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Shadowrun's basic system does make it possible to create almost any kind of character you'd like in the Sixth World, but if you're looking to play characters that aren't Shadowrunners, you really have to work to get out from under the Shadowrun paradigm. As an example of what I mean, I tried to GM a game where the player characters were all members of a Sioux tribe that were under pressure from the Tribal council to leave thier land, and were effectively being forced out. It didn't work out as well as I would have liked simply because we all, players and I both, had a hard time getting out of the "we're all shadowrunners" mind-set. Let's face it, the character generation system definately leads into making that type of character. A good first step out of that setting would be to create an entirely new Skills set, one that expresses the type of characters you'd like in your game. It helped tremendously with my game. ~Tim 15:38, 18 January 2006
Shadowrun used to encourage charater types other than the now-prevalent criminals and mercenaries - Rockers, Detectives, etc [admittedly, inspired by CP 2020 and others]. Shadowrun used to be a world to explore and full of different peoples, but has degenerated to a game where anything other than crims'n'mercs are discouraged. 193.243.227.1 09:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned by the original commenter, the rules don't really cater for anything beyond the crims'n'mercs type game. It used to have Tribal characters as viable archetypes [not least because AmerIndian culture was a very big part of SR].
To say that characters beyond mercs'n'crims are possible within the rules as long as you're willing and able to write such rules from scratch and provide information and background to bring them to anything like the level of the crims'n'mercs is 1) agreeing there's a problem, as those options, skills and background should be available 2) is like saying any word is the same as another - since using the alphabet, you can create any word you like.
Also, considering that cyberpunk is a genre and encompasses all sorts of characters and archetypes and plots [archetypes: mercenaries, soldiers, policemen, doctors, scientists, hackers, athletes, drivers, pilots, children, mutants, robots, jounalists, poets, superheroes, martial artists, tribals, pirates, corporates - plots: love, honour, vengence, revenge, theft, murder, investigation, gathering knowledge, unearthing secrets, stealth] SR is redefining cyberpunk to mean gun/spell/martial arts/metalware toting mercs'n'crims.
Every other cyberpunk rpg available offers more varied characters and archetypes than SR does.
Also, Bugglegum Crisis is generally seen as a template or archetypal cyberpunk manga and has someone mixing her music career with Boomer hunting and Hardsuit wearing, a junior police officer mixing her job with hacking and Hardsuit wearing, a corporate/shop owner with PR work and Hardsuit wearing - definitely more than just mercs'n'crims.
193.243.227.1 11:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with this proposed merger. If you merge that in then you need to have any future Shadowrun specific items in this article and it will get too large. The page is already getting large and some bits need splitting off. Maybe move it into a Races of Shadowrun article with the rest of the race information off the main page, but don't put it into the main article. Ben W Bell 08:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Below is the content from the Seretech article. I made it into a redirect here because it does not appear to need its own article. I suggest incorporating it into this article or one of its sub articles, if it has any. -- Kjkolb 13:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence is in the article:
First of all, I didn't know that there were other cyberpunk roleplaying games. If so, then some of this text should link to a category of such games, or if there are very few, link to individual games. If you are including any of the universal RPGs in the cyberpunk category, then those will also support magic. This is just a request for a repair. Val42 17:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I realize how important the 4th Edition notes are, because it's so different from previous editions, so would it also be helpful to include changes in the other editions in their own sections? (2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, or an Edition History like the D&D article) I don't know all the changes between 2nd and 3rd editions. -- 70.142.40.34 17:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I changed the part about Otaku and Technomancers. Otaku could get cyber, they just ran the Matrix without the Cyberdeck that deckers did. Also added notes about Resonance and how the Matrix is blending more with their magic system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.230.10 ( talk) 15:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to upload this larger cover image? [1] I don't know if it's acceptable under Wikipedia's copyright policy (or what low-resolution means), but there's already a large version of the 3rd edition cover. -- 70.143.33.216 02:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
guys, I have a request. My English is too poor and wiki skills to lame, but Findley did very much for Shadowrun. If you don't know - he's dead (died in 2004 iirc). Could anybody be so kind and made an entry about him? TIA -- mattness 20:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The Seventh World is due to begin on April 4, 7137 AD. Has anybody done any stories or scenarios set at or near this date? Would anybody have any interest in such scenarios? The Seventh World would end in about the year 12,263 AD. Is there any interest in scenarios set in that year?
I'm not volunteering, I'm just wondering. Thanks.
:)--
NotWillDecker 17:01 18 August 2006
Does anyone have an info on this game by the makers of Heroclix? I understand it was similar to other clix games but used action figure sized figures rather than 30 mm ministure size. It would great to see a little on this added to the article. - Waza 23:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
It's funny, unless it's a joke. I just killed the links to Paul Hume and Tom Dowd in the infobox, because apparently, those links led to music personlities, not RPG designers. Now, I wonder if both homonyms having bios as noteworthy figures in the world of music, one as a journalist and scholar, the other as an engineer and producer is a coincidence, of if somebody made a bad joke or what. If anybody who knows enough about the Shadowrun authors to make a bio, or add the RPG related stuff to the article of the musicians if in fact it was really them, that would be appreciated. My own knowledge on the matter being quite insufficient. -- Svartalf 10:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The MMORPG project Shadowrun-Online is not listed in the article because of a few reasons:
Please do not re-add the site in the links section until there is any light at the end of the tunnel. As much as I would love to see and play a Shadowrun MMO, Shadowrun-Online is not a game or even a game in development and doesn't merit being listed in the Wikipedia. EvilCouch 13:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Link to Shadowrun: Awakened removed. Any notes as to why?
In both cases Shadowrun Online and Shadowrun Awakened, the projects are just not notable enough to be included. I realize that the WP guideline is generally meant for whether an article is notable, but it is a good guideline for this issue as well. If any of these independent projects were covered in reliable sources, then it would be appropriate to include them as specific links. As it is, a line in the computer game section mentioning that there are fan-based independent projects to develop a MMORPG would be fine, but no one of them is notable enough to link to. For the record I would love for one of them to succeed, but that is a different concern than what goes in an encyclopedia article. — MJBurrage • TALK • 09:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
When Shadowrun was written in the late 1980's, FASA named their gun company Ares. In real life Ares is a gun company, co-founded—and still run at the time—by the inventor of the M-16 and one of the most famous gun-designers in the world. This is an obvious homage, and my link was only there to inform other Shadowrun fans of this piece of trivia. Even if you do not believe it is a deliberate homage, it is still an interesting coincidence worth pointing out. Hence the link I put in the article. — MJBurrage • TALK • 05:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking for a quote I saw once pertaining to Shadowrunning. I don't recall who said it or the exact wording, but it was to the effect that as your run was ending, someone else's was just starting, and you might be the target. Can anyone clarify this a bit? Grendelthorns 14:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
In see also section I saw link to Echo Chernik. Maybe it's worth to make full listy of people which contributed in Shadowrun developement?
-mattness
Interpreted strictly, a product with "positive sales" has sold at least one copy. So saying "sales are positive" can work as a wry geekily-humorous way of saying that you can't say anything better about sales. But mostly, it's a marketing term that means absolutely nothing while trying to engender positive feelings about a product. Whether humorous or marketing-speak, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article, so I have removed it.
However, sales numbers are quite relevant. Traditionally, it's been almost impossible to get numbers on quantities sold, placed in the context of the market, for RPGs. If anyone can find a source for that kind of information (i.e. something that could be referenced), it would be nice to have it in the article. Things like sizes of print runs could also be useful. Does anyone have any leads? Ichoran 13:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- deus_sociologicus 13:55, 28 Oct 2007
I don't see Ral Partha figurines in this box (they were made for paper RPG, but produced by other company than FASA). I couldn't find info about Grenadier series (it was made by RalPartha?) - maybe SR fans could explain it on wikipedia? Thanks in advance.
mattness —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.148.137 ( talk) 16:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see a novel /significant game features section in this article. The features that make shadowrun stand out from the competition. When I first started playing SR way back when 1st ed came out, what really captured my imagination was the fusion of magic and cyberpunk, and also significantly the advancing timeline concept.
Initially at first, this was fairly formally a 1 year-per-year concept, keeping SR 61 always years in the future. (FASA / FanPro later departed from this and jumped forward several time increments). Significantly, it allowed for the publisher to include game world plot development within their rules supplements as an effective hook for sales growth and repeat business. I remember anxiously awaiting the next supplement to see what was changing, and what the fallout was from previous game world developments. The quality of creativity was also very high.
While I obviously haven't played every game in the world, this stands out to me as a fairly novel and unique feature. In my opinion it's worth including as a standout feature of the game, along with other ones (eg the relatively flat cap of character skills, compared to the exponential style of D&D)
PS - The Earthdawn / Shadowrun crossover was acknowledged but never officially sanctioned. They had two separate marketable product lines that they didn't want to cross-contaminate. In essence: Guidance from developers in response to questions was that Earthdawn was the deep backstory and we were allowed to use it for formation of concepts, but that no Wormskull / other horror was ever going to pop from Aztechnology in an official supplement (Damnit!). This may have been retconned out with the sale of the Earthdawn product line to another developer.
-Martin Gotthard 220.253.165.90 ( talk) 15:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
One editor recently commented that much of the article takes place with in-game POV. But, when one is describing, at length, a fictional game, to do otherwise seems hideously awkward to me. I assume that the fiction guidelines are there so that it is clear that fictional material is fictional, and to maintain constant style. However, unlike in many fictional works, there is a clear "now" and "past" in the Shadowrun game, so I think that using present tense throughout is confusing. (It is, of course, important that it be clear that the content is all regarding a fictional game.) I invite alternate points of view! Ichoran ( talk) 16:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay this link www.s-run.com has been added and removed many many times over the history of this article. Most recently it has been added by the person who runs said community and has been removed (mainly by myself) as being spamming promotion for their own site. Now they have mentioned the following on their talk page.
Ben, you obviously did not look into what the #S-Run Community is. The channel #s-run on undernet was formed over 10 years ago as a branch-off of the Dumpshock IRC community over creative differences between administrators. Since I inherited channel admin duties 6 years ago, we have become the largest and most active IRC-based Shadowrun communtiy in the entire world. We run Shadowrun games at least 4 nights out of the week, and have GM's hailing from around the globe. Not even Dumpshock has the amount of IRC traffic and Shadowrun game-playing activity that we pull on a nightly basis.
Also, as far as encyclopedic content goes, the 'Shadowrun Datafile' contains adventures, mods, alternate rulesets, shadowrun-related programs, information on movies and music based-on or related to Shadowrun, and plenty more. The community has also been the only one to subtitle and release german-language Shadowrun fan films (winners of the official contest, no less) to the english-speaking public.
We may not have the massive amount of content available on some other sites, but our focus is also on getting more and more people to PLAY the game -- instead of just discussing it in forums. As illustrated, our contributions to the Shadowrun fanbase are nothing to scoff at, and I believe we have every right to be included on the wikipedia external links page. My posting the link is not for promotion, but to inform hungry players worldwide that an extremely-active Shadowrun gaming community is available to them 24/7.
Thanks for your time and I hope to hear back from you soon.
J. Daigle (SuperFly), April 17, 2007, 03:43am CST
So the question is, should this site be one of the allowed links? Community? Ben W Bell talk 09:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
A few years back I placed a link for The Shadowrun Proboards however today I noticed it had been removed. It's a play by post site and contains basic info for Chargen and active discussions.
Why was it removed? Note, I am not the sites owner.
CrimsonD ( talk) 02:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
As this debate happened years ago, I do not have access to that account. The #S-Run Community link has just as much value to the online Shadowrun community as Dumpshock does, because it has been the place to find real-time text-based Shadowrun gaming as opposed to the "Play By Post" option.
I will not go into too much detail over the removal of the link from the Shadowrun page; however, you should consult earlier entries in the Discussions page ((namely S-Run link) of this wiki as it has been addressed in the past by an administrator of wikipedia. The verdict of that dispute was that the #S-Run Community site belongs there just as much as, say, Dumpshock. The link is not an advertisement for a site, just as the Dumpshock link is not an advertisement -- but a valuable resource for online roleplayers.
The #S-Run Gaming Community is a long-standing Shadowrun hub for gamers who *cannot find groups in real life* to play the game online, live, via IRC -- and a valuable resource for over a decade now (going on year 13 this October). The CHANNEL alone sees 1/3 to 1/4th the traffic of ENTIRE IRC NETWORKS devoted to *every RPG* -- and its focus is on Shadowrun alone. As the issue of the #S-Run link has been addressed in the past (and only removed again because hosting was lost for a time), I will continue to post the link until further notice.
Thank you for your concern and vigilance in these matters, but I believe I am (and have been confirmed to be) fully within the wikipedia policy rights to display it.
-The SuperFly (Owner & Administrator of #S-Run) Solorunner ( talk) 02:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Multiple external links to fan sites were recently removed by another editor, and said removal has been questioned above.
To address the fundamental question What is wrong with fan site links?
How many links do we allow? If we limit it to say, four, which four? By what criteria?
The answer in general—as with article inclusion—is notability. If reliable sources have discussed the site than its inclusion would be reasonable.
If any of the sites in question are as good as their moderaters and users say they are, than such citations should exist.
—
MJBurrage(
T•
C)
08:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Just in case anyone is unaware, we do have a style guideline that concerns which external links and how many are suitable for most articles. I haven't examined the links in question here enough to venture an informed opinion, but this could be useful reading for anyone unfamiliar with it. Lankiveil ( speak to me) 09:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC).
Simple fact of the matter that S-Run is not encyclopaedic, and adds no encyclopaedic content. It is a site, in your own words, for players to play Shadowrun online. Wikipedia is not a find a player site, or a community centre. The S-Run site adds zero value to the article. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a Shadowrun posting board or a collection of links related to a topic. Dumpshock is relevant as this is the de-facto official board for Shadowrun, where official answers to questions are regularly posted to people by Shadowrun developers and line staff. All people have argued here is that S-Run is a fansite that allows online gaming, sorry but that is not encyclopaedic or relevant for addition to Wikipedia. Canterbury Tail talk 11:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
If you place sub titles telling the reader of wikipedia what the site they are going to is, that there is no such thing as too many links. ie. Play by post sites, general shadowrun universe information sites, Also you should remember that you can get information from Play by post sites, people log on all the time asking how to run a shadowrun game. This means that the people on the play by post game can answer their questions and they can look in on games and see how to run a game. Since Shadowrun is a RPG, how to run a game is information people are looking for too. Scawire ( talk) 21:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
You can hide behind your rules all you want but we see this for it really is. It's nothing less then a shameless attempt to keep shadowrun "in the family" as it were. Regardless of what a site has on it, every site deserves to put on the wiki. Either allow all sites or no sites. If they want a link to Dumpshock then let them put it on the product page. Third party sites bring just as much to the table as a dev run site.
CrimsonD ( talk) 04:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, another take on this. It is a fansite, it does not add to the page, so it fails the external links guideline and we don't even have to discuss using it as a source. Some arguments I see here, are generally of the what about page X type. In short, that another site is here is not a reason to include this (it might be a reason to remove the other one!), that this site is mentioned on another site is a case for the inclusion policy of that site, but it fails the inclusion policy of this site. As Canterbury Tail questioned above: what does this site add to Wikipedia, that is the question that needs to be answered. Bringing in ops from the site, or whatever is not going to help, more people that are somehow affiliated with the site do not bring more weight. Consider asking some regulars from a suitable WikiProject to reflect their ideas. Thanks. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 12:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Given the current article and the content of the external websites, both s-run and dumpshock should be removed per WP:EL. Past history of the EL section isn't a factor. The ELs need to meet the guidelines today or have consensus today that an exception is required for some reason. UncleDouggie ( talk) 09:01, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
(unindent)Wow, ok, I saw a request for another set of eyes over at WP:ELN. Wikipedia is not here to connect people to games via external links, because wikipedia is not a social networking site. Wikipedia normally is not a place to put links to fansites/forums. The exception are those by a recognized authority and are notable. This exception is meant to be very limited. I believe this link fails to meet this exception, particularly at this point here. I'm sorry, but I would say the link (S-Run) should be left off. JoeSmack Talk 22:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I've taken this to the Admin noticeboard to have some other neutral eyes look over this. Canterbury Tail talk 22:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
All right, we've had a decent amount of opinions churning over the past few days and I'd like to summarize as best as I can about where we stand and what we can do from this point.
Points of interest
Possible actions Each option in this list is intended to be separate from the others. i.e. supporting one does not mean that you cannot support another. If one of the proposals would be amenable to you if it were modified, please state so in your opinion brief. If you have a reasoned opinion (for or against) one or more of the inclusions, please state so and why. For those that have not participated in a Wikipedia consensus discussion, the traditional etiquette is to voice your opinion (Support or Oppose), with any possible modifiers to clarify your opinion (e.g. Strong or Weak). Examples: Strong support and Weak oppose. Please indent opinions to the right of the possible actions and comments to the right of opinions. Remember: this is not a vote. Opinions need to include reasons. EvilCouch ( talk) 02:41, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Include Dumpshock
Include S-Run
Include a different external link
For many years, the Dumpshock Forum ( http://forums.dumpshock.com/) was the de facto official board for Shadowrun (enough so that it was mentioned as such in the published game books). However, since 2010 there has been an actual official board, hosted by the publisher ( http://forums.shadowrun4.com/). This effectively replaces Dumpshock as an official source of information about the game and game world. I just noticed that another editor has updated the external links accordingly, but thought confirmation of the reason for the change here was appropriate given the past discussion. — MJBurrage( T• C) 17:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
In section "Fourth edition changes", we state:
However, "drek" is not a made-up cuss word, it is a real world Yiddish cuss-word. It literally means "faeces"; see List of English words of Yiddish origin. -- 202.63.39.58 ( talk) 09:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
"The most noticeable difference between the Matrix in the 2070s and the earlier editions is that wireless technology has become completely ubiquitous." The meaning of this claim is unclear, as there is no such thing as incomplete ubiquity. The statement should be clarified with examples and proper English usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.157.102 ( talk) 04:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Let's step through the changes I made. 1) The current (at this moment) main Shadowrun book is set in 2072 because of when it was published. They're not going to come out with a main book every year, nobody would buy them that frequently (since most of it wouldn't change). As you can see at http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/gamemasters.shtml the official stance is that the game is set 65 years in the future. 2) I mention the extraterritoriality that megacorporations have. "Ok, they have armies," someone new to Shadowrun might think, "But the government can always roll in and enforce the law, right?" Nope. 3) This is Shadowrun and yet the main intro doesn't even mention cyberware, bioware, or magic? Those are practically the cornerstones of the Shadowrun world. You're right, though the "obviously" isn't encyclopedic, I'll take it out. 4) I defined "shadowrun" as "missions undertaken by deniable assets". 5) I deleted the "sinless" reference. Sin, to most people, means an act that violated a morale rule. Most SINless Shadowrunners sin all the time, so I thought that an explanation of what a SIN was should wait until later in the article when it could be explained in more depth. 6) Likewise, the "chance of a new life" doesn't quite mean what people completely unfamiliar with Shadowrun might presume it means, so I took it out. 7) I also felt that a discussion on PC/GM dynamics should be preserved for later in the article, given the wide variety of possible scenarios for a Shadowrun adventure. Banaticus ( talk) 06:24, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Look at the books themselves:
Originally Shadowrun (under FASA) was set at +61 years, Fourth Edition (under FanPro) was +65, but since then (under CGL) it has been +63. One website that has not been corrected since FanPro wrote it does not change all the books published since then. — MJBurrage( T• C) 17:26, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
There's a bit in the discussion of the 4th edition mechanics about them being "not coincidentally" similar to the new World of Darkness system. This seems, as far as I can tell, a baseless assumption.
Similarly, under "Influences", there is a connection made between the faux swearing of Shadowrun and Battlestar Galactica which also seems to have been made without any evidence to back it up. For example, the universe of Judge Dredd also has similar terminology, and as a whole is a much closer match to the setting of Shadowrun than BSG is.
Both of these strike me as original research, and should probably be changed. Kelvingreen ( talk) 11:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
The following line states: "In 2011, the end of the Mayan Long Count ushers in the 'Sixth World'..." The end of the Mayan Long Count is 2012. Is this a mistake on the writers part or is it an error on the wiki page. I haven't played the game for a few years, and I remember that 2011 was indeed the year of the Awakening, but I don't specifically remember the reference in relation to the end of the Mayan Long Count calendar. Livingston 09:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
According to the Mayan Calendar (and lots of tabloids), the world will end on December 21, 2012. It’s part a 5,200 year cycle of death and rebirth that, in Shadowrun, actually charts the ebb and flow of magic from the Earth. So, on 12/21/12 magic will return, end this world, and wreak holy havoc while starting the next. Aboriginal cultures, who maintained their mystical traditions, are the first to feel the return of magic and use their newfound power to reshape the political, financial, and physical world around them. As the magic increases, Elf and Dwarf babies are born to very surprised parents who carry the right combination of long-dormant genes. But all of these events pale in comparison to the horror of "goblinization", which painfully reshapes the teenage bodies of those unlucky enough to carry dominant Ork or Troll genes. And then the first Great Dragon rises from its 5,200 yearlong hibernation and circles over Tokyo, signaling that the world has truly AWAKENED.
The 21 December 2012 date is not universally agreed upon by the experts, it is just the most agreed on now. Back in the 1970s and 1980s the most agreed upon date was 24 December 2011. Popular examples of the 2011 date include: Rod Serling in the 1975 documentary “The Outer Space Connection, Leonard Nimoy in the 1978 documentary “In Search of Mayan Mysteries”, and of course Shadowrun (every version published to date) — MJBurrage( T• C) 19:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
The source for the older correlation date is apparently Michael D. Coe; according to one website, the following is from the 1966 edition of his book The Maya:
The idea of cyclical creations and destructions is a typical feature of Mesoamerican religions, as it is of Oriental. The Aztec, for instance, thought that the universe had passed through four such ages, and that we were now in the fifth, to be destroyed by earthquakes. The Maya thought along the same lines, in terms of eras of great length, like the Hindu kalpas. There is a suggestion that each of these measured 13 baktuns, or something less than 5,200 years, and that Armageddon would overtake the degenerate peoples of the world and all creation on the final day of the thirteenth. Thus, following the Thompson correlation, our present universe would have been created in 3113 BC, to be annihilated on December 24, 2011, when the Great Cycle of the Long Count reaches completion
So it looks like researchers adjusted the Mayan–Gregorian calender correlation sometime in the 1990s, which shifted the presumed end date from 2011 to 2012. Until a published Shadowrun game or book changes the date, we should leave the 2011 date in the article. — MJBurrage( T• C) 19:47, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
@ Canterbury Tail Regarding this, the image looked fine to me. Anything 100% canon will be copyrighted, so it's just the question of whether we allow fan art or not. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:04, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
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Shadowrun's basic system does make it possible to create almost any kind of character you'd like in the Sixth World, but if you're looking to play characters that aren't Shadowrunners, you really have to work to get out from under the Shadowrun paradigm. As an example of what I mean, I tried to GM a game where the player characters were all members of a Sioux tribe that were under pressure from the Tribal council to leave thier land, and were effectively being forced out. It didn't work out as well as I would have liked simply because we all, players and I both, had a hard time getting out of the "we're all shadowrunners" mind-set. Let's face it, the character generation system definately leads into making that type of character. A good first step out of that setting would be to create an entirely new Skills set, one that expresses the type of characters you'd like in your game. It helped tremendously with my game. ~Tim 15:38, 18 January 2006
Shadowrun used to encourage charater types other than the now-prevalent criminals and mercenaries - Rockers, Detectives, etc [admittedly, inspired by CP 2020 and others]. Shadowrun used to be a world to explore and full of different peoples, but has degenerated to a game where anything other than crims'n'mercs are discouraged. 193.243.227.1 09:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned by the original commenter, the rules don't really cater for anything beyond the crims'n'mercs type game. It used to have Tribal characters as viable archetypes [not least because AmerIndian culture was a very big part of SR].
To say that characters beyond mercs'n'crims are possible within the rules as long as you're willing and able to write such rules from scratch and provide information and background to bring them to anything like the level of the crims'n'mercs is 1) agreeing there's a problem, as those options, skills and background should be available 2) is like saying any word is the same as another - since using the alphabet, you can create any word you like.
Also, considering that cyberpunk is a genre and encompasses all sorts of characters and archetypes and plots [archetypes: mercenaries, soldiers, policemen, doctors, scientists, hackers, athletes, drivers, pilots, children, mutants, robots, jounalists, poets, superheroes, martial artists, tribals, pirates, corporates - plots: love, honour, vengence, revenge, theft, murder, investigation, gathering knowledge, unearthing secrets, stealth] SR is redefining cyberpunk to mean gun/spell/martial arts/metalware toting mercs'n'crims.
Every other cyberpunk rpg available offers more varied characters and archetypes than SR does.
Also, Bugglegum Crisis is generally seen as a template or archetypal cyberpunk manga and has someone mixing her music career with Boomer hunting and Hardsuit wearing, a junior police officer mixing her job with hacking and Hardsuit wearing, a corporate/shop owner with PR work and Hardsuit wearing - definitely more than just mercs'n'crims.
193.243.227.1 11:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with this proposed merger. If you merge that in then you need to have any future Shadowrun specific items in this article and it will get too large. The page is already getting large and some bits need splitting off. Maybe move it into a Races of Shadowrun article with the rest of the race information off the main page, but don't put it into the main article. Ben W Bell 08:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Below is the content from the Seretech article. I made it into a redirect here because it does not appear to need its own article. I suggest incorporating it into this article or one of its sub articles, if it has any. -- Kjkolb 13:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence is in the article:
First of all, I didn't know that there were other cyberpunk roleplaying games. If so, then some of this text should link to a category of such games, or if there are very few, link to individual games. If you are including any of the universal RPGs in the cyberpunk category, then those will also support magic. This is just a request for a repair. Val42 17:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I realize how important the 4th Edition notes are, because it's so different from previous editions, so would it also be helpful to include changes in the other editions in their own sections? (2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, or an Edition History like the D&D article) I don't know all the changes between 2nd and 3rd editions. -- 70.142.40.34 17:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I changed the part about Otaku and Technomancers. Otaku could get cyber, they just ran the Matrix without the Cyberdeck that deckers did. Also added notes about Resonance and how the Matrix is blending more with their magic system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.230.10 ( talk) 15:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to upload this larger cover image? [1] I don't know if it's acceptable under Wikipedia's copyright policy (or what low-resolution means), but there's already a large version of the 3rd edition cover. -- 70.143.33.216 02:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
guys, I have a request. My English is too poor and wiki skills to lame, but Findley did very much for Shadowrun. If you don't know - he's dead (died in 2004 iirc). Could anybody be so kind and made an entry about him? TIA -- mattness 20:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The Seventh World is due to begin on April 4, 7137 AD. Has anybody done any stories or scenarios set at or near this date? Would anybody have any interest in such scenarios? The Seventh World would end in about the year 12,263 AD. Is there any interest in scenarios set in that year?
I'm not volunteering, I'm just wondering. Thanks.
:)--
NotWillDecker 17:01 18 August 2006
Does anyone have an info on this game by the makers of Heroclix? I understand it was similar to other clix games but used action figure sized figures rather than 30 mm ministure size. It would great to see a little on this added to the article. - Waza 23:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
It's funny, unless it's a joke. I just killed the links to Paul Hume and Tom Dowd in the infobox, because apparently, those links led to music personlities, not RPG designers. Now, I wonder if both homonyms having bios as noteworthy figures in the world of music, one as a journalist and scholar, the other as an engineer and producer is a coincidence, of if somebody made a bad joke or what. If anybody who knows enough about the Shadowrun authors to make a bio, or add the RPG related stuff to the article of the musicians if in fact it was really them, that would be appreciated. My own knowledge on the matter being quite insufficient. -- Svartalf 10:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The MMORPG project Shadowrun-Online is not listed in the article because of a few reasons:
Please do not re-add the site in the links section until there is any light at the end of the tunnel. As much as I would love to see and play a Shadowrun MMO, Shadowrun-Online is not a game or even a game in development and doesn't merit being listed in the Wikipedia. EvilCouch 13:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Link to Shadowrun: Awakened removed. Any notes as to why?
In both cases Shadowrun Online and Shadowrun Awakened, the projects are just not notable enough to be included. I realize that the WP guideline is generally meant for whether an article is notable, but it is a good guideline for this issue as well. If any of these independent projects were covered in reliable sources, then it would be appropriate to include them as specific links. As it is, a line in the computer game section mentioning that there are fan-based independent projects to develop a MMORPG would be fine, but no one of them is notable enough to link to. For the record I would love for one of them to succeed, but that is a different concern than what goes in an encyclopedia article. — MJBurrage • TALK • 09:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
When Shadowrun was written in the late 1980's, FASA named their gun company Ares. In real life Ares is a gun company, co-founded—and still run at the time—by the inventor of the M-16 and one of the most famous gun-designers in the world. This is an obvious homage, and my link was only there to inform other Shadowrun fans of this piece of trivia. Even if you do not believe it is a deliberate homage, it is still an interesting coincidence worth pointing out. Hence the link I put in the article. — MJBurrage • TALK • 05:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking for a quote I saw once pertaining to Shadowrunning. I don't recall who said it or the exact wording, but it was to the effect that as your run was ending, someone else's was just starting, and you might be the target. Can anyone clarify this a bit? Grendelthorns 14:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
In see also section I saw link to Echo Chernik. Maybe it's worth to make full listy of people which contributed in Shadowrun developement?
-mattness
Interpreted strictly, a product with "positive sales" has sold at least one copy. So saying "sales are positive" can work as a wry geekily-humorous way of saying that you can't say anything better about sales. But mostly, it's a marketing term that means absolutely nothing while trying to engender positive feelings about a product. Whether humorous or marketing-speak, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article, so I have removed it.
However, sales numbers are quite relevant. Traditionally, it's been almost impossible to get numbers on quantities sold, placed in the context of the market, for RPGs. If anyone can find a source for that kind of information (i.e. something that could be referenced), it would be nice to have it in the article. Things like sizes of print runs could also be useful. Does anyone have any leads? Ichoran 13:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- deus_sociologicus 13:55, 28 Oct 2007
I don't see Ral Partha figurines in this box (they were made for paper RPG, but produced by other company than FASA). I couldn't find info about Grenadier series (it was made by RalPartha?) - maybe SR fans could explain it on wikipedia? Thanks in advance.
mattness —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.148.137 ( talk) 16:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see a novel /significant game features section in this article. The features that make shadowrun stand out from the competition. When I first started playing SR way back when 1st ed came out, what really captured my imagination was the fusion of magic and cyberpunk, and also significantly the advancing timeline concept.
Initially at first, this was fairly formally a 1 year-per-year concept, keeping SR 61 always years in the future. (FASA / FanPro later departed from this and jumped forward several time increments). Significantly, it allowed for the publisher to include game world plot development within their rules supplements as an effective hook for sales growth and repeat business. I remember anxiously awaiting the next supplement to see what was changing, and what the fallout was from previous game world developments. The quality of creativity was also very high.
While I obviously haven't played every game in the world, this stands out to me as a fairly novel and unique feature. In my opinion it's worth including as a standout feature of the game, along with other ones (eg the relatively flat cap of character skills, compared to the exponential style of D&D)
PS - The Earthdawn / Shadowrun crossover was acknowledged but never officially sanctioned. They had two separate marketable product lines that they didn't want to cross-contaminate. In essence: Guidance from developers in response to questions was that Earthdawn was the deep backstory and we were allowed to use it for formation of concepts, but that no Wormskull / other horror was ever going to pop from Aztechnology in an official supplement (Damnit!). This may have been retconned out with the sale of the Earthdawn product line to another developer.
-Martin Gotthard 220.253.165.90 ( talk) 15:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
One editor recently commented that much of the article takes place with in-game POV. But, when one is describing, at length, a fictional game, to do otherwise seems hideously awkward to me. I assume that the fiction guidelines are there so that it is clear that fictional material is fictional, and to maintain constant style. However, unlike in many fictional works, there is a clear "now" and "past" in the Shadowrun game, so I think that using present tense throughout is confusing. (It is, of course, important that it be clear that the content is all regarding a fictional game.) I invite alternate points of view! Ichoran ( talk) 16:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay this link www.s-run.com has been added and removed many many times over the history of this article. Most recently it has been added by the person who runs said community and has been removed (mainly by myself) as being spamming promotion for their own site. Now they have mentioned the following on their talk page.
Ben, you obviously did not look into what the #S-Run Community is. The channel #s-run on undernet was formed over 10 years ago as a branch-off of the Dumpshock IRC community over creative differences between administrators. Since I inherited channel admin duties 6 years ago, we have become the largest and most active IRC-based Shadowrun communtiy in the entire world. We run Shadowrun games at least 4 nights out of the week, and have GM's hailing from around the globe. Not even Dumpshock has the amount of IRC traffic and Shadowrun game-playing activity that we pull on a nightly basis.
Also, as far as encyclopedic content goes, the 'Shadowrun Datafile' contains adventures, mods, alternate rulesets, shadowrun-related programs, information on movies and music based-on or related to Shadowrun, and plenty more. The community has also been the only one to subtitle and release german-language Shadowrun fan films (winners of the official contest, no less) to the english-speaking public.
We may not have the massive amount of content available on some other sites, but our focus is also on getting more and more people to PLAY the game -- instead of just discussing it in forums. As illustrated, our contributions to the Shadowrun fanbase are nothing to scoff at, and I believe we have every right to be included on the wikipedia external links page. My posting the link is not for promotion, but to inform hungry players worldwide that an extremely-active Shadowrun gaming community is available to them 24/7.
Thanks for your time and I hope to hear back from you soon.
J. Daigle (SuperFly), April 17, 2007, 03:43am CST
So the question is, should this site be one of the allowed links? Community? Ben W Bell talk 09:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
A few years back I placed a link for The Shadowrun Proboards however today I noticed it had been removed. It's a play by post site and contains basic info for Chargen and active discussions.
Why was it removed? Note, I am not the sites owner.
CrimsonD ( talk) 02:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
As this debate happened years ago, I do not have access to that account. The #S-Run Community link has just as much value to the online Shadowrun community as Dumpshock does, because it has been the place to find real-time text-based Shadowrun gaming as opposed to the "Play By Post" option.
I will not go into too much detail over the removal of the link from the Shadowrun page; however, you should consult earlier entries in the Discussions page ((namely S-Run link) of this wiki as it has been addressed in the past by an administrator of wikipedia. The verdict of that dispute was that the #S-Run Community site belongs there just as much as, say, Dumpshock. The link is not an advertisement for a site, just as the Dumpshock link is not an advertisement -- but a valuable resource for online roleplayers.
The #S-Run Gaming Community is a long-standing Shadowrun hub for gamers who *cannot find groups in real life* to play the game online, live, via IRC -- and a valuable resource for over a decade now (going on year 13 this October). The CHANNEL alone sees 1/3 to 1/4th the traffic of ENTIRE IRC NETWORKS devoted to *every RPG* -- and its focus is on Shadowrun alone. As the issue of the #S-Run link has been addressed in the past (and only removed again because hosting was lost for a time), I will continue to post the link until further notice.
Thank you for your concern and vigilance in these matters, but I believe I am (and have been confirmed to be) fully within the wikipedia policy rights to display it.
-The SuperFly (Owner & Administrator of #S-Run) Solorunner ( talk) 02:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Multiple external links to fan sites were recently removed by another editor, and said removal has been questioned above.
To address the fundamental question What is wrong with fan site links?
How many links do we allow? If we limit it to say, four, which four? By what criteria?
The answer in general—as with article inclusion—is notability. If reliable sources have discussed the site than its inclusion would be reasonable.
If any of the sites in question are as good as their moderaters and users say they are, than such citations should exist.
—
MJBurrage(
T•
C)
08:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Just in case anyone is unaware, we do have a style guideline that concerns which external links and how many are suitable for most articles. I haven't examined the links in question here enough to venture an informed opinion, but this could be useful reading for anyone unfamiliar with it. Lankiveil ( speak to me) 09:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC).
Simple fact of the matter that S-Run is not encyclopaedic, and adds no encyclopaedic content. It is a site, in your own words, for players to play Shadowrun online. Wikipedia is not a find a player site, or a community centre. The S-Run site adds zero value to the article. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a Shadowrun posting board or a collection of links related to a topic. Dumpshock is relevant as this is the de-facto official board for Shadowrun, where official answers to questions are regularly posted to people by Shadowrun developers and line staff. All people have argued here is that S-Run is a fansite that allows online gaming, sorry but that is not encyclopaedic or relevant for addition to Wikipedia. Canterbury Tail talk 11:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
If you place sub titles telling the reader of wikipedia what the site they are going to is, that there is no such thing as too many links. ie. Play by post sites, general shadowrun universe information sites, Also you should remember that you can get information from Play by post sites, people log on all the time asking how to run a shadowrun game. This means that the people on the play by post game can answer their questions and they can look in on games and see how to run a game. Since Shadowrun is a RPG, how to run a game is information people are looking for too. Scawire ( talk) 21:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
You can hide behind your rules all you want but we see this for it really is. It's nothing less then a shameless attempt to keep shadowrun "in the family" as it were. Regardless of what a site has on it, every site deserves to put on the wiki. Either allow all sites or no sites. If they want a link to Dumpshock then let them put it on the product page. Third party sites bring just as much to the table as a dev run site.
CrimsonD ( talk) 04:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, another take on this. It is a fansite, it does not add to the page, so it fails the external links guideline and we don't even have to discuss using it as a source. Some arguments I see here, are generally of the what about page X type. In short, that another site is here is not a reason to include this (it might be a reason to remove the other one!), that this site is mentioned on another site is a case for the inclusion policy of that site, but it fails the inclusion policy of this site. As Canterbury Tail questioned above: what does this site add to Wikipedia, that is the question that needs to be answered. Bringing in ops from the site, or whatever is not going to help, more people that are somehow affiliated with the site do not bring more weight. Consider asking some regulars from a suitable WikiProject to reflect their ideas. Thanks. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 12:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Given the current article and the content of the external websites, both s-run and dumpshock should be removed per WP:EL. Past history of the EL section isn't a factor. The ELs need to meet the guidelines today or have consensus today that an exception is required for some reason. UncleDouggie ( talk) 09:01, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
(unindent)Wow, ok, I saw a request for another set of eyes over at WP:ELN. Wikipedia is not here to connect people to games via external links, because wikipedia is not a social networking site. Wikipedia normally is not a place to put links to fansites/forums. The exception are those by a recognized authority and are notable. This exception is meant to be very limited. I believe this link fails to meet this exception, particularly at this point here. I'm sorry, but I would say the link (S-Run) should be left off. JoeSmack Talk 22:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I've taken this to the Admin noticeboard to have some other neutral eyes look over this. Canterbury Tail talk 22:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
All right, we've had a decent amount of opinions churning over the past few days and I'd like to summarize as best as I can about where we stand and what we can do from this point.
Points of interest
Possible actions Each option in this list is intended to be separate from the others. i.e. supporting one does not mean that you cannot support another. If one of the proposals would be amenable to you if it were modified, please state so in your opinion brief. If you have a reasoned opinion (for or against) one or more of the inclusions, please state so and why. For those that have not participated in a Wikipedia consensus discussion, the traditional etiquette is to voice your opinion (Support or Oppose), with any possible modifiers to clarify your opinion (e.g. Strong or Weak). Examples: Strong support and Weak oppose. Please indent opinions to the right of the possible actions and comments to the right of opinions. Remember: this is not a vote. Opinions need to include reasons. EvilCouch ( talk) 02:41, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Include Dumpshock
Include S-Run
Include a different external link
For many years, the Dumpshock Forum ( http://forums.dumpshock.com/) was the de facto official board for Shadowrun (enough so that it was mentioned as such in the published game books). However, since 2010 there has been an actual official board, hosted by the publisher ( http://forums.shadowrun4.com/). This effectively replaces Dumpshock as an official source of information about the game and game world. I just noticed that another editor has updated the external links accordingly, but thought confirmation of the reason for the change here was appropriate given the past discussion. — MJBurrage( T• C) 17:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
In section "Fourth edition changes", we state:
However, "drek" is not a made-up cuss word, it is a real world Yiddish cuss-word. It literally means "faeces"; see List of English words of Yiddish origin. -- 202.63.39.58 ( talk) 09:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
"The most noticeable difference between the Matrix in the 2070s and the earlier editions is that wireless technology has become completely ubiquitous." The meaning of this claim is unclear, as there is no such thing as incomplete ubiquity. The statement should be clarified with examples and proper English usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.157.102 ( talk) 04:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Let's step through the changes I made. 1) The current (at this moment) main Shadowrun book is set in 2072 because of when it was published. They're not going to come out with a main book every year, nobody would buy them that frequently (since most of it wouldn't change). As you can see at http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/gamemasters.shtml the official stance is that the game is set 65 years in the future. 2) I mention the extraterritoriality that megacorporations have. "Ok, they have armies," someone new to Shadowrun might think, "But the government can always roll in and enforce the law, right?" Nope. 3) This is Shadowrun and yet the main intro doesn't even mention cyberware, bioware, or magic? Those are practically the cornerstones of the Shadowrun world. You're right, though the "obviously" isn't encyclopedic, I'll take it out. 4) I defined "shadowrun" as "missions undertaken by deniable assets". 5) I deleted the "sinless" reference. Sin, to most people, means an act that violated a morale rule. Most SINless Shadowrunners sin all the time, so I thought that an explanation of what a SIN was should wait until later in the article when it could be explained in more depth. 6) Likewise, the "chance of a new life" doesn't quite mean what people completely unfamiliar with Shadowrun might presume it means, so I took it out. 7) I also felt that a discussion on PC/GM dynamics should be preserved for later in the article, given the wide variety of possible scenarios for a Shadowrun adventure. Banaticus ( talk) 06:24, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Look at the books themselves:
Originally Shadowrun (under FASA) was set at +61 years, Fourth Edition (under FanPro) was +65, but since then (under CGL) it has been +63. One website that has not been corrected since FanPro wrote it does not change all the books published since then. — MJBurrage( T• C) 17:26, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
There's a bit in the discussion of the 4th edition mechanics about them being "not coincidentally" similar to the new World of Darkness system. This seems, as far as I can tell, a baseless assumption.
Similarly, under "Influences", there is a connection made between the faux swearing of Shadowrun and Battlestar Galactica which also seems to have been made without any evidence to back it up. For example, the universe of Judge Dredd also has similar terminology, and as a whole is a much closer match to the setting of Shadowrun than BSG is.
Both of these strike me as original research, and should probably be changed. Kelvingreen ( talk) 11:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
The following line states: "In 2011, the end of the Mayan Long Count ushers in the 'Sixth World'..." The end of the Mayan Long Count is 2012. Is this a mistake on the writers part or is it an error on the wiki page. I haven't played the game for a few years, and I remember that 2011 was indeed the year of the Awakening, but I don't specifically remember the reference in relation to the end of the Mayan Long Count calendar. Livingston 09:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
According to the Mayan Calendar (and lots of tabloids), the world will end on December 21, 2012. It’s part a 5,200 year cycle of death and rebirth that, in Shadowrun, actually charts the ebb and flow of magic from the Earth. So, on 12/21/12 magic will return, end this world, and wreak holy havoc while starting the next. Aboriginal cultures, who maintained their mystical traditions, are the first to feel the return of magic and use their newfound power to reshape the political, financial, and physical world around them. As the magic increases, Elf and Dwarf babies are born to very surprised parents who carry the right combination of long-dormant genes. But all of these events pale in comparison to the horror of "goblinization", which painfully reshapes the teenage bodies of those unlucky enough to carry dominant Ork or Troll genes. And then the first Great Dragon rises from its 5,200 yearlong hibernation and circles over Tokyo, signaling that the world has truly AWAKENED.
The 21 December 2012 date is not universally agreed upon by the experts, it is just the most agreed on now. Back in the 1970s and 1980s the most agreed upon date was 24 December 2011. Popular examples of the 2011 date include: Rod Serling in the 1975 documentary “The Outer Space Connection, Leonard Nimoy in the 1978 documentary “In Search of Mayan Mysteries”, and of course Shadowrun (every version published to date) — MJBurrage( T• C) 19:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
The source for the older correlation date is apparently Michael D. Coe; according to one website, the following is from the 1966 edition of his book The Maya:
The idea of cyclical creations and destructions is a typical feature of Mesoamerican religions, as it is of Oriental. The Aztec, for instance, thought that the universe had passed through four such ages, and that we were now in the fifth, to be destroyed by earthquakes. The Maya thought along the same lines, in terms of eras of great length, like the Hindu kalpas. There is a suggestion that each of these measured 13 baktuns, or something less than 5,200 years, and that Armageddon would overtake the degenerate peoples of the world and all creation on the final day of the thirteenth. Thus, following the Thompson correlation, our present universe would have been created in 3113 BC, to be annihilated on December 24, 2011, when the Great Cycle of the Long Count reaches completion
So it looks like researchers adjusted the Mayan–Gregorian calender correlation sometime in the 1990s, which shifted the presumed end date from 2011 to 2012. Until a published Shadowrun game or book changes the date, we should leave the 2011 date in the article. — MJBurrage( T• C) 19:47, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
@ Canterbury Tail Regarding this, the image looked fine to me. Anything 100% canon will be copyrighted, so it's just the question of whether we allow fan art or not. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:04, 19 April 2023 (UTC)