument someone could make is that the others have seniority. And I guess that Shaun Earl King is still making headlines as USF coach. 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 04:08, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
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I would like to go over minor spelling revisions and some source additions. Charles DeMange ( talk) 19:53, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
This sentence, for instance, "The money went to the organization that provided what the person's needs, not to the person individually." It makes no logical sense. I would like to change it to something more grammatical. Charles DeMange ( talk) 20:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
I have removed an edit from this page which was solely sourced to the Daily Caller, a right-wing source unuseful here except for reporting attributed opinions. That some group or another has demanded something or other from King is not particularly notable if the only source for it is a conservative house organ; people aren't generally required to answer unsolicited demands. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 05:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
There are a lot of those statements on Wikipedia, I'd like to know what arbitrary Wikipedia rule, voted on by 40 out of 30,000 members are you referring to for authority? Further, I don't think Vox or this 'Rebel magazine' are any way less biased a source than The Daily Caller, nor do I suppose such bias is relevant more than the merit of an argument or claim, everyone quoted by King or his friends are unnamed third, or fourth-hand witnesses and acquaintances of his - That is an entirely scurrilous quote, he may as well have made that up himself, who? 'someone he knows' - Unverifiable. (Redacted), - More of a question to me is why white, 21st century men want to be perceived as black? Once upon a time immigrants, Indians, blacks, mulattos and half-breeds, etc. would change their names, dress and groom themselves in such a manner and seek to appear more white, now even in relatively small-town Kentucky the cultural and racial stigma of whites, or the cultural and racial appeal and esteem of blacks results in whites affecting the dress, speech, cultural customs and politics of blacks, or at least of their perception of black culture. - If I thought for half a second that even with a hundred references such an article could survive on Wikipedia I might just right such a one.
I would like to say though, as a matter of due process and common courtesy, leaving a short explanation for a reversion, or for the removal of any content either on Wikipedia or elsewhere should be given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikkerdySplit ( talk • contribs) 14:57, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
I see that a similar edit was reverted a while ago. Another Daily Caller piece published excerpts of some Kentucky court files, including a scan of one letter that labeled King as a "16 year old Black male", with an annotation circling the word Black and script denoting "parent states this is incorrect". This is a secondary source (cited in almost 100 other articles) that is publishing primary information. Are the curators of this wiki's article stating that the court documents are fraudulent, or are they just objecting to the publication itself? 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 22:16, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Since we have to be concerned with the requirements for biographies of living persons, we need to be careful with sourcing from biased publications, especially with regards to defamatory/derogatory information. TheBlaze is considered to be biased from a right-wing POV. Therefore, if any contentious material (like is being added by Campbell301) is wished to be kept, editors seeking to add this kind of content need to find more reliable sources. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 18:27, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
What is the evidence or reference provided for King's belonging to 'African-American' categories? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikkerdySplit ( talk • contribs) 15:04, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
I've removed a cite to the Daily Caller:
Neutrality talk 05:04, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
yeah, pretty much, since the source is at best of questionable reliability and since there is an alternative better source, what exactly is the point of trying to cram it in there? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 05:08, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Smelling blood in the water, @dailycaller and @TuckerCarlson wrote this piece about me. All lies. Shaun King 8/19/2015. TDC can't be written out and quite frankly it's much better for King if they are used as a source in combination with the NYT rather than as King's adversary that get backed up by the NYT. TDC as one of the originating sources appears to be reliabe and accurate. Being backed up by the NYT should add to that but we don't take out the original source when another source substantiates what they published. At the bottom of the NYT story they even have a correction
An earlier version of this article misidentified who originally obtained a police report about an assault involving Shaun King. The report was first obtained by The Daily Caller, not Vicki Pate.-- DHeyward ( talk) 06:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Xparasite9, can you point exactly to where this consensus against its use is? Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 21:55, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
reliability has never been established for rebel magazine and no one has bothered to try to establish reliability despite that problem being pointed out a plurality of times. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&oldid=739903931 Xparasite9 ( talk) 22:30, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
What happens when all of your "approved sources" are completely biased? You have Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.207.237 ( talk) 14:54, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Meh. Sources say whatever the citor says they say as long as other editors don't check, don't care, or are aligned with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.82.230 ( talk) 04:25, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
I have reverted these edits on several grounds. Firstly, to state that it was merely a "belief" does not comport with the source, which states that King's mother told him of that fact. Secondly, the source cited for the police officer section does not state that people who knew him knew him as biracial "because of his physical appearance" - that's simply not supported by the source. Thirdly, to source that King has written about his experiences as a biracial person is trivial to source and should not be removed - if you think it needs a source, tag it as such, or doc it yourself, as I have just done. Thanks. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 21:46, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
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"King grew up in Versailles, Kentucky. He was raised by his white mother and white adoptive father, Jeffrey King. King grew up" should be changed to "King grew up in Versailles, Kentucky. He was raised by his white mother. King grew up..."
