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Should this article be turned into a disambiguation page? We could move the content of this article to Passover Seder, and have this page say something like this:
I have done that. E=MC^2 T@alk
Many scholars believe that the Seder has been deeply influenced by the Greek culture in which Jews lived at the time. Some even hold that the Seder is a Jewish form of a Greek symposium.
Baruch M. Bokser The origins of the seder : the Passover rite and early rabbinic Judaism University of California Press, 1984, ISBN: 0520050061
Bokser Baruch M., Ritualizing the Seder, Jounal of the American Academy of Religion 56/1988, S.443-471.
Jonathan Brumberg-Kraus, "'Not by Bread Alone...' Food and Drink in the Rabbinic Seder and in the Last Supper," special issue of Semeia 86: Food and Drink in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament (ed. by Athalya Brenner and Jan Willem van Henten; 1999), 154-179 and Memorable Meals: Symposia in Luke’s Gospel, The Rabbinic Seder and the Greco-Roman Literary Tradition (forthcoming).
Henry A. Fischel, ed., Essays In Greco-Roman And Related Talmudic Literature (selected with a prolegomenon by [the editor]; New York: KTAV, 1976
Siegfried Stein, The Influence of Symposium Literature on the Literary form of the Pesah Haggadah Journal of Jewish Studies 8 (1957) pp. 13-44.
Joseph Tabory, “Towards a History of the Paschal Meal,” in Passover and Easter: Origin and History to Modern Times (Two Liturgical Traditions v.5; ed. Paul Bradshaw and Lawrence Hoffman; Notre Dame, IN: Notre Dame, 1999) pp.62-80.
The following is an excerpt from "Meals as Midrash: A Survey of Ancient Meals in Jewish Studies Scholarship" by Jonathan Brumberg-Kraus, Wheaton College, MA, ©2002.
The section on Miriam's Cup seems a little off... It doens't cite any references, seems to be a new inclusion (20 years ago insteady of 3,000) and has the ring of 'Things Made Up at School One Day'. Can anyone verify? 99.246.148.42 ( talk) 03:00, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I can't believe this is still here. "Miriam's ritual" is not a part of the Seder, any more than "Adam's ritual", or "Egbert's ritual" is. This is just made up. It's not Passover. It's barely Passoverish. Passover is not a video game or theatrical performance. It's an ancient ritual, and this is not even close to being a legitimate part of it. AdamJRichards ( talk) 17:28, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
It is conspicuously lacking - in fact, the question "When was the first seder?" seems to make some Jews uncomfortable. Is it the case that some rabbis, sometime, decided that Jews should commemorate annually their exit from Egypt?
There is mention above on this page, but nothing in the article. Bokser's study is never mentioned. He dates the earliest reference to about 200 C.E.
How have the seder and haggadah evolved between their origin and their present celebration(s)? deisenbe ( talk) 15:55, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
The date in 2020 is incorrect. Seder will be on 8th of April 2020. Something with the calculation wrong. Elisoft007 ( talk) 17:49, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
My calendar says this year it's the evening of April 19, article says 20.-- Exjerusalemite ( talk) 16:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC) Looks like an inaccurate module is used to calculate the dates in the infobox. if there's no objection, i will edit the infobox and manually enter the correct dates.-- Exjerusalemite ( talk) 22:10, 1 April 2019 (UTC) I agree. The Gregorian date shown in the infobox is a day late every year. Please can somebody edit this. I don't know how to edit the module that is used for this calculation but that would be better than putting in dates manually, as it would auto-update every year. I guess this is to do with seder being in the evening, so the module is working out the Gregorian date for 15th Nisan, and then assuming seder is in the evening of that date rather than the evening of the date before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.27.183.190 ( talk) 11:55, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
While Samaritans do observe Passover, they do not conduct a seder. They gather to sacrifice and roast the lambs, and then they have a meal together, but not within a structured ritual The Inkling 00:03, 6 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by YourCaptMorgan ( talk • contribs)
If you're honest you'll check the citations for the anti-Jewish rant, and you'll have realized that they all go to original writing or to sources that cite original writing. A lot of their links don't even exist. You make anti-Jewish rhetoric part of this article, witness the first and last lines, but when I remove it, you put it back. You don't even justify it. I have to go to ridiculous lengths to get you to notice that this is not only offensive, it's entirely made up. It's not fact; it's eyewitness reports, unverifiable claims, and known exaggerations. It's not Jewish. It isn't even for Jews; we weren't invited. Read it: the ten plagues are the ones that affect women, not everybody, ostensibly because of our racial tradition of homophobia. Since when does a word-game that excludes half the Jewish population because "the Jews are homophobic" qualify as a bona-fide Jewish ritual? Check the sources they cite. See where they lead. You have allowed someone nameless to arbitrarily and inappropriately associate our religion with homophobia and misogyny, solely on the basis of a holy day in which...please read carefully...homophobia and misogyny run counter to the content of the myth. There isn't any misogyny or homophobia in the story; not a shred. Old translations with too literal a bent have long since been replaced with friendlier wording, but the story, the tradition, is not prejudicial in any way. We don't even say "He" or "Lord" in our Haggadot; we say "Sovereign". What misogyny are they fighting? Jews didn't burn gays at the annual bonfire, or make them into slaves; we just made them keep quiet about it because they're embarassing to Mama. Every Jew knows that homosexuals came right after Jews on the Nazi hate list; we remind ourselves of it in every seder. What homophobia do you find in that?
How can it not be politics to include such charges in a page about a Jewish ritual to which they manifestly do not apply? It's not part of it, and the anger those particular feminists justify their cultural theft with is not against Passover, it's against Jews. Passover is not meant as a time of rejection, but there are no citations I can "prove" that with, it being a family word-of-mouth tradition and considered common knowledge (more than five reliable citations in a particular search). We aren't misogynistic or homophobic, and a 3000 year-old myth hardly qualifies as justification for criticism of modern Jewry.
We leave the door open to Elijah, because he is is the ghost of the prophet of the poor and humble, and leaving the door open for Elijah is an invitation to all who feel the jackboot of oppression. Once the door is open, it is pure mitzvah to welcome anyone who enters. If a hungry person, or a slave, or just a person needing respite, walk, runs, or crawls through that door, he or she is granted a place at the table, gratefully and honestly, even if you must be enemies tomorrow.
Made-up research about made-up opinions citing made-up evidence linked to made-up sources, or sources who cite the sources who cite them, about an event 14 people claim to have participated in but which had no public expression, and whose word and affectionate memories are themselves no more than a reflection of their own, read...own, opinions...you're most definitely not qualified to moderate here. Unless, of course, you show up at our family seder and follow Elijah in, to remind us how homophobic and misogynistic we Jews are, including, of course, my wife and my mother. Rules of citation: you may not cite other people's opinions as evidence, because they were not evidence until you cited them. It's called a citation-go-round, and every scholar knows about it. Other people's politics have nothing to do with the Passover Seder, and changing the words of the story doesn't remove cultural copyright, and injecting your opinions of Jews into this article says a lot about you. Putting it back says more.
You know why this is anonymous? Because you erased my account last year when I brought this up. You asked and received your annual donation, and then I suddenly wasn't there anymore. If you take charity from me, you really shouldn't ban me the day after. Racism is racism, and it isn't sacred racism because someone wrote it on your website. There isn't much point in giving you some no-accountability alias like LordFloppie, because I don't hide my opinions behind a false front. With your fake name, you don't take personal responsibility commensurate with your editorial power. You can sign me Adam J. Richards of St Catharines, Ontario, before you erase me. If I don't get this taken down now, I'll get it taken down later, one way or the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:5A57:2100:0:0:0:1D0 ( talk) 21:18, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Passover Seder article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Should this article be turned into a disambiguation page? We could move the content of this article to Passover Seder, and have this page say something like this:
I have done that. E=MC^2 T@alk
Many scholars believe that the Seder has been deeply influenced by the Greek culture in which Jews lived at the time. Some even hold that the Seder is a Jewish form of a Greek symposium.
Baruch M. Bokser The origins of the seder : the Passover rite and early rabbinic Judaism University of California Press, 1984, ISBN: 0520050061
Bokser Baruch M., Ritualizing the Seder, Jounal of the American Academy of Religion 56/1988, S.443-471.
Jonathan Brumberg-Kraus, "'Not by Bread Alone...' Food and Drink in the Rabbinic Seder and in the Last Supper," special issue of Semeia 86: Food and Drink in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament (ed. by Athalya Brenner and Jan Willem van Henten; 1999), 154-179 and Memorable Meals: Symposia in Luke’s Gospel, The Rabbinic Seder and the Greco-Roman Literary Tradition (forthcoming).
Henry A. Fischel, ed., Essays In Greco-Roman And Related Talmudic Literature (selected with a prolegomenon by [the editor]; New York: KTAV, 1976
Siegfried Stein, The Influence of Symposium Literature on the Literary form of the Pesah Haggadah Journal of Jewish Studies 8 (1957) pp. 13-44.
Joseph Tabory, “Towards a History of the Paschal Meal,” in Passover and Easter: Origin and History to Modern Times (Two Liturgical Traditions v.5; ed. Paul Bradshaw and Lawrence Hoffman; Notre Dame, IN: Notre Dame, 1999) pp.62-80.
The following is an excerpt from "Meals as Midrash: A Survey of Ancient Meals in Jewish Studies Scholarship" by Jonathan Brumberg-Kraus, Wheaton College, MA, ©2002.
The section on Miriam's Cup seems a little off... It doens't cite any references, seems to be a new inclusion (20 years ago insteady of 3,000) and has the ring of 'Things Made Up at School One Day'. Can anyone verify? 99.246.148.42 ( talk) 03:00, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I can't believe this is still here. "Miriam's ritual" is not a part of the Seder, any more than "Adam's ritual", or "Egbert's ritual" is. This is just made up. It's not Passover. It's barely Passoverish. Passover is not a video game or theatrical performance. It's an ancient ritual, and this is not even close to being a legitimate part of it. AdamJRichards ( talk) 17:28, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
It is conspicuously lacking - in fact, the question "When was the first seder?" seems to make some Jews uncomfortable. Is it the case that some rabbis, sometime, decided that Jews should commemorate annually their exit from Egypt?
There is mention above on this page, but nothing in the article. Bokser's study is never mentioned. He dates the earliest reference to about 200 C.E.
How have the seder and haggadah evolved between their origin and their present celebration(s)? deisenbe ( talk) 15:55, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
The date in 2020 is incorrect. Seder will be on 8th of April 2020. Something with the calculation wrong. Elisoft007 ( talk) 17:49, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
My calendar says this year it's the evening of April 19, article says 20.-- Exjerusalemite ( talk) 16:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC) Looks like an inaccurate module is used to calculate the dates in the infobox. if there's no objection, i will edit the infobox and manually enter the correct dates.-- Exjerusalemite ( talk) 22:10, 1 April 2019 (UTC) I agree. The Gregorian date shown in the infobox is a day late every year. Please can somebody edit this. I don't know how to edit the module that is used for this calculation but that would be better than putting in dates manually, as it would auto-update every year. I guess this is to do with seder being in the evening, so the module is working out the Gregorian date for 15th Nisan, and then assuming seder is in the evening of that date rather than the evening of the date before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.27.183.190 ( talk) 11:55, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
While Samaritans do observe Passover, they do not conduct a seder. They gather to sacrifice and roast the lambs, and then they have a meal together, but not within a structured ritual The Inkling 00:03, 6 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by YourCaptMorgan ( talk • contribs)
If you're honest you'll check the citations for the anti-Jewish rant, and you'll have realized that they all go to original writing or to sources that cite original writing. A lot of their links don't even exist. You make anti-Jewish rhetoric part of this article, witness the first and last lines, but when I remove it, you put it back. You don't even justify it. I have to go to ridiculous lengths to get you to notice that this is not only offensive, it's entirely made up. It's not fact; it's eyewitness reports, unverifiable claims, and known exaggerations. It's not Jewish. It isn't even for Jews; we weren't invited. Read it: the ten plagues are the ones that affect women, not everybody, ostensibly because of our racial tradition of homophobia. Since when does a word-game that excludes half the Jewish population because "the Jews are homophobic" qualify as a bona-fide Jewish ritual? Check the sources they cite. See where they lead. You have allowed someone nameless to arbitrarily and inappropriately associate our religion with homophobia and misogyny, solely on the basis of a holy day in which...please read carefully...homophobia and misogyny run counter to the content of the myth. There isn't any misogyny or homophobia in the story; not a shred. Old translations with too literal a bent have long since been replaced with friendlier wording, but the story, the tradition, is not prejudicial in any way. We don't even say "He" or "Lord" in our Haggadot; we say "Sovereign". What misogyny are they fighting? Jews didn't burn gays at the annual bonfire, or make them into slaves; we just made them keep quiet about it because they're embarassing to Mama. Every Jew knows that homosexuals came right after Jews on the Nazi hate list; we remind ourselves of it in every seder. What homophobia do you find in that?
How can it not be politics to include such charges in a page about a Jewish ritual to which they manifestly do not apply? It's not part of it, and the anger those particular feminists justify their cultural theft with is not against Passover, it's against Jews. Passover is not meant as a time of rejection, but there are no citations I can "prove" that with, it being a family word-of-mouth tradition and considered common knowledge (more than five reliable citations in a particular search). We aren't misogynistic or homophobic, and a 3000 year-old myth hardly qualifies as justification for criticism of modern Jewry.
We leave the door open to Elijah, because he is is the ghost of the prophet of the poor and humble, and leaving the door open for Elijah is an invitation to all who feel the jackboot of oppression. Once the door is open, it is pure mitzvah to welcome anyone who enters. If a hungry person, or a slave, or just a person needing respite, walk, runs, or crawls through that door, he or she is granted a place at the table, gratefully and honestly, even if you must be enemies tomorrow.
Made-up research about made-up opinions citing made-up evidence linked to made-up sources, or sources who cite the sources who cite them, about an event 14 people claim to have participated in but which had no public expression, and whose word and affectionate memories are themselves no more than a reflection of their own, read...own, opinions...you're most definitely not qualified to moderate here. Unless, of course, you show up at our family seder and follow Elijah in, to remind us how homophobic and misogynistic we Jews are, including, of course, my wife and my mother. Rules of citation: you may not cite other people's opinions as evidence, because they were not evidence until you cited them. It's called a citation-go-round, and every scholar knows about it. Other people's politics have nothing to do with the Passover Seder, and changing the words of the story doesn't remove cultural copyright, and injecting your opinions of Jews into this article says a lot about you. Putting it back says more.
You know why this is anonymous? Because you erased my account last year when I brought this up. You asked and received your annual donation, and then I suddenly wasn't there anymore. If you take charity from me, you really shouldn't ban me the day after. Racism is racism, and it isn't sacred racism because someone wrote it on your website. There isn't much point in giving you some no-accountability alias like LordFloppie, because I don't hide my opinions behind a false front. With your fake name, you don't take personal responsibility commensurate with your editorial power. You can sign me Adam J. Richards of St Catharines, Ontario, before you erase me. If I don't get this taken down now, I'll get it taken down later, one way or the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:5A57:2100:0:0:0:1D0 ( talk) 21:18, 22 November 2021 (UTC)