There is no evidence to support that Jeffrey King is not Shaun King's father, let alone his "adoptive" father. Unless there is evidence out there to support otherwise, Jeffrey King is listed on his birth certificate and no where does it say he's his ADOPTIVE father. I think that line should be removed and changed to the proposed one above. Swreynolds7 ( talk) 16:16, 1 August 2017 (UTC) Swreynolds7 ( talk) 17:04, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
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jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (
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21:20, 1 August 2017 (UTC)What consensus am I missing? The page is inaccurate and needs to be fixed, as stated above. Jeffrey King is not his adoptive Father, rather the Father that is listed on his birth certificate. Whether or not the mother had an extramarital affair is not relevant - his birth certificate says Jeffrey King is his father. If that is not enough evidence then just remove the adoptive portion all-together as we can agree that it is false. Swreynolds7 ( talk) 14:52, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
As of August 2017, Shaun King is no longer a writer for the NY Daily News. He also has not appeared on the Young Turks webcast since at least May 2017, leading to speculation that he has left his position there as well. He is currently a writer for the Fair Punishment Project at Harvard University. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mascan42 ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
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Shaun King is a white man Elijah541 ( talk) 14:20, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Shaun King (American football) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:30, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Shaun King → Shaun King (activist) – The activist's prominence has dwindled over the past year and is no longer the unquestionable Primary Topic he was this time last year. Page views: 56,151 vs. 32,893. Additionally requesting the default Shaun King page to be a disambiguation redirect, though I'm not sure how to formally do that. -- Xparasite9 ( talk) 20:53, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
Per WP:CATV, Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. The article and the sources attribute King's race claims to King himself, and only says about the classmates that they "understood King to be biracial growing up" which doesn't support King's race at all. If the sources don't explicitly state that King is African-American, then per WP:CATDEF: A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having, the categories should be removed. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) wumbolo ^^^ 22:32, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/05/21/texas-police-address-sherita-dixon-cole-arrest-controversy/ and http://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article211734544.html - deserves a paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1300:16E:E979:3587:9A54:ED60 ( talk) 18:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
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Include the story of Shaun King pushing for vigilante justice on the Texas Trooper who was unjustly accused of sexual assault by a DWI driver.
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/05/23/she-said-she-was-raped-by-a-state-trooper-his-camera-footage-shows-otherwise/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cd8fa67d7c7e Brotato42 ( talk) 05:13, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Article contains this statement regarding Jazmine’s shooting: 7-year old Barnes was killed in a drive-by shooting in Houston at 7 a.m. December 30, 2019. Obviously that is an error. The year was 2018. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.140.172.47 ( talk) 11:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I've added two tags to the article, POV and Overly Detailed.
POV - Significant slant in King's favor. Phrasing bolstering King's responses where in other articles, the subject's personal responses (on social media or elsewhere) are ommitted or given far less weight.
Overly detailed - e.g. reason for becoming a pastor (subject is known as activist, other activities are not as relevant), recent car accident, etc.
I.am.a.qwerty ( talk) 03:17, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
In 2015, conservative media outlets published multiple pieces seeking to discredit King's account of the assault.[11] Conservative outlets, citing interviews with the investigating detective Keith Broughton and police reports on the case, reported that the fight was a one-on-one between King and another boy over a girl and that the injuries were minor.[10] Keith Broughton, the investigating detective, said he interviewed multiple witnesses, including a teacher who broke up the fight, who characterized the fight as a one-on-one altercation.[10]
This is almost never how information is reported on in Wikipedia... these "conservative outlets" aren't publishing opinion pieces about Shaun King's alleged assault, or if they do it is not being added to this Wikipedia article. Therefore it is irrelevant what their political leaning is, the only thing being written about here is the interview of the detective and the police reports. Prefacing these statements of fact with "conservative outlets" is seeking to discredit what's being written.
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Please add the following text to the "Fundraising Controversies" section after the sentence, "He wrote an editorial explaining the purpose of taking legal action and addressed some specific critiques levied against him." The text is to be inserted as below:
On August 31, 2019, a 72 page financial audit report prepared by a team of experts in justice reform, tax law, finance and accounting, and compliance was released. The team examined King's financial materials from fundraisers promoted through his social media accounts, Real Justice PAC, and Action PAC. Additionally, a review of King's full tax returns for 2013-2017 was performed and compared to his public fundraising from 2014-2019. King also granted the team full unlimited access to checking accounts, savings accounts, credit cards, retirement accounts, and money management software. In the report, the Financial Review Board concluded, "In short, we find absolutely no evidence that Shaun has ever inappropriately accessed any funds that he has raised. We searched and we asked. Not one single family, charity, cause or campaign said Shaun was ever compensated, directly, or indirectly, for his online fundraising. In fact, it appears that with the exception of his compensation through Real Justice PAC, Shaun has received zero compensation for the fundraising he promoted. The exhaustive documentation to substantiate our findings, including every statement from every family and attorney, can be found below." To support this conclusion, a breakdown of financial appropriations from King's fundraisers demonstrated how the $34.5 M total funds raised since the Black Lives Matter movement began has been appropriated.
[1] Nthenry08 ( talk) 07:33, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
References
this proposition seems unsupported:
"Family members and classmates have stated that they understood King to be biracial growing up. [1] [2]"
First of all, those citations do not seem to say that anywhere?
Second of all, what "family members" plural? I did see something from his wife elsewhere on web, but nothing else. Nothing from his brothers, the late Jason King and veteran/electrician Russ King. Nothing from his mother. Nothing from Jeffrey Wayne King, man listed as father on his birth certificate.
Third of all, we would need a citation for this "friends said" assertion, if we can find one.
Why does this sentence remain on Wikipedia? Bhdshoes2 ( talk) 23:59, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
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this article needs to draw attention to the whole reason this man became famous, by pretending to be a different race than he actually is 2600:1700:34B0:1520:2974:9296:B332:F8E6 ( talk) 22:28, 5 January 2021 (UTC